#80 Huckberry With Andy Forch and Richard Greiner
Episode Stats
Summary
In this episode of the Art of Manliness podcast, Brett McKay sits down with the co-founders of Huckberry, Andy Forch and Richard Greiner, to talk about how they built a successful online product company.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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So if you've been visiting the site for the past few years, you're probably familiar with
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the company called Huckberry. It's an online e-commerce store company that sells products
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and gears directed towards men who happen to like doing sort of outdoor adventure stuff.
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We do a weekly giveaway with them. We do a curated shop with them at the holidays and at Father's Day.
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We're an affiliate of them. We're business partners of them. So anytime you make a purchase
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through our Huckberry link, we make a small percentage from that and that helps support
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the website and everything that goes along with it. Anyways, I wanted to bring on the two co-founders
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of Huckberry to share their story of how they started Huckberry because it's a really, it's a
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really cool story of a successful bootstrap startup. Andy Forch, Richard Greiner, they started Huckberry
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when they were relatively young, mid twenties, out of their apartment. And now it's grown into this
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large business in about four or five years where they have an office and a warehouse and they're
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employing over a dozen different people to do their job to fulfill their, their sales.
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So I want to get them on to share their story of how they started a successful business. Cause I know
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a lot of you listening to the podcast are wanting to do that, become entrepreneurs, start your own
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business. So I wanted to have Andy and Richard share their story and their insights and their mistakes
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they made along the way. So you can get something from it. Also, I wanted to get their insights
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about something. I get stuff sent to me all the time from brands and people who are wanting to
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start some sort of male lifestyle product brand or whatever. And Huckberry gets that a hundred times
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more. And I wanted to get Richard and Andy's insight on what separates the winners and losers from
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companies or brands wanting to sell a product that's directed towards men. So if you've had sort of
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an idea kicking around and starting a men's lifestyle product brand or whatever, uh, you'll want to
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listen to this cause you'll get some really good insights. I think from some people who know firsthand
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on, on what, what makes a successful, uh, a successful brand or product. Anyways, uh, it's really
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fascinating. It's, it's all about entrepreneurship, all about being starting a successful business. I think
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if that's something you want to do, you're going to get a lot out of this podcast. So let's do this.
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All right, Richard and Andy, welcome to the show. Thanks, Brett. Uh, pleasure to be with you, bud.
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Likewise. Thanks, Brett. All right. Just so we know who I'm talking to, uh, can you be like,
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Hey, this is Andy and, or Hey, this is Richard. Uh, so, so this is Andy and, uh, Richard has the,
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the radio voice. So there's really no mistaking the, uh, the two of us. Yeah. Hey, Brad Richard here.
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And, um, I'd say Andy has the TV anchor face. All right. So you guys are the founders of Huckberry
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and, uh, if you have been reading the site for a few years, you guys know who Huckberry is. We do a
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giveaway with them every week. Uh, we're, we've been a partner with them for a while back. So I'm
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really excited to have you guys on the show to talk about, uh, how Huckberry started, talk about being
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entrepreneurs, talk about the war stories of starting your own business, uh, in the mail and men's
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lifestyle, uh, genre, and, uh, maybe get some cool insights about this really cool company you
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guys started. Yeah, absolutely. Let's do it. All right. So let's get a little background on you
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because you guys are, you guys are young guys, uh, relatively speaking. Um, what did you guys
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do before Huckberry? How old are you? Uh, why did you start Huckberry? Uh, yeah, Brett, uh,
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Richard here. Um, so I was just telling somebody the story about this earlier today and, you know,
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Andy and I followed very identical life paths. Um, we both went to school on the East coast.
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I went to Villanova and he went to UVA. We both graduated in 2007 and were sort of funneled to
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New York city. Um, as we were both working in finance at that time, um, which at that point in
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time was, you know, sort of still the hot thing to work in. Um, I actually got transferred out to
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San Francisco, um, and I think March of 2008 and Andy got transferred out here in August of 2008
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and didn't know each other, same exact path and, and, and met at a mutual friends party out here and
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just sort of became, became good friends. And, um, you know, we're, we were active and outdoorsy and,
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you know, we, um, you know, we're on a ski trip one time and you start throwing out throwing around
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ideas with your buddies and, you know, you've done it a hundred times and you never think one of
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these will take hold. And one of those ideas sort of took, took hold. And, um, you know,
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I can let Andy kind of dive in a little bit more of the specifics here, but it was just one of those
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things where, you know, you're, you're, you're messing around. You've had some drinks one night and
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the next thing, you know, uh, you're quitting your jobs to, to, to, to sort of dive in headfirst.
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Yeah. And, and, you know, just to piggyback on that, Brett, uh, it's Andy speaking. Um,
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one of the funny things that Rich and I figured out after the fact is, uh, when I moved to San
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Francisco, we lived on the same block. And before we met at a, uh, a party that one of our buddies
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hosted, I think it was around like great white sharks. He was like a great white shark photographer
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hosted a party. Uh, that was when Rich and I met. Um, we found out that we actually lived on the same
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block in New York, uh, and didn't know each other. So, I mean, we, we literally pretty,
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you know, we had pretty identical pasts just, uh, all the way through starting Huckberry. And then,
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you know, now I like to joke, I'm, I'm basically, I have two marriages, uh, married to my wife and
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married to Richard. So, uh, life has converged even more. Do you guys argue like you're married?
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And, and, you know, honestly, like, I think just like you learn in marriage, like learning how to
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resolve, uh, you know, resolve problems and, and how do you speak to each other and how do you
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reinforce each other? Like it's just as important, uh, in a business partnership as it is in a marriage.
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So, yeah. Okay. So you guys were in finance. Uh, how old were you at the time right before you guys
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started doing the Huckberry thing? I think we were 25, 26. Yeah. So we, we were pretty young.
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Um, we, we had both been analysts, uh, at investment banks and, you know, after you sort of do your
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three years, which, which feel like dog years, um, you know, you have to figure out, do you want
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to sort of stay in the game and, and, you know, grind it out and, and build a career or not. And,
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you know, San Francisco is just so different from New York. Um, I, I was staying in corporate housing,
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um, in, in, in sort of the same corporate housing where a lot of the Y Combinator guys were like
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the, the first class or two. So I think founder of Dropbox was in there, uh, a bunch of other guys
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and, you know, the, the whole, the spirit of San Francisco is all around entrepreneurship and,
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you know, being sort of the, the finance guy or, uh, you know, I'll take a shot at you, Brett,
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you know, the lawyer guy, um, you, you know, you're sort of the, uh, the, the butt of, of many
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different, uh, of many jokes and, and, you know, everyone celebrates entrepreneurship. So for us,
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we kind of had to make a decision, um, you know, as far as kind of what path to go down
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and it just made it that much easier being out here because, uh, everyone, you know, all our friends
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were kind of supporting it. I think if we were still in New York and, and, you know, had, had come up
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with an idea to start, uh, a business in an industry, uh, we had absolutely, you know, no
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experience in, um, you know, we probably would have been, you know, laughed out of the room,
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but I think here, you know, San Francisco, they, they, uh, sort of support that. Yeah. All right.
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So, uh, you guys started talking, you guys met at a party, started talking, then you became a
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friends, um, just kind of share the common interest in outdoor stuff. Uh, so how did, I mean,
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where did the idea of Huckberry come from me? How did you guys generate this idea of,
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we're going to create this? Well, before we get there, for those who aren't familiar with Huckberry,
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can you kind of just give the, the elevator pitch of what Huckberry is? Cause sometimes it's like,
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it's hard to explain. Like when people ask me like, what's Huckberry, I'm like, uh, it's kind
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of hard to explain to folks if, unless they see. Yeah. Yeah. It, uh, it is, you know, hard to explain.
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I think, um, you know, at our core, we're an online shop and journal for guys. Um, you know,
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the way I like to sort of explain it is, uh, you know, we're out there trying to
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find the next Patagonia before it's Patagonia. Um, you know, these really cool emerging brands
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are doing great things. They're, they're doing it the right way. Um, you know, they're, they're
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creating great products. Uh, you know, as much as possible, we love brands where, uh, you know,
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they make their product here in the U S. Um, so that's sort of the kind of what it all boils down
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to. I think the thing that, you know, Rich and I use to kind of, uh, you know, steer the ship here
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is, is sort of our unofficial mission statement, which should probably put our heads together and
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make it official at some point or put a little more thought into it, but it's basically to inspire
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more active, adventurous and stylish lives and, and to do that through content and commerce.
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Uh, so you guys are sort of like curators in a lot, in a sense.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, for us, like the, the real, uh, you know,
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the real value that we provide with these brands is just being storytellers. You know,
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they have such great storytelling. They have such great stories to tell makes our life really easy
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and just, um, you know, giving them, uh, sort of more reach across the country. And, and that's
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sort of the, the, the genesis of Huckberry in many ways was that we saw, you know, all these really
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cool brands that had like cult followings in like San Francisco or New York, uh, or, or in the Midwest.
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Um, and you know, they're just making great product and they just really didn't have sort of
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distribution. Um, and, and so we kind of saw the opportunity to, to get in there and, you know,
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highlight a lot of these brands and, and show our East coast friends, you know, what everyone's doing
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on the, on the, uh, on the West coast and, you know, Rich is from the Midwest. And so he, you know,
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he knew about a bunch of brands and was kind of plugged in there. Um, so it really is at our core,
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we're discovery. Very cool. Um, so you guys got this idea, you saw a need for, uh, curation or
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helping people get the word out about these really cool brands. How long did it take to
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take that idea and turn it into an actual business? Um, it's a good question. Ultimately
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from sort of date, we quit our jobs and were able to fully commit to the idea until Huckberry
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was live was, you know, five or six months all in. Um, I think we had figured out the general
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sort of business plan and route we were going to take, you know, in a couple of months. And then
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from there it was sort of technical building the website, figuring out, um, you know, all the
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logistics behind running an e-commerce business and that sort of thing that, that was, um, part of
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the, the reason it took us six months instead of two or three. Um, you know, and that was, you know,
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called a little over four years ago. So it's, it's interesting. The world's become much, much
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sort of simpler to get a, to start a brand or an e-commerce site. So, you know, I think realistically
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you could probably be, you know, three or four months. Uh, it took us six and that's partially
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because of when we started it. And then also having, you know, pretty much zero technical
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knowledge and just figuring out things as we go along. Um, so six months all in for us, but you
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probably do it less. All right. So you guys actually quit your jobs before you started
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getting into this heavy. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. You, you gotta go all in. Um, you know,
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I think some people can kind of do it on the, on the side, but you know, you get to that point
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where you kind of have to, you know, burn the boats on the beach, so to speak. And, and, you
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know, just, just sort of dive all in, especially for something as involved as, you know, an e-commerce
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site. Um, and particularly our model, which, you know, our model isn't, you know, make
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a shirt and sell it and, and just put another, you know, order for that shirt and, and, you
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know, sell the next batch. Like, you know, the Huckberry site refreshes, you know, multiple
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times during the week. And it's just so involved that there is just no way we could have, you
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know, um, you know, moonlighted, moonlighted the project. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so, okay.
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Did you guys have any experience in retail before this or did you have to like sort of
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learn on the fly? We learned 100% on the fly. So I think this sort of taking a quick step
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back, one of the sort of genesis is, um, on the customer or user side is, is, um, that
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we didn't think that any commerce or shopping sites really spoke to us. Um, very often, you
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know, the shop, shopping sites are going to be for really high end, you know, $5,000 suit
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type people or, uh, sort of the, the, the really high end outdoor performance. I'm climbing
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Mount Everest and sort of super technical. And, you know, Andy and I were sort of the, the,
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the, the everyday guys, the guys in the middle that just weren't being sort of weren't being
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properly served and weren't being sort of spoken to from, from the commerce side. Um, so,
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you know, that was really, um, sort of a, a, a big part of it for us.
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And, and, and, you know, Brett, to kind of piggyback on that, um, you know, it's funny in
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that I, I think, you know, there are brands out there like Polar, which, which, uh, I know
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you're familiar with who, who basically sort of, you know, built their model around that.
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Like, you know, um, most people like up until like kind of the Polar movement, I would sort
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of call it, you know, um, and there are a bunch of other brands like Polar now, but, um, you
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know, it was all like Everest, this Everest, that, and like most guys were like, no, you
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know, I actually just want to like go into the backwoods and like go camping with my family
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this weekend or, or, you know, with my buddies. Um, and so we definitely saw kind of the convergence
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of, of what we call like urban and outdoor that, you know, there are these brands out there
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that were really tailored to guys who, you know, lived in the city or in the suburbs, but,
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you know, loved the outdoors. And, uh, you know, a funny story that we always like tell
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is, is Rich went to, um, I think, was it SIA or outdoor retailer? One of these big, uh,
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outdoor trade shows, uh, trying to go, you know, sign up all these brands and kind of
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sell them on Huckberry. And he had no site. We didn't have a site that was live. The only
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thing that we had was, uh, I picked up a, um, Photoshop for dummies book and I made us, uh,
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some pretty slick business cards. Uh, so he's, he's walking around, you know, to all
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these like big brands like Patagonia and the North face, you know, trying to get them signed
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up and just kind of getting laughed away. And, uh, the one sort of relationship, uh, should
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give you more credit. I'm sure you, uh, develop more relationships than just one, but the one
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that was sort of meaningful was, was Benji, the founder of Polar, um, who at that point didn't
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have any product, uh, on his side, he just had these heat bags. So, uh, I think Rich exchanged
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a heat bag for one of his slick, uh, business cards. Um, and, you know, just kind of had
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like a similar viewpoint and it's become one of our, you know, best relationships.
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That's awesome. So, okay. So it sounds like you learned Photoshop on your own because you
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guys do all the graphic stuff for our Huckberry things.
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Yeah. So, so, you know, the, the, the genesis of it was, you know, Rich and I had this idea.
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We love gear, saw the opportunity. I had no experience in retail. Um, you know, obviously we're
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not, you know, technical, uh, uh, founders either. And so we partnered with, um, Richard's
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Yeah. Childhood, childhood's friend's little brother who was getting his, um, his computer
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science degree at Berkeley at Berkeley. He moon, moonlit with us and helped us sort of build
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out Huckberry 1.0, get the site, um, off the ground. And, uh, the perspective that we took
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was, you know, let's get something, you know, nicely put together, but it's more important
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to get the site launch, get product out there and start getting feedback from people, um,
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from people and from brands and suppliers. Um, which I think is one really big, really big
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key for, um, for startups and entrepreneurialism, which is, um, you know, this, this model that
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we live by and it's called, uh, you always throw out your first pancake. So, so, so get,
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get cooking. Yeah. And so it was really about getting a product out there, getting Huckberry
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started and, and then the feedback you get from your customers is infinitely more valuable
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than showing a website to your friends, to advisors and getting, getting feedback from
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them. So it was really about, let's get a, let's get a pretty good product out there and
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get it launched and then kind of refined from there. And, uh, Brett, you know, you know,
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this, like, so, so rich, rich and I kind of in our like finance group of friends, we're
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sort of like, you know, one of the very few entrepreneurs. We get every sort of, I have
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an idea. Can I talk about it? Um, you know, email that's out there and, you know, many of
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them are sort of in business school and, um, you know, the real world as we like to call
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it is just so, so different from business school where, you know, you're in business
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school, you have an idea. Um, you know, you, you basically, you pitch it to the class and
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you're, and it's sort of a safe place, right? Like you're pitching the business and, and
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you're in an environment where the teachers are being paid to listen to you and the students
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are being paid to provide, uh, you know, provide feedback. And then you get into the real
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world and it's like, I remember when we were sort of, uh, you know, pitching Huckberry
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to people, they just don't even respond to the email. Um, and so that really does show
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the importance of just like putting a product out there and letting, letting people vote
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with their wallets. And, and at some point, you know, you kind of have to stand on, on
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your own two feet. That's, that's awesome. Uh, I love the, the, the pancake. You throw
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out your first pancake cause that's true. I throw out my first pancake. Um, and you guys,
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there's something I think a lot of people don't know as well is that you guys handle most
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of the shipping as well, right? Yep. Yeah, we do. Which was, it first started off as,
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um, you know, Annie and I shipping out of our apartments, which was, uh, you know, girlfriends
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and wives weren't too happy about that one, but we basically had a schedule where we knew
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the mail pickup was, you know, five, five o'clock in the, in the afternoon and at three o'clock
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pencils down everybody. And we'd start packing boxes and run them over to the, to the post office
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before it, before it closed for the, for the nightly shipment. Um, and it went from shipping,
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you know, five packages a day to 10 packages a day. And now we're shipping, you know, sometimes
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thousands of packages a day. That's crazy. And you guys have like, I don't know, you guys have
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upgraded since I've last saw you. Um, but well, last time I was in San Francisco a few years ago
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and I went, you had like a garage and it was insane. It was just like packages everywhere. And you
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have like a team who handles, and that's like, you know, if someone who's got, I'm just
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gotten started in e-commerce. I know like the shipping and fulfillment. That's like, that's
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really complex and complicated. A lot of people, when they get in, they want to start an online
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business where they're selling a product. They think that, oh, it's going to be easy,
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but it's, it's a lot more, it's, it's tricky. It's hard.
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Yeah, it's very tricky. And that's, that's one of the things that's one of the, one of the
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biggest challenges to growing a, a larger e-commerce business is figuring those sort of operational
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and fulfillment, um, figuring out those problems. And, you know, you don't, you don't think about
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it, but once you go from shipping 10 packages a day to a hundred packages a day, your customer
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service inbounds will, will 10 X and you have to start figuring that out. And then, yeah,
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it really becomes quite challenging to figure out the logistics and operational side. Um, but
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it's something where, you know, if orders start coming in, you're going to, you're going to figure
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it out. So it's, again, um, you know, learning, sort of learning by fire and throwing out that
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pancake as you grow, as you grow. All right. So you guys, uh, you said you started four years
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ago. So it was like 2010, you guys officially went into business. Uh, it was May, 2011, May,
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2011. Yeah. We, we quit our jobs in I think September or October of 10 and then launched the site
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April, 2011, April 7. All right. So it was just you two at the beginning, uh, shipping stuff out of
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your apartments. Uh, how big is your team now? So we've got, call it, um, about 16 of us in the
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office, maybe 17, depending on how you count part-time people. And then another dozen or
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so that are working in our warehouse. So close to close to 30 people between sort of, you know,
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full-time and, and, and part-time and then warehouse staff. That's crazy. Well, that's
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amazing. That's phenomenal. Uh, that you guys have gotten so big, so fast. All right. I know early on
00:21:35.280
guys that you didn't, uh, take venture capital, uh, to start your business. And I know you guys are in
00:21:41.180
San Francisco. You're talking about the whole idea of, you know, it's entrepreneurship is really big
00:21:44.860
in that area. And a big part of that culture is like, everyone wants venture capital. Everybody wants
00:21:50.160
that money for their startup. Um, why didn't you, why did you guys make that decision not to take
00:21:55.680
venture capital? I, you know, I, I think, Brett, I, I, there's sort of a few things when we were sort
00:22:02.400
of, uh, you know, standing on the ledge of, of, of whether to jump into this or not. I think one of
00:22:09.660
the, the sites and blogs we read a lot and that we really subscribed to was, uh, 37 signals. And I guess
00:22:16.340
their blogs called signals versus noise. Uh, and, and, um, the founder Jason freed, uh, has since
00:22:22.280
written a few books, um, rework. I think there's like one or two others and he's just a huge fan
00:22:28.800
of, of sort of bootstrapping your business. And, and, you know, I think it was, it was sort of in
00:22:35.580
our DNA and that like, you know, we graduated from school, went into a white collar job, but I think we
00:22:40.140
have a pretty like blue collar mentality when it comes down to it. And that we both, both love getting
00:22:44.320
our hands dirty and kind of rolling up our sleeves and, and, you know, picking up Photoshop for
00:22:48.860
dummies that, you know, that's how we designed the site and, and just doing things really, really
00:22:53.180
cheaply. Um, so I think, you know, that was sort of, and, and, you know, honestly, we were pretty
00:23:00.660
lucky to choose a business model where, um, you know, we could sort of afford to do that. And that,
00:23:05.660
you know, like if you're starting, um, you know, a button, a button down or, you know, a button down
00:23:10.940
t-shirt company, um, and, you know, your, your sort of capital requirements are that, you know,
00:23:17.320
you have to pay money six months before you can actually, you know, to, to buy the fabric and get
00:23:22.480
it, you know, cut and sewn. And then, you know, you, you launch it to the public and, and, uh, you
00:23:28.020
know, your cashflow cycles, you're getting paid, you know, six months after you cut that first check.
00:23:32.760
Uh, we were lucky in that, you know, starting in the beginning, um, it was, you know, primarily
00:23:37.480
sort of a pre-sale model with our customers. So it was a combination of, of, um, you know,
00:23:42.760
wanting to kind of control our own destiny, which is what boots, bootstrapping allows you to do,
00:23:46.660
uh, choosing a business that sort of allowed us to bootstrap and those bootstrap friendly.
00:23:51.280
Um, I think one of the things we say, you know, to every entrepreneur is like, if you can, you know,
00:23:56.000
if you can afford to bootstrap your business, um, absolutely do it. We're, we're huge fans of it,
00:24:00.980
but we also recognize that it's, it's one, it's not for every model. It's not for every person.
00:24:05.280
And, you know, they're absolutely, um, you know, some, some, some trade-offs in that,
00:24:11.460
you know, we, we, uh, definitely grow a lot slower than, um, you know, than, than we could.
00:24:18.260
And, you know, part of that is just risk tolerance, but, but also, you know, if we raise money,
00:24:22.560
it would be, uh, you know, kind of pedal to the metal. Um, but I don't know, it's like,
00:24:28.620
I think in many ways, it's particularly early on, you're just trying to like,
00:24:31.720
you know, find your niche and find your voice and find yourself and find the business. And I think
00:24:36.740
it was nice, not raising venture capital and sort of being forced to just
00:24:40.700
grow like crazy when maybe you're not even growing the right business, you know?
00:24:46.080
Very interesting. And, uh, do you guys still get approached? I'm sure you guys get approached by
00:24:49.060
people who want to, uh, a stake in the business. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I mean, it's so
00:24:54.760
cool. I mean, it's just, it's a, it's a really cool model you guys have going. Um, but it's,
00:24:58.480
it's great. You've maintained that control, um, and I've grown at your own pace. Um,
00:25:03.960
so you started in 2011, uh, and at this time there were sort of sites like yours that were
00:25:10.500
popping up, like these sort of curated membership deal sites where, you know, you sign up and every
00:25:15.560
week there's like a new lineup and you get, you know, some discounts. Um, like there's guilt and
00:25:21.180
I forgot some of the other ones, but it's all seem to pop up at the same time. And, uh,
00:25:26.120
so how did you guys set yourself apart, uh, from the pack? And I think you've kind of,
00:25:30.980
you know, uh, referenced it a little bit in your conversation, but how did, what did you
00:25:34.520
guys do to make yourselves different from all those other curated store sites?
00:25:41.240
Yeah. So I think there's a, there's a couple of things, Brad. Uh, first off is when, from day
00:25:47.180
one of starting Huckberry, we always wanted to sort of tell the story of our brand partners
00:25:51.820
first. So we weren't all about putting product in your face and just, and just being pushy
00:25:58.160
and product focused. We were about, let's go find really cool people that are doing really
00:26:03.100
cool things and making awesome products and leading with telling that story. So I think
00:26:08.820
our focus, you know, has always been story first and let's, let's sort of get behind why
00:26:15.740
we love this brand or this product. Um, and so that has really developed the story first
00:26:22.080
and content approach to commerce that has really developed over time into a full blown, um, you
00:26:28.380
know, journal blog that, that gets great traffic and is sort of something that really separates
00:26:34.640
us from most other, other, um, you know, commerce sites out there. So there is, um, you know,
00:26:41.980
that's a, um, you know, a definitely a bit, a big part of it. And, you know, I think a few
00:26:48.140
other ways we sort of, you know, differentiate ourselves early on. I think, um, I think as
00:26:54.680
time has gone on, like we've definitely found our voice even more. I think we've got like
00:26:59.440
more dialed in on like what exactly our edit is, what, what, what's like a Huckberry brand,
00:27:04.540
what's the Huckberry way of saying that. Um, and you know, again, it all kind of comes back
00:27:10.980
to storytelling and, and, you know, really just trying to be a signal in sort of a market where
00:27:16.760
there's a lot of noise. So, uh, you know, a lot of these other, uh, you know, shopping sites,
00:27:21.920
whether it's members only or even just retail, you know, a lot of these retailers, um, they sort
00:27:27.880
of lead with like the, the best deal. So they'll call up a brand and they'll say, Hey, like, what
00:27:32.940
can I buy for 70% off wholesale? And they're like, Oh, well, you know, have some stuff from 2011.
00:27:37.540
I couldn't move that. I could sell you, you know, for pennies on the dollar. And our mentality is
00:27:43.440
like, Hey, let's go find the coolest brands. And then let's bring our readers like the absolute,
00:27:48.600
like best selection from the coolest brand. And then, you know, we don't need to buy it 70%
00:27:53.580
off wholesale because we want, like, we basically have two customers. We want our brands to come
00:27:58.060
back to us and give us exclusive product and exclusive releases and, and collaborate. And, uh,
00:28:03.320
and then, but we also want our customers to kind of get a great deal. So that's why when you're
00:28:06.400
on Huckberry, you know, it's typically 10% off, 15% off, but, uh, you know, it's the
00:28:10.740
best price on the internet. And, um, and, uh, you know, we, we would argue it's sort of
00:28:17.960
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, uh, that's kind of what sold me on it eventually. So that's,
00:28:23.440
you know, we, I can tell the story. It's kind of funny. So like when you guys approached
00:28:26.340
me back in, I guess, 2011, uh, about, Hey, do you want to be an affiliate and, you know,
00:28:32.520
help, you know, work with us? I was like, I was getting inundated with like emails from
00:28:37.780
people who were like, Hey, I got this membership deal site. And I was just like, my default
00:28:40.760
answer became no. And so I told you guys, no, like, uh, to do an ax giveaway with you
00:28:47.440
actually. Yeah. Um, but you guys were persistent and, uh, you, you finally, uh, got me on the
00:28:54.500
phone and like, you, you, you like were able to tell me like this, your vision, like what
00:28:58.400
you wanted to do. Um, that was like, it's like sort of like outdoor stuff for like the
00:29:04.260
guy who lives in the suburbs of the cities. Um, and you know, telling stories about how
00:29:09.760
you can use this stuff to like go live a life of adventure and like do cool stuff. And I
00:29:14.100
was like, okay, I'll give it a try. And, uh, since then it's been, it's been a fantastic
00:29:18.660
partnership. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it certainly has Brad. Um, and I, I, Andy and I remember the
00:29:26.220
day very specifically when, um, you did a nice write up about some of the, um, the
00:29:31.880
different men's shopping sites out there and you sort of mentioned Huckberry's, you
00:29:35.880
know, head above shoulders, uh, of the rest. And, uh, that was, that was definitely a big
00:29:40.100
day for us to have your, your endorsement. Um, you know, one thing that we've really
00:29:45.540
tried to do as we've grown and, um, sort of figured out our path and, and, and the
00:29:52.020
business life is, is, uh, like one thing you mentioned was being persistent. Um, and
00:29:57.180
then to finding people to partner with that are like, you're going to form a deep, deep
00:30:02.700
partnership relation, you know, deep relationship with, um, somebody that sort of sees the world
00:30:07.040
through, through, through your lens and, and you, it just sort of makes sense. Like you
00:30:11.280
would be friends outside of the, you know, the internet world. Um, and so I think, you
00:30:16.320
know, you were sort of very early on in that, um, approach and that's something that
00:30:20.860
we've just really maintained throughout our, our, you know, three and a half, four
00:30:25.360
years of being in business is trying to partner with people that, that just make a lot of sense
00:30:29.740
and not going out there and partnering with everybody, um, and trying to find, establish
00:30:34.480
more meaningful, deeper partnerships. Yeah. I think that's an important point to make
00:30:38.980
because, uh, there's, there are a lot of young entrepreneurs who get this idea that it's
00:30:43.860
sort of just the numbers game, right? Like make as many phone calls, send as many emails
00:30:47.900
as, even if like the people you're contacting, like wouldn't be a good fit for you. Right.
00:30:54.900
And, and it's just such a waste of time. And instead, yeah, if they would just focus and
00:30:58.660
like actually find those people who would be, they would, they would often provide value
00:31:03.840
to them and they would provide value to, they would get value from them. Uh, it'd just be
00:31:08.420
much more, much more effective. Yeah. You know, Brett to, to this day, I mean, I know
00:31:13.380
Rich and I sort of credit you with, uh, you know, sort of our, our big break in many ways
00:31:19.340
and, and, you know, are just sincerely thankful of, of sort of the, you know, friendship and
00:31:23.460
partnership that, that we, uh, we've come up with one thing. I don't know if I ever told
00:31:27.700
you, I remember I was on my honeymoon, uh, in Brazil with, with my wife, Kate. Um, and
00:31:33.720
I remember kind of, uh, I woke up in the middle of the night and was like answering, uh, Huckberry
00:31:38.840
emails and just kind of like thinking about some of our growth plans. I remember just
00:31:42.500
like writing a bunch of like partners I thought made sense. And then at the top of the list
00:31:47.280
was you and I just circled it. I was like, man, we just have to make this happen. Like
00:31:50.100
it's such a great, you know, just from like a value standpoint and how we look at the
00:31:53.700
world, it's just such a great partnership. And, and that's probably why you got, you know,
00:31:57.320
seven emails the next week. Um, and I've sort of caveat that by saying that I'm, I'm
00:32:03.080
kidding and please don't send Brett seven emails. That's not the way to do it.
00:32:06.860
But, um, that was, uh, that was sort of the start of it.
00:32:10.720
Yeah. It's, it's been a fantastic partnership and I've just, I've loved working with you
00:32:13.600
guys. And like, like Richard said, it's like, we're friends outside of, like outside of the
00:32:18.420
internet, which is awesome. I was going to tell you guys, uh, speaking of like how big
00:32:24.040
you've gotten, I saw a Huckberry adventure, adventure cap in the wild in Tulsa, Tulsa, Oklahoma.
00:32:30.480
Yeah. I went to go get donuts with my kid and there's this guy sitting outside eating donuts.
00:32:34.840
Uh, he's like a student here in Tulsa and he was wearing the Huckberry hat and I was like,
00:32:38.800
Hey, nice hat. He's like, and he, he recognized me from the website. He's like, Oh yeah. It was
00:32:43.780
cool though. It was to see a Huckberry hat in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
00:32:46.520
Yeah. Brett, I have a similar story for real, for you real quick. Um, so you're obviously
00:32:51.260
familiar with go rock. You've done a couple of challenges. Uh, we, we host this sort of
00:32:56.240
annual or semi-annual party with them called war stories and beer where they, you know, they come to our
00:33:02.360
offices and we clear everything out and, and they have, you know, some of the go rock, um,
00:33:07.840
what are they called? Uh, called cadres and they give up, they go up there and they talk about
00:33:14.060
experiences from their time at war and coming back to, to Huckberry or coming back to, um, you know,
00:33:19.540
the United States and readjusting and everything. It's just a, it's a great night and you know,
00:33:24.000
you're raising money for the wounded warriors and et cetera, et cetera. And, um, so we hosted one of
00:33:29.840
those about three months ago and this guy comes up to Andy and I, and he goes, Oh, are you, are you,
00:33:35.560
are you Andy and Richard? And we start talking to him and it turns out he was turned on to Huckberry
00:33:40.320
through you way back in the day, two or three years ago. Um, through Huckberry, he learned about
00:33:46.620
go rock and has since done, you know, five or six challenges with them. And he flew out from
00:33:51.920
Washington DC to come out to the go rock war stories at the Huckberry offices. It was just like a total,
00:33:59.220
you know, just one of those, one of those great, great evenings to, and to hear that story.
00:34:03.920
That's all. I want to talk more about some of that stuff that you guys are doing going beyond just
00:34:07.880
retail and telling stories. Um, because you guys are doing more than that. We'll get to that in a
00:34:12.540
second. Um, but let's get to this first. So, uh, you guys are in this position now where you're
00:34:18.240
tastemakers, right? Brands used to be that you'd have to like go to the, the retail, um, what are the
00:34:24.720
conventions or whatever those things are called? Yeah. Uh, and try to like, Hey,
00:34:29.100
pitch your business to them, but now companies are coming to you. Right. And a few years ago,
00:34:36.380
it seemed like there was really a dearth of quality like products for men. Um, but these
00:34:42.980
days, every time I turn around, I see some new startup that's turning out leather bags or journal
00:34:48.100
covers or a canvas dot kit or like stuff made from wood or manly soap or what? I mean, you guys know,
00:34:55.660
you guys have seen this stuff. Do you think the, the market for these kinds of products,
00:35:01.100
is it saturated? And if there's a guy out there who's like, I want to start some sort of
00:35:05.600
male lifestyle product. Um, what advice would you give that guy who's thinking about starting a
00:35:11.140
business in that, that niche? Yeah. So, you know, Brett, I think, uh, you know, specifically,
00:35:17.240
you know, I'll, I'll sort of start with, with leather because it seems like we see more
00:35:22.100
leather products than, than anything else. Um, you know, the, the thing about leather is that,
00:35:29.100
uh, it's really easy to, you know, create, create a, uh, you know, let's say a wallet business,
00:35:35.740
you know, design a really nice, uh, you know, a good looking wallet used to write leather. Um,
00:35:41.740
you know, maybe you contract out the work, maybe you do it yourself, um, put it on the internet,
00:35:46.200
post some pretty pictures and, and, and sell a few thousand. The, the problem is, you know,
00:35:51.120
that can almost be sort of a false indicator because, um, you know, it's easy to create a
00:35:59.200
leather business where you can sell a few thousand. It's really tough to build like, you know, a
00:36:03.200
million dollar, uh, a year, you know, leather business, or, or maybe it's $500,000 a year,
00:36:08.360
but, and that's because the market is so saturated that, um, you know, there's this, there's this real
00:36:14.020
desire and hunger for, for great leather products, but, um, you know, building sort of a, a sustainable
00:36:19.540
business outside of just kind of a, you know, a pet project, um, can be really tough. And I think,
00:36:25.280
you know, a lot of guys have maybe, you know, started selling stuff on Etsy and, and, you know,
00:36:30.260
and then kind of jumped in and found that, uh, you know, it wasn't sort of the market wasn't as,
00:36:34.700
uh, you know, robust or as supportive of the, of their vision as, as they thought. So that's just
00:36:39.460
sort of one thing to, to keep an eye on. I think at the end of the day, it all comes down to like
00:36:43.680
viewpoint, you know, there, there's just, just, uh, you know, my, my first boss said, you know,
00:36:50.600
having, having a view, a viewpoint and like a distinct viewpoint is worth 20 IQ points.
00:36:55.300
And it's something that I think we sort of ingrained here at Huckberry, like with, with a
00:36:58.860
brand, um, you know, when, when we're sort of assessing a brand, it's like, it's a crowded market.
00:37:03.900
Why this brand above, you know, above anything else? Um, is it, uh, you know, is it great value?
00:37:09.720
Is it, uh, you know, is, is there sort of a craftsmanship story? Uh, you know, how authentic
00:37:14.800
is sort of the brand? Um, and so, you know, the, the, the storytelling component of it,
00:37:21.100
which is the thing that we focus on and which is really what gets these brands in the door
00:37:24.580
is the most important thing. So if you don't have a viewpoint and you're just doing something
00:37:28.560
cause you don't want to, you know, you don't like your nine to five job and you're just looking
00:37:32.480
for an out, I think that can be like a pretty scary, you know, path to go down.
00:37:36.560
Hmm. Okay. I mean, but I mean, what about guys who like, I mean, with the leather thing,
00:37:43.340
there's people who I think are really trying to start a brand. They, they, they, they try
00:37:47.700
to like, they come up with a story right about, you know, they, they talk about sort of the,
00:37:53.240
the catchwords like American craftsmanship made in USA. Um, you know, like those are those
00:37:59.360
buzzwords that are really artisanal. Um, I mean, I mean, there's a story there, but like,
00:38:06.420
how do you, I mean, it's, how do you, if stories are what's really important in commerce today,
00:38:11.220
uh, how do you come up with a, uh, I guess, a story that sets you apart?
00:38:18.140
It's definitely a lot trickier now than it was three, four or five years ago. Um, you know,
00:38:26.340
things that we look for when we're evaluating inbounds is going to be, what did that person
00:38:31.840
do before, um, they went to leather? Like, is there, is there a story of why they got into it
00:38:37.200
or were they working sort of around the peripherals of leather or in craftsmanship? Like, like why did
00:38:44.100
they get involved? Was it just because they didn't like their nine to five and they're, and they want
00:38:47.420
to quit? Or is it a sort of a family tradition that's been passed down through, through the,
00:38:52.460
through the generations? Or is it, um, you know, you grew up on a horse ranch and you,
00:38:57.900
you know, worked with leather your whole life. Right. So trying to find like, what's the real
00:39:04.020
story behind somebody doing some, something, or is it just, I want to start a business. This is
00:39:09.500
trendy right now. I'm going to get into American made leather products. Yeah. So that, that's
00:39:13.620
definitely like, do you have, do you really have an angle or do you have something that like makes
00:39:18.160
you really want to be doing it? Not just because it's the trendy thing. So that's definitely something
00:39:23.360
like follow your passion and whatever you do. And if you're not passionate about what you do,
00:39:27.600
you're not going to be successful. Um, and that's one of the core things about Huckberry.
00:39:31.740
We started Huckberry for us because we didn't think there was something out there that was
00:39:35.480
speaking to us. Um, and, and so, yeah, make sure you're passionate about what you do because,
00:39:40.700
um, it is a pain in the butt at times. It's wonderful at times. Um, but it's something that
00:39:46.380
you have to really love to be able to, to, to, to be successful at. All right. Um, so I'm sure.
00:39:51.760
So yeah. Okay. You guys see a lot of like upstart businesses. Uh, some last, um, most of them
00:39:58.500
don't. Uh, what are the successful entrepreneurs doing that the not so successful ones are not
00:40:04.320
doing? They, they keep going. I mean, you, you, you can start with that. Um, you know,
00:40:09.980
just, just keep going, keep the feet moving. Um, you know, and I think it's sort of a combination
00:40:16.740
of things. I think one, you know, the successful ones are playing long game. Um, you know, like,
00:40:22.440
like we're a e-commerce retailer, but I think the secret sauce of, of the Huckberry brand is built
00:40:27.680
on personal relationships, uh, going to these trade shows, getting out in the community, you know,
00:40:32.720
having face to face developing, you know, relationships. Um, so, so even though, you know,
00:40:37.780
the customer has like sees a experience online that's, um, you know, feels digital. Um, there's so
00:40:45.120
much humanness behind it. And I think, um, you know, that's been sort of one thing that, uh, has
00:40:52.080
done wonders for us. And I think for a lot of these brands that, you know, like if you're a leather
00:40:56.240
brand and, and, and you're, you know, super passionate about what you're doing and, uh, you
00:41:01.340
know, you're out there kind of forging industry relationships. I think that really goes a long
00:41:05.620
way. So, um, I think some of the unsuccessful ones sort of discount that and, you know, they sort
00:41:12.220
of send those impersonal blast emails, you know, dear, you know, dear Mr. Art Manliness.
00:41:18.180
Yeah. Um, didn't even take the time to look up your name. You know, I started a leather
00:41:22.080
company, you know, here's the price, like, you know, let's do a giveaway and, you know,
00:41:27.600
and they probably got your name wrong, right? Yeah. Yeah. They always get my name wrong.
00:41:30.740
Brent or like sort of Brad or whatever. And, and, and so it's really, it's, it's the sniff
00:41:37.580
test, you know, it's like, are these guys playing the long game? Um, and, and so, you
00:41:42.860
know, rich kind of alluded to this earlier, but it really is like, are they just kind
00:41:47.320
of, you, you get the sense that they're doing things the right way and that they're really
00:41:50.940
in it for, you know, they aren't trying this out for three months, but they're, they're,
00:41:54.920
they're in it cause they think they're going to be doing this five years from now. Um, and
00:41:58.340
I think those who have that sort of longterm vision, uh, it's sort of, you know, trickles
00:42:02.500
down to the decisions they make each day, uh, and sort of how they build the brand, how
00:42:07.000
they, how they go about selling their product. Um, and so Brett, just, just to hop in here
00:42:13.540
real quick for, for, for me, and I know Andy shares this as well. It's, you have to be
00:42:18.360
a doer. Um, it's all, it's all about action when you're starting a company and just, and
00:42:24.200
getting things going and trying and learning by mistakes and you can't overthink things.
00:42:29.480
You can't make the best product out there. You have to really start doing. And so we look
00:42:34.520
for someone that's got a lot of initiative and that's really just like, is so hungry
00:42:38.440
to get going. You have to hold them back really. And, and, and that, and that sense of, of doing
00:42:44.940
is really, really important, especially at an early stage startup.
00:42:49.060
Yeah. I think that's a great point to make because I feel like a lot of people have this
00:42:52.360
idea that I have to have the perfect business plan before I can get started. And I have to
00:42:58.340
like know like everything about whatever it is I'm doing to, you know, before I actually
00:43:03.260
get started on something. But the thing is like the way you really learn how to run
00:43:07.480
a business, uh, is just getting your hands dirty. Like that's, and I, yeah, I've seen
00:43:12.400
something like, like in my area where people want to always get it. I'm always getting
00:43:16.920
asked questions like, how do I start a successful blog? And like, they want to sit down and like
00:43:20.180
they have all these questions and they just, they never get started though. It's just like,
00:43:25.080
I'm just telling you, you just got to get started. Just get something out there.
00:43:27.860
Brett, you know, um, my, my sort of favorite, or I should say one of my favorite, uh, quotes
00:43:34.580
on entrepreneurship was, was actually by Mike Tyson. And he said, everyone has a plan until
00:43:39.800
they get punched in the face. Right. And I think that that's sort of, that that's, that's
00:43:44.920
a great way to look at it. Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face and, and
00:43:48.800
you just, you have to get out there and, and, you know, see whether, you know, you can, you
00:43:53.380
know, stand up on your own, you know, two feet and take those hits. Awesome. I love,
00:43:58.060
I'm glad we got some Mike Tyson wisdom in here. Yeah. Um, there's, there's not much
00:44:02.620
of it. All right. So I think a lot of people might look at you two and think that you guys
00:44:08.180
have like the ultimate dream job. I mean, I'm sure they just imagine like all you're
00:44:11.920
doing is going out into the redwoods or, you know, it's nearby and camping and testing
00:44:17.760
out cool gear and writing blog posts about it. Uh, what's your job really like? Is it
00:44:23.880
as dreamy as folks imagine? Um, no, it's one of those things where there are moments where
00:44:32.320
I, where I think to myself like, wow, I can't believe this is my job. This is awesome. But
00:44:37.080
for every one of those, there's five of, you know, this massive headache or you're up all
00:44:44.240
night, you know, five nights in a row trying to figure out a problem. Um, you know, running
00:44:49.680
a business is definitely learning how to put out fires and whatever comes at you, you have
00:44:55.400
to find a solution. So it's one of those things that you can't even imagine how many fires there
00:45:00.980
are in the world until you start running a business. Yeah. And you know, the other thing
00:45:07.620
is like, we work really, really hard. I think, um, you know, that's probably something that,
00:45:14.060
you know, maybe from the outside people don't appreciate it as much, but everyone here works
00:45:18.940
really, really hard. I think, you know, part of that is, is we're bootstrapped and, and,
00:45:22.720
and, uh, you know, we make every penny count. And, and I think, uh, there is a bit of self
00:45:27.420
selection in that, you know, we're hard workers. So we bring in hard workers who have great attitude
00:45:31.300
and, and sort of great fits with the Huckberry culture and kind of take our, our, our brand
00:45:35.700
forward. But, um, you know, that said, we also make sure to, to play at times and
00:45:40.920
Oh yeah. Yeah. Like it's definitely an environment where, you know, you're encouraged to take,
00:45:45.640
take a half day on Friday so you can get up and beat the traffic in the mountains and that
00:45:48.940
sort of thing. So it's definitely a balance, but we, we, we work hard though. That's for
00:45:52.900
sure. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I think a lot of particularly young people, I mean, they have this dream of
00:45:56.620
starting like a lifestyle business, right? Kind of like what you guys do. And they imagine,
00:46:00.120
Oh, if I start this, then I'm my own boss and I'll be able to like just drop whenever,
00:46:04.460
whenever I'm doing and it'll be amazing. Right. But I, they don't, they don't think about the
00:46:09.540
logistics, right. That you get into it. Once you get bigger, problems get bigger and they grow
00:46:15.540
exponentially. And, uh, yeah, it's just like, it's, you don't think about, I think a lot of
00:46:19.640
people, they don't think about that part when they go into starting a business.
00:46:25.080
Yeah. Mo money, mo problems. Mo money, mo problems. All right. Uh, so let's talk about,
00:46:30.960
uh, Huckberry's future. Um, so you, you mentioned, you mentioned a little bit about how you do these
00:46:35.360
sort of meetups, right? You do the GORUCK, uh, war stories and beer. Uh, you did the, uh, Huckberry
00:46:41.360
holiday home last year. So it seems like your guys are trying to actually get people, uh, physically
00:46:48.380
together. It's not just online. Uh, is that sort of like the future of Huckberry where you want to get
00:46:53.600
people together, uh, in front of each other? Yeah. You know, again, kind of circling the
00:47:01.220
wagon back to, to the mission statement of, of inspiring more active, adventurous and stylish
00:47:06.720
lives. Like, you know, right now we do that through commerce and we do, you know, we do that through
00:47:10.840
content. Um, but I, I think going forward, you know, we, we want to do that both in commerce and
00:47:16.360
content better, but, but also we want to do it through, you know, in-person experiences and events.
00:47:21.280
And, and, you know, I think the, the thing we're trying to do with Huckberry is really build,
00:47:26.340
build a community of, of, you know, like-minded brands and people, uh, and, and blogs and, and,
00:47:32.940
you know, create cool experiences that don't kind of currently exist in the world and put all those
00:47:37.460
people together. Um, so Brett, I know, you know, we, we've talked a lot about, you know, doing the
00:47:41.940
Huckberry holiday home and, and, you know, doing Huckberry on the road, uh, or, or, you know,
00:47:46.820
an art of manliness and Huckberry event and, and just, you know, kind of putting
00:47:51.220
our heads together and, and sort of creating, uh, you know, cool AOM and, and HB experience.
00:47:57.140
Yeah, I would, I think that'd be awesome if we could do that. But right now you guys are doing
00:48:00.460
that like Huckberry on the road, right? With the band. What's going on with that?
00:48:04.680
Yeah. So we, uh, we threw a party with Topo Designs in Denver, uh, this past Thursday. So
00:48:10.580
just got back from that. Um, awesome, awesome event. So, so the genesis of Huckberry on the road is,
00:48:16.660
um, you know, we, we have all these great relationships with brands all across the country,
00:48:21.320
uh, you know, really cool factories behind these brands. A lot of these brands make their products
00:48:25.960
in the U S and we sort of wanted a conduit to kind of tell their stories, um, you know, in, uh, in
00:48:32.720
person, either through video or through, through pictures or, or, or through, uh, local meetups.
00:48:37.580
And so, uh, our good friend, John Gaffney, who, uh, you know, in the past has written for
00:48:42.160
Valet and gear patrol and a few other publications, um, told us of his dream to kind of quit his
00:48:47.340
nine to five job and, and, uh, you know, travel the world and sort of document or travel the
00:48:51.980
U S I should say, and document a lot of these guys and sort of dovetailed exactly with what
00:48:55.900
we were trying to do. So, uh, we sponsored him to do it and sort of the, the, um, you know,
00:49:01.160
official, uh, tagline is, uh, you know, exploring America and documenting it's, uh, makers,
00:49:07.480
makers, bakers, movers, and shakers. Um, it's sort of the, the fun tagline we came up with.
00:49:12.740
And so through our first event in Denver, had a great time, met a lot of, uh, AOM readers
00:49:17.660
there, which was just awesome. Again, kind of like what Richard was saying with the go
00:49:21.200
wreck event, just, just so fun. And, and, you know, it's amazing to see the impact that,
00:49:25.800
you know, you're having out there and, and, and it's just awesome when sort of our two worlds
00:49:30.180
collide. And, um, and so, uh, you know, the punchline is, uh, Huckberry on the roads coming
00:49:35.920
to many more cities. Um, I think Portland is one of the next events we have coming up
00:49:40.900
and, and hopefully, you know, maybe Tulsa, man. That would be awesome.
00:49:45.700
Yeah. And it's definitely about sort of, you know, encouraging sort of the experiential
00:49:50.800
side of Huckberry. So lots of meetups and happy hours and, um, and hikes and all those
00:49:56.860
kinds of things. So it's, it's really about, you know, telling the story of our brand partners
00:50:00.180
and what they're doing. And then also meeting, meeting the Huckberryans out there and trying
00:50:04.000
to do some cool stuff with them while, while we're on the road.
00:50:06.760
Very cool. Well, Andy and Rich, it's been a pleasure talking to you. Uh, thanks so much
00:50:14.160
Yeah, absolutely. Have a, have a great long weekend.
00:50:17.060
Our guests today were Andy Forch and Richard Greiner. They are the co-founders of Huckberry
00:50:21.300
and you can find out more about Huckberry by going to huckberry.com. And if you haven't
00:50:26.360
signed up for the newsletter yet, if you use the URL aom.is slash Huckberry, that's aom.is
00:50:33.020
slash Huckberry, you'll get a $5 credit on your first purchase with Huckberry and yes,
00:50:38.580
full transparency. That is an affiliate link. So I'll make a small percentage of the sales
00:50:43.800
on that, which will help support the podcast and everything else that goes with the podcast.
00:50:47.340
So I'd really appreciate that. And you get $5 credit, which is great. Um, so yeah, it's
00:50:53.880
That wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,
00:50:58.980
make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com.
00:51:02.180
And if you enjoy this podcast and you feel like you've gotten something out of it, I'd really
00:51:06.080
appreciate it. If you go to iTunes or Stitcher or whatever it is you use to listen to your podcast
00:51:11.500
and give us a rating, that would help us out a lot. And until next time, this is Brett McKay