Ariana Huffington s new book, Thrive, is all about redefining success beyond power and money. In it, she argues that we need to redefine success in terms of beyond the first two metrics: our well-being, our capacity to give, and our relationship with our family and friends.
00:04:00.880Mm-hmm. So, I mean, you're a woman of great success. What inspired you to think about or start
00:04:09.540thinking about this idea of the third metric? Was there a Genesis story?
00:04:12.900Yes, there was a Genesis story. And in fact, I opened the book with a Genesis story because it was pretty dramatic.
00:04:21.700I collapsed from burnout, exhaustion, and sleep deprivation on April 6, 2007, two years after we found that the Huffington Post.
00:04:32.320And I broke my cheekbone and got four stitches on my right eye. And as I was kind of, as I came to, in a pool of blood on the floor of my office,
00:04:43.900I started asking myself that question, you know, is that what success is? Because by any same definition of success,
00:04:53.260if you're lying in a pool of blood, you're not successful, whatever society may say, in terms of the first two metrics.
00:04:59.480Yeah. And then I looked around me and I saw that, in fact, it wasn't just me, that it was our culture generally that was suffering from burnout
00:05:13.460and from what, you know, Mary Slaughter has called time marches, you know, this equation of being harried and overworked with machismo and manliness.
00:05:24.480Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so, I mean, you go into great detail about some of the problems
00:05:29.220that we're facing as individuals and as a society because we're so driven for power and money.
00:05:35.460Can you, you know, just discuss a few of those issues that we're seeing as a society besides burnout?
00:05:43.620Yeah. So, we will start with our health.
00:05:47.420We see now that three quarters of our health care costs come from stress-related diseases, chronic, preventable, stress-related diseases.
00:05:59.840And we see in our own individual lives, you know, we see the number of very successful men,
00:06:08.040especially with heart attacks in the face, with high blood pressure, diabetes.
00:06:13.900And we really need to ask ourselves, is this some kind of collective delusion that we're living under?
00:06:21.440But the only way to achieve our dreams and accomplish what we want is by paying that heavy price in terms of our health.
00:06:37.900In fact, one of my favorite sections in the book is the one that has scientific study after scientific study
00:06:46.060that shows that sleep, meditation, taking some time to renew ourselves, are actually performance enhancement, too.
00:06:56.880And that athletes are using them more and more.
00:07:01.520They're kind of ahead of the rest of us and ahead of business people in incorporating them because it makes them better on the court.
00:07:11.620Yeah. And besides the health issues, you also discussed sort of the societal issues we're having, right?
00:07:18.200Like a sense, like a lack of community, you know, some of the things, the things you hear people gripe about or complain about on talk shows and the like.
00:08:26.580As I was reading your book, the thing that kept on coming up in my mind was like, you know, it seems like, you know, social critics and philosophers and prophets, you know, since time immemorial, they've been admonishing us, right?
00:08:37.600To avoid worshiping the false idols of money and power.
00:08:49.780Why is it so hard for us to, you know, not focus on money and power, even when we know it's not good for us?
00:08:56.600Yes, and you know, neither you nor I are saying that there's anything wrong with money or power.
00:09:04.720It's just that when there are the exclusive objectives of our lives, that we kind of basically shrink ourselves down to those two metrics and miss out the enormous possibilities we encompass.
00:09:20.940It's not just that we forget philosophers and social critics from time immemorial.
00:09:28.060It's also that we forget our own wake-up calls.
00:09:31.940I mean, on my book, too, I've had so many people come up to me and say, you know, I was diagnosed with breast cancer or I was diagnosed with heart disease.
00:09:40.500And immediately after that, I re-looked at my life, I re-prioritized what mattered, et cetera.
00:09:47.780But now it's two years later and I'm fine and I'm back to my old ways.
00:09:55.320And, you know, I honestly think that I might have done the same thing, but somehow something in me made me write this book and now I talk about it every day.
00:10:16.140But it's also harder to relax when I'm constantly kind of reminding myself of these messages.
00:10:24.640That's why I say in the book that the world constantly sends us messages about making more money, climbing the career ladder, being more recognized or more powerful.
00:10:38.460And we need to create our own daily ritual and a little tribe, a little support group to support us to also include the third metric in our lives.
00:10:49.740And that's why we're at us so many small, microscopic steps that we can take to make this real.
00:10:59.300You know, at the end of each of the sections, there are three little steps and they're very practical and they're very manageable and we can all do them starting today.
00:11:08.640And then what happens, because that's what happened to me, is that you begin to feel the reward, you know, the reward of actually waking up in the morning and feeling really recharged and ready to face the day and ready to deal with all the obstacles and challenges that every day brings.
00:11:41.540You know, I've had the same experience you have where like I'll get on, I'll start doing the things I'm supposed to, I know what to do, like getting more sleep and meditating and volunteering.
00:11:51.200But then I always backslide. And I think part of the problem that I have is that, you know, like money and power, it's like you there's a concrete metric, right?
00:12:00.740You can look at your bank account and say, hey, I'm doing pretty well because I have X amount of dollars.
00:12:05.420Or you can look at your title at your in your job and say, oh, I'm advancing up the career ladder.
00:12:11.680It's a little fuzzier with, you know, well-being like and, you know, general domestic happiness or gross domestic happiness or whatever.
00:12:18.560I mean, you can say, I'm feeling happy, but then you kind of forget about it because you can't, I don't know, it's hard to like make it make it concrete and real.
00:12:27.360I mean, do you have any suggestions on making that like make, I guess, measuring those metrics of happiness and well-being where it's like actually concrete?
00:12:36.620So it's similar to like, you know, your bank account, right? You can see it and like, I'm doing well.
00:12:40.380So that's a great point. And, and I know that what makes it more concrete is becoming more aware of our own state of being.
00:12:52.240Let me give you an example. Look at how we treat our smartphone.
00:12:56.980We are very aware of how much battery is remaining because you get these alerts, right?
00:13:02.540Let's just say, if you have an iPhone, 20% of battery remaining or 17% of battery remaining.
00:13:10.160And by about 13%, I personally begin to get worried.
00:13:14.080I look around for a recharging shrine where I can plug my phone and they're everywhere, like in our homes, our offices, the airport.
00:13:24.060And what if we could treat ourselves as well as we treat our smartphones?
00:13:30.320What we would need to do is to, you know, increase our awareness of how we're feeling.
00:13:35.700Because that's really what you are saying. At the moment, we are very fuzzy about it.
00:13:39.960And, I mean, I clearly was so completely fuzzy that I didn't even know that I was, I was running on below zero battery when I collapsed, right?
00:14:34.400So if I can, when I'm centered and recharged, it's almost as though I'm bigger than all the things that can go wrong.
00:14:42.880I can sort of expand to include them and maintain that center that Marcus Aurelius, who after all was the emperor of Rome, as well as being a stoic philosopher, he called it the inner citadel.
00:14:56.460And he said, you can be in your inner citadel no matter what happens.
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00:18:07.220So, in your book, you mentioned a few of these suggestions on how to overcome burnout, and you've talked a few about a few of them in the podcast, like sleeping and meditation.
00:18:20.280What are some—I mean, there's too many we can talk about, but what do you think are the most, I guess, the suggestions you think if people started using today, they would notice an immediate change in their life?
00:18:32.000Okay, well, the first step that I recommend at the end of the well-being section is that unless you are one of the few wise people who get all the sleep they want, meaning all the sleep they need, because you cannot oversleep.
00:18:45.000You can overeat, but you can't oversleep.
00:18:48.140Start by getting 30 minutes more than you are getting now.
00:18:51.540And I have 55 pages of scientific endnotes, because I want to convince the most stubborn skeptics about these things, that sleep is, for example, like a wonder drug.
00:19:05.400It affects our health, our creativity, our mental clarity, how fast we age, everything.
00:19:11.680And so that's why we need to deal with this sort of macho belief that sleep is for losers, you sleep when you're dead, you know, all these things that we say to each other.
00:19:25.940And the assumption that somehow sleep deprivation is some kind of a really good symbol.
00:19:31.540I actually have been in the diary with a little blouse that he had only gotten four hours sleep the night before, and I wanted to say, but I didn't say it.
00:19:39.660You know what, if you had gotten five, you'd seen it would have been more interesting.
00:19:47.820You see blog posts, like on Forbes or Business Insider, saying, these CEOs only get by in four hours of sleep, and that's supposed to be a good thing.
00:19:56.240Yeah, and I was actually, I was speaking at Tufts University, and I was with a very successful CEO who, after saying that she only got five hours sleep, she admits that she does not remember the last time she was not tired.
00:20:14.320And I hear that a lot, and it's so sad, because the difference between going through life tired and going through life recharge is huge.
00:20:46.960And another thing that I know we can't go through all the steps, but there are 12 specific steps, three at the end of each section, but another one which I think may probably be very relevant for your listeners is learning to disconnect from our technology, all our technology, all our devices at the end of the day.
00:21:09.500So for me, what I say is, at the end of the day, turn off your devices and gently escort them out of your bedroom.
00:21:20.540Charging your smartphone by your bed is not a smart idea, because if you wake up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom for whatever reason, you are going to be tempted to look at your data.
00:21:31.160And if you look at your data, your sleep will not be as recharging as it needs to be, and as it wouldn't be otherwise, and it's just not worth it.
00:21:40.780And I have a lot of substitutes for an alarm clock.
00:21:43.860You can buy one from Pottery Barn, a beautiful vintage-looking one for $32.
00:21:49.440If you need to be reached, because let's say you're a news editor or your children may need to reach you, you can, I have, that's what I do.
00:21:57.020I have an old-fashioned phone with no data, but if there's an emergency, people can bring it, or you can have a landline.
00:22:07.580Can you imagine that? Maybe you can bring the landlines back.
00:22:10.340Yeah, I actually installed an app on my phone that blocks the rest of my apps except for the phone capability for certain time periods.
00:22:20.960Like when I'm with my kids in the morning and at night, I can't look at my phone to check email or anything like that, but I can get phone calls.
00:22:29.580Oh, that's so great. I'd love to know. I don't know about that app, but it would be great if you can put it on the site, and then I can share it with our readers, too.
00:22:37.500Yeah, it's been great. It's totally kicked the habit that I had of just constantly checking.
00:22:42.820And you also, in your book, at the end, in the appendix, you give a lot of, speaking of using technology to help us wean ourselves off technology,
00:22:50.560you provide all these apps and services that can help us, I guess, manage our technology use a bit better.
00:22:58.580Exactly, because technology is addictive.
00:23:03.600I have picked my favorite 12 apps that can help us avoid destruction, and my 12 favorite apps that can teach us to meditate,
00:23:13.540as well as my 12 favorite apps that can help us learn where we want to give our time, resources,
00:23:22.080you know, just kind of explore all the possibilities that we can match ourselves and what we want to do with the greatest needs.
00:23:36.020Yeah, actually, I learned about a few new ones that I'm already using now, so thank you for doing that.
00:26:15.280Right, and it even makes you, yeah, and it even makes you enjoy them even when they're misbehaving or doing things you wish they hadn't done.
00:26:24.240Yeah, yeah, yeah, I really love that idea of momentomori.
00:26:28.820And I think, you know, I thought it was interesting you just talked about how, as a society, we're just so uncomfortable with death.
00:26:33.460Like, we just hide it away, you know, don't even want to think about it.
00:26:38.400But it's such a natural part of life, and I think we're missing out on something by not making it a part of our life.
00:26:45.220So Thrive seems to be directed towards women.
00:26:49.500You talk a lot about how, you know, women have gotten to the workforce, but as a consequence of sort of following this kind of masculine drive for power and money, they've run into some problems that didn't imagine they were going to have.
00:27:03.880But the advice you give and the suggestions you give are for both men and women.
00:27:07.680I'm curious to get your insight on this.
00:27:09.460How has our culture's constant work and drive for power and money affected women and men differently, or has it even done that?
00:27:23.940Yeah, first of all, I would say that the message is equally applicable to women and to men.
00:27:32.240The reason why I think that women have, in certain areas, to lead the way is because the way the world has been designed now, focusing on the first two metrics of money and power, has been primarily designed by men.
00:27:52.620So now I think a lot of good men are helping redesign it.
00:27:56.860And there is a plethora of men to use as role models.
00:28:01.260And I quote a lot of them in the book, you know, Mark Bertolini, the CEO of Etna, who discovered the benefits of meditation, yoga, and acupuncture.
00:28:11.960So she's there, because she's making a scheme, actually, and then made them available to these 49,000 Etna employees, and then brought Duke University to actually put a number on the improvements, exactly back to what you were saying, actually making this metric less fuzzy.
00:28:31.300And Duke University said that there was a 7% reduction in healthcare cost, a 69-minute improvement in productivity every day.
00:28:44.600And men are really good at making the metrics less fuzzy.
00:28:48.740And I quote a lot of other men who are integrating these practices in their lives to kind of integrate the third metric in their lives and their businesses.
00:29:01.980And so I feel that, like with every shift, this global shift we're going through, we have these early adopters, and there will be men and women, because also sometimes women feel they have to outmatch a man in order to succeed.
00:29:20.920And you have women who have to succeed, women executives, congratulate each other for working 24-7, et cetera.
00:29:32.420So I think it's not so much a matter of gender, but how comfortable you are with yourself in order to begin to be part of this cultural revolution, really, that's going on.
00:29:50.480But I feel like men are going to have a harder time, I guess, embracing a thrive mentality, because we're so socialized and ingrained to be like, you need, you know, get money, get power.
00:30:45.940And they and their coaches have clearly recognized that when they integrate these practices, these new attitudes into their daily lives and into their coaching, they are much better on the court.
00:31:09.020And there is a great way that this was summed up by Andy Murray in an interview with Charlie Rose.
00:31:14.360But I think a lot of your listeners who are now, business owners and managers, may be able to respond to it.
00:31:25.340And he said that when he's recharged and really rested and he's on the court, the ball comes at him in slow motion.
00:31:34.400And I love that as a metaphor for our life, because when we are juggling everything, you know, when we are managing multiple things and managing crises, et cetera, sometimes we feel overwhelmed.
00:31:50.500And he says that everything is coming at us all at once.
00:31:53.780And if we can change that perception, it's kind of amazing how much it magnifies our leadership potential.
00:33:01.020Our guest today was Ariana Huffington.
00:33:04.000She's the founder of the Huffington Post and also the author of the latest book, Thrive, the third metric to redefining success and creating a life of well-being, wisdom, and wonder.
00:33:12.760And you can find that on Amazon.com or bookstores everywhere.
00:33:18.600Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:33:22.200For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com.