#72： The Charisma Myth With Olivia Fox
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Summary
Olivia Fox, author of The Charisma Myth, argues that the idea that charisma is some sort of magical, innate thing you're born with is a myth. In our discussion day, Brett and Olivia discuss what it means to be a charismatic person and how you can use that to improve your business and love life.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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Now we've written about some really famous and great men on the site and a lot of them
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have one thing in common. They were charismatic. Napoleon, Theodore Roosevelt, Alexander the
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Great, Socrates, Jesus, they all had charisma in spades. People wanted to be near them because
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they gave off some sort of aura that made people feel good about themselves. Is this charisma,
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this ability, is it innate or is it something you're born with or is it something you can develop
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intentionally? Well, our guest today has written a book and said that the whole idea that charisma
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is some sort of magical innate thing you're born with is a myth. Her name is Olivia Fox and she is
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the author of the book, The Charisma Myth, How Anyone Can Master the Art and Science of Personal
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Magnetism. In our discussion day, Olivia and I discuss what it means to be charismatic. What
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are the things, the attributes need to be a charismatic person? How you can use that to
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improve your business life, your love life? It's a really fascinating discussion. I think
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you're going to get a lot out of it. So stay tuned.
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Okay. So you are a charisma expert. That's what it says on your webpage. How does one become
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a charisma expert? Because I thought it was just sort of like, that's like being an expert
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in alchemy or something like that. So how did this happen?
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I had personal desperation, which is often a great motivator. I was very much socially awkward.
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Actually, you could probably say completely socially inept until my late teens. And that
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was a moment at which I realized I had two choices. Either I exiled myself to a desert
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island, which is still an attractive option on occasion, or I learned how to make this whole
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There, so just out of need. You were an awkward, awkward teenager.
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I was, yes. And in many respects, I still am a diehard introvert. And the desert island option
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is one that I often long for after an intense, let's say, series of speeches.
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Okay. I understand that feeling. I've had that as well. All right. So your book is called
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The Charisma Myth. So what's The Myth of Charisma?
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The myth essentially sums up the book in one sentence. Charisma is not innate. It can be
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learned. And here's how. And I think that one of the reasons that we assume that charisma
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is innate is because it's a learned behavior that is learned at such a young age that by the
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time we reach adulthood, which is usually when we start observing the charismatic ones,
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it looks as if they've always had it. Whereas in fact, it's a bit like walking. You learn how to
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walk by modeling others' behavior and you fall a lot. And eventually you can do it, well,
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for some people really in their sleep. Charisma is the same way. It just so happens that some people
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started modeling early and others simply didn't.
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Interesting. So it's not innate. Okay. Well, here's a question I have. I'm a parent. How do
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I know if my kid's going to be charismatic? I have a son that's almost four. Can I tell right
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Well, you've got a couple of predictors and the strongest predictor is, are you or is your
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Yeah. And then you can look at how they interact. And we're going to talk about the core components
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of charisma and you can actually start seeing them early on, presence, attentiveness to others,
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self-confidence. But again, because it's something that can be learned, I like to compare it to
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learning how to drive a car. So certain people have certain predispositions towards becoming good
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drivers. And not all of us is going to become a race car driver in the same way that not all of
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us become Bill Clinton. But most of us are able to learn enough to get from point A to point B.
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Okay. When you say predisposition, is that, are you perhaps suggesting there is a genetic component
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Well, I would say a personality component. And looking at the genetic components of personality,
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of course, gets a bit tricky because then you get into not just the nature versus nurture,
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but what are the environments that causes certain genes to express or to not express, et cetera.
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Exactly. But yes, there is a personality component. So being an introvert, I can be charismatic for brief
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periods of time, sometimes for longer periods of time. And I can express certain forms of charisma
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easier than others. For everyone, there's going to be certain styles that come more naturally.
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Okay. Yeah. We're going to get more into those styles. So this is great. So there's like hope for
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people who feel like they're socially awkward. They're not doomed to a life of social awkwardness.
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Absolutely. And in many ways, the introverts have a big advantage because introverts, by definition,
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don't need to be the center of attention. And that makes them fantastic listeners and gives them an
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easier chance to attain the core component of focus.
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Excellent. Okay. So, all right. So we've always thought of charisma as this sort of magical power,
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but you showcase in your book just like tons of research that it's not magical at all.
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Yeah. So how did scientists or psychologists, whatever, how did they research,
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convert charisma from magic to science? How did that happen?
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So that's really interesting. For me, the first mystery was why hasn't it been studied yet? If you
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look at the different varieties of leadership that are studied, you'll find everything from
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transformational leadership to psycho-spiritual, I mean, everything under the sun. And charisma until
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recently really hadn't been studied much. It seemed to be kind of a taboo subject.
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And the best explanation I found is that Peter Drucker, one of the most, possibly the most
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influential business manager, sorry, business thinker and thought leader of the 20th century,
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was vehemently opposed to charisma since he had experienced the Nazi and the fascist regimes
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personally. So there is a theory which would make sense that it wasn't until Drucker's shadow passed
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that people started looking at charisma again. And in terms of how they did that in a lab,
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they were able to raise or lower people's level of charisma as if they were turning a dial
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simply by instructing them to display specific charismatic behaviors.
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Wow. So I mean, what's some of the research that's out there that says, yeah, you can change
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your charisma? I mean, is there a specific, like maybe an experiment that's kind of sort of the
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bulwark or sort of lays the foundation for all this?
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There's not been one experiment. The one that I referenced just now is Howell and Frost's experiment
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in a lab. And this was, that particular one was a combination of self-report, meaning
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what were the ratings of charisma of the same person with charismatic behaviors and with
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non-charismatic behaviors in a lab environment. So this was really a controlled study. But there's
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been a variety of ways from how persuasive the person was, plus how likable the person was,
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plus how impressive the person was. And you can really decompose it into a series of attributes,
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Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that there's all this research now. And because you mentioned that,
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yeah, people didn't like studying or talking about charisma. I love collecting old books and
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books from like the late 19th century and early 20th century, there's like books about animal
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magnetism, how to develop your animal magnetism, which is basically charisma. It's like how you can
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hypnotize people. And it was kind of goofy stuff, but I guess that was sort of an example of early
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It was, yes. And a few authors, what they did is that they portrayed it as a negative.
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So what they were doing is saying, listen, here's how you could develop this dangerous quality that
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is charisma if you wanted to. But of course, you're not such a person, et cetera, et cetera.
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Yeah. Okay. Well, so how can charisma improve your life? Because there's some interesting research
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that you cite in the book that besides just making you more persuasive, but there's some other things
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that just if you're a man, for example, developing charisma can do for you.
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It's pretty extraordinary. Well, let me start with a non-obvious, which is that having a charismatic
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leader raises your stock price, the stock price of a company in terms of, in times of financial
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difficulty compared to a company, an organization with a non-charismatic leader. There's other examples
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of the persuasiveness, how fast you advance in your career. But of course, let's get down to the subject
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that you're probably talking about, which is, does it make you more attractive to whichever gender
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you're trying to attract? Yes, of course. That's probably the number one X factor that dominates
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all others, particularly if you're seeking to attract women who tend to be in the sexual and
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romantic context more susceptible to charisma than men.
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Interesting. And there's been studies that show that it can actually make you look taller.
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Oh, taller, better looking, more intelligent, and richer.
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Amazing. Well, I'm curious about that bit about companies that do well with a charismatic leader.
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I mean, couldn't that actually nip, you know, bite him in the butt? Because you can just have like a
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charismatic leader, but the guy is doing nothing for the company, right?
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Yeah. Charisma is a big problem in the sense that it's like any other tool. A knife can be used to
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heal or to hurt in the hands of a criminal or in the hands of a surgeon. It's the same tool. It's a
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knife. The very same with charisma. Let's say that you've got a save the world organization,
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having a charismatic leader at the helm of that can be a tremendous benefit to the world.
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Yeah. Yeah. I think, who was it that wrote Good to Great? Who's that guy?
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Yeah. He doesn't like charisma. He's like the drugger. He's like, you know,
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boring guys do better for the company in the long run.
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Yeah. And he might be right because charisma really lets you get away with a lot because it makes people
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And that could be a good thing. So like an example of a CEO who had lots of charisma
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Obviously, yes. He would be one of our paragons of charisma. But again,
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what's really interesting is that for Jobs, his charisma was 100% learned. And I don't think it's
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up anymore, but I used to have on my blog a analysis of Jobs learning charisma from 84 to 2011
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with a point-by-point example with each of the videos where you can see him progressively
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learning each of the charisma components. And of course, with the 2011 version, when you compare
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directly with the 1994, it's hard to believe it's the same guy.
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Wow. All right. So there's hope for everyone then.
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Okay. Great. So let's get in sort of the nitty gritty because I'm sure everyone's like listening.
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Okay. Oh, yeah. This is great. I want to be more charismatic. How do I do it? So you argue that
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there are three pillars of charisma. We've actually written about this on our website. Your book
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So what are those three pillars for the folks who haven't read that post or have seen your book?
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Well, shame on them. And I think they should go to both your and my website to catch up on that.
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Presence, power, and warmth. So what they mean, if you think about someone describing their experience
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with a highly charismatic person, you'll often hear them talk about what an incredible presence
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that person has, whoever it is from Condi Rice to Bill Clinton. And what presence is, is literally
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the ability to stay present moment by moment with whatever is happening and not let your mind wander.
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And the reason this is so critical is that if you've ever been in a conversation where only half
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your mind is present and the other half is thinking about something else, there's a high chance that
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your eyes will glaze over and your reactions will be a split second delayed. And people will catch that
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on a subconscious level. And it will give them, it's called an incongruence in technical terms,
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and it will give them the feeling that something's not quite right. So lack of presence, not being fully
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present in the conversation, in the interaction, presence is kind of the foundation. If you don't have that,
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everything else falls apart. So then there's power and warmth.
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Yeah. So power, I want to really clarify that power is not actual physical power. It's not the
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power to command an army. It doesn't relate to the actual power you wield, rather the perception
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that we get of your ability to impact the world around you. And there are a variety of signals that we
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look to, to get that. And of course, all the, um, accoutrement, you know, I'm French is my native
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language. So I'll always have trouble saying French words with an American accent, but all the little
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signals around a person that can symbolize, um, power and status, social status, a lot of intelligence,
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whatever it might be. But the biggest determinant is the perceived level of self-confidence. And the
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reason for that is that it's a heuristic, like many other things, our brain uses a shortcut to
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determine power. And if you project self-confidence, the brain will, the other person will assume that
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you actually have something to be confident about. Gotcha. So, I mean, I thought it was,
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what I was struck by though, about power and we wrote about it, I surprisingly got a lot of pushback on
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it. Uh, cause like, Oh, well, it's just like, people are like, Oh, you know, this is, if you display, if
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you're trying to like display power, you're like, you're trying to be like a douchebag. You're trying to be
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domineering. It just, I was kind of surprised that people were kind of uncomfortable displaying power.
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Well, let me put it this way. A lot of people are uncomfortable with the idea of trying to display
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power or confidence and then being found out to the fact that they actually don't have any. And so
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you'll get a lot of pushback about that. But just to be clear, there's a difference between confidence
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and arrogance. And I'm, I'm very clear that what you want to focus is the confidence. What you want
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to display is the confidence, not the arrogance. And, uh, um, the difference really will show up in
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minute areas in your body language. So let's say that you're, if your head is tilted up too far,
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uh, there's a chance that you will come across as the classic expression, looking down your nose at
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someone comes from the fact that when we are contemptuous, we really do, uh, lift up our noses
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as if the other person stinks. So, um, so yeah, if you, and if you, I'm always delighted to, um, to talk
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about whatever pushback you get. So if you have any specific areas, that was the one. And
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I think a lot of it was with, um, cause I tried to explain like, yeah, it's not, you're not trying
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to be domineering. It's just showing you have confidence. Um, but I think people just, when
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they see power, oh, you gotta show display power. Uh, there's, I think often negative connotations
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with that. And they kind of read into stuff that wasn't there, which I think is, is kind
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of interesting. I mean, that's one of the interesting things with a blog people, the comments usually
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say more about the person than like the confidence. So power. So besides what's like, I guess you
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talked about some like specific things you can do to increase your, I guess, present
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or display of power that are sort of subtle. Um, what are some of those things that guys
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I think that one of the most important ones, and here's a good example, Brett, right now
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I can hear you typing on the keyboard, which immediately gives me the, uh, my computer froze.
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There you go. Uh, gives the, and remember perception is reality. It doesn't matter what
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reality is, right? So of course, reality is that your computer frozen, you need to get
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it back on frozen for a variety of excellent reasons, but the perception is going to be,
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There you go. Um, I think the fastest way for guys is to get comfortable with what's called
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expansive poses. And there's, there's an example in the book. And I think you put it on the website
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where, um, you learn how to kind of position yourself like a, like a big gorilla or like an
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army general and really try to take up as much physical space as you can. And that will actually
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affect your biochemistry. Um, but the other thing that I don't think I was able to put in the book
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and that I will often recommend to, to guys I'm coaching is, um, take martial arts and take a real
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martial art. And I know I'm going to piss some people off, but don't go for a sissy sport like
1.00
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karate. Um, go for Brazilian jujitsu, MMA, judo, wrestling, go for a full contact sport. And the
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reason is not only do you really learn focus and how to inhabit the space, but there's knowing that
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you could take down whoever it is that you're in front of really gives you a background, uh,
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um, un-intimidability, if that makes sense. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, actually we, we had a,
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we have a guest post coming up, a guy who started a fight club in his garage and he works in sales.
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And, um, he says like, it's helped him. Like when he gives a presentation, I just have a little bit
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more confidence. And he's like, he's not, he's not like a, a bro. Like he got his MMA and in writing
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from Notre Dame. Um, he's a really smart guy and he's, he's, he beats the crap out of him,
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out of his friends in his garage, like once a week. And it's helped his career.
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It'll help you in a lot of ways. And the other thing that's fun is that I've never met as nice
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and calm people as I have, uh, on the fighting mat. It's, it's remarkable in the way that one,
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you get to work out any aggression that you have, um, on the tatami or in whichever, um, art that
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you're practicing. And two, the really mean guys often get weeded out. The other thing that I would
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very much recommend, and this will, this one hits, uh, all three areas of presence, power,
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and warmth is improv. And many, many cities have, uh, classes of improv theater. Let's be clear,
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not improv comedy, improv theater. And improv really teaches you to think on your feet,
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um, and be comfortable improvising, obviously. And it can, that one can make a gigantic difference
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to your social confidence. Very cool. You know, you talked about kind of taking up more space as
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a way to display power. I remember like this very distinctly when I was a kid, my dad, when he'd have
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employees come over to our house for like, you know, a barbecue or a grill, like I remember like
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he would like, when he'd sit on the recliner, like he would like drape a leg over. Exactly. And like,
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I remember like a kid, I was like, that's pretty goofy. But then now I'm like, that's just like,
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it was like total power display by my, by my dad. That's an alpha male signaling. Yeah. Okay. My
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dad, my dad was an alpha male. That's cool. Okay. Doesn't that feel good? Yeah. Uh, yeah. And the
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third recommendation that I, that I would give, if you really want to take charisma to the next level,
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uh, take tango. And the reason that I specifically recommend tango is that it's one of the few truly
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improvisational partner dance that also, um, has, I mean, capoeira obviously is, is both a, a fighting
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art and a dance that, that is improvisational, but it doesn't have that contact. It doesn't have that
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dialogue, um, that close that tango will give you. And so, uh, since conversation, any interaction
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really is a dance. It's a conversation. There is, there is a choreography in learning
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improvisational choreography in the partner space can make you a whole lot more powerful
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in that realm. Interesting. Yeah. So yeah, I, I, I actually took dance lessons with my wife,
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uh, and we did tango and yeah. And it was, it was really cool to kind of, you know, you use your body
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to like, just sort of subtly, you know, guide your partner to like where you want them to go.
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Yeah. You communicate. Yeah. Okay. Well, so we talked about presence. We talked about warmth or not
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warmth, talk about power. So like what warmth, like what is, what do you mean by that? Just
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kind, gentle. Yeah. Warmth is really simply giving people the impression that you have goodwill towards
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them. And it does go back to evolutionary roots. Someone who both has the power to affect our world
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and things kindly of us, uh, is a really valuable asset. So that's someone that we really want to pay
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attention to focus on, uh, cultivate as a, as a contact and warmth is evaluated 100% through body
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language and behavior. There, there's going to be no status symbols. Uh, there's the clothing that you
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wear, uh, will be much, really won't play any part. What we look at, um, is not the face in general,
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but more specifically the eyes and the voice. Those are the two biggest markers of warmth.
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So you can't, it's hard to fake warmth. Yeah. And, and, uh, warmth is indeed because it relies so,
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uh, thoroughly on body language and because there's far too many body language signals that we send out
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every minute for us to fake it good, uh, coherently. Warmth is one of those things that you can't fake.
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Now that said, you can placebo effect your way into a warmth mindset that will then translate
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into your, uh, your body language and behavior. Okay. Gotcha. So do you need all three to be
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charismatic or can you, yeah, you do. Yep. And the only thing that changes is what kind of charisma
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you'll get depending on which of the three is most prevalent, but you absolutely need all three and
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you, you can't do without any of them. All right. So yeah, that leads us to our next question. So what are
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these types of charisma you talk about? So let's be clear that it's broken down to four charisma
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styles in the book because Penguin insisted that it be broken down. Yeah. I know how that goes
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writing a book, right? Yeah. Um, there's, there's no really four categories. Uh, obviously there's
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every charisma is more complex than that. And it's going to be mixing between the styles. It's,
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you can flow from one style to the other, but they're, they're good groupings. Uh, and also there
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are a couple of styles of that. I couldn't put in the book simply for decency levels.
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And also because I'm focused on the business world. Um, but let's say that you have highest
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levels of presence. What you'll get is focused charisma. And if you know, Elon Musk, the founder
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of Tesla, SpaceX, et cetera, uh, Elon is, is very, very focused charisma, um, capable. And he can
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really turn that particular kind of charisma on at will. Um, if you think of jobs, which is of course
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what too many people seek to emulate, you're looking at visionary charisma. Let's say that,
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uh, with you of the three power confidence is the highest of the, of the three levels, you'd be
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looking at authority charisma and, um, Colin Powell is a great example of that. And last but not
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least, uh, if warmth is the highest, you can have the, um, the effect that both the Dalai Lama and
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Clinton have, they both rely primarily on warmth. Gotcha. But they still have those other elements
00:25:26.260
though. Like power. And that's kind of surprising. Like the Dalai Lama displays power, right?
00:25:30.820
Even though he's the Dalai Lama. Come on, the status. Well, especially because he's the Dalai Lama.
00:25:35.860
Um, there are many other monks who have this. Mathieu Ricard is a good example. Um, I had a delegation,
00:25:41.900
I met a delegation of eight monks recently in the Bay area, um, who are just incredibly cool,
00:25:47.580
who are coming on a, what they call a compassion tour and being in their presence is really being
00:25:53.460
in the, in the presence of pure joy, unconditional kindness and goodwill. It's, it's, it's, uh,
00:26:00.440
it's almost overpowering, but because there isn't this whole status built around them,
00:26:05.800
it's not the same otherworldly effect and reality distortion field as you'll get
00:26:12.760
with a Dalai Lama. Interesting. So these different charismatic styles, I, you kind of mentioned
00:26:19.020
earlier that, um, all of us might be predisposed or be more comfortable with a certain style because
00:26:25.580
of just of our personalities. Yeah. And the rule of thumb is, uh, in situations where the outcome
00:26:30.860
doesn't really matter, try out new styles and, and push out of your comfort zone in a high stakes
00:26:36.780
situation, stick close to home and, and use the tools that you're comfortable with and that you
00:26:41.140
can rely on. Gotcha. So if you're giving like a big pitch, like this is not the time to show that you
00:26:46.920
are the alpha male, you know, you're not going to be a gorilla if you're not naturally a gorilla.
00:26:52.360
If you're not naturally a gorilla, a gorilla, correct. Um, and, and a lot of people have a certain
00:26:58.720
fluency of styles. And also remember this, the whole 10,000 hours really comes into play. So
00:27:06.740
I think you'd mentioned the, the video that's on my website. That's one where it seems so effortless
00:27:16.160
because I could say it backwards in my sleep. I've been giving this presentation on this subject
00:27:22.200
for 10 years. And as a result, every breath is conscious. Every tilt of the head is deliberate.
00:27:30.760
That is the choreography of movement. And obviously it's not perfect by any means, but everything is
00:27:36.440
deliberately chosen. And you'll see me flow from focus to power, uh, to kindness and all the other
00:27:43.420
charisma styles you'll in the, in the real superstars, whether it's Oprah or whether it's Clinton,
00:27:49.260
you will see them flow from one style of charisma to another. You don't need to do that. If you're,
00:27:55.120
if you're not paid to present for a living. Okay. I just had a question and it just slipped my mind.
00:28:02.100
Okay. Well, so yeah, here's the question. Okay. So I know a lot of people may be listening to this
00:28:05.480
like, okay, this is great, but they, there's sort of like this ick factor. They're like,
00:28:08.360
cause we were like, we're this culture. We're like, you have to be authentic, right? Like you have to
00:28:12.300
like, whatever, you know, comes out of you naturally, that's what you do. And I think a lot of people
00:28:16.820
there's like, I don't want to do that. It's not authentic. Um, what's your, what's your argument?
00:28:20.560
I love that question. So there's a, there's a couple of answers. I can give you the flippant
00:28:24.360
answer when people tell me, Oh, I don't want to play games. And I always answer, you're playing
00:28:29.940
them anyway. You might as well win. Yeah. The other answer when people say, but isn't that
00:28:34.840
manipulation? I say you are manipulating everyone on a constant basis. Manipulation is simply trying to
00:28:40.760
get people to do a specific thing. And really the only thing that matters is intent. But if we get
00:28:47.420
a bit less flippant, I would, and look at authenticity, I would ask you this, am I being
00:28:52.620
inauthentic right now by speaking English with you? Um, well, no, I would say no. And yet, um,
00:29:02.720
I am choosing to speak a language that is not my native tongue in order for us to be able to
1.00
00:29:08.680
better. And in the very same way, charisma is a tool like any other to enable you to communicate
00:29:20.680
better. Again, it's back to, it's all about what you use it for. And so charisma is a tool in the
00:29:27.400
same sense that if a plumber comes to fix a leak, is he better off with having one single tool or is
00:29:32.840
he better off with having 16 of them? You need multiple tools. Exactly. So that's the way I view
00:29:39.180
charisma. So I'm fortunate enough that I speak several languages and I don't have an inner
00:29:44.140
philosophical debate before switching languages as to, you know, am I really staying close to my
00:29:49.340
authentic nature here? Um, even though I'm going to speak a language that's not my own, same with
00:29:54.820
charisma. Okay. Okay. Here's the question. So you mentioned, uh, some of the charisma styles
00:29:59.280
didn't make into your book because they weren't really business related. What were some of those?
00:30:02.820
And they were a little indecent, you said. Yeah. Well, obviously the seductive charisma and that's
00:30:06.800
where, uh, the, the whole, um, I guess, underworld of the PUA's or PUA's comes along. And what's,
00:30:15.540
what's, what's been hilarious for me is that for whatever reason, uh, they and I tended to get
00:30:20.800
along very well. And some of my closest friends were, um, characters, uh, real life characters in,
00:30:26.200
in Neil Strauss's book, the game. So superstar charisma is one that you can absolutely learn.
00:30:33.520
And I, I don't know if you offer those kinds of programs, but I know that the guys at the art of
00:30:38.380
charm do, I know that there's, there's a couple of really good programs, um, to learn seductive
00:30:43.820
charisma. So like, are they like some of the stuff that they like put out there, like the,
00:30:48.060
the, the PUA community, some of it just seems like, okay, this is sort of like woo woo stuff,
00:30:52.140
but is it actually, are they? Yeah, some of it is complete horse shit. And a lot of the good stuff
00:30:56.360
is really plagiarizing, uh, Cialdini's work. Robert Cialdini is kind of the, uh, you know,
00:31:02.620
the, the, the granddad of this entire field of influence. And so a lot of the more credible stuff
00:31:09.040
is plagiarizing Cialdini, uh, without obviously giving attribution. Uh, but that said, um, there are
00:31:15.520
some of those programs that package extremely neatly. And I saw Neil, um, I, I flew down,
00:31:22.660
Neil gives seminars for what, what is called, I think the society. Um, right. And I, and I flew
00:31:28.540
down to, uh, to speak at one of his seminars. And so I, I saw the rest of it and his neuroscience is
00:31:33.700
right on target. And he's obviously focused on seductive charisma, seduction charisma. Um, and if
00:31:40.180
you look at someone like him, it's, um, it's really solid and it works. Interesting. It's like
00:31:45.280
what sort of charisma, um, I guess the three pillars when you're trying to do seductive
00:31:50.100
charisma, would you focus on? All three, all three. Sorry. Yeah. All three. Okay. Um,
00:31:55.540
Neil might tell you that you start, you focus more on confidence, but the real answer actually,
00:32:00.900
to tell you the truth is it depends where you're starting from. If you, if you already are emanating
00:32:06.640
so much confidence that you come across as borderline insufferable, um, you're, you are
00:32:11.200
genuinely, uh, going to turn off a lot of people. Cocky funny only goes so far. Yeah. That's the
00:32:17.600
common, the common trope, right? Like you gotta be cocky funny. Yeah. And it'll work for the first
00:32:21.820
five minutes. But, uh, if, if you try cocky funny on, on me, I'll enjoy it for, I don't know,
00:32:28.120
five, 10 minutes. And then I'm like, all right, you actually have depth there. Cause if you don't,
00:32:31.720
I'm out. So you, it, you really have to have the ability to show all three. Okay. So what,
00:32:39.080
what is seductive, um, charisma look like? I mean, I kind of get warmth or, you know,
00:32:45.040
sort of authoritative charisma. I understand what, what would that, what would seductive
00:32:48.020
charisma look like? Uh, seductive charisma is more felt than it is, um, seen. So let's distinguish
00:32:56.840
between two superstar charisma. Think Marilyn Monroe, Marilyn Monroe could turn that charisma
1.00
00:33:04.260
on. And I, my book starts with a story about that, where she could consciously turn on her
00:33:10.180
superstar charisma and the world stopped around her. That's a charisma that's visible at 10 paces.
1.00
00:33:15.940
Seduction charisma is really all about your target. If you are able to, uh, make your target feel
00:33:24.120
attracted to you. If you're able to create that slight over otherworldly feel that the two of you
00:33:29.180
are in your little universe and that she, she, or he is completely enraptured by you,
00:33:34.000
that's seduction charisma. It's less about what it looks like and more about how it feels
00:33:38.600
to the target. Got you. Yeah. I read a book not too long ago called swoon, um, about like lady killers,
0.96
00:33:46.440
basically. Yeah. And one of them kind of surprising was like Lord Byron. Well, you know,
00:33:50.500
everyone knows Lord Byron was, uh, a womanizer, but like the thing was like, he wasn't a very
00:33:55.420
attractive guy. Like he had a, no, really not like, but he was still able to like these women
00:34:00.440
just flock to him. You know, they just, they wanted to be near him. So he had seductive
00:34:04.900
charisma. He very much had. Yes. Okay. Yes. And again, the, the type of, of, uh, seductive
00:34:12.300
charisma will really need to be tailored to, uh, your target. And so let's, let's talk about
00:34:20.940
Neil's book, the game. Uh, there's, there's a lot of criticism about all the elements that
00:34:26.720
the book is missing. And yes, there are a lot, but keep in mind that, uh, if I remember correctly,
00:34:30.800
the book originally was 700 pages. So he had to cut a hell of a lot. Um, every target will need
00:34:38.940
a tiny variation or actually a huge variation. If you're looking specifically at, at, um,
00:34:44.500
creating seduction charisma. And if you want, if, if you were trying to seduce me or if you're
00:34:50.000
trying to seduce another woman, we would react to completely different elements. And for some
00:34:55.460
women, because of genetics, upbringing, culture, personality, whatever, let's say that one of
1.00
00:35:01.840
them will love. So for them go cocky, funny all the way and actually go the whole, you know,
00:35:07.260
the go the whole negging route, et cetera, and that'll work for others. They're going to want
00:35:12.040
to see what level of self-awareness you have, what, what depth can you go to? And if you can't
00:35:17.460
show that you've lost them and there's no way you can get them back. So yeah, keep in mind that it's
00:35:23.960
incredibly individual. And the other thing that I know Neil couldn't talk about, um, in the book and
00:35:29.500
simply for lack of space, but which is absolutely critical is social class. So that's kind of a taboo
00:35:36.760
subject in this country. Um, but social class and social class is not money, but really what are
00:35:44.620
the straight of the strata of social class that actually will, will greatly affect your ability
00:35:50.900
to take a girl home. If that's what you're looking for.
1.00
00:35:53.860
Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've been reading, I'm actually working on a series about, um, men in status.
00:35:59.260
Oh, excellent. Um, and it's surprising. Like some of the research is really surprising. That's out
00:36:04.080
there. Um, it's kind of, kind of intuitive. And yeah, I think one of the problem, what I see with
00:36:07.900
like the, the whole PUA community, like I understand there's guys that like, they need
00:36:11.900
that. They're just like, they're not, they're awkward. They need that. And I feel like a lot
00:36:15.220
of times they just use it as sort of like a, a one size fits all. Like they just, okay, take this and
00:36:19.580
I'm going to take the same approach with every woman. And then it doesn't work. You're like,
1.00
00:36:25.620
It's a great starting point. It's a great confidence booster. Cause you know, just the
00:36:29.920
relief that you can learn this stuff and knowing that there is a system. So it's a great starting
00:36:34.800
point, but then there are going to be so many individual pitfalls. Um, and I'm glad that you're
00:36:41.120
looking at, at, um, at status. Are you going to write a piece about status and social class?
00:36:46.520
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's, that's kind of where I'm going at it. And it's just, um, I mean,
00:36:50.560
the thing I'm going at is how status affects men differently than women. That's one of the key
0.97
00:36:55.540
components because one thing I found is that, uh, like status defeat or rejection,
00:37:00.640
Oh, lights up the amygdala. Like, yeah, it meant it like, it's like their cortisol level spike more
00:37:06.740
than women. Um, it shortens your life. You age faster, you die sooner and you have a less happy
1.00
00:37:13.240
life. Yeah. And kind of the angle I'm going at with it is that, um, today, I mean, like men, um,
00:37:19.460
face constant status defeat because like, we're so connected, right? You're not only just competing
00:37:24.400
against like the guy in your town or the neighbor, you're competing with like everyone on like the
00:37:29.140
rich kids of Instagram, like all the, the bro dudes have blogs that are traveling over the world.
00:37:33.760
And like, you know, that's who you're competing against now. Yeah. It's really, really hard in
00:37:37.840
the same way. You can make the parallel, uh, for women who are facing similar status defeat with,
0.98
00:37:44.380
uh, with impossible physical, uh, beauty standards. Right. And, and you look at the death rate
0.85
00:37:50.360
amongst teenager, um, eating disorders amongst women is, is the leading cause of death amongst,
00:37:56.320
um, American teenagers. It's, it's female teenagers. It is. So, um, the other thing to look at with,
0.98
00:38:04.280
with status is, um, um, you have a couple of people who have Tim Ferriss is one, uh, Leo Babauta who runs,
00:38:11.480
uh, Zen Habits is another who advocates a media diet and just for your own mental health, for your own
00:38:18.280
confidence, for your own charisma, frankly. Um, it's an incredibly healthy thing to do.
00:38:23.960
Yeah. We, uh, we had just read a post about taking tech Sabbaths, you know, once a week,
00:38:28.440
just turn everything off and get outside, reset the brain. Yeah. All right. So, um,
00:38:35.400
can knowing about charisma, like inoculate you from the seductive charms of charismatic people
00:38:39.600
or is resistance futile? Um, again, I think it'll depend on what kind of charisma. Um,
00:38:46.680
there are certain levels, Clinton, apparently I, uh, I'll always remember this, uh, old Republican
00:38:53.840
who'd met Clinton who told me, Bill Clinton, I hated him before I met him. I hated him after I
00:39:00.240
met him, but while I met him, man, I love the man. So that's Clinton. Resistance is futile. Um,
00:39:07.640
I think that it's more, uh, a perception of inauthenticity, um, or manipulation for a negative
00:39:16.060
purpose that will, um, that will kind of kill a charismatic effect. Knowing about it can let
00:39:25.720
you see the, the undersides. So, uh, for example, women who have read the game or who've taken,
0.81
00:39:31.760
um, seminars or who know that literature, you'll have a hard time using the same opening lines on
00:39:38.180
them or the exact same routines on them because of course they know about them. Um, so I'd say in a
00:39:43.860
sense a little bit for most forms of charisma, but there are some that will just overpower your
00:39:49.860
brain. Nothing you do about it. Okay. All right. So I wish we could talk more, but I know you have
00:39:54.440
to go. Um, where can people find out more about your work? Oh, that's easy. Askolivia.com. Like
00:40:01.340
asking a question. That's an awesome, awesome domain name. Askolivia.com. Well, great. Well,
00:40:06.020
Olivia Fox, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure. It's a pleasure. I'll talk to you
00:40:09.880
soon, Brett. Thank you. Take care. Our guest today was Olivia Fox. She is the author of the book,
00:40:14.320
the charisma myth, how anyone can master the art and science of personal magnetism. And you can find
00:40:18.880
that on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. And you can also find more about her work at
00:40:23.900
askolivia.com. Well, that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips
00:40:31.960
and advice. Make sure to check out the art of manliness website at art of manliness.com. And if you
00:40:36.580
enjoy the podcast and you're getting something out of it, I'd really appreciate it. If you go to
00:40:40.200
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00:40:45.180
that will help us out a lot. So until next time, stay manly.