The Art of Manliness - #646： How to Win at Losing

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast losing stinks

00:00:12.680 nobody wants to suffer defeat in the game flunk a test or get passed over for promotion losses can

00:00:17.840 feel like stinging humiliations insurmountable setbacks like the end of the world they even

00:00:22.480 push us to quit pursuing something we absolutely love and yet losses can be the most instructive

00:00:28.220 and meaningful parts of our lives and be central to our ultimate success my guest set out to study

00:00:32.860 and explain these unappreciated upsides of getting bested his name is sam weinman he's a sports writer

00:00:37.620 and he shares what he learned in his book win at losing how our greatest setbacks can lead to our

00:00:41.860 greatest gains he shares some of those insights with us today on today's episode of the aom podcast

00:00:46.180 sam and i begin our conversation with how losing is typically a lot more interesting than winning

00:00:49.820 the difference between losing and failing and how you can lose without failing as well as fail without

00:00:54.640 losing sam then illustrates the lessons in humility growth personal responsibility and resilience that

00:01:00.020 can come from losing by sharing the stories of famous people who dealt with famously big losses

00:01:04.380 including golfer greg norman soap star susan lucci presidential candidate michael dukakis and speed

00:01:09.900 skater dan jansen we in our conversation with how sam's study of how to turn loss into gain has

00:01:14.680 influenced his own children and the way they deal with their setbacks good insights here on both how to

00:01:19.000 deal with your own losses as well as to help your kids deal with theirs after the show's over check out

00:01:23.200 our show notes at awim.is win at losing all right sam weinman welcome to the show my pleasure thank you

00:01:38.800 for having me so about three or four years ago this is i guess 2016 you published a book called win at

00:01:44.660 losing and it's all about how to be a good loser what it's like to lose and the lessons you can learn

00:01:50.680 from losing and the upsides of losing i'm curious what kick-started you on that project to explore

00:01:55.900 loserdom i mean the original genesis for me was just a challenge i was having with my boys i have two

00:02:04.300 sons now they're 15 and 12 and obviously when i embarked on this they were younger but even then it

00:02:09.060 was just very apparent to me that they didn't understand or see any value whatsoever in in losing

00:02:18.200 and both competitive kids competitive athletes and you know we had a series of sort of comical

00:02:26.340 meltdowns in various settings and it just became very apparent to me that this was an area that

00:02:36.420 not only they but everyone can really stand to embrace is that you know in every loss there is a lesson

00:02:44.660 in every loss there is an upside and an opportunity to respond in a in a more constructive way and

00:02:52.580 so that was the idea and you know ultimately it was this this concept of look at all these amazing

00:02:58.980 impressive people who have lost in spectacular fashion and look at how they responded and look at how

00:03:07.480 the look at how they are able to point to those episodes as real growth moments for them and not

00:03:16.980 all of them had these sort of triumphant comebacks from those losses some of them the losses are what

00:03:22.680 define them at least in the public's eye but they even those people can still say yes there's a lot of

00:03:28.240 good things that came out of this when you're also a sports writer you write about golf so you you

00:03:33.220 know you encountered losing in your career on a regular basis and you know we'll talk about one

00:03:37.700 golfer who lost you know monumentally like you saw it like you you saw this regularly 100 and i would

00:03:44.180 say one of the things that was very apparent to me and it's still very apparent to me throughout my

00:03:49.100 sports writing career is a game ends or a tournament ends or whatever and you know some of you would go

00:03:54.260 into the winner's locker room to talk to the winner some of us would go into the loser's locker room and

00:03:58.740 always felt like the story about the losers was more interesting because they were a bit more

00:04:07.080 introspective and a bit more willing to discuss what went wrong which is just a hell of a lot more

00:04:13.900 compelling than you know we executed what we wanted to we came in we really wanted all those cliches from

00:04:19.280 winners people who win are happy and and rightfully so but they don't really plumb the depths of what

00:04:25.500 happened as much as you do when you lose and so that was definitely a big part of it as well i just

00:04:30.700 felt like those were the most compelling stories and continue to be and the other part is i'm a i'm a

00:04:35.300 you know sports coach i'm a youth sports coach with my boys and it just feels like and i've said this a

00:04:40.740 hundred times you know your your your practices after losses uh your your next session after a loss

00:04:47.980 is far more constructive and everyone is much more engaged than after you win because after you win

00:04:55.540 everything's great there's nothing really to talk about but after you lose there's a lot of there's a

00:04:59.600 lot of things to go over and and build upon right and you make that point that losing i mean success can

00:05:04.660 actually get in the way of getting better because you think well we won we don't have to do anything

00:05:09.620 with losing though it really causes that self-reflection and look at what are my weak points so i can get

00:05:14.380 better at that exactly exactly and then you know there's there's a million examples of people who've

00:05:20.740 had sort of uninterrupted success early on in their lives and when they are faced with setbacks which

00:05:28.600 everyone is they struggle more than the people who kind of you know have their you know the typical

00:05:34.020 bumps in the road and have to kind of scratch and claw their way out of it you know you have guys who

00:05:37.520 are who are you know on the fast track at some point and then and then something goes wrong and

00:05:43.200 they're not equipped to deal with it so in the beginning of the book you you you make a distinction

00:05:48.420 between losing and failing and i think often in our just common conversation common vocabulary we

00:05:53.720 kind of conflate the two we kind of they're the same losing and failing is the same but you think

00:05:58.060 it's important to recognize the difference so first off what is the difference and why do you think

00:06:01.840 it's important to make that distinction yeah i think that to me the best way to explain the

00:06:07.720 difference between losing and failing is that losing is just an event it's just a fact it's something

00:06:11.220 that happened failure is an interpretation of what happened and it's uh somewhat a reflection on

00:06:17.320 you know poor execution or inability to execute or or some sort of you know poor poor effort and

00:06:27.240 the reason why it's important to distinguish between the two is that sometimes you lose and

00:06:32.780 it's not really your fault things just happen a certain way and you need to recognize that there's

00:06:39.720 not much point in beating yourself up over something that just went the other way whereas a failure is

00:06:46.980 an opportunity to examine and analyze what you did wrong where you fell short so that you can

00:06:55.440 adjust accordingly and you know it's it's possible to to lose without failure and it's also possible

00:07:02.540 to to fail without losing which i can explain that sounds sort of vague but to me it's like you know

00:07:07.820 we have all these things that go our go against us in life and which we would characterize as a loss

00:07:15.920 and you know sometimes it's something that we did that we can we can learn from and and and sort of beat

00:07:22.940 ourselves up over but there's also times when it's like you know what i'm not going to beat myself

00:07:27.220 over this because this wasn't this wasn't on me you know i mean like not to oversimplify that this

00:07:33.260 current moment in time but look at this you know look at this global pandemic right look at look at

00:07:38.060 all the look at all the the hardship that has resulted from this period people you know losing

00:07:44.840 jobs and and and businesses are failing well a lot of those again businesses are are suffering i should

00:07:50.320 say just did not confuse it well people are losing jobs in large part because of an event that's outside

00:07:57.040 of their control so that's a loss you know when you're talking about a failure you know someone

00:08:01.420 loses their job because they screwed up x y and z you know it's important to note that this that

00:08:06.300 difference no yeah i think if anyone's played sports they understand that distinction where you

00:08:11.480 can like lose but not fail but fail but not lose i mean like i've had those games i remember in high

00:08:17.600 school where in football like we played really sloppy like it was just terrible but like we still ended

00:08:22.900 up winning because the other team just played sloppy and so we won but like it really was a bad game

00:08:29.620 like we failed we didn't play up to our potential but then we had those games where like you did

00:08:32.800 everything right but the other team just did a little bit better and there's nothing else you

00:08:36.500 could do right and that's that's a concept that i talk about in the book and you know for for young

00:08:41.640 kids that's a very difficult concept to understand you know you walk into a locker room after losing

00:08:47.480 a game 2-1 and you might have actually played one of your best games of the year and you know again

00:08:51.880 that's a loss not a failure you know you did everything almost everything right and and to your

00:08:55.820 point there's tons of times when you know yeah we won but you know it wasn't because we did anything

00:09:01.240 that well there's so many things that that we can improve upon and you know there's a lot of things

00:09:06.780 that that we we need to address here and again that's a really that's a really difficult concept for

00:09:14.120 for really anyone to to really wrap their heads around but especially when they're when they're young

00:09:18.200 so when you set out to like research and write this book you interviewed or you know yeah you got

00:09:24.220 interviews with all these people like famous people who lost in spectacular ways and they're

00:09:28.860 like they're known for losing when you when you made these reach outs like did a lot of people

00:09:34.080 were a lot of people hesitant to talk about it or most people pretty open about it i mean there were

00:09:38.740 definitely people who i reached out to who were not open to doing it and either they didn't respond

00:09:43.220 or they respectfully declined and which is fine i mean like you know the the famous example is bill

00:09:49.020 buckner who you know as you probably know is the the first baseman for the boston red sox ball rolls

00:09:54.640 through his legs 1986 world series he's kind of synonymous with this you know egregious error in

00:09:59.940 the worst possible setting i reached out to him and he declined through the red sox i don't begrudge

00:10:05.480 him for doing it or for declining but you know i would argue and what from what i've read about him

00:10:11.120 is that there's a great story to tell about how that episode shaped him and it was a lot of pain

00:10:15.920 there so i don't want to say it was it would be an easy story to tell but you know there was a number

00:10:20.620 of people like that and then you know the people who who did ultimately agree to talk to me were

00:10:26.700 people who who who you know basically buy into the premise who bought into what i was selling you know

00:10:32.240 i mean and there was a little bit of flattery from me you know the the the pitch was hey i want to talk

00:10:37.300 to you about why you're such a loser the pitch was you're someone who is known to have sustained a

00:10:41.940 really significant loss in your profession or in your life and my perspective is that there's a lot

00:10:48.860 that people can learn from how you handled it would you be open to discussing this and of course

00:10:53.160 you know you butter them up in that way like yeah that sounds great thank you so much and

00:10:56.380 so the conversation went from there well and what's interesting too is that it seems like in the past

00:11:00.700 i'd say decade like people this idea of like talking about failure has become more acceptable i mean

00:11:06.640 it's something people don't like to talk about but it's become more socially acceptable

00:11:09.940 but you make this point that like yeah we're more open about talking about failure but we don't

00:11:14.860 sometimes we don't do it in a really productive way what do you think is going on there well a

00:11:19.220 couple things i think you're right it's kind of kind of like a corporate cliche you know losing is

00:11:23.520 you gain from from failure and you know your business fails and there's something to be said for

00:11:27.420 that and i think the reason why that's that's great in concept but it's not always great in

00:11:32.600 execution is that people are sort of glossing over the real hard parts like they want to point to

00:11:37.440 their failure and want to point to everything that that went wrong but they're not really willing to

00:11:42.120 do the work and the real sort of investigative work into their shortcomings to to really grow from it

00:11:49.120 you know brene brown the author has talked about it as like gold plating sorry gold plating grit

00:11:55.240 meaning like you're willing to sort of point to all the benefits of your setback without actually

00:12:03.360 going through the real hard work of unpacking it and learning from it and the you know sort of

00:12:10.720 metaphor that i use for it is someone who goes to the gym and they walk on the treadmill for you know

00:12:18.400 10 minutes at really low speeds and then they get off and pat themselves on the back for a killer

00:12:24.180 workout well yeah they went to the gym and they worked out but they didn't really do the work to really

00:12:29.120 gain anything from it right so there's got to be some pain there's got to be some discomfort

00:12:33.020 in that process for you to actually grow from it and so i think when we talk about people who

00:12:37.720 who don't really confront failure in a constructive way that's what we're talking about gotcha all right

00:12:45.100 so let's talk about some of these these famous people who lost and you start off the book with

00:12:48.880 someone from your domain of golf and it's greg norman and use him as a way that how losing can can teach

00:12:55.120 us humility so for those who aren't familiar with norman's career yeah can you give us a thumbnail

00:12:59.780 sketch of it and then what was his magnificent failure or well not failure we'll say loss sure

00:13:05.540 uh well actually i think it'll be both in this instance but so greg norman you know one generation

00:13:10.440 earlier was the premier star in golf you know great looking guy immensely talented had some you know

00:13:17.160 incredible incredible you know runs atop the world ranking in golf and in in many ways he was sort of

00:13:25.820 the poster boy for success but in some ways he also was not a very approachable guy like he was you know

00:13:31.900 he's just a better golfer than you he's better looking than you way wealthier than you not very

00:13:35.940 identifiable to the average person and then along the way he you know had some really notable collapses

00:13:43.860 in major championships and the biggest one and really kind of like the like you know i would say

00:13:50.480 the defining moment of his career was the 1996 masters it was the tournament he wanted to win

00:13:54.860 the most he had opportunities to win earlier in his career and in 96 he takes a six shot lead

00:14:00.460 into the final round and like the famous moment is he's preparing for the next day he's walking out of

00:14:07.580 the clubhouse saturday night and uh and uh a writer goes to me says greg not even you can

00:14:13.560 this up and sure enough he does he you know he blows the masters he you know falls apart on the

00:14:19.560 front nine and is as he's defeated by nick faldo who's kind of his rival of the time and the reason

00:14:26.640 why that was such a important moment was not because he lost but because in that moment this incredibly

00:14:34.320 impressive sort of hard to associate or identify with character became immensely human because everyone

00:14:43.120 just ached for him you watched the final nine of that that broadcast when it was already apparent he

00:14:47.800 was going to lose and it's painful to watch because this guy's dream was dissolving you know right before

00:14:54.400 him and you know his press conference afterwards he was you know very honest about how much it hurt

00:15:01.060 and you know he got this huge outpouring of support and so the reason why i always think of greg norman

00:15:07.660 as such a great loser is because here's a guy who had all these amazing successes throughout his career

00:15:13.960 and the real moment of connection with the public was was when he lost and you know i wanted to know

00:15:23.080 for me personally you know i was in college at that point and i just started getting getting into golf

00:15:27.560 and that was the moment i was like my god this game is so painful and this guy i feel for this guy

00:15:34.600 who you normally wouldn't think you could feel for a guy who's a you know multi-millionaire superstar

00:15:39.540 athlete and so that was the story i wanted to tell and and greg was very very accommodating and

00:15:46.420 you know willing to talk through you know every part of that process and when you when you talk to

00:15:51.860 him i mean this has been decades since that happened i mean has he come to peace with ever not in not

00:15:57.520 ever winning the masters i mean he never like he won all these other tournaments but like the master

00:16:00.860 the green jacket he never got it did he come to did has he come to peace with that yeah because he

00:16:05.680 had to right i mean it just it was you know if it wasn't that day it was not soon after that he

00:16:12.060 realized i'm never going to win one of these and so what am i going to do you know am i going to just

00:16:16.720 am i just going to consistently lament and you know rue everything that that went wrong or am i going to

00:16:24.460 see what i can sort of gain from it and learn from it you know if not if not as a professional

00:16:29.860 golfer but as a person and as a businessman and so i think he he came as close to as peace

00:16:36.280 with it as as you can and as you talk to him like how do you think it's that that experience of you

00:16:43.140 know not achieving that goal that he had how did that influence his post-golf career or and even

00:16:48.740 not even his career but just him as a person did he become like more approachable with is that one of

00:16:52.940 the things that happened a hundred percent i think you know again it was like a real humbling

00:16:57.000 moment he became a much more approachable probably a little bit more willing to laugh at himself and

00:17:02.320 make fun of himself i mean greg norman appeared appeared naked in the espn body issue at age

00:17:07.420 whatever it was 61 or something like that i mean there's a little bit of hubris there still

00:17:10.540 but it's also a little bit of humility like listen i've already been you know exposed in other ways

00:17:15.500 earlier in my career this is no big deal and you know professionally as a as a kind of a businessman

00:17:20.140 he's got a you know big line of clothing and wine he's got a huge sort of multi-faceted business

00:17:27.920 and i think he's had a lot of successes but also some failures and he always says you know because

00:17:33.380 i failed in such spectacular ways you know on the golf course i'm willing to be you know more flexible

00:17:39.680 with you know setbacks and failures and other aspects of my life yeah one of the stories too is

00:17:45.640 like he would if he would have won the masters he would have been one of the first australians to win

00:17:49.100 the masters but then i guess a couple years ago one australian guy actually won yes and norman kind

00:17:55.280 of i mean he's a really competitive guy if i were norman i mean it'd be easy to see like i'm going to

00:18:00.760 be resentful of this i could have been me but it seemed like norman he didn't do that he was really

00:18:05.280 supportive of this guy yeah well again that's like to your earlier question right it's like did he come

00:18:09.940 to did he did he come to peace with it well at that point when adam scott wins the masters in 2013

00:18:15.160 reg norman is you know well past his prime as a player and he realizes well i'm not going to win

00:18:20.380 one and the mature and sort of admirable thing to do is is throw my arms around this guy and and

00:18:28.500 celebrate his successes which is you know not something that you can easily do but a lot easier

00:18:33.200 to do when you've had some practice as a as a loser and something that i mean i think what he did

00:18:38.360 would allow him to do that and you talk about this too is you know the way norman talked about his

00:18:43.360 failure like i think after he lost his family was just despondent and i think he said he's like hey

00:18:48.340 look yeah i didn't get it but look i've made so much money hitting a little white ball so we're

00:18:53.520 fine we're gonna be okay i mean he did some reframing to help him i don't know help him digest

00:18:58.460 the loss well 100 and that and that's like a big theme throughout throughout the book and throughout

00:19:04.940 all these stories is you know with every loss there is inevitable pain but in order to sort of

00:19:12.340 move forward you got to find you got to frame it in a way that's palatable to you and so for him

00:19:17.380 it's you know it was that it was look at all the look at all the things that have gone my way in

00:19:21.840 life am i really going to complain about this it was also saying you know here are the lessons i can

00:19:26.880 learn from it and i think again going back to this idea that like not the most approachable guy

00:19:32.740 beforehand you know through this loss became you know far more relatable than than ever before and was

00:19:40.340 embraced in ways that he never would have been had he just you know cruised to victory we're gonna

00:19:45.420 take a quick break for your word from our sponsors and now back to the show all right so another famous

00:19:52.100 quote-unquote loser you talk about is michael dukakis who famously lost the presidential race to george hw

00:19:58.100 bush i guess that was 86 that was 88 88 so some of our listeners are probably too young to remember

00:20:04.840 the 1988 presidential election i was probably eight at the time or six so what did so let's talk about

00:20:10.620 what was his career like before he ran for president and then just talk about his his presidential

00:20:14.540 campaign and why it became like synonymous with losing yeah well i mean to answer your last question

00:20:20.980 first it became sometimes losing because he's kind of like the poster boy for just getting completely

00:20:25.040 blown out like it was you know he he was you know a really one-sided one-sided loser in that election

00:20:31.460 and sort of humiliating like you know you look at all the elections over recent years they're usually

00:20:36.160 you know a couple points margins one way or the other and dukakis it was never even close so

00:20:40.700 he's sort of this guy you know even if you are young and you don't really know it he's sort of

00:20:45.380 synonymous with blowouts and so how does a guy look at himself knowing that so that's one of the

00:20:50.900 reasons why i was intrigued talking to him i actually you know when i when i set out to talk to him i

00:20:55.080 didn't really know the full story of his career prior to that point and you know what's interesting

00:21:01.260 is that he was a guy who his big goal was to be governor of massachusetts you know went to harvard

00:21:06.700 had some early success in government ran for governor of massachusetts uh won the election

00:21:11.400 and then four years later he lost the democratic primary for for re-election i mean that's never

00:21:18.360 happens right you're the incumbent governor and he was defeated by a challenger and you know he's he

00:21:24.820 talks about that as being like an absolute gut punch the real the you know far worse than the

00:21:30.100 presidency because he was voted out of office and it was a real sort of referendum on everything he

00:21:37.480 had done wrong in in in office and the amazing thing about that is you know he has he has four

00:21:45.000 years to think about it and think about next steps and he takes a look at what he did in his first go

00:21:50.760 around as governor and what he could have done better and you know sort of scratches his claw scratches

00:21:55.220 and claws his way back to to run again and he wins this time and he says you know i was a much

00:22:02.020 much better governor in the second go around in large part because i learned from all the things

00:22:08.000 i did wrong in my in my first term you know i wasn't nearly as uh interested in other people's

00:22:14.520 opinions i kind of just you know pushed through my agenda without really listening to other people

00:22:18.960 and it was really detrimental and because he was such a better governor second time around learning

00:22:25.340 from his mistakes he has you know great success starts to get a national reputation ends up winning

00:22:31.480 the nomination for the democratic primary in 1988 and again you know early on in that campaign

00:22:39.340 midway through the summer he actually was beating george hw bush in a lot of the polls and it looked

00:22:43.940 like he was going to win and then you know we can talk about all the things that went wrong from there

00:22:47.640 yeah so yeah what what did go wrong like he had it like it looked like he's going to win but then

00:22:51.400 it just went went south real fast yeah well and the interesting thing kind of back to back to this

00:22:57.500 idea of losing versus failing well what happened in that campaign was like that was a real turning

00:23:04.040 point in national politics because george hw bush his campaign went got got pretty dirty like they

00:23:09.880 they went after dukakis in a in a pretty savage way there was some campaign ads they ran about his

00:23:16.020 crime record that were probably probably unfair you know subjectively or i'll say objectively speaking

00:23:21.920 and they there was an episode where dukakis sort of was riding on a tank and he wore a helmet and he

00:23:28.180 just looked comically bad like it was a bad look and they pounced on him and they just hammered him

00:23:32.460 and you know think about think about national politics now all this stuff seems pretty tame

00:23:36.980 comparatively speaking back then it was pretty vicious and you know you would think all these years

00:23:43.260 later the michael dukakis would say yeah the reason i lost is they fought they fought dirty and it was

00:23:48.280 unfair and that's why i lost and that would be the way a lot of people would frame the loss and he was

00:23:53.600 like actually no you know they did what they needed to do and i didn't respond the right way you know i

00:23:58.440 could have responded to all those things and i could have found a you know a better way to answer

00:24:05.240 a lot of the charges that were lobbed against me and i never did and that's on me and that's a really

00:24:11.420 impressive stance to take because again a lot of the a lot of what we talk about in the book is

00:24:17.600 understanding you know when is someone else and when is it you and to be able to point to your own

00:24:26.580 shortcomings and be really honest about that is a really it's a really healthy thing to do and i would

00:24:32.980 submit it's a really impressive thing to do because it shows that you're always you're always looking

00:24:38.680 to to be better and even now he's you know 80 plus years old his his willingness to accept that and

00:24:46.460 acknowledge that is as i think um is a real good lesson for the rest of us yeah i mean i think you

00:24:51.880 use him as an example you bring in this research about growth mindset fixed mindset from carol duweck

00:24:57.000 and you know it seems like dukakis had a growth mindset he never like thought well i i lost that's

00:25:01.920 the way it is there's nothing i can do about it it was well i lost there's something i could have done

00:25:06.300 maybe i could have done something differently and that's a good attitude to have and it's it's a

00:25:09.480 hard i mean look it's really hard to do it's really hard to take the blame for a loss particularly on

00:25:14.220 such a magnificent level but you can definitely grow if you do totally and i just think you know

00:25:19.420 blaming my my experience my view is that blaming very rarely leads anywhere productive and so

00:25:29.740 you know the more that you can sort of just look at look at your part of the the equation and you

00:25:36.280 feel like there's a little bit of there's a little bit of power in that like i you know here's what i

00:25:40.200 could have done here's what i should have done it's a lot better than saying all these you know

00:25:43.420 forces conspired against me so one of my favorite stories you highlight in the book is the story of

00:25:48.340 susan lucci which is interesting because like i'm not she's a she's a for those who aren't familiar

00:25:51.720 she's a soap opera star i'm not i never watched soap opera except like when i was sick in elementary

00:25:56.920 school and it was on after the price is right and that was the only thing on but her story would

00:26:02.020 really i mean it was captivating so for those who don't know who is susan lucci and what's her story

00:26:06.940 about failing or losing yeah i mean it's funny i feel like i'm dating myself with all these those

00:26:12.180 stories because like you know they are kind of a little bit more my generation which it doesn't

00:26:16.020 sound like we're that far apart but like you know yeah if you're right now susan lucci's name doesn't

00:26:20.660 mean much but she was this soap opera actress not that i was a soap opera viewer myself but like she

00:26:26.340 you know the one thing you knew about soap opera was that you know there was going to be an emmy

00:26:29.580 awards and then susan lucci was going to be nominated and she was going to lose and it was like it was

00:26:33.740 comical literally 19 times she was nominated for a daytime emmy award and she lost to the point where

00:26:40.120 it was sort of like a pop culture joke you know people would refer to you know person x or you know

00:26:45.960 team x as the susan lucci of this you know the buffalo bills when they lost in four straight super

00:26:51.260 bowls were the susan lucci of football you know and you can go down the line like that was like a kind

00:26:55.480 of a running joke and so when i was you know researching the book and thinking about the book

00:26:59.500 i'm like i wonder what susan lucci actually thinks about being people being called the susan lucci of

00:27:03.960 of this because of of their proficiency in losing and it turns out she had a really great story to

00:27:08.960 tell and there's like you know there's a number of levels to it one was first of all you know asking

00:27:15.200 her in your view you were nominated for all these emmy awards and you lost you know why was that the

00:27:20.640 case what did you learn from it and she said actually there were things i learned from it i realized that

00:27:24.260 you know in talking to judges and learning from judges there were some things that that i had done

00:27:30.060 in my performance and in my my acting that rub people the wrong way or rub judges the wrong way

00:27:36.680 she was like overly dramatic or whatever whatever those elements were she actually saw there were

00:27:40.900 there were parts of it that were they were off-putting to to people who who saw her and even as this

00:27:48.900 you know larger than life star you know exorbitantly wealthy and a bit of a diva she was like well you

00:27:55.440 know what i gotta do something about this because it's obviously an area that i need to to improve

00:27:59.460 upon so she did that the other thing was she had a family and and kids and a son ironically enough who

00:28:06.840 was a you know a very good high level you know competitive golfer played college golf and made a go

00:28:12.640 as a professional and he had his own sort of ups and downs trying to make it on tour and he said you

00:28:19.940 know what amazingly enough i was i learned how to sort of stomach a lot of the adversity that i faced

00:28:26.840 trying to make it on tour from my mom and watching her approach to her profession and sort of you know

00:28:33.260 in her own way being kicked in the stomach every year and getting up and going to work the next day

00:28:38.500 and trying to be better and it was it ended up being really instructive to him so you know it was

00:28:45.320 a it was a bit of a symbolic story there you know like the the ultimate loser you know what what can

00:28:50.600 you learn from her and and in her case there were some real tangible lessons both for her internally

00:28:55.380 and also for the people around her did did she have like a sense of humor about it like or did she did

00:29:01.400 she really did it really ping her to like not not win i think both i think both i think you know i think

00:29:06.440 it hurt i think she talked about how she would go to these emmy awards and you know hope for the best

00:29:12.000 and get dressed up and they would have the camera on her as soon as they announced the winner and

00:29:16.960 she'd have to kind of have that fake smile that you always see and she's like that sucked that was

00:29:21.320 really hard so it did really hurt her but she also had a great sense of humor like she was on

00:29:25.360 saturday night live as a host you know and the only reason she was the host is because she was the

00:29:29.340 consummate loser and people knew her for that and you know she did a bunch of commercials that sort of

00:29:34.160 poke fun at her so you know you had to have a sense of humor and you know again going back to

00:29:37.780 that greg norman idea of humility you know that's an you know having having a sense of humor about

00:29:42.240 these failures in your life is is the ultimate sign of humility and and she obviously exhibited that

00:29:47.820 well and because she had that growth mindset i mean she actually took the feedback and tried to

00:29:51.360 get better even like 19 i mean she was like a veteran at this point like i mean she at that point

00:29:56.040 she could have just rested on her laurels but she continually tried to get better the results she

00:30:00.460 ended up actually winning she did yeah and you know she won in her i think it was her 20th try or

00:30:05.280 you know again when did when did you know think about someone who you were willing to embrace at

00:30:10.800 that point you know like a great a great success that everyone wanted to to celebrate is when when

00:30:15.740 susan lucci finally won a daytime emmy again none of us knew anything about daytime emmy's or cared

00:30:20.520 about it but you just knew this person kept going every year kept losing and then finally broke through

00:30:25.640 and won it's a you know it's a great story that people can feel can feel really good about so one

00:30:30.840 of the gut-wrenching stories that you told was the story of dan jensen who was one of the greatest

00:30:35.800 speed skaters in history like he was setting world records he's winning all these world championships

00:30:39.820 but when it came to the olympics he would just choke magnificently and he wouldn't even medal yeah

00:30:45.600 like what was going on there what why why would he perform so well in every other competition but when

00:30:51.380 he came to the olympics he would just just fall apart yeah um there's a lot of things were going

00:30:56.120 on you know i think looking back at the book it's been three or four years i think the dan jansen

00:31:00.900 chapter ended up being probably one of my favorites because there's so many layers to it and it touches

00:31:06.820 on you know a number of things we already talked about but for one thing you know the the the real

00:31:11.660 tragic story that is part of dan jansen's larger story is that in 1988 when he was the clear

00:31:19.980 favorite to win the 500 meter speed skating event the morning of the race his sister died she had

00:31:25.840 leukemia they were very close he literally talked her on the phone that morning and she passed away

00:31:30.920 right before he started to started the race and they show him on national tv the race starts and he

00:31:38.040 falls you know a few strides into the race understandably so he's just you know kind of a ghost

00:31:43.080 and not really there and then two days later there's a thousand meters even worse in a way

00:31:49.000 he is leading the race he's going to win for his sister all these things and in the final stretch he

00:31:55.800 falls again and you know again doesn't meddle doesn't even come close and heart-wrenching stuff

00:32:01.600 four years later you know the the memories of his sister are are still there but you know he's still

00:32:09.640 back to being the the top speed skater in the world and had one world championships but still

00:32:14.960 hadn't won an olympic medal goes to the olympics in alberville france and same thing doesn't fall but

00:32:20.940 you know really underperforms in both both of his races and now it becomes this thing and so

00:32:26.740 so now you have this guy first of all it's like the you know how do you get past that when there's

00:32:33.660 clearly like this kind of mental block well he starts working with a sports psychologist by the name

00:32:38.000 of dr jim lair and there's a lot of kind of unpacking to do about everything that had happened

00:32:44.040 and you know we mentioned we used the word framing before about you know framing what had happened to

00:32:49.740 him to that point and he had to to kind of first of all look at what happened the first time when he

00:32:57.420 fell after his sister died and realize that you know that was what he needed to do like there's a you

00:33:03.700 know it's a really deep story but like dr jim lair and jansen had decided that that in some at some

00:33:10.040 subconscious level dan jansen had decided that he wasn't ready to win a gold medal when he was still

00:33:16.080 mourning and that you know he almost fell not on purpose but you know he fell there was a reason why

00:33:22.500 he fell in the way that he did and then it ended up being a little bit more of a more understandable

00:33:29.700 or relatable episode where when you get into certain events and you put all your focus on the result as

00:33:37.880 opposed to the process that can be really detrimental and you know it became one of these

00:33:44.060 things where dan jansen you know whatever you know 364 days out of the year focuses on skating his best

00:33:51.760 and his preparation training and but on the olympic in the olympics he was thinking about i want to win

00:33:56.680 a gold medal i want to win a gold medal he's standing at the at the at the starting line and

00:33:59.880 that's all he's thinking about and that's a really dangerous and unhealthy way to approach really

00:34:05.620 anything and the turning point for him was was just that so he had one more chance the 1994 olympics and

00:34:11.660 he decided that i'm gonna i don't care about winning a gold medal anymore he really started to think

00:34:17.000 about i'm just gonna devote myself to the process of training and skating and and enjoying what that

00:34:23.660 journey is and letting go and in doing so in his very last race he set a world record and he won the

00:34:31.920 gold medal and so there's just like a you know it's just an amazing story a ton of different lessons in

00:34:37.680 there and and really inspirational yeah that lesson the big takeaway from is like focusing on process

00:34:42.860 not results that idea it's very visceral in sports because there's so many other stories like dan

00:34:47.300 jensen's where he had these people who performed at the top of their game but they got started getting

00:34:51.220 focused on the results and then they just crashed and then they have this reboot period where they're

00:34:55.980 like i'm gonna learn how to enjoy the sport just because i enjoy it totally it's like the most it's in

00:35:00.680 some ways it's very counterintuitive which is in order for you to achieve the thing you want the

00:35:05.560 most you have to almost trick yourself into not caring about it too much and find yourself finding

00:35:11.440 something else to focus on and you know i'm in the golf world that's kind of my profession

00:35:15.860 and there's so many stories about guys who like rather than think about making birdie here i want

00:35:21.000 to think about just making a really good swing here and just you know putting a really good stroke on

00:35:24.300 this putt and and um that that is a far more effective and you know constructive way to be then

00:35:32.060 you know i really want to win this tournament or you know make this birdie yeah i mean that's where

00:35:36.920 you're getting philosophical there because like the bhagavagita talks about that it's like

00:35:40.020 one of the things it says like you have the right to the work but not to the fruits

00:35:43.680 so you just yeah you just you got to focus on the work and just don't care about the results

00:35:47.600 a hundred and it's and it's and it's really hard to do but i guarantee you it's a far more

00:35:52.920 beneficial way of being and i would you know i would also argue that you know it's also allows you

00:36:00.480 to frame everything that happens as a result of those efforts in a much healthier way because if

00:36:07.100 you're focusing on the process and you do fall short you can say well i achieved my goal because

00:36:11.640 my my goal here was to be faithful to the process to do all the things i i could do and could control

00:36:18.200 to be successful and if if i did all those things i'm not going to really lament falling short so so

00:36:25.540 one of the hardest things about losing particularly for athletes i think this is really hard for them

00:36:29.720 because their whole identity gets tied up in their their sport um this can happen to other people

00:36:35.940 too in business or work or whatever but like whenever you lose like as a greg norman like the

00:36:41.780 only thing you do is golf like that's hard or worse yet like you lose like you can't do the thing

00:36:47.460 anymore that's you've based your whole identity around and you use sarah hess a soccer player in her

00:36:53.560 career to highlight what do you do like how do you handle loss where you you can't even do the thing

00:36:58.580 that you love and you've you spent your whole life building your life around yeah and i did use sarah

00:37:04.540 as the example and there are you know there are examples everywhere of this of people having to

00:37:10.500 kind of like look at their identity and what they're associating with and trying to find a way to push

00:37:15.560 forward and in her case it was you know she was a star of soccer player u.s women's national team she's

00:37:22.760 on that 99 team that that won the women's world cup and then you know a year later she's on the bench

00:37:28.140 and she was miserable and then not long after that she blew her knee out and had you know very severe

00:37:35.680 reactions to a knee surgery and basically was really sick and along the way her entire identity of being

00:37:43.840 you know an elite athlete is gone and she's this sickly person who's not playing anymore and not doing

00:37:50.660 what she loves and not feeling good about herself and you know that's that's really difficult whether

00:37:57.820 you're a professional athlete or if it's if it's your job or whatever it is and you know in her case

00:38:03.560 it kind of forced her to find again like framing find something to cling to and find another way of

00:38:12.920 sort of building herself back up and and feeling good so you know there was a couple things she did

00:38:19.020 one was one it was very apparent she wasn't going to play soccer anymore she sought to get her degree

00:38:24.340 in psychology and became a you know psychologist and ironically enough she works with a lot of high

00:38:29.040 level athletes and a lot of her work is in you know dealing and helping them deal with the pressures

00:38:35.740 that athletes face and you know having to frame success and obviously framing when their careers go

00:38:41.080 sideways or go away altogether so that was kind of one way that she dealt with it and the other way she

00:38:47.120 dealt with it was personally again this is someone who had like a really serious allergic reaction and

00:38:54.020 a knee surgery and they were afraid she was going to die and couldn't walk and in the middle of this

00:39:00.000 really intense period of rehabilitation she says you know what i'm going to try to run the new york

00:39:04.960 marathon which was like lunacy like they were like you can't walk and she said you know i'm going to try

00:39:09.820 to do it and she would literally walk for five minutes on the west side highway in new york until she

00:39:15.140 started crying and then it was five minutes became 10 minutes and 10 minutes became you know

00:39:18.780 three or four miles and she ran the new york marathon through pain but you know kind of the use of sheer

00:39:25.160 will and it was just kind of finding something else that she could build toward and so you know the lesson

00:39:31.200 that sarah has is obviously persistence but it's also about you know when things are taking from you you

00:39:35.740 have to find something else to look as your new mountaintop and you know a goal that you can build toward

00:39:41.920 and you know she's a she's a real lesson in that no i thought that was really good i think it's

00:39:47.480 interesting she found it it was like you know it wasn't completely new like it was tangential like

00:39:51.300 she found something that was related to what she was doing before but differently yeah completely i mean

00:39:57.180 again just like you know the the ask is not for you to reinvent yourself completely where you've you

00:40:02.840 know flushed away everything else you've experienced to that point it's you know finding the finding the

00:40:08.200 elements that you still can use in a new context yeah i've known i mean even like for athletes who

00:40:15.480 don't lose like they they had a great career but their career ends maybe they're collegiate athlete

00:40:20.180 they're not going to go on to the pros that can be hard because they have to figure out what i'm

00:40:23.560 going to do now and the ones that i i've seen that they've they thrive and succeed like they find

00:40:28.140 something that allows them to stay connected to the sport but differently they might become a coach or

00:40:32.680 they become a manager or they get involved in i don't know i mean some something related but

00:40:37.920 like they they reinvent themselves but they build off what they did before yeah and again i think

00:40:42.420 like we always think about we always hear about athletes in this setting i think it's like

00:40:46.000 you know these guys who are gods in their teens and 20s and then their careers and and there's not

00:40:53.860 the same level of adulation or the same level of sort of positive reinforcement you know how do you

00:40:59.680 how do you replicate that and the the answer is you don't you have to find sort of satisfaction

00:41:07.280 and um you know positive reinforcement usually from within which is you know that's that's not

00:41:14.360 always an easy thing to do when you've you know been in stadiums full of 80 000 people screaming your

00:41:18.580 name so one final group you talked about in the book was this columbia football team this was like

00:41:24.220 from the 80s first off i didn't know columbia had a football team um that's part of the problem

00:41:29.400 that's part of the problem so like what was their story like what made these what made these guys

00:41:33.300 unique and what can we learn about losing from them yeah and another great story and again kind

00:41:37.760 of dating myself because this is like in the same way that susan lucci was sort of synonymous with

00:41:41.640 losing when i was growing up so was the columbia football team because they had lost 45 straight

00:41:46.980 games in the mid 80s and the ivy league which is obviously not the highest level of college football

00:41:52.000 but but you know these were this was real football it's division 1a i guess still 1a and you know

00:41:58.040 there were guys in those programs who literally went to college as freshmen in the fall and graduated

00:42:03.880 as seniors in the spring and they never won a football game and so two questions right that

00:42:09.600 occurred to me was a how did you deal in the moment how did you get through that period when it was

00:42:16.220 you know all you know incredibly frustrating and humbling and other students and you know you're

00:42:22.860 making fun of you and newspapers are are mocking you that's the first question the second question

00:42:27.980 is how did it shape you afterwards and you know i talked to i don't know a dozen of these guys

00:42:33.680 and a couple things were very clear one was none of them said it was easy all of them said it was

00:42:37.980 incredibly difficult but they said that first of all they all benefited from it in ways that they

00:42:45.380 insist they would not have benefited if they were even if they were you know middle of the road

00:42:51.420 like they said the fact that it was so difficult and so painful made us hungrier

00:42:56.980 once we entered the workforce it made us really loyal and committed to one another because we had

00:43:04.960 been through this this really cathartic experience together and you know we're we're our team is

00:43:12.140 closer than other teams because of this you know shared misery they experienced and they're also you

00:43:20.860 know like to a man far more persistent and you know dedicated in their professional and personal

00:43:28.000 lives than probably other other teams like they say you know all of us have been married for 20 years

00:43:32.680 plus all of us a lot of us have had the same job like this you know the word they use is stick

00:43:36.980 to itiveness like they they had to develop that skill as a result of having as much disappointment as

00:43:45.160 they did in their in their football careers and so you know i love that story because i love talking

00:43:50.860 to these guys who are still you know they're all they're older than me so they're all in their 50s

00:43:53.980 now all really close like you know kind of a band of brothers not to like liking what they went through

00:43:58.980 to guys who go to war because that's obviously a whole other level but you know on some level there's

00:44:03.960 this real you know bonding moment that takes place when you go through something like that together

00:44:08.840 and why do you think they were able to do that because i think a lot of people if they just lost

00:44:12.860 over and over you'd get jaded they'd be like the why bother i think you had that experience with one

00:44:16.620 of your kids right it's like they got smoked by this hockey team and they're just like the second

00:44:20.960 half is like why bother go out like we're gonna get our butt kicked so how do you how do you avoid

00:44:25.520 the why bother effect well i mean i think i think some of it's testament to the people who stuck around

00:44:30.560 because it's worth noting that i don't have the numbers in front of me but like you know if there

00:44:34.300 were 25 guys who started as freshmen that year on that team only 12 were stuck around as seniors so at

00:44:42.340 some point you know guys did drop off and did kind of enter that why bother phase and so you know one

00:44:49.240 would argue that there is you know sort of certain guys just have some inherent resilience and they

00:44:53.380 were they were willing to stick it out more so than others but it's also worth noting i think i think

00:44:58.140 it's in the same chapter i talk about the fact that like this idea that some people are like naturally

00:45:02.160 more resilient maybe maybe you can start out that way but resilience is something you can very much

00:45:06.780 develop and and kind of foster over time and for whatever reason the guys on that group did do

00:45:13.140 that and i think i think at some point and this probably probably was true is that you know there's

00:45:19.260 a there's a little bit of wanting to stick it to everyone else by showing them that they're not going

00:45:23.540 to quit you know like all these guys dropped off and and you know what i i want to prove either to

00:45:29.040 myself or to others and or to the guys who are still with me that that i want to i want to see

00:45:34.500 this through and um you know it's it's an incredibly impressive skill and you know again this guy nick leone

00:45:42.280 who i still keep in touch with who is one of the you know kind of quote unquote stars that team

00:45:46.400 he says that when i went for job interviews like you know it was actually a real asset because people

00:45:53.280 were so impressed that i saw this through and i sustained as much as i did in college

00:45:57.480 so you beginning this conversation you said you started this book because you had sons in sports

00:46:02.280 and you want and they had some like meltdowns because they lost and you wanted to teach them

00:46:05.560 about losing have you been able to like has this stuff rubbed off on them or like when you try to

00:46:10.240 like tell them about the columbia football team they just like roll their eyes and like yeah yeah yeah

00:46:13.660 dad like do you see an effect i do so they're actually it's funny because they're literally like

00:46:18.740 lurking in the background while i'm talking right now because they're doing this homeschooling thing but

00:46:22.780 the short answer is yes they are incredibly sick of hearing me talk about it because i've been talking

00:46:29.140 about it for years you know i'm never going to say that like oh they're you know model losers now

00:46:35.640 because of me you know they still struggle in ways but i do think the one thing i say that's an important

00:46:40.300 point to make in the book is like being able to accept or embrace losing is not does not suggest that

00:46:47.480 you're not competitive in fact you probably are more competitive if you're if you're able to lose well

00:46:51.580 and it doesn't mean that you're not going to have these these moments of frustration the difference

00:46:56.220 is that a day later two days later you are better equipped to put it in perspective and and learn

00:47:04.000 from it so like the the most recent example is my my oldest son who's again lurking in the background

00:47:08.880 has become a pretty good golfer he's already better than me and he's he's starting to enter some junior

00:47:13.340 tournaments and he played his first kind of junior tournament he was 15 years old in a division with 15 to

00:47:19.620 18 year old so already kind of up up against it against older kids and you know it was really

00:47:24.680 difficult and he you know when it was when it was you know as soon as as soon as it was over he's

00:47:31.460 like i'm never doing that again you know i want to quit i can't play golf all those things that we

00:47:35.680 all go through and we're you know incredibly frustrated and then you know a day later two days

00:47:40.920 later he's like actually the experience was kind of fun i i enjoyed parts of it i i want to do it

00:47:47.260 again i learned about what i did wrong what i need to work on as a result of it and you know i'm not

00:47:53.580 at all taking credit for him developing that mindset but i think you know he's more willing to

00:47:59.780 to go through that exercise of sort of seeing what the upside would be you know maybe as a result of

00:48:07.880 me you know hammering it as much as i have been over these past few years all right well hey sam

00:48:13.140 this has been a great conversation is there some place people go to learn more about your work

00:48:16.260 what you're doing now yeah well i'm the digital editorial director of golf digest you know so

00:48:21.060 obviously golf digest.com is is my my professional home and obviously plenty of stories of of losers

00:48:27.220 there and you know it's it is a topic that i tend to gravitate toward just still even writing about

00:48:31.800 golf so you know i've definitely read about that and then i have my own my own website sam

00:48:36.280 wyman.com which has more information about the book when it losing i'm on twitter sam wyman so you

00:48:40.880 know people can get me there for sure all right well sam wyman thanks for your time it's been a pleasure

00:48:45.240 oh it's been my pleasure thank you my guest name is sam wyman he's the author of the book

00:48:50.140 win at losing it's available amazon.com and bookstores everywhere check out our show notes

00:48:53.660 at awim.is slash win at losing where you find links to resources where we delve deeper into this topic

00:48:58.100 well that wraps up another edition of the awim podcast check out our website at

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00:49:41.300 listen anyway in podcast but put what you've heard into action

The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

#646： How to Win at Losing

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