The Art of Manliness - #73： Valor With Mark Greenblatt

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:20.760 So in American history and culture, we have our famous war heroes from the Civil War,

00:00:26.700 from the Revolutionary War, World War I and World War II.

00:00:29.940 These were men who were celebrated for their acts of bravery in the battlefield.

00:00:34.580 People like Sergeant York, George Washington, etc.

00:00:37.520 But it seems like these two most recent wars we've been involved in,

00:00:41.680 the Afghanistan war and the war in Iraq, we don't really have those sort of superstar heroes.

00:00:47.880 But the thing is, there's some really heroic things going on.

00:00:51.460 There's some men who are doing just amazing things and just dire situations.

00:00:56.700 And our guest today wanted to find out why that is, and he wanted to correct that.

00:01:01.380 His name is Mark Lee Greenblatt, and he is the author of the book Valor,

00:01:05.480 Unsung Heroes from Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Homefront.

00:01:09.020 And in today's podcast, Mark and I talk about why don't we know more about some of these brave men

00:01:14.060 who are fighting overseas and some of the things that they've done.

00:01:18.260 And then we talk about some of the men that he writes about in his book and what they did

00:01:22.820 and their acts of bravery and valor that they displayed.

00:01:25.700 And then we also talk about what lessons we can learn from these men.

00:01:28.960 So it's a fascinating podcast.

00:01:30.880 I hope you'll tune in.

00:01:32.600 It's going to be a good one.

00:01:40.080 Mark Greenblatt, welcome to the show.

00:01:41.960 Well, thanks so much for having me on, Brett.

00:01:43.580 I got to tell you before we start that I am such a huge, huge fan of the art of manliness.

00:01:48.260 I listen to podcasts all the time.

00:01:50.740 Steve Pressfield's interview was great about the turning pro and Battle of Thermopylae and everything like that.

00:01:58.740 It's just, this is great.

00:02:00.000 This is one of my favorite things to listen to.

00:02:02.760 So it's a real honor to be on.

00:02:04.580 Well, thank you very much.

00:02:05.360 I'm very humbled.

00:02:06.280 So your book is called Valor, Unsung Heroes from Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Homefront.

00:02:14.940 First off, what inspired you to write this book?

00:02:18.600 Well, back in 2007 and 2008, I went to these awards banquets where they honored military heroes.

00:02:26.340 And they would recite the stories of what these men and women had done.

00:02:29.760 And they were just unbelievable.

00:02:32.460 And, you know, there was not a dry eye in the house at these big gala events.

00:02:38.160 Everyone's crying about how amazing, how inspirational they were.

00:02:42.140 And I remember thinking to myself, how come no one knows these guys?

00:02:45.900 How come, you know, they'll be lucky to be bagging groceries if they get a job in the first place?

00:02:52.440 You know, whereas in the past, you know, war heroes came home and they were household names.

00:02:58.260 And we had ticker tape parades for them in their communities.

00:03:01.860 And we really had gotten away from that.

00:03:04.540 And I set out to change that.

00:03:07.640 I said, these people, you know, we need to know their stories.

00:03:09.840 We need to know their names.

00:03:10.960 And that was really the moment when I said, this is something I've got to do.

00:03:16.320 So why do you think, I was wondering that too.

00:03:18.160 As I was reading these stories of these men in combat, I kept on wondering, like, why haven't I heard about these guys?

00:03:26.040 Because you hear, there's a few that I know about.

00:03:28.880 But for the most part, I don't know.

00:03:31.160 And like, you're right, like back in World War I and World War II, war heroes were household names.

00:03:38.240 Like, they even make movies about them, like, during the actual war, while the war was still going on, ticker tape parades.

00:03:45.920 So why is it that these past two wars, the one in Iraq and Afghanistan, failed to produce the superstar war heroes?

00:03:53.160 Because it's not anything that the men have done.

00:03:55.320 Like, they're doing heroic things.

00:03:56.820 But something's going on on the home front that's not allowing that to happen.

00:04:03.000 Right.

00:04:03.200 I think it generally boils down to two, maybe more factors.

00:04:07.100 But the two that pop into my mind instantly are politics and the focus of the media, frankly.

00:04:13.240 You know, these wars were generally very political, particularly Iraq.

00:04:18.340 And, you know, if you think back to those days, 2005, 2006, 2007, those are dark days, I think, in American history, particularly when you talk about the wars.

00:04:27.240 And the debate was really frenzied and really nasty.

00:04:32.280 And amidst that turmoil, I think stories of selflessness became passe.

00:04:38.720 You know, heroes were sort of old news, and it was sort of romanticized to go the other way and find the stories that were bad.

00:04:48.380 And that was the balance that I was trying to fix.

00:04:51.540 I felt that it had gotten out of whack, that people would know very few American soldiers who were serving overseas.

00:04:59.620 And the few that they did know were for bad reasons, like Lindy England and the Abu Ghraib scandal.

00:05:04.640 Or for controversial reasons, like, you know, Pat Tillman or Jessica Lynch, we had no one that was just like Audie Murphy or Sergeant York in World War I.

00:05:16.460 And that was exactly the void I was trying to fill.

00:05:18.820 And the other thing was the media.

00:05:19.720 I think there was showing these kinds of stories, these positive stories, were viewed in the media as being biased in favor of the war and sort of propping up the Bush administration at a time when that was, I think, very passe.

00:05:37.840 And so I think that was those two things really created an atmosphere where stories of heroism just got lost.

00:05:44.780 Yeah. Do you think we're also, as a culture, uncomfortable with violence for good purposes?

00:05:51.360 I mean, even if it's used for good, do you think we're sort of uncomfortable kind of lauding, you know, war exploits?

00:05:59.220 I think that's a part of that.

00:06:01.340 You know, I would say that there's violence all around us.

00:06:03.960 I mean, you've looked at movies and video games.

00:06:07.340 You know, in a way, we've become desensitized to that sort of violence.

00:06:11.160 But I think there's also another factor that might be at play, which is that we have a bit of a disconnect between the folks who serve and their families and the folks who don't.

00:06:24.320 And I think that disconnect, you know, back in the day, everyone knew, you know, someone who was serving.

00:06:31.760 You know, it was either the guy down the block or someone in your own family.

00:06:35.340 Whereas now I think there's a chasm between those who are serving and those who aren't.

00:06:41.700 And so those folks don't have it in front of them and aren't so committed to knowing these stories and publicizing these stories.

00:06:48.660 And so I think that's a third factor that really goes into why these names are not, you know, household names like in years past.

00:06:57.140 Okay. I think I remember reading, and maybe I read this incorrectly, but do we give fewer medals for valor during the two most recent wars than we did in previous wars?

00:07:08.420 And if so, why is that?

00:07:10.220 Yeah, I don't know about in toto, you know, in terms of all of the medals, but certainly with respect to the Medal of Honor, which is the one that gets the most notoriety,

00:07:18.380 I mean, you know, the most attention and really kind of frames, you know, the perception of these things in the American public, certainly those are way off.

00:07:28.880 In World War II, I think it was, it was one per 35,000.

00:07:34.340 And in the last two wars, it's something along the lines of one per every 115,000.

00:07:41.280 So it's dramatically different.

00:07:43.840 And part of the problem is the nature of the battles that we're facing, at least this is what I've read,

00:07:49.600 is that DOD regs say that the Medal of Honor has to involve enemy combatants.

00:07:55.780 And so when someone does something heroic in the face of, say, an IED attack, there's no actual enemy combatant.

00:08:02.340 And so for a while, I believe that held up or at least skewed the Medals of Honor, you know, versus in previous combat.

00:08:14.440 And I think there's an effort to change that or review that because that's really kind of changing the numbers

00:08:22.760 and therefore changing the perception of the wars in the way that we're talking about.

00:08:26.280 Okay. Another thing, as I was reading this, reminded me, because before I read Sebastian Junger's War,

00:08:35.340 and then your book reminded me of it, is just the tactical difficulty of these two most recent wars.

00:08:41.560 And I don't think a lot of Americans understand what the, what our fighting soldiers are facing,

00:08:48.500 or what they faced over there, in some cases still facing today.

00:08:51.260 Okay. How were the two most recent wars different from previous wars that we've been in?

00:09:00.540 Well, I think the big thing is, is that we're not fighting a known enemy,

00:09:04.340 in the sense that they're not wearing uniforms and they're not using sort of typical battle tactics.

00:09:11.240 They're just popping up as snipers in the middle of the street and using IEDs in a way that I think is different from previous engagements,

00:09:18.220 at least on the scale that we're seeing. And that has had a dramatic impact.

00:09:25.480 The, you know, one thing that, the impact on the guys, is that you can never really let your guard down.

00:09:31.360 You know, we've had so many infiltrations where purportedly friendly forces are then turning their weapons on Americans,

00:09:39.700 that our guys can't really put their guard down.

00:09:42.240 So there's no downtime. And that keeps them on edge for long, long periods of time.

00:09:48.520 And so I think that has, over the long haul, a really detrimental effect, at least what I heard,

00:09:54.100 was that it was, that was really hard, just keeping your, you know, your mind engaged at all times.

00:10:00.980 I mean, that gets old after a year-long, you know, deployment.

00:10:03.940 And so I think that change is really having an impact, and that's hurting them when they come back.

00:10:10.900 I think that's very difficult for them to deal with when they come back, because they're always on edge,

00:10:15.400 always looking for a long period of time, you know, looking around the corner,

00:10:19.440 looking at that debris in the street, wondering whether that's an IED.

00:10:23.780 And so when they're walking down the street in their hometown, they're reminded of these things,

00:10:27.420 and so it's constantly on their brain.

00:10:29.360 And I think that weighs on them, and that really has had a dramatic impact.

00:10:33.940 Yeah, and I mean, I guess the Iraq War was a little more of a traditional war,

00:10:38.680 where there was, you know, an army, perhaps.

00:10:41.120 But like the Afghan, the war in Afghanistan, that was just crazy. 0.98

00:10:44.320 I mean, like, first off, Afghanistan is like, just a, the environment there is just crazy. 1.00

00:10:48.800 It's one of the most harshest places on earth.

00:10:51.000 And then you have like these, you describe these, some of the encounters,

00:10:54.100 and they happen in these little small villages that have these winding goat trails.

00:10:59.140 And you, I mean, you don't, you really can't see what's coming at you.

00:11:05.460 I mean, it just, it just really, when I was reading that, it's just, I couldn't imagine being in those guys' place.

00:11:10.840 Yeah, that's right.

00:11:11.560 And I think the other thing that is, is that, you know, if you think about World War I, World War II,

00:11:15.100 our guys were going over to Western Europe.

00:11:16.880 You know, they can appreciate Western Europe.

00:11:18.520 They may not speak the language, but they know what a, you know, what a bakery looks like.

00:11:21.620 They know, you know, what's going on, you know, when the streets and the signs and, you know,

00:11:26.060 they can get some semblance of what's happening.

00:11:28.600 Whereas when you're in a rural village in Afghanistan, that is as far away as you can get.

00:11:34.840 I mean, one of the guys that I interviewed described the landscape as like walking on the moon.

00:11:39.680 You know, he was like literally in a different, in a different, you know, place in the universe

00:11:45.500 from what he was familiar with.

00:11:47.500 And I think doing that over and over again with languages that are so different and the

00:11:51.760 cultural experiences are so different.

00:11:53.960 I mean, they couldn't really relate to the people, the goat herders that they were interacting 1.00

00:11:57.840 with.

00:11:58.200 And I think that really over time, just, just really weighs on the guys in a way that's

00:12:03.460 different from previous wars where it's, you know, you can understand the terrain better.

00:12:08.540 Your brain is working less actively because you know what the church looks like and that

00:12:13.240 sort of thing.

00:12:14.020 And so I think that, that has another impact as well.

00:12:16.380 So we'll get into some of the specific stories here in a bit, but before we do that, what

00:12:21.660 did all the men who you included in your book have in common?

00:12:26.160 Or, I mean, I guess what I'm saying is like, what traits gave them valor and made them a

00:12:29.740 hero?

00:12:31.360 There are two things that really emerge.

00:12:34.260 One is this sense of brotherhood, this self, selflessness, this, this teamwork.

00:12:40.940 It's, it's overwhelming when you talk to these guys and the nine that I profiled, but also

00:12:45.660 the other folks that I interviewed, the other men and women in that, you know, that were

00:12:48.920 in, uh, in the stories, uh, this sense of brotherhood is unlike anything we see in civilian

00:12:54.880 life.

00:12:55.380 I mean, the, the willingness to do anything, literally anything, uh, to save your buddy,

00:13:01.600 it is just, it's sort of awe inspiring.

00:13:05.320 And I mean that in the actual, you know, real way, like it inspired awe in me that they were

00:13:10.100 so willing to do anything for each other.

00:13:12.380 It was just a fascinating, uh, you know, characteristic that I tried to convey to the readers.

00:13:18.040 I really tried to put them in their minds and convey that just their willingness to do so

00:13:22.600 because I don't think we can appreciate it.

00:13:25.060 The second thing is in each of the stories, the men had these moments amidst the maelstrom

00:13:31.820 going on around them where they were in relative safety.

00:13:35.600 And what I mean by that is like the bullets weren't firing directly at them.

00:13:38.860 They were inside the bill, inside the building when the, the shots were being fired in the

00:13:43.020 alleyway immediately outside, that sort of thing.

00:13:45.080 But in each of the stories, the heroes decided to put themselves in greater danger.

00:13:51.500 They left that position of relative safety and put themselves in greater danger in order

00:13:57.240 to save a life or accomplish a mission.

00:13:59.360 And that moment was fascinating to me.

00:14:02.100 I had to find out more about that.

00:14:04.400 And so I really slowed down time.

00:14:07.480 Uh, and you know, I was asking these guys, I mean, minute by minute, second by second, what

00:14:11.040 do you think of men?

00:14:11.600 What's happening then what's happening then and try to place the reader in their bodies,

00:14:17.300 in their minds, as these dire circumstances are unfolding and say, what is making you think

00:14:22.400 about going into that, into the sniper spire or jumping into this swirling water in the

00:14:29.000 middle of the Atlantic in the middle of this horrific storm?

00:14:31.440 You know, what's making you jump in there and do that?

00:14:35.060 Uh, and, and that was just a fascinating moment.

00:14:37.520 And that was what I tried to capture for the readers.

00:14:39.140 Well, you did a good job capturing both the, the brotherhood and why these men made the

00:14:44.840 decisions that they did.

00:14:45.560 And yeah, I'll be honest when you're, when I was reading to these stories, talking about

00:14:48.920 brotherhood and something we've talked about on the site before, like talking about honor,

00:14:52.280 right?

00:14:52.840 This idea that you, you, it's all about caring for your brotherhood and being concerned

00:14:58.180 about your status within the group.

00:14:59.840 And that means putting the team before you.

00:15:02.760 And that was another common thread I saw among these guys.

00:15:04.420 Like it was the team before self.

00:15:06.640 That's right.

00:15:07.440 That's right.

00:15:07.840 Self-sacrifice.

00:15:08.680 Yeah.

00:15:09.020 Yeah.

00:15:09.480 And as I was reading these stories, like I'll admit, like, I was like, man, I, I want

00:15:13.480 to sign up just so I can experience that sort of brotherhood.

00:15:16.520 Cause like, I'll, I'll, I'll be honest.

00:15:18.420 I don't think I've ever experienced anything like that or close to it.

00:15:21.260 Maybe it's something, you know, on a small magnitude, but I've, I'm sort of envious in

00:15:27.180 a way of these men who had that experience.

00:15:28.860 I don't envy like the, you know, being in, you know, having to worry about IEDs, but I envy

00:15:33.380 that, that sense of camaraderie and brotherhood.

00:15:36.820 And I think a lot of men probably want that in their life too.

00:15:40.480 Absolutely.

00:15:41.160 I mean, I felt the exact same way.

00:15:42.820 I said, you know, there's that envy that, you know, you're just like, wow, that, that

00:15:46.400 is so captivating that you can be part of something that you would literally die for.

00:15:50.660 I mean, that, that is just mind boggling.

00:15:52.880 And, and I, I was so inspired by that.

00:15:56.100 And, and, you know, one of the stories involved a guy named James Hassel, who literally carried

00:16:00.560 a mortally injured guy through crossfire.

00:16:05.100 And, you know, both of them said they weren't particularly close, but it wasn't like they

00:16:09.120 were best friends.

00:16:09.800 It wasn't like they'd grown up together.

00:16:11.140 It wasn't like they were, you know, soulmates or anything like that.

00:16:14.420 But James was like, that's, that's my teammate and I am not going to let him die.

00:16:20.360 And Chris Kyle of one of the Navy SEALs, he didn't even know the guy that he saved.

00:16:24.720 And he put himself in extraordinary danger, literally liberating a group of Marines he

00:16:31.460 did not know, you know, and single-handedly pushing off insurgent snipers to, to, to liberate

00:16:38.160 them.

00:16:38.340 I mean, just a captivating moment.

00:16:39.980 And he didn't even know them, uh, it was just that, that sort of generic, uh, team

00:16:44.820 that, that, that he was a part of.

00:16:46.680 And I just found that just so overwhelming.

00:16:48.800 Yeah.

00:16:49.320 I mean, I love the idea of that self-sacrifice forces you to, when you're doing something

00:16:55.080 for others, you push yourself beyond your limits.

00:16:58.580 I feel like, cause I feel like in America, at least right now, there's this sort of idea

00:17:02.200 that, oh, I want self-fulfillment.

00:17:03.960 I want to become the best me.

00:17:05.240 And it's all about doing stuff for yourself, right?

00:17:08.180 You do like, you know, you meditate or you exercise, but you don't really do it for anybody

00:17:13.040 else.

00:17:13.360 But like, in my experience, when I'm doing something, when I'm trying to serve another

00:17:17.180 person, whether it's my family or the people I write for, like that pushes me beyond what

00:17:22.640 I think I'm capable of.

00:17:24.640 Absolutely.

00:17:25.240 And, and that, and that, that's borne out in all of these stories.

00:17:28.320 Um, I mean, it's exactly that they're willing to do more for someone else.

00:17:31.940 One, one of the guys, James Hassel, the Marine I was talking about earlier, he said, uh,

00:17:37.160 that the fear wasn't dying himself.

00:17:40.940 Uh, you know, he, he, he was sort of over that.

00:17:43.880 Uh, the fear was that he would do something wrong that, or, or not, did not do enough.

00:17:48.940 Uh, and that that would result in someone else, another Marine dying.

00:17:52.620 He said that was the motivation to do anything.

00:17:55.260 It wasn't about himself.

00:17:56.500 He said, if I died, but I saved other Marines in doing so, I would be successful.

00:18:01.700 I would be happy with that.

00:18:03.200 And just a mind boggling concept.

00:18:05.380 And, and, and that was something that's just so inspiring and exactly what you're talking

00:18:08.820 about.

00:18:09.000 They're willing to do so much more on behalf of their teammates, uh, than, than perhaps

00:18:14.280 even, uh, you know, for themselves.

00:18:16.100 Yeah.

00:18:16.300 That, that, that, that example, right.

00:18:18.340 There's a perfect example of just traditional honor, right?

00:18:21.200 Like you, it's all about the, it's all about the team.

00:18:24.320 That's what it, that's what honor is.

00:18:25.520 And I think, and I think in America and in the West, like we, most civilians don't understand

00:18:29.820 that sort of honor.

00:18:30.540 Like for us, honor is like integrity, personal integrity.

00:18:33.240 I live by my code, but honor in the sense that what the Romans talked about and what

00:18:38.060 Theodore Roosevelt talked about, that still exists in combat today.

00:18:42.040 That's, it's really cool.

00:18:43.860 Here's a question I have.

00:18:45.420 How did you get these men to open up about their stories?

00:18:49.640 Because most soldiers, particularly ones who have been, um, awarded medals or distinctions

00:18:56.540 for combat or for, uh, valor, they're very hesitant to talk about it.

00:19:01.220 They're very humble.

00:19:01.960 They'll just say things like, Oh, I was just doing my job, but your stories are very detailed,

00:19:06.280 like you said.

00:19:07.720 So how did you get them to, to open up and talk?

00:19:10.220 Well, first of all, I should say, none of them wanted to tell their story.

00:19:15.900 They all said exactly what you're talking about.

00:19:18.640 I'm not a hero.

00:19:19.800 I did what anyone else would have done.

00:19:21.640 I just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

00:19:23.580 And frequently they said, I'm not the hero.

00:19:25.400 It's the guy next to me that was the hero.

00:19:27.240 So, I mean, it's just stunning how, and they really believe it, by the way, that this was

00:19:30.960 not some sort of like talking points that they have.

00:19:33.800 Um, they really genuinely believe it.

00:19:36.240 And so they bristle when I would use the term hero.

00:19:38.820 In fact, I frequently would not use the term hero or heroic or anything like that.

00:19:43.720 Um, I would just say, you know, it's pretty cool what you did, you know, and can you tell

00:19:47.520 me about it?

00:19:48.000 But, but in order to get them to participate in the project, it was a very difficult.

00:19:52.520 I basically had to, you know, beg and plead with them, uh, you know, and, uh, and, and

00:19:57.920 to get them to, to, to tell their story.

00:20:00.200 And what I told them was, and I wasn't, I wasn't, you know, playing.

00:20:03.220 Uh, playing fast and loose or anything like that.

00:20:05.360 It was very obvious about it.

00:20:06.380 I said, look, you know, these stories need to be told and, and it's not about you and

00:20:09.840 your story.

00:20:10.380 It's about using your story as an example for what everyone's doing, for what all the

00:20:14.340 tens of thousands of men and women are doing overseas.

00:20:16.940 And in order to, to, to, to share, spread the word about what all of you are doing, uh,

00:20:21.520 you know, I need to tell some stories and, and, and, and, you know, yours is one.

00:20:24.780 And, and, uh, and, and I think they, they, they believed in that again, it was, it was

00:20:29.100 shifting it away from them as an individual and more about the group.

00:20:31.760 Uh, and they believed in that.

00:20:33.280 And the other thing was that, you know, I told them that I am donating, uh, you know,

00:20:37.360 a significant portion of the proceeds to military and veterans related charities.

00:20:40.620 So I think that helped them, uh, you know, get over the fact that they were, you know,

00:20:44.580 didn't want to hold themselves out as being exceptional, um, but they would do it for a

00:20:48.240 better cause maybe.

00:20:49.420 Uh, so I think that helped, but in terms of like actually sharing the details, um, which

00:20:54.040 I think is part of your question as well, um, is, well, I'm a trained investigator.

00:20:58.520 This is what I do for a living.

00:20:59.720 I'm an attorney and I conduct investigations, uh, and I've done that for a long time.

00:21:04.200 And so, uh, these were akin to depositions or, you know, uh, witness interviews that

00:21:10.620 I've done, you know, a large number of times.

00:21:13.900 Um, and so what I, you know, what I did was I treated it like that, uh, where I would,

00:21:18.580 uh, you know, interview them and, and, and, you know, drill down into the details, uh, and,

00:21:24.920 and extract as much information from them as possible.

00:21:27.580 And one of the guys, one of the guys told his wife, um, you know, this guy doesn't get

00:21:32.320 it.

00:21:32.440 He keeps asking me the same question over and over again.

00:21:34.400 And that's, you know, one of my standard tactics is keep, you know, keep asking, keep

00:21:38.020 asking.

00:21:38.520 There's always more there.

00:21:40.160 Um, and, uh, and, and that was it.

00:21:42.260 It was, it was basically deposing them and, and asking them, you know, difficult questions.

00:21:46.340 And, and I will give them all very huge credit because they all stuck with me.

00:21:51.700 They all answered my questions.

00:21:53.020 They never said no, uh, they never bristled at the questions.

00:21:56.400 Um, you know, there was a lot of crying.

00:21:58.460 There was, there was a lot of very difficult moments crying by them, crying by me.

00:22:02.800 I was so moved by what they were telling me.

00:22:05.260 Uh, I mean, these stories of, you know, individuals, you know, literally dying in their arms.

00:22:09.300 I mean, you need, you get choked up just, just hearing it.

00:22:12.260 And, uh, uh, it was, it was really emotional.

00:22:15.260 Uh, there are also some really funny moments too.

00:22:17.260 I mean, some, you know, laugh out loud, funny moments, um, where, uh, you know, I had to,

00:22:21.620 I had to, uh, stop the recorder for a second because I was chuckling so loud.

00:22:26.180 Um, so, uh, anyway, it was, it was just a wide range of, uh, of emotions, but, uh, getting,

00:22:31.320 getting the details from them was no easy feat.

00:22:32.980 Let me tell you.

00:22:33.420 Well, I, I'm glad you were persistent because, uh, um, I'm, I feel fortunate to, to have read

00:22:38.420 these stories.

00:22:39.020 So let's get into, uh, give people a taste of what's in your book.

00:22:44.420 Are there any stories in particular that stand out to you or were some of your personal favorites?

00:22:50.880 I know it's like picking children, but what's something, what's a story in the book that

00:22:55.400 you were particularly like?

00:22:57.800 Well, yeah, as you said, it is like picking children.

00:23:00.580 I couldn't possibly like, you know, folks have asked me, what would, do I have a favorite?

00:23:03.680 No, there's, I mean, I love them all.

00:23:05.820 I, and I do actually have some level of love for these guys.

00:23:09.840 I mean, I, you know, I, I, I feel kinship with them, but there are a couple of stories

00:23:13.440 that are interesting on, on multiple different levels.

00:23:16.420 And I think that's, that's what, what gets me a little bit.

00:23:19.580 Like one guy, Mike Waltz, he, uh, was a special forces commander, a reserve special

00:23:24.300 forces commander who was leading a squad in, uh, in a very remote village in Afghanistan.

00:23:30.220 And they had heard words, there were insurgents there.

00:23:32.440 And, and Mike had, uh, you know, was leading his squad through the, through the village

00:23:36.640 doing a regular patrol and, and they had been paired up with an Afghan unit.

00:23:40.900 And Mike had grown to really admire, uh, the sergeant major of the Afghan unit and that

00:23:46.920 this guy, Sumar, and he really respected him and he got to know him.

00:23:50.560 And, and, you know, he asked Sumar, he said, well, you know, why are you in the army?

00:23:54.360 Uh, you know, putting yourself and your family at risk.

00:23:56.160 And he said, you know, essentially that he was doing it so that he could, he could give his

00:23:59.280 children a better life and, and, and, you know, have his sons, you know, earn enough

00:24:04.060 money so that his sons wouldn't have to go to the madrasas where they would get fundamentalized,

00:24:07.440 you know, radicalized.

00:24:08.680 And so, uh, uh, Mike, you know, grew to love this guy and it was really interesting.

00:24:12.520 And they had developed this, this sort of relationship, even though they were going

00:24:15.460 through an interpreter this whole time.

00:24:16.980 Um, and, uh, fast forward, uh, you know, to the next day and they're on a patrol and

00:24:22.120 there's an ambush and, uh, you know, machine guns mowing them down and Mike stands up and

00:24:29.160 he is literally firing against these two machine guns that are very, very close, essentially

00:24:34.120 point blank range.

00:24:35.060 And Mike is standing there in the middle of this riverbed shooting back at them with

00:24:39.400 just a pistol.

00:24:40.860 He's not wearing his helmet.

00:24:42.640 He doesn't have any grenades and he is firing back with a pistol.

00:24:45.660 I mean, it's this, if you get the image in your mind, it's unbelievable.

00:24:49.360 One of the, one of the medic that was in his unit who was standing there watching all

00:24:52.960 this said he, when he looked from his perspective, they were so close that the fire from the machine

00:25:00.520 guns and from Mike's gun were essentially touching.

00:25:03.780 That's how close they were.

00:25:05.180 And I'm just so captivating this moment, but then here's the part, it gets even better.

00:25:09.900 So Mike eventually, uh, he goes for, dives for cover behind this little tiny stone wall.

00:25:15.080 And he saw that Sumar had gotten shot.

00:25:19.300 And so he runs out into the kill zone, right?

00:25:22.860 He, you know, the insurgents could start firing at any moment, but Mike runs out into the kill

00:25:26.440 zone and grabs Sumar and he's dragging him back into behind this wall, trying to, trying

00:25:32.380 to protect him.

00:25:33.380 And as he's dragging him, Sumar, he hears his last breath.

00:25:36.840 He hears Sumar die in his hands, in his arms.

00:25:40.220 And, uh, it was, you know, obviously a tragic moment.

00:25:45.440 Fast forward a bit, they survived the, that firefight.

00:25:49.600 And Mike later heard that Sumar's family had to send their kids to the madrasas because

00:25:57.280 they couldn't afford the other schools.

00:25:58.840 And so Mike, on his own, spending his own money, began to support Sumar's family.

00:26:08.360 He would wire money, figured out this way to wire money to a remote Afghan, Afghan family

00:26:15.020 in order to pull those boys out of the madrasa so that they wouldn't be radicalizing even

00:26:21.200 more kids.

00:26:21.940 And, uh, it, Mike has been giving them money, you know, for years now, and, uh, he's never

00:26:28.360 met them.

00:26:29.260 He just knew Sumar.

00:26:30.480 And I just found that so captivating, not just the fact that he was fighting against

00:26:34.200 these machine guns at essentially point-flank range with a pistol, but that he would do

00:26:39.700 all that.

00:26:40.080 He would run back in and save, try to save Sumar's life and then literally support the

00:26:44.720 family all on his own, his own money.

00:26:46.400 I just found that overwhelming and, uh, just so inspiring.

00:26:50.020 Yeah.

00:26:50.460 Yeah.

00:26:50.660 I really, that was one of my favorites.

00:26:52.340 Um, I mean, all of them are great, but that one really, uh, uh, touched me.

00:26:56.440 Um, but, uh, yeah, I mean, there's just, there's so many, there's how many, there's nine total

00:27:00.880 stories?

00:27:01.840 Nine total.

00:27:02.340 And I could talk about each one of them like that.

00:27:04.120 I mean, that, you know, it just, the, the, the thing about, you know, supporting the family

00:27:07.860 just kind of kicked it up a notch that I, that, you know, if anyone, if folks are going

00:27:11.600 to hear about any one story, I think that's a, that's a, that's a good one to hear

00:27:14.520 about, but I'm happy to talk about the others.

00:27:16.400 I mean, uh, uh, one of the guys we had talked about, James Hassel earlier and, uh, Marine

00:27:21.740 Grunt, who was in an awful firefight in the Jaffa and, uh, one of his comrades, like I

00:27:27.340 said, was brutally, I mean, awfully injured by, uh, shrapnel, uh, from one of the insurgents.

00:27:33.460 And, uh, they knew he was going to die if they didn't get him to the medevac unit.

00:27:37.400 Medevac unit was about a hundred yards down an alley.

00:27:40.200 The problem was there were insurgents shooting directly into that alley.

00:27:45.520 And so they said, we got to get, we got to get Ryan out.

00:27:48.560 And James reached his hand up and said, throw him on my back, throw him on my back.

00:27:54.480 That's what he said right then and there, no hesitation.

00:27:57.340 And, uh, and that's what they did.

00:27:58.620 And James, as he's about to leave this building, go out into the crossfire, uh, you know, where

00:28:03.880 insurgents are literally shooting right down where he would be running.

00:28:06.760 And he fought back to a promise that he had made his mother, that he was going to come

00:28:13.300 back to her, uh, from Iraq in one piece.

00:28:16.040 And he actually thought to himself at that moment, I'm about to break that promise.

00:28:20.280 He thought he was going to die, but he wasn't going to let Ryan die.

00:28:24.080 He was at least going to give it a shot.

00:28:26.480 And that's what he thought as soon as, and just as bad as he's going to run into this,

00:28:30.260 into this alley.

00:28:31.280 And then he goes and, uh, he runs down and I try to slow down time.

00:28:35.660 Um, and present each step essentially, as he's running down this alley.

00:28:41.440 Uh, and, uh, long story short, he, uh, you know, he saved Ryan's life.

00:28:45.820 He literally saved Ryan's life by carrying him, uh, down, down that alley to the helicopter.

00:28:51.680 And I had these amazing moments.

00:28:53.500 I had this interview with Ryan about what it was like to be carried on James's back as

00:28:59.100 the bullets are ringing out.

00:29:00.300 And he was pretty sure he was going to die, not just from the shrapnel, but from getting

00:29:04.220 shot, just the, you know, just the moment of, of when they turned the corner away from

00:29:09.340 the shooting, uh, you know, just this celebratory moment was, uh, was, was pretty cool.

00:29:13.980 It was, uh, it was a pretty, pretty good story.

00:29:16.580 Um, and, uh, you know, as you know, cause you've read the book, it's got a bit of a tragic

00:29:20.800 ending.

00:29:21.220 Uh, because James, after he left the Marine Corps, uh, came home and, uh, at 30 years

00:29:30.060 old, uh, out of nowhere, he just collapsed in his kitchen Monday over Labor Day weekend

00:29:34.460 and, uh, tragic, tragic story.

00:29:37.340 He never, he never came to, uh, and his wife, uh, he's survived by a, you know, beautiful

00:29:42.220 wife and lovely four-year-old daughter.

00:29:44.620 Uh, it's just a tragic story that he could do something so heroic, so amazing overseas,

00:29:48.620 literally saving lives.

00:29:50.700 Um, but then he, you know, had his, uh, life tragically cut short and, you know, there's,

00:29:54.820 there's an amazing coda on top of that, frankly, uh, that he was an organ donor and his wife

00:29:59.960 just told me not too long ago that James's organs were then donated to a number of people

00:30:05.980 and he, she heard back that his organs actually saved four people's lives.

00:30:11.900 Wow.

00:30:12.380 So even in, even in death, James Hassel was saving lives.

00:30:16.660 Pretty incredible, pretty inspirational.

00:30:18.060 That's amazing.

00:30:19.080 Well, I mean, we could talk about each of them, but I don't want to, because I want people

00:30:21.500 to go out there and get your book and, and read these stories for themselves.

00:30:25.460 I can imagine that talking to these men and then writing their stories down has changed

00:30:32.320 you.

00:30:32.780 How has writing this book made you a better man?

00:30:35.720 A couple of different ways.

00:30:36.740 There are lessons from these guys and, and, and I've really tried to incorporate them.

00:30:41.200 One of them is, you know, perspective, frankly.

00:30:44.400 A couple of these guys, I mean, all of them believed they were going to die at some point

00:30:48.120 during, during their, during the stories that I tell, the incidents that I described.

00:30:52.300 Um, and I think about, I actually think about what they were going through in, in my moments

00:30:58.260 of stress.

00:30:58.960 And they, they seemed so small, so, so petty.

00:31:02.440 Uh, there was one guy who, who, Dan Foster, who single-handedly held off an insurgent

00:31:09.160 ambush, the ambush of his little remote, remote outpost.

00:31:11.780 And, and, and he had suffered major, major injuries.

00:31:15.880 And he looked in a mirror at one point, back in the medic's tent, and he saw this awful,

00:31:21.400 these awful injuries to his face.

00:31:23.020 He lost 13 teeth, substantial bone structure in his upper and lower jaws.

00:31:26.540 I mean, it was a disaster.

00:31:27.300 It was awful.

00:31:28.500 But Dan went back into the fight after he saw those injuries in the mirror.

00:31:33.260 And so when I'm having a difficult time with my first world problems, I actually think

00:31:38.980 about the moment that Dan Foster looked in the mirror and went back into the fight.

00:31:43.140 So when, when you ask, how have I, you know, changed, how has this improved my life?

00:31:47.920 I think I've gotten some perspective where, you know, before, if my Wi-Fi went down, I

00:31:52.820 would get really pissed.

00:31:54.480 But now I actually think about Dan Foster, and I try to get a bit of perspective on the

00:31:58.780 situation, um, that my problems aren't so bad.

00:32:02.140 And, uh, you know, I think about these guys, Chris Choi, an Afghan, I mean, a, uh, army

00:32:06.300 paratrooper who was in Afghanistan earned a silver star at one point, did something truly

00:32:11.480 incredible, and he called it the loneliest moment of my life.

00:32:14.100 He thought he was going to die. 0.99

00:32:16.260 And, you know, I think about that when some idiot cuts me off in traffic, and I'm about 1.00

00:32:21.420 to lose my cool. 0.99

00:32:22.880 Uh, I actually think about Chris Choi, about how he didn't lose his cool in the loneliest

00:32:27.740 moment of his life when he thought he was going to die.

00:32:29.780 And he then proceeded to do something incredible and heroic.

00:32:33.600 I actually try to think about those guys and, and incorporate their, you know, their experiences

00:32:39.600 in my life, uh, to make me a better person.

00:32:42.040 And I think that's a good lesson for all of us, frankly.

00:32:44.760 A bit of perspective really will kind of make you, you know, reduce the stress, you know,

00:32:50.180 make things, you know, roll like water off the duck's back, uh, a bit more in our lives.

00:32:55.560 Very good.

00:32:56.140 Well, our time is coming to an end.

00:32:57.920 There's so much more we could talk about, but, um, where can people find out more about

00:33:01.640 your book, Valor?

00:33:03.600 Uh, on my website, markleegreenblatt.com.

00:33:07.120 Uh, and one very cool feature about it, which I invite everyone to, uh, to use is, uh, I have

00:33:13.020 set it up that folks can go on and email directly with the heroes.

00:33:16.820 So they can email, you know, the guys that we talked about, Mike Waltz, uh, Chris Choi,

00:33:22.220 you know, all the folks we talked about.

00:33:23.860 And, uh, for the, there are two of them, James and, and, uh, Chris Kyle passed away since

00:33:29.580 they returned home, but folks can email their families.

00:33:32.720 Uh, and what, you know, I would invite people to reach out and share their thoughts about

00:33:37.920 hearing their stories and, uh, you know, feel free to ask questions or even if they just

00:33:41.320 want to say thanks.

00:33:42.220 Uh, these are great guys and, and I know they would want to hear from people.

00:33:46.100 Uh, and, and, you know, I think they'll interact.

00:33:48.020 Um, so I would invite you to, you know, go on and, uh, shoot them an email and, and you'll

00:33:52.620 probably get a, you know, probably get a response.

00:33:54.760 That's awesome.

00:33:55.680 Mark Greenblatt.

00:33:56.420 Thank you so much for your time.

00:33:57.380 It's been a pleasure.

00:33:58.340 Thanks so much, Brett.

00:33:59.080 This has been great.

00:34:00.240 Our guest today was Mark Greenblatt.

00:34:01.980 He is the author of the book, Valor, Unsung Heroes from Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Homefront.

00:34:07.100 You can find that on amazon.com or bookstores everywhere.

00:34:10.600 Also make sure to check out his website, markleegreenblatt.com.

00:34:14.560 And you can actually email some of the heroes that he highlights in his book, Valor.

00:34:19.240 A pretty cool thing.

00:34:20.520 So it's markgreenblatt.com.

00:34:23.460 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:34:27.080 For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at

00:34:30.640 artofmanliness.com.

00:34:32.280 And again, if you enjoy this podcast, you've gotten something out of it, I'd really appreciate

00:34:36.320 it if you take the time to give us a review on iTunes or Stitch or whatever.

00:34:39.700 That would help us get the word out about the podcast and let more people know about it.

00:34:43.300 So yeah, please do that.

00:34:44.660 Until next time, stay manly.

The Art of Manliness - June 20, 2014

#73： Valor With Mark Greenblatt

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript