The Art of Manliness - #72： The Charisma Myth With Olivia Fox

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:18.860 Now we've written about some really famous and great men on the site and a lot of them

00:00:23.340 have one thing in common. They were charismatic. Napoleon, Theodore Roosevelt, Alexander the

00:00:30.540 Great, Socrates, Jesus, they all had charisma in spades. People wanted to be near them because

00:00:36.360 they gave off some sort of aura that made people feel good about themselves. Is this charisma,

00:00:42.880 this ability, is it innate or is it something you're born with or is it something you can develop

00:00:47.540 intentionally? Well, our guest today has written a book and said that the whole idea that charisma

00:00:53.320 is some sort of magical innate thing you're born with is a myth. Her name is Olivia Fox and she is

00:00:58.460 the author of the book, The Charisma Myth, How Anyone Can Master the Art and Science of Personal

00:01:02.640 Magnetism. In our discussion day, Olivia and I discuss what it means to be charismatic. What

00:01:07.740 are the things, the attributes need to be a charismatic person? How you can use that to

00:01:12.320 improve your business life, your love life? It's a really fascinating discussion. I think

00:01:16.800 you're going to get a lot out of it. So stay tuned.

00:01:23.320 Olivia Fox, welcome to the show.

00:01:27.960 Hi, Brad. It's a pleasure.

00:01:29.780 Okay. So you are a charisma expert. That's what it says on your webpage. How does one become

00:01:35.680 a charisma expert? Because I thought it was just sort of like, that's like being an expert

00:01:39.300 in alchemy or something like that. So how did this happen?

00:01:44.740 I had personal desperation, which is often a great motivator. I was very much socially awkward.

00:01:51.380 Actually, you could probably say completely socially inept until my late teens. And that

00:01:57.260 was a moment at which I realized I had two choices. Either I exiled myself to a desert

00:02:01.680 island, which is still an attractive option on occasion, or I learned how to make this whole

00:02:06.600 human thing work. And that's where I started.

00:02:10.080 There, so just out of need. You were an awkward, awkward teenager.

00:02:15.700 I was, yes. And in many respects, I still am a diehard introvert. And the desert island option

00:02:26.100 is one that I often long for after an intense, let's say, series of speeches.

00:02:31.440 Okay. I understand that feeling. I've had that as well. All right. So your book is called

00:02:36.400 The Charisma Myth. So what's The Myth of Charisma?

00:02:39.020 The myth essentially sums up the book in one sentence. Charisma is not innate. It can be

00:02:46.260 learned. And here's how. And I think that one of the reasons that we assume that charisma

00:02:51.760 is innate is because it's a learned behavior that is learned at such a young age that by the

00:03:01.080 time we reach adulthood, which is usually when we start observing the charismatic ones,

00:03:06.220 it looks as if they've always had it. Whereas in fact, it's a bit like walking. You learn how to

00:03:12.260 walk by modeling others' behavior and you fall a lot. And eventually you can do it, well,

00:03:18.960 for some people really in their sleep. Charisma is the same way. It just so happens that some people

00:03:23.540 started modeling early and others simply didn't.

00:03:26.600 Interesting. So it's not innate. Okay. Well, here's a question I have. I'm a parent. How do

00:03:31.600 I know if my kid's going to be charismatic? I have a son that's almost four. Can I tell right

00:03:37.700 now if he's going to be next Bill Clinton?

00:03:40.960 Well, you've got a couple of predictors and the strongest predictor is, are you or is your

00:03:47.100 partner charismatic?

00:03:48.740 Okay. I'm not sure about that.

00:03:51.680 Yeah. And then you can look at how they interact. And we're going to talk about the core components

00:03:58.900 of charisma and you can actually start seeing them early on, presence, attentiveness to others,

00:04:05.500 self-confidence. But again, because it's something that can be learned, I like to compare it to

00:04:11.760 learning how to drive a car. So certain people have certain predispositions towards becoming good

00:04:18.580 drivers. And not all of us is going to become a race car driver in the same way that not all of

00:04:24.040 us become Bill Clinton. But most of us are able to learn enough to get from point A to point B.

00:04:29.220 And it really is the same with charisma.

00:04:31.040 Okay. When you say predisposition, is that, are you perhaps suggesting there is a genetic component

00:04:37.860 to it maybe?

00:04:39.220 Well, I would say a personality component. And looking at the genetic components of personality,

00:04:44.540 of course, gets a bit tricky because then you get into not just the nature versus nurture,

00:04:50.000 but what are the environments that causes certain genes to express or to not express, et cetera.

00:04:55.060 Epigenetics, right?

00:04:56.460 Exactly. But yes, there is a personality component. So being an introvert, I can be charismatic for brief

00:05:07.240 periods of time, sometimes for longer periods of time. And I can express certain forms of charisma

00:05:13.660 easier than others. For everyone, there's going to be certain styles that come more naturally.

00:05:19.260 Okay. Yeah. We're going to get more into those styles. So this is great. So there's like hope for

00:05:23.320 people who feel like they're socially awkward. They're not doomed to a life of social awkwardness.

00:05:30.140 Absolutely. And in many ways, the introverts have a big advantage because introverts, by definition,

00:05:36.900 don't need to be the center of attention. And that makes them fantastic listeners and gives them an

00:05:44.060 easier chance to attain the core component of focus.

00:05:48.460 Excellent. Okay. So, all right. So we've always thought of charisma as this sort of magical power,

00:05:54.720 but you showcase in your book just like tons of research that it's not magical at all.

00:06:00.140 Yeah. So how did scientists or psychologists, whatever, how did they research,

00:06:06.220 convert charisma from magic to science? How did that happen?

00:06:09.560 So that's really interesting. For me, the first mystery was why hasn't it been studied yet? If you

00:06:18.040 look at the different varieties of leadership that are studied, you'll find everything from

00:06:24.140 transformational leadership to psycho-spiritual, I mean, everything under the sun. And charisma until

00:06:31.520 recently really hadn't been studied much. It seemed to be kind of a taboo subject.

00:06:36.880 And the best explanation I found is that Peter Drucker, one of the most, possibly the most

00:06:44.660 influential business manager, sorry, business thinker and thought leader of the 20th century,

00:06:53.120 was vehemently opposed to charisma since he had experienced the Nazi and the fascist regimes

00:07:05.860 personally. So there is a theory which would make sense that it wasn't until Drucker's shadow passed

00:07:14.940 that people started looking at charisma again. And in terms of how they did that in a lab,

00:07:22.140 they were able to raise or lower people's level of charisma as if they were turning a dial

00:07:27.920 simply by instructing them to display specific charismatic behaviors.

00:07:33.840 Wow. So I mean, what's some of the research that's out there that says, yeah, you can change

00:07:38.500 your charisma? I mean, is there a specific, like maybe an experiment that's kind of sort of the

00:07:44.120 bulwark or sort of lays the foundation for all this?

00:07:46.840 There's not been one experiment. The one that I referenced just now is Howell and Frost's experiment

00:07:52.900 in a lab. And this was, that particular one was a combination of self-report, meaning

00:07:59.580 what were the ratings of charisma of the same person with charismatic behaviors and with

00:08:09.100 non-charismatic behaviors in a lab environment. So this was really a controlled study. But there's

00:08:14.660 been a variety of ways from how persuasive the person was, plus how likable the person was,

00:08:22.180 plus how impressive the person was. And you can really decompose it into a series of attributes,

00:08:27.780 which put together, give you charisma.

00:08:31.540 Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that there's all this research now. And because you mentioned that,

00:08:35.160 yeah, people didn't like studying or talking about charisma. I love collecting old books and

00:08:41.180 books from like the late 19th century and early 20th century, there's like books about animal

00:08:46.040 magnetism, how to develop your animal magnetism, which is basically charisma. It's like how you can

00:08:51.580 hypnotize people. And it was kind of goofy stuff, but I guess that was sort of an example of early

00:08:56.380 charisma studies.

00:08:58.300 It was, yes. And a few authors, what they did is that they portrayed it as a negative.

00:09:05.360 So what they were doing is saying, listen, here's how you could develop this dangerous quality that

00:09:11.800 is charisma if you wanted to. But of course, you're not such a person, et cetera, et cetera.

00:09:16.060 Yeah. Okay. Well, so how can charisma improve your life? Because there's some interesting research

00:09:20.460 that you cite in the book that besides just making you more persuasive, but there's some other things

00:09:26.040 that just if you're a man, for example, developing charisma can do for you.

00:09:30.980 It's pretty extraordinary. Well, let me start with a non-obvious, which is that having a charismatic

00:09:35.760 leader raises your stock price, the stock price of a company in terms of, in times of financial

00:09:46.600 difficulty compared to a company, an organization with a non-charismatic leader. There's other examples

00:09:54.780 of the persuasiveness, how fast you advance in your career. But of course, let's get down to the subject

00:10:01.480 that you're probably talking about, which is, does it make you more attractive to whichever gender

00:10:06.540 you're trying to attract? Yes, of course. That's probably the number one X factor that dominates

00:10:12.100 all others, particularly if you're seeking to attract women who tend to be in the sexual and

00:10:20.800 romantic context more susceptible to charisma than men.

00:10:24.600 Interesting. And there's been studies that show that it can actually make you look taller.

00:10:28.020 Oh, taller, better looking, more intelligent, and richer.

00:10:34.400 Even if you're not? Yeah.

00:10:37.260 Amazing. Well, I'm curious about that bit about companies that do well with a charismatic leader.

00:10:43.000 I mean, couldn't that actually nip, you know, bite him in the butt? Because you can just have like a 0.98

00:10:48.840 charismatic leader, but the guy is doing nothing for the company, right?

00:10:53.200 Yeah. Charisma is a big problem in the sense that it's like any other tool. A knife can be used to

00:10:58.920 heal or to hurt in the hands of a criminal or in the hands of a surgeon. It's the same tool. It's a

00:11:04.060 knife. The very same with charisma. Let's say that you've got a save the world organization,

00:11:09.560 having a charismatic leader at the helm of that can be a tremendous benefit to the world.

00:11:15.720 Most dictators are incredibly charismatic.

00:11:21.560 Yeah. Yeah. I think, who was it that wrote Good to Great? Who's that guy?

00:11:25.580 Jim Collins.

00:11:26.200 Yeah. He talks about that like...

00:11:28.140 He doesn't like charisma.

00:11:29.360 Yeah. He doesn't like charisma. He's like the drugger. He's like, you know,

00:11:32.380 boring guys do better for the company in the long run.

00:11:35.300 Yeah. And he might be right because charisma really lets you get away with a lot because it makes people

00:11:41.700 want to do whatever you want them to do.

00:11:43.940 And that could be a good thing. So like an example of a CEO who had lots of charisma

00:11:48.340 you talk about is Steve Jobs.

00:11:51.400 Obviously, yes. He would be one of our paragons of charisma. But again,

00:11:54.860 what's really interesting is that for Jobs, his charisma was 100% learned. And I don't think it's

00:12:01.780 up anymore, but I used to have on my blog a analysis of Jobs learning charisma from 84 to 2011

00:12:10.080 with a point-by-point example with each of the videos where you can see him progressively

00:12:17.800 learning each of the charisma components. And of course, with the 2011 version, when you compare

00:12:23.680 directly with the 1994, it's hard to believe it's the same guy.

00:12:27.480 Wow. All right. So there's hope for everyone then.

00:12:29.380 There really is. Yes.

00:12:30.480 Okay. Great. So let's get in sort of the nitty gritty because I'm sure everyone's like listening.

00:12:34.120 Okay. Oh, yeah. This is great. I want to be more charismatic. How do I do it? So you argue that

00:12:39.080 there are three pillars of charisma. We've actually written about this on our website. Your book

00:12:43.160 inspired a series of posts.

00:12:44.960 Oh, I thank you.

00:12:46.120 So what are those three pillars for the folks who haven't read that post or have seen your book?

00:12:52.060 Well, shame on them. And I think they should go to both your and my website to catch up on that.

00:12:57.420 Yeah.

00:12:58.140 Presence, power, and warmth. So what they mean, if you think about someone describing their experience

00:13:05.560 with a highly charismatic person, you'll often hear them talk about what an incredible presence

00:13:10.920 that person has, whoever it is from Condi Rice to Bill Clinton. And what presence is, is literally

00:13:19.600 the ability to stay present moment by moment with whatever is happening and not let your mind wander.

00:13:29.180 And the reason this is so critical is that if you've ever been in a conversation where only half

00:13:34.860 your mind is present and the other half is thinking about something else, there's a high chance that

00:13:41.920 your eyes will glaze over and your reactions will be a split second delayed. And people will catch that

00:13:49.120 on a subconscious level. And it will give them, it's called an incongruence in technical terms,

00:13:54.740 and it will give them the feeling that something's not quite right. So lack of presence, not being fully

00:14:02.240 present in the conversation, in the interaction, presence is kind of the foundation. If you don't have that,

00:14:08.520 everything else falls apart. So then there's power and warmth.

00:14:11.780 Yeah. So power, I want to really clarify that power is not actual physical power. It's not the

00:14:20.240 power to command an army. It doesn't relate to the actual power you wield, rather the perception

00:14:27.520 that we get of your ability to impact the world around you. And there are a variety of signals that we

00:14:36.360 look to, to get that. And of course, all the, um, accoutrement, you know, I'm French is my native

00:14:43.420 language. So I'll always have trouble saying French words with an American accent, but all the little

00:14:48.020 signals around a person that can symbolize, um, power and status, social status, a lot of intelligence,

00:14:57.060 whatever it might be. But the biggest determinant is the perceived level of self-confidence. And the

00:15:03.500 reason for that is that it's a heuristic, like many other things, our brain uses a shortcut to

00:15:10.040 determine power. And if you project self-confidence, the brain will, the other person will assume that

00:15:16.440 you actually have something to be confident about. Gotcha. So, I mean, I thought it was,

00:15:21.800 what I was struck by though, about power and we wrote about it, I surprisingly got a lot of pushback on

00:15:26.680 it. Uh, cause like, Oh, well, it's just like, people are like, Oh, you know, this is, if you display, if

00:15:32.120 you're trying to like display power, you're like, you're trying to be like a douchebag. You're trying to be 0.85

00:15:35.900 domineering. It just, I was kind of surprised that people were kind of uncomfortable displaying power.

00:15:43.000 Well, let me put it this way. A lot of people are uncomfortable with the idea of trying to display

00:15:49.580 power or confidence and then being found out to the fact that they actually don't have any. And so

00:15:57.680 you'll get a lot of pushback about that. But just to be clear, there's a difference between confidence

00:16:02.620 and arrogance. And I'm, I'm very clear that what you want to focus is the confidence. What you want

00:16:10.340 to display is the confidence, not the arrogance. And, uh, um, the difference really will show up in

00:16:16.900 minute areas in your body language. So let's say that you're, if your head is tilted up too far,

00:16:22.900 uh, there's a chance that you will come across as the classic expression, looking down your nose at

00:16:29.360 someone comes from the fact that when we are contemptuous, we really do, uh, lift up our noses

00:16:34.820 as if the other person stinks. So, um, so yeah, if you, and if you, I'm always delighted to, um, to talk

00:16:42.880 about whatever pushback you get. So if you have any specific areas, that was the one. And

00:16:46.840 I think a lot of it was with, um, cause I tried to explain like, yeah, it's not, you're not trying

00:16:51.960 to be domineering. It's just showing you have confidence. Um, but I think people just, when

00:16:56.960 they see power, oh, you gotta show display power. Uh, there's, I think often negative connotations

00:17:02.000 with that. And they kind of read into stuff that wasn't there, which I think is, is kind

00:17:07.220 of interesting. I mean, that's one of the interesting things with a blog people, the comments usually

00:17:10.400 say more about the person than like the confidence. So power. So besides what's like, I guess you

00:17:16.320 talked about some like specific things you can do to increase your, I guess, present

00:17:19.940 or display of power that are sort of subtle. Um, what are some of those things that guys

00:17:24.100 can do?

00:17:26.000 I think that one of the most important ones, and here's a good example, Brett, right now

00:17:30.740 I can hear you typing on the keyboard, which immediately gives me the, uh, my computer froze.

00:17:37.900 There you go. Uh, gives the, and remember perception is reality. It doesn't matter what

00:17:45.360 reality is, right? So of course, reality is that your computer frozen, you need to get

00:17:50.420 it back on frozen for a variety of excellent reasons, but the perception is going to be,

00:17:54.780 oh, he's spaced out.

00:17:55.520 Yeah. I'm not present.

00:17:57.880 There you go. Um, I think the fastest way for guys is to get comfortable with what's called

00:18:05.220 expansive poses. And there's, there's an example in the book. And I think you put it on the website

00:18:10.160 where, um, you learn how to kind of position yourself like a, like a big gorilla or like an

00:18:15.280 army general and really try to take up as much physical space as you can. And that will actually

00:18:19.940 affect your biochemistry. Um, but the other thing that I don't think I was able to put in the book

00:18:24.500 and that I will often recommend to, to guys I'm coaching is, um, take martial arts and take a real

00:18:32.080 martial art. And I know I'm going to piss some people off, but don't go for a sissy sport like 1.00

00:18:36.460 karate. Um, go for Brazilian jujitsu, MMA, judo, wrestling, go for a full contact sport. And the

00:18:45.080 reason is not only do you really learn focus and how to inhabit the space, but there's knowing that

00:18:51.640 you could take down whoever it is that you're in front of really gives you a background, uh,

00:18:57.860 um, un-intimidability, if that makes sense. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, actually we, we had a,

00:19:04.460 we have a guest post coming up, a guy who started a fight club in his garage and he works in sales.

00:19:10.440 And, um, he says like, it's helped him. Like when he gives a presentation, I just have a little bit

00:19:14.860 more confidence. And he's like, he's not, he's not like a, a bro. Like he got his MMA and in writing

00:19:20.800 from Notre Dame. Um, he's a really smart guy and he's, he's, he beats the crap out of him,

00:19:26.800 out of his friends in his garage, like once a week. And it's helped his career.

00:19:31.660 It'll help you in a lot of ways. And the other thing that's fun is that I've never met as nice

00:19:37.320 and calm people as I have, uh, on the fighting mat. It's, it's remarkable in the way that one,

00:19:45.120 you get to work out any aggression that you have, um, on the tatami or in whichever, um, art that

00:19:52.640 you're practicing. And two, the really mean guys often get weeded out. The other thing that I would

00:19:57.680 very much recommend, and this will, this one hits, uh, all three areas of presence, power,

00:20:03.840 and warmth is improv. And many, many cities have, uh, classes of improv theater. Let's be clear,

00:20:11.480 not improv comedy, improv theater. And improv really teaches you to think on your feet,

00:20:16.400 um, and be comfortable improvising, obviously. And it can, that one can make a gigantic difference

00:20:23.400 to your social confidence. Very cool. You know, you talked about kind of taking up more space as

00:20:28.220 a way to display power. I remember like this very distinctly when I was a kid, my dad, when he'd have

00:20:33.720 employees come over to our house for like, you know, a barbecue or a grill, like I remember like

00:20:38.760 he would like, when he'd sit on the recliner, like he would like drape a leg over. Exactly. And like,

00:20:44.320 I remember like a kid, I was like, that's pretty goofy. But then now I'm like, that's just like,

00:20:48.020 it was like total power display by my, by my dad. That's an alpha male signaling. Yeah. Okay. My

00:20:54.000 dad, my dad was an alpha male. That's cool. Okay. Doesn't that feel good? Yeah. Uh, yeah. And the

00:20:59.260 third recommendation that I, that I would give, if you really want to take charisma to the next level,

00:21:04.980 uh, take tango. And the reason that I specifically recommend tango is that it's one of the few truly

00:21:12.280 improvisational partner dance that also, um, has, I mean, capoeira obviously is, is both a, a fighting

00:21:21.720 art and a dance that, that is improvisational, but it doesn't have that contact. It doesn't have that

00:21:27.480 dialogue, um, that close that tango will give you. And so, uh, since conversation, any interaction

00:21:35.380 really is a dance. It's a conversation. There is, there is a choreography in learning

00:21:40.820 improvisational choreography in the partner space can make you a whole lot more powerful

00:21:46.460 in that realm. Interesting. Yeah. So yeah, I, I, I actually took dance lessons with my wife,

00:21:51.420 uh, and we did tango and yeah. And it was, it was really cool to kind of, you know, you use your body

00:21:57.860 to like, just sort of subtly, you know, guide your partner to like where you want them to go.

00:22:03.260 Yeah. You communicate. Yeah. Okay. Well, so we talked about presence. We talked about warmth or not

00:22:08.140 warmth, talk about power. So like what warmth, like what is, what do you mean by that? Just

00:22:12.460 kind, gentle. Yeah. Warmth is really simply giving people the impression that you have goodwill towards

00:22:18.980 them. And it does go back to evolutionary roots. Someone who both has the power to affect our world

00:22:26.420 and things kindly of us, uh, is a really valuable asset. So that's someone that we really want to pay

00:22:31.680 attention to focus on, uh, cultivate as a, as a contact and warmth is evaluated 100% through body

00:22:42.680 language and behavior. There, there's going to be no status symbols. Uh, there's the clothing that you

00:22:49.060 wear, uh, will be much, really won't play any part. What we look at, um, is not the face in general,

00:22:57.920 but more specifically the eyes and the voice. Those are the two biggest markers of warmth.

00:23:02.660 So you can't, it's hard to fake warmth. Yeah. And, and, uh, warmth is indeed because it relies so,

00:23:09.320 uh, thoroughly on body language and because there's far too many body language signals that we send out

00:23:16.980 every minute for us to fake it good, uh, coherently. Warmth is one of those things that you can't fake.

00:23:23.900 Now that said, you can placebo effect your way into a warmth mindset that will then translate

00:23:29.360 into your, uh, your body language and behavior. Okay. Gotcha. So do you need all three to be

00:23:35.980 charismatic or can you, yeah, you do. Yep. And the only thing that changes is what kind of charisma

00:23:43.000 you'll get depending on which of the three is most prevalent, but you absolutely need all three and

00:23:49.760 you, you can't do without any of them. All right. So yeah, that leads us to our next question. So what are

00:23:53.600 these types of charisma you talk about? So let's be clear that it's broken down to four charisma

00:23:58.980 styles in the book because Penguin insisted that it be broken down. Yeah. I know how that goes

00:24:03.560 writing a book, right? Yeah. Um, there's, there's no really four categories. Uh, obviously there's

00:24:10.580 every charisma is more complex than that. And it's going to be mixing between the styles. It's,

00:24:15.040 you can flow from one style to the other, but they're, they're good groupings. Uh, and also there

00:24:21.080 are a couple of styles of that. I couldn't put in the book simply for decency levels.

00:24:24.240 And also because I'm focused on the business world. Um, but let's say that you have highest

00:24:29.780 levels of presence. What you'll get is focused charisma. And if you know, Elon Musk, the founder

00:24:35.100 of Tesla, SpaceX, et cetera, uh, Elon is, is very, very focused charisma, um, capable. And he can

00:24:46.280 really turn that particular kind of charisma on at will. Um, if you think of jobs, which is of course

00:24:53.140 what too many people seek to emulate, you're looking at visionary charisma. Let's say that,

00:24:58.200 uh, with you of the three power confidence is the highest of the, of the three levels, you'd be

00:25:05.760 looking at authority charisma and, um, Colin Powell is a great example of that. And last but not

00:25:13.320 least, uh, if warmth is the highest, you can have the, um, the effect that both the Dalai Lama and

00:25:20.600 Clinton have, they both rely primarily on warmth. Gotcha. But they still have those other elements

00:25:26.260 though. Like power. And that's kind of surprising. Like the Dalai Lama displays power, right?

00:25:30.820 Even though he's the Dalai Lama. Come on, the status. Well, especially because he's the Dalai Lama.

00:25:35.860 Um, there are many other monks who have this. Mathieu Ricard is a good example. Um, I had a delegation,

00:25:41.900 I met a delegation of eight monks recently in the Bay area, um, who are just incredibly cool,

00:25:47.580 who are coming on a, what they call a compassion tour and being in their presence is really being

00:25:53.460 in the, in the presence of pure joy, unconditional kindness and goodwill. It's, it's, it's, uh,

00:26:00.440 it's almost overpowering, but because there isn't this whole status built around them,

00:26:05.800 it's not the same otherworldly effect and reality distortion field as you'll get

00:26:12.760 with a Dalai Lama. Interesting. So these different charismatic styles, I, you kind of mentioned

00:26:19.020 earlier that, um, all of us might be predisposed or be more comfortable with a certain style because

00:26:25.580 of just of our personalities. Yeah. And the rule of thumb is, uh, in situations where the outcome

00:26:30.860 doesn't really matter, try out new styles and, and push out of your comfort zone in a high stakes

00:26:36.780 situation, stick close to home and, and use the tools that you're comfortable with and that you

00:26:41.140 can rely on. Gotcha. So if you're giving like a big pitch, like this is not the time to show that you

00:26:46.920 are the alpha male, you know, you're not going to be a gorilla if you're not naturally a gorilla.

00:26:52.360 If you're not naturally a gorilla, a gorilla, correct. Um, and, and a lot of people have a certain

00:26:58.720 fluency of styles. And also remember this, the whole 10,000 hours really comes into play. So

00:27:06.740 I think you'd mentioned the, the video that's on my website. That's one where it seems so effortless

00:27:16.160 because I could say it backwards in my sleep. I've been giving this presentation on this subject

00:27:22.200 for 10 years. And as a result, every breath is conscious. Every tilt of the head is deliberate.

00:27:30.760 That is the choreography of movement. And obviously it's not perfect by any means, but everything is

00:27:36.440 deliberately chosen. And you'll see me flow from focus to power, uh, to kindness and all the other

00:27:43.420 charisma styles you'll in the, in the real superstars, whether it's Oprah or whether it's Clinton,

00:27:49.260 you will see them flow from one style of charisma to another. You don't need to do that. If you're,

00:27:55.120 if you're not paid to present for a living. Okay. I just had a question and it just slipped my mind.

00:28:02.100 Okay. Well, so yeah, here's the question. Okay. So I know a lot of people may be listening to this

00:28:05.480 like, okay, this is great, but they, there's sort of like this ick factor. They're like,

00:28:08.360 cause we were like, we're this culture. We're like, you have to be authentic, right? Like you have to

00:28:12.300 like, whatever, you know, comes out of you naturally, that's what you do. And I think a lot of people

00:28:16.820 there's like, I don't want to do that. It's not authentic. Um, what's your, what's your argument?

00:28:20.560 I love that question. So there's a, there's a couple of answers. I can give you the flippant

00:28:24.360 answer when people tell me, Oh, I don't want to play games. And I always answer, you're playing

00:28:29.940 them anyway. You might as well win. Yeah. The other answer when people say, but isn't that

00:28:34.840 manipulation? I say you are manipulating everyone on a constant basis. Manipulation is simply trying to

00:28:40.760 get people to do a specific thing. And really the only thing that matters is intent. But if we get

00:28:47.420 a bit less flippant, I would, and look at authenticity, I would ask you this, am I being

00:28:52.620 inauthentic right now by speaking English with you? Um, well, no, I would say no. And yet, um,

00:29:02.720 I am choosing to speak a language that is not my native tongue in order for us to be able to 1.00

00:29:08.680 better. And in the very same way, charisma is a tool like any other to enable you to communicate

00:29:20.680 better. Again, it's back to, it's all about what you use it for. And so charisma is a tool in the

00:29:27.400 same sense that if a plumber comes to fix a leak, is he better off with having one single tool or is

00:29:32.840 he better off with having 16 of them? You need multiple tools. Exactly. So that's the way I view

00:29:39.180 charisma. So I'm fortunate enough that I speak several languages and I don't have an inner

00:29:44.140 philosophical debate before switching languages as to, you know, am I really staying close to my

00:29:49.340 authentic nature here? Um, even though I'm going to speak a language that's not my own, same with

00:29:54.820 charisma. Okay. Okay. Here's the question. So you mentioned, uh, some of the charisma styles

00:29:59.280 didn't make into your book because they weren't really business related. What were some of those?

00:30:02.820 And they were a little indecent, you said. Yeah. Well, obviously the seductive charisma and that's

00:30:06.800 where, uh, the, the whole, um, I guess, underworld of the PUA's or PUA's comes along. And what's,

00:30:15.540 what's, what's been hilarious for me is that for whatever reason, uh, they and I tended to get

00:30:20.800 along very well. And some of my closest friends were, um, characters, uh, real life characters in,

00:30:26.200 in Neil Strauss's book, the game. So superstar charisma is one that you can absolutely learn.

00:30:33.520 And I, I don't know if you offer those kinds of programs, but I know that the guys at the art of

00:30:38.380 charm do, I know that there's, there's a couple of really good programs, um, to learn seductive

00:30:43.820 charisma. So like, are they like some of the stuff that they like put out there, like the,

00:30:48.060 the, the PUA community, some of it just seems like, okay, this is sort of like woo woo stuff,

00:30:52.140 but is it actually, are they? Yeah, some of it is complete horse shit. And a lot of the good stuff 0.99

00:30:56.360 is really plagiarizing, uh, Cialdini's work. Robert Cialdini is kind of the, uh, you know,

00:31:02.620 the, the, the granddad of this entire field of influence. And so a lot of the more credible stuff

00:31:09.040 is plagiarizing Cialdini, uh, without obviously giving attribution. Uh, but that said, um, there are

00:31:15.520 some of those programs that package extremely neatly. And I saw Neil, um, I, I flew down,

00:31:22.660 Neil gives seminars for what, what is called, I think the society. Um, right. And I, and I flew

00:31:28.540 down to, uh, to speak at one of his seminars. And so I, I saw the rest of it and his neuroscience is

00:31:33.700 right on target. And he's obviously focused on seductive charisma, seduction charisma. Um, and if

00:31:40.180 you look at someone like him, it's, um, it's really solid and it works. Interesting. It's like

00:31:45.280 what sort of charisma, um, I guess the three pillars when you're trying to do seductive

00:31:50.100 charisma, would you focus on? All three, all three. Sorry. Yeah. All three. Okay. Um,

00:31:55.540 Neil might tell you that you start, you focus more on confidence, but the real answer actually,

00:32:00.900 to tell you the truth is it depends where you're starting from. If you, if you already are emanating

00:32:06.640 so much confidence that you come across as borderline insufferable, um, you're, you are

00:32:11.200 genuinely, uh, going to turn off a lot of people. Cocky funny only goes so far. Yeah. That's the

00:32:17.600 common, the common trope, right? Like you gotta be cocky funny. Yeah. And it'll work for the first

00:32:21.820 five minutes. But, uh, if, if you try cocky funny on, on me, I'll enjoy it for, I don't know,

00:32:28.120 five, 10 minutes. And then I'm like, all right, you actually have depth there. Cause if you don't,

00:32:31.720 I'm out. So you, it, you really have to have the ability to show all three. Okay. So what,

00:32:39.080 what is seductive, um, charisma look like? I mean, I kind of get warmth or, you know,

00:32:45.040 sort of authoritative charisma. I understand what, what would that, what would seductive

00:32:48.020 charisma look like? Uh, seductive charisma is more felt than it is, um, seen. So let's distinguish

00:32:56.840 between two superstar charisma. Think Marilyn Monroe, Marilyn Monroe could turn that charisma 1.00

00:33:04.260 on. And I, my book starts with a story about that, where she could consciously turn on her

00:33:10.180 superstar charisma and the world stopped around her. That's a charisma that's visible at 10 paces. 1.00

00:33:15.940 Seduction charisma is really all about your target. If you are able to, uh, make your target feel

00:33:24.120 attracted to you. If you're able to create that slight over otherworldly feel that the two of you

00:33:29.180 are in your little universe and that she, she, or he is completely enraptured by you,

00:33:34.000 that's seduction charisma. It's less about what it looks like and more about how it feels

00:33:38.600 to the target. Got you. Yeah. I read a book not too long ago called swoon, um, about like lady killers, 0.96

00:33:46.440 basically. Yeah. And one of them kind of surprising was like Lord Byron. Well, you know,

00:33:50.500 everyone knows Lord Byron was, uh, a womanizer, but like the thing was like, he wasn't a very

00:33:55.420 attractive guy. Like he had a, no, really not like, but he was still able to like these women

00:34:00.440 just flock to him. You know, they just, they wanted to be near him. So he had seductive

00:34:04.900 charisma. He very much had. Yes. Okay. Yes. And again, the, the type of, of, uh, seductive

00:34:12.300 charisma will really need to be tailored to, uh, your target. And so let's, let's talk about

00:34:20.940 Neil's book, the game. Uh, there's, there's a lot of criticism about all the elements that

00:34:26.720 the book is missing. And yes, there are a lot, but keep in mind that, uh, if I remember correctly,

00:34:30.800 the book originally was 700 pages. So he had to cut a hell of a lot. Um, every target will need

00:34:38.940 a tiny variation or actually a huge variation. If you're looking specifically at, at, um,

00:34:44.500 creating seduction charisma. And if you want, if, if you were trying to seduce me or if you're

00:34:50.000 trying to seduce another woman, we would react to completely different elements. And for some

00:34:55.460 women, because of genetics, upbringing, culture, personality, whatever, let's say that one of 1.00

00:35:01.840 them will love. So for them go cocky, funny all the way and actually go the whole, you know,

00:35:07.260 the go the whole negging route, et cetera, and that'll work for others. They're going to want

00:35:12.040 to see what level of self-awareness you have, what, what depth can you go to? And if you can't

00:35:17.460 show that you've lost them and there's no way you can get them back. So yeah, keep in mind that it's

00:35:23.960 incredibly individual. And the other thing that I know Neil couldn't talk about, um, in the book and

00:35:29.500 simply for lack of space, but which is absolutely critical is social class. So that's kind of a taboo

00:35:36.760 subject in this country. Um, but social class and social class is not money, but really what are

00:35:44.620 the straight of the strata of social class that actually will, will greatly affect your ability

00:35:50.900 to take a girl home. If that's what you're looking for. 1.00

00:35:53.860 Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've been reading, I'm actually working on a series about, um, men in status.

00:35:59.260 Oh, excellent. Um, and it's surprising. Like some of the research is really surprising. That's out

00:36:04.080 there. Um, it's kind of, kind of intuitive. And yeah, I think one of the problem, what I see with

00:36:07.900 like the, the whole PUA community, like I understand there's guys that like, they need

00:36:11.900 that. They're just like, they're not, they're awkward. They need that. And I feel like a lot

00:36:15.220 of times they just use it as sort of like a, a one size fits all. Like they just, okay, take this and

00:36:19.580 I'm going to take the same approach with every woman. And then it doesn't work. You're like, 1.00

00:36:24.780 what's going on?

00:36:25.620 It's a great starting point. It's a great confidence booster. Cause you know, just the

00:36:29.920 relief that you can learn this stuff and knowing that there is a system. So it's a great starting

00:36:34.800 point, but then there are going to be so many individual pitfalls. Um, and I'm glad that you're

00:36:41.120 looking at, at, um, at status. Are you going to write a piece about status and social class?

00:36:46.520 Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's, that's kind of where I'm going at it. And it's just, um, I mean,

00:36:50.560 the thing I'm going at is how status affects men differently than women. That's one of the key 0.97

00:36:55.540 components because one thing I found is that, uh, like status defeat or rejection,

00:37:00.640 Oh, lights up the amygdala. Like, yeah, it meant it like, it's like their cortisol level spike more

00:37:06.740 than women. Um, it shortens your life. You age faster, you die sooner and you have a less happy 1.00

00:37:13.240 life. Yeah. And kind of the angle I'm going at with it is that, um, today, I mean, like men, um,

00:37:19.460 face constant status defeat because like, we're so connected, right? You're not only just competing

00:37:24.400 against like the guy in your town or the neighbor, you're competing with like everyone on like the

00:37:29.140 rich kids of Instagram, like all the, the bro dudes have blogs that are traveling over the world.

00:37:33.760 And like, you know, that's who you're competing against now. Yeah. It's really, really hard in

00:37:37.840 the same way. You can make the parallel, uh, for women who are facing similar status defeat with, 0.98

00:37:44.380 uh, with impossible physical, uh, beauty standards. Right. And, and you look at the death rate 0.85

00:37:50.360 amongst teenager, um, eating disorders amongst women is, is the leading cause of death amongst,

00:37:56.320 um, American teenagers. It's, it's female teenagers. It is. So, um, the other thing to look at with, 0.98

00:38:04.280 with status is, um, um, you have a couple of people who have Tim Ferriss is one, uh, Leo Babauta who runs,

00:38:11.480 uh, Zen Habits is another who advocates a media diet and just for your own mental health, for your own

00:38:18.280 confidence, for your own charisma, frankly. Um, it's an incredibly healthy thing to do.

00:38:23.960 Yeah. We, uh, we had just read a post about taking tech Sabbaths, you know, once a week,

00:38:28.440 just turn everything off and get outside, reset the brain. Yeah. All right. So, um,

00:38:35.400 can knowing about charisma, like inoculate you from the seductive charms of charismatic people

00:38:39.600 or is resistance futile? Um, again, I think it'll depend on what kind of charisma. Um,

00:38:46.680 there are certain levels, Clinton, apparently I, uh, I'll always remember this, uh, old Republican

00:38:53.840 who'd met Clinton who told me, Bill Clinton, I hated him before I met him. I hated him after I

00:39:00.240 met him, but while I met him, man, I love the man. So that's Clinton. Resistance is futile. Um,

00:39:07.640 I think that it's more, uh, a perception of inauthenticity, um, or manipulation for a negative

00:39:16.060 purpose that will, um, that will kind of kill a charismatic effect. Knowing about it can let

00:39:25.720 you see the, the undersides. So, uh, for example, women who have read the game or who've taken, 0.81

00:39:31.760 um, seminars or who know that literature, you'll have a hard time using the same opening lines on

00:39:38.180 them or the exact same routines on them because of course they know about them. Um, so I'd say in a

00:39:43.860 sense a little bit for most forms of charisma, but there are some that will just overpower your

00:39:49.860 brain. Nothing you do about it. Okay. All right. So I wish we could talk more, but I know you have

00:39:54.440 to go. Um, where can people find out more about your work? Oh, that's easy. Askolivia.com. Like

00:40:01.340 asking a question. That's an awesome, awesome domain name. Askolivia.com. Well, great. Well,

00:40:06.020 Olivia Fox, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure. It's a pleasure. I'll talk to you

00:40:09.880 soon, Brett. Thank you. Take care. Our guest today was Olivia Fox. She is the author of the book,

00:40:14.320 the charisma myth, how anyone can master the art and science of personal magnetism. And you can find

00:40:18.880 that on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. And you can also find more about her work at

00:40:23.900 askolivia.com. Well, that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips

00:40:31.960 and advice. Make sure to check out the art of manliness website at art of manliness.com. And if you

00:40:36.580 enjoy the podcast and you're getting something out of it, I'd really appreciate it. If you go to

00:40:40.200 iTunes or to stitcher or whatever you use to listen to your podcast and give us a review or a rating

00:40:45.180 that will help us out a lot. So until next time, stay manly.

The Art of Manliness - June 13, 2014

#72： The Charisma Myth With Olivia Fox

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