#72： The Charisma Myth With Olivia Fox
Episode Stats
Summary
Olivia Fox, author of The Charisma Myth, argues that the idea that charisma is some sort of magical, innate thing you're born with is a myth. In our discussion day, Brett and Olivia discuss what it means to be a charismatic person and how you can use that to improve your business and love life.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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Now we've written about some really famous and great men on the site and a lot of them
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have one thing in common. They were charismatic. Napoleon, Theodore Roosevelt, Alexander the
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Great, Socrates, Jesus, they all had charisma in spades. People wanted to be near them because
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they gave off some sort of aura that made people feel good about themselves. Is this charisma,
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this ability, is it innate or is it something you're born with or is it something you can develop
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intentionally? Well, our guest today has written a book and said that the whole idea that charisma
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is some sort of magical innate thing you're born with is a myth. Her name is Olivia Fox and she is
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the author of the book, The Charisma Myth, How Anyone Can Master the Art and Science of Personal
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Magnetism. In our discussion day, Olivia and I discuss what it means to be charismatic. What
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are the things, the attributes need to be a charismatic person? How you can use that to
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improve your business life, your love life? It's a really fascinating discussion. I think
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you're going to get a lot out of it. So stay tuned.
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Okay. So you are a charisma expert. That's what it says on your webpage. How does one become
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a charisma expert? Because I thought it was just sort of like, that's like being an expert
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in alchemy or something like that. So how did this happen?
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I had personal desperation, which is often a great motivator. I was very much socially awkward.
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Actually, you could probably say completely socially inept until my late teens. And that
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was a moment at which I realized I had two choices. Either I exiled myself to a desert
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island, which is still an attractive option on occasion, or I learned how to make this whole
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There, so just out of need. You were an awkward, awkward teenager.
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I was, yes. And in many respects, I still am a diehard introvert. And the desert island option
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is one that I often long for after an intense, let's say, series of speeches.
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Okay. I understand that feeling. I've had that as well. All right. So your book is called
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The Charisma Myth. So what's The Myth of Charisma?
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The myth essentially sums up the book in one sentence. Charisma is not innate. It can be
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learned. And here's how. And I think that one of the reasons that we assume that charisma
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is innate is because it's a learned behavior that is learned at such a young age that by the
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time we reach adulthood, which is usually when we start observing the charismatic ones,
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it looks as if they've always had it. Whereas in fact, it's a bit like walking. You learn how to
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walk by modeling others' behavior and you fall a lot. And eventually you can do it, well,
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for some people really in their sleep. Charisma is the same way. It just so happens that some people
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started modeling early and others simply didn't.
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Interesting. So it's not innate. Okay. Well, here's a question I have. I'm a parent. How do
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I know if my kid's going to be charismatic? I have a son that's almost four. Can I tell right
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Well, you've got a couple of predictors and the strongest predictor is, are you or is your
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Yeah. And then you can look at how they interact. And we're going to talk about the core components
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of charisma and you can actually start seeing them early on, presence, attentiveness to others,
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self-confidence. But again, because it's something that can be learned, I like to compare it to
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learning how to drive a car. So certain people have certain predispositions towards becoming good
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drivers. And not all of us is going to become a race car driver in the same way that not all of
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us become Bill Clinton. But most of us are able to learn enough to get from point A to point B.
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Okay. When you say predisposition, is that, are you perhaps suggesting there is a genetic component
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Well, I would say a personality component. And looking at the genetic components of personality,
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of course, gets a bit tricky because then you get into not just the nature versus nurture,
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but what are the environments that causes certain genes to express or to not express, et cetera.
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Exactly. But yes, there is a personality component. So being an introvert, I can be charismatic for brief
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periods of time, sometimes for longer periods of time. And I can express certain forms of charisma
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easier than others. For everyone, there's going to be certain styles that come more naturally.
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Okay. Yeah. We're going to get more into those styles. So this is great. So there's like hope for
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people who feel like they're socially awkward. They're not doomed to a life of social awkwardness.
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Absolutely. And in many ways, the introverts have a big advantage because introverts, by definition,
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don't need to be the center of attention. And that makes them fantastic listeners and gives them an
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easier chance to attain the core component of focus.
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Excellent. Okay. So, all right. So we've always thought of charisma as this sort of magical power,
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but you showcase in your book just like tons of research that it's not magical at all.
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Yeah. So how did scientists or psychologists, whatever, how did they research,
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convert charisma from magic to science? How did that happen?
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So that's really interesting. For me, the first mystery was why hasn't it been studied yet? If you
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look at the different varieties of leadership that are studied, you'll find everything from
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transformational leadership to psycho-spiritual, I mean, everything under the sun. And charisma until
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recently really hadn't been studied much. It seemed to be kind of a taboo subject.
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And the best explanation I found is that Peter Drucker, one of the most, possibly the most
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influential business manager, sorry, business thinker and thought leader of the 20th century,
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was vehemently opposed to charisma since he had experienced the Nazi and the fascist regimes
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personally. So there is a theory which would make sense that it wasn't until Drucker's shadow passed
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that people started looking at charisma again. And in terms of how they did that in a lab,
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they were able to raise or lower people's level of charisma as if they were turning a dial
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simply by instructing them to display specific charismatic behaviors.
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Wow. So I mean, what's some of the research that's out there that says, yeah, you can change
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your charisma? I mean, is there a specific, like maybe an experiment that's kind of sort of the
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bulwark or sort of lays the foundation for all this?
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There's not been one experiment. The one that I referenced just now is Howell and Frost's experiment
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in a lab. And this was, that particular one was a combination of self-report, meaning
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what were the ratings of charisma of the same person with charismatic behaviors and with
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non-charismatic behaviors in a lab environment. So this was really a controlled study. But there's
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been a variety of ways from how persuasive the person was, plus how likable the person was,
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plus how impressive the person was. And you can really decompose it into a series of attributes,
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Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that there's all this research now. And because you mentioned that,
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yeah, people didn't like studying or talking about charisma. I love collecting old books and
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books from like the late 19th century and early 20th century, there's like books about animal
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magnetism, how to develop your animal magnetism, which is basically charisma. It's like how you can
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hypnotize people. And it was kind of goofy stuff, but I guess that was sort of an example of early
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It was, yes. And a few authors, what they did is that they portrayed it as a negative.
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So what they were doing is saying, listen, here's how you could develop this dangerous quality that
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is charisma if you wanted to. But of course, you're not such a person, et cetera, et cetera.
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Yeah. Okay. Well, so how can charisma improve your life? Because there's some interesting research
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that you cite in the book that besides just making you more persuasive, but there's some other things
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that just if you're a man, for example, developing charisma can do for you.
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It's pretty extraordinary. Well, let me start with a non-obvious, which is that having a charismatic
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leader raises your stock price, the stock price of a company in terms of, in times of financial
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difficulty compared to a company, an organization with a non-charismatic leader. There's other examples
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of the persuasiveness, how fast you advance in your career. But of course, let's get down to the subject
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that you're probably talking about, which is, does it make you more attractive to whichever gender
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you're trying to attract? Yes, of course. That's probably the number one X factor that dominates
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all others, particularly if you're seeking to attract women who tend to be in the sexual and
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romantic context more susceptible to charisma than men.
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Interesting. And there's been studies that show that it can actually make you look taller.
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Oh, taller, better looking, more intelligent, and richer.
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Amazing. Well, I'm curious about that bit about companies that do well with a charismatic leader.
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I mean, couldn't that actually nip, you know, bite him in the butt? Because you can just have like a
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charismatic leader, but the guy is doing nothing for the company, right?
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Yeah. Charisma is a big problem in the sense that it's like any other tool. A knife can be used to
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heal or to hurt in the hands of a criminal or in the hands of a surgeon. It's the same tool. It's a
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knife. The very same with charisma. Let's say that you've got a save the world organization,
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having a charismatic leader at the helm of that can be a tremendous benefit to the world.
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Yeah. Yeah. I think, who was it that wrote Good to Great? Who's that guy?
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Yeah. He doesn't like charisma. He's like the drugger. He's like, you know,
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boring guys do better for the company in the long run.
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Yeah. And he might be right because charisma really lets you get away with a lot because it makes people
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And that could be a good thing. So like an example of a CEO who had lots of charisma
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Obviously, yes. He would be one of our paragons of charisma. But again,
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what's really interesting is that for Jobs, his charisma was 100% learned. And I don't think it's
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up anymore, but I used to have on my blog a analysis of Jobs learning charisma from 84 to 2011
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with a point-by-point example with each of the videos where you can see him progressively
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learning each of the charisma components. And of course, with the 2011 version, when you compare
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directly with the 1994, it's hard to believe it's the same guy.
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Wow. All right. So there's hope for everyone then.
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Okay. Great. So let's get in sort of the nitty gritty because I'm sure everyone's like listening.
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Okay. Oh, yeah. This is great. I want to be more charismatic. How do I do it? So you argue that
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there are three pillars of charisma. We've actually written about this on our website. Your book
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So what are those three pillars for the folks who haven't read that post or have seen your book?
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Well, shame on them. And I think they should go to both your and my website to catch up on that.
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Presence, power, and warmth. So what they mean, if you think about someone describing their experience
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with a highly charismatic person, you'll often hear them talk about what an incredible presence
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that person has, whoever it is from Condi Rice to Bill Clinton. And what presence is, is literally
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the ability to stay present moment by moment with whatever is happening and not let your mind wander.
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And the reason this is so critical is that if you've ever been in a conversation where only half
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your mind is present and the other half is thinking about something else, there's a high chance that
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your eyes will glaze over and your reactions will be a split second delayed. And people will catch that
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on a subconscious level. And it will give them, it's called an incongruence in technical terms,
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and it will give them the feeling that something's not quite right. So lack of presence, not being fully
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present in the conversation, in the interaction, presence is kind of the foundation. If you don't have that,
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everything else falls apart. So then there's power and warmth.
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Yeah. So power, I want to really clarify that power is not actual physical power. It's not the
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power to command an army. It doesn't relate to the actual power you wield, rather the perception
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that we get of your ability to impact the world around you. And there are a variety of signals that we
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look to, to get that. And of course, all the, um, accoutrement, you know, I'm French is my native
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language. So I'll always have trouble saying French words with an American accent, but all the little
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signals around a person that can symbolize, um, power and status, social status, a lot of intelligence,
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whatever it might be. But the biggest determinant is the perceived level of self-confidence. And the
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reason for that is that it's a heuristic, like many other things, our brain uses a shortcut to
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determine power. And if you project self-confidence, the brain will, the other person will assume that
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you actually have something to be confident about. Gotcha. So, I mean, I thought it was,
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what I was struck by though, about power and we wrote about it, I surprisingly got a lot of pushback on
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it. Uh, cause like, Oh, well, it's just like, people are like, Oh, you know, this is, if you display, if
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you're trying to like display power, you're like, you're trying to be like a douchebag. You're trying to be
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domineering. It just, I was kind of surprised that people were kind of uncomfortable displaying power.
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Well, let me put it this way. A lot of people are uncomfortable with the idea of trying to display
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power or confidence and then being found out to the fact that they actually don't have any. And so
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you'll get a lot of pushback about that. But just to be clear, there's a difference between confidence
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and arrogance. And I'm, I'm very clear that what you want to focus is the confidence. What you want
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to display is the confidence, not the arrogance. And, uh, um, the difference really will show up in
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minute areas in your body language. So let's say that you're, if your head is tilted up too far,
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uh, there's a chance that you will come across as the classic expression, looking down your nose at
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someone comes from the fact that when we are contemptuous, we really do, uh, lift up our noses
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as if the other person stinks. So, um, so yeah, if you, and if you, I'm always delighted to, um, to talk
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about whatever pushback you get. So if you have any specific areas, that was the one. And
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I think a lot of it was with, um, cause I tried to explain like, yeah, it's not, you're not trying
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to be domineering. It's just showing you have confidence. Um, but I think people just, when
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they see power, oh, you gotta show display power. Uh, there's, I think often negative connotations
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with that. And they kind of read into stuff that wasn't there, which I think is, is kind
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of interesting. I mean, that's one of the interesting things with a blog people, the comments usually
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say more about the person than like the confidence. So power. So besides what's like, I guess you
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talked about some like specific things you can do to increase your, I guess, present
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or display of power that are sort of subtle. Um, what are some of those things that guys
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I think that one of the most important ones, and here's a good example, Brett, right now
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I can hear you typing on the keyboard, which immediately gives me the, uh, my computer froze.
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There you go. Uh, gives the, and remember perception is reality. It doesn't matter what
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reality is, right? So of course, reality is that your computer frozen, you need to get
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it back on frozen for a variety of excellent reasons, but the perception is going to be,
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There you go. Um, I think the fastest way for guys is to get comfortable with what's called
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expansive poses. And there's, there's an example in the book. And I think you put it on the website
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where, um, you learn how to kind of position yourself like a, like a big gorilla or like an
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army general and really try to take up as much physical space as you can. And that will actually
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affect your biochemistry. Um, but the other thing that I don't think I was able to put in the book
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and that I will often recommend to, to guys I'm coaching is, um, take martial arts and take a real
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martial art. And I know I'm going to piss some people off, but don't go for a sissy sport like
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karate. Um, go for Brazilian jujitsu, MMA, judo, wrestling, go for a full contact sport. And the
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reason is not only do you really learn focus and how to inhabit the space, but there's knowing that
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you could take down whoever it is that you're in front of really gives you a background, uh,
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um, un-intimidability, if that makes sense. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, actually we, we had a,
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we have a guest post coming up, a guy who started a fight club in his garage and he works in sales.
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And, um, he says like, it's helped him. Like when he gives a presentation, I just have a little bit
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more confidence. And he's like, he's not, he's not like a, a bro. Like he got his MMA and in writing
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from Notre Dame. Um, he's a really smart guy and he's, he's, he beats the crap out of him,
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out of his friends in his garage, like once a week. And it's helped his career.
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It'll help you in a lot of ways. And the other thing that's fun is that I've never met as nice
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and calm people as I have, uh, on the fighting mat. It's, it's remarkable in the way that one,
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you get to work out any aggression that you have, um, on the tatami or in whichever, um, art that
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you're practicing. And two, the really mean guys often get weeded out. The other thing that I would
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very much recommend, and this will, this one hits, uh, all three areas of presence, power,
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and warmth is improv. And many, many cities have, uh, classes of improv theater. Let's be clear,
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not improv comedy, improv theater. And improv really teaches you to think on your feet,
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um, and be comfortable improvising, obviously. And it can, that one can make a gigantic difference
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to your social confidence. Very cool. You know, you talked about kind of taking up more space as
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a way to display power. I remember like this very distinctly when I was a kid, my dad, when he'd have
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employees come over to our house for like, you know, a barbecue or a grill, like I remember like
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he would like, when he'd sit on the recliner, like he would like drape a leg over. Exactly. And like,
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I remember like a kid, I was like, that's pretty goofy. But then now I'm like, that's just like,
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it was like total power display by my, by my dad. That's an alpha male signaling. Yeah. Okay. My
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dad, my dad was an alpha male. That's cool. Okay. Doesn't that feel good? Yeah. Uh, yeah. And the
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third recommendation that I, that I would give, if you really want to take charisma to the next level,
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uh, take tango. And the reason that I specifically recommend tango is that it's one of the few truly
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improvisational partner dance that also, um, has, I mean, capoeira obviously is, is both a, a fighting
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art and a dance that, that is improvisational, but it doesn't have that contact. It doesn't have that
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dialogue, um, that close that tango will give you. And so, uh, since conversation, any interaction
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really is a dance. It's a conversation. There is, there is a choreography in learning
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improvisational choreography in the partner space can make you a whole lot more powerful
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in that realm. Interesting. Yeah. So yeah, I, I, I actually took dance lessons with my wife,
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uh, and we did tango and yeah. And it was, it was really cool to kind of, you know, you use your body
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to like, just sort of subtly, you know, guide your partner to like where you want them to go.
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Yeah. You communicate. Yeah. Okay. Well, so we talked about presence. We talked about warmth or not
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warmth, talk about power. So like what warmth, like what is, what do you mean by that? Just
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kind, gentle. Yeah. Warmth is really simply giving people the impression that you have goodwill towards
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them. And it does go back to evolutionary roots. Someone who both has the power to affect our world
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and things kindly of us, uh, is a really valuable asset. So that's someone that we really want to pay
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attention to focus on, uh, cultivate as a, as a contact and warmth is evaluated 100% through body
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language and behavior. There, there's going to be no status symbols. Uh, there's the clothing that you
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wear, uh, will be much, really won't play any part. What we look at, um, is not the face in general,
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but more specifically the eyes and the voice. Those are the two biggest markers of warmth.
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So you can't, it's hard to fake warmth. Yeah. And, and, uh, warmth is indeed because it relies so,
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uh, thoroughly on body language and because there's far too many body language signals that we send out
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every minute for us to fake it good, uh, coherently. Warmth is one of those things that you can't fake.
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Now that said, you can placebo effect your way into a warmth mindset that will then translate
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into your, uh, your body language and behavior. Okay. Gotcha. So do you need all three to be
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charismatic or can you, yeah, you do. Yep. And the only thing that changes is what kind of charisma
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you'll get depending on which of the three is most prevalent, but you absolutely need all three and
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you, you can't do without any of them. All right. So yeah, that leads us to our next question. So what are
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these types of charisma you talk about? So let's be clear that it's broken down to four charisma
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styles in the book because Penguin insisted that it be broken down. Yeah. I know how that goes
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writing a book, right? Yeah. Um, there's, there's no really four categories. Uh, obviously there's
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every charisma is more complex than that. And it's going to be mixing between the styles. It's,
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you can flow from one style to the other, but they're, they're good groupings. Uh, and also there
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are a couple of styles of that. I couldn't put in the book simply for decency levels.
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And also because I'm focused on the business world. Um, but let's say that you have highest
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levels of presence. What you'll get is focused charisma. And if you know, Elon Musk, the founder
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of Tesla, SpaceX, et cetera, uh, Elon is, is very, very focused charisma, um, capable. And he can
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really turn that particular kind of charisma on at will. Um, if you think of jobs, which is of course
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what too many people seek to emulate, you're looking at visionary charisma. Let's say that,
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uh, with you of the three power confidence is the highest of the, of the three levels, you'd be
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looking at authority charisma and, um, Colin Powell is a great example of that. And last but not
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least, uh, if warmth is the highest, you can have the, um, the effect that both the Dalai Lama and
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Clinton have, they both rely primarily on warmth. Gotcha. But they still have those other elements
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though. Like power. And that's kind of surprising. Like the Dalai Lama displays power, right?
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Even though he's the Dalai Lama. Come on, the status. Well, especially because he's the Dalai Lama.
00:25:35.860
Um, there are many other monks who have this. Mathieu Ricard is a good example. Um, I had a delegation,
00:25:41.900
I met a delegation of eight monks recently in the Bay area, um, who are just incredibly cool,
00:25:47.580
who are coming on a, what they call a compassion tour and being in their presence is really being
00:25:53.460
in the, in the presence of pure joy, unconditional kindness and goodwill. It's, it's, it's, uh,
00:26:00.440
it's almost overpowering, but because there isn't this whole status built around them,
00:26:05.800
it's not the same otherworldly effect and reality distortion field as you'll get
00:26:12.760
with a Dalai Lama. Interesting. So these different charismatic styles, I, you kind of mentioned
00:26:19.020
earlier that, um, all of us might be predisposed or be more comfortable with a certain style because
00:26:25.580
of just of our personalities. Yeah. And the rule of thumb is, uh, in situations where the outcome
00:26:30.860
doesn't really matter, try out new styles and, and push out of your comfort zone in a high stakes
00:26:36.780
situation, stick close to home and, and use the tools that you're comfortable with and that you
00:26:41.140
can rely on. Gotcha. So if you're giving like a big pitch, like this is not the time to show that you
00:26:46.920
are the alpha male, you know, you're not going to be a gorilla if you're not naturally a gorilla.
00:26:52.360
If you're not naturally a gorilla, a gorilla, correct. Um, and, and a lot of people have a certain
00:26:58.720
fluency of styles. And also remember this, the whole 10,000 hours really comes into play. So
00:27:06.740
I think you'd mentioned the, the video that's on my website. That's one where it seems so effortless
00:27:16.160
because I could say it backwards in my sleep. I've been giving this presentation on this subject
00:27:22.200
for 10 years. And as a result, every breath is conscious. Every tilt of the head is deliberate.
00:27:30.760
That is the choreography of movement. And obviously it's not perfect by any means, but everything is
00:27:36.440
deliberately chosen. And you'll see me flow from focus to power, uh, to kindness and all the other
00:27:43.420
charisma styles you'll in the, in the real superstars, whether it's Oprah or whether it's Clinton,
00:27:49.260
you will see them flow from one style of charisma to another. You don't need to do that. If you're,
00:27:55.120
if you're not paid to present for a living. Okay. I just had a question and it just slipped my mind.
00:28:02.100
Okay. Well, so yeah, here's the question. Okay. So I know a lot of people may be listening to this
00:28:05.480
like, okay, this is great, but they, there's sort of like this ick factor. They're like,
00:28:08.360
cause we were like, we're this culture. We're like, you have to be authentic, right? Like you have to
00:28:12.300
like, whatever, you know, comes out of you naturally, that's what you do. And I think a lot of people
00:28:16.820
there's like, I don't want to do that. It's not authentic. Um, what's your, what's your argument?
00:28:20.560
I love that question. So there's a, there's a couple of answers. I can give you the flippant
00:28:24.360
answer when people tell me, Oh, I don't want to play games. And I always answer, you're playing
00:28:29.940
them anyway. You might as well win. Yeah. The other answer when people say, but isn't that
00:28:34.840
manipulation? I say you are manipulating everyone on a constant basis. Manipulation is simply trying to
00:28:40.760
get people to do a specific thing. And really the only thing that matters is intent. But if we get
00:28:47.420
a bit less flippant, I would, and look at authenticity, I would ask you this, am I being
00:28:52.620
inauthentic right now by speaking English with you? Um, well, no, I would say no. And yet, um,
00:29:02.720
I am choosing to speak a language that is not my native tongue in order for us to be able to
00:29:08.680
better. And in the very same way, charisma is a tool like any other to enable you to communicate
00:29:20.680
better. Again, it's back to, it's all about what you use it for. And so charisma is a tool in the
00:29:27.400
same sense that if a plumber comes to fix a leak, is he better off with having one single tool or is
00:29:32.840
he better off with having 16 of them? You need multiple tools. Exactly. So that's the way I view
00:29:39.180
charisma. So I'm fortunate enough that I speak several languages and I don't have an inner
00:29:44.140
philosophical debate before switching languages as to, you know, am I really staying close to my
00:29:49.340
authentic nature here? Um, even though I'm going to speak a language that's not my own, same with
00:29:54.820
charisma. Okay. Okay. Here's the question. So you mentioned, uh, some of the charisma styles
00:29:59.280
didn't make into your book because they weren't really business related. What were some of those?
00:30:02.820
And they were a little indecent, you said. Yeah. Well, obviously the seductive charisma and that's
00:30:06.800
where, uh, the, the whole, um, I guess, underworld of the PUA's or PUA's comes along. And what's,
00:30:15.540
what's, what's been hilarious for me is that for whatever reason, uh, they and I tended to get
00:30:20.800
along very well. And some of my closest friends were, um, characters, uh, real life characters in,
00:30:26.200
in Neil Strauss's book, the game. So superstar charisma is one that you can absolutely learn.
00:30:33.520
And I, I don't know if you offer those kinds of programs, but I know that the guys at the art of
00:30:38.380
charm do, I know that there's, there's a couple of really good programs, um, to learn seductive
00:30:43.820
charisma. So like, are they like some of the stuff that they like put out there, like the,
00:30:48.060
the, the PUA community, some of it just seems like, okay, this is sort of like woo woo stuff,
00:30:52.140
but is it actually, are they? Yeah, some of it is complete horse shit. And a lot of the good stuff
00:30:56.360
is really plagiarizing, uh, Cialdini's work. Robert Cialdini is kind of the, uh, you know,
00:31:02.620
the, the, the granddad of this entire field of influence. And so a lot of the more credible stuff
00:31:09.040
is plagiarizing Cialdini, uh, without obviously giving attribution. Uh, but that said, um, there are
00:31:15.520
some of those programs that package extremely neatly. And I saw Neil, um, I, I flew down,
00:31:22.660
Neil gives seminars for what, what is called, I think the society. Um, right. And I, and I flew
00:31:28.540
down to, uh, to speak at one of his seminars. And so I, I saw the rest of it and his neuroscience is
00:31:33.700
right on target. And he's obviously focused on seductive charisma, seduction charisma. Um, and if
00:31:40.180
you look at someone like him, it's, um, it's really solid and it works. Interesting. It's like
00:31:45.280
what sort of charisma, um, I guess the three pillars when you're trying to do seductive
00:31:50.100
charisma, would you focus on? All three, all three. Sorry. Yeah. All three. Okay. Um,
00:31:55.540
Neil might tell you that you start, you focus more on confidence, but the real answer actually,
00:32:00.900
to tell you the truth is it depends where you're starting from. If you, if you already are emanating
00:32:06.640
so much confidence that you come across as borderline insufferable, um, you're, you are
00:32:11.200
genuinely, uh, going to turn off a lot of people. Cocky funny only goes so far. Yeah. That's the
00:32:17.600
common, the common trope, right? Like you gotta be cocky funny. Yeah. And it'll work for the first
00:32:21.820
five minutes. But, uh, if, if you try cocky funny on, on me, I'll enjoy it for, I don't know,
00:32:28.120
five, 10 minutes. And then I'm like, all right, you actually have depth there. Cause if you don't,
00:32:31.720
I'm out. So you, it, you really have to have the ability to show all three. Okay. So what,
00:32:39.080
what is seductive, um, charisma look like? I mean, I kind of get warmth or, you know,
00:32:45.040
sort of authoritative charisma. I understand what, what would that, what would seductive
00:32:48.020
charisma look like? Uh, seductive charisma is more felt than it is, um, seen. So let's distinguish
00:32:56.840
between two superstar charisma. Think Marilyn Monroe, Marilyn Monroe could turn that charisma
00:33:04.260
on. And I, my book starts with a story about that, where she could consciously turn on her
00:33:10.180
superstar charisma and the world stopped around her. That's a charisma that's visible at 10 paces.
00:33:15.940
Seduction charisma is really all about your target. If you are able to, uh, make your target feel
00:33:24.120
attracted to you. If you're able to create that slight over otherworldly feel that the two of you
00:33:29.180
are in your little universe and that she, she, or he is completely enraptured by you,
00:33:34.000
that's seduction charisma. It's less about what it looks like and more about how it feels
00:33:38.600
to the target. Got you. Yeah. I read a book not too long ago called swoon, um, about like lady killers,
00:33:46.440
basically. Yeah. And one of them kind of surprising was like Lord Byron. Well, you know,
00:33:50.500
everyone knows Lord Byron was, uh, a womanizer, but like the thing was like, he wasn't a very
00:33:55.420
attractive guy. Like he had a, no, really not like, but he was still able to like these women
00:34:00.440
just flock to him. You know, they just, they wanted to be near him. So he had seductive
00:34:04.900
charisma. He very much had. Yes. Okay. Yes. And again, the, the type of, of, uh, seductive
00:34:12.300
charisma will really need to be tailored to, uh, your target. And so let's, let's talk about
00:34:20.940
Neil's book, the game. Uh, there's, there's a lot of criticism about all the elements that
00:34:26.720
the book is missing. And yes, there are a lot, but keep in mind that, uh, if I remember correctly,
00:34:30.800
the book originally was 700 pages. So he had to cut a hell of a lot. Um, every target will need
00:34:38.940
a tiny variation or actually a huge variation. If you're looking specifically at, at, um,
00:34:44.500
creating seduction charisma. And if you want, if, if you were trying to seduce me or if you're
00:34:50.000
trying to seduce another woman, we would react to completely different elements. And for some
00:34:55.460
women, because of genetics, upbringing, culture, personality, whatever, let's say that one of
00:35:01.840
them will love. So for them go cocky, funny all the way and actually go the whole, you know,
00:35:07.260
the go the whole negging route, et cetera, and that'll work for others. They're going to want
00:35:12.040
to see what level of self-awareness you have, what, what depth can you go to? And if you can't
00:35:17.460
show that you've lost them and there's no way you can get them back. So yeah, keep in mind that it's
00:35:23.960
incredibly individual. And the other thing that I know Neil couldn't talk about, um, in the book and
00:35:29.500
simply for lack of space, but which is absolutely critical is social class. So that's kind of a taboo
00:35:36.760
subject in this country. Um, but social class and social class is not money, but really what are
00:35:44.620
the straight of the strata of social class that actually will, will greatly affect your ability
00:35:50.900
to take a girl home. If that's what you're looking for.
00:35:53.860
Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've been reading, I'm actually working on a series about, um, men in status.
00:35:59.260
Oh, excellent. Um, and it's surprising. Like some of the research is really surprising. That's out
00:36:04.080
there. Um, it's kind of, kind of intuitive. And yeah, I think one of the problem, what I see with
00:36:07.900
like the, the whole PUA community, like I understand there's guys that like, they need
00:36:11.900
that. They're just like, they're not, they're awkward. They need that. And I feel like a lot
00:36:15.220
of times they just use it as sort of like a, a one size fits all. Like they just, okay, take this and
00:36:19.580
I'm going to take the same approach with every woman. And then it doesn't work. You're like,
00:36:25.620
It's a great starting point. It's a great confidence booster. Cause you know, just the
00:36:29.920
relief that you can learn this stuff and knowing that there is a system. So it's a great starting
00:36:34.800
point, but then there are going to be so many individual pitfalls. Um, and I'm glad that you're
00:36:41.120
looking at, at, um, at status. Are you going to write a piece about status and social class?
00:36:46.520
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's, that's kind of where I'm going at it. And it's just, um, I mean,
00:36:50.560
the thing I'm going at is how status affects men differently than women. That's one of the key
00:36:55.540
components because one thing I found is that, uh, like status defeat or rejection,
00:37:00.640
Oh, lights up the amygdala. Like, yeah, it meant it like, it's like their cortisol level spike more
00:37:06.740
than women. Um, it shortens your life. You age faster, you die sooner and you have a less happy
00:37:13.240
life. Yeah. And kind of the angle I'm going at with it is that, um, today, I mean, like men, um,
00:37:19.460
face constant status defeat because like, we're so connected, right? You're not only just competing
00:37:24.400
against like the guy in your town or the neighbor, you're competing with like everyone on like the
00:37:29.140
rich kids of Instagram, like all the, the bro dudes have blogs that are traveling over the world.
00:37:33.760
And like, you know, that's who you're competing against now. Yeah. It's really, really hard in
00:37:37.840
the same way. You can make the parallel, uh, for women who are facing similar status defeat with,
00:37:44.380
uh, with impossible physical, uh, beauty standards. Right. And, and you look at the death rate
00:37:50.360
amongst teenager, um, eating disorders amongst women is, is the leading cause of death amongst,
00:37:56.320
um, American teenagers. It's, it's female teenagers. It is. So, um, the other thing to look at with,
00:38:04.280
with status is, um, um, you have a couple of people who have Tim Ferriss is one, uh, Leo Babauta who runs,
00:38:11.480
uh, Zen Habits is another who advocates a media diet and just for your own mental health, for your own
00:38:18.280
confidence, for your own charisma, frankly. Um, it's an incredibly healthy thing to do.
00:38:23.960
Yeah. We, uh, we had just read a post about taking tech Sabbaths, you know, once a week,
00:38:28.440
just turn everything off and get outside, reset the brain. Yeah. All right. So, um,
00:38:35.400
can knowing about charisma, like inoculate you from the seductive charms of charismatic people
00:38:39.600
or is resistance futile? Um, again, I think it'll depend on what kind of charisma. Um,
00:38:46.680
there are certain levels, Clinton, apparently I, uh, I'll always remember this, uh, old Republican
00:38:53.840
who'd met Clinton who told me, Bill Clinton, I hated him before I met him. I hated him after I
00:39:00.240
met him, but while I met him, man, I love the man. So that's Clinton. Resistance is futile. Um,
00:39:07.640
I think that it's more, uh, a perception of inauthenticity, um, or manipulation for a negative
00:39:16.060
purpose that will, um, that will kind of kill a charismatic effect. Knowing about it can let
00:39:25.720
you see the, the undersides. So, uh, for example, women who have read the game or who've taken,
00:39:31.760
um, seminars or who know that literature, you'll have a hard time using the same opening lines on
00:39:38.180
them or the exact same routines on them because of course they know about them. Um, so I'd say in a
00:39:43.860
sense a little bit for most forms of charisma, but there are some that will just overpower your
00:39:49.860
brain. Nothing you do about it. Okay. All right. So I wish we could talk more, but I know you have
00:39:54.440
to go. Um, where can people find out more about your work? Oh, that's easy. Askolivia.com. Like
00:40:01.340
asking a question. That's an awesome, awesome domain name. Askolivia.com. Well, great. Well,
00:40:06.020
Olivia Fox, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure. It's a pleasure. I'll talk to you
00:40:09.880
soon, Brett. Thank you. Take care. Our guest today was Olivia Fox. She is the author of the book,
00:40:14.320
the charisma myth, how anyone can master the art and science of personal magnetism. And you can find
00:40:18.880
that on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. And you can also find more about her work at
00:40:23.900
askolivia.com. Well, that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips
00:40:31.960
and advice. Make sure to check out the art of manliness website at art of manliness.com. And if you
00:40:36.580
enjoy the podcast and you're getting something out of it, I'd really appreciate it. If you go to
00:40:40.200
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00:40:45.180
that will help us out a lot. So until next time, stay manly.