The Art of Manliness - #662： The Art and Science of Creating Good Luck

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.080 When you think about serendipity, you likely think of strokes of good luck that happen

00:00:14.060 entirely by chance. But my guest today says that we can play a role in harnessing more

00:00:17.900 lightning strikes of fortune and create the conditions to both experience a greater number

00:00:21.380 of meaningful accidents and make accidents more meaningful. His name is Christian Bush.

00:00:25.360 He's a professor of economics and entrepreneurship and the author of The Serendipity Mindset,

00:00:28.920 the art and science of creating good luck. We begin our conversation with what serendipity is,

00:00:32.860 how it's different from simple chance, and is instead a kind of smart luck which requires

00:00:36.580 acting on the unexpected and connecting the dots of seemingly random events. We then discuss the

00:00:40.820 three types of serendipity, the obstacles to experiencing this force, and how the amount

00:00:44.380 of serendipity you experience depends on how you frame the world. Christian explains how to develop

00:00:48.060 a serendipity-seeking mindset, including how to intentionally see triggers for it, and we

00:00:52.040 end our conversation with how organizations and not just individuals can take steps to strategically

00:00:56.360 leverage the power of serendipity. After the show's over, check out our show notes at

00:00:59.980 aom.is slash serendipity.

00:01:06.120 All right, Christian Bush, welcome to the show.

00:01:12.520 Thank you so much for having me.

00:01:14.040 So you are the author of a new book called The Serendipity Mindset,

00:01:18.340 The Art and Science of Creating Good Luck. Let's talk about your background, what led up to the

00:01:22.300 writing of this book. What started you down the path exploring luck and chance and serendipity?

00:01:29.340 It's actually been a quite serendipitous journey. I mean, it really started when I had an accident

00:01:34.320 when I was 18. You know, I used to be this kind of reckless teenager who, you know, had to repeat

00:01:39.340 a year in high school. I was kicked out of school. So I was this kind of troubled kid in a way, and I

00:01:44.140 transferred this kind of lifestyle into my driving style. And then one day I wasn't that lucky anymore,

00:01:49.300 and I crashed into four parked cars. And I won't forget the policeman who came to the scene and he

00:01:53.640 was like, Oh my God, he's still alive. And so this idea that I was supposed to be dead,

00:01:57.620 that stuck with me and kind of it put me on this intense search for meaning. And, you know,

00:02:01.400 I started reading this wonderful book of Viktor Frankl, The Man's Search for Meaning,

00:02:05.540 which is all about finding meaning in the most dire of situations. And so it kind of

00:02:09.920 inspired me to try to figure out what gives me meaning, what could I do in the world that somehow

00:02:14.820 is meaningful. And so I started out as a community builder, and then entrepreneur,

00:02:18.980 social entrepreneur, and then went to do research. And one of the things that I just found extremely

00:02:23.300 fascinating was that the most purpose-driven, inspiring, successful people around me, they

00:02:28.300 seem to have something in common, which was that they intuitively cultivate serendipity.

00:02:32.420 They intuitively see something in the unexpected and then turn that into positive outcomes.

00:02:37.000 And so I got really excited about this and it became kind of a life philosophy and a daily

00:02:40.860 practice. But, you know, I first wanted to write a book about purpose and impact and

00:02:45.480 related questions. And I remember pitching that to friends and saying, hey, this is my new book.

00:02:50.040 And they were like, yeah, but you know what, do you have other things, other ideas as well?

00:02:53.920 And so I was like, all right, well, actually, the thing I'm really excited about is serendipity.

00:02:57.020 And so that kind of like is how the book came about. And now it's really kind of this

00:03:00.960 bringing the last 15 years of my life into this, but also a lot of kind of the research and

00:03:05.260 just being fascinated by this kind of life force that serendipity can be.

00:03:09.240 Well, let's start off with definitions. What is serendipity and how is it different from

00:03:12.960 chance or randomness?

00:03:15.500 Yeah, you know, I mean, usually when we think about luck, we think about this kind of blind 0.70

00:03:19.020 luck, right? So being born into a loving family or things that we can't influence that much.

00:03:23.700 But actually serendipity is all about this kind of active smart luck. So, you know,

00:03:27.360 this unexpected good luck that comes from our own actions. And so, you know, think about this

00:03:31.660 situation, you're in a coffee shop. And if you have erratic hand movements, as I do,

00:03:36.320 which makes me nervous also with a microphone here, by the way, that I might flash that over

00:03:40.180 at some point. But essentially, if you're kind of like a slightly, you know, hand gesture type

00:03:44.980 person as I am, you might spill your coffee over the person next to you. And imagine that situation

00:03:49.980 where you sense that kind of connection, right? You sense there might be something there.

00:03:53.940 And now you have two options, right? Option one is that you kind of say,

00:03:56.780 Oh my God, I'm so sorry. Here's a napkin. And then you walk outside afterwards and you're like,

00:04:00.740 Ah, what could have been? And option number two is like, well, hey, I'm so sorry.

00:04:04.660 I was so immersed in X, Y, Z idea. And, you know, you start talking with the person and

00:04:08.960 it might become the love of your life. It might become a co-founder. And so really this kind of

00:04:13.320 idea that, yes, there's something unexpected happening here, but you acted on it and you

00:04:17.800 did something with it. You created your own smart luck.

00:04:21.260 So let's talk about what makes a serendipitous thing serendipitous. Like what are the factors?

00:04:26.640 Like what makes something, you know, what are you looking for when you're, when the scientists,

00:04:30.380 in your research, like what makes something serendipitous as opposed to, you know, just

00:04:34.860 based on pure skill or just pure chance?

00:04:38.840 Yeah. It's really this idea of saying, what is something that unexpectedly happens, but

00:04:44.760 where we then see some kind of action. And I think that's, you know, coming a lot to that

00:04:48.600 question of what is, what could have happened? Like this situation I just mentioned with,

00:04:53.040 you know, when you spill that coffee, like we might all have that same situation, but then

00:04:57.280 the question is, how do we act on it? What do we do with it? And if you think about how

00:05:00.920 serendipity unfolds and, you know, examples of Viagra, for example, where, you know, you

00:05:05.580 have people who researched a completely different medication and China, essentially, they gave

00:05:10.780 people medication and they were like, okay, great. Like, it seems like people have some

00:05:15.680 kind of movement in their trousers. I mean, male participants. And so, you know, now a lot

00:05:20.280 of times what we might do is we might be embarrassed or we might see it as a failure that's like

00:05:24.520 our medication doesn't really work or has these kind of side effects, but they did the

00:05:28.600 opposite. They said, okay, that's unexpected, but you know what, maybe there is something

00:05:32.240 in there that could help a lot of people. And so that's how Viagra evolved as a kind of

00:05:36.060 like in a way out of a quote unquote experiment that didn't work or that kind of like had a

00:05:40.200 weird side effect. And so that's really what I'm most fascinated by when looking at serendipity

00:05:44.360 that a lot of times it's really kind of trying to trace how did something positive

00:05:49.220 that's positively unexpected emerged? What was behind that? What was the process behind

00:05:54.160 that? So was it really just this incidence or was it really something where someone had

00:05:58.620 to see something in the unexpected and then connect the dots? And that's really my fascination

00:06:03.260 for us in terms of saying, what is that kind of connecting the dot piece that needs to be

00:06:07.660 there?

00:06:08.500 Well, so in the book, you talk about there's like a trigger with an event. So in the Viagra

00:06:13.340 example, like the trigger is like people started noticing dudes were getting erections after

00:06:17.720 taking this heart medication and it was unanticipated. But then you also talk about this idea

00:06:21.560 of bisociation. Like what is that?

00:06:23.900 Yeah. So that's really about this idea of like, that we have to connect that with something,

00:06:27.180 right? So if we, let's, you know, this example of seeing that there's some kind of erection

00:06:31.380 happening or the example that there's a coffee that spilled or, you know, other examples where

00:06:37.640 there's something unexpected happenings, that's the trigger. That's the initial thing that happens.

00:06:42.080 But then it's up to us to connect that to something, to some kind of problem. You know,

00:06:46.940 in the case of Viagra, it was the problem that a lot of people in the world have that bigger

00:06:51.560 not having erections. In the case of the coffee shop, it might be, you know, it might be nice to

00:06:55.820 find a love partner. So something that somehow makes those dots meaningful. And so that's what

00:06:59.920 serendipity is a lot about. This kind of idea that we make accidents meaningful, but also,

00:07:04.900 and I think that's something that we'll probably talk about later, we can also create more meaningful

00:07:08.800 accidents, but it's really about saying we need to somehow imbue meaning in that kind of trigger

00:07:12.980 that happens.

00:07:14.600 Are there different types of serendipity?

00:07:15.940 Yeah. So there's three kind of broader types. One is really this kind of Archimedes serendipity

00:07:21.160 when you're looking for something specific already to solve a problem, right? So maybe you want to

00:07:26.320 find a specific job or something where in a way you're looking for something already, but then there's

00:07:31.220 something unexpected, like some unexpected kind of way of getting into the company by another friend

00:07:36.660 that you didn't even know worked there. Or, you know, in this example of Archimedes, the reason why it's

00:07:41.100 why it's called that, where he was essentially, you know, trying to figure out for the king,

00:07:45.620 if the crown that the king got was really, you know, full of gold, or was there some kind of fake

00:07:50.380 crown going on there? And so he didn't find a solution to that problem, how to know that it is

00:07:55.800 gold. And so he would go to the baths and he would kind of go into the baths. And then he realized,

00:08:00.260 oh, wow, when I go here into the water, the water is essentially, the water levels rise as people

00:08:05.960 lower themselves into it. And they rise differently depending on, you know, how much weight they have.

00:08:10.680 And how big they are. And so essentially, he realized that if he could like measure or see

00:08:16.980 how much the kind of gold replaced, if you would have a real gold crown, and then this crown, you

00:08:22.600 could see if that would be really gold. And so in a way, he found an unexpected way to figure out what

00:08:28.000 that was about, which is very different from the kind of post-it's node serendipity, which is more

00:08:33.580 the kind of serendipity where, you know, you're looking for something completely different, you know,

00:08:37.920 you're looking for maybe a job in a particular industry. And then you come across something,

00:08:42.880 you know, in another industry, you're like, oh my God, this could work too. Or in the case of

00:08:46.760 post-it serendipity, it's really about this idea that, you know, this guy, Mr. Spencer, he was

00:08:52.340 figuring out like how he could develop a stronger glue. And then somehow he realized that actually,

00:08:58.220 the only thing he created was like a sticky substance. And so he realized, hey, you know what,

00:09:02.740 maybe I can use that as a post-it kind of like weak glue in a way. And so again, he figured out a way

00:09:09.480 to do something useful, but not necessarily the one he was looking for. And then the third one,

00:09:14.000 which is my absolute favorite, because it's really about this idea that life, any moment,

00:09:18.160 any second can bring you a complete change in everything that could be for the better,

00:09:23.060 is really that kind of thunderbolt serendipity. So this kind of being struck by something out of

00:09:27.840 nowhere, like in this kind of example where, you know, you're not even looking for falling in love

00:09:33.100 and in the street, you somehow, you know, unexpectedly meet someone or those kinds of

00:09:37.040 things which unexpectedly happen and without us looking for it. And so, but all these kind of

00:09:41.960 examples have in common that it's always this kind of unexpected thing. There's always something we

00:09:46.240 have to do something with it, but also we need the tenacity and really kind of this grit to do that.

00:09:51.020 And I think I've seen in my own life, a lot of times I've been held back by, you know,

00:09:54.940 the kind of inner imposter that comes out sometimes, the syndrome or other things where

00:09:59.220 it's really kind of, we need to stick with it. Otherwise it won't happen.

00:10:03.840 So, okay. Serendipity is you notice a trigger and you are able to make that connection,

00:10:08.220 connect dots on it in an unexpected way. And so it requires developing what you look at the title

00:10:12.760 of your book, a serendipity mindset, a mindset where you start noticing those things, but you spend

00:10:17.220 the one chapter of the book exploring the obstacles that we have in noticing serendipity in our

00:10:22.880 lives. What are the big obstacles that prevent people from noticing those triggers and making

00:10:28.080 those connections? Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, a lot of those actually I've seen in myself as well

00:10:32.780 and a lot in the people around me where, you know, one is really around this idea that we

00:10:37.920 underestimate the unexpected. I mean, I remember this friend in school who would always be like,

00:10:42.480 oh, like it's very probable that the improbable happens. And I always thought, oh, wow, that sounds

00:10:46.980 very mysterious, but I have no idea what you're talking about. And then what I realized is, you know,

00:10:50.840 if you think about our conversation now, right? I mean, it's very unlikely that my microphone drops

00:10:55.940 down. It's very unlikely that the computer kind of, you know, gets off like and stops working and

00:11:01.500 all these different types of things. But if you add up all these different things, it actually

00:11:05.360 becomes relatively likely that some kind of glitch might happen or something. And so we tend to have

00:11:10.240 this illusion of control that we can control a lot of things. And, you know, we get trained in

00:11:14.820 school and business school and high school. I mean, I grew up in Germany. We get trained that we can

00:11:19.640 plan things out. But then actually the unexpected is usually what really shapes our lives. And so

00:11:23.940 it's really this kind of idea that we have this illusion of control, but the unexpected happens

00:11:27.600 all the time. And a lot of times we don't necessarily see it or we don't necessarily do

00:11:31.680 something with it. And so it's really, we tend to underestimate that, which is a pity because

00:11:35.600 in a way we, once we start opening our eyes, like, you know, in some companies, for example,

00:11:40.240 I work with, they start weekly meetings with a question of what surprised you last week? And

00:11:44.520 once you ask these simple questions, people get much more open to, oh, there was something in

00:11:49.240 the data about our marketing strategy that didn't work. Hey, great. Like we can directly do something

00:11:53.400 about this now versus waiting for another couple of months. And so it's really this kind of becoming

00:11:57.480 more realistic about how unexpected a lot of things will actually be. Another one, which is actually my

00:12:02.940 favorite is around this idea that we tend to post-rationalize. So essentially, we tend to look back at

00:12:09.980 things and we then spin them as if they were very predictable. So, you know, picture the kind of

00:12:16.480 manager who, you know, speaks to the committee meeting and says, oh yeah, we had this and this

00:12:21.480 plan and then we wanted to reach this and this is how we reached it. So like we tell it as a step-by-step

00:12:26.640 story, but usually it's like a bit more of a squibble, right? Where like it's some unexpected kind of

00:12:32.000 thing usually emerged, but we still tell it as if it was step-by-step. And so I guess we've all done

00:12:36.800 that now with our CVs where we might say, oh yeah, I always wanted to go into this industry and

00:12:41.300 then this. Yeah, but maybe you just ran into someone at a conference and they gave you a new

00:12:45.020 job. And so it's really this kind of idea that a lot of times we airbrush serendipity out of our

00:12:49.200 lives because we assume that life might be more kind of planal, but also because we feel that sense

00:12:55.420 we have to portray more of control than we actually had. And I think that's kind of quite related also

00:13:01.260 to the other ones, which, I mean, maybe a third one is really around this kind of idea that

00:13:05.220 we tend to have a bit of functional fixedness. So this kind of hem and nail problem where

00:13:09.140 as soon as you have a hammer and you want to get a nail into the wall, you will always look for

00:13:16.120 where's the hammer so that I can get into the wall. So you wouldn't necessarily look for other

00:13:21.180 objects that could do the same. And so that's the same for when we have one way of how we solve a

00:13:26.220 problem usually in business or in our personal life. And we then kind of use the same model,

00:13:31.200 the same approach, even though there might be much more effective ones. And so it closes

00:13:35.180 us down to serendipity because we assume we have it figured out already.

00:13:39.400 Right. Yeah. Like the functional fixedness, like that's how, that's one way goals and plans can

00:13:44.000 get in the way of serendipity. Are you just like, well, this is the goal. This is what we're supposed

00:13:48.180 to do. This is the plan. And if we deviate from the plan, that's a problem. But like, maybe there's

00:13:51.920 deviations that could be better than your original plan.

00:13:55.700 Absolutely. And you know, that's something we did a study recently with people who lead larger

00:14:00.000 companies. And what was fascinating was, I mean, they are extremely inspirational,

00:14:03.800 purpose-driven leaders. And one thing they all had in common is that they have a pretty good

00:14:09.060 sense of directions or certain North Star or sense of purpose or a curiosity, just something that guides

00:14:15.460 them. But also then they have this kind of like humility or this kind of this idea that, hey,

00:14:21.260 the unexpected will happen. And that's okay. You know, one thing I really love about your podcast is

00:14:26.440 kind of really thinking about like, you know, I think we've been instilled, especially as men,

00:14:31.020 like for a very long time when you grow up, right, that you have to have this kind of very strong

00:14:35.120 sense of exactly where you're going, what you're doing. And, you know, this kind of like type of

00:14:39.260 masculinity that can lead us in the wrong direction because it doesn't allow for this humility sometimes

00:14:44.760 where we would just say, hey, look, you know what, like maybe, you know, there is a certain sense

00:14:49.260 of direction, but also we need to be able to see that we can't plan everything out. And so I think

00:14:54.240 that's where it kind of gets, gets really into the kind of idea that if we have that sense of

00:14:59.340 direction, a lot of times it's really also about that humility of, of being open to the unexpected.

00:15:04.940 All right. So it sounds like to prevent goals from, you know, getting that functional fixedness,

00:15:08.540 you just, instead of being completely goal-driven, like have a general vision, a big picture view of

00:15:13.140 where you want to go and then be open to new ways of achieving that, that vision.

00:15:18.040 Exactly.

00:15:18.400 Okay. Well, and another thing that you highlight a lot of research about how people can make those

00:15:25.620 connections more of like, of serendipitous connections is their frame of mind, like their,

00:15:30.800 their, how they frame the world. And there's a lot of research coming out of this where there's like

00:15:34.860 research that shows that lucky people see the world different than from unlucky people. Can you walk

00:15:41.240 us through some of that research?

00:15:42.160 Yeah. It's actually quite fascinating because it's really a lot about this question of how do you,

00:15:47.800 by the way, me afraid the world already kind of predefine a lot of what will happen to you. And so

00:15:52.520 one of these experiments is, you know, a colleague took one person who self-identifies as very lucky.

00:15:58.000 So someone who says, good things always happen to me. And then someone who says, bad things always

00:16:03.160 happen to me. I'm always an accident. So someone who kind of considers themselves to be very unlucky.

00:16:07.980 And so he tells them, walk down the street, go into a coffee shop, order a coffee and sit down.

00:16:14.360 And then we'll have our interview. What he doesn't tell them is that there's hidden cameras across

00:16:18.980 the street and in the coffee shop. There's a five pound note in front of the door and inside the

00:16:23.720 coffee shop, it's only actors. And then there's this kind of super successful businessman who sits

00:16:28.500 at the table who can make big dreams happen. And so now the lucky person, the person who self-identifies

00:16:34.340 is lucky, walks down the street, sees the five pound note, picks it up, goes inside,

00:16:40.240 orders the coffee, sits next to the businessman. That's the table that's closest or the seat that's

00:16:44.040 closest. Has a wonderful conversation. They exchange business cards and that's that. The unlucky person

00:16:49.680 walks down the street, steps over the five pound note, so it doesn't see it, goes inside, orders

00:16:54.980 the coffee, sits next to the businessman. That's the empty seat that's kind of closest. Ignores the

00:16:59.920 businessman and that's that. Now, at the end of the day, they ask both people,

00:17:02.940 so how was your day today? And so the lucky person says, well, it was amazing. I found money

00:17:09.620 in the street. I made a new friend and we don't know if an opportunity came out of it, but it

00:17:14.360 wouldn't be unexpected. And the unlucky person just says, well, nothing really happened. And so it's

00:17:18.820 really kind of that idea that at the end of the day, they frame the occasions already in a way where

00:17:23.840 they were more open to that kind of unexpected luck to happen. All right. So what happens though,

00:17:28.920 if like, okay, this comes a lot down to like personality traits. There's like this idea of

00:17:32.680 neuroticism, like neurotic people tend to be not as open to new things as say more people with more,

00:17:39.860 more open personality. Like what do you, how do you manage that? What if you, what if you tend to be

00:17:45.140 like a Larry David type and everything's just terrible all the time? Can you proactively change your,

00:17:52.140 the way you frame the world so that you can have more of those serendipitous occasions?

00:17:55.780 It's interesting because, you know, as a closet introvert, you know, I have these spikes of

00:18:00.340 extroversion, but actually I'm quite introverted. And so I've always kind of like tried to figure

00:18:04.780 out ways of how can you cultivate serendipity without having to always put yourself out there

00:18:09.220 or without having to always be in a really good mood or without always having to be on and so on.

00:18:14.580 And I feel like there's a lot of aspects to exactly your point where things such as extroversion and

00:18:19.800 quote unquote, good energy and putting yourself out there can benefit, right? In terms of like,

00:18:24.260 you meet more people potentially, you keep in touch with more people, people tend to reach

00:18:28.900 out more. So there's all these things that potentially facilitate serendipity. But at the

00:18:32.880 same time, there's a huge role for potential, like for people who are more introverted or more kind of

00:18:38.800 close in the sense that serendipity so often comes from silent sources, from calm sources, like reading

00:18:44.440 a book and then connecting the dots to something maybe we saw on television and then coming up with

00:18:48.640 something or, you know, kind of reflecting on a conversation that we had at work two weeks ago,

00:18:54.280 and now giving ourselves the reflective space to do that. And so there's a role for kind of

00:18:59.240 introverts to have that as well. And at the same time, introverts, a lot of times or more introverted

00:19:04.140 people also are a great complement in teams for extroverts, because extroverts tend to be out there,

00:19:09.220 out there, out there. And then they need this kind of reflective space of introversion to really kind

00:19:13.460 of help them ground it and make sense out of it and filter it. And so it's interesting also that

00:19:18.580 I feel a lot of times as an introvert, like one thing, for example, that I've tried to do more and

00:19:23.460 more is when I go to an event or so that I try to talk with the host and like the key people

00:19:27.960 at the beginning and kind of like get them excited about an idea so that they in a way can spread

00:19:33.220 the idea. So it's almost like you're trying to embed it with the people who can then be extrovert

00:19:37.960 for you, even if you don't feel like doing it yourself.

00:19:40.220 So the big part of serendipity mindset is just being more open to, or just being open to new

00:19:46.380 possibilities. Like don't just be so narrowly focused. Speaking of like, you're describing

00:19:51.380 that one research, that one experiment with the coffee shop, remind me another experiment you

00:19:55.560 highlighted. And it goes back to that idea of having a narrow focus and like goals or functional

00:20:00.040 fixedness was the newspaper one where they did an experiment where they told people, we want you to

00:20:05.620 find like certain words in this newspaper article. And then the article, and if you do, you'll win

00:20:11.780 X amount of money or, but, or in the newspaper, there was like a point where it said, stop reading,

00:20:16.560 you'll win $500. And like, I know I'm kind of like, I'm botching the details, but the idea of this

00:20:22.200 experiment showed that you get so focused on a goal or an idea that you, you miss other opportunities

00:20:27.880 that are, might even be better.

00:20:28.960 Exactly. And that's something I feel we might actually do quite often because we, in a way,

00:20:35.300 assume that there is that kind of, you know, idea of, you know, we have to have a specified

00:20:39.660 kind of way of how we go about things. And I'll then so focused on it that we might miss things.

00:20:44.200 And so, I mean, you know, that happens in the, in the company context all the time, right? Where

00:20:48.660 imagine you're the kind of manager and you're saying, we need to cut costs. And then you send

00:20:53.640 people out to cut costs, but because you said cut costs rather than let's increase profits,

00:20:58.840 which could also be about selling more things, or it could be about many more things. Like you're,

00:21:03.660 you're kind of making people much more like narrow, not necessarily narrow minded, but narrow looking

00:21:09.160 for where there could be potential solutions. And I feel a lot of times we do that because we,

00:21:14.240 we want to decrease kind of uncertainty. We want to decrease potential risk and everything else.

00:21:19.220 But what we're really doing is we're, we're shutting ourselves down to serendipity a lot of times.

00:21:23.480 And it's really something, it comes back also to, I think, what we talked about earlier around this

00:21:28.060 idea of how do we have that kind of sense of where we're going, but are also open for these kind of

00:21:32.960 unexpected things, such as that literally in the newspaper, it might tell us that we already found

00:21:37.860 the solution. And, and, and, and that's really a lot around this idea of having a certain sense of

00:21:43.120 where we're going, but at the same time being open to, Hey, it might arise very unexpectedly.

00:21:48.740 We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:21:50.780 And now back to the show.

00:21:54.600 All right. So having more serendipity in your life requires you to be more open, more,

00:21:58.740 having a more open, more curious mindset and being able to notice potential triggers for serendipity.

00:22:04.520 But you also argue in the book that we can proactively seed triggers,

00:22:08.380 potential serendipity triggers in our lives. What does that look like? What are some ways that

00:22:12.000 people can do that? 0.58

00:22:13.200 Yeah, that's one of my favorites because it's all about this question of how do we create

00:22:16.780 meaningful accidents in a way? How do we create positive coincidences? And so, which is of course,

00:22:22.300 extremely counterintuitive. And so it's something where the setting or the casting hooks is all about

00:22:27.580 this question of how do we essentially let other people connect the dots for us? So there's a

00:22:32.600 wonderful entrepreneur in London, Ollie Barrett. And if you would ask him this kind of dreaded question,

00:22:37.660 what do you do, right? The question that comes at every conference at every, when you meet a new

00:22:41.820 person, he would not just answer, oh, I'm a technology entrepreneur or something. He would

00:22:46.280 say, well, I'm a technology entrepreneur, recently started reading into the philosophy of science,

00:22:51.400 but what I'm really excited about is playing the piano. And so what he's doing here is he's giving

00:22:56.120 you three potential hooks where you could be like, oh my God, such a coincidence. I started playing the

00:23:01.320 piano recently. Let's host a martinet together. Or my God, such a coincidence. My brother is a professor

00:23:05.960 for the philosophy of science. I should put you in touch. The point here is that the more we can see

00:23:10.440 these different dots into conversations about our own interests or interests of others, the more we

00:23:16.380 can then essentially have other people pick up on this and say, oh my God, such a coincidence,

00:23:19.840 this and this and this and this. That's also similar to how we can, whenever someone tells us about them,

00:23:25.280 in our head, we can always go, no, in terms of, oh, how does this connect to the people I've met

00:23:29.480 recently? How does this connect to what I'm really excited about? And what's really interesting there is

00:23:33.500 that then in every conversation, even with people we know really well already, serendipity can happen

00:23:39.040 all the time. And so it's really kind of setting these hooks consciously and being part of facilitating

00:23:43.780 that. And conversely, and the other way around, we can also ask questions differently. I mean,

00:23:48.580 we can, instead of asking, what do you do? We can ask things like, what's on your mind? Or what

00:23:53.280 inspired you about X, Y, Z situation? Or things that really kind of open up this opportunity space to

00:23:58.180 say, let's get ourselves out of this kind of routine autopilot of just kind of saying the same things

00:24:03.640 to like, what is something that could really open this space? And that's similar to really kind of

00:24:09.220 setting serendipity bombs, because it's a lot about this question of how do I, you know, put

00:24:14.560 minds out there that could go off. And so, you know, can go everything. If you're a job seeker,

00:24:19.800 so some of my students, for example, you know, they had the whole career mapped out, they had their jobs

00:24:24.420 mapped out, the internships, and everything got canceled due to COVID. And then the strategy that we used

00:24:30.800 essentially was to say, hey, look, like, identify the top 20 people that you find extremely inspiring

00:24:35.660 in your industry, but also in other industries. And, you know, go on LinkedIn, look, if you have a

00:24:41.140 like contact in common, so second degree contacts, you can send an email, so you can contact them

00:24:45.640 directly, and then send them super friendly mails along the lines of super inspired by you,

00:24:50.980 a young person who's like, big dreams, X, Y, Z. And, you know, usually what happens is,

00:24:56.180 it's a numbers game out of 20 people, like three people write back and say, oh, my God,

00:24:59.660 such a coincidence. We are currently exploring this, we don't have a job. But like, if you want

00:25:03.480 to do X, Y, Z, we can we can get back to you. And the point is, like, these are the people who then

00:25:07.820 in half a year, have those people on the radar to get back to them and say, now it fits. And so it's

00:25:12.280 really like, like putting ourselves on the radar, and like laying a couple of these minds out there

00:25:17.080 so that they could go off at any point in time. We are using LinkedIn. That's an example of using

00:25:21.560 technology to leverage technology to, to seed a lot of triggers. Exactly. And, you know,

00:25:27.040 I feel especially in COVID times where so many of us, I mean, I'm here in New York,

00:25:31.360 and I've been literally kind of in this flat for the last half year, right? And when I think about

00:25:37.000 the water cooler moments that have been taken away, you know, all these kind of moments where

00:25:40.960 you could just run into someone at work or in a coffee shop or else. And so the question of how can

00:25:46.040 we do that virtually? And so I think technology has been really interesting because you, you can do so

00:25:51.680 many things, right? Like, I mean, I've seen some companies, for example, start doing online coffee

00:25:56.500 trials, random coffee trials, where people within the organization give you one or two kind of ideas

00:26:02.420 of when they're free this week. So, hey, I have an hour between 12 and 1. And then platforms like

00:26:06.880 Slack or other kind of platforms can help randomly match people and then have them like go for a coffee

00:26:13.060 for an hour, give them an inspiring prompt. And so especially in large organizations where you

00:26:17.680 always had this, when you're a young person particularly, like you always hope that you might run into

00:26:21.580 the right person, right? And so it's kind of, that like sets you up to a lot of like random kind of

00:26:26.820 bumping into the kind of person who could really change your life, change your career. And so we can

00:26:31.280 really accelerate that online as well by facilitating some of these kind of random encounters.

00:26:37.540 One thing I can see can start happening once you start developing the serendipity mindset,

00:26:41.700 where you're more open to potential serendipity triggers, is you might start noticing too many

00:26:47.400 triggers. And you might start making too many connections. And it's going to be hard to figure

00:26:51.540 out like, should I take this? Should I take action on this connection? It's like, how do you manage

00:26:57.100 serendipity overload?

00:26:59.840 That's such a great question, because it's something I mean, I've struggled with a lot in

00:27:03.700 terms of how do you essentially not get distracted? I mean, in this case, for example, when you write a

00:27:08.620 book, right? How do you make sure that when you have approximately figured out what you want to write

00:27:12.760 about, that you don't get pulled away by other really interesting things that could like come up

00:27:17.260 somewhere and, and things like that. And so one of the things I found extremely useful is to kind of

00:27:22.320 have this North Star or this idea of, okay, what is the kind of key focus area at this point, and every

00:27:27.400 serendipity that relates to it, great, and everything else like it gets on the parking lot. So, you know,

00:27:33.020 starting like a serendipity journal where it's all about saying, this is kind of like, you know,

00:27:37.320 the current North Star or the current kind of story of self or just this idea of writing down,

00:27:42.740 what is it at the moment that is really meaningful to me, and then saying, okay, hey, I can also write

00:27:48.540 down the other areas that pop up and ideas that pop up, but they get stored here for later. So they're not

00:27:53.520 being discarded, but they're just kind of like put on the parking lot. But also really this idea then of kind of

00:27:58.600 having people around to help filter bouncing ideas off with them. And in companies, it's kind of things like

00:28:04.220 brain trusts, informal kind of, you know, three, four people who just kind of informally evaluate ideas

00:28:09.020 from time to time. So I feel this kind of filter being extremely important so to not get distracted

00:28:14.280 and to really kind of follow the North Star that's there at a certain point. And if we don't have a

00:28:19.980 North Star, then maybe this kind of idea of, oh, is there like an underlying interest at the moment

00:28:24.320 or a curiosity that these things should somehow relate to so that it makes sense. And that also

00:28:29.340 makes it easier than actually to meaningfully connect dots because we know what to connect them to.

00:28:33.240 I want to backtrack this idea of like seeding triggers. So I just had an idea, like one thing

00:28:39.480 that I've, we were talking about what you can do with when you're with people, like you can say,

00:28:42.240 well, I'm interested. My name is Brett. I'm, I got a podcast. I'm interested in this. And then you

00:28:47.060 can, maybe that's a potential hook, but I was thinking like what you can do to seed triggers for

00:28:53.100 like ideas without people. And one thing that I like doing is to get new ideas for things is go to

00:29:01.300 used bookstores. What I like used bookstores for is because there's no algorithm there, right?

00:29:07.140 Because when you go to Amazon, Amazon knows your shopping history, what interests you. And so you

00:29:10.820 can end up kind of seeing the same stuff over and over again. There's a great used bookstore here in

00:29:15.540 Tulsa, Gardner's Bookstore. Every time I go in there, I find three or four books that I never would

00:29:21.580 have saw on Amazon or at Barnes and Noble because they're, you know, they haven't been in print for a

00:29:26.660 while or they just wouldn't be on the radar. And a few of them actually turn into podcast guests that

00:29:31.020 wouldn't even been on the radar if I hadn't gone in there. And for some reason, whenever I go into

00:29:34.280 a used bookstore, like my, I'm just more open to potential books to pop out at me that I otherwise

00:29:40.140 would have probably just shut off in any other situation. That's such a cool example because

00:29:44.580 that's exactly where in a way to, to your point earlier also like how then every situation can become

00:29:51.520 a potential trigger for it, for serendipity, because we, we give ourselves the space for it, but also we

00:29:56.880 in a way see that it can be in those kinds of calm, silent sources that in a way are in books that are

00:30:03.100 in even maybe the conversation then with a bookseller or, you know, in these kinds of situations.

00:30:08.160 But even without that conversation, to your point, like the kind of real,

00:30:11.020 more silent source type approach being, being very effective. And it seems like, I mean,

00:30:15.380 that that is something, it sounds like you've been using that quite a bit or?

00:30:19.060 Yeah. Like I go, like I try to go like once a year, because that seems about the time when like

00:30:22.480 they got new stock in. And so we'll go there and we'll just, you know, books are cheap and we'll

00:30:28.000 just find lots of stuff. I find like a lot of weird stuff too. That's like even like old magazines

00:30:32.540 that might have an idea for, you know, maybe an article that I'll write sometime later.

00:30:37.280 Another useful place where you can go for like sort of a silent serendipity, like for me,

00:30:41.380 it's like serendipity bomb is like a antique stores or flea markets or, cause you just find all

00:30:46.920 sorts of weird stuff and you other, you wouldn't find on Amazon. You're not going to find it,

00:30:51.820 the shelves in Walmart, but you're just going to find just old random stuff. And there might be

00:30:56.140 an idea there for something. Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's fascinating. Cause I feel if you

00:31:00.640 think like throughout history, how like the really like brilliant minds, right from DaVinci to others,

00:31:05.920 how they came up with their most brilliant ideas, it would literally be, they observe birds or they

00:31:10.900 observe something. And then they're like, Oh my God, birds are flying in this and this way.

00:31:14.600 That is what I could use for my research here. Or like, you know, this idea that in a way we then see

00:31:19.340 also kind of, we see particular like patterns that we can maybe transfer also to our area.

00:31:24.540 And so I feel like there's, there's so much in there in terms of giving ourselves the space to

00:31:28.340 observe in, you know, to your point, like antiques and even like just sitting out there and observing

00:31:34.320 people in the street and, and, and really kind of seeing that as an opportunity. And one of the

00:31:38.180 things, I mean, we haven't talked about yet, but like what, what is so fascinating about

00:31:41.800 serendipity is, is this incubation time, right? That in a way you might go into the bookstore

00:31:46.380 today and you might read something or just see something. And then in half a year,

00:31:51.420 when you have a podcast guests who somehow reminds you of it, like you're like, you might have a

00:31:56.360 shower and like on a Sunday morning, and then it's like, Eureka, Hey, it fits exactly to what

00:32:00.120 they're doing. Or these kinds of things where this incubation time of serendipity, where yes,

00:32:04.320 the trigger might happen much earlier than the actually connecting the dots happens and so on.

00:32:08.760 And so that's the beauty of it that in a way, no moment quote unquote is lost because

00:32:12.300 it could always inform serendipity in the future.

00:32:15.640 Right. It's always a potential, potential connection. You never know.

00:32:19.140 So if you decide, like let's say you start noticing things, you, you start making connections

00:32:23.760 and you've put in a filter in place. You're not, you're not a deletante and scattered brain and

00:32:28.200 going all different directions. But let's say, I mean, one of the problems with serendipitous

00:32:32.340 things is that they can lead to a lot of dead ends. You don't know where it's going to go.

00:32:36.000 It could just be a complete dead end. How do you create buffer in your life so that you can handle

00:32:40.760 the potential, I'm not going to say setbacks or failures, but just something like, you know,

00:32:45.040 a serendipitous occasion didn't work out. How can you manage or sort of be able to absorb that

00:32:50.320 without it completely destroying your career or whatever?

00:32:53.680 Yeah. It's interesting because it comes a lot, I guess, to the question of how do we

00:32:58.380 build portfolios or how do we see essentially things such as a career or so more as a platform

00:33:04.320 or a portfolio type where you say, Hey, you know, if I'm working for, I don't know, Goldman Sachs

00:33:10.100 and I've been working on a project that didn't 100% work out or something. How can I reposition

00:33:15.060 myself within that company with something that relates to something else, but do that

00:33:19.680 in a way that is low risk? So a friend of mine, what she does, for example, is when she works

00:33:23.640 on projects, she always tries to kind of build in that idea that it's about experimentation.

00:33:28.300 And so she frames like every new idea she frames already in a way that is not about, I'm betting

00:33:34.600 my whole life on this. I'm betting whole my passion on this. I'm betting like everything on it

00:33:38.380 in terms of energy, like that's of course important, but she's also kind of framing it directly

00:33:42.640 as this is a new journey. This is something that's important. And so she sets herself up

00:33:47.840 for if it doesn't work out, like she can frame it around experimentation. She can frame it

00:33:52.860 around like it's something that just didn't work versus like it's something that makes

00:33:57.240 me a failure or else. And I feel unfortunately like we've created this culture, I think, of perfection

00:34:03.040 where everything that doesn't work out seems to be a sign that someone is a failure and like

00:34:07.540 kind of like an attribution to someone versus saying, no, we actually, you know, all human

00:34:12.680 beings that experiment and that learn. And I think everyone who's a parent among us, like

00:34:18.300 probably also can relate to that question. I mean, I'm not yet there, but I've had a lot of

00:34:22.300 conversations with parents around how do you essentially, you know, rubber stamp forward and

00:34:26.600 learn from kind of the things that don't work. And I feel that kind of mindset being really about

00:34:31.060 building in the buffer already by the way we frame it versus like saying, oh, like if it

00:34:35.960 doesn't work, like everything will fail. And it's interesting because maybe also from that other

00:34:40.500 perspective, then how life in itself constantly leads to some kind of dead ends, you know, in

00:34:45.500 terms of, I mean, I feel when I look back on my life, I've had so many quote unquote situations

00:34:49.500 of bad luck where in the moment it felt like really bad luck, but then actually it turned into

00:34:54.100 good luck again. And so I will never forget actually when I handed in the first draft of the

00:34:58.600 manuscript, I went to the publisher and I was like, hey, here, like here's the manuscript.

00:35:02.420 I'm so excited about it. And they were like, hey, look, we really like it, but we need more

00:35:06.020 love stories. And I was like, I don't know if I'm as the 35 year old, like single guy back

00:35:11.060 then, like, you know, if I'm the kind of person to tell people about love and they were like,

00:35:15.220 no, no, but let's see if we can find a love story. And so I had a meeting right after that

00:35:18.760 with an ex-girlfriend of mine, who's a very close friend of mine now. And so I asked her, so,

00:35:23.120 so, hey, I need a love story. Do you know of any love story? And she was like, well,

00:35:27.120 our story. And I was like, what do you mean our story? And so she was like, look, like we

00:35:30.920 serendipitously met in a Starbucks. We kind of, you know, went into a conversation. We made

00:35:35.480 emerge into a beautiful relationship and, and we're not together anymore, but we put each other

00:35:40.000 like on a beautiful trajectory emotionally. We connected each other to really nice people who

00:35:44.560 then led us into our new lives. And so it's kind of this, this whole idea that also the question of

00:35:49.420 what is success? Like is success of a relationship that you're still together or is it that you maybe put

00:35:54.280 each other on different trajectories? And so, so, so, so the point being that bad luck in the

00:35:58.560 moment, breaking up could also again now lead to good luck in the long run. And so really looking

00:36:03.660 at things from a long-term perspective also, I feel helps to, you know, de-risk the moment because

00:36:08.400 the moment itself probably is not really defining us over a longer period of time.

00:36:12.260 No, I think that's a good point. It's all about that frame of mind. It all goes back to that

00:36:15.960 framing things. I remember from my own life when I was in law school, this is when I started

00:36:20.760 The Art of Manless. It was originally a blog. It's still, we still write text content, but

00:36:23.940 then it turned into a podcast. But when I was in law school, I applied for some internships,

00:36:28.600 some summer internships with a big firm here in town. And like, you know, basically if you

00:36:33.820 get that summer internship, the idea is like they would offer you a job at the end of the

00:36:36.900 summer. I thought I was like, I was going to be a shoo-in and I worked really hard and I 0.94

00:36:41.580 didn't get picked. And I was at the moment, I was like, man, this is terrible. This is

00:36:45.660 devastating. This is awful. But I think if I had gotten the job offer, I wouldn't be

00:36:51.680 talking to you right now. I wouldn't be doing this. I would have been an attorney in Tulsa

00:36:56.380 doing oil and gas law or something.

00:36:58.440 Yeah. And isn't that the fascinating thing about life? When looking back, how a lot of

00:37:02.740 times those moments where we felt, oh, this is bringing me into a really bad kind of X,

00:37:09.900 Y, Z, which actually turned out to be, to your point, I'm sure you live a much more meaningful

00:37:13.480 life now. And so it's really that kind of reframing, but also in a way, I remember a

00:37:18.860 wonderful friend of mine, he always used to say that, you know, if you look at life and

00:37:23.220 you have 90 years to live and you really kind of look at one situation, like that a lot of

00:37:28.780 times when you kind of look back in life, like those kinds of situations reframe, like also

00:37:33.620 for yourself, like what is important to you. It's an opportunity for self to realize that

00:37:38.220 we are, you know, we think we want something to your point, like you want something in law,

00:37:42.180 but actually you realize maybe something else could be more meaningful. And so that taking

00:37:46.080 the long view in life actually also helps us to really discover more meaningful things

00:37:50.440 potentially. How can organizations develop the serendipity mindset?

00:37:54.800 It's interesting because so a lot of organizations at the moment, especially, right, like are really

00:37:58.860 scrambling to, hey, how do we cope with uncertainty? How do we cope with the idea that we can't plan

00:38:03.800 things out the way we thought we always could? And so I'm a big fan of developing practices

00:38:09.240 internally that help us to kind of get used to the idea that we have to constantly kind

00:38:14.200 of iterate, but also, you know, back to the point that we discussed earlier, that a clear

00:38:18.860 kind of sense of direction or sense of where we're going needs to be kind of combined with

00:38:23.500 those. And so one practice, for example, that I'm a big fan of is the project funeral or the

00:38:28.840 post-mortem, which is all about this idea that when a project doesn't work out, so let's say,

00:38:33.760 you know, in one example, they developed a kind of glass, a window glass where the light wouldn't

00:38:40.140 reflect. And it was a beautiful technology, but they didn't realize that people wouldn't pay a

00:38:44.960 lot of money for that product. Like when that doesn't work out, the idea is to say, okay,

00:38:50.240 present it in front of other project managers from other divisions and say what you learned from it.

00:38:55.020 Like it's not about celebrating failure, it's about celebrating the learning from what didn't work.

00:38:58.740 And so in this example, you know, they would lay it to rest. They would say, okay, we learned next

00:39:03.100 time. We'll try to understand the market better. And, you know, then someone in the audience goes

00:39:07.540 like, hey, have you considered what this would mean for solar? Have you considered if you would put

00:39:13.280 that technology into a solar device, like how amazing that could absorb energy and like really

00:39:18.140 be effective. And so that's how part of the solar division emerged serendipitously, unexpectedly,

00:39:23.260 but in a way they created a process, a practice that made it possible for people to connect those

00:39:28.700 kind of dots because they were incentivized to show us the dots, right? Usually when something

00:39:33.180 doesn't work out, we try to hide it away. We try to not talk about it, but by incentivizing people

00:39:37.920 to talk about it, that's when other people can help connect the dots. And so it's really those

00:39:42.240 kinds of practices, but also simple things like in meetings, you know, I mentioned earlier, like how

00:39:47.680 instead of just asking, I don't know, you know, how were our numbers last week or X, Y, Z, like we can

00:39:52.760 also ask things like, you know, was there anything last week that really surprised you that

00:39:56.760 you didn't expect? And what happens a lot of times then is that people start opening their eyes

00:40:01.600 to those things that are not expected. And by doing this, they might find new things.

00:40:06.300 So for example, one of my absolute favorites is the potato washing machine. And you know,

00:40:13.400 the potato washing machine was all about a company in China, they produce washing machines,

00:40:18.980 refrigerators, and they got calls from farmers who said, your crappy machine is always breaking down.

00:40:24.340 And so they asked, why is it breaking down? Well, we're trying to wash our potatoes and

00:40:29.380 it just doesn't work. And so what would we usually say? We would say, well, don't wash your potatoes

00:40:33.540 in a potato washing machine. It's not made for this. And they did the opposite. They said,

00:40:38.920 that's unexpected, but let's build in a dirt filter and make it a potato washing machine, 0.99

00:40:43.360 which then became one of their products. The point here is that they incentivize the culture where

00:40:48.220 if something new comes in, like an unexpected customer reaction, for example, then they have an investment

00:40:53.160 committee internally that says, oh, we can bet on this idea. We can bet on this idea. And that comes

00:40:58.000 really back to your question earlier. Also, what we can do as individuals in terms of thinking about

00:41:02.180 portfolios, companies can do the same where like if low probability things pop up, having a filter

00:41:07.280 process that allows us to bet on those things and invest into those unexpected things that come up.

00:41:12.240 Well, yeah, I know like Google has that where it's like, they have those projects, people,

00:41:16.160 they expect or not expect, they encourage their employees like to spend 20% of their time just

00:41:20.620 exploring stuff that interests them. Exactly. And that's in a way, really also around this,

00:41:25.620 how do you as a company frame the idea that everyone should ideally be incentivized, right?

00:41:30.240 To look out for new things. I mean, in the past, we could see a great, we have a chief innovation

00:41:34.180 officer or like a research and development department. But in a world that's so fast changing,

00:41:39.020 like everyone needs to be, you know, like constantly kind of thinking about how can we do things

00:41:43.440 differently. And I think especially at the moment, right? I mean, COVID has been so fascinating

00:41:47.500 because you see how breweries, for example, realize that they can't sell the alcohol to

00:41:52.860 restaurants who close down. So they kind of said, Oh, wow, like maybe we can use that alcohol to

00:41:58.080 produce hand sanitizer. And so you see like breweries turning into hand sanitizer companies

00:42:02.160 and those things. And that's not an R&D department that like works on something for half a year.

00:42:06.500 It's like the random person in a meeting saying, Hey, have we thought about if we can like produce

00:42:11.180 hand sanitizer? So it's really this idea that everyone ideally needs that kind of mindset because

00:42:15.320 in a fast changing world, it has to come from everywhere. It can't just be a couple of people.

00:42:19.700 Well, Christian, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn

00:42:21.960 more about the book and your work?

00:42:23.440 So there's a homepage, which is the serendipitymindset.com. And I'm on Twitter,

00:42:28.420 Chris Serendip. And yeah, I think that's the two major sources probably.

00:42:32.140 Fantastic. Well, Christian Bush, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:42:34.320 Thank you so much for having me.

00:42:35.740 My guest today was Christian Bush. He's the author of the book,

00:42:37.880 The Serendipity Mindset. It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.

00:42:41.100 You can find out more information about the book at the website,

00:42:43.480 theserendipitymindset.com. Also check out our show notes at aom.is

00:42:47.280 slash serendipity. You can find links to resources where we delve deeper into this topic.

00:42:58.040 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. Check out our website at

00:43:01.680 artofmanliness.com where you can find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles written

00:43:05.560 over the years. And if you'd like to enjoy ad-free episodes of the AOM podcast, you can do so on

00:43:09.080 Stitcher Premium. Head over to stitcherpremium.com, sign up, use code manliness at checkout for

00:43:13.360 free month trial. Once you're signed up, download the Stitcher app on Android or iOS, and you can

00:43:17.180 start enjoying ad-free episodes of the AOM podcast. And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate

00:43:20.700 if you take one minute to give us a review on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. Helps that a lot. And if

00:43:24.460 you've done that already, thank you. Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member

00:43:28.120 who you would think would get something out of it. As always, thank you for the continued support.

00:43:31.520 Until next time, this is Brett McKay reminding you not to listen to the AOM podcast,

00:43:34.860 but put what you've heard into action.

00:43:43.360 Thank you.

00:43:44.240 Thank you.

00:43:44.520 Thank you.

The Art of Manliness - November 18, 2020

#662： The Art and Science of Creating Good Luck

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript