The Art of Manliness - #634： How to Design Conversations That Matter

00:00:00.000 I'll see you next time.

00:00:30.000 He draws on his background of design to show how he can use the principles of design thinking to improve the quality of our exchanges.

00:00:35.820 Daniel and I kick off our discussion by unpacking the defaults of conversation people often fall back on.

00:00:40.180 And then Daniel compares the structure of conversation to an operating system.

00:00:43.640 And we turn to how we can improve this conversational OS, beginning with the way we invite people into a conversation with us and why we shouldn't just ask, hey, can we talk?

00:00:50.680 We then get into how we can improve the interface of our conversations by recognizing the influence that space and place have on them and choosing the right environment for particular dialogue.

00:00:58.600 And we end our conversation with the options you have for responding when it's your turn to talk and how to deal with the gaffes we all make during conversations and the feelings of regret that frequently follow.

00:01:07.360 After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash conversation design.

00:01:11.060 All right, Daniel Stillman, welcome to the show.

00:01:20.880 Thanks for having me, Brad.

00:01:22.260 I'm stoked, really.

00:01:24.340 So you're a designer who went to industrial school and now you help people and companies apply the principles of design thinking that can be used to design products.

00:01:32.640 It's even designing better conversations.

00:01:35.300 And one of the first things that design thinkers do is figure out the default ways humans use a product, a service, a system.

00:01:42.920 Let's apply this to conversations.

00:01:45.060 What are some of the defaults of conversation that may not be working for people?

00:01:50.040 Yeah, so first of all, I struggled with this in writing my book because I really want people to be reflective practitioners of their conversations.

00:02:00.200 Because most of us can't remember learning how to talk.

00:02:02.700 You might remember learning how to play chess and maybe you got better at it and you learned some strategies.

00:02:07.380 I think most of us are working with a patched together system like we're magpies.

00:02:13.800 We saw something that we thought worked, and so we copied that and maybe it worked for us.

00:02:20.020 So I think we're flying blind with a bunch of duct tape over the thing.

00:02:24.400 So I think it's really up to everyone else to ask themselves, what do I want?

00:02:28.440 Is what I'm doing working?

00:02:30.380 And if it is, don't change anything.

00:02:32.580 Go read another book, man.

00:02:33.600 Live your best life.

00:02:35.320 It's not to say that there is a right and a wrong way to do it.

00:02:38.240 But I think generally speaking, in group dialogues, which I spend a lot of time on, and also I think with self-talk, we jump to conclusions.

00:02:47.420 We tend to go from a question to an answer as quickly as possible.

00:02:53.560 And that's because I think one of the defaults, at least in the Western way of thinking, is we don't like to sit with silence.

00:03:02.680 We don't like to sit with uncertainty.

00:03:05.260 We'd like to have certainty.

00:03:07.180 Before we started recording, we talked about, what's my response to stress?

00:03:11.820 Get her done.

00:03:12.460 Let's put our nose down.

00:03:13.500 Let's get back to work.

00:03:14.940 And so sitting in silence with the question of, what should I be doing, is not comfortable for us.

00:03:20.620 So I think if there's one default I would change, it's just amp up our comfort with silence or sitting with a question a little bit longer.

00:03:30.720 Another is, a lot of conversations are ping-pong matches.

00:03:34.420 We have that question of like, well, what should we do about X?

00:03:37.200 And somebody says, we should do this.

00:03:38.580 And that is usually the same person in a group.

00:03:41.340 There's usually somebody who's just got this default speaker.

00:03:45.340 They're a mover.

00:03:46.280 They just want to initiate conversations.

00:03:48.240 They are the least comfortable with silence.

00:03:49.980 They are the most comfortable with thinking out loud.

00:03:52.520 And so everyone else in the group is then going to have their conversational response anchored to that first response.

00:04:01.060 And they maybe haven't had a chance to really think their thoughts.

00:04:04.840 So I think with the silence is, how do we make sure we actually welcome in everybody else's perspective?

00:04:12.200 And then the third part is like, well, how do we actually make a good decision?

00:04:17.180 Of all the things that we've heard about to the thing that we can do, what's a good set of heuristics to apply to making a good decision about it?

00:04:25.980 And this is using design thinking, right?

00:04:28.360 So we talk about diverging and converging in creative problem solving between the flaring and focusing, opening and closing is exploring.

00:04:38.960 And so I just would love for everyone to open, explore, and close instead of just like open, close, right?

00:04:48.940 And sort of like have as little debate in the middle as possible.

00:04:53.060 That's one big set of defaults that I would love for people to pump the brakes on and have a whole arc of opening, exploring, and like a clear close that everyone can get behind.

00:05:07.960 And you're talking about this, you see these things in group dynamic, group conversation.

00:05:11.620 But it also happened like one-on-one with like a loved one.

00:05:14.260 Oh, yeah.

00:05:14.660 Right?

00:05:14.860 The same sort of thing, right?

00:05:15.880 Like you're just like, oh, someone says something, okay, boom, here's what I say.

00:05:19.660 And you're like, well.

00:05:20.420 Yeah.

00:05:20.960 Or the ping pong match, right?

00:05:22.480 That goes on.

00:05:23.380 Yeah.

00:05:24.060 Well, so the example I love to give my fiancé when she comes to me with a challenge, and not to gender our speech, but I think a male pattern that is somewhat prevalent is the fixer, right?

00:05:38.820 Somebody comes to you with a problem, and your default might be like, oh, well, here's something you can do, honey.

00:05:43.940 Everybody raise your hand if that's ever annoyed somebody that you are dating or in a marriage with, right?

00:05:51.920 And just, I take a moment when she comes to me with a challenge, and I say, well, okay, so let's pause for a second.

00:05:59.400 Do you want me to coach you?

00:06:01.400 Do you want me to just empathize with you?

00:06:04.440 Do you want me to tell you what I think?

00:06:07.700 Do you want solutions?

00:06:08.520 What's the best way for me to show up here for you?

00:06:12.940 And that's not inauthentic.

00:06:14.820 I'm not changing who I am to do that.

00:06:17.660 She knows that's the way I show up.

00:06:19.600 It's like, what conversation are we in here?

00:06:21.900 And sometimes she'll say, I just need you to listen.

00:06:24.200 And I'm like, cool.

00:06:25.340 And when she tells me what's going on, I say, that sounds hard.

00:06:28.520 I'm really sorry that you're going through that.

00:06:30.480 But if she's like, look, I really need a thinking partner here.

00:06:32.700 I want to tell you the problem, and I want to brainstorm with you.

00:06:35.480 I'm like, great.

00:06:36.160 I'm going to go get the sticky notes.

00:06:38.000 What wall should we use that still is not covered by sticky notes in our house?

00:06:42.440 And that means taking control of our own responses, which is not trivial, not easy to do.

00:06:47.860 All right.

00:06:47.980 So let's talk about, so one of the things that design thinking does to figure out, to start solving problems with the system or structure is finding out what the structure or system looks like in the first place.

00:06:59.360 And in your book, you sort of lay out, you give your idea of what a conversational structure looks like, and you call it an operating system, which I think is a useful analogy.

00:07:09.720 And the first part of this operating system that you never think about with a conversation, but the first part, every conversation begins with an invite.

00:07:18.000 And I think people typically forget that there's an invite to a conversation because most conversations don't start with, I invite you to this conversation.

00:07:26.880 But there is an invite.

00:07:28.220 When you start a conversation with someone, you're throwing something out to somebody.

00:07:32.880 It's like, hey, do you want to take part in this conversation with me?

00:07:36.540 Yeah.

00:07:37.080 And we're talking about when somebody throws an angry or violent invite at you, you can respond in kind, which is kind of habitual.

00:07:48.360 Or you can say like, hey, wow, sounds like you're angry.

00:07:52.340 Or you cannot respond at all.

00:07:54.380 Right?

00:07:54.520 Sometimes that's the best way to just ignore the comments, let the haters hate.

00:07:58.800 And so it's being really, when we start to look at the invitation as something we can open up the envelope or not.

00:08:05.440 And when we open up the envelope, we don't have to RSVP to that party.

00:08:10.140 There's a lot of choices once we slow down the interaction.

00:08:13.700 I think there's a lot of decision points along the pathway.

00:08:18.080 And it also makes us a lot more, it makes me a lot more intentional about how I invite other people into things.

00:08:25.540 And to maybe try and anchor this, I like to joke, it's like some people just like to hear themselves talk.

00:08:36.880 But if you actually said to somebody, hey, I'd like you to invite you over for a coffee, and I'm just going to talk your ear off for an hour.

00:08:43.460 How does that sound?

00:08:44.660 Right.

00:08:44.780 Like if we invited them to the real, if we actually wrote the real invitation, like, would they come?

00:08:51.320 Right?

00:08:51.460 And most people in a one-on-one conversation, like halfway through, if they're just sort of like, their brain is just dumping, they'll say halfway through, like, oh, God, I'm so sorry.

00:09:01.920 Like, I've just, how are you, man?

00:09:03.700 I'm sorry.

00:09:04.300 I've just been taking up the whole, all the air here.

00:09:07.080 Like, what's up with you?

00:09:08.440 They'll notice that.

00:09:09.780 Some people never notice that.

00:09:10.900 And so you can just ask yourself, do I want to keep coming to that party if that's what this party is about?

00:09:16.540 What kind of parties am I inviting people to?

00:09:18.460 Like, just being really, really thoughtful and intentional about, are my invitations working?

00:09:26.180 And am I really explaining what I really want?

00:09:28.440 Because I think one of the challenges people sometimes have is this classic, you know, can we talk?

00:09:33.560 Which is just sends a chill through everybody's body, I think.

00:09:37.260 Right, yeah.

00:09:37.580 And so one of your questions was like, how can we make better invitations?

00:09:40.560 And I think that's just embedding other things into our invitation, like being really clear about what our goals are, or where it's going to happen, or who's invited and why, like the story behind it.

00:09:55.840 So just like, just a pure invitation of like, hey, can we talk?

00:09:58.540 It's like, you know, maybe it works if there's a lot of trust, if there's a lot of connection, and you're actually touching them on their shoulder.

00:10:04.780 And you say, hey, can we talk?

00:10:05.740 And they look up, and they say, sure, what's up?

00:10:07.320 And then you tell them what's up.

00:10:09.380 And you can give them the big picture.

00:10:11.060 But I think the more clarity, the bigger, the more zoom back you can give to people, the more helpful it is.

00:10:17.640 But then you can over-explain, you know, who's going to read, you know, a four-page manual for the meeting.

00:10:23.860 Like, here's our roles.

00:10:25.220 Here's our goals.

00:10:26.180 Here's our agreements.

00:10:27.300 Here's the agenda.

00:10:28.500 Here's our outcomes.

00:10:29.300 Those are all things that are really important to know, and that might make it easier for people to say yes to coming to the conversation.

00:10:36.020 But, you know, that's the power of editing.

00:10:38.640 Like, how can you say it, but how can you say it simply?

00:10:42.080 Well, so thinking about being more thoughtful about your conversational invitations, you know, we typically, people say we need to talk when you need to have that really hard conversation, right?

00:10:51.320 Yeah.

00:10:51.520 So what would be a better way to have, to invite someone to a hard conversation, whether you're talking to an employee about their performance, there's some sort of issue in your relationship, what would be a better invite?

00:11:01.840 Is it just saying, like, right up from the front, like, hey, can we talk about X issue?

00:11:06.660 Yeah.

00:11:06.940 I mean, so this is, look, I wish there was a one-size-fits-all for this, but I tend to take inspiration from my own understanding of the physical world.

00:11:15.580 And Amy Edmondson literally wrote the book on psychological safety, and there's plenty of other people who talk about the importance of safety.

00:11:24.940 And you have to have a sense of safety for a real challenging conversation to land well.

00:11:32.000 I also just like to think about what makes physical safety possible, right?

00:11:37.580 Like, when you walk into a space, what makes you feel safe versus what makes you feel unsafe?

00:11:43.700 And I often use the analogy in some of my talks of, you know, you turn down, New York doesn't really have many alleyways anymore, but if you go to Chicago, Chicago's got a lot of alleys, and they are super murdery alleys.

00:12:00.900 You just sort of, like, walk by this alley, and it's dark, and you can't even see the end of it, but you know there's no escape on the other side.

00:12:08.480 If you just walked down that, you just took a right-hand turn down that alleyway by accident, and you're in this dark space, and then you can't see the end of it, somebody steps behind you, and now your exit's blocked.

00:12:22.000 Your whole body will freeze up.

00:12:24.260 I'm trapped, right?

00:12:26.040 The walls are closed in on us.

00:12:28.300 There's no sense of safety there.

00:12:29.840 And if you've been to Asia, and you walk down, there's all these little alleyways in Bangkok and Tokyo, those little alleyways are filled with lights, they're filled with, like, tiny little restaurants.

00:12:43.520 The alleyway might be the same size, but it's just filled with life and with people, and we can also see the exits.

00:12:49.460 We can see the exits and entrances on either sides.

00:12:52.540 And so I think it's just this physical way of thinking about safety, seeing the exits, seeing other people, knowing there's an out, knowing why we're there, not coming in by accident.

00:13:05.840 So it's just like, it's not sandbagging somebody.

00:13:08.320 You don't just, like, pull somebody into that difficult conversation without giving them time to prep.

00:13:13.440 And I get it.

00:13:13.920 Look, people work in organizations.

00:13:15.180 I think it's terrible.

00:13:16.820 People get fired on a Friday so that they can't, you know, they just, like, you get pulled into this conversation, and they're like, hey.

00:13:22.900 You're fired.

00:13:23.760 Go get your stuff.

00:13:24.860 Get out of here.

00:13:26.200 And they do that because there's very low trust in a lot of organizations where they think, like, oh, if we actually let somebody know we're concerned about their performance at work, and we give them tons of time to prepare for it, they'll start downloading all the files from the central server and preparing their exit.

00:13:43.140 And I think that's really terrible.

00:13:44.600 We need to, I think it's ideal to give people a heads up of, like, look, I'm really concerned about, it just seems like you're not engaged with the project, and we talk about that.

00:13:55.620 What do you need from me?

00:13:57.280 I think often people wait way, way, way, way too long to have these difficult conversations.

00:14:03.380 The best time to bring up a difficult conversation is as quickly as possible, right?

00:14:09.540 So if you're waiting until it's, like, desperately terrible, and you have to do something about it, the stakes are going to be really, really high, and the person's going to be totally unaware that it's going on.

00:14:20.040 So the sooner you have that conversation, the better.

00:14:24.400 And just being as clear about what your needs are and being clear about what the other person's needs are as early on in the conversation as possible.

00:14:32.700 So it's okay.

00:14:33.620 Some of the takeaways I got as I was listening to you was, one, okay, if you're making an invite for a conversation, so if it's just like you're calling up a friend because you want to carp, like, say that.

00:14:43.940 Say, hey, can I call, can I just, can I, can I kvetch with you for a little bit instead of, instead of being, like, caught off guard, you know, and, like, sort of entrapping your buddy with, like, a 45-minute carp.

00:14:56.480 And your buddy might be like, hey, you know what?

00:14:58.040 I don't have time right now.

00:14:59.940 Yeah.

00:15:00.220 Let's do it later.

00:15:01.520 Right.

00:15:01.920 But then they know what they're walking into.

00:15:03.480 Right.

00:15:03.940 And they can step in with a full heart.

00:15:05.780 And then the other issue, too, is, like, if you, if you are receiving the invite, right, if someone's saying, hey, can we talk?

00:15:11.040 Like, one thing you can do is be like, well, what's this about?

00:15:14.180 Like, you know, instead of just, you can, like, even as the recipient, you can have a bit of, you can kind of pull that lever of the invite so you can figure out what exactly you're being invited to.

00:15:23.340 You can take back some power.

00:15:24.760 It's, it's, it's awkward.

00:15:25.720 And I know that it can feel like a weird power play of, like, oh, is there an agenda for the meeting?

00:15:30.680 Right.

00:15:31.200 And why isn't there an agenda for the meeting?

00:15:33.240 It seems like there ought to be one.

00:15:34.660 It's like, hey, we're, there's an hour, we're, we're going to ask for an hour of your time.

00:15:38.900 Well, what's the plan?

00:15:39.860 Who else is going to be there?

00:15:41.540 I should, doesn't that seem reasonable to ask that?

00:15:43.920 But we have to find ways of asking that that don't seem challenging or pushing back too hard.

00:15:50.720 Yeah.

00:15:51.020 And this is, and this is because, like, we are collaborative creatures.

00:15:54.120 Like, we've evolved to be successful on this planet because we are collaborative.

00:16:00.180 And so conversations are collaborative. 1.00

00:16:02.400 When somebody waves goodbye at you and you don't wave back, you're like, wow, that guy was a jerk. 0.99

00:16:06.260 Like, you didn't wave goodbye. 0.99

00:16:07.220 And that's just a tiny, tiny non-responsiveness of turn-taking right there.

00:16:12.180 And so when somebody waits, like, a day to not send an email, you're like, wow, that, that guy thinks he's better than responding to my emails.

00:16:20.580 Whereas we have no idea what's going on in their world.

00:16:24.160 That's why it's always a good idea.

00:16:25.580 We haven't talked about the error and repair aspect of the OS.

00:16:29.060 Like, this is, it's just always good to assume that malice is, like, the last option of all the things we think could be going on.

00:16:37.500 Like, they probably just have something else going on in their lives.

00:16:40.300 Yeah, I mean, that's a good point.

00:16:41.740 So, like, the boss who just calls meetings without giving an agenda, you know, you might assume, oh, this guy's just a power trip.

00:16:47.340 Like, he's just, you know, getting people in this meeting and, like, you know, putting them on the spot.

00:16:51.500 And it might be, like, the boss just doesn't even, he's not even thinking that.

00:16:54.380 He's just thinking, hey, we're going to have a meeting.

00:16:56.440 So, I can talk to you guys because I like talking to you guys.

00:16:59.720 Right.

00:17:00.000 And so, we have to train people.

00:17:01.500 We have to start training people.

00:17:04.540 Oprah once said, and I love, I mean, we could just collect all the amazing things that Oprah said that we should live our lives by.

00:17:10.320 But, like, we teach people how to treat us.

00:17:14.580 Right.

00:17:15.020 And people learn.

00:17:16.800 People learn.

00:17:17.660 So, if we just respond to these meetings over and over again, and we never say, oh, what's the agenda?

00:17:23.780 Like, what's the big goal?

00:17:26.080 Who else is going to be there?

00:17:27.180 Where some of those clarifying elements, people will start to learn, like, oh, Daniel needs this.

00:17:33.640 And they're not unreasonable requests.

00:17:35.880 I think that they can be couched.

00:17:37.460 They can be phrased.

00:17:38.440 You can invite somebody to give you that information in a way that is invitational rather than demanding.

00:17:43.700 Yeah, that's another thing.

00:17:44.260 If you think about it, this is an invitation.

00:17:45.600 This isn't, as long as you let people know they still have autonomy.

00:17:48.240 Yeah.

00:17:48.820 Like, it can go a long way to be like, yeah, I'll do that.

00:17:51.680 It's amazing what people, whenever people feel like they're being cornered and they don't have a choice,

00:17:55.660 like, they just dig in their heels.

00:17:57.700 Yes.

00:17:58.100 And they just won't even do it.

00:17:59.040 But if you're just like, hey, I'd like to do this.

00:18:02.060 I think we need to have you here.

00:18:03.300 It'd be really important.

00:18:04.380 Understand you can't, if you can't make it, but let me know if you can't.

00:18:07.020 And then, nine times out of ten, the person's going to show up.

00:18:09.860 Because they're like, oh, I have a choice here.

00:18:11.620 And they respect my autonomy.

00:18:13.220 So, I will go there.

00:18:14.480 Because that person respects me.

00:18:16.020 Yeah.

00:18:16.240 Well, Elon Musk famously makes all the meetings of his organization optional.

00:18:23.320 And that's a real privilege, right?

00:18:26.460 To be able to say, like, cool, I'd like you to come to this meeting.

00:18:31.520 But his perspective is, it's more rude to make somebody stay in a room that they don't feel like they're getting or giving value.

00:18:39.980 And so, we call this, it used to be called the Law of Two Feet in open space technology.

00:18:46.040 And now, we call it the Law of Mobility.

00:18:48.300 It's about optionality.

00:18:49.780 And you say, like, look, if you're not getting value or giving value, I want you to go someplace where you think you are.

00:18:56.540 And a lot of people respond to that.

00:18:58.380 And this goes back to the culture piece.

00:19:00.300 A lot of people are like, but if I make my meetings optional, no one will come.

00:19:03.200 And I'm like, well, that's a problem with your meetings, dude.

00:19:05.200 Like, people should want to be there because the problem you're solving is interesting.

00:19:10.420 People should want to be there because you run them well, right?

00:19:13.900 And because you respect people's time.

00:19:16.320 And so, those are all things that are completely within your control.

00:19:19.500 So, if you think people won't come, if you make them optional, there's a deeper issue there.

00:19:24.980 We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:19:29.160 And now, back to the show.

00:19:30.920 So, we talked about the invite.

00:19:32.380 Another part of this conversation OS is the interface.

00:19:34.820 What do you mean by interface?

00:19:36.540 Yeah, I mean, conversations just have a place and a space, you know?

00:19:39.480 And the space and the place affects it.

00:19:42.160 So, right now, you and I are on clearcast.io, and it's just voice.

00:19:48.380 And there's actually something really interesting about just having a voice conversation.

00:19:53.440 A lot of people are talking now about Zoom fatigue and digital meetings.

00:19:57.260 And, you know, half of my clients are like, how do I get people to turn video on?

00:20:02.180 Well, why do you want to have video on?

00:20:04.160 Well, I know they're engaged.

00:20:05.620 I'm like, people can be disengaged with their video on, right?

00:20:08.520 So, when you have video, the interface for the conversation is suddenly body language and eye contact.

00:20:14.700 All of that stuff becomes available.

00:20:16.980 When the interface is real life, we've got a broadband connection.

00:20:20.560 We've got SmeloVision.

00:20:22.000 I can point, we can look, we can draw very easily.

00:20:26.620 Reality is terabytes of data.

00:20:30.040 It's a super broadband connection.

00:20:32.340 But the truth is, our working attention is very narrow.

00:20:35.180 And so, there can be value to having a limited bandwidth connection.

00:20:40.040 The classic example that I love to give is the value of texting somebody when you're party hopping.

00:20:45.540 Remember that?

00:20:46.540 Going bar to bar.

00:20:47.580 That was fun.

00:20:48.340 And I remember, this has happened to me, I don't know if it's happened to you, where you actually get annoyed with somebody who calls you when you text them.

00:20:54.880 You say, well, we're going to bar X.

00:20:57.000 And they go, hey, are you going to bar X?

00:20:59.220 I'm like, are you there yet?

00:21:00.260 I'm like, we told you we're going there.

00:21:01.860 We're going there now.

00:21:03.280 I'm at a bar.

00:21:04.240 It's too loud.

00:21:04.980 I can't hear you.

00:21:05.920 So, phone call is the inappropriate interface for a dialogue when we're in a noisy environment.

00:21:12.940 Texting is the best, most efficient way.

00:21:15.300 It's a bad way to break up with somebody.

00:21:19.000 It's the wrong interface to break up with somebody after you've been dating them for any length of time.

00:21:25.900 And so, I think the interface says something about the conversation.

00:21:30.240 So, when you go into a boardroom and you go into one of those boardrooms where the table is super duper long, that space says something.

00:21:37.700 There's a TV at one end, and whoever sits at the end by the TV, they're in charge.

00:21:44.820 We don't take that seat.

00:21:46.400 That seat is saved for somebody who's important.

00:21:50.000 So, we might sit the second seat over or in the middle if we really want to play it safe.

00:21:54.900 And so, the interface, the space and the place the conversation happens in affects the conversation 100%.

00:22:02.960 And it's up to us to shape our spaces to give us the results we want.

00:22:11.600 And this is like in our home life as well as in our work life.

00:22:14.520 Like, there's some people who make the recommendation that it's better for couples to sleep in separate beds and then have a third bed to be intimate in.

00:22:23.680 Some people say, like, you've got a cluttered space.

00:22:25.640 You'll have a cluttered mind.

00:22:26.540 So, the space affects the conversation 100%.

00:22:30.260 Where do you have your meetings?

00:22:34.200 You know, some people do these fake backgrounds.

00:22:36.840 And I find them interesting.

00:22:38.960 You know, some of them are, like, really professional.

00:22:41.120 And some of them are, like, way too professional.

00:22:42.720 It tells me something, like, wow, this person's trying kind of hard.

00:22:45.740 Some people are, like, have a messy background.

00:22:47.880 They don't care.

00:22:48.440 And that's fine.

00:22:49.200 But it says something.

00:22:50.320 It's information.

00:22:51.520 We're getting information from where we are.

00:22:55.680 That's telling us something about what's happening.

00:22:57.800 So, it's up to us to shape the space.

00:23:00.020 And I'll anchor it in an example, Brett.

00:23:01.940 Because in the book, I remember walking into a client where they'd set up the room in a big U.

00:23:07.480 And this is a really classic way to, like, okay, we're going to have this meeting.

00:23:11.640 And they put a projector in the middle.

00:23:14.120 And that space says SAGE on the stage.

00:23:16.840 And the truth is, I don't use slides when I do workshops 99% of the time.

00:23:22.060 Because I feel like that way of giving people information kind of puts them to sleep.

00:23:26.560 And so, during the first break, I took the middle table of the U, and I rotated it.

00:23:33.620 And I put the chairs on either side of the table.

00:23:36.940 What I find interesting was when people came back into the room, they felt the difference in the room before they saw it.

00:23:44.200 They were like, what's different?

00:23:46.020 Because when you first walk in, you still kind of see the tables and chairs.

00:23:49.340 You don't notice the way they've shifted.

00:23:51.200 They felt the difference in the quality of the room.

00:23:55.380 And I think that's something that we can tap into, whether it's a one-on-one conversation or a group conversation.

00:24:01.420 Like, if people walk into your office, do they feel intimidated?

00:24:04.780 Is that what you want?

00:24:06.180 Right?

00:24:06.680 Or do they feel comfortable and at home?

00:24:08.860 Like, these are choices we can make in the spaces that we host dialogue in.

00:24:14.300 Yeah, I really like that idea of being thoughtful about your interface.

00:24:16.420 I mean, the way I've applied it in my own life is for certain things, like if it's like agenda, like calendaring, like just like to-dos, like I can do that via digital interface, right?

00:24:28.380 It's like, here's what we're going to do.

00:24:29.960 But if like the conversation is nuanced and we need to like really flesh something out, like to me, you get on the phone for that or you do it in person.

00:24:38.400 Because if you try to handle that via like text message or instant message, email or Slack, like everything is disjointed and you don't get that, like, you know, like that gigabyte and terabyte of information that you get when you have an in-person conversation.

00:24:53.200 100%.

00:24:53.560 And so I think one of the things that's so important for people to do is just to say, where would you like to have this conversation?

00:24:59.080 I'm a calendar person too.

00:25:02.620 And I've worked with people where they are list people.

00:25:06.320 They want to work in like Asana or Trello.

00:25:10.780 And teams and individuals, like they can have friction over where the information is going and what holds their dialogue together.

00:25:19.260 Really, really early on in my relationship with my fiancee, we were doing long distance.

00:25:23.840 She made a shared calendar for us.

00:25:26.000 It was like a big move, right?

00:25:28.000 Because she was like, I just want to know when I'm seeing you next and I want to block out some, I want to put some blocks in there of things that I have going on.

00:25:35.140 And it moved things forward.

00:25:37.120 It was a bold gesture to say, this is kind of where we're going to start having our conversation about when and how often we're going to be seeing each other.

00:25:48.140 And we started a Slack channel together.

00:25:51.400 I love having a Slack channel with her.

00:25:53.060 It's instead of like buzzing her text or her email constantly with articles or links or ideas for the roof deck.

00:26:02.000 I just throw them into these various channels.

00:26:05.100 And so our conversation is organized and contained.

00:26:08.300 And so these are just choices we can make about how we design the dialogue that we are having in ways that actually work for us and the people that we're having them with.

00:26:20.160 If she was like, God, I hate Slack.

00:26:21.560 I did it because I know that she's into Slack.

00:26:23.680 She's on a couple of other Slack networks.

00:26:26.200 And so I was like, let's have a Slack channel.

00:26:28.040 And she was like, boom. 0.60

00:26:29.200 She made a half a dozen channels within the first hour.

00:26:32.580 And that, to me, we talk about the push and pull of conversation.

00:26:37.040 I was like, oh, she's into it.

00:26:39.560 If there was empty and silent for the first month, I would have known this is not working.

00:26:46.240 I'm not getting the feedback I need in this dialogue.

00:26:49.560 And we would have tried something else.

00:26:51.260 So another element of the conversational OS are goals.

00:26:54.840 We kind of talked about that with the invitation.

00:26:56.700 Like the invitation to a conversation, you can state your goals.

00:26:59.500 But the goals can shift as you're having the conversation because the conversation is dynamic.

00:27:05.340 So I think that causes a lot of conflict in the conversation because one person thinks they're talking about one thing and they thought everyone was on the same page.

00:27:13.720 And then as the conversation progressed, the goals have shifted unknowingly.

00:27:18.400 And so people are talking past each other and being frustrated.

00:27:21.280 Yeah, and so I think one of the challenges is that people are afraid to share their goals and to find out other people's goals explicitly because we're worried that if they're far apart, we won't know how to navigate it.

00:27:34.880 But to me, I think that's having clarity.

00:27:38.300 Knowing the distance means we can start talking closely about how far apart we are.

00:27:43.620 And one way to do that is actually, again, with physical interfaces.

00:27:47.120 I'm a big, and maybe this is just my design thinking heritage, making visuals of where we are is helpful to close the gap.

00:27:58.740 And there's lots of frameworks for this.

00:28:02.240 I'm a big fan of abstraction laddering where we're just like, let's talk about all the reasons why and let's keep going.

00:28:07.800 Let's go as many whys up as we can. 1.00

00:28:10.000 Like, why do you want that?

00:28:10.880 Why do you want that?

00:28:11.560 Well, this is why, why, why, why, why, why?

00:28:14.440 Ask a lot of whys. 0.97

00:28:16.480 You may find out that some of their ultimate whys are not misaligned from your ultimate whys.

00:28:23.840 We may be, we may, our whys, our initial whys might seem somewhat far apart.

00:28:28.960 But if we go higher up, there may be a shared goal overarching all of it.

00:28:33.660 And then we can say, well, so that's what you want.

00:28:36.200 What are some ways that we can get you to that?

00:28:38.040 And this is exploring all of our options.

00:28:39.820 This is being experimental and collaborative.

00:28:41.980 And if we look at all of the ways that we can get it before we start to commit to some, I mean, look, this is just what's taught in negotiation school.

00:28:50.320 I went, I highly recommend wonderful intellectual vacation.

00:28:54.560 I went to the Harvard Negotiation Institute for a week.

00:28:56.700 I learned so much.

00:28:58.280 It was so fun to, like, do negotiation simulations for a whole week with a bunch of lawyers and executives.

00:29:03.860 And this is what they teach in getting to yes.

00:29:08.020 Make sure you understand why somebody wants what they want.

00:29:11.820 And then explore all the ways that seem valid to them to provide what it is that they want.

00:29:19.440 And make sure that they're also interested in exploring your whys and your hows.

00:29:24.400 And then you can start to find some commitments together.

00:29:27.100 It's exploring without committing, which is not easy, but important.

00:29:32.520 And you might even discover in that exploration of, like, what the whys are, that you have incompatible whys.

00:29:38.480 And there's, like, there's no deal.

00:29:40.360 And that's okay.

00:29:40.980 I think a lot of people are afraid of that.

00:29:42.400 Like, that's a problem.

00:29:43.260 But, like, that's always an option.

00:29:45.180 You'd be like, well, you know, it looks like it's not going to work out.

00:29:47.300 Great guy.

00:29:48.020 I'm going to move on and do something else.

00:29:49.560 Yeah.

00:29:49.840 Save some time.

00:29:50.520 Get to know as fast as possible.

00:29:52.360 Like, wow, there's no there there.

00:29:53.720 Cool.

00:29:54.100 Great.

00:29:54.960 That was a quick meeting.

00:29:55.900 Thank you.

00:29:56.680 But if you want to figure out where the yes is, you've got to do all this work.

00:30:01.140 And I guess as you're having the conversation, make sure you're kind of...

00:30:05.240 Sometimes you have to check in.

00:30:06.260 Like, are we still talking about the same thing here?

00:30:09.780 Because that can...

00:30:10.020 Re-inviting.

00:30:10.600 Re-inviting.

00:30:11.120 Yeah.

00:30:11.320 Right.

00:30:11.620 Right.

00:30:12.280 And this can happen in a business context or even in a personal context, right?

00:30:16.640 It's like, you know, if you're having a conversation about money, you know, sometimes or oftentimes you realize, no, this isn't about money.

00:30:23.700 This is...

00:30:24.660 We're having a conversation about something else.

00:30:26.760 Yeah.

00:30:26.940 And you have to make sure that you bring that out as you're having that conversation.

00:30:31.400 Yeah.

00:30:31.600 And this is like...

00:30:32.300 So I was looking at some of your past episodes.

00:30:34.120 I was looking at this weekly marriage meeting episode.

00:30:37.020 And this is really about having a cadence of dialogue, like having a regular conversation in place to talk about important things.

00:30:46.360 And the check-in, I think a lot of people talk about with big, important relationships we have, like marriages or business partnerships.

00:30:53.360 Like we make a big agreement at the end and then we just get to work.

00:30:57.020 But checking in regularly and making sure, like, are you getting what you need out of this?

00:31:02.820 That's a scary conversation to say.

00:31:05.060 But if you're doing it weekly, just like with the conversation we were talking about earlier about firing somebody, it's like, hey, is this job still working for you?

00:31:12.700 Are you getting what you need out of this job?

00:31:14.980 Like, are you getting what you need out of me as a manager?

00:31:16.780 Does this company work for you?

00:31:18.720 I feel like people are scared to ask those questions because the answer might be no.

00:31:22.860 But I think the most high-performing professionals know that eventually you want to be hiring people who have ambition.

00:31:32.180 And that means that hopefully they're going to be smarter than you as quickly as possible.

00:31:37.840 And that means they might want to move on eventually.

00:31:40.040 And so you've got to find ways to keep them engaged.

00:31:43.100 And I think the same thing goes true for the people in our lives.

00:31:46.780 We have to grow to meet them where they are.

00:31:48.880 And if we're not giving them what they need, you've got to figure it out.

00:31:52.360 And so I think checking in and saying, is this the conversation you still want to be in?

00:31:56.740 And then having that conversation about what to do about it, it's worthwhile.

00:32:00.500 It's not easy.

00:32:01.260 None of this is.

00:32:01.880 If it was, everybody would be doing it.

00:32:04.400 So another element in the conversational OS is turn-taking.

00:32:08.120 And this is, I think, something I think a lot of people, it's like when they think about conversations, they often key in.

00:32:13.580 And they hone in on this, like, whose turn is it?

00:32:15.940 And when do I, how do I interject?

00:32:17.860 And like, why is this guy talking so much?

00:32:19.740 And why isn't he giving me a turn?

00:32:21.860 So, and I think that's kind of related to tempo too, which we'll talk about.

00:32:25.460 But like, you make the case, whenever there's sort of a conversation, there's a call and response typically in a good conversation.

00:32:33.520 So someone makes the invite, throws something at you, and then you have a choice on how you're going to respond.

00:32:39.340 And you say, you've kind of broken down, there's five conversational responses or choices we have when it's our turn to speak.

00:32:46.380 So what are those?

00:32:47.120 Kind of walk us through those.

00:32:48.720 Yeah, and I'll also just say, it's sort of interesting that you see tempo or cadence as the flip side to this.

00:32:54.700 My publisher actually was trying to make the case that I should collapse the OS down to, like, fewer elements.

00:33:00.600 He's like, but isn't turn-taking and cadence and threading, like, are they kind of all the same thing at different, like, levels of zoom?

00:33:06.820 And I'm like, yeah, but I think it's useful to make them discreet because then you can tweak them, right?

00:33:12.580 Yeah, because to me, cadence is about temperature.

00:33:15.240 And temperature is one way I think of it.

00:33:17.120 It's like, is this conversation growing hot or cold is one way to think about it.

00:33:22.100 It's like, this conversation is getting a little bit hot.

00:33:24.660 Like, I want to figure out a way to cool it down.

00:33:26.420 Or like, wow, this conversation is getting way cold and I need to find a way to warm it up.

00:33:31.180 You know, fast and slow is one way to think about cadence and hot and cool is another.

00:33:34.580 And yeah, it is an emergent phenomenon, I guess, of turn-taking.

00:33:39.220 To me, turn-taking is, without a doubt, certainly for facilitators.

00:33:42.700 When I teach and coach people on facilitation, which is, like, one of the main things that I do in my business life, turn-taking is so clear because it's so obvious.

00:33:53.780 We see speaking, right?

00:33:55.760 The speaking is what happens.

00:33:56.860 And I actually just interviewed a conversation analyst on my podcast, a really, really brilliant woman who wrote a book called Talk.

00:34:04.160 She literally just does scientific analysis of dialogue, a totally different aspect of this work.

00:34:10.480 She points out that turn-taking really, it's pairs.

00:34:14.620 It's a call and response.

00:34:16.420 There's an invitation and a response.

00:34:18.360 And so, the first thing, and we talked about this earlier, the first thing you can do with an invitation is nothing, right?

00:34:27.560 You can just hold in silence.

00:34:30.180 And that's the, I think, that's in the middle of this diamond-shaped diagram that I drew out.

00:34:36.060 Like, not many people will take that response of just, like, waiting and seeing what happens.

00:34:43.140 But it's a, it can be really powerful because people will say more.

00:34:47.220 They might even change their initial invitation if you wait long enough.

00:34:51.020 So, you definitely do not have to respond to somebody.

00:34:55.060 Can I interject?

00:34:56.000 So, there's, I know a guy.

00:34:57.360 There's a guy that I've worked with.

00:34:59.300 I mean, sorry, I'm taking, I'm going to get my turn now.

00:35:02.620 Yeah, get in there.

00:35:03.360 Well, because, yeah, you felt that move, right?

00:35:04.880 You're like, there's something here.

00:35:06.280 So, there's a guy that I've worked with at church.

00:35:09.480 And he's, like, and as a profession, he does, like, he's an organizational guy.

00:35:13.600 Like, he just helps hospitals, you know, figure stuff out.

00:35:16.380 I don't know.

00:35:17.160 But one of his, like, really, I finally caught on to this thing that he did.

00:35:20.460 Like, you would talk to him, and then he would just be silent and just kind of look at you silent and, like, smile.

00:35:26.280 And then, like, you felt like, oh, man, I need to talk more.

00:35:28.580 And he started, like, talking more.

00:35:29.940 Yeah.

00:35:31.340 And I was like, that's actually pretty, it's kind of slick.

00:35:34.340 I don't know if he's doing it on purpose.

00:35:35.300 I don't think he did it on purpose, but I think he figured it out that if he just was quiet, people would tell him more things because they felt uncomfortable.

00:35:44.960 Right.

00:35:45.160 So, this is an amazing, and I'm really glad you noticed that and brought it up because it's, like, some people are just reactive.

00:35:51.460 So, that's one of the, there's initiating, holding, and reacting.

00:35:53.820 And a lot of us are reactive, right?

00:35:58.280 As soon as some of the, the average gap between turns is, like, 200 milliseconds, which is really fast.

00:36:05.840 That's, like, the gun goes off and the sprinter, like, barely starts sprinting.

00:36:10.340 It's really, really fast.

00:36:12.120 And it actually takes something like 400 milliseconds to form a thought, which means that we are literally talking without thinking most of the time, or we're preparing what we're going to say before somebody's finished.

00:36:27.420 And so, when you talk about defaults and what's in our operating system, this guy has got different software installed on his setup.

00:36:36.640 His hold operating system is just set to 11, right?

00:36:42.880 And his React is turned way down.

00:36:45.160 And if we start to see this in someone else, if we can notice it and name it, I think we can start to emulate it and invoke it.

00:36:55.820 We can see and sense our own initiate and react modality, right?

00:37:03.720 Which is, like, I like to talk and I like to respond.

00:37:07.720 Boom, boom, boom, boom.

00:37:08.780 Rapid fire.

00:37:09.700 But we can, with intention, be like, look, I want to be more holdy.

00:37:14.280 I want to up my hold today.

00:37:16.980 And that's where I think naming these things is helpful, to say, look, I want to hold more, or I want to reflect more, right?

00:37:24.620 Holding is just silence.

00:37:26.600 Reflecting is being like, hey, it sounds like you're saying this.

00:37:29.880 Is that right?

00:37:30.760 So, it's not adding more information.

00:37:33.000 It's affirming what somebody's saying and getting more from them.

00:37:37.400 And reflecting, being reflective for someone else, like, that's what a coach does.

00:37:41.020 That's what I do as a coach, is I try to listen to what somebody's saying and hold space for them, not just in silence.

00:37:47.940 I don't just sit there for an hour and just say nothing and let them talk the whole time.

00:37:52.520 I also say, well, it sounds like you're saying this.

00:37:55.020 And then I go do the fifth move, which is sometimes, in very sparse amounts, reframing, right?

00:38:03.320 Reframing is super dangerous.

00:38:04.460 And I think we all have friends and co-workers who do this, where you come to them with a problem, they say, well, they fix it.

00:38:11.680 They're like, well, you know, there's, I mean, the dad had to die sometime.

00:38:16.620 Whoa.

00:38:18.060 Okay, thanks for reframing my problem for me.

00:38:21.680 That's not so helpful.

00:38:23.840 Right.

00:38:24.100 So, reframing is a delicate thing.

00:38:27.440 Like, people have to be ready for it.

00:38:29.060 It has to be welcome, and it has to be appropriate for the time.

00:38:34.180 And so, reframing people's perspectives, my dad used to say, you know, you don't wake a sleeping man.

00:38:41.340 You really want to be careful who you shake awake.

00:38:46.020 You know, giving people advice when they're not ready for it is not so, it rarely works.

00:38:51.380 And so, I think reframing, you get the right to reframe after a lot of holding and reflecting.

00:38:56.840 But I think initiating and reacting is like, seems like 90% of normal day-to-day dialogue is just talking and quick response.

00:39:07.920 And the reason for that is, is that that's the default.

00:39:10.080 Like, we actually, if somebody hesitates, we think they're either rude or calculating.

00:39:15.240 So, it's really interesting that this guy who's silent, that you see it as spacious and connecting with you instead of, well, wait, why is he?

00:39:25.300 And, you know, what's he really thinking?

00:39:27.580 Right.

00:39:27.840 Well, that's how it was at first.

00:39:29.340 I'm like, I feel like this is uncomfortable.

00:39:32.000 I'm just going to, like, blurt out my entire life to him.

00:39:34.440 But then after a while, I was like, oh, that's just what he does.

00:39:37.060 And so, I got used to it.

00:39:38.260 And I'm like, okay, he's just thinking about this stuff.

00:39:40.580 And it was fine.

00:39:41.440 But it took a while to figure out, though.

00:39:43.240 And once I did, I was like, okay, that's great.

00:39:45.300 Right.

00:39:45.440 And so, saying to people, like, it's so hard to do this in our culture, to say, like, you know, let me think about that for a second.

00:39:52.700 And I want to give you a really good response, not just the first one that comes off the top of my head.

00:39:56.120 So, like, I'm thinking a couple of things now.

00:39:58.720 It could be these three things.

00:40:00.300 That's a really amazing way to redesign our conversations instead of feeling like we have to react.

00:40:06.260 Because often, I think we feel like somebody asks us a question.

00:40:09.080 And especially if it's coming with force and with power behind it, there's this feeling that we have to respond immediately.

00:40:16.740 Right.

00:40:17.340 You have to have a hot take.

00:40:19.900 What's your opinion on this thing, this complex issue?

00:40:22.560 And I'm like, man, I got to think about that.

00:40:25.200 Like, no, you can't think.

00:40:26.540 You got to have one now.

00:40:27.220 And you're like, oh, geez, I haven't even thought about it.

00:40:30.300 Right. And if you say, I need to think about it, that makes you seem like you're, I don't know, an egghead or you're calculating all the things we just talked about.

00:40:37.300 It's like, what's wrong with our larger cultural conversation operating system that saying, let me think about that for a second.

00:40:45.680 And literally, like, having, like, two seconds of silence.

00:40:48.680 That's awkward.

00:40:49.880 Of course that's awkward.

00:40:51.560 So, we have to find ways to create that space for ourselves.

00:40:55.980 That's why we um.

00:40:57.140 Right.

00:40:57.900 Do more umming, maybe.

00:40:59.440 Yeah.

00:41:00.700 So, another element.

00:41:01.960 So, when you're having conversations, you're inevitably going to step on toes, misspeak, misunderstand, assume bad faith, etc.

00:41:11.300 So, what do you do?

00:41:12.180 How do you repair those errors so you can keep the conversation going in a positive direction?

00:41:17.800 Yeah.

00:41:18.260 I mean, so, there's a couple of things.

00:41:19.620 One, I have another sticky note here because I was listening to your interview with Neil Rose.

00:41:23.400 I think that's, I'm pronouncing his last name correctly.

00:41:26.480 Yeah, counterfactual guy, yeah.

00:41:28.300 Yeah, and he talks about regrets.

00:41:30.440 And I just want to be really clear that the stuff that we're talking about can be applied to, like, one-on-one dialogues and group dialogues, but also with inner dialogue.

00:41:40.100 Because I assume it's not just me.

00:41:43.480 There's, I've got a couple of voices in there banging around.

00:41:47.740 And inner speech, the inner conversation is really, really fast.

00:41:51.640 And I, myself, and I know it's just me, I'm really hard on myself sometimes.

00:41:56.720 Some of the voices in my head kind of just jump to conclusions at weak signals and use those weak signals to question my entire validity as a human being in the professional world.

00:42:13.020 That inner self-talk.

00:42:14.740 And so, I think we're actually nicer to other people than we are to ourselves.

00:42:19.700 We talk about error and repair, like, with the loved ones in our lives, we can kind of, we want to assume the best.

00:42:28.000 I had an old business partner who described it as putting a 10 over their head.

00:42:32.480 And, like, the judges at an Olympics would hold up a 10 to rate your dive.

00:42:39.360 And so, one way to think about the error and repair operating systems we're working with is, are we putting a 10 over people's heads?

00:42:47.900 Or are we walking around with a 1 ready to rock?

00:42:51.320 And so, there are a lot of people who assume the worst of everybody.

00:42:56.360 And so, I assume, you know, here's the thing.

00:42:58.480 Like, if it's a choice, which would you choose?

00:43:02.260 Brad, would you rather think the best of everybody or the worst of everybody?

00:43:06.040 I think the best of everybody.

00:43:07.560 Because if you think the worst, it's like you can't, there's no trust.

00:43:09.840 There's no possibility of trust.

00:43:11.980 Right.

00:43:12.360 But on the other hand, and I agree with you, like, if you're going to choose, like, it's, being angry takes a lot of effort, I think.

00:43:19.180 And so, I think it's great to walk around thinking the best of everybody, but I'm also certain you know people who just don't even notice when people are walking all over them.

00:43:28.920 Right.

00:43:29.140 No, that's true.

00:43:29.700 Yeah, so it's like, being at 1, being at 0 or 10 or 11 is not great.

00:43:35.360 And so, we want to be someplace in the middle where we want to see slights, but then inquire about them.

00:43:43.800 Like, hey, I noticed that.

00:43:44.840 That didn't feel so great.

00:43:45.660 Like, what did you mean by that?

00:43:46.660 But really actually ask.

00:43:48.480 I'd be like, what did you mean by that?

00:43:50.440 Right.

00:43:50.740 Like, have your fists already in a cartoon, pugilistic stance.

00:43:54.960 And I think we can do the same thing for ourselves.

00:43:56.960 If we have regrets, that's an inner part of ourself saying, like, I'm not happy about that.

00:44:02.520 And so, it's actually good to listen to that voice that's feeling regret.

00:44:05.900 That voice is saying, something's not right here.

00:44:08.200 I'm unhappy.

00:44:09.300 And I think we often say, like, okay, I want to live my life without regrets.

00:44:13.620 Right.

00:44:13.740 That was one of your opening points in that episode.

00:44:16.960 It's like, I want to live my life without regrets.

00:44:18.360 And that seems like a great goal, but it's actually, we're going to feel regrets because

00:44:22.680 there's going to be a part of us that's like, I wanted something and I got something different.

00:44:26.820 This is information.

00:44:28.540 How do I listen to that voice?

00:44:30.560 How do I have a conversation with that voice rather than just either dismiss it or accept

00:44:35.680 it?

00:44:35.900 And so, I think that's usually what happens with our external operating system on error and

00:44:41.180 repairs.

00:44:41.680 We either dismiss it 100% or accept it 100%.

00:44:44.660 Instead, require, negotiate, converse.

00:44:49.200 The same way that we would do if somebody says, like, what are you, how much do you want

00:44:53.660 for the bike?

00:44:54.220 And you're like, I want a thousand bucks.

00:44:56.340 And they're like, $5.

00:44:57.840 And you're like, no, like, it's a thousand.

00:45:00.180 We're just going to dig in.

00:45:01.040 We're not going to have a negotiation.

00:45:02.180 I'm like, look, I'll accept 950.

00:45:05.140 So, we're negotiating.

00:45:06.340 We're going back and forth.

00:45:07.960 So, if that voice that's in me, it's like, that's unhappy, that is feeling regret, I want

00:45:12.620 to listen to it and say, like, look, I see what you're saying.

00:45:16.000 Thank you for the information.

00:45:17.540 There's this other information, and now we're going to move on with the rest of our lives.

00:45:22.020 And so, that's, I think, the same thing has to happen with our external error and repairs.

00:45:26.560 Like, deciding what good looks like and what a mistake is means that we can hold people

00:45:33.680 to the rules more easily.

00:45:35.420 If we don't have agreements, we can't break them, right?

00:45:38.300 Nor can we hold people to them.

00:45:40.040 So, I think error, like many things, are better done up front than at the end.

00:45:46.960 Article 48 of the European Union's Declaration for Human Rights, I'm so proud of myself for

00:45:52.020 remembering this, says that everyone shall be presumed innocent until proven guilty.

00:45:56.660 Amazingly, that's actually not in the U.S. Constitution.

00:45:58.760 It's somewhere deeper in our, some, like, bylaw or something.

00:46:02.680 But I like this idea of innocent until proven guilty in our lives.

00:46:07.220 Right.

00:46:07.440 Like, why not?

00:46:08.260 Yeah, why not?

00:46:09.220 Well, Daniel, we talked about it.

00:46:10.840 We talked about a lot of great things here.

00:46:12.920 And what I love about it, I mean, we didn't hit everything, but I think, so the big takeaway

00:46:16.020 is thinking about conversations as having these different levers you can pull and sort of,

00:46:21.560 I don't know, I hate using the word manipulate, because it sounds like you're manipulating some

00:46:24.800 sort of like, but like, you know, you can tweak them so that you can make a conversation

00:46:29.420 more productive.

00:46:30.080 And then, like I said, we haven't talked about everything, and later on in the book, you

00:46:33.360 go into like, some practical applications of this stuff.

00:46:35.980 But I think people, what we talked about, they can start, you know, putting this stuff

00:46:39.560 into practice.

00:46:40.440 Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:46:43.200 Yeah.

00:46:43.560 Well, so first, I think I agree with you about the manipulate thing, because it means like,

00:46:47.400 but it just means shape.

00:46:48.740 Shape.

00:46:49.040 Yeah, that's what I'm doing.

00:46:49.600 So if we say like, and that's why I say design, we're designing, we're shaping, I'm shaping

00:46:54.340 it, and you're saying, like, we've co-designed, we've co-shaped this conversation, but I've

00:46:58.780 trusted you as the interviewer to take us where you want us to go.

00:47:02.000 And we're all doing that in our conversations every day.

00:47:03.980 We're all trying to shape them for the better.

00:47:06.320 This is just about people having some knowledge and perspective on the material.

00:47:11.840 And so, yeah, people can go to theconversationfactory.com slash goodtalk.

00:47:16.760 They can download a couple of free chapters of the book.

00:47:18.840 So that's the easiest thing.

00:47:21.260 Learn about the Conversation OS and some of the basic principles.

00:47:24.720 You don't have to give me a penny, but the book's available on Amazon.

00:47:27.420 Obviously, I'd love for people to check it out.

00:47:29.640 And I have a podcast too.

00:47:31.060 People have looked at some episodes about, you know, I just, I interview people to just

00:47:35.580 try and understand how do they design their conversations in work and in life.

00:47:40.380 And so that's the other place people can check out, conversationfactory.com slash listen.

00:47:46.120 Fantastic.

00:47:46.540 Well, Daniel Stillman, thanks for your time.

00:47:47.740 It's been a pleasure.

00:47:48.800 Oh man, it's just such a, it's such a joy.

00:47:51.220 It's an honor.

00:47:51.640 You're an amazing interview.

00:47:52.480 So it's been a, it's been really fun for me.

00:47:55.000 Well, thank you so much.

00:47:55.720 I appreciate that.

00:47:57.340 My guest here is Daniel Stillman.

00:47:58.620 He's the author of the book, Good Talk.

00:48:00.100 It's available on amazon.com.

00:48:01.440 You can find out more information about his work at his website, danielstillman.com.

00:48:04.620 Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash conversation design.

00:48:07.960 We can find links to resources where we can delve deeper into this topic.

00:48:15.540 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast.

00:48:20.560 Check out our website at artofmanliness.com where you find our podcast archives, as well

00:48:23.680 as thousands of articles we've written over the years.

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00:48:50.740 Until next time, this is Brett McKay.

00:48:52.080 Reminding you all to listen to the AOM podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

The Art of Manliness - August 10, 2020

#634： How to Design Conversations That Matter

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