#73： Valor With Mark Greenblatt
Episode Stats
Words per Minute
194.45428
Summary
Mark Lee Greenblatt is the author of the book, Valor: Unsung Heroes from Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Homefront. In this episode, he talks about why we don't have enough stories about American soldiers serving overseas.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:00:20.760
So in American history and culture, we have our famous war heroes from the Civil War,
00:00:26.700
from the Revolutionary War, World War I and World War II.
00:00:29.940
These were men who were celebrated for their acts of bravery in the battlefield.
00:00:34.580
People like Sergeant York, George Washington, etc.
00:00:37.520
But it seems like these two most recent wars we've been involved in,
00:00:41.680
the Afghanistan war and the war in Iraq, we don't really have those sort of superstar heroes.
00:00:47.880
But the thing is, there's some really heroic things going on.
00:00:51.460
There's some men who are doing just amazing things and just dire situations.
00:00:56.700
And our guest today wanted to find out why that is, and he wanted to correct that.
00:01:01.380
His name is Mark Lee Greenblatt, and he is the author of the book Valor,
00:01:05.480
Unsung Heroes from Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Homefront.
00:01:09.020
And in today's podcast, Mark and I talk about why don't we know more about some of these brave men
00:01:14.060
who are fighting overseas and some of the things that they've done.
00:01:18.260
And then we talk about some of the men that he writes about in his book and what they did
00:01:22.820
and their acts of bravery and valor that they displayed.
00:01:25.700
And then we also talk about what lessons we can learn from these men.
00:01:43.580
I got to tell you before we start that I am such a huge, huge fan of the art of manliness.
00:01:50.740
Steve Pressfield's interview was great about the turning pro and Battle of Thermopylae and everything like that.
00:02:00.000
This is one of my favorite things to listen to.
00:02:06.280
So your book is called Valor, Unsung Heroes from Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Homefront.
00:02:14.940
First off, what inspired you to write this book?
00:02:18.600
Well, back in 2007 and 2008, I went to these awards banquets where they honored military heroes.
00:02:26.340
And they would recite the stories of what these men and women had done.
00:02:32.460
And, you know, there was not a dry eye in the house at these big gala events.
00:02:38.160
Everyone's crying about how amazing, how inspirational they were.
00:02:42.140
And I remember thinking to myself, how come no one knows these guys?
00:02:45.900
How come, you know, they'll be lucky to be bagging groceries if they get a job in the first place?
00:02:52.440
You know, whereas in the past, you know, war heroes came home and they were household names.
00:02:58.260
And we had ticker tape parades for them in their communities.
00:03:07.640
I said, these people, you know, we need to know their stories.
00:03:10.960
And that was really the moment when I said, this is something I've got to do.
00:03:18.160
As I was reading these stories of these men in combat, I kept on wondering, like, why haven't I heard about these guys?
00:03:26.040
Because you hear, there's a few that I know about.
00:03:31.160
And like, you're right, like back in World War I and World War II, war heroes were household names.
00:03:38.240
Like, they even make movies about them, like, during the actual war, while the war was still going on, ticker tape parades.
00:03:45.920
So why is it that these past two wars, the one in Iraq and Afghanistan, failed to produce the superstar war heroes?
00:03:53.160
Because it's not anything that the men have done.
00:03:56.820
But something's going on on the home front that's not allowing that to happen.
00:04:03.200
I think it generally boils down to two, maybe more factors.
00:04:07.100
But the two that pop into my mind instantly are politics and the focus of the media, frankly.
00:04:13.240
You know, these wars were generally very political, particularly Iraq.
00:04:18.340
And, you know, if you think back to those days, 2005, 2006, 2007, those are dark days, I think, in American history, particularly when you talk about the wars.
00:04:27.240
And the debate was really frenzied and really nasty.
00:04:32.280
And amidst that turmoil, I think stories of selflessness became passe.
00:04:38.720
You know, heroes were sort of old news, and it was sort of romanticized to go the other way and find the stories that were bad.
00:04:48.380
And that was the balance that I was trying to fix.
00:04:51.540
I felt that it had gotten out of whack, that people would know very few American soldiers who were serving overseas.
00:04:59.620
And the few that they did know were for bad reasons, like Lindy England and the Abu Ghraib scandal.
00:05:04.640
Or for controversial reasons, like, you know, Pat Tillman or Jessica Lynch, we had no one that was just like Audie Murphy or Sergeant York in World War I.
00:05:16.460
And that was exactly the void I was trying to fill.
00:05:19.720
I think there was showing these kinds of stories, these positive stories, were viewed in the media as being biased in favor of the war and sort of propping up the Bush administration at a time when that was, I think, very passe.
00:05:37.840
And so I think that was those two things really created an atmosphere where stories of heroism just got lost.
00:05:44.780
Yeah. Do you think we're also, as a culture, uncomfortable with violence for good purposes?
00:05:51.360
I mean, even if it's used for good, do you think we're sort of uncomfortable kind of lauding, you know, war exploits?
00:06:01.340
You know, I would say that there's violence all around us.
00:06:03.960
I mean, you've looked at movies and video games.
00:06:07.340
You know, in a way, we've become desensitized to that sort of violence.
00:06:11.160
But I think there's also another factor that might be at play, which is that we have a bit of a disconnect between the folks who serve and their families and the folks who don't.
00:06:24.320
And I think that disconnect, you know, back in the day, everyone knew, you know, someone who was serving.
00:06:31.760
You know, it was either the guy down the block or someone in your own family.
00:06:35.340
Whereas now I think there's a chasm between those who are serving and those who aren't.
00:06:41.700
And so those folks don't have it in front of them and aren't so committed to knowing these stories and publicizing these stories.
00:06:48.660
And so I think that's a third factor that really goes into why these names are not, you know, household names like in years past.
00:06:57.140
Okay. I think I remember reading, and maybe I read this incorrectly, but do we give fewer medals for valor during the two most recent wars than we did in previous wars?
00:07:10.220
Yeah, I don't know about in toto, you know, in terms of all of the medals, but certainly with respect to the Medal of Honor, which is the one that gets the most notoriety,
00:07:18.380
I mean, you know, the most attention and really kind of frames, you know, the perception of these things in the American public, certainly those are way off.
00:07:28.880
In World War II, I think it was, it was one per 35,000.
00:07:34.340
And in the last two wars, it's something along the lines of one per every 115,000.
00:07:43.840
And part of the problem is the nature of the battles that we're facing, at least this is what I've read,
00:07:49.600
is that DOD regs say that the Medal of Honor has to involve enemy combatants.
00:07:55.780
And so when someone does something heroic in the face of, say, an IED attack, there's no actual enemy combatant.
00:08:02.340
And so for a while, I believe that held up or at least skewed the Medals of Honor, you know, versus in previous combat.
00:08:14.440
And I think there's an effort to change that or review that because that's really kind of changing the numbers
00:08:22.760
and therefore changing the perception of the wars in the way that we're talking about.
00:08:26.280
Okay. Another thing, as I was reading this, reminded me, because before I read Sebastian Junger's War,
00:08:35.340
and then your book reminded me of it, is just the tactical difficulty of these two most recent wars.
00:08:41.560
And I don't think a lot of Americans understand what the, what our fighting soldiers are facing,
00:08:48.500
or what they faced over there, in some cases still facing today.
00:08:51.260
Okay. How were the two most recent wars different from previous wars that we've been in?
00:09:00.540
Well, I think the big thing is, is that we're not fighting a known enemy,
00:09:04.340
in the sense that they're not wearing uniforms and they're not using sort of typical battle tactics.
00:09:11.240
They're just popping up as snipers in the middle of the street and using IEDs in a way that I think is different from previous engagements,
00:09:18.220
at least on the scale that we're seeing. And that has had a dramatic impact.
00:09:25.480
The, you know, one thing that, the impact on the guys, is that you can never really let your guard down.
00:09:31.360
You know, we've had so many infiltrations where purportedly friendly forces are then turning their weapons on Americans,
00:09:39.700
that our guys can't really put their guard down.
00:09:42.240
So there's no downtime. And that keeps them on edge for long, long periods of time.
00:09:48.520
And so I think that has, over the long haul, a really detrimental effect, at least what I heard,
00:09:54.100
was that it was, that was really hard, just keeping your, you know, your mind engaged at all times.
00:10:00.980
I mean, that gets old after a year-long, you know, deployment.
00:10:03.940
And so I think that change is really having an impact, and that's hurting them when they come back.
00:10:10.900
I think that's very difficult for them to deal with when they come back, because they're always on edge,
00:10:15.400
always looking for a long period of time, you know, looking around the corner,
00:10:19.440
looking at that debris in the street, wondering whether that's an IED.
00:10:23.780
And so when they're walking down the street in their hometown, they're reminded of these things,
00:10:29.360
And I think that weighs on them, and that really has had a dramatic impact.
00:10:33.940
Yeah, and I mean, I guess the Iraq War was a little more of a traditional war,
00:10:41.120
But like the Afghan, the war in Afghanistan, that was just crazy.
00:10:44.320
I mean, like, first off, Afghanistan is like, just a, the environment there is just crazy.
00:10:51.000
And then you have like these, you describe these, some of the encounters,
00:10:54.100
and they happen in these little small villages that have these winding goat trails.
00:10:59.140
And you, I mean, you don't, you really can't see what's coming at you.
00:11:05.460
I mean, it just, it just really, when I was reading that, it's just, I couldn't imagine being in those guys' place.
00:11:11.560
And I think the other thing that is, is that, you know, if you think about World War I, World War II,
00:11:18.520
They may not speak the language, but they know what a, you know, what a bakery looks like.
00:11:21.620
They know, you know, what's going on, you know, when the streets and the signs and, you know,
00:11:26.060
they can get some semblance of what's happening.
00:11:28.600
Whereas when you're in a rural village in Afghanistan, that is as far away as you can get.
00:11:34.840
I mean, one of the guys that I interviewed described the landscape as like walking on the moon.
00:11:39.680
You know, he was like literally in a different, in a different, you know, place in the universe
00:11:47.500
And I think doing that over and over again with languages that are so different and the
00:11:53.960
I mean, they couldn't really relate to the people, the goat herders that they were interacting
00:11:58.200
And I think that really over time, just, just really weighs on the guys in a way that's
00:12:03.460
different from previous wars where it's, you know, you can understand the terrain better.
00:12:08.540
Your brain is working less actively because you know what the church looks like and that
00:12:14.020
And so I think that, that has another impact as well.
00:12:16.380
So we'll get into some of the specific stories here in a bit, but before we do that, what
00:12:21.660
did all the men who you included in your book have in common?
00:12:26.160
Or, I mean, I guess what I'm saying is like, what traits gave them valor and made them a
00:12:34.260
One is this sense of brotherhood, this self, selflessness, this, this teamwork.
00:12:40.940
It's, it's overwhelming when you talk to these guys and the nine that I profiled, but also
00:12:45.660
the other folks that I interviewed, the other men and women in that, you know, that were
00:12:48.920
in, uh, in the stories, uh, this sense of brotherhood is unlike anything we see in civilian
00:12:55.380
I mean, the, the willingness to do anything, literally anything, uh, to save your buddy,
00:13:05.320
And I mean that in the actual, you know, real way, like it inspired awe in me that they were
00:13:12.380
It was just a fascinating, uh, you know, characteristic that I tried to convey to the readers.
00:13:18.040
I really tried to put them in their minds and convey that just their willingness to do so
00:13:25.060
The second thing is in each of the stories, the men had these moments amidst the maelstrom
00:13:31.820
going on around them where they were in relative safety.
00:13:35.600
And what I mean by that is like the bullets weren't firing directly at them.
00:13:38.860
They were inside the bill, inside the building when the, the shots were being fired in the
00:13:43.020
alleyway immediately outside, that sort of thing.
00:13:45.080
But in each of the stories, the heroes decided to put themselves in greater danger.
00:13:51.500
They left that position of relative safety and put themselves in greater danger in order
00:14:07.480
Uh, and you know, I was asking these guys, I mean, minute by minute, second by second, what
00:14:11.600
What's happening then what's happening then and try to place the reader in their bodies,
00:14:17.300
in their minds, as these dire circumstances are unfolding and say, what is making you think
00:14:22.400
about going into that, into the sniper spire or jumping into this swirling water in the
00:14:29.000
middle of the Atlantic in the middle of this horrific storm?
00:14:31.440
You know, what's making you jump in there and do that?
00:14:35.060
Uh, and, and that was just a fascinating moment.
00:14:37.520
And that was what I tried to capture for the readers.
00:14:39.140
Well, you did a good job capturing both the, the brotherhood and why these men made the
00:14:45.560
And yeah, I'll be honest when you're, when I was reading to these stories, talking about
00:14:48.920
brotherhood and something we've talked about on the site before, like talking about honor,
00:14:52.840
This idea that you, you, it's all about caring for your brotherhood and being concerned
00:15:02.760
And that was another common thread I saw among these guys.
00:15:09.480
And as I was reading these stories, like I'll admit, like, I was like, man, I, I want
00:15:13.480
to sign up just so I can experience that sort of brotherhood.
00:15:18.420
I don't think I've ever experienced anything like that or close to it.
00:15:21.260
Maybe it's something, you know, on a small magnitude, but I've, I'm sort of envious in
00:15:28.860
I don't envy like the, you know, being in, you know, having to worry about IEDs, but I envy
00:15:33.380
that, that sense of camaraderie and brotherhood.
00:15:36.820
And I think a lot of men probably want that in their life too.
00:15:42.820
I said, you know, there's that envy that, you know, you're just like, wow, that, that
00:15:46.400
is so captivating that you can be part of something that you would literally die for.
00:15:56.100
And, and, you know, one of the stories involved a guy named James Hassel, who literally carried
00:16:05.100
And, you know, both of them said they weren't particularly close, but it wasn't like they
00:16:11.140
It wasn't like they were, you know, soulmates or anything like that.
00:16:14.420
But James was like, that's, that's my teammate and I am not going to let him die.
00:16:20.360
And Chris Kyle of one of the Navy SEALs, he didn't even know the guy that he saved.
00:16:24.720
And he put himself in extraordinary danger, literally liberating a group of Marines he
00:16:31.460
did not know, you know, and single-handedly pushing off insurgent snipers to, to, to liberate
00:16:39.980
And he didn't even know them, uh, it was just that, that sort of generic, uh, team
00:16:49.320
I mean, I love the idea of that self-sacrifice forces you to, when you're doing something
00:16:55.080
for others, you push yourself beyond your limits.
00:16:58.580
I feel like, cause I feel like in America, at least right now, there's this sort of idea
00:17:05.240
And it's all about doing stuff for yourself, right?
00:17:08.180
You do like, you know, you meditate or you exercise, but you don't really do it for anybody
00:17:13.360
But like, in my experience, when I'm doing something, when I'm trying to serve another
00:17:17.180
person, whether it's my family or the people I write for, like that pushes me beyond what
00:17:25.240
And, and that, and that, that's borne out in all of these stories.
00:17:28.320
Um, I mean, it's exactly that they're willing to do more for someone else.
00:17:31.940
One, one of the guys, James Hassel, the Marine I was talking about earlier, he said, uh,
00:17:40.940
Uh, you know, he, he, he was sort of over that.
00:17:43.880
Uh, the fear was that he would do something wrong that, or, or not, did not do enough.
00:17:48.940
Uh, and that that would result in someone else, another Marine dying.
00:17:52.620
He said that was the motivation to do anything.
00:17:56.500
He said, if I died, but I saved other Marines in doing so, I would be successful.
00:18:05.380
And, and, and that was something that's just so inspiring and exactly what you're talking
00:18:09.000
They're willing to do so much more on behalf of their teammates, uh, than, than perhaps
00:18:18.340
There's a perfect example of just traditional honor, right?
00:18:21.200
Like you, it's all about the, it's all about the team.
00:18:25.520
And I think, and I think in America and in the West, like we, most civilians don't understand
00:18:30.540
Like for us, honor is like integrity, personal integrity.
00:18:33.240
I live by my code, but honor in the sense that what the Romans talked about and what
00:18:38.060
Theodore Roosevelt talked about, that still exists in combat today.
00:18:45.420
How did you get these men to open up about their stories?
00:18:49.640
Because most soldiers, particularly ones who have been, um, awarded medals or distinctions
00:18:56.540
for combat or for, uh, valor, they're very hesitant to talk about it.
00:19:01.960
They'll just say things like, Oh, I was just doing my job, but your stories are very detailed,
00:19:07.720
So how did you get them to, to open up and talk?
00:19:10.220
Well, first of all, I should say, none of them wanted to tell their story.
00:19:15.900
They all said exactly what you're talking about.
00:19:21.640
I just happened to be in the right place at the right time.
00:19:27.240
So, I mean, it's just stunning how, and they really believe it, by the way, that this was
00:19:30.960
not some sort of like talking points that they have.
00:19:36.240
And so they bristle when I would use the term hero.
00:19:38.820
In fact, I frequently would not use the term hero or heroic or anything like that.
00:19:43.720
Um, I would just say, you know, it's pretty cool what you did, you know, and can you tell
00:19:48.000
But, but in order to get them to participate in the project, it was a very difficult.
00:19:52.520
I basically had to, you know, beg and plead with them, uh, you know, and, uh, and, and
00:20:00.200
And what I told them was, and I wasn't, I wasn't, you know, playing.
00:20:03.220
Uh, playing fast and loose or anything like that.
00:20:06.380
I said, look, you know, these stories need to be told and, and it's not about you and
00:20:10.380
It's about using your story as an example for what everyone's doing, for what all the
00:20:14.340
tens of thousands of men and women are doing overseas.
00:20:16.940
And in order to, to, to, to share, spread the word about what all of you are doing, uh,
00:20:21.520
you know, I need to tell some stories and, and, and, and, you know, yours is one.
00:20:24.780
And, and, uh, and, and I think they, they, they believed in that again, it was, it was
00:20:29.100
shifting it away from them as an individual and more about the group.
00:20:33.280
And the other thing was that, you know, I told them that I am donating, uh, you know,
00:20:37.360
a significant portion of the proceeds to military and veterans related charities.
00:20:40.620
So I think that helped them, uh, you know, get over the fact that they were, you know,
00:20:44.580
didn't want to hold themselves out as being exceptional, um, but they would do it for a
00:20:49.420
Uh, so I think that helped, but in terms of like actually sharing the details, um, which
00:20:54.040
I think is part of your question as well, um, is, well, I'm a trained investigator.
00:20:59.720
I'm an attorney and I conduct investigations, uh, and I've done that for a long time.
00:21:04.200
And so, uh, these were akin to depositions or, you know, uh, witness interviews that
00:21:13.900
Um, and so what I, you know, what I did was I treated it like that, uh, where I would,
00:21:18.580
uh, you know, interview them and, and, and, you know, drill down into the details, uh, and,
00:21:24.920
and extract as much information from them as possible.
00:21:27.580
And one of the guys, one of the guys told his wife, um, you know, this guy doesn't get
00:21:32.440
He keeps asking me the same question over and over again.
00:21:34.400
And that's, you know, one of my standard tactics is keep, you know, keep asking, keep
00:21:42.260
It was, it was basically deposing them and, and asking them, you know, difficult questions.
00:21:46.340
And, and I will give them all very huge credit because they all stuck with me.
00:21:53.020
They never said no, uh, they never bristled at the questions.
00:21:58.460
There was, there was a lot of very difficult moments crying by them, crying by me.
00:22:05.260
Uh, I mean, these stories of, you know, individuals, you know, literally dying in their arms.
00:22:09.300
I mean, you need, you get choked up just, just hearing it.
00:22:15.260
Uh, there are also some really funny moments too.
00:22:17.260
I mean, some, you know, laugh out loud, funny moments, um, where, uh, you know, I had to,
00:22:21.620
I had to, uh, stop the recorder for a second because I was chuckling so loud.
00:22:26.180
Um, so, uh, anyway, it was, it was just a wide range of, uh, of emotions, but, uh, getting,
00:22:31.320
getting the details from them was no easy feat.
00:22:33.420
Well, I, I'm glad you were persistent because, uh, um, I'm, I feel fortunate to, to have read
00:22:39.020
So let's get into, uh, give people a taste of what's in your book.
00:22:44.420
Are there any stories in particular that stand out to you or were some of your personal favorites?
00:22:50.880
I know it's like picking children, but what's something, what's a story in the book that
00:22:57.800
Well, yeah, as you said, it is like picking children.
00:23:00.580
I couldn't possibly like, you know, folks have asked me, what would, do I have a favorite?
00:23:05.820
I, and I do actually have some level of love for these guys.
00:23:09.840
I mean, I, you know, I, I, I feel kinship with them, but there are a couple of stories
00:23:13.440
that are interesting on, on multiple different levels.
00:23:16.420
And I think that's, that's what, what gets me a little bit.
00:23:19.580
Like one guy, Mike Waltz, he, uh, was a special forces commander, a reserve special
00:23:24.300
forces commander who was leading a squad in, uh, in a very remote village in Afghanistan.
00:23:30.220
And they had heard words, there were insurgents there.
00:23:32.440
And, and Mike had, uh, you know, was leading his squad through the, through the village
00:23:36.640
doing a regular patrol and, and they had been paired up with an Afghan unit.
00:23:40.900
And Mike had grown to really admire, uh, the sergeant major of the Afghan unit and that
00:23:46.920
this guy, Sumar, and he really respected him and he got to know him.
00:23:50.560
And, and, you know, he asked Sumar, he said, well, you know, why are you in the army?
00:23:54.360
Uh, you know, putting yourself and your family at risk.
00:23:56.160
And he said, you know, essentially that he was doing it so that he could, he could give his
00:23:59.280
children a better life and, and, and, you know, have his sons, you know, earn enough
00:24:04.060
money so that his sons wouldn't have to go to the madrasas where they would get fundamentalized,
00:24:08.680
And so, uh, uh, Mike, you know, grew to love this guy and it was really interesting.
00:24:12.520
And they had developed this, this sort of relationship, even though they were going
00:24:16.980
Um, and, uh, fast forward, uh, you know, to the next day and they're on a patrol and
00:24:22.120
there's an ambush and, uh, you know, machine guns mowing them down and Mike stands up and
00:24:29.160
he is literally firing against these two machine guns that are very, very close, essentially
00:24:35.060
And Mike is standing there in the middle of this riverbed shooting back at them with
00:24:42.640
He doesn't have any grenades and he is firing back with a pistol.
00:24:45.660
I mean, it's this, if you get the image in your mind, it's unbelievable.
00:24:49.360
One of the, one of the medic that was in his unit who was standing there watching all
00:24:52.960
this said he, when he looked from his perspective, they were so close that the fire from the machine
00:25:00.520
guns and from Mike's gun were essentially touching.
00:25:05.180
And I'm just so captivating this moment, but then here's the part, it gets even better.
00:25:09.900
So Mike eventually, uh, he goes for, dives for cover behind this little tiny stone wall.
00:25:22.860
He, you know, the insurgents could start firing at any moment, but Mike runs out into the kill
00:25:26.440
zone and grabs Sumar and he's dragging him back into behind this wall, trying to, trying
00:25:33.380
And as he's dragging him, Sumar, he hears his last breath.
00:25:40.220
And, uh, it was, you know, obviously a tragic moment.
00:25:45.440
Fast forward a bit, they survived the, that firefight.
00:25:49.600
And Mike later heard that Sumar's family had to send their kids to the madrasas because
00:25:58.840
And so Mike, on his own, spending his own money, began to support Sumar's family.
00:26:08.360
He would wire money, figured out this way to wire money to a remote Afghan, Afghan family
00:26:15.020
in order to pull those boys out of the madrasa so that they wouldn't be radicalizing even
00:26:21.940
And, uh, it, Mike has been giving them money, you know, for years now, and, uh, he's never
00:26:30.480
And I just found that so captivating, not just the fact that he was fighting against
00:26:34.200
these machine guns at essentially point-flank range with a pistol, but that he would do
00:26:40.080
He would run back in and save, try to save Sumar's life and then literally support the
00:26:46.400
I just found that overwhelming and, uh, just so inspiring.
00:26:52.340
Um, I mean, all of them are great, but that one really, uh, uh, touched me.
00:26:56.440
Um, but, uh, yeah, I mean, there's just, there's so many, there's how many, there's nine total
00:27:02.340
And I could talk about each one of them like that.
00:27:04.120
I mean, that, you know, it just, the, the, the thing about, you know, supporting the family
00:27:07.860
just kind of kicked it up a notch that I, that, you know, if anyone, if folks are going
00:27:11.600
to hear about any one story, I think that's a, that's a, that's a good one to hear
00:27:16.400
I mean, uh, uh, one of the guys we had talked about, James Hassel earlier and, uh, Marine
00:27:21.740
Grunt, who was in an awful firefight in the Jaffa and, uh, one of his comrades, like I
00:27:27.340
said, was brutally, I mean, awfully injured by, uh, shrapnel, uh, from one of the insurgents.
00:27:33.460
And, uh, they knew he was going to die if they didn't get him to the medevac unit.
00:27:37.400
Medevac unit was about a hundred yards down an alley.
00:27:40.200
The problem was there were insurgents shooting directly into that alley.
00:27:45.520
And so they said, we got to get, we got to get Ryan out.
00:27:48.560
And James reached his hand up and said, throw him on my back, throw him on my back.
00:27:54.480
That's what he said right then and there, no hesitation.
00:27:58.620
And James, as he's about to leave this building, go out into the crossfire, uh, you know, where
00:28:03.880
insurgents are literally shooting right down where he would be running.
00:28:06.760
And he fought back to a promise that he had made his mother, that he was going to come
00:28:16.040
And he actually thought to himself at that moment, I'm about to break that promise.
00:28:20.280
He thought he was going to die, but he wasn't going to let Ryan die.
00:28:26.480
And that's what he thought as soon as, and just as bad as he's going to run into this,
00:28:31.280
And then he goes and, uh, he runs down and I try to slow down time.
00:28:35.660
Um, and present each step essentially, as he's running down this alley.
00:28:41.440
Uh, and, uh, long story short, he, uh, you know, he saved Ryan's life.
00:28:45.820
He literally saved Ryan's life by carrying him, uh, down, down that alley to the helicopter.
00:28:53.500
I had this interview with Ryan about what it was like to be carried on James's back as
00:29:00.300
And he was pretty sure he was going to die, not just from the shrapnel, but from getting
00:29:04.220
shot, just the, you know, just the moment of, of when they turned the corner away from
00:29:09.340
the shooting, uh, you know, just this celebratory moment was, uh, was, was pretty cool.
00:29:13.980
It was, uh, it was a pretty, pretty good story.
00:29:16.580
Um, and, uh, you know, as you know, cause you've read the book, it's got a bit of a tragic
00:29:21.220
Uh, because James, after he left the Marine Corps, uh, came home and, uh, at 30 years
00:29:30.060
old, uh, out of nowhere, he just collapsed in his kitchen Monday over Labor Day weekend
00:29:37.340
He never, he never came to, uh, and his wife, uh, he's survived by a, you know, beautiful
00:29:44.620
Uh, it's just a tragic story that he could do something so heroic, so amazing overseas,
00:29:50.700
Um, but then he, you know, had his, uh, life tragically cut short and, you know, there's,
00:29:54.820
there's an amazing coda on top of that, frankly, uh, that he was an organ donor and his wife
00:29:59.960
just told me not too long ago that James's organs were then donated to a number of people
00:30:05.980
and he, she heard back that his organs actually saved four people's lives.
00:30:12.380
So even in, even in death, James Hassel was saving lives.
00:30:19.080
Well, I mean, we could talk about each of them, but I don't want to, because I want people
00:30:21.500
to go out there and get your book and, and read these stories for themselves.
00:30:25.460
I can imagine that talking to these men and then writing their stories down has changed
00:30:32.780
How has writing this book made you a better man?
00:30:36.740
There are lessons from these guys and, and, and I've really tried to incorporate them.
00:30:41.200
One of them is, you know, perspective, frankly.
00:30:44.400
A couple of these guys, I mean, all of them believed they were going to die at some point
00:30:48.120
during, during their, during the stories that I tell, the incidents that I described.
00:30:52.300
Um, and I think about, I actually think about what they were going through in, in my moments
00:31:02.440
Uh, there was one guy who, who, Dan Foster, who single-handedly held off an insurgent
00:31:09.160
ambush, the ambush of his little remote, remote outpost.
00:31:11.780
And, and, and he had suffered major, major injuries.
00:31:15.880
And he looked in a mirror at one point, back in the medic's tent, and he saw this awful,
00:31:23.020
He lost 13 teeth, substantial bone structure in his upper and lower jaws.
00:31:28.500
But Dan went back into the fight after he saw those injuries in the mirror.
00:31:33.260
And so when I'm having a difficult time with my first world problems, I actually think
00:31:38.980
about the moment that Dan Foster looked in the mirror and went back into the fight.
00:31:43.140
So when, when you ask, how have I, you know, changed, how has this improved my life?
00:31:47.920
I think I've gotten some perspective where, you know, before, if my Wi-Fi went down, I
00:31:54.480
But now I actually think about Dan Foster, and I try to get a bit of perspective on the
00:32:02.140
And, uh, you know, I think about these guys, Chris Choi, an Afghan, I mean, a, uh, army
00:32:06.300
paratrooper who was in Afghanistan earned a silver star at one point, did something truly
00:32:11.480
incredible, and he called it the loneliest moment of my life.
00:32:16.260
And, you know, I think about that when some idiot cuts me off in traffic, and I'm about
00:32:22.880
Uh, I actually think about Chris Choi, about how he didn't lose his cool in the loneliest
00:32:27.740
moment of his life when he thought he was going to die.
00:32:29.780
And he then proceeded to do something incredible and heroic.
00:32:33.600
I actually try to think about those guys and, and incorporate their, you know, their experiences
00:32:42.040
And I think that's a good lesson for all of us, frankly.
00:32:44.760
A bit of perspective really will kind of make you, you know, reduce the stress, you know,
00:32:50.180
make things, you know, roll like water off the duck's back, uh, a bit more in our lives.
00:32:57.920
There's so much more we could talk about, but, um, where can people find out more about
00:33:07.120
Uh, and one very cool feature about it, which I invite everyone to, uh, to use is, uh, I have
00:33:13.020
set it up that folks can go on and email directly with the heroes.
00:33:16.820
So they can email, you know, the guys that we talked about, Mike Waltz, uh, Chris Choi,
00:33:23.860
And, uh, for the, there are two of them, James and, and, uh, Chris Kyle passed away since
00:33:29.580
they returned home, but folks can email their families.
00:33:32.720
Uh, and what, you know, I would invite people to reach out and share their thoughts about
00:33:37.920
hearing their stories and, uh, you know, feel free to ask questions or even if they just
00:33:42.220
Uh, these are great guys and, and I know they would want to hear from people.
00:33:46.100
Uh, and, and, you know, I think they'll interact.
00:33:48.020
Um, so I would invite you to, you know, go on and, uh, shoot them an email and, and you'll
00:33:52.620
probably get a, you know, probably get a response.
00:34:01.980
He is the author of the book, Valor, Unsung Heroes from Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Homefront.
00:34:07.100
You can find that on amazon.com or bookstores everywhere.
00:34:10.600
Also make sure to check out his website, markleegreenblatt.com.
00:34:14.560
And you can actually email some of the heroes that he highlights in his book, Valor.
00:34:23.460
Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:34:27.080
For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at
00:34:32.280
And again, if you enjoy this podcast, you've gotten something out of it, I'd really appreciate
00:34:36.320
it if you take the time to give us a review on iTunes or Stitch or whatever.
00:34:39.700
That would help us get the word out about the podcast and let more people know about it.