The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025


#66： The Art of Roughhousing with Anthony T. DeBenedet


Episode Stats

Misogynist Sentences

8

Hate Speech Sentences

7


Summary

Dr. Anthony DeBenedet is a board certified physician and co-author of the book, The Art of Roughhousing, about the benefits of roughhousing with your kids. In this episode of the Art of Manliness podcast, Brett McKay talks about what he and his son, Gus, do to keep each other healthy and active.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 This episode of the Art of Manliness podcast
00:00:01.580 is brought to you by The Strenuous Life.
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00:01:47.740 Brett McKay here,
00:01:48.760 and welcome to another edition
00:01:50.000 of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:01:52.020 Well, I'm a dad.
00:01:53.600 I know a lot of you who are listening are dads,
00:01:56.120 or some of you have the goal
00:01:57.280 of being a father one day.
00:01:58.380 So this podcast is for you guys.
00:02:00.420 One of my favorite things to do as a dad
00:02:02.540 is roughhousing with my son, Gus.
00:02:05.720 He's three years old.
00:02:06.580 We've been roughhousing since he was about a year.
00:02:09.660 It's just so much fun, you know,
00:02:11.440 just wrestling with him on the ground,
00:02:13.260 throwing him up in the air,
00:02:14.940 doing body slams on the bed,
00:02:16.760 doing baby suplexes.
00:02:17.960 I mean, Gus just gets a kick out of it.
00:02:19.600 It's always fun when I'm like engrossed in work
00:02:22.160 and Gus comes and pulls on my arm
00:02:24.880 and said he wants to wrestle with dad.
00:02:26.900 That's how he says it.
00:02:27.880 Anyways, I have a lot of fun.
00:02:29.420 It's just a lot of great memories.
00:02:31.000 But there's actually some benefits
00:02:33.940 that come along with roughhousing
00:02:35.500 besides just getting some exercise
00:02:37.080 and having fun with dad.
00:02:38.560 Our guest today actually wrote a book
00:02:40.780 on the topic of roughhousing
00:02:42.040 and the benefits of roughhousing.
00:02:43.780 His name is Dr. Anthony DeBenedet.
00:02:45.900 He's a board certified physician
00:02:48.000 and the book that he co-authored
00:02:50.000 is The Art of Roughhousing.
00:02:52.540 And today we're going to talk about
00:02:54.500 the research that has come out
00:02:56.420 about the benefits of roughhousing
00:02:58.100 and basically how it makes your kid awesome.
00:03:00.240 It helps your kid become smarter,
00:03:02.080 more ethical, more moral,
00:03:04.340 you name it,
00:03:05.280 and it strengthens the father-child bond.
00:03:07.880 So you're going to really,
00:03:09.080 if you're a dad,
00:03:09.940 you're going to really enjoy this podcast.
00:03:11.180 So stay tuned.
00:03:11.940 Anthony DeBenedet,
00:03:16.880 welcome to the show.
00:03:18.140 Oh, it's great to be here, Brett.
00:03:19.280 Thanks for having me.
00:03:20.200 I'm such a fan of The Art of Manliness.
00:03:22.160 Well, thank you so much.
00:03:22.800 I appreciate that.
00:03:24.280 All right.
00:03:24.540 So your book is The Art of Roughhousing.
00:03:27.200 What inspired you to write a book
00:03:29.120 about roughhousing?
00:03:30.320 Because it seems one of those things
00:03:31.500 that everyone just,
00:03:32.840 I don't know,
00:03:33.040 it's kind of a,
00:03:34.200 yeah,
00:03:34.460 it's a childhood rite of passage.
00:03:35.920 Everyone does it.
00:03:37.100 Why did you feel compelled
00:03:38.120 to write a book about it?
00:03:39.300 Right.
00:03:39.600 What got me interested in roughhousing
00:03:42.560 was really two things.
00:03:44.960 One was basically,
00:03:46.980 it was a way that I found
00:03:48.780 to connect with my daughter
00:03:52.580 when she was two or three.
00:03:53.980 I was kind of on this road
00:03:55.060 to disconnection
00:03:56.740 and kind of dad failure trajectory
00:04:00.340 and play and rough and tumble play
00:04:03.500 in particular really kicked us back
00:04:07.080 into a better place.
00:04:09.600 And then also just really
00:04:11.560 the science behind it.
00:04:12.900 I was a,
00:04:13.880 I'm a working parent.
00:04:15.220 So I kind of wanted to find out
00:04:18.260 what would be the best thing
00:04:19.360 for my buck
00:04:20.180 in terms of the small amount of time
00:04:22.420 that I would have with my kids
00:04:23.560 after work.
00:04:24.720 And I found that rough and tumble play
00:04:27.200 really had a lot of great
00:04:28.340 developmental benefits for kids.
00:04:30.580 And there was a lot of cool science
00:04:31.720 behind it.
00:04:32.640 That's what got me interested
00:04:33.600 in doing the book.
00:04:34.600 Great.
00:04:34.780 So yeah,
00:04:35.100 I want to talk about the science
00:04:36.800 and research
00:04:37.260 because I think a lot of people
00:04:38.180 are going to be surprised to buy it.
00:04:39.980 But before that,
00:04:40.880 I mean,
00:04:41.040 do you think rough housing
00:04:42.180 has a PR problem?
00:04:44.060 Because we've written about
00:04:45.040 rough housing on the site
00:04:46.080 and we've done videos
00:04:48.420 and every time we do,
00:04:49.380 someone's like,
00:04:49.840 oh yeah,
00:04:51.080 everyone says rough housing is,
00:04:52.760 it's,
00:04:52.900 you know,
00:04:53.040 people are trying to outlaw
00:04:53.860 rough housing.
00:04:54.480 Why do you think there's that perception
00:04:56.700 that rough housing is being banned
00:04:59.700 or looked down upon?
00:05:01.460 I think it boils down to really one big thing
00:05:04.220 and that's kind of our obsession
00:05:05.860 with safety in our culture.
00:05:08.840 And I don't want to be on too,
00:05:09.940 too much of a soapbox,
00:05:11.360 but I think that there's been
00:05:12.660 a lot of great things
00:05:14.200 regarding child safety
00:05:16.220 in terms of car seats.
00:05:17.520 I mean,
00:05:17.640 those are great
00:05:18.320 and bike helmets are great,
00:05:20.320 but it seems like we've almost gone
00:05:22.440 too far
00:05:23.980 and we've kind of become
00:05:25.520 more afraid of a bruised knee
00:05:27.980 or a hurt feeling
00:05:29.940 and kind of life's real dangers.
00:05:31.660 And so I think that
00:05:32.220 when people start thinking
00:05:33.500 about rough housing,
00:05:34.720 they think about,
00:05:35.960 oh,
00:05:36.060 that's going to be dangerous.
00:05:37.520 And actually,
00:05:38.840 it's not,
00:05:40.140 that's not really
00:05:40.920 what the research shows
00:05:42.220 from a pure physical injury standpoint.
00:05:44.780 We don't see a lot of injuries
00:05:46.060 from healthy rough housing
00:05:47.760 and it actually is very safe
00:05:50.700 if you have kind of
00:05:52.060 some basic knowledge
00:05:53.700 and basic principles
00:05:55.300 that are guiding you
00:05:56.320 during the playtime.
00:05:57.520 Interesting.
00:05:57.800 Yeah,
00:05:57.940 it was funny.
00:05:58.460 When I did a,
00:05:59.400 you know,
00:05:59.540 we did a post
00:06:00.140 about rough housing
00:06:01.020 and I,
00:06:02.140 this,
00:06:02.360 my son was like
00:06:03.800 18 months old
00:06:04.660 at the time
00:06:05.180 and I just posted
00:06:06.600 a little iPhone video
00:06:07.680 of me rough housing,
00:06:09.220 you know,
00:06:09.620 nothing like,
00:06:10.300 and I wasn't like,
00:06:10.900 I was being very gentle.
00:06:12.780 Um,
00:06:13.880 I mean,
00:06:14.620 yeah,
00:06:14.920 he was having fun,
00:06:16.020 he was laughing
00:06:16.640 and then someone on Facebook
00:06:18.360 said they're going to report me
00:06:19.480 to Facebook
00:06:20.020 that I was abusing my child.
00:06:23.620 I mean,
00:06:23.920 I was just like,
00:06:24.540 wait,
00:06:24.780 what?
00:06:25.220 Yeah.
00:06:25.780 And it's funny
00:06:26.400 that the whole,
00:06:27.140 you know,
00:06:27.300 the,
00:06:27.620 we're,
00:06:28.340 there's,
00:06:28.580 there is sort of,
00:06:29.060 it seems there is sort of a reaction
00:06:30.620 to the overreaction
00:06:32.160 with safety
00:06:32.760 because,
00:06:33.020 you know,
00:06:33.120 recently we had this article
00:06:34.200 in the Atlantic Monthly
00:06:35.880 about,
00:06:36.240 are we coddling our kids too much
00:06:38.740 or was something wrong
00:06:39.580 with helicopter parenting?
00:06:41.480 Um,
00:06:41.980 right.
00:06:42.400 And there's all this research
00:06:43.380 saying that,
00:06:44.120 yeah,
00:06:44.260 we're actually hurting our kids
00:06:45.320 by trying to protect them too much.
00:06:47.300 Right.
00:06:47.660 That's exactly right.
00:06:48.640 It's,
00:06:48.980 that,
00:06:49.140 and roughhousing fits
00:06:50.080 kind of right into that paradigm.
00:06:52.360 Uh,
00:06:52.680 and in,
00:06:53.060 in a lot of ways
00:06:54.480 kind of the roots
00:06:55.200 of that paradigm
00:06:55.980 and that,
00:06:57.240 you know,
00:06:57.680 we,
00:06:58.040 we think that,
00:06:59.540 that we can't
00:07:00.920 be playfully physical
00:07:03.060 with kids,
00:07:03.980 that that's wrong
00:07:05.200 or that that's not our role
00:07:06.360 as parents
00:07:07.060 and that we should be,
00:07:08.060 you know,
00:07:08.960 providing structure
00:07:10.060 and being disciplinarians
00:07:11.980 and all of that kind of stuff
00:07:13.180 and,
00:07:13.660 and really,
00:07:15.200 you know,
00:07:15.520 the essence of their world
00:07:16.960 is a playful world.
00:07:19.520 I mean,
00:07:19.660 that is their language
00:07:20.620 and when we roll up our sleeves
00:07:22.440 and get down
00:07:23.320 and wrestle
00:07:24.300 or fall over
00:07:25.700 and giggle with them
00:07:26.780 and do those kinds of,
00:07:27.740 kind of activity,
00:07:29.500 you know,
00:07:29.620 horseplay kind of things
00:07:30.640 that that's,
00:07:31.260 that's really where we're starting
00:07:32.440 to really connect with them.
00:07:34.040 We're speaking their language.
00:07:35.560 Yeah.
00:07:36.200 So let's get into the research
00:07:37.520 because this is the thing
00:07:38.080 that fascinated me
00:07:39.300 the most about your book.
00:07:41.360 I mean,
00:07:41.580 there's actually science
00:07:42.540 that says,
00:07:43.360 yeah,
00:07:43.620 you should rough house,
00:07:45.120 you know,
00:07:45.260 you should give your baby
00:07:47.580 a baby suplex,
00:07:48.820 basically.
00:07:49.900 Right.
00:07:50.760 So what,
00:07:51.340 what does the science say
00:07:52.340 about rough housing?
00:07:54.220 Yeah,
00:07:54.620 the science is what,
00:07:55.940 what grabbed me too
00:07:57.240 as kind of a,
00:07:59.260 as kind of a trained scientist
00:08:00.580 and,
00:08:00.960 and,
00:08:01.460 you know,
00:08:01.660 it really is three,
00:08:02.620 there's three things
00:08:03.460 that I tell folks
00:08:05.140 that three big benefits
00:08:06.560 that kids get
00:08:07.440 when,
00:08:08.420 when mom or dad
00:08:09.560 actually rough house with them.
00:08:11.260 And that,
00:08:12.300 three things are
00:08:12.920 intelligence,
00:08:14.400 creativity,
00:08:15.360 and connection.
00:08:17.280 Those three things.
00:08:18.720 And intelligence is,
00:08:21.340 it's really fascinating to me
00:08:22.860 because,
00:08:23.600 you know,
00:08:23.920 there's a lot of ways,
00:08:24.700 first of all,
00:08:25.560 there's a lot of ways
00:08:26.100 to think about intelligence,
00:08:27.360 but,
00:08:28.200 you know,
00:08:28.420 from a purely IQ standpoint,
00:08:31.280 when we think about
00:08:31.840 brain development in kids,
00:08:33.180 the biggest,
00:08:33.580 the biggest years
00:08:34.440 of brain development
00:08:35.120 are ages,
00:08:35.540 essentially from
00:08:37.120 age one through eight,
00:08:39.480 essentially.
00:08:41.440 That's when a lot
00:08:42.380 of neural connections
00:08:43.180 are happening.
00:08:44.220 And rough housing
00:08:45.180 causes something
00:08:46.860 called simultaneous
00:08:48.080 activation
00:08:49.180 of the brain.
00:08:50.340 And that really
00:08:51.000 is the essence
00:08:51.600 of brain development.
00:08:52.540 That means that
00:08:53.000 multiple parts
00:08:54.320 of a child's brain
00:08:55.580 are being stimulated
00:08:57.380 all at once.
00:08:59.180 So,
00:08:59.720 their cortex is firing,
00:09:00.800 their amygdala is firing,
00:09:01.640 their cerebellum,
00:09:02.320 all these parts
00:09:03.280 of the brain are firing,
00:09:04.580 and that is what's causing
00:09:06.400 kind of neural connections
00:09:08.380 to develop.
00:09:09.240 And that's really
00:09:09.680 the essence
00:09:10.120 of brain development.
00:09:11.540 The only analogy
00:09:12.440 I can give to
00:09:12.980 in the adult world
00:09:14.220 is if you were
00:09:14.760 running a marathon
00:09:15.620 and you were
00:09:17.260 at the same time
00:09:18.120 getting a hug
00:09:18.960 and reading a book
00:09:21.040 all at the same time.
00:09:22.800 That's kind of
00:09:23.520 the analogy
00:09:24.160 of the adult world,
00:09:24.940 but that's really
00:09:25.420 what rough housing
00:09:26.040 is doing for kids' brains.
00:09:27.940 And that's,
00:09:28.740 you know,
00:09:28.900 if you just talk
00:09:29.360 about book smarts
00:09:30.200 or kind of pure memory,
00:09:31.640 you know,
00:09:31.820 your ability
00:09:32.340 to memorize,
00:09:33.280 which is basically,
00:09:34.920 you know,
00:09:35.440 the foundation
00:09:36.000 of what people
00:09:36.700 say book smarts,
00:09:37.940 that's what it's doing.
00:09:39.720 It's creating
00:09:40.680 the simultaneous activation,
00:09:42.460 but even more so
00:09:43.660 than that,
00:09:44.100 going to some
00:09:44.560 of the other benefits,
00:09:45.820 or actually,
00:09:46.300 real quick on intelligence,
00:09:48.080 because my favorite
00:09:48.600 is emotional intelligence.
00:09:50.820 And rough housing
00:09:51.260 does a great job
00:09:52.240 of imparting
00:09:53.440 emotional intelligence
00:09:54.460 and emotional intelligence
00:09:56.180 concepts
00:09:57.000 in children.
00:09:58.780 And the basic
00:09:59.320 shift of that
00:10:00.260 is that
00:10:01.060 emotional intelligence
00:10:02.640 comes down
00:10:03.060 to two things.
00:10:03.660 One is understanding
00:10:04.340 your own emotion.
00:10:05.820 And then the second thing
00:10:06.640 is kind of a little bit
00:10:07.560 more sci-fi,
00:10:08.420 and that's being able
00:10:09.360 to sense the emotions
00:10:10.400 of others
00:10:11.060 without really even
00:10:12.380 talking to them.
00:10:14.160 And rough housing
00:10:14.800 does a great job
00:10:15.680 of teaching kids
00:10:16.400 how to do that,
00:10:17.180 because basically
00:10:17.900 when you have
00:10:18.460 a rough housing
00:10:19.200 play period,
00:10:20.800 you have a rev up time
00:10:22.100 where kids start feeling
00:10:23.120 really,
00:10:23.540 really high energy
00:10:24.280 really,
00:10:24.780 really quick.
00:10:25.960 And then there's
00:10:26.460 a wind down period
00:10:27.520 where they start
00:10:28.200 to understand
00:10:28.680 what it feels like
00:10:29.360 to have low energy,
00:10:30.820 low emotion.
00:10:32.540 And that,
00:10:32.980 that basically,
00:10:34.400 that arc
00:10:35.100 of winding up
00:10:36.200 and revving,
00:10:37.060 or winding up
00:10:37.980 and winding down
00:10:38.940 is basically
00:10:41.260 the essence
00:10:42.120 of understanding
00:10:42.840 your own emotions.
00:10:44.720 And kind of getting
00:10:45.860 that kind of
00:10:47.040 barometer
00:10:47.540 or dimmer switch
00:10:48.680 instilled in the kids
00:10:50.340 at an early age
00:10:51.380 is really the essence
00:10:52.220 of emotional intelligence.
00:10:53.740 The second piece,
00:10:54.740 you know,
00:10:54.940 understanding other people,
00:10:56.220 or being able
00:10:56.720 to sense
00:10:57.140 other people's emotions,
00:10:59.000 is basically,
00:11:00.000 rough housing
00:11:00.380 is great for that
00:11:01.020 because it's a lot
00:11:01.680 of nonverbal
00:11:02.580 body language
00:11:03.400 kind of stuff.
00:11:04.260 It's eye contact,
00:11:05.840 it's body language,
00:11:07.080 and so as you
00:11:07.740 begin to sense
00:11:09.100 the emotions
00:11:09.900 of dad
00:11:10.580 or mom,
00:11:13.340 then you kind of
00:11:14.160 transcend that,
00:11:15.160 that ability
00:11:15.900 out into the real world
00:11:17.160 and being able
00:11:17.980 to sense
00:11:18.300 other people's emotions.
00:11:20.040 There's another
00:11:20.280 two big benefits,
00:11:21.160 creativity.
00:11:21.880 Creativity is pretty easy.
00:11:24.040 Rough housing
00:11:24.600 and wild
00:11:25.500 and kind of horseplay
00:11:26.660 is all about
00:11:27.580 creative problems.
00:11:30.040 So, you know,
00:11:30.780 kids love sharks
00:11:31.760 and glaciers
00:11:32.680 and volcanoes
00:11:33.760 and things that explode.
00:11:35.880 And so as you're
00:11:36.400 kind of on the ground
00:11:37.120 with them
00:11:37.600 and throwing around
00:11:38.200 pillows
00:11:38.560 or jumping from cushions
00:11:39.700 or mattress to mattress,
00:11:41.680 you can inject
00:11:42.540 creative problems
00:11:43.580 into the playtime.
00:11:44.620 Like, you know,
00:11:45.080 how do we get away
00:11:45.660 from these sharks?
00:11:46.420 They're going to attack
00:11:47.060 our island.
00:11:47.680 What do we do?
00:11:48.820 And kids will come up
00:11:49.580 with amazing,
00:11:50.720 creative,
00:11:51.280 imaginative solutions.
00:11:53.380 And that kind of
00:11:54.440 starts the wheels turning
00:11:55.540 in terms of,
00:11:56.940 and the research
00:11:57.440 shows this,
00:11:58.120 in terms of
00:11:58.600 developing
00:11:59.640 divergent thinkers.
00:12:00.720 And that's what we want
00:12:01.740 kids to be
00:12:02.440 and we want everybody
00:12:03.560 to be divergent thinkers.
00:12:04.940 And that's,
00:12:05.700 you know,
00:12:06.060 the idea that there's
00:12:06.880 more than one solution
00:12:08.100 to a problem.
00:12:09.440 That's really the essence
00:12:10.260 of creativity.
00:12:11.140 It's not so much like,
00:12:12.500 can you play music
00:12:13.320 or a musical instrument
00:12:14.180 or can you create
00:12:15.400 a painting?
00:12:16.080 It's really,
00:12:16.880 can you solve problems
00:12:18.240 in different ways?
00:12:20.140 And then the final one
00:12:20.920 is connection,
00:12:21.600 which gets me
00:12:22.080 really excited.
00:12:23.260 And that's,
00:12:24.420 I think that,
00:12:26.120 you know,
00:12:26.400 when you ask parents,
00:12:28.340 you know,
00:12:28.500 what do you really want
00:12:29.600 for your kids?
00:12:30.420 Well,
00:12:30.600 everybody says,
00:12:31.200 you know,
00:12:31.300 we want them
00:12:31.720 to be happy.
00:12:33.060 And then the second thing
00:12:33.880 I think is that we want
00:12:34.760 some connection with them
00:12:35.800 so that when they get older
00:12:36.680 they might ask us
00:12:37.560 for some advice
00:12:38.360 in some context
00:12:39.940 or they might want us
00:12:41.500 to be a part of their lives
00:12:42.780 in some way.
00:12:44.180 And I think building
00:12:44.840 that connection
00:12:45.500 through roughhousing
00:12:46.340 at a young age
00:12:47.260 is really amazing.
00:12:48.680 And how does it do that?
00:12:49.520 Going back to the brain,
00:12:50.500 it actually,
00:12:50.880 so roughhousing
00:12:51.360 releases oxytocin,
00:12:53.480 which is the cuddle chemical,
00:12:54.540 which has been in the news
00:12:55.640 and the media
00:12:56.220 quite a bit
00:12:57.420 over the past
00:12:58.040 five to ten years,
00:12:58.960 a lot of research
00:12:59.780 being done.
00:13:01.460 Oxytocin is basically
00:13:02.960 the biological basis
00:13:04.140 of empathy.
00:13:05.920 It essentially tells somebody
00:13:07.320 that we're really there
00:13:08.180 with them.
00:13:08.780 It's released with,
00:13:09.660 like a genuine hug
00:13:11.040 or a handshake
00:13:12.460 or a fist bump,
00:13:13.200 but it's also released
00:13:13.960 during roughhousing.
00:13:15.000 So kids basically,
00:13:17.560 and adults too,
00:13:18.520 kind of developed
00:13:19.320 that biologically
00:13:20.040 connection early
00:13:21.360 in that kind of playtime.
00:13:22.580 Sorry,
00:13:22.820 that was a long answer.
00:13:23.780 No,
00:13:24.100 no,
00:13:24.340 I love it
00:13:25.120 because it's like
00:13:26.000 fascinating stuff.
00:13:26.800 So intelligence,
00:13:27.860 creativity,
00:13:28.240 connection.
00:13:29.580 I can say
00:13:30.360 from my own experience,
00:13:31.560 like with my son,
00:13:33.340 I've definitely seen that,
00:13:34.800 especially the emotional part
00:13:37.060 because,
00:13:38.420 you know,
00:13:39.500 sometimes,
00:13:40.300 like,
00:13:40.720 you know,
00:13:41.080 when you're roughhoused,
00:13:42.000 there are some shots
00:13:43.260 below the belt
00:13:44.000 or,
00:13:44.720 you know,
00:13:44.960 you get a knee
00:13:45.780 on the nose
00:13:46.520 and like it hurts
00:13:47.360 and you're like,
00:13:47.780 oh,
00:13:48.580 and it's interesting
00:13:49.180 to see my son
00:13:49.980 come up to me,
00:13:50.620 you know,
00:13:50.940 really,
00:13:51.360 you know,
00:13:51.540 when he's like
00:13:52.220 one and a half,
00:13:53.180 two and say,
00:13:53.860 oh,
00:13:54.160 daddy hurt
00:13:54.800 and daddy okay.
00:13:56.280 he'll attend to that.
00:13:57.440 He'll attend to that,
00:13:58.240 right.
00:13:58.880 And that's because
00:13:59.320 a lot of those chemicals
00:14:00.360 are,
00:14:00.780 yeah,
00:14:00.980 exactly.
00:14:01.720 Yeah,
00:14:01.920 and he says,
00:14:02.440 I'm sorry.
00:14:03.440 And that's another thing too
00:14:04.700 is like he's learned
00:14:05.380 sort of like boundaries,
00:14:06.580 right?
00:14:06.800 Like he doesn't,
00:14:07.420 he knows like what's,
00:14:09.040 you know,
00:14:09.160 he can't go too far
00:14:10.120 thrush housing
00:14:10.740 because then it becomes
00:14:11.460 sort of malicious.
00:14:12.900 You know,
00:14:13.060 he's learned to restrain himself
00:14:14.620 a bit when we roughhouse.
00:14:16.320 He doesn't like,
00:14:17.360 you know,
00:14:17.600 stomp on my face basically.
00:14:19.220 He knows that's wrong.
00:14:22.620 Right,
00:14:23.240 exactly.
00:14:23.820 So maybe they'll pay off
00:14:24.640 later in the future
00:14:25.440 when he's an adult
00:14:26.300 and he,
00:14:26.800 you know,
00:14:26.960 be ethical.
00:14:28.040 Okay,
00:14:28.380 so we're going to take a quick break
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00:15:27.660 And now back to the show.
00:15:29.280 You mentioned at the beginning
00:15:30.740 that the reason
00:15:31.820 you got interested in a roughhousing
00:15:32.980 because you have a daughter.
00:15:34.420 And I thought,
00:15:35.520 we typically associate roughhousing
00:15:37.100 like something boys do with dads.
00:15:38.880 But you make an argument
00:15:39.900 that girls should roughhouse too.
00:15:41.820 Are there any unique benefits
00:15:43.100 that the research has found
00:15:44.360 that if dads roughhouse
00:15:45.740 with their daughters,
00:15:46.540 that will help them in some way
00:15:48.580 that's different from boys?
00:15:49.940 Yeah, there definitely are.
00:15:51.200 So real quick on the boys piece
00:15:53.540 and kind of on the piece.
00:15:54.900 So roughhousing is really,
00:15:56.600 when I try to tell folks,
00:15:57.500 it's really for everyone.
00:15:58.600 So it's for both boys and girls
00:16:00.220 and moms and dads.
00:16:01.920 There's no real gender bias.
00:16:03.220 I think that dads and boys
00:16:05.420 may come a little bit more naturally.
00:16:07.780 That's okay.
00:16:09.060 And just like for moms and girls,
00:16:10.740 nurturing might come
00:16:11.600 a little bit more naturally.
00:16:13.320 But I think for boys,
00:16:14.260 at least roughhousing,
00:16:16.160 you know, boys,
00:16:16.780 the most important thing for boys,
00:16:17.980 I have three girls.
00:16:19.280 So I, you know,
00:16:20.940 at least from what I've heard
00:16:22.180 and what I, you know,
00:16:23.400 as a man and what I believe
00:16:25.640 is that the most important thing
00:16:27.060 for boys to learn
00:16:27.840 before they leave the house
00:16:29.240 is actually that there's more
00:16:30.900 to, there's more
00:16:31.840 to physical contact
00:16:33.000 than sex and violence.
00:16:35.460 And that's, you know,
00:16:36.260 if you can get that lesson in
00:16:37.660 as a parent,
00:16:39.200 you're really doing 90%
00:16:40.960 of what will really be
00:16:42.600 successful skills
00:16:44.100 for your, for your son.
00:16:45.840 And roughhousing does a great job
00:16:47.260 of that, obviously,
00:16:48.320 because you're showing
00:16:49.660 that there's playfulness
00:16:50.600 to physical contact.
00:16:52.840 For girls,
00:16:53.900 the most important thing
00:16:54.880 I think that they can learn
00:16:56.600 before they leave the house
00:16:58.000 is to find their voice.
00:17:01.080 And, and that's,
00:17:02.400 you know,
00:17:02.540 that's one of the most powerful
00:17:03.340 things in the world
00:17:04.120 is that they,
00:17:04.920 they, the woman's voice.
00:17:06.820 And, and roughhousing
00:17:07.900 does a great job of that
00:17:09.240 a lot,
00:17:09.980 in a lot of ways
00:17:10.780 of what you were talking
00:17:11.520 about with your son
00:17:12.420 is that when something
00:17:14.340 doesn't feel right
00:17:15.240 or doesn't go right
00:17:16.140 or something is hurt
00:17:17.340 or somebody gets hurt,
00:17:19.080 that there's a lot of,
00:17:20.280 there's a speaking up.
00:17:21.760 There's a hold the action
00:17:23.560 kind of time period
00:17:25.020 where, where girls start
00:17:27.060 to really find that voice
00:17:28.580 and say what they didn't
00:17:29.840 like about the playtime
00:17:30.860 or what they did like
00:17:31.600 about it.
00:17:32.700 And even taking that
00:17:34.160 a step further
00:17:34.820 when they get a little
00:17:35.440 bit older.
00:17:36.100 So, you know,
00:17:36.860 after age eight
00:17:37.860 and kind of preteen years,
00:17:39.940 there's not so much
00:17:41.440 of the improvisational
00:17:42.500 roughhousing or wrestling
00:17:43.560 that goes on
00:17:44.240 when they're younger,
00:17:44.920 but it can become
00:17:46.060 much more about
00:17:47.420 physical challenges.
00:17:49.480 So, for instance,
00:17:50.860 doing a run together
00:17:51.780 or balancing on,
00:17:53.040 you know,
00:17:53.200 seeing how far
00:17:53.620 you can balance,
00:17:54.480 you know,
00:17:54.600 how long you can balance
00:17:55.340 it,
00:17:55.560 how high you can
00:17:57.000 jump off the surface.
00:17:59.280 And that also is all
00:18:00.680 about using your voice
00:18:01.880 and talking about
00:18:02.940 what your abilities are.
00:18:04.880 So I think that that's
00:18:06.180 a unique benefit
00:18:07.080 that girls get
00:18:08.420 pretty quickly.
00:18:09.760 Boys are usually
00:18:10.260 pretty good about
00:18:10.900 kind of yelling
00:18:11.480 and talking about
00:18:12.420 what they want to say
00:18:13.520 and doing what they,
00:18:14.660 but that voice
00:18:15.240 kind of comes quickly,
00:18:16.640 but they need to learn
00:18:17.740 that physical contact
00:18:18.740 to each.
00:18:19.160 And girls,
00:18:20.080 a little slower
00:18:20.660 to warm up,
00:18:21.260 but roughhousing
00:18:21.660 helps a lot in that way.
00:18:23.620 I think I've read
00:18:24.740 this in your book,
00:18:25.320 if I remember correctly,
00:18:26.120 that they've done studies
00:18:27.260 where they found
00:18:27.660 that girls that roughhoused
00:18:28.660 with their fathers
00:18:29.540 tend to not be
00:18:30.980 the queen bee,
00:18:31.860 you know,
00:18:32.200 that whenever they
00:18:32.940 get to become preteens.
00:18:34.200 Is that you?
00:18:34.760 Or is it mine somewhere?
00:18:35.580 Yeah.
00:18:36.240 Which I think is great.
00:18:37.120 I mean,
00:18:37.200 no one wants their daughter
00:18:38.060 to be that mean girl,
00:18:39.340 right?
00:18:39.860 Right.
00:18:40.460 So exactly.
00:18:41.160 And that goes back
00:18:41.980 to that,
00:18:42.420 I didn't actually talk
00:18:43.360 about this,
00:18:43.720 but real quickly,
00:18:44.340 the social intelligence
00:18:45.340 aspect,
00:18:46.580 another kind of intelligence
00:18:47.720 that roughhousing brings.
00:18:49.680 And that's the idea
00:18:51.040 of knowing
00:18:51.460 when to be a leader
00:18:52.360 and when to be a follower.
00:18:54.540 I think that that's,
00:18:55.840 you know,
00:18:55.980 in our country,
00:18:57.420 we talk a lot
00:18:58.060 about leadership
00:18:58.760 and of equal value
00:19:00.560 as followership.
00:19:02.440 We all have skills
00:19:03.580 that can be
00:19:05.200 imparted on others
00:19:06.600 and imparted
00:19:07.420 on our world
00:19:08.100 as a whole.
00:19:09.640 And that kind of is,
00:19:10.600 you know,
00:19:10.780 that's that leadership piece
00:19:12.080 of knowing when to do that.
00:19:13.080 But we also have,
00:19:14.120 we also need to be able
00:19:14.840 to know when to be followers
00:19:16.020 for the benefit
00:19:17.060 of the team
00:19:17.820 and the benefit
00:19:18.320 of the collective.
00:19:19.920 Yeah.
00:19:20.240 And yeah,
00:19:20.620 related to that too,
00:19:21.700 I mean,
00:19:21.820 yeah,
00:19:22.000 it does teach
00:19:22.520 that social intelligence
00:19:23.380 and it,
00:19:24.520 I think also
00:19:25.340 for me and my son,
00:19:26.760 like,
00:19:27.060 you know,
00:19:27.260 I'm definitely bigger
00:19:28.360 and stronger
00:19:28.900 than my son.
00:19:30.380 But,
00:19:30.880 you know,
00:19:31.020 sometimes I let him
00:19:32.100 just take control
00:19:33.000 and just like pound me,
00:19:34.120 right?
00:19:34.360 And just do whatever.
00:19:35.340 That's key.
00:19:36.700 Yeah.
00:19:37.940 No,
00:19:38.420 it's totally,
00:19:39.260 that's the social intelligence.
00:19:40.660 Yeah.
00:19:41.120 And hopefully I'm imparting
00:19:42.020 that,
00:19:42.200 you know,
00:19:42.420 even though you're strong
00:19:43.500 and bigger than the other guy,
00:19:45.140 you know,
00:19:45.360 sometimes you got to
00:19:46.000 take turns in roles,
00:19:47.340 right?
00:19:47.700 And like,
00:19:48.200 that's right.
00:19:48.820 Yeah.
00:19:49.960 Fascinating.
00:19:50.440 So,
00:19:50.620 I mean,
00:19:51.200 yeah,
00:19:51.440 so like roughhousing,
00:19:52.380 like it makes your kid
00:19:53.180 awesome,
00:19:53.860 basically.
00:19:54.900 Right.
00:19:56.700 Yeah,
00:19:57.140 you know,
00:19:57.720 I tell folks
00:19:58.600 when I talk to parenting
00:19:59.480 groups and stuff
00:20:00.160 that,
00:20:00.840 you know,
00:20:01.060 any,
00:20:01.560 anybody who comes on
00:20:02.480 and says that there is a,
00:20:04.160 there is a magic bullet
00:20:05.180 to parenting
00:20:05.780 should probably turn the,
00:20:07.340 you know,
00:20:07.600 turn the station
00:20:08.300 or walk out.
00:20:09.520 And I think what I'm trying
00:20:10.280 to say to folks
00:20:10.900 is that this was a tool,
00:20:12.520 at least for me,
00:20:13.720 that's helped a lot,
00:20:14.900 among other tools,
00:20:16.280 of course,
00:20:16.820 as a parent,
00:20:17.960 and that,
00:20:18.980 you know,
00:20:19.220 you know your kid best
00:20:20.420 and that it's not,
00:20:22.280 you know,
00:20:22.720 if you hear this podcast,
00:20:24.540 you're like,
00:20:24.780 okay,
00:20:24.940 I'm going to go home
00:20:25.480 and just start
00:20:26.220 throwing my kid around.
00:20:27.460 You know,
00:20:27.940 that might not be
00:20:28.640 exactly what to do.
00:20:29.560 It might be just getting
00:20:30.340 down on the floor
00:20:31.080 with them
00:20:31.600 or,
00:20:32.240 you know,
00:20:33.000 just pushing on hands
00:20:34.640 on each other
00:20:35.280 a little bit
00:20:35.900 and not necessarily
00:20:36.880 revving it up immediately.
00:20:39.040 But it's been a good resource
00:20:40.500 for me
00:20:41.100 in kind of my toolbox
00:20:42.560 of being a dad
00:20:43.840 to draw,
00:20:45.380 you know,
00:20:45.640 to draw upon it.
00:20:46.500 And one that's definitely,
00:20:47.860 there's some science
00:20:48.500 behind it for sure.
00:20:49.800 Okay,
00:20:49.920 so we've talked about
00:20:50.580 the benefits for children.
00:20:51.980 Are there,
00:20:52.640 is there any research
00:20:53.240 about the benefits
00:20:53.920 for parents?
00:20:55.360 Yeah,
00:20:55.800 it's interesting.
00:20:56.280 The parent research
00:20:58.520 is,
00:20:59.860 there's a lot of stuff
00:21:01.400 on,
00:21:02.700 not necessarily
00:21:03.340 roughhousing proper,
00:21:04.640 but of course
00:21:05.260 physical activity.
00:21:06.740 But it's actually
00:21:08.020 physical activity
00:21:08.960 that involves
00:21:09.620 other people.
00:21:12.220 So,
00:21:13.280 there is some
00:21:14.140 translation there.
00:21:14.980 And mainly
00:21:15.280 what I would say
00:21:15.900 to that is
00:21:16.460 that there's probably
00:21:17.240 a cognitive benefit
00:21:18.520 to playing in this way
00:21:20.500 with your kids.
00:21:22.340 Cognitive,
00:21:23.180 in terms of
00:21:23.780 kind of brain health.
00:21:25.920 So,
00:21:26.080 not only does it help,
00:21:27.180 you know,
00:21:27.600 simultaneous activation
00:21:28.620 helps kids' brains,
00:21:29.620 it probably helps
00:21:30.300 adults' brains as well.
00:21:32.540 The research isn't
00:21:33.360 as strong.
00:21:34.800 And then also,
00:21:35.620 I think,
00:21:35.860 just the connection piece.
00:21:37.900 And I think
00:21:38.620 that that's the other
00:21:39.260 big,
00:21:39.720 the big benefit.
00:21:41.480 You know,
00:21:41.700 oxytocin not only
00:21:42.880 helps with connection,
00:21:43.680 it actually helps
00:21:44.700 counteract the stress response.
00:21:46.680 So,
00:21:46.920 if you're really,
00:21:47.540 you know,
00:21:47.800 if you're feeling
00:21:48.640 your stress level
00:21:49.560 as a parent
00:21:50.140 is really high,
00:21:51.100 which a lot of ours is,
00:21:52.200 including mine,
00:21:53.620 at roughhousing,
00:21:54.440 the release of oxytocin
00:21:55.700 actually helps
00:21:56.160 counteract cortisol.
00:21:58.300 That's the other
00:21:58.880 big kind of medicine
00:21:59.900 in that sense.
00:22:03.100 Very good.
00:22:03.700 So,
00:22:03.860 if you had a bad day
00:22:04.840 at work,
00:22:06.260 play with your kids.
00:22:09.300 That's right.
00:22:10.000 Yeah.
00:22:10.540 Yeah,
00:22:10.960 I love how roughhousing
00:22:12.320 is the answer to everything.
00:22:13.320 I'm joking.
00:22:14.740 It seems like that,
00:22:15.480 though.
00:22:15.560 It's great.
00:22:15.980 So,
00:22:18.240 how soon
00:22:19.440 can you start
00:22:20.580 roughhousing with your kids?
00:22:21.660 I mean,
00:22:21.860 is there guidelines
00:22:22.600 that just sort of like
00:22:23.280 when you think
00:22:23.740 your kid is ready for it
00:22:24.980 or is there a time
00:22:26.800 when you,
00:22:27.020 I mean,
00:22:27.360 definitely don't want
00:22:28.040 to start roughhousing
00:22:28.720 as soon as they're
00:22:29.180 out of the womb.
00:22:30.980 That wouldn't be good.
00:22:32.040 That's a great question.
00:22:32.660 But like,
00:22:33.020 you know,
00:22:33.200 is there any guidelines
00:22:34.120 on when you can start
00:22:35.200 kind of doing
00:22:35.620 a little bit of
00:22:36.200 rough and tumble play?
00:22:38.260 Yeah,
00:22:38.620 it's a great question.
00:22:39.420 What I,
00:22:39.980 I think the best guideline
00:22:41.220 is that usually over,
00:22:43.700 there's some gentle things
00:22:44.980 that you can do
00:22:45.640 even at six months of age.
00:22:48.460 And that just involves
00:22:49.620 gentle nudging,
00:22:50.640 rolling them around
00:22:51.360 the carpet,
00:22:52.880 basically lifting them
00:22:54.440 up in the air.
00:22:56.820 But the key on that
00:22:58.380 is really,
00:22:59.420 it comes down,
00:22:59.940 again,
00:23:00.120 back to the knowledge
00:23:00.980 is what equals safety,
00:23:02.220 not prohibition.
00:23:03.780 It's basically,
00:23:04.780 it's related to their
00:23:05.820 neck development,
00:23:07.440 their muscles,
00:23:07.980 their muscles in their neck.
00:23:09.980 That's,
00:23:10.500 it may seem pretty obvious,
00:23:11.480 but it's basically,
00:23:12.760 you know,
00:23:12.920 once kids can hold
00:23:14.760 their necks upright
00:23:15.820 on their own,
00:23:17.260 that's usually a good sign
00:23:18.380 that you can kind of start
00:23:19.520 being a little more
00:23:21.920 physical with them.
00:23:23.340 When they aren't,
00:23:24.080 when their necks are not,
00:23:25.620 when they're not able
00:23:28.360 to support their necks
00:23:29.160 on their own,
00:23:29.960 that's when you just want
00:23:30.640 to keep the gentle nudging
00:23:31.960 and rolling around
00:23:33.240 on the floor.
00:23:34.720 In general,
00:23:35.320 most,
00:23:35.640 the peak age
00:23:36.360 for roughhousing
00:23:37.000 is ages two to eight.
00:23:40.120 After eight,
00:23:41.560 it becomes more
00:23:42.760 of that physical challenge
00:23:44.000 kind of stuff
00:23:44.680 and less wrestling,
00:23:46.640 pillow fights
00:23:47.300 and that kind of
00:23:48.280 improvisational stuff.
00:23:49.400 It's much more structured.
00:23:51.300 I used to jump off
00:23:52.320 the roof with my dad
00:23:53.420 when I was a teenager
00:23:54.820 and learning how to land
00:23:57.240 safely and doing
00:23:58.100 that kind of stuff.
00:23:59.040 That's awesome.
00:23:59.760 I mean,
00:24:00.060 yeah,
00:24:00.360 if you did that today,
00:24:01.660 like the neighbors
00:24:02.200 would be calling
00:24:02.880 DHS.
00:24:03.560 I thought you'd be in jail.
00:24:06.160 There's a dad
00:24:06.940 jumping off the roof
00:24:07.740 with his three-year-old.
00:24:09.320 That's right.
00:24:11.260 Well,
00:24:11.380 I mean,
00:24:11.520 speaking of,
00:24:12.100 I'm sure there's
00:24:12.980 some dads out there
00:24:14.040 who are listening
00:24:14.540 and maybe roughhousing
00:24:16.660 doesn't come naturally
00:24:17.520 to them.
00:24:18.080 They didn't do
00:24:18.960 when they were a kid
00:24:19.860 or whatever.
00:24:20.680 They're not sure
00:24:21.440 how to go about doing it.
00:24:23.980 Any guidelines
00:24:24.640 on getting started
00:24:25.820 with roughhousing?
00:24:26.940 Yeah,
00:24:27.360 I would say two things.
00:24:28.460 One is
00:24:29.280 fall over.
00:24:32.780 Just start
00:24:33.560 falling over
00:24:34.480 randomly.
00:24:35.880 Kids will love that.
00:24:37.260 They'll jump on you.
00:24:39.160 You don't have to do
00:24:39.620 anything other than
00:24:40.520 just,
00:24:41.060 you know,
00:24:41.720 feign a trip
00:24:43.820 or a fall
00:24:44.500 and then just fall
00:24:45.620 on the ground
00:24:46.120 in agony
00:24:46.700 and the kids will laugh
00:24:47.760 and then they'll jump
00:24:48.980 on you
00:24:49.480 and you can kind of
00:24:50.260 roll around
00:24:50.780 and start there.
00:24:51.600 The other thing
00:24:52.020 though I would say
00:24:52.620 is that
00:24:53.640 follow the giggles.
00:24:55.880 What I mean by that
00:24:57.340 is that
00:24:58.540 it's
00:24:59.000 the joke
00:25:00.600 or the playtime
00:25:01.760 or the rowdiness
00:25:03.340 will get old
00:25:05.360 for you
00:25:06.140 before,
00:25:07.300 or long before
00:25:08.280 usually
00:25:08.820 it gets old
00:25:09.540 for your kids
00:25:10.940 or child
00:25:12.860 and what that means
00:25:14.280 is that
00:25:14.640 just keep doing it.
00:25:15.720 So fall over again
00:25:16.760 or,
00:25:18.880 you know,
00:25:19.860 throw them up
00:25:20.860 in the air again
00:25:21.600 or have them
00:25:22.360 climb on your back
00:25:23.120 again
00:25:23.420 and run around
00:25:23.920 the house again.
00:25:25.000 If they're liking it
00:25:26.200 and they're giggling,
00:25:27.740 just keep doing it
00:25:29.820 even if it feels
00:25:30.560 like it's getting old.
00:25:31.920 And you also have
00:25:32.680 in your book
00:25:33.200 like examples,
00:25:34.200 like kind of suggestions
00:25:35.060 for like roughhousing moves,
00:25:36.640 right?
00:25:37.220 Yeah.
00:25:37.880 Yeah.
00:25:38.160 So check that out.
00:25:38.800 Some great stuff.
00:25:39.980 Yeah.
00:25:41.020 Oh, thanks.
00:25:41.660 Yeah.
00:25:41.980 Yeah.
00:25:42.140 The book has a lot
00:25:42.720 of activities.
00:25:43.500 I think there's
00:25:43.820 over a hundred activities
00:25:45.460 and a lot of different
00:25:46.100 kids to think about
00:25:47.840 and to have fun with.
00:25:49.420 Yeah.
00:25:49.920 My son's favorite
00:25:51.080 is Baby Suplex.
00:25:53.700 I just basically
00:25:54.500 like just take him
00:25:55.160 kind of throw him
00:25:56.660 over my,
00:25:56.940 not throw him
00:25:57.360 over my shoulder.
00:25:57.980 I don't know.
00:25:58.160 It's basically
00:25:58.540 like a WrestleMania
00:25:59.220 Suplex.
00:26:01.080 I love it.
00:26:02.220 He just like wants
00:26:02.780 to wrestle
00:26:03.240 and then the other ones
00:26:05.280 where I just,
00:26:05.880 he calls it
00:26:06.360 Scoop-A-Bed
00:26:07.120 and we just like,
00:26:07.980 it's like when we
00:26:08.580 throw him on our bed
00:26:09.400 and that's that.
00:26:11.460 I mean,
00:26:11.660 it's really simple stuff.
00:26:12.880 We call it,
00:26:13.140 yeah.
00:26:13.620 It's really,
00:26:14.260 yeah,
00:26:14.480 we call it big,
00:26:15.200 the same move,
00:26:16.500 we call it Big Drop
00:26:17.880 in my house.
00:26:18.540 Big Drop.
00:26:19.320 Basically lift kids up
00:26:20.600 and so,
00:26:21.020 you know,
00:26:21.200 they're kind of in,
00:26:22.420 they're lying on their back
00:26:23.360 and lift them up
00:26:24.020 and then just drop them
00:26:24.840 right in the bed.
00:26:28.220 I love it.
00:26:29.600 All right,
00:26:29.800 well,
00:26:30.160 Anthony,
00:26:30.520 where can people find out
00:26:31.500 more about your work
00:26:32.220 on roughhousing?
00:26:33.480 Yeah,
00:26:33.820 so the,
00:26:34.320 there's a website,
00:26:36.100 theartofruffhousing.com,
00:26:37.420 although I would say
00:26:38.080 that the Facebook page
00:26:39.380 for the,
00:26:39.880 which is also
00:26:40.440 the Art of Roughhousing
00:26:41.200 is updated a little bit
00:26:42.240 more regularly
00:26:43.000 than the website
00:26:44.640 and then my Twitter handle
00:26:46.080 is Rowdy Dad
00:26:46.980 and anybody can contact
00:26:48.960 me directly to Twitter.
00:26:50.700 Fantastic.
00:26:51.580 Well,
00:26:51.820 Anthony DeBenedet,
00:26:52.800 thank you so much
00:26:53.540 for your time.
00:26:54.080 It's been a pleasure.
00:26:55.320 Oh,
00:26:55.560 Brett,
00:26:55.800 thanks for having me
00:26:56.540 and I love your work
00:26:58.200 and keep it up.
00:26:59.200 Thank you very much.
00:27:01.080 Our guest today
00:27:01.740 was Dr. Anthony DeBenedet.
00:27:03.160 His book is
00:27:03.880 The Art of Roughhousing
00:27:05.560 and you can find that
00:27:06.500 on Amazon.com.
00:27:08.520 You can find out
00:27:09.160 more information
00:27:09.780 about his book
00:27:10.400 at theartofruffhousing.com.
00:27:12.700 Well,
00:27:15.020 that wraps up
00:27:15.700 another edition
00:27:16.360 of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:27:18.360 For more manly tips
00:27:19.240 and advice,
00:27:19.780 make sure to check out
00:27:20.500 the Art of Manliness website
00:27:21.600 at artofmanliness.com
00:27:23.100 and if you enjoy the podcast,
00:27:25.160 we'd really appreciate it
00:27:26.640 if you would go
00:27:27.680 onto iTunes
00:27:28.980 or to Stitcher
00:27:29.760 or whatever you use
00:27:30.440 to listen to the podcast
00:27:31.680 and give us a review.
00:27:33.200 That will help us
00:27:34.280 and help spread the word
00:27:35.700 about the podcast.
00:27:37.040 So until next time,
00:27:37.800 this is Brett McKay
00:27:38.500 telling you to stay manly.
00:27:40.540 We'll see you next time.