The Art of Manliness - #66： The Art of Roughhousing with Anthony T. DeBenedet

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00:01:47.740 Brett McKay here,

00:01:48.760 and welcome to another edition

00:01:50.000 of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:01:52.020 Well, I'm a dad.

00:01:53.600 I know a lot of you who are listening are dads,

00:01:56.120 or some of you have the goal

00:01:57.280 of being a father one day.

00:01:58.380 So this podcast is for you guys.

00:02:00.420 One of my favorite things to do as a dad

00:02:02.540 is roughhousing with my son, Gus.

00:02:05.720 He's three years old.

00:02:06.580 We've been roughhousing since he was about a year.

00:02:09.660 It's just so much fun, you know,

00:02:11.440 just wrestling with him on the ground,

00:02:13.260 throwing him up in the air,

00:02:14.940 doing body slams on the bed,

00:02:16.760 doing baby suplexes.

00:02:17.960 I mean, Gus just gets a kick out of it.

00:02:19.600 It's always fun when I'm like engrossed in work

00:02:22.160 and Gus comes and pulls on my arm

00:02:24.880 and said he wants to wrestle with dad.

00:02:26.900 That's how he says it.

00:02:27.880 Anyways, I have a lot of fun.

00:02:29.420 It's just a lot of great memories.

00:02:31.000 But there's actually some benefits

00:02:33.940 that come along with roughhousing

00:02:35.500 besides just getting some exercise

00:02:37.080 and having fun with dad.

00:02:38.560 Our guest today actually wrote a book

00:02:40.780 on the topic of roughhousing

00:02:42.040 and the benefits of roughhousing.

00:02:43.780 His name is Dr. Anthony DeBenedet.

00:02:45.900 He's a board certified physician

00:02:48.000 and the book that he co-authored

00:02:50.000 is The Art of Roughhousing.

00:02:52.540 And today we're going to talk about

00:02:54.500 the research that has come out

00:02:56.420 about the benefits of roughhousing

00:02:58.100 and basically how it makes your kid awesome.

00:03:00.240 It helps your kid become smarter,

00:03:02.080 more ethical, more moral,

00:03:04.340 you name it,

00:03:05.280 and it strengthens the father-child bond.

00:03:07.880 So you're going to really,

00:03:09.080 if you're a dad,

00:03:09.940 you're going to really enjoy this podcast.

00:03:11.180 So stay tuned.

00:03:11.940 Anthony DeBenedet,

00:03:16.880 welcome to the show.

00:03:18.140 Oh, it's great to be here, Brett.

00:03:19.280 Thanks for having me.

00:03:20.200 I'm such a fan of The Art of Manliness.

00:03:22.160 Well, thank you so much.

00:03:22.800 I appreciate that.

00:03:24.280 All right.

00:03:24.540 So your book is The Art of Roughhousing.

00:03:27.200 What inspired you to write a book

00:03:29.120 about roughhousing?

00:03:30.320 Because it seems one of those things

00:03:31.500 that everyone just,

00:03:32.840 I don't know,

00:03:33.040 it's kind of a,

00:03:34.200 yeah,

00:03:34.460 it's a childhood rite of passage.

00:03:35.920 Everyone does it.

00:03:37.100 Why did you feel compelled

00:03:38.120 to write a book about it?

00:03:39.300 Right.

00:03:39.600 What got me interested in roughhousing

00:03:42.560 was really two things.

00:03:44.960 One was basically,

00:03:46.980 it was a way that I found

00:03:48.780 to connect with my daughter

00:03:52.580 when she was two or three.

00:03:53.980 I was kind of on this road

00:03:55.060 to disconnection

00:03:56.740 and kind of dad failure trajectory

00:04:00.340 and play and rough and tumble play

00:04:03.500 in particular really kicked us back

00:04:07.080 into a better place.

00:04:09.600 And then also just really

00:04:11.560 the science behind it.

00:04:12.900 I was a,

00:04:13.880 I'm a working parent.

00:04:15.220 So I kind of wanted to find out

00:04:18.260 what would be the best thing

00:04:19.360 for my buck

00:04:20.180 in terms of the small amount of time

00:04:22.420 that I would have with my kids

00:04:23.560 after work.

00:04:24.720 And I found that rough and tumble play

00:04:27.200 really had a lot of great

00:04:28.340 developmental benefits for kids.

00:04:30.580 And there was a lot of cool science

00:04:31.720 behind it.

00:04:32.640 That's what got me interested

00:04:33.600 in doing the book.

00:04:34.600 Great.

00:04:34.780 So yeah,

00:04:35.100 I want to talk about the science

00:04:36.800 and research

00:04:37.260 because I think a lot of people

00:04:38.180 are going to be surprised to buy it.

00:04:39.980 But before that,

00:04:40.880 I mean,

00:04:41.040 do you think rough housing

00:04:42.180 has a PR problem?

00:04:44.060 Because we've written about

00:04:45.040 rough housing on the site

00:04:46.080 and we've done videos

00:04:48.420 and every time we do,

00:04:49.380 someone's like,

00:04:49.840 oh yeah,

00:04:51.080 everyone says rough housing is,

00:04:52.760 it's,

00:04:52.900 you know,

00:04:53.040 people are trying to outlaw

00:04:53.860 rough housing.

00:04:54.480 Why do you think there's that perception

00:04:56.700 that rough housing is being banned

00:04:59.700 or looked down upon?

00:05:01.460 I think it boils down to really one big thing

00:05:04.220 and that's kind of our obsession

00:05:05.860 with safety in our culture.

00:05:08.840 And I don't want to be on too,

00:05:09.940 too much of a soapbox,

00:05:11.360 but I think that there's been

00:05:12.660 a lot of great things

00:05:14.200 regarding child safety

00:05:16.220 in terms of car seats.

00:05:17.520 I mean,

00:05:17.640 those are great

00:05:18.320 and bike helmets are great,

00:05:20.320 but it seems like we've almost gone

00:05:22.440 too far

00:05:23.980 and we've kind of become

00:05:25.520 more afraid of a bruised knee

00:05:27.980 or a hurt feeling

00:05:29.940 and kind of life's real dangers.

00:05:31.660 And so I think that

00:05:32.220 when people start thinking

00:05:33.500 about rough housing,

00:05:34.720 they think about,

00:05:35.960 oh,

00:05:36.060 that's going to be dangerous.

00:05:37.520 And actually,

00:05:38.840 it's not,

00:05:40.140 that's not really

00:05:40.920 what the research shows

00:05:42.220 from a pure physical injury standpoint.

00:05:44.780 We don't see a lot of injuries

00:05:46.060 from healthy rough housing

00:05:47.760 and it actually is very safe

00:05:50.700 if you have kind of

00:05:52.060 some basic knowledge

00:05:53.700 and basic principles

00:05:55.300 that are guiding you

00:05:56.320 during the playtime.

00:05:57.520 Interesting.

00:05:57.800 Yeah,

00:05:57.940 it was funny.

00:05:58.460 When I did a,

00:05:59.400 you know,

00:05:59.540 we did a post

00:06:00.140 about rough housing

00:06:01.020 and I,

00:06:02.140 this,

00:06:02.360 my son was like

00:06:03.800 18 months old

00:06:04.660 at the time

00:06:05.180 and I just posted

00:06:06.600 a little iPhone video

00:06:07.680 of me rough housing,

00:06:09.220 you know,

00:06:09.620 nothing like,

00:06:10.300 and I wasn't like,

00:06:10.900 I was being very gentle.

00:06:12.780 Um,

00:06:13.880 I mean,

00:06:14.620 yeah,

00:06:14.920 he was having fun,

00:06:16.020 he was laughing

00:06:16.640 and then someone on Facebook

00:06:18.360 said they're going to report me

00:06:19.480 to Facebook

00:06:20.020 that I was abusing my child.

00:06:23.620 I mean,

00:06:23.920 I was just like,

00:06:24.540 wait,

00:06:24.780 what?

00:06:25.220 Yeah.

00:06:25.780 And it's funny

00:06:26.400 that the whole,

00:06:27.140 you know,

00:06:27.300 the,

00:06:27.620 we're,

00:06:28.340 there's,

00:06:28.580 there is sort of,

00:06:29.060 it seems there is sort of a reaction

00:06:30.620 to the overreaction

00:06:32.160 with safety

00:06:32.760 because,

00:06:33.020 you know,

00:06:33.120 recently we had this article

00:06:34.200 in the Atlantic Monthly

00:06:35.880 about,

00:06:36.240 are we coddling our kids too much

00:06:38.740 or was something wrong

00:06:39.580 with helicopter parenting?

00:06:41.480 Um,

00:06:41.980 right.

00:06:42.400 And there's all this research

00:06:43.380 saying that,

00:06:44.120 yeah,

00:06:44.260 we're actually hurting our kids

00:06:45.320 by trying to protect them too much.

00:06:47.300 Right.

00:06:47.660 That's exactly right.

00:06:48.640 It's,

00:06:48.980 that,

00:06:49.140 and roughhousing fits

00:06:50.080 kind of right into that paradigm.

00:06:52.360 Uh,

00:06:52.680 and in,

00:06:53.060 in a lot of ways

00:06:54.480 kind of the roots

00:06:55.200 of that paradigm

00:06:55.980 and that,

00:06:57.240 you know,

00:06:57.680 we,

00:06:58.040 we think that,

00:06:59.540 that we can't

00:07:00.920 be playfully physical

00:07:03.060 with kids,

00:07:03.980 that that's wrong

00:07:05.200 or that that's not our role

00:07:06.360 as parents

00:07:07.060 and that we should be,

00:07:08.060 you know,

00:07:08.960 providing structure

00:07:10.060 and being disciplinarians

00:07:11.980 and all of that kind of stuff

00:07:13.180 and,

00:07:13.660 and really,

00:07:15.200 you know,

00:07:15.520 the essence of their world

00:07:16.960 is a playful world.

00:07:19.520 I mean,

00:07:19.660 that is their language

00:07:20.620 and when we roll up our sleeves

00:07:22.440 and get down

00:07:23.320 and wrestle

00:07:24.300 or fall over

00:07:25.700 and giggle with them

00:07:26.780 and do those kinds of,

00:07:27.740 kind of activity,

00:07:29.500 you know,

00:07:29.620 horseplay kind of things

00:07:30.640 that that's,

00:07:31.260 that's really where we're starting

00:07:32.440 to really connect with them.

00:07:34.040 We're speaking their language.

00:07:35.560 Yeah.

00:07:36.200 So let's get into the research

00:07:37.520 because this is the thing

00:07:38.080 that fascinated me

00:07:39.300 the most about your book.

00:07:41.360 I mean,

00:07:41.580 there's actually science

00:07:42.540 that says,

00:07:43.360 yeah,

00:07:43.620 you should rough house,

00:07:45.120 you know,

00:07:45.260 you should give your baby

00:07:47.580 a baby suplex,

00:07:48.820 basically.

00:07:49.900 Right.

00:07:50.760 So what,

00:07:51.340 what does the science say

00:07:52.340 about rough housing?

00:07:54.220 Yeah,

00:07:54.620 the science is what,

00:07:55.940 what grabbed me too

00:07:57.240 as kind of a,

00:07:59.260 as kind of a trained scientist

00:08:00.580 and,

00:08:00.960 and,

00:08:01.460 you know,

00:08:01.660 it really is three,

00:08:02.620 there's three things

00:08:03.460 that I tell folks

00:08:05.140 that three big benefits

00:08:06.560 that kids get

00:08:07.440 when,

00:08:08.420 when mom or dad

00:08:09.560 actually rough house with them.

00:08:11.260 And that,

00:08:12.300 three things are

00:08:12.920 intelligence,

00:08:14.400 creativity,

00:08:15.360 and connection.

00:08:17.280 Those three things.

00:08:18.720 And intelligence is,

00:08:21.340 it's really fascinating to me

00:08:22.860 because,

00:08:23.600 you know,

00:08:23.920 there's a lot of ways,

00:08:24.700 first of all,

00:08:25.560 there's a lot of ways

00:08:26.100 to think about intelligence,

00:08:27.360 but,

00:08:28.200 you know,

00:08:28.420 from a purely IQ standpoint,

00:08:31.280 when we think about

00:08:31.840 brain development in kids,

00:08:33.180 the biggest,

00:08:33.580 the biggest years

00:08:34.440 of brain development

00:08:35.120 are ages,

00:08:35.540 essentially from

00:08:37.120 age one through eight,

00:08:39.480 essentially.

00:08:41.440 That's when a lot

00:08:42.380 of neural connections

00:08:43.180 are happening.

00:08:44.220 And rough housing

00:08:45.180 causes something

00:08:46.860 called simultaneous

00:08:48.080 activation

00:08:49.180 of the brain.

00:08:50.340 And that really

00:08:51.000 is the essence

00:08:51.600 of brain development.

00:08:52.540 That means that

00:08:53.000 multiple parts

00:08:54.320 of a child's brain

00:08:55.580 are being stimulated

00:08:57.380 all at once.

00:08:59.180 So,

00:08:59.720 their cortex is firing,

00:09:00.800 their amygdala is firing,

00:09:01.640 their cerebellum,

00:09:02.320 all these parts

00:09:03.280 of the brain are firing,

00:09:04.580 and that is what's causing

00:09:06.400 kind of neural connections

00:09:08.380 to develop.

00:09:09.240 And that's really

00:09:09.680 the essence

00:09:10.120 of brain development.

00:09:11.540 The only analogy

00:09:12.440 I can give to

00:09:12.980 in the adult world

00:09:14.220 is if you were

00:09:14.760 running a marathon

00:09:15.620 and you were

00:09:17.260 at the same time

00:09:18.120 getting a hug

00:09:18.960 and reading a book

00:09:21.040 all at the same time.

00:09:22.800 That's kind of

00:09:23.520 the analogy

00:09:24.160 of the adult world,

00:09:24.940 but that's really

00:09:25.420 what rough housing

00:09:26.040 is doing for kids' brains.

00:09:27.940 And that's,

00:09:28.740 you know,

00:09:28.900 if you just talk

00:09:29.360 about book smarts

00:09:30.200 or kind of pure memory,

00:09:31.640 you know,

00:09:31.820 your ability

00:09:32.340 to memorize,

00:09:33.280 which is basically,

00:09:34.920 you know,

00:09:35.440 the foundation

00:09:36.000 of what people

00:09:36.700 say book smarts,

00:09:37.940 that's what it's doing.

00:09:39.720 It's creating

00:09:40.680 the simultaneous activation,

00:09:42.460 but even more so

00:09:43.660 than that,

00:09:44.100 going to some

00:09:44.560 of the other benefits,

00:09:45.820 or actually,

00:09:46.300 real quick on intelligence,

00:09:48.080 because my favorite

00:09:48.600 is emotional intelligence.

00:09:50.820 And rough housing

00:09:51.260 does a great job

00:09:52.240 of imparting

00:09:53.440 emotional intelligence

00:09:54.460 and emotional intelligence

00:09:56.180 concepts

00:09:57.000 in children.

00:09:58.780 And the basic

00:09:59.320 shift of that

00:10:00.260 is that

00:10:01.060 emotional intelligence

00:10:02.640 comes down

00:10:03.060 to two things.

00:10:03.660 One is understanding

00:10:04.340 your own emotion.

00:10:05.820 And then the second thing

00:10:06.640 is kind of a little bit

00:10:07.560 more sci-fi,

00:10:08.420 and that's being able

00:10:09.360 to sense the emotions

00:10:10.400 of others

00:10:11.060 without really even

00:10:12.380 talking to them.

00:10:14.160 And rough housing

00:10:14.800 does a great job

00:10:15.680 of teaching kids

00:10:16.400 how to do that,

00:10:17.180 because basically

00:10:17.900 when you have

00:10:18.460 a rough housing

00:10:19.200 play period,

00:10:20.800 you have a rev up time

00:10:22.100 where kids start feeling

00:10:23.120 really,

00:10:23.540 really high energy

00:10:24.280 really,

00:10:24.780 really quick.

00:10:25.960 And then there's

00:10:26.460 a wind down period

00:10:27.520 where they start

00:10:28.200 to understand

00:10:28.680 what it feels like

00:10:29.360 to have low energy,

00:10:30.820 low emotion.

00:10:32.540 And that,

00:10:32.980 that basically,

00:10:34.400 that arc

00:10:35.100 of winding up

00:10:36.200 and revving,

00:10:37.060 or winding up

00:10:37.980 and winding down

00:10:38.940 is basically

00:10:41.260 the essence

00:10:42.120 of understanding

00:10:42.840 your own emotions.

00:10:44.720 And kind of getting

00:10:45.860 that kind of

00:10:47.040 barometer

00:10:47.540 or dimmer switch

00:10:48.680 instilled in the kids

00:10:50.340 at an early age

00:10:51.380 is really the essence

00:10:52.220 of emotional intelligence.

00:10:53.740 The second piece,

00:10:54.740 you know,

00:10:54.940 understanding other people,

00:10:56.220 or being able

00:10:56.720 to sense

00:10:57.140 other people's emotions,

00:10:59.000 is basically,

00:11:00.000 rough housing

00:11:00.380 is great for that

00:11:01.020 because it's a lot

00:11:01.680 of nonverbal

00:11:02.580 body language

00:11:03.400 kind of stuff.

00:11:04.260 It's eye contact,

00:11:05.840 it's body language,

00:11:07.080 and so as you

00:11:07.740 begin to sense

00:11:09.100 the emotions

00:11:09.900 of dad

00:11:10.580 or mom, 0.83

00:11:13.340 then you kind of

00:11:14.160 transcend that,

00:11:15.160 that ability

00:11:15.900 out into the real world

00:11:17.160 and being able

00:11:17.980 to sense

00:11:18.300 other people's emotions.

00:11:20.040 There's another

00:11:20.280 two big benefits,

00:11:21.160 creativity.

00:11:21.880 Creativity is pretty easy.

00:11:24.040 Rough housing

00:11:24.600 and wild

00:11:25.500 and kind of horseplay

00:11:26.660 is all about

00:11:27.580 creative problems.

00:11:30.040 So, you know,

00:11:30.780 kids love sharks

00:11:31.760 and glaciers

00:11:32.680 and volcanoes

00:11:33.760 and things that explode.

00:11:35.880 And so as you're

00:11:36.400 kind of on the ground

00:11:37.120 with them

00:11:37.600 and throwing around

00:11:38.200 pillows

00:11:38.560 or jumping from cushions

00:11:39.700 or mattress to mattress,

00:11:41.680 you can inject

00:11:42.540 creative problems

00:11:43.580 into the playtime.

00:11:44.620 Like, you know,

00:11:45.080 how do we get away

00:11:45.660 from these sharks?

00:11:46.420 They're going to attack

00:11:47.060 our island.

00:11:47.680 What do we do?

00:11:48.820 And kids will come up

00:11:49.580 with amazing,

00:11:50.720 creative,

00:11:51.280 imaginative solutions.

00:11:53.380 And that kind of

00:11:54.440 starts the wheels turning

00:11:55.540 in terms of,

00:11:56.940 and the research

00:11:57.440 shows this,

00:11:58.120 in terms of

00:11:58.600 developing

00:11:59.640 divergent thinkers.

00:12:00.720 And that's what we want

00:12:01.740 kids to be

00:12:02.440 and we want everybody

00:12:03.560 to be divergent thinkers.

00:12:04.940 And that's,

00:12:05.700 you know,

00:12:06.060 the idea that there's

00:12:06.880 more than one solution

00:12:08.100 to a problem.

00:12:09.440 That's really the essence

00:12:10.260 of creativity.

00:12:11.140 It's not so much like,

00:12:12.500 can you play music

00:12:13.320 or a musical instrument

00:12:14.180 or can you create

00:12:15.400 a painting?

00:12:16.080 It's really,

00:12:16.880 can you solve problems

00:12:18.240 in different ways?

00:12:20.140 And then the final one

00:12:20.920 is connection,

00:12:21.600 which gets me

00:12:22.080 really excited.

00:12:23.260 And that's,

00:12:24.420 I think that,

00:12:26.120 you know,

00:12:26.400 when you ask parents,

00:12:28.340 you know,

00:12:28.500 what do you really want

00:12:29.600 for your kids?

00:12:30.420 Well,

00:12:30.600 everybody says,

00:12:31.200 you know,

00:12:31.300 we want them

00:12:31.720 to be happy.

00:12:33.060 And then the second thing

00:12:33.880 I think is that we want

00:12:34.760 some connection with them

00:12:35.800 so that when they get older

00:12:36.680 they might ask us

00:12:37.560 for some advice

00:12:38.360 in some context

00:12:39.940 or they might want us

00:12:41.500 to be a part of their lives

00:12:42.780 in some way.

00:12:44.180 And I think building

00:12:44.840 that connection

00:12:45.500 through roughhousing

00:12:46.340 at a young age

00:12:47.260 is really amazing.

00:12:48.680 And how does it do that?

00:12:49.520 Going back to the brain,

00:12:50.500 it actually,

00:12:50.880 so roughhousing

00:12:51.360 releases oxytocin,

00:12:53.480 which is the cuddle chemical,

00:12:54.540 which has been in the news

00:12:55.640 and the media

00:12:56.220 quite a bit

00:12:57.420 over the past

00:12:58.040 five to ten years,

00:12:58.960 a lot of research

00:12:59.780 being done.

00:13:01.460 Oxytocin is basically

00:13:02.960 the biological basis

00:13:04.140 of empathy.

00:13:05.920 It essentially tells somebody

00:13:07.320 that we're really there

00:13:08.180 with them.

00:13:08.780 It's released with,

00:13:09.660 like a genuine hug

00:13:11.040 or a handshake

00:13:12.460 or a fist bump,

00:13:13.200 but it's also released

00:13:13.960 during roughhousing.

00:13:15.000 So kids basically,

00:13:17.560 and adults too,

00:13:18.520 kind of developed

00:13:19.320 that biologically

00:13:20.040 connection early

00:13:21.360 in that kind of playtime.

00:13:22.580 Sorry,

00:13:22.820 that was a long answer.

00:13:23.780 No,

00:13:24.100 no,

00:13:24.340 I love it

00:13:25.120 because it's like

00:13:26.000 fascinating stuff.

00:13:26.800 So intelligence,

00:13:27.860 creativity,

00:13:28.240 connection.

00:13:29.580 I can say

00:13:30.360 from my own experience,

00:13:31.560 like with my son,

00:13:33.340 I've definitely seen that,

00:13:34.800 especially the emotional part

00:13:37.060 because,

00:13:38.420 you know,

00:13:39.500 sometimes,

00:13:40.300 like,

00:13:40.720 you know,

00:13:41.080 when you're roughhoused,

00:13:42.000 there are some shots

00:13:43.260 below the belt

00:13:44.000 or,

00:13:44.720 you know,

00:13:44.960 you get a knee

00:13:45.780 on the nose

00:13:46.520 and like it hurts

00:13:47.360 and you're like,

00:13:47.780 oh,

00:13:48.580 and it's interesting

00:13:49.180 to see my son

00:13:49.980 come up to me,

00:13:50.620 you know,

00:13:50.940 really,

00:13:51.360 you know,

00:13:51.540 when he's like

00:13:52.220 one and a half,

00:13:53.180 two and say,

00:13:53.860 oh,

00:13:54.160 daddy hurt

00:13:54.800 and daddy okay.

00:13:56.280 he'll attend to that.

00:13:57.440 He'll attend to that,

00:13:58.240 right.

00:13:58.880 And that's because

00:13:59.320 a lot of those chemicals

00:14:00.360 are,

00:14:00.780 yeah,

00:14:00.980 exactly.

00:14:01.720 Yeah,

00:14:01.920 and he says,

00:14:02.440 I'm sorry.

00:14:03.440 And that's another thing too

00:14:04.700 is like he's learned

00:14:05.380 sort of like boundaries,

00:14:06.580 right?

00:14:06.800 Like he doesn't,

00:14:07.420 he knows like what's,

00:14:09.040 you know,

00:14:09.160 he can't go too far

00:14:10.120 thrush housing 0.99

00:14:10.740 because then it becomes

00:14:11.460 sort of malicious.

00:14:12.900 You know,

00:14:13.060 he's learned to restrain himself

00:14:14.620 a bit when we roughhouse.

00:14:16.320 He doesn't like,

00:14:17.360 you know,

00:14:17.600 stomp on my face basically.

00:14:19.220 He knows that's wrong. 0.83

00:14:22.620 Right,

00:14:23.240 exactly.

00:14:23.820 So maybe they'll pay off

00:14:24.640 later in the future

00:14:25.440 when he's an adult

00:14:26.300 and he,

00:14:26.800 you know,

00:14:26.960 be ethical.

00:14:28.040 Okay,

00:14:28.380 so we're going to take a quick break

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00:15:27.660 And now back to the show.

00:15:29.280 You mentioned at the beginning

00:15:30.740 that the reason

00:15:31.820 you got interested in a roughhousing

00:15:32.980 because you have a daughter.

00:15:34.420 And I thought,

00:15:35.520 we typically associate roughhousing

00:15:37.100 like something boys do with dads.

00:15:38.880 But you make an argument

00:15:39.900 that girls should roughhouse too. 1.00

00:15:41.820 Are there any unique benefits

00:15:43.100 that the research has found

00:15:44.360 that if dads roughhouse

00:15:45.740 with their daughters,

00:15:46.540 that will help them in some way

00:15:48.580 that's different from boys?

00:15:49.940 Yeah, there definitely are.

00:15:51.200 So real quick on the boys piece

00:15:53.540 and kind of on the piece.

00:15:54.900 So roughhousing is really,

00:15:56.600 when I try to tell folks,

00:15:57.500 it's really for everyone.

00:15:58.600 So it's for both boys and girls

00:16:00.220 and moms and dads.

00:16:01.920 There's no real gender bias.

00:16:03.220 I think that dads and boys

00:16:05.420 may come a little bit more naturally.

00:16:07.780 That's okay.

00:16:09.060 And just like for moms and girls,

00:16:10.740 nurturing might come

00:16:11.600 a little bit more naturally.

00:16:13.320 But I think for boys,

00:16:14.260 at least roughhousing,

00:16:16.160 you know, boys,

00:16:16.780 the most important thing for boys,

00:16:17.980 I have three girls.

00:16:19.280 So I, you know,

00:16:20.940 at least from what I've heard

00:16:22.180 and what I, you know,

00:16:23.400 as a man and what I believe

00:16:25.640 is that the most important thing

00:16:27.060 for boys to learn

00:16:27.840 before they leave the house

00:16:29.240 is actually that there's more

00:16:30.900 to, there's more

00:16:31.840 to physical contact

00:16:33.000 than sex and violence.

00:16:35.460 And that's, you know,

00:16:36.260 if you can get that lesson in

00:16:37.660 as a parent,

00:16:39.200 you're really doing 90%

00:16:40.960 of what will really be

00:16:42.600 successful skills

00:16:44.100 for your, for your son.

00:16:45.840 And roughhousing does a great job

00:16:47.260 of that, obviously,

00:16:48.320 because you're showing

00:16:49.660 that there's playfulness

00:16:50.600 to physical contact.

00:16:52.840 For girls,

00:16:53.900 the most important thing

00:16:54.880 I think that they can learn

00:16:56.600 before they leave the house

00:16:58.000 is to find their voice.

00:17:01.080 And, and that's,

00:17:02.400 you know,

00:17:02.540 that's one of the most powerful

00:17:03.340 things in the world

00:17:04.120 is that they,

00:17:04.920 they, the woman's voice.

00:17:06.820 And, and roughhousing

00:17:07.900 does a great job of that

00:17:09.240 a lot,

00:17:09.980 in a lot of ways

00:17:10.780 of what you were talking

00:17:11.520 about with your son

00:17:12.420 is that when something

00:17:14.340 doesn't feel right

00:17:15.240 or doesn't go right

00:17:16.140 or something is hurt

00:17:17.340 or somebody gets hurt,

00:17:19.080 that there's a lot of,

00:17:20.280 there's a speaking up.

00:17:21.760 There's a hold the action

00:17:23.560 kind of time period

00:17:25.020 where, where girls start 1.00

00:17:27.060 to really find that voice

00:17:28.580 and say what they didn't

00:17:29.840 like about the playtime

00:17:30.860 or what they did like

00:17:31.600 about it.

00:17:32.700 And even taking that

00:17:34.160 a step further

00:17:34.820 when they get a little

00:17:35.440 bit older.

00:17:36.100 So, you know,

00:17:36.860 after age eight

00:17:37.860 and kind of preteen years,

00:17:39.940 there's not so much

00:17:41.440 of the improvisational

00:17:42.500 roughhousing or wrestling

00:17:43.560 that goes on

00:17:44.240 when they're younger,

00:17:44.920 but it can become

00:17:46.060 much more about

00:17:47.420 physical challenges.

00:17:49.480 So, for instance,

00:17:50.860 doing a run together

00:17:51.780 or balancing on,

00:17:53.040 you know,

00:17:53.200 seeing how far

00:17:53.620 you can balance,

00:17:54.480 you know,

00:17:54.600 how long you can balance

00:17:55.340 it,

00:17:55.560 how high you can

00:17:57.000 jump off the surface.

00:17:59.280 And that also is all

00:18:00.680 about using your voice

00:18:01.880 and talking about

00:18:02.940 what your abilities are.

00:18:04.880 So I think that that's

00:18:06.180 a unique benefit

00:18:07.080 that girls get 1.00

00:18:08.420 pretty quickly.

00:18:09.760 Boys are usually 0.98

00:18:10.260 pretty good about

00:18:10.900 kind of yelling

00:18:11.480 and talking about

00:18:12.420 what they want to say

00:18:13.520 and doing what they,

00:18:14.660 but that voice

00:18:15.240 kind of comes quickly,

00:18:16.640 but they need to learn

00:18:17.740 that physical contact

00:18:18.740 to each.

00:18:19.160 And girls, 0.92

00:18:20.080 a little slower

00:18:20.660 to warm up,

00:18:21.260 but roughhousing

00:18:21.660 helps a lot in that way.

00:18:23.620 I think I've read

00:18:24.740 this in your book,

00:18:25.320 if I remember correctly,

00:18:26.120 that they've done studies

00:18:27.260 where they found

00:18:27.660 that girls that roughhoused 1.00

00:18:28.660 with their fathers

00:18:29.540 tend to not be

00:18:30.980 the queen bee,

00:18:31.860 you know,

00:18:32.200 that whenever they

00:18:32.940 get to become preteens.

00:18:34.200 Is that you?

00:18:34.760 Or is it mine somewhere?

00:18:35.580 Yeah.

00:18:36.240 Which I think is great.

00:18:37.120 I mean,

00:18:37.200 no one wants their daughter 1.00

00:18:38.060 to be that mean girl,

00:18:39.340 right?

00:18:39.860 Right.

00:18:40.460 So exactly.

00:18:41.160 And that goes back

00:18:41.980 to that,

00:18:42.420 I didn't actually talk

00:18:43.360 about this,

00:18:43.720 but real quickly,

00:18:44.340 the social intelligence

00:18:45.340 aspect,

00:18:46.580 another kind of intelligence

00:18:47.720 that roughhousing brings.

00:18:49.680 And that's the idea

00:18:51.040 of knowing

00:18:51.460 when to be a leader

00:18:52.360 and when to be a follower.

00:18:54.540 I think that that's,

00:18:55.840 you know,

00:18:55.980 in our country,

00:18:57.420 we talk a lot

00:18:58.060 about leadership

00:18:58.760 and of equal value

00:19:00.560 as followership.

00:19:02.440 We all have skills

00:19:03.580 that can be

00:19:05.200 imparted on others

00:19:06.600 and imparted

00:19:07.420 on our world

00:19:08.100 as a whole.

00:19:09.640 And that kind of is,

00:19:10.600 you know,

00:19:10.780 that's that leadership piece

00:19:12.080 of knowing when to do that.

00:19:13.080 But we also have,

00:19:14.120 we also need to be able

00:19:14.840 to know when to be followers

00:19:16.020 for the benefit

00:19:17.060 of the team

00:19:17.820 and the benefit

00:19:18.320 of the collective.

00:19:19.920 Yeah.

00:19:20.240 And yeah,

00:19:20.620 related to that too,

00:19:21.700 I mean,

00:19:21.820 yeah,

00:19:22.000 it does teach

00:19:22.520 that social intelligence

00:19:23.380 and it,

00:19:24.520 I think also

00:19:25.340 for me and my son,

00:19:26.760 like,

00:19:27.060 you know,

00:19:27.260 I'm definitely bigger

00:19:28.360 and stronger

00:19:28.900 than my son.

00:19:30.380 But,

00:19:30.880 you know,

00:19:31.020 sometimes I let him

00:19:32.100 just take control

00:19:33.000 and just like pound me,

00:19:34.120 right?

00:19:34.360 And just do whatever.

00:19:35.340 That's key.

00:19:36.700 Yeah.

00:19:37.940 No,

00:19:38.420 it's totally,

00:19:39.260 that's the social intelligence.

00:19:40.660 Yeah.

00:19:41.120 And hopefully I'm imparting

00:19:42.020 that,

00:19:42.200 you know,

00:19:42.420 even though you're strong

00:19:43.500 and bigger than the other guy,

00:19:45.140 you know,

00:19:45.360 sometimes you got to

00:19:46.000 take turns in roles,

00:19:47.340 right?

00:19:47.700 And like,

00:19:48.200 that's right.

00:19:48.820 Yeah.

00:19:49.960 Fascinating.

00:19:50.440 So,

00:19:50.620 I mean,

00:19:51.200 yeah,

00:19:51.440 so like roughhousing,

00:19:52.380 like it makes your kid

00:19:53.180 awesome,

00:19:53.860 basically.

00:19:54.900 Right.

00:19:56.700 Yeah,

00:19:57.140 you know,

00:19:57.720 I tell folks

00:19:58.600 when I talk to parenting

00:19:59.480 groups and stuff

00:20:00.160 that,

00:20:00.840 you know,

00:20:01.060 any,

00:20:01.560 anybody who comes on

00:20:02.480 and says that there is a,

00:20:04.160 there is a magic bullet

00:20:05.180 to parenting

00:20:05.780 should probably turn the,

00:20:07.340 you know,

00:20:07.600 turn the station

00:20:08.300 or walk out.

00:20:09.520 And I think what I'm trying

00:20:10.280 to say to folks

00:20:10.900 is that this was a tool,

00:20:12.520 at least for me,

00:20:13.720 that's helped a lot,

00:20:14.900 among other tools,

00:20:16.280 of course,

00:20:16.820 as a parent,

00:20:17.960 and that,

00:20:18.980 you know,

00:20:19.220 you know your kid best

00:20:20.420 and that it's not,

00:20:22.280 you know,

00:20:22.720 if you hear this podcast,

00:20:24.540 you're like,

00:20:24.780 okay,

00:20:24.940 I'm going to go home

00:20:25.480 and just start

00:20:26.220 throwing my kid around.

00:20:27.460 You know,

00:20:27.940 that might not be

00:20:28.640 exactly what to do.

00:20:29.560 It might be just getting

00:20:30.340 down on the floor

00:20:31.080 with them

00:20:31.600 or,

00:20:32.240 you know,

00:20:33.000 just pushing on hands

00:20:34.640 on each other

00:20:35.280 a little bit

00:20:35.900 and not necessarily

00:20:36.880 revving it up immediately.

00:20:39.040 But it's been a good resource

00:20:40.500 for me

00:20:41.100 in kind of my toolbox

00:20:42.560 of being a dad

00:20:43.840 to draw,

00:20:45.380 you know,

00:20:45.640 to draw upon it.

00:20:46.500 And one that's definitely,

00:20:47.860 there's some science

00:20:48.500 behind it for sure.

00:20:49.800 Okay,

00:20:49.920 so we've talked about

00:20:50.580 the benefits for children.

00:20:51.980 Are there,

00:20:52.640 is there any research

00:20:53.240 about the benefits

00:20:53.920 for parents?

00:20:55.360 Yeah,

00:20:55.800 it's interesting.

00:20:56.280 The parent research

00:20:58.520 is,

00:20:59.860 there's a lot of stuff

00:21:01.400 on,

00:21:02.700 not necessarily

00:21:03.340 roughhousing proper,

00:21:04.640 but of course

00:21:05.260 physical activity.

00:21:06.740 But it's actually

00:21:08.020 physical activity

00:21:08.960 that involves

00:21:09.620 other people.

00:21:12.220 So,

00:21:13.280 there is some

00:21:14.140 translation there.

00:21:14.980 And mainly

00:21:15.280 what I would say

00:21:15.900 to that is

00:21:16.460 that there's probably

00:21:17.240 a cognitive benefit

00:21:18.520 to playing in this way

00:21:20.500 with your kids.

00:21:22.340 Cognitive,

00:21:23.180 in terms of

00:21:23.780 kind of brain health.

00:21:25.920 So,

00:21:26.080 not only does it help,

00:21:27.180 you know,

00:21:27.600 simultaneous activation

00:21:28.620 helps kids' brains,

00:21:29.620 it probably helps

00:21:30.300 adults' brains as well.

00:21:32.540 The research isn't

00:21:33.360 as strong.

00:21:34.800 And then also,

00:21:35.620 I think,

00:21:35.860 just the connection piece.

00:21:37.900 And I think

00:21:38.620 that that's the other

00:21:39.260 big,

00:21:39.720 the big benefit.

00:21:41.480 You know,

00:21:41.700 oxytocin not only

00:21:42.880 helps with connection,

00:21:43.680 it actually helps

00:21:44.700 counteract the stress response.

00:21:46.680 So,

00:21:46.920 if you're really,

00:21:47.540 you know,

00:21:47.800 if you're feeling

00:21:48.640 your stress level

00:21:49.560 as a parent

00:21:50.140 is really high,

00:21:51.100 which a lot of ours is,

00:21:52.200 including mine,

00:21:53.620 at roughhousing,

00:21:54.440 the release of oxytocin

00:21:55.700 actually helps

00:21:56.160 counteract cortisol.

00:21:58.300 That's the other

00:21:58.880 big kind of medicine

00:21:59.900 in that sense.

00:22:03.100 Very good.

00:22:03.700 So,

00:22:03.860 if you had a bad day

00:22:04.840 at work,

00:22:06.260 play with your kids.

00:22:09.300 That's right.

00:22:10.000 Yeah.

00:22:10.540 Yeah,

00:22:10.960 I love how roughhousing

00:22:12.320 is the answer to everything.

00:22:13.320 I'm joking.

00:22:14.740 It seems like that,

00:22:15.480 though.

00:22:15.560 It's great.

00:22:15.980 So,

00:22:18.240 how soon

00:22:19.440 can you start

00:22:20.580 roughhousing with your kids?

00:22:21.660 I mean,

00:22:21.860 is there guidelines

00:22:22.600 that just sort of like

00:22:23.280 when you think

00:22:23.740 your kid is ready for it

00:22:24.980 or is there a time

00:22:26.800 when you,

00:22:27.020 I mean,

00:22:27.360 definitely don't want

00:22:28.040 to start roughhousing

00:22:28.720 as soon as they're

00:22:29.180 out of the womb.

00:22:30.980 That wouldn't be good.

00:22:32.040 That's a great question.

00:22:32.660 But like,

00:22:33.020 you know,

00:22:33.200 is there any guidelines

00:22:34.120 on when you can start

00:22:35.200 kind of doing

00:22:35.620 a little bit of

00:22:36.200 rough and tumble play?

00:22:38.260 Yeah,

00:22:38.620 it's a great question.

00:22:39.420 What I,

00:22:39.980 I think the best guideline

00:22:41.220 is that usually over,

00:22:43.700 there's some gentle things

00:22:44.980 that you can do

00:22:45.640 even at six months of age.

00:22:48.460 And that just involves

00:22:49.620 gentle nudging,

00:22:50.640 rolling them around

00:22:51.360 the carpet,

00:22:52.880 basically lifting them

00:22:54.440 up in the air.

00:22:56.820 But the key on that

00:22:58.380 is really,

00:22:59.420 it comes down,

00:22:59.940 again,

00:23:00.120 back to the knowledge

00:23:00.980 is what equals safety,

00:23:02.220 not prohibition.

00:23:03.780 It's basically,

00:23:04.780 it's related to their

00:23:05.820 neck development,

00:23:07.440 their muscles,

00:23:07.980 their muscles in their neck.

00:23:09.980 That's,

00:23:10.500 it may seem pretty obvious,

00:23:11.480 but it's basically,

00:23:12.760 you know,

00:23:12.920 once kids can hold

00:23:14.760 their necks upright

00:23:15.820 on their own,

00:23:17.260 that's usually a good sign

00:23:18.380 that you can kind of start

00:23:19.520 being a little more

00:23:21.920 physical with them.

00:23:23.340 When they aren't,

00:23:24.080 when their necks are not,

00:23:25.620 when they're not able

00:23:28.360 to support their necks

00:23:29.160 on their own,

00:23:29.960 that's when you just want

00:23:30.640 to keep the gentle nudging

00:23:31.960 and rolling around

00:23:33.240 on the floor.

00:23:34.720 In general,

00:23:35.320 most,

00:23:35.640 the peak age

00:23:36.360 for roughhousing

00:23:37.000 is ages two to eight.

00:23:40.120 After eight,

00:23:41.560 it becomes more

00:23:42.760 of that physical challenge

00:23:44.000 kind of stuff

00:23:44.680 and less wrestling,

00:23:46.640 pillow fights

00:23:47.300 and that kind of

00:23:48.280 improvisational stuff.

00:23:49.400 It's much more structured.

00:23:51.300 I used to jump off

00:23:52.320 the roof with my dad

00:23:53.420 when I was a teenager

00:23:54.820 and learning how to land

00:23:57.240 safely and doing

00:23:58.100 that kind of stuff.

00:23:59.040 That's awesome.

00:23:59.760 I mean,

00:24:00.060 yeah,

00:24:00.360 if you did that today,

00:24:01.660 like the neighbors

00:24:02.200 would be calling

00:24:02.880 DHS.

00:24:03.560 I thought you'd be in jail.

00:24:06.160 There's a dad

00:24:06.940 jumping off the roof

00:24:07.740 with his three-year-old.

00:24:09.320 That's right.

00:24:11.260 Well,

00:24:11.380 I mean,

00:24:11.520 speaking of,

00:24:12.100 I'm sure there's

00:24:12.980 some dads out there

00:24:14.040 who are listening

00:24:14.540 and maybe roughhousing

00:24:16.660 doesn't come naturally

00:24:17.520 to them.

00:24:18.080 They didn't do

00:24:18.960 when they were a kid

00:24:19.860 or whatever.

00:24:20.680 They're not sure

00:24:21.440 how to go about doing it.

00:24:23.980 Any guidelines

00:24:24.640 on getting started

00:24:25.820 with roughhousing?

00:24:26.940 Yeah,

00:24:27.360 I would say two things.

00:24:28.460 One is

00:24:29.280 fall over.

00:24:32.780 Just start

00:24:33.560 falling over

00:24:34.480 randomly.

00:24:35.880 Kids will love that.

00:24:37.260 They'll jump on you.

00:24:39.160 You don't have to do

00:24:39.620 anything other than

00:24:40.520 just,

00:24:41.060 you know,

00:24:41.720 feign a trip

00:24:43.820 or a fall

00:24:44.500 and then just fall

00:24:45.620 on the ground

00:24:46.120 in agony

00:24:46.700 and the kids will laugh

00:24:47.760 and then they'll jump

00:24:48.980 on you

00:24:49.480 and you can kind of

00:24:50.260 roll around

00:24:50.780 and start there.

00:24:51.600 The other thing

00:24:52.020 though I would say

00:24:52.620 is that

00:24:53.640 follow the giggles. 0.74

00:24:55.880 What I mean by that

00:24:57.340 is that

00:24:58.540 it's

00:24:59.000 the joke

00:25:00.600 or the playtime

00:25:01.760 or the rowdiness

00:25:03.340 will get old

00:25:05.360 for you

00:25:06.140 before,

00:25:07.300 or long before

00:25:08.280 usually

00:25:08.820 it gets old

00:25:09.540 for your kids

00:25:10.940 or child

00:25:12.860 and what that means

00:25:14.280 is that

00:25:14.640 just keep doing it.

00:25:15.720 So fall over again

00:25:16.760 or,

00:25:18.880 you know, 0.69

00:25:19.860 throw them up

00:25:20.860 in the air again

00:25:21.600 or have them

00:25:22.360 climb on your back

00:25:23.120 again

00:25:23.420 and run around

00:25:23.920 the house again.

00:25:25.000 If they're liking it

00:25:26.200 and they're giggling,

00:25:27.740 just keep doing it

00:25:29.820 even if it feels

00:25:30.560 like it's getting old.

00:25:31.920 And you also have

00:25:32.680 in your book

00:25:33.200 like examples,

00:25:34.200 like kind of suggestions

00:25:35.060 for like roughhousing moves,

00:25:36.640 right?

00:25:37.220 Yeah.

00:25:37.880 Yeah.

00:25:38.160 So check that out.

00:25:38.800 Some great stuff.

00:25:39.980 Yeah.

00:25:41.020 Oh, thanks.

00:25:41.660 Yeah.

00:25:41.980 Yeah.

00:25:42.140 The book has a lot

00:25:42.720 of activities.

00:25:43.500 I think there's

00:25:43.820 over a hundred activities

00:25:45.460 and a lot of different

00:25:46.100 kids to think about

00:25:47.840 and to have fun with.

00:25:49.420 Yeah.

00:25:49.920 My son's favorite

00:25:51.080 is Baby Suplex.

00:25:53.700 I just basically

00:25:54.500 like just take him

00:25:55.160 kind of throw him

00:25:56.660 over my,

00:25:56.940 not throw him

00:25:57.360 over my shoulder.

00:25:57.980 I don't know.

00:25:58.160 It's basically

00:25:58.540 like a WrestleMania

00:25:59.220 Suplex.

00:26:01.080 I love it.

00:26:02.220 He just like wants

00:26:02.780 to wrestle

00:26:03.240 and then the other ones

00:26:05.280 where I just,

00:26:05.880 he calls it

00:26:06.360 Scoop-A-Bed 0.98

00:26:07.120 and we just like,

00:26:07.980 it's like when we

00:26:08.580 throw him on our bed

00:26:09.400 and that's that.

00:26:11.460 I mean,

00:26:11.660 it's really simple stuff.

00:26:12.880 We call it,

00:26:13.140 yeah.

00:26:13.620 It's really,

00:26:14.260 yeah,

00:26:14.480 we call it big,

00:26:15.200 the same move,

00:26:16.500 we call it Big Drop

00:26:17.880 in my house.

00:26:18.540 Big Drop.

00:26:19.320 Basically lift kids up

00:26:20.600 and so,

00:26:21.020 you know,

00:26:21.200 they're kind of in,

00:26:22.420 they're lying on their back

00:26:23.360 and lift them up

00:26:24.020 and then just drop them

00:26:24.840 right in the bed.

00:26:28.220 I love it.

00:26:29.600 All right,

00:26:29.800 well,

00:26:30.160 Anthony,

00:26:30.520 where can people find out

00:26:31.500 more about your work

00:26:32.220 on roughhousing?

00:26:33.480 Yeah,

00:26:33.820 so the,

00:26:34.320 there's a website,

00:26:36.100 theartofruffhousing.com,

00:26:37.420 although I would say

00:26:38.080 that the Facebook page

00:26:39.380 for the,

00:26:39.880 which is also

00:26:40.440 the Art of Roughhousing

00:26:41.200 is updated a little bit

00:26:42.240 more regularly

00:26:43.000 than the website

00:26:44.640 and then my Twitter handle

00:26:46.080 is Rowdy Dad

00:26:46.980 and anybody can contact

00:26:48.960 me directly to Twitter.

00:26:50.700 Fantastic.

00:26:51.580 Well,

00:26:51.820 Anthony DeBenedet,

00:26:52.800 thank you so much

00:26:53.540 for your time.

00:26:54.080 It's been a pleasure.

00:26:55.320 Oh,

00:26:55.560 Brett,

00:26:55.800 thanks for having me

00:26:56.540 and I love your work

00:26:58.200 and keep it up.

00:26:59.200 Thank you very much.

00:27:01.080 Our guest today

00:27:01.740 was Dr. Anthony DeBenedet.

00:27:03.160 His book is

00:27:03.880 The Art of Roughhousing

00:27:05.560 and you can find that

00:27:06.500 on Amazon.com.

00:27:08.520 You can find out

00:27:09.160 more information

00:27:09.780 about his book

00:27:10.400 at theartofruffhousing.com.

00:27:12.700 Well,

00:27:15.020 that wraps up

00:27:15.700 another edition

00:27:16.360 of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:27:18.360 For more manly tips

00:27:19.240 and advice,

00:27:19.780 make sure to check out

00:27:20.500 the Art of Manliness website

00:27:21.600 at artofmanliness.com

00:27:23.100 and if you enjoy the podcast,

00:27:25.160 we'd really appreciate it

00:27:26.640 if you would go

00:27:27.680 onto iTunes

00:27:28.980 or to Stitcher

00:27:29.760 or whatever you use

00:27:30.440 to listen to the podcast

00:27:31.680 and give us a review.

00:27:33.200 That will help us

00:27:34.280 and help spread the word

00:27:35.700 about the podcast.

00:27:37.040 So until next time,

00:27:37.800 this is Brett McKay

00:27:38.500 telling you to stay manly.

00:27:40.540 We'll see you next time.

The Art of Manliness - May 02, 2014

#66： The Art of Roughhousing with Anthony T. DeBenedet

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