The Art of Manliness - #648： Lessons in Building Rapport from Experts in Terrorist Interrogation

00:00:00.000 I'm Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.000 What do you imagine when you imagine a terrorist being interrogated by an intelligence officer?

00:00:15.340 The former getting roughed up, the latter yelling, banging his fist on the table, and

00:00:18.780 demanding that the detainee talk?

00:00:20.540 My guests, they argue that using force in this way to get what you want isn't effective

00:00:24.200 when you're dealing with a terrorist, or for that matter, a teenager.

00:00:27.000 Their names are Lawrence and Emily Allison, and they're a married pair of forensic psychologists,

00:00:30.920 as well as the authors of Rapport, the Four Ways to Read People.

00:00:33.920 We begin our conversation with how, through their extensive experience in training police,

00:00:37.340 military, and security agencies like the FBI and CIA, on how to conduct interrogations of

00:00:41.720 criminals and terrorists, the Allisons discover that literal and metaphorical browbeating was

00:00:45.800 ineffective in inducing communication and cooperation, and that methods which build rapport were much

00:00:50.940 more successful.

00:00:52.140 We then discuss why building rapport in order to handle conflict, avoid arguments, and create

00:00:55.700 connections is important not only in interrogation rooms, but at work and at home.

00:00:59.300 From there, we dive into the four elements that make up this model of interpersonal communication,

00:01:03.100 the last of which we demonstrate with some role play.

00:01:05.260 And we end our conversation with the idea of the animal wheel, which different personality

00:01:08.620 styles are represented by a mouse, lion, T-Rex, and monkey, and the importance of understanding

00:01:12.740 your own interpersonal style, and that of the person you're engaging with, so you can predict

00:01:16.420 how they'll react and adapt accordingly.

00:01:18.460 After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash rapport.

00:01:25.700 All right, Lawrence Allison, Emily Allison, welcome to the show.

00:01:34.580 Thank you very much, Brett.

00:01:35.500 How are you doing?

00:01:36.140 Thank you.

00:01:36.920 Doing good.

00:01:37.700 Well, it's great to have you.

00:01:38.780 You two co-authored a book, your husband and wife, but you co-authored a book called Rapport,

00:01:44.040 The Four Ways to Read People.

00:01:46.360 And this book is, I think it's like a layman summation of both of your background in forensic

00:01:53.520 psychology.

00:01:54.480 So let's talk about that.

00:01:55.960 What's your backgrounds?

00:01:57.220 And then how did that background lead to this book?

00:02:00.120 Sure, sure.

00:02:00.900 So as you say, we're both forensic psychologists.

00:02:03.520 I guess we've got slightly different emphases.

00:02:05.820 Mine, in simple terms, I've worked for the last 25 years, mainly with police, law enforcement,

00:02:12.440 security services, and military.

00:02:13.820 And I guess you could categorize what I do as being interested in the decision-making of

00:02:19.820 those people and in the way in which they communicate.

00:02:23.340 And I guess a lot of my work has been directed at catching the bad guys, whereas with Emily?

00:02:28.100 It's probably tracing the bad guys.

00:02:30.160 I come at it from much more of a counseling angle, I think.

00:02:34.880 And again, for the last sort of 20 years, have worked with various groups of offenders,

00:02:40.720 both within the criminal justice system and also in the community, and lots and lots of

00:02:45.800 emphasis on domestic abuse in particular.

00:02:48.820 So violent offenders is really my sort of main population that I've been working with.

00:02:54.240 And then a few years ago, both of you got involved with a commission on interrogating terrorists.

00:03:01.100 How did that happen?

00:03:02.800 Yeah, so in the wake of President Obama's inauguration, there was a change in mindset in

00:03:08.040 relation to what would work with high-value detainees or high-value targets or terrorists.

00:03:13.320 Certainly around the controversy post 9-11 with the so-called enhanced interrogation tactics

00:03:18.980 slash torture, the view was, A, this was morally reprehensible, B, it was ethically questionable,

00:03:27.400 and C, it was illegal.

00:03:29.220 And also, D, pretty importantly, it didn't work.

00:03:32.100 So there were some tactics that were being used, which I don't know how much you want

00:03:35.800 to get into the details of that because they're pretty unpleasant, that were being used in

00:03:39.900 the wake of 9-11, that were really counterproductive in terms of the intelligence and information

00:03:44.320 that was being sought.

00:03:45.320 So with that in mind, Obama's initial idea was to achieve two things through what was

00:03:51.600 called the high-value detainee interrogation group, which still exists.

00:03:55.460 It's partly DOD, CIA, and FBI.

00:03:58.220 It's a tri-service program.

00:04:01.000 And the two objectives were to generate an elite group of mobile deployed interrogators

00:04:07.220 to go into hostile environments and do interrogations, but do them properly, do them backed by science,

00:04:13.640 and do them according to the rule of the law.

00:04:16.440 So where we came in was in relation to the science bit, because up until that point, prior

00:04:21.700 to 2012, we'd been developing various different methods to look essentially at what worked

00:04:26.700 with people that were highly resistant.

00:04:28.340 And so we came on board in 2012, and every year since then, we've been successful in

00:04:34.980 securing research funding to do work on what works in these high-value interrogations.

00:04:40.320 And I think what really demarcates our work from pretty much everyone else's in that group

00:04:45.600 of people that receive funding was, unlike a lot of psychologists that have done a lot of

00:04:49.580 work in relation to what happens in a laboratory with a student as a proxy or a terrorist, our work

00:04:55.600 was on the real thing.

00:04:56.440 So we've secured nearly 2,000 hours' worth of material of real field-based interrogations

00:05:02.260 with people from ISIS, al-Qaeda, extreme right-wing, the Guard of Shirekhana, looking at Irish

00:05:08.300 paramilitary interrogations.

00:05:10.240 And so we scoured that database, largest database in the world, to look at what worked.

00:05:16.120 And, you know, maybe surprisingly to some members of the public, what worked were the rapport-based

00:05:21.700 methods, the so-called soft skills, which is a term I hate, but those were the things that

00:05:26.180 worked in securing information, intelligence, and evidence.

00:05:29.760 All right.

00:05:29.860 So that's a great transition to the topic of the conversation in your book, Rapport, because

00:05:35.580 that's counterintuitive.

00:05:36.420 You think, okay, it's a bad guy.

00:05:37.720 But what you all found is that actually one of the first goals you have when you're interrogating

00:05:42.080 someone who is a detainee, potential has information that can help, is you want to establish rapport.

00:05:48.380 And I think we've all heard that word before, rapport.

00:05:50.360 But how do you two define it?

00:05:52.120 Is there like a scientific definition of rapport?

00:05:54.600 I think really the, I mean, that's the interesting thing is I think there probably wasn't up until

00:06:01.760 maybe the last 10 years where there has been quite a lot of emphasis on trying to define exactly

00:06:07.900 what rapport is.

00:06:09.800 When you look at the therapeutic literature, it's really about connection.

00:06:14.540 So it's not necessarily a kind of friendliness or getting on with others, but it's a respect

00:06:21.320 or connection that's established through communication.

00:06:25.220 So that was really important to us, that it wasn't about this simple idea of rapport

00:06:29.220 is getting people to like you.

00:06:31.240 Rapport is more about getting people to communicate with you, whether they like you or not.

00:06:36.660 And you all make a distinction in the beginning.

00:06:38.440 There's a difference between rapport and force when communications, like what would be those differences?

00:06:44.000 So I think with rapport, it's really the opposite of methods that use force.

00:06:51.320 Because whenever you're using force to try and get information out of someone, usually that's

00:06:57.400 through pressure, enticement, coercion, or threat.

00:07:03.120 And all of those things are generating fear.

00:07:06.920 So the reason the person is telling you isn't because they're choosing to, isn't because they

00:07:11.480 want to, it's because they feel frightened.

00:07:13.980 And the difficulty with bringing that into an interrogation room in particular is that

00:07:20.440 if I'm so frightened by what you might do, if I don't give you information and I don't

00:07:26.620 have any information, then I'm quite likely to feel compelled to make something up.

00:07:32.920 So you can massively impact the credibility of the information that you're actually getting

00:07:39.120 by introducing fear into an interrogation room.

00:07:43.360 When we think about our wider relationships, I think that's so important because, you know,

00:07:48.660 fear can be a part of our more intimate personal relationships as well.

00:07:53.500 You know, that kind of parenting style of, you know, wait until dad gets home attitude.

00:07:58.880 And that that just isn't a dynamic that you want to introduce into your personal relationships

00:08:04.880 either.

00:08:05.980 And it can also be in your work relationships.

00:08:07.620 You might not be like, when you use, you might use force, but not even like realize

00:08:12.680 using force.

00:08:13.280 Like if this doesn't get done, there will be consequences.

00:08:17.280 Right.

00:08:18.160 The other thing that sort of struck me that we often talk about when we're trying to get

00:08:21.320 the basic idea over to cops or military personnel is, look, as soon as you show the hand

00:08:28.200 that you are playing, which is forceful, you set up a dynamic in what you create, what

00:08:35.080 will react.

00:08:36.280 So, so reactance is if I, if I'm saying to you, you know, you better tell me this or

00:08:41.160 I'm, you know, I'm in an organizational culture, you better get this done.

00:08:44.380 I might've been thinking, do you know what?

00:08:46.100 I was going to get it done before you told me that I had to get it done.

00:08:49.260 And now I may be thinking, maybe I don't want to get this done because you've so forcefully

00:08:54.140 introduced that I have to.

00:08:55.240 So it's a bit like the other example that we always give is if I, if I say to my kid,

00:08:59.500 you can have honey nut loops or Cheerios, actually, do you know what?

00:09:01.720 I've decided you can't have the Cheerios.

00:09:03.720 Suddenly that's the thing that I wanted.

00:09:05.980 So you don't want to introduce anything, you know, someone might be working particularly

00:09:09.500 well.

00:09:10.240 As soon as you start challenging them, not on not working so well, it implants the idea

00:09:14.760 that they should, should resist.

00:09:17.140 And so you guys make this case that the ability to establish rapport, I mean, it's useful in what

00:09:21.640 you all do, obviously, but it's also just useful for everybody because it helps us in our careers

00:09:25.820 and help it make our lives more meaningful.

00:09:27.840 And based on your experience, you know, working with not just, you know, detainees, but other

00:09:32.920 people, why is, why is it so important to our wellbeing to be able to develop rapport?

00:09:38.820 Well, I think it's quite interesting because for us, you know, bringing this into a wider

00:09:43.820 context just became, you know, the seem like the right thing to do.

00:09:48.520 We were having lots of experiences where we were training, you know, very elite individuals

00:09:53.900 in a professional context.

00:09:55.960 And what we were getting was in the sort of quiet times of the training.

00:09:59.820 So over coffee or over lunch, we get people grabbing us and saying, you know, I really

00:10:03.840 want to try to use this with my teenager because we're having a really hard time getting on.

00:10:08.700 And I think we were just seeing people find it so applicable and so useful to their day-to-day

00:10:14.280 relationships.

00:10:15.740 And I think that's so important.

00:10:17.420 We talk about in the book, just how important rapport and healthy content relationships are

00:10:24.540 to your wellbeing, to your health, to your mental health, but also your physical health.

00:10:30.200 I think even Lawrence and I were quite shocked by a lot of the research that has come out

00:10:35.640 showing how even your physical health is severely impacted by poor relationships, by isolation,

00:10:43.280 by not really feeling a connection to other people.

00:10:46.960 And certainly, given what 2020 is putting us all through globally, that seems ever more

00:10:53.180 poignant now.

00:10:55.160 Yeah.

00:10:55.360 I mean, we refer to in the book the so-called blue zones.

00:10:58.380 So these are areas around the world where they've got a disproportionately high number of

00:11:04.260 millennials, people that have reached over 100.

00:11:06.180 And the only commonality between all those areas is that they value social relationships

00:11:11.800 probably more than we do elsewhere.

00:11:14.380 So loneliness really is an actual killer.

00:11:17.160 You know, it leads to ischemic heart disease, inflammation, and so on.

00:11:20.420 So just physically and in terms of mortality.

00:11:23.300 But like Em said, you know, we were repeatedly getting cops and, you know, some real tough guys

00:11:28.320 that were coming to us in the windows of our session saying, you know what, this has made

00:11:34.020 me a better husband.

00:11:35.000 This has made me a better father.

00:11:36.220 I can connect with my teenager.

00:11:37.580 I can talk more successfully to my wife.

00:11:39.880 So that's kind of why we did the book.

00:11:42.480 And I think a lot of people think that rapport is like the social skill, you either have it

00:11:46.140 or you don't.

00:11:47.100 But you guys make this case.

00:11:47.880 No, rapport, like any other skills, a skill you can develop with practice.

00:11:52.300 And if you don't use it, it can also atrophy.

00:11:55.160 I think, you know, you mentioned, you know, 2020, the year we've had.

00:11:57.600 And I think I read an article how because of social distancing, like we've gotten, like

00:12:02.460 we don't have the opportunities to flex those social muscles.

00:12:05.780 So we've kind of, a lot of people have gotten socially awkward because they haven't had the

00:12:09.000 chance to, you know, practice those rapport building skills that they were able to practice

00:12:12.960 before.

00:12:13.980 Yeah, I think that's true.

00:12:16.060 You know, we've all got out of practice a bit.

00:12:18.280 We're used to sort of talking to people over a screen, which is not quite the same.

00:12:22.280 I think you're right.

00:12:23.060 I mean, it'd be interesting to know what the consequences of this are.

00:12:26.360 And I think technology's got us so far.

00:12:28.280 And, you know, I dread to think what we would have done without it.

00:12:31.800 I mean, our son, you know, spent a lot of time on the PlayStation, but actually lots of

00:12:35.800 parents moan about this, but that was his connection to other people.

00:12:39.260 But you're right.

00:12:39.860 Those skills do atrophy.

00:12:41.000 You've got to work on them.

00:12:42.440 You know, we each have an inclination to behave in certain ways.

00:12:45.320 And some of us might have a natural flair for it.

00:12:47.360 But all of those things can be worked on.

00:12:50.620 Yeah, I'm just laughing because we've got a broadcaster over here who described it as

00:12:55.660 you need the three sentences pass now, where the first three sentences that come out of

00:13:00.980 your mouth when you're trying to have a conversation, people have to just let you off because we've

00:13:06.460 gotten so unaccustomed to those casual conversations that, you know, we're really rusty.

00:13:11.800 So we need to warm up.

00:13:14.000 No, it's true.

00:13:16.000 I've felt that before.

00:13:17.700 So let's get into rapport, what it is and how we can develop it.

00:13:20.120 And you guys lay out, there's like cornerstones of rapport.

00:13:22.560 And you developed this acronym to help people remember it's here.

00:13:26.220 It's honesty, empathy, autonomy, and reflection.

00:13:30.980 Let's talk about some of this in detail.

00:13:32.700 In detail, let's talk about honesty.

00:13:34.520 I mean, this one seems pretty straightforward.

00:13:36.280 You got to be honest with people.

00:13:38.060 But you all make the case that being honest when you're trying to

00:13:41.800 build rapport is tricky because you have to balance like being straightforward and honest,

00:13:47.100 but like not too straightforward and honest.

00:13:49.560 So how do you do that?

00:13:52.480 So I think it is interesting because now when I train in these techniques, I'll often describe

00:13:58.480 them as like walking a tightrope.

00:14:00.800 So you are constantly trying to maintain that sort of balance.

00:14:05.380 And honesty is a great example of that because what you don't want to do is be avoidant.

00:14:10.940 And, you know, you've got something that you've really got to address with somebody or a topic

00:14:14.880 that's a bit uncomfortable or awkward.

00:14:17.120 You don't want to bring it up.

00:14:18.660 So we become avoidant or vague or we don't really say what we mean.

00:14:23.120 And that's an issue.

00:14:24.460 But then you also don't want to be what I call sort of trout in the face honest, which is

00:14:29.120 like, I'm really going to whack you with exactly what I think about what's going on, because

00:14:33.680 that can come across as demanding, judgmental, and again, generate that reactance that Lawrence

00:14:39.480 was talking about.

00:14:41.340 My absolute advice then, if you're going to try and stay on that honesty tightrope, is

00:14:46.520 you need to pair that honesty with some empathy.

00:14:50.360 So all of these skills do tend to interact, but that's the kind of magic combination that

00:14:56.040 helps you deliver something honestly and not fall off either side.

00:15:00.800 Well, let's move on to empathy.

00:15:01.680 So how do you become more empathetic and what does that look like?

00:15:04.780 And like, what does that look like when you're working with a guy who potentially, you know,

00:15:08.840 is a terrorist?

00:15:10.240 So empathy is a really interesting one because it's quite a hard thing to teach.

00:15:15.780 It's really important to teach it in early experiences.

00:15:20.100 So, you know, to children, I think empathic development in children, we talk about in the

00:15:24.240 book is quite a significant, important stage for them.

00:15:28.160 But empathy, really, in the way that we're talking about it, again, it's not this kind

00:15:33.660 of soft, fluffy warmth that those are different things.

00:15:38.120 You can still be warm.

00:15:39.380 You can be sympathetic to people, but that's not empathy.

00:15:42.440 Empathy is genuinely trying to adopt their perspective.

00:15:46.980 So that means that you can't just think, well, if that was happening to me, how would I feel?

00:15:54.240 You know, what would I do?

00:15:55.240 That's a step in the right direction.

00:15:58.080 But what we're actually saying is, you know, if we've seen this, for instance, with, I'll

00:16:03.540 give you an example from our kind of interviewing context.

00:16:06.280 If you've got a suspect who is a female Pakistani background, British-born blogger, so social media 0.92

00:16:17.800 blogger, who's been arrested on suspicion of encouraging support for ISIS, and you are

00:16:25.080 a older white male British police officer, how are you going to relate to that person?

00:16:32.720 Well, empathic understanding is thinking, if I were your gender, had your background, your

00:16:40.880 ethnicity, your experiences, how might I feel in this situation?

00:16:47.500 And that is a really, you can see, that is a really difficult challenge.

00:16:52.080 So the further away things get from your direct experience, or in particular, your core values,

00:16:59.620 the harder it is to empathize.

00:17:02.820 It's still possible, but it's the level of effort you're prepared to kind of put into

00:17:08.060 that challenge.

00:17:10.860 So how would that look like on just a day-to-day, like work-a-day basis for someone who's not

00:17:15.400 interrogating potential terrorists?

00:17:18.120 Well, I think, you know, people make the mistake of, let's talk about the three levels of empathy.

00:17:23.380 Level one is, I am able to articulate how I feel about something.

00:17:29.000 Level two is, I'm able to articulate how I would feel if I was in that other person's

00:17:34.540 situation.

00:17:35.360 So in other words, you know, as Emily gave the example there, well, how would I feel if

00:17:38.860 I was, you know, in Syria, and I'd maybe been recruited to the cause?

00:17:43.500 Well, I'm not a 19-year-old female.

00:17:46.820 So level three is what you've got to do is you've got to, I mean, I like to consider

00:17:51.260 empathy as more of a process of active imagination.

00:17:54.560 I'm never going to be a 19-year-old female.

00:17:57.300 I never was.

00:17:58.420 But it's the effort that you make to try and go to that place and to try and seek the

00:18:04.060 understanding of it, which oftentimes is through listening or, you know, an act of imagination.

00:18:09.720 You know, I often draw up the fact that prior to, you know, in the Victorian era, there was

00:18:14.200 very little understanding or appreciation of what it was like to be poor until we started

00:18:21.040 to get books about it and narrative books, largely from Dickens, explaining the plight

00:18:26.160 of the poor.

00:18:26.800 And weirdly, once people started to read Dickens, they were using their imagination and engaging

00:18:32.040 with what essentially was a fiction, but nonetheless representing the reality of what was going on

00:18:36.800 in the streets.

00:18:37.760 And that's when the attitude in Britain changed towards poverty.

00:18:41.120 And that is an act of imagination.

00:18:42.500 And I guess what we're saying with empathy, you know, it is an act of imagination.

00:18:47.620 You don't have to feel warm towards the person, but you are reaching out psychologically, cognitively

00:18:52.960 and with effort to try and understand that person's positional plight.

00:18:57.940 So it sounds like empathy.

00:18:59.020 I think most people, when they think of empathy, they think of it as an emotional thing.

00:19:01.980 It's like, well, you want to see, you want to feel what they feel.

00:19:05.900 And it's not necessarily that.

00:19:06.940 It's like, you just want to understand, like intellectually, what's going on.

00:19:12.340 Yeah, I think it's kind of Mr. Spock-ish.

00:19:13.860 I don't know if, you know, I'm probably older than some of your views, but, you know, Mr.

00:19:18.240 Spock always used to say curious.

00:19:20.340 You know, it is what is going on here?

00:19:22.920 Why is this person behaving like this in front of me?

00:19:24.780 I need to find that out.

00:19:25.960 So as Em said, it's, you know, proper, true clinical counselling empathy is actually rather

00:19:32.020 cold.

00:19:32.920 It doesn't need to be.

00:19:34.140 It's not a prerequisite of it, but it's definitely a more cognitive than affect-laden issue.

00:19:40.000 I think it's interesting as well when you do try and bring that into the realm of your

00:19:44.340 personal relationships, because, you know, that can feel a bit clinical.

00:19:48.880 But I guess we're saying, if you're trying to empathize with your teenager and their situation,

00:19:54.740 you kind of need to turn off your own emotion, which is, you know, you might be thinking, well,

00:20:01.500 you know, you'll get over it.

00:20:02.860 You'll grow out of this, you know, stop being so childish or whatever.

00:20:07.640 But that's your kind of emotional mindset and value system coming into play.

00:20:13.900 Whereas instead, if you're empathizing with your teenager, you're thinking, where is your

00:20:18.260 head at, at the moment?

00:20:19.880 What are you going through?

00:20:21.500 What's this experience like for you?

00:20:23.240 What do you care about?

00:20:24.900 And that does require listening.

00:20:27.480 It requires caring enough to figure out what the answers to those questions are.

00:20:32.740 And it'll let you, I mean, going back to like, if you're interrogating terrorists, like

00:20:35.780 by being empathetic, you can figure out like what this person needs in order for you to get

00:20:41.020 the information that you're looking for, right?

00:20:42.860 They might, they might be willing to give you whatever they want, but they, they want

00:20:46.100 to know that they're going to be safe that after they give it, but you have to get, be

00:20:50.060 empathetic to understand that.

00:20:52.140 Or even, I mean, exactly. 0.73

00:20:53.800 I think that is spot on, but it's, it's also like not assuming like for some, it might be

00:20:58.820 safety for some, it might be a platform to put their message across.

00:21:03.740 And, and that's the main thing is you do have to have this kind of receptivity to think,

00:21:08.600 I want to figure you out.

00:21:10.520 I want to know what is driving you, not just assume, well, the last person like you that

00:21:17.080 I interviewed valued this.

00:21:18.800 So you probably think the same.

00:21:20.400 It's, it's a very individual thing.

00:21:23.100 I think.

00:21:23.680 I mean, perhaps as, you know, as a classic example, as Em said, there's huge danger in

00:21:28.020 assuming what makes someone tick.

00:21:29.940 We had one detainee that was involved in basically a shooting incident where they'd gone into

00:21:37.300 a shopping mall and the, you know, the, the, the attack plan was to go into a mall and basically

00:21:42.140 kill people. 0.90

00:21:43.360 And it was subsequently discovered.

00:21:45.780 And, and, and he said in the interview, look, I never, ever wanted to hurt children.

00:21:50.220 That was not my objective.

00:21:51.680 I really, really care about kids.

00:21:53.380 I didn't want to, I didn't, never wanted to hurt a child subsequently and later on in

00:21:57.880 the interview, it was discovered that that person wanted to kidnap some kids and take

00:22:02.620 them back to their country of origin.

00:22:04.920 At which point the interviewer said, well, hang on a minute ago, hang on a minute ago.

00:22:10.320 You said you didn't want to hurt kids, but you're taking them away from their parents. 0.72

00:22:13.340 And the detainee responded with, yes, because your Western government is corrupt and you're 0.94

00:22:19.880 corrupting your children.

00:22:20.980 I wanted to give them a better life.

00:22:22.540 Now, one might think, well, how, how true was that?

00:22:25.920 But it certainly came across as pretty genuine cognition about what he saw children as in

00:22:33.060 the West.

00:22:33.680 It doesn't make it right.

00:22:34.840 Can't condone it.

00:22:35.940 But the interviewer had made the assumption that the guy was lying about not wanting to hurt

00:22:40.880 kids.

00:22:41.200 And I actually think it probably was the case that that value system was so different to

00:22:47.760 the interrogators that the interrogator wasn't sufficiently alive to the possibility that

00:22:53.860 he, that he needed to find out more about the value system.

00:22:56.780 Does that make sense?

00:22:57.760 Yeah, that makes sense.

00:22:58.700 That makes sense.

00:23:00.060 We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

00:23:03.740 And now back to the show.

00:23:05.440 So we talked about honesty.

00:23:06.620 We talked about empathy.

00:23:07.680 Empathy allows you to know how to be honest without bludgeoning people.

00:23:11.200 Let's talk about autonomy.

00:23:13.280 So how does giving people autonomy build rapport and actually nudges them to doing what you

00:23:19.420 want them to do?

00:23:21.480 So, yeah, autonomy is, is a really interesting one because I think this is such a driver for

00:23:27.240 us as human beings.

00:23:28.820 We want to be in charge of our own destiny, of our own decisions.

00:23:34.760 And as soon as someone tries to constrain or control us, there's a real natural reaction to

00:23:41.580 rebel against that.

00:23:43.220 And I think this, this applies to so many different contexts.

00:23:47.620 And you can think about, I mean, certainly for me working with domestic abuse perpetrators

00:23:52.700 for, you know, a very long time, I've experienced cases where, you know, they'll be sent for

00:24:01.240 treatment and the idea is to say to them, well, it's a choice.

00:24:06.340 You can choose not to go for treatment.

00:24:08.660 But they know that if they choose not to go for treatment, that may mean they can no longer

00:24:14.020 reside at the family home.

00:24:16.260 They can no longer have access or contact with their children.

00:24:20.160 These are huge stakes for someone that mean that that's not really a choice.

00:24:25.600 That is really strong arming somebody.

00:24:27.960 So one of the rules we always say with using autonomy in a rapport context is don't dress

00:24:34.560 things up as a choice when they aren't really a choice.

00:24:39.080 So only go to the point of choice that you can actually use within your environment.

00:24:45.960 So that creates some interesting challenges for us, obviously, with suspect interviewing

00:24:50.340 as well.

00:24:51.200 You know, there's not a lot of choice about whether you're there when you've been placed

00:24:55.260 under arrest and you're being interviewed.

00:24:57.960 But I think the thing is provide choice wherever and whenever you can.

00:25:02.880 You know, in suspect interviews, we've done roleplay scenarios where we deliberately get

00:25:07.380 the actor to come in and say, look, I want a notebook to take notes.

00:25:11.300 And weirdly, sometimes the interrogators will resist giving that suspect a notebook.

00:25:15.780 And then it just becomes this massive struggle where, well, you've got a notebook.

00:25:20.360 Why can't I have a notebook?

00:25:21.420 Well, you can't have a notebook because you don't need a notebook and this is all being recorded.

00:25:24.420 What do you need the notebook for?

00:25:25.740 Well, yeah, but you've got one.

00:25:26.840 And, you know, that problem can go away.

00:25:29.160 I mean, unless that person is going to be a threat with the pen, which, you know, is

00:25:33.780 a different story.

00:25:35.120 If you can provide choice, you should.

00:25:37.440 Because as soon as you withhold that, you're creating tension that doesn't even need to

00:25:43.060 be there.

00:25:43.680 And, you know, to your question, Brett, around getting people to do what you want them to

00:25:47.540 do, the thing is, none of these techniques are tricks.

00:25:52.480 The more authentic you can be, the better.

00:25:55.200 The more genuine you can be, the better.

00:25:57.120 And actually, you know, if you genuinely want rapport with someone and they genuinely don't

00:26:01.400 want to do something, then that is absolutely their choice.

00:26:05.360 And, you know, it's enshrined in law, isn't it?

00:26:08.060 In relation to suspect interview, you do not have to say anything.

00:26:10.520 You have a right to silence.

00:26:12.680 And weirdly and counterintuitively, perhaps, the more authentically you as an interrogator

00:26:18.420 land that right to them, we always say, you know, sell properly and authentically that

00:26:24.540 they have a choice about whether they speak or not.

00:26:26.980 When it becomes procedural or perfunctory or robotic, people are much more likely to

00:26:32.580 avail themselves of that right to silence.

00:26:34.280 If it's delivered authentically and genuinely, some people actually do want to talk or they're

00:26:39.340 at least contemplating it.

00:26:41.280 And you should allow that contemplation to arise.

00:26:44.960 Don't, you know, as soon as you push, they will pull.

00:26:47.320 As soon as you're pulling on that tug of war rope, they will pull back.

00:26:51.000 So just let go of the rope.

00:26:52.760 What do you guys do whenever someone doesn't want to cooperate?

00:26:55.080 Like, what's your next step?

00:26:57.860 Yeah, so we'll see lots of different forms of resistance or lack of cooperation.

00:27:04.280 And I think our advice when we're working with interviewers or interrogators is to say,

00:27:11.000 what do you know about this person already?

00:27:14.140 What do you know they care about or have some indicators?

00:27:17.580 And again, as I said before, you don't want to make assumptions, but you want to make a

00:27:23.040 kind of informed hypothesis, a bit of a guess of it's they probably are interested or care

00:27:29.760 about this.

00:27:30.380 And so if you can frame your approaches or your questions or your appeals to them around

00:27:37.700 values that you think they're going to hold, then that is likely to start pushing those

00:27:43.020 levers that open them up.

00:27:45.220 You've at least got to be able to explore the blockers because the reality is if they've

00:27:49.900 got a genuinely and fully informed picture of the reasons why they aren't talking and the

00:27:56.280 reasons why they might want to consider talking, then you genuinely do need to leave that choice

00:28:01.280 up to them.

00:28:01.920 But what's kind of strange is perhaps sometimes it is in their best interest to talk and they

00:28:07.640 don't, they don't, they're not fully appraised of the reason why you can sometimes get some

00:28:11.800 very strong arming barristers or solicitors that are instructing them not to talk.

00:28:17.280 Well, the reality is legally, it's not an instruction not to talk, it's advice.

00:28:21.700 And so we always recommend, you know, if you as the interrogator, keep that position clear

00:28:27.980 in your head.

00:28:28.920 It's not about what your solicitor or barrister or attorney wants you to do.

00:28:32.360 It's not about what I want you to do.

00:28:34.880 This is the situation, it is your choice.

00:28:38.260 And actually that is the strongest indicator that that person can make a fully informed,

00:28:43.560 legally appropriate and psychologically real decision about whether they want to talk.

00:28:47.740 And look, the reality is if you've got a hardcore Taliban commander that has gotten zero interest

00:28:53.460 in speaking to you, there's nothing you can do about it.

00:28:57.120 And, you know, that again is also their choice.

00:28:59.400 But as soon as you start going down that slippery slope of strong arming, coercing, tricking,

00:29:04.800 deceiving, and so on, the long term pain that you will pay for that is that you could get

00:29:10.780 bust information. 0.89

00:29:12.480 You come across as the bad guy, you come across as the coward, and that will go back 0.95

00:29:16.920 to those people in terms of the long game.

00:29:19.680 That is a toxic route that you can go down that doesn't pay off.

00:29:23.440 And it is, you know, the more you can leave it up to them, the better.

00:29:26.260 I was just going to add very quickly, give you like a, you know, practical example of

00:29:30.540 seeing that in operation.

00:29:32.360 And this really shocked us even in the analysis of the data.

00:29:36.740 But, you know, like Lauren said, for some people, they're so dug in, it really doesn't

00:29:42.640 matter.

00:29:43.260 You feel like it doesn't matter what you do.

00:29:44.940 And we've seen that kind of where interviewers, we call it a kind of kitchen sink approach.

00:29:48.660 They'll just try anything, you know, to get that person to cooperate.

00:29:52.280 But we saw a real difference if the interviewers maintained rapport-based methods, even with

00:29:58.920 very hardcore paramilitary suspects.

00:30:03.260 They would never say anything on tape.

00:30:05.420 They were way too savvy.

00:30:06.660 That wasn't going to happen ever.

00:30:08.100 But they would give information up when the tape switched off.

00:30:12.520 And intelligence in this forum matters a great deal.

00:30:16.460 So we were saying, listen, it always matters.

00:30:19.520 Rapport always matters.

00:30:20.860 Even if someone, you know, looks like there's no chance of them cooperating, it's not worth

00:30:25.720 going, well, let's just try anything.

00:30:28.040 So, I mean, it sounds like knowing how to give someone autonomy requires empathy.

00:30:32.480 Again, you have to understand where they're coming from.

00:30:34.360 And I was trying to think of like a sort of a day-to-day example.

00:30:38.240 And one that came to me is like customer service, right?

00:30:40.220 When you have a problem and you go to the customer service person, and the typical thing

00:30:44.760 is like, you just start demanding things.

00:30:47.020 Da, da, da, da, da.

00:30:48.260 And I think in that situation, you'd want to be like, okay, how can I give this person autonomy?

00:30:52.580 So you'd be, you'd ask like, is there anything you can do to fix this problem?

00:30:57.020 And that might, they might say no, but at least like you're, you're not, you're not going,

00:31:01.080 you're not saying, I'm going to go to your manager.

00:31:02.380 Just say, go to that person.

00:31:03.680 Like, hey, you make the choice.

00:31:04.600 You're capable of doing this.

00:31:06.320 Yeah.

00:31:06.660 I mean, I think that that's a good example.

00:31:08.080 If you come in hard to someone that's on the front desk there, that's got to deal with

00:31:11.880 your BS, you're instantly setting up an environment where you're the wall that they want

00:31:17.440 to knock down.

00:31:18.160 Whereas if you come at them more openly and delicately and considerately and allow them,

00:31:25.780 you know, some, some decision-making in the process, you're going to get a much better

00:31:29.660 result, aren't you?

00:31:30.480 You don't become abrasive quickly because you get a reaction immediately back to that.

00:31:35.460 It's hugely important in parenting as well.

00:31:38.180 And you think about, you know, trying to teach your children how to solve their own problems.

00:31:43.140 If you, if you're constantly sort of saying, I lay down the law and I decide what's going

00:31:48.420 to happen to you and I decide what, you know, your punishment is or what to do about this

00:31:53.520 situation where you screwed up.

00:31:55.400 And we never, ever say to them, look, this is a problem.

00:31:58.820 This is how things are.

00:32:00.400 This is what's happened.

00:32:01.760 What are you going to do to fix it?

00:32:03.600 That's a really important lesson for kids to learn, which is, you know, own your behavior,

00:32:08.800 your, take responsibility and fix your wrongs.

00:32:12.540 You know, those, those are such important messages.

00:32:16.080 Well, let's talk about the last part of here, which is reflection.

00:32:19.240 And you guys devote a whole chapter to this.

00:32:21.520 So it seems like it's really important.

00:32:23.320 So what is reflection and how does that work into the process?

00:32:27.320 Well, we had an interesting idea here, Brett, which you may or may not go for.

00:32:31.980 We thought it's probably best to illustrate this by example.

00:32:35.120 So I don't know how you feel about this, but would, would you indulge us by letting Emily

00:32:41.100 interview you for a couple of minutes?

00:32:42.720 And we'll, we'll see how it goes.

00:32:46.320 Oh, goodness.

00:32:46.840 This is, you're putting me on the spot here.

00:32:48.980 Actually, what I've noticed is that you're really good at reflections yourself.

00:32:52.720 Yeah.

00:32:53.100 So I don't know if you, throughout this interview so far, you've said quite frequently.

00:32:59.140 So it sounds like what you're saying is yada, yada, yada.

00:33:02.100 Well, that's a classic, what we call reframe reflection.

00:33:05.120 And what you're doing there is we've said something, you're exploring it by saying,

00:33:09.800 I think I've heard what you said, but I'm just checking is, are you saying this?

00:33:13.840 And that is a classic interview technique to squeeze more information out of people.

00:33:18.940 So, so you've got a natural ability there, Brett, for, for, for doing a particular form

00:33:23.540 of reflection.

00:33:25.160 I'm ready to interview terrorists.

00:33:27.500 Okay.

00:33:28.400 We'll set you on one.

00:33:29.680 Oh, yeah.

00:33:30.540 Okay.

00:33:30.660 So, so, so, do you want to, we had an idea about how, how to do this.

00:33:34.460 Well, it's entirely up to you again, respecting your autonomy, Brett.

00:33:38.740 Oh, autonomy.

00:33:39.180 Thank you.

00:33:39.780 Yes.

00:33:39.960 Thank you.

00:33:40.580 But I was going to just ask you, you know, just to hopefully a interesting question.

00:33:45.600 If you could just say a little bit about maybe why you chose to start up this podcast or,

00:33:51.300 you know, to, to give it the title that you did, or just tell us a little bit about that.

00:33:56.860 Sure.

00:33:57.600 So the whole thing started off as a blog called theartofmanliness.com back in 2008.

00:34:02.680 And we just, I wrote content with my wife about how to, you know, men can improve themselves,

00:34:07.600 be better husbands, better fathers, better dads.

00:34:09.760 And then in 2009, I decided to do a podcast because I thought, why not?

00:34:14.520 Let's do a podcast.

00:34:15.460 It's something to do.

00:34:16.140 And that's basically the reason why I started the podcast.

00:34:19.880 So you said that when you started it as a blog, which yeah, it's funny, isn't it?

00:34:24.600 How technologies just advance so much, but when you were writing it as a blog, that it

00:34:29.560 was about being a better man, being a better husband, being a better father, you know, what,

00:34:35.100 what made you want to kind of get those messages out to people?

00:34:38.920 Well, it's just a, basically it was, I was trying to fulfill what I thought was an unmet

00:34:43.780 need in my own life.

00:34:45.220 A lot of the men's publications at the time, like magazines and things I thought were very

00:34:49.580 superficial, too focused on six pack abs and wearing expensive clothing.

00:34:55.200 And it just didn't resonate with me.

00:34:57.020 So I figured I'm probably not the only guy that feels that way.

00:35:00.340 So I'll create the men's magazine that I'd want to read.

00:35:03.580 Right.

00:35:03.840 Yeah.

00:35:04.120 That's really interesting.

00:35:05.560 So, so kind of feeling like the, the things that were aimed at men, we're not really connecting

00:35:11.940 with you, we're not really, you know, in line with your values and what you cared about.

00:35:16.840 They were all these kind of, you know, superficial things, cars and six pack abs and, and the kind

00:35:22.020 of stereotypes.

00:35:22.700 And, and so do you think one of your goals is to get underneath some of those stereotypes

00:35:27.800 of men?

00:35:29.260 Yeah, I would say that it was, I would say that that was one of the goals to say that

00:35:32.960 men are more multidimensional than people often think they are.

00:35:38.020 Multidimensional.

00:35:38.420 So, yeah, there's many faceted, you know, they've, they've had other interests besides

00:35:42.520 six pack abs cars.

00:35:44.380 They, they want to learn how to be better husbands, better fathers, interested in hearing

00:35:48.080 from interesting people like yourselves, forensic psychologists, and how they can use those

00:35:52.320 insights from your careers and their own lives.

00:35:54.560 I think sometimes we sell men short.

00:35:58.400 Yeah.

00:35:58.840 So on the one hand, feeling like there wasn't anything out there, but then also feeling like

00:36:03.560 what was out there, you know, was, was kind of derogatory toward what maleness is about.

00:36:10.620 Yeah, I would say that.

00:36:11.540 Yeah, that's, I think that's a great way to put it.

00:36:14.120 Okay.

00:36:14.820 That's, that's quite interesting.

00:36:17.180 I mean, listening to that, that tells me an awful lot about you and, and what you care

00:36:22.460 about and what you think about in terms of, you know, your, yourself and your identity

00:36:27.360 as a man and what you think, what you would want for other men to feel as well, that you,

00:36:32.300 you know, you want there to be a place for men to be interested in parenting, be interested

00:36:37.400 in big ideas, not just this kind of broad stroke surface media idea of what masculinity

00:36:44.120 is.

00:36:45.780 Yeah, no, definitely.

00:36:48.040 I'm on board.

00:36:49.800 Okay.

00:36:50.320 So we'll stop there.

00:36:51.080 So, so the techniques there, I mean, I mean, they're probably pretty apparent, but what

00:36:56.180 you'll hopefully have noticed is that there isn't actually much questioning.

00:36:59.740 What you're doing is reflecting back what you're hearing to seek more information.

00:37:03.920 We often talk about, I mean, what people say are the, you know, the words that people say

00:37:08.560 are the bit of the iceberg that you can see above the water, but what you can't see is the

00:37:13.380 size, shape, dimensions of what sits beneath it.

00:37:16.980 So what you're doing when you reflect is you're, you're throwing some of the words back in order

00:37:23.400 to try and explore what the thoughts, values, beliefs, and feelings are under the system.

00:37:28.300 So, you know, a lot of what Emily was doing there was what you've been doing with us was

00:37:33.200 which was, look, it's, you know, you've started the podcast, you've started this art of manliness

00:37:39.680 and that seems to be about one, a reaction to what was out there and a lack of something

00:37:45.020 two, that men were being done a disservice.

00:37:49.100 And you said that the key thing that stood out for me at the early part of that conversation

00:37:52.660 was you said an unmet need.

00:37:54.960 So depending on what you want to explore and what direction you want to go in, you would

00:38:00.120 reflect back the things that you wanted to understand more about.

00:38:04.860 So the art of reflection is to know where you want to go and what you want to find out

00:38:09.440 about the person.

00:38:10.080 You can actually travel quite far quite quickly.

00:38:12.240 And, you know, I think we've got a better understanding of your motives around what

00:38:18.500 you do quite quickly.

00:38:19.740 But I mean, what are your reflections on that?

00:38:22.100 No, it was, I was, I was, it's interesting because, yeah, you didn't, you guys didn't,

00:38:26.340 both of you, well, Emily primarily was just saying, was just kind of reflecting back what

00:38:31.700 I said to her.

00:38:32.600 And it, it puts you in a position, like at least it put me in a position where I was like,

00:38:36.240 well, yes, then I want to refine that some more.

00:38:38.920 So I was giving like, I would give more and more information.

00:38:42.140 So loud is basically, I saw it as a tool to fine tune what I was trying to say.

00:38:46.960 And then Lawrence, you, you chimed in when I said multidimensional, you just said multidimensional,

00:38:52.120 not, not, not accusatory or anything, but it's just like, oh, what is, what do you mean by

00:38:56.020 that?

00:38:56.300 And I had to be like, well, it forced me to, to start talking more what I meant by that.

00:39:02.180 Yeah.

00:39:02.320 So that's what we call a simple reflection.

00:39:03.880 You, you pick out, oh, so the other thing that I could have reflected back was unmet

00:39:07.040 need or superficial, you said.

00:39:10.040 So, you know, depending on where you want to go with it, you, you can pick apart the bits

00:39:15.240 that you want to explore a bit more.

00:39:17.460 And as you say, the funny thing is, is the person being on the receiving end of it, you

00:39:22.280 start to think about things that you are in your head that you haven't previously articulated.

00:39:27.160 So you actually kind of get a better understanding of your own thoughts and feelings.

00:39:31.940 I mean, the other, the M's has just written down, not six pack as well.

00:39:36.820 So you wouldn't simple reflect if I'd said to you, um, six pack, you know, that's irrelevant.

00:39:43.840 That would be the wrong thing to reflect.

00:39:45.000 It's not what we're wanting to talk about.

00:39:46.380 So we don't reflect what we don't want to know more about or what's off topic because it's

00:39:52.140 not going to take us in the direction we want to travel.

00:39:54.440 Okay. That was really, that was really useful.

00:39:57.220 And I think it gave people a good idea of how to use these things.

00:40:00.160 You guys do this other example that I loved because it was funny.

00:40:03.880 But like the, the example you give in the book is the question that I think a lot of

00:40:07.380 men might've heard from either wives or girlfriends.

00:40:09.280 It was like, and the question is, does this dress make me look fat?

00:40:14.100 And, and everyone knows, every dude knows that that is a trick question.

00:40:18.440 And so, but, but with the here process, it's possible to, you know, cut this Gordian knot

00:40:26.280 and, uh, and answer it.

00:40:29.980 It is. So do you want us to role play?

00:40:31.920 Yeah, let's, let's role play that role play this.

00:40:35.580 Well, maybe I should be this person.

00:40:37.220 Yeah, right.

00:40:38.000 Yeah. Do you, I'll be the, I'll be the, the questioner.

00:40:42.060 Okay. M's old man. I don't know if I can go out in this.

00:40:45.060 I think I look fat. Do you think I look fat?

00:40:48.040 Why are you feeling fat at the moment?

00:40:51.740 Yeah. Yeah. I am feeling a bit of a chub, to be honest.

00:40:54.840 I think I, you know, since I've gone past 50, I, I think I'm looking a bit of porky.

00:41:00.360 So you're worried, you're worried about how you look.

00:41:02.620 How do you feel?

00:41:04.200 Yeah, I feel fat. So do you think I look fat?

00:41:06.540 I shouldn't probably wear this out. Should I, right?

00:41:08.780 Well, what is making you say that about, about what you're wearing?

00:41:12.220 Well, look, it's bulgy here.

00:41:13.580 I can barely get my belt around my waist. That's not a good look, is it?

00:41:18.720 So if you go out dressed like that, how are you going to feel?

00:41:23.440 On display as something that shouldn't be seen. What do you think I look like?

00:41:28.700 Okay. Well, I wouldn't want you to go out feeling like that about yourself.

00:41:33.020 I want you to wear something you feel comfortable in, you know?

00:41:35.980 So you do think I look fat?

00:41:37.260 Yeah. So if I know you're asking me, you're asking me this question, aren't you? Do you look fat in that? And that's such a difficult thing. Because if I say to you, yes, then I don't want to hurt you. I don't want to upset you.

00:41:51.480 But if I say to you, no, you're said to me, you feel like it doesn't fit and it doesn't fit you right and you don't feel comfortable in it. So, you know, if you're feeling like that doesn't look good, then we should do something about it.

00:42:05.680 Yeah, but don't you think I have put a few pounds on?

00:42:07.340 Well, if you think you have and you're saying your clothes are tight. Yeah, I think we both have, you know, our diet's been rubbish lately. Do you think that's true?

00:42:18.900 Yeah, I guess so. Well, we should maybe, I don't know, we should maybe think about doing some more exercise or anyway, I'll put another shirt on, I guess.

00:42:28.160 Okay, well, let's, yeah.

00:42:29.840 Okay, so we'll kill it there. 0.97

00:42:30.920 All right. Well, so let's do some reflection there. I mean, one thing I noticed that Emily did was that she was honest, right? There's that point where, you know, Lawrence kept pushing the question. 0.95

00:42:42.040 And Emily was like, look, Emily says, look, if I say yes, you're going to feel bad. But if I say no, and you go out and you don't feel comfortable, that's not good either.

00:42:52.260 Right.

00:42:52.480 So there was some honesty there.

00:42:54.340 Yeah. And, you know, would I have felt hurt with that? No. If Emily had said, if I'd said, you know, do I look fat in this?

00:42:59.340 She's like, yeah, you do look a bit fat. That kind of would have been too quick and too brutal. But what she did was ask me how I felt about it, how comfortable I felt. And, you know, Ems, I don't know if you want to talk about the rule of three.

00:43:11.840 Yeah, we're often, because these things are hard to remember in the moment, aren't they? And so we kind of try to give these little tips and pointers. And one of them that we often say is use the rule of three with reflections.

00:43:24.160 So if you get something thorny or a difficult conversation, or even a topic that you're trying to pursue, you can knock three times. But once you get to the fourth knock, you need to actually be honest, deliver the bottom line, or actually leave that conversation, because it's not going to actually progress in a positive direction.

00:43:47.440 So with the fat example, I think I gave it to Ems three times. Do I look fat in this? And the response was, how do you feel about it? Well, I feel a bit overweight, and I can hardly get in my clothes. And so do you think I look fat? Well, how are you going to feel when you go out?

00:44:00.520 And then the third time when I asked her, so, you know, I have put some more pounds on, haven't I? At which point she said yes. So she's used reflection a couple of times to explore how I feel about it, and why I've said it, and what do I think. But ultimately, because she's done it with some empathy and some concern, and of course, you couldn't see her face here, but she looked like she did care.

00:44:20.120 You know, she's able to say, and I didn't feel offended. And also, we were moving towards a resolution, maybe we should do something about this. And, you know, I felt supported. I didn't, you know, she'd answer the question honestly, but I'd explored the reason I was saying this first.

00:44:38.180 So it's a good technique to, if used a couple of times, and honestly, and empathetic, that's why all these things need to be used in combination, really. You know, the reflection stuff is a tactic, but your honesty and your empathy needs to be a value that you bring into the room.

00:44:56.320 Right. It's not like a linear thing. It's not like you're honest. It's like you're doing these things all at once.

00:45:00.960 Right.

00:45:01.440 I should maybe point out, though, that, and obviously, this is a case across lots of different contexts, but sometimes there is a time where you have to give the bottom line to somebody.

00:45:12.400 You know, if, say, you've got to let somebody go at work, or you've got to, you know, impose a punishment on your child for something they've done, or certainly for our circumstances.

00:45:25.060 But, you know, we've got urgent safety interviews in terrorism, in interviewing, where, you know, literally, it's a kind of ticking time bomb scenario.

00:45:36.020 There are questions that need to be put to someone urgently, and a bottom line that has to be given.

00:45:42.080 And things that can't be given as well. You know, you get detainees saying, you know, can I speak to this person? Can I do this?

00:45:48.020 No, you can't do that. And here are the reasons why. So you need to be able to give the hard messages, definitely.

00:45:55.060 And the way to do that, just to hang on to this, is if you've got a bottom line to deliver, always pair it with empathy at the front end.

00:46:05.260 Even if you've got your own emotional reaction to whatever it is, try and pair it with some empathy at the front end.

00:46:12.960 So give that bit of understanding. I think I say in the book, we call it the toddler in the t-shirt technique, where, you know, you give that understanding.

00:46:22.420 And that's an example where the toddler says, I want to wear my dinosaur t-shirt to nursery today, mommy.

00:46:28.220 And you say, well, you can't, darling, it's wet. And they say, well, I want it.

00:46:32.300 And you say, well, you can't, it's wet. And they say, well, I want it.

00:46:35.860 And round and round we go, we're never going to give that bottom line of, you're not wearing the t-shirt to nursery unless we give some empathy first.

00:46:44.240 And people think, they think it's indulgent. They think you should just say, you know, no, just do it.

00:46:49.980 But people can't hear the message unless they have their perspective acknowledged.

00:46:55.080 So for that example, you'd say, you know, I know you love that t-shirt. It's your favorite.

00:46:59.920 I bet you're really looking forward to wearing it today.

00:47:03.240 But you can't, sweetheart, it's wet. So you can wear it tomorrow.

00:47:06.480 We'll dry it, hang it. Now you have to pick one of these other 20 dinosaur t-shirts that you own.

00:47:11.820 You know, and that's like a really common example.

00:47:14.940 But I promise you, we're teaching the same thing when you're acknowledging somebody's perspective in a terrorism interview.

00:47:22.440 Give that empathy first, and then they can listen to the bottom line.

00:47:26.520 So the here process is something you can do to build that rapport.

00:47:30.600 But another part of rapport that you guys make the case is that there's a social dynamic going on.

00:47:35.600 People are going to be confrontational. They're going to be submissive.

00:47:39.000 They're going to be cooperative. They're going to be, you know, just bulldozing.

00:47:43.420 And you have to take that into account too when you're trying to build rapport with somebody.

00:47:48.220 So let's talk about this, these social dynamics.

00:47:50.880 And you guys use sort of like animal totems to describe them.

00:47:54.100 Can you kind of walk us through what you call the animal circle?

00:47:58.080 Yeah, so this goes back to Leary's work, Timothy Leary.

00:48:00.920 Some of your listeners may know Leary.

00:48:03.120 He was known in the 1950s for being a personality theorist.

00:48:06.460 And then he kind of went off the rails a bit and was engaged in using LSD and God knows what.

00:48:11.200 But in the early part of his career, he came up with a really interesting idea.

00:48:14.880 And the idea was that up to that point, personality theory had always been considered a kind of static trait that was just within the individual.

00:48:23.680 You know, how conscientious or extrovert or neurotic you were.

00:48:26.600 And Leary said, well, okay, that's, I'm not disagreeing with that.

00:48:29.740 But actually, part of what personality is, is only revealed when you see that person interacting with another person.

00:48:38.440 So if you like, it's a kind of interpersonality theory.

00:48:41.080 And so he created this thing called the interpersonal wheel.

00:48:45.040 And for listeners, if you want to fill in your own wheels to see where your particular emphasis is, if you go to our website, which is www.ground-truth.co.uk, you can fill in a little inventory that will tell you whether you're mainly controlling or mainly cooperative or mainly capitulator or mainly conflict driven.

00:49:05.160 But theory's argument, Leary's argument was that in any interaction, there were two basic dimensions, power and communion.

00:49:13.800 The power dimension, if you visualize a kind of northeast-southwest, the power dimension runs north-south.

00:49:20.060 And as you go north, you're creating more power.

00:49:23.080 And in so doing, the person that you're speaking to, you are wanting them to go lower.

00:49:27.060 You're wanting them to go south and be more submissive.

00:49:30.060 Equally, if you come into an interaction and you're very submissive, you are inviting a response where the person opposite you is going to be higher on power.

00:49:38.160 So if you look at someone like, we always think of a good example is Gordon Ramsay as a character that's very high on power.

00:49:44.440 And what does he like when he's talking to other people?

00:49:46.740 He likes them to be lower than him.

00:49:48.360 So he's comfortable with a power dynamic where he's in charge and the other person opposite them is lower.

00:49:54.120 So that's the power dimension.

00:49:55.160 On the horizontal axis, the west-to-east axis, you've got what we call communion or love.

00:50:01.980 Now, this axis works rather differently.

00:50:04.180 And at the west side, you've got conflict.

00:50:05.960 And at the east side, you've got cooperation.

00:50:08.760 And on the east side, where we talk about where the monkey sits, if you're giving out social warm vibes, you're expecting to get that back.

00:50:15.800 If you're at the west side, which is what we call T-Rex, you're sending out conflict vibes, which is meaning that you're about argument and conflict and division and separation and debate.

00:50:26.000 And those things attract each other.

00:50:28.140 So in terms of this kind of totemic animals, you've got north, the lion.

00:50:32.520 You've got east, the monkey.

00:50:34.300 You've got south, the mouse.

00:50:36.380 And at west, you've got the T-Rex.

00:50:37.920 Now, all of these areas need to be mastered, and all of them can be done pro-socially and adaptively or anti-socially and maladaptively.

00:50:47.200 So you want proportionate control and leadership.

00:50:50.620 You want proportionate cooperation and closeness and warmth.

00:50:54.300 You want proportionate ability to sit back, listen, and have the humility.

00:50:58.920 And you want proportionate ability to engage in conflict without going too far and becoming attacking, punitive, and sarcastic.

00:51:05.640 So as with all these interactions between people, there are a number of things that you need to do.

00:51:11.640 One, don't be too extreme on any of the dimensions.

00:51:15.640 And two, know what you are dealing with when the person sat opposite you is displaying a particular form of behavior.

00:51:22.420 So you always need to think about where you fit.

00:51:25.260 And that, in a nutshell, is the interpersonal wheel.

00:51:28.500 Well, and I guess let's give an example like the power dynamic.

00:51:30.840 So from your guys' experience, oftentimes you're going in, interviewing someone who is a detainee, and they might be high on the line, right?

00:51:39.340 So they're in charge, and maybe they're up high in the Taliban or something like that.

00:51:44.560 And so when you interact with them, they're going to give that vibe off.

00:51:48.120 And so, I mean, is your response?

00:51:49.700 I mean, I think the typical response from people will be like, well, I'm going to show who's the alpha here.

00:51:53.740 But you guys say, no, actually, if you want to get some stuff done, you have to be a little bit submissive.

00:51:58.300 Correct. Yeah, yeah.

00:51:59.540 And, you know, trust me, when you're teaching, we teach hardcore military personnel this, you know, the idea that they go submissive, you know, it's like, well, I ain't doing that.

00:52:08.160 I'm not surrendering.

00:52:09.300 But if you've made the choice, you're in control of that position of, you know, interpersonal surrender, that is a massive position of strength, massive position.

00:52:19.260 As long as you don't acquiesce to the point where you're going so low that you're actually being bullied and you're becoming avoidant and uncertain and hesitant,

00:52:26.020 if your choice is to have the position of the mouse or the position of capitulation where you have humility, patience, persistence, and the ability to sit back, that is an enormous position of strength.

00:52:38.520 And when we looked at this statistically, actually, weirdly, the strongest position to be out of all these four animals, the go-to position if you're struggling is go to mouse.

00:52:49.200 Don't go to bad mouse where you're becoming uncertain, weak, and you're being pushed around, but humility, perseverance, and the ability to listen.

00:52:57.200 And that is really a position of strength, massively.

00:53:00.240 We've seen, and trust me, all the best and elite interrogators that we've seen, and these are guys that have seen it all.

00:53:06.840 They've seen it all.

00:53:07.900 And the thing that they have mastered is that position of mouse.

00:53:11.840 It is a real position of strength.

00:53:13.280 If you've got someone that's hardcore, wants to be alpha, you know what?

00:53:17.020 That's fine.

00:53:18.160 That is fine.

00:53:19.360 Let them talk.

00:53:20.560 Listen to them.

00:53:21.600 Seek understanding.

00:53:22.940 Have the humility and good grace to sit back.

00:53:25.480 It really is a position of strength.

00:53:27.540 What do you do with the T-Rex?

00:53:30.260 So this is a person who likes conflict.

00:53:33.220 How do you, like, let's say they're like a bad T-Rex.

00:53:36.700 Like, it's not like, they're not just bringing up conflict because, I mean, sometimes, you know, conflict is good because that's how you figure out what, where differences are.

00:53:43.560 But this person just wants to just cause a ruckus.

00:53:47.360 What's your, how do you respond to that?

00:53:49.700 Well, you, I mean, again, you know, when we present this, quite often, cops will say, oh, well, maybe I should go to the mouse position and try and warm it up.

00:53:57.100 Well, that is an absolute disaster.

00:53:59.160 You know, we've seen people in OCGs, organized crime groups that have, you know, been through the cop system a lot, and they want a bit of rough and tumble.

00:54:06.880 And the most successful interviewers are people that take that head on.

00:54:09.780 They don't go bad T-Rex.

00:54:11.280 They go good T-Rex.

00:54:13.160 So, you know, even if someone's being really aggressive and unpleasant, you need to know what your bottom line is, and you just need to give them a direct message.

00:54:20.640 It doesn't mean you need to be mean with it or attacking or punitive, but you match, you match that T-Rex position.

00:54:27.140 So conflict begets conflict.

00:54:29.020 That is where you need to be.

00:54:30.260 I would just add to that, because I think, you know, this is probably T-Rex is my greatest challenge.

00:54:36.380 M's is weaker on the T-Rex.

00:54:38.220 Yeah, and if I go T-Rex, I probably used to tend to go bad T-Rex.

00:54:44.260 So if I got pushed into conflict, then I would go bad.

00:54:48.040 And learning how to go good is quite challenging.

00:54:52.420 And instinctively, you know, we know that based on the model.

00:54:56.380 When someone is attacking you and being insulting, being sarcastic, being derogatory, it makes you want to argue back.

00:55:03.820 It's very compelling to be drawn into their style of interaction.

00:55:09.300 And the rule with this is, you know, when you do that, you're actually letting them control you.

00:55:15.220 You're letting them set the dynamic.

00:55:18.200 So by you being able to restrain yourself and pull back from that and be frank and forthright, you know, rather than attack back, is a huge strength to hold.

00:55:30.620 You know, it's you controlling the dynamic rather than them.

00:55:34.560 So it sounds like, okay, if someone's coming at you with conflict, you have to go back with conflict, but like not overbearing.

00:55:41.220 Like you're not going to start yelling at them, insulting them.

00:55:42.880 You're just going to give them the bottom line.

00:55:44.280 But would you also try to make sort of nudges towards like the cooperation, like find ways where you two can cooperate?

00:55:52.200 Yeah, I mean, the thing is with the model, you don't need to stay in that same position forever.

00:55:57.520 You can, you know, as long as like Em said, if you're making the choices and you've got enough self-control,

00:56:03.820 and emotional self-regulation to know what you're doing, you can start shifting that dynamic.

00:56:09.300 But what you can't do is flip suddenly from conflict to cooperation.

00:56:13.480 That's at the other end of the axis.

00:56:16.200 Well, Emily Lawrence, this has been a great conversation.

00:56:18.360 Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:56:20.560 You mentioned a website where people can take a quiz to figure out what's their preferred social interaction.

00:56:25.460 What was that again?

00:56:26.820 Yeah, so our website is www.ground-truth.co.uk.

00:56:34.500 And the book is called Rapport, The Four Ways to Read People.

00:56:37.500 And actually, if you go to the website, there's a bunch of other, there's some free resources on there in reference to other books, papers, and so forth and so on.

00:56:44.040 Yeah.

00:56:44.380 Well, fantastic.

00:56:45.040 Well, Lawrence and Emily, thanks for your time.

00:56:46.200 It's been a pleasure.

00:56:47.180 Thank you, Brett.

00:56:47.760 It's great to talk to you.

00:56:48.800 You take care.

00:56:49.300 My guests today were Lawrence and Emily Allison.

00:56:52.400 They're the authors of the book, Rapport, The Four Ways to Read People.

00:56:55.260 It's available on Amazon.com.

00:56:56.700 And check out our show notes at aom.is slash rapport, where you can find links to resources, where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:57:09.640 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast.

00:57:12.320 Check out our website at artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles rewritten over the years.

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00:57:30.780 And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate if you take one minute to give us a review on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher.

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00:57:42.140 Until next time, this is Brett McKay reminding you not only to listen to the AOM Podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

00:57:47.260 Thank you.

00:57:48.260 Thank you.

The Art of Manliness - September 30, 2020

#648： Lessons in Building Rapport from Experts in Terrorist Interrogation

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