The Art of Manliness - #87： The Wonder of Boys with Dr. Michael Gurian

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. Now there's been

00:00:19.720 a lot of discussion in the media these past few years about what's wrong with boys, what's wrong

00:00:24.340 with men, why aren't they succeeding in school anymore, why are they less likely to go to college 1.00

00:00:29.420 than women now. There's all these statistics that are thrown out and whenever there's this discussion

00:00:33.980 about what's wrong with boys, what's wrong with men, very rarely are there solutions offered and

00:00:38.720 when solutions are offered it's often you know boys just need to be more like girls and men need 0.98

00:00:43.980 to be more like women. Our guest today makes the case that's not necessarily true that rather we

00:00:49.480 need to understand the unique ways that boys and a man's neurobiology affects how they relate to the

00:00:57.880 world and adapt to our culture to that and embrace that those unique attributes of men and boys.

00:01:04.800 His name is Michael Gurian. He's the author of 28 books and he's dedicated his life and career to

00:01:11.600 helping teachers, helping parents, helping institutions help boys. That's been a big part

00:01:18.180 of his career and today we're going to talk about his first book that he wrote. It's called The Wonder

00:01:22.220 of Boys. We'll be discussing how boys and girls are different and how their brain biology affects the

00:01:28.640 way they relate to the world. We're going to discuss the differences between how boys and girls show 0.94

00:01:34.420 empathy. There's like this sort of stereotype that boys aren't empathetic but they are in fact

00:01:39.000 empathetic. They just do it differently. We're going to talk about what parents can do to help their

00:01:43.640 young men, help their boys grow into good strong men and we're also going to talk about the importance

00:01:48.580 of things like community and extended family and nurturing and growing a young man. It's a

00:01:55.280 fascinating discussion. We really scratched the surface of his work so you'll need to go and check

00:01:59.260 out more on his website and we'll get that at the end of the podcast. Without further ado, let's get on

00:02:06.640 with the show. Michael Gurian, welcome to the show. Thank you. So you have devoted your career to

00:02:17.860 helping boys and young men and your first book that you wrote that addressed some of the problems that

00:02:24.200 you saw in the way that schools or therapists or social workers or even parents approached how they

00:02:31.500 helped or taught boys was a book called The Wonder of Boys. Can you describe some of these problems

00:02:37.760 that you saw that kind of made you start looking deeper into this and how we approach helping our

00:02:43.460 young men and boys? Yeah, this is back in the 90s, late 80s, early 90s where I was working with

00:02:51.520 clients. I was completing my research. I did two years of research in Turkey to compare it to male-female

00:02:59.200 behavior patterns, all of that, sort of the science base of it. Then, of course, I was seeing clients

00:03:04.400 as a therapist. I just kept seeing more and more boys who were having trouble. I began to look at

00:03:13.360 it not just from a personal standpoint, but on what's out there. There really wasn't much out

00:03:18.600 there. It was a very girls-oriented time. I have two daughters, so obviously that's fine. I'm not a boy

00:03:22.820 versus girl person. Everyone, I believe, needs help. At that time, there wasn't anything on boys. 0.91

00:03:28.340 I thought, I've got to do this. I have to write this down. People don't realize

00:03:31.800 how far behind boys are in school, how far behind girls they are, how much more violence

00:03:36.600 they're experiencing. Across the board, in terms of our social indicators, they're having great

00:03:42.140 difficulty. What I was able to identify was a whole political landscape that was difficult,

00:03:48.880 which, of course, is hard to cover in a parenting book. I just mentioned it. What I really wanted to

00:03:54.340 do is I wanted to help, as you say, caregivers, parents, therapists, anyone at the grassroots

00:03:58.480 working with boys to be able to see these issues, to see that we don't train teachers in how the

00:04:06.240 male brain works. It's very difficult for a lot of our teachers to do as well with boys as girls

00:04:12.020 because the classroom is set up better for girls, but they don't even realize.

00:04:15.800 We don't train therapists in how to provide therapy to boys and men. Very few boys and men

00:04:22.320 stay in therapy. The therapy field is mainly for women. Obviously, that's good, but we really need 1.00

00:04:30.700 to get therapy to boys and men. They need it. We're not training the therapists in how to do it for

00:04:35.180 males, so males walk out. The problems are across the board in any area. I can give you the statistics

00:04:43.260 if you want, but I can tell people pretty much across the board now.

00:04:47.400 Yeah. Have you noticed any difference, any changes? Have things gotten worse since then,

00:04:51.580 or have things improved in some areas? What do you see now?

00:04:56.700 Well, what I'm finding is that in the areas of the country, usually in neighborhoods or in

00:05:03.140 schools or in institutions, where over the last 20 years they have raised their awareness and they've

00:05:10.880 created sustainable systemic change, that things are improving for both boys and girls.

00:05:17.260 But in much of the country, statistically, no, it's getting worse. I mean, we're putting more males in 1.00

00:05:21.860 prison. We're having more violence. Less guys going to therapy. In other words, those things we're not

00:05:31.640 solving at a kind of macro level. But at the grassroots in the last 20 years, there's been enough

00:05:37.180 consciousness raising in certain neighborhoods and institutions. And the Gurian Institute, we spend a

00:05:42.820 lot of time with them. We train a lot of teachers in their schools. In those schools, there is

00:05:47.580 improvement.

00:05:48.660 Fantastic. So you kind of alluded to one of the problems that schools or institutions face when

00:05:56.120 dealing with boys and girls. They often treat boys the same as girls or have their approach to

00:06:02.440 boys the same as they do with girls. But you make an argument that there's a difference between boys

00:06:08.040 and girls on a biological level and on a cultural level that affects the way they relate to the world

00:06:14.380 emotionally and mentally. Can you describe how these differences affect boys differently from girls?

00:06:20.720 Yeah. Yeah. These are differences in nature, nurture, and culture. So nature is what comes in on the X and

00:06:29.660 Y chromosomes, what comes in to our genetics, comes into brain development in utero before we're born.

00:06:35.820 That's nature. And the male and the female brain come in very different. So of course, it's a spectrum 1.00

00:06:41.280 of over 7 billion people now. You've got a brain spectrum, of course. And males and females can be

00:06:48.140 anywhere on that spectrum, except that the 3.5 billion males are on the male side of the spectrum.

00:06:53.380 And the 3.5 billion females are on the female side of the spectrum. And what we mean by that is that,

00:06:59.600 for instance, if you have a Y chromosome, that triggers markers while the baby's carried in utero,

00:07:08.240 and Y obviously is male, while the baby's carried in utero. And those markers trigger

00:07:12.700 testosterone to flood through the male system, so through the male cells and the male tissue. 0.99

00:07:19.300 And that testosterone reformats the brain. So for instance, you and I and every male listening to

00:07:26.400 this, we don't have the verbal centers on the right side that every female listening to this has. 1.00

00:07:33.140 And that was all set in utero. That was all set via the X and the Y chromosome and then their linkage

00:07:38.400 to the markers and then to the flow of hormones and the reformatting. So all that happens actually

00:07:44.960 between around six months in utero. So when babies are born, they're born boys and girls. And again,

00:07:52.280 that's a spectrum. There's no stereotype. It's a spectrum. But the girls, no matter what culture 1.00

00:07:57.880 they're from, no matter what continent, doesn't matter, they're going to have verbal centers on

00:08:03.080 both sides of their brains. And they're going to have linkage between those verbal centers and

00:08:07.460 their emotive centers and their sensorial centers on both sides of the brain. Males are going to have 0.73

00:08:13.080 the verbal centers on the left. And they're going to have, therefore, linkage only on the left for the

00:08:18.480 emotions and senses. On the right, males have visual graphic and spatial mechanical centers.

00:08:25.220 And so, for instance, I did my two years of my comparative research in Turkey. I could go to a

00:08:31.640 village in eastern Turkey that was polygamous, where the culture was completely different than New York

00:08:38.240 urban culture. But the play patterns and the behavior patterns of the males and the females

00:08:43.560 were exactly the same, because the brains are the same, right? Male brains are male brains,

00:08:49.800 female brains are female brains. Well, no one else had really, I guess, put this together in the way

00:08:54.560 I had for child development before the wonder of boys. And I think that's why the wonder of boys sort

00:08:58.180 of surprised people. And that's the research that I find that nature-based research very,

00:09:03.380 very fascinating. However, we include nurture and culture, too, because nature, nurture, and culture

00:09:08.980 are all important for gender. So we take the nature. We're nature-based. I'm a nature-based

00:09:13.980 theorist. I take nature first. Then I look at nurture and culture in the neighborhood, in the

00:09:19.640 community. And what we find is that these brain differences are robust. Worldwide, they're robust.

00:09:25.940 Then each family and each community nurtures and enculturates. And if we understand the nature-based

00:09:32.520 differences, the great thing is we're able to intervene in the nurture and in the culture to

00:09:37.540 say, hey, you know, like, look at this school. The nurturing system in this school really does

00:09:42.720 not understand the way these male brains are set up. No one has shown these wonderful teachers' brain

00:09:47.700 scans. So our team goes in and shows the brain scans and says, look how different these brains are

00:09:52.360 here. Okay, let's do these things. So, for instance, with males, they'll need to physically move 0.90

00:09:57.300 around more in order to concentrate. And that will not be true of every male, but it'll be true 1.00

00:10:01.600 in a classroom of 25. It'll be true of around four to five males. So, okay, the teacher knows to do

00:10:07.880 that now and, you know, has strategies now for doing that so that that male can physically move 0.82

00:10:12.700 around to stimulate parts of his brain that don't get stimulated if he sits still. But in a female 1.00

00:10:18.600 brain, those parts of the brain do get stimulated. So that's one of the reasons boys are getting,

00:10:23.240 you know, 70% of the D's and F's in the U.S. right now is that these wonderful teachers don't know

00:10:30.200 this. But once they know it, then it really changes the kids' lives.

00:10:34.760 What are your thoughts about, you know, there's been a lot of reports lately about

00:10:38.220 the growing use of Ritalin and stimulants like that to keep boys, I mean, is that being over-prescribed

00:10:44.640 for ADD?

00:10:45.620 Yeah.

00:10:46.520 Well, we have two things going on. One thing is, and these are, in a sense, two separate topics.

00:10:51.760 Sure.

00:10:51.900 One thing is that the, you know, most of the Ritalin is being used in the U.S., and we want

00:10:58.360 to remember that most of these diagnoses are in the U.S. So, you know, the way in which these two

00:11:04.000 things relate is in that, but they're from different etiologies, different sources.

00:11:08.900 The misdiagnosis, the source of that is what I just described in the schools and then in the

00:11:14.180 parents. You know, they feel a lot of pressure. They want their son to succeed. He's having trouble.

00:11:18.100 They don't understand that some of the trouble comes from the lack of training of the teachers.

00:11:22.680 So they try to get them on drugs. And then the school is saying, look, you know, the kid can't

00:11:28.220 focus. He can't sit still. Whenever I hear that one, you know, then I know it's probably going to

00:11:32.160 be misdiagnosed because it's, you know, pretty normal for these five boys to not sit still. But

00:11:37.640 that's the misdiagnosis. So it comes from just a lack of information and a lack of training.

00:11:43.860 But on the other hand, we are also creating more brain disordered kids in this generation.

00:11:51.620 And that's an issue of genetics and environmental toxins. And that's like a whole other program.

00:11:57.680 That's about genetics and epigenetics. And you maybe have had other geneticists on to talk about

00:12:03.040 that, both in the dad's sperm and in the mom, you know, carrying the baby ovaries. We believe there

00:12:10.680 are some things happening genetically because of plastics and estrogen receptors and these things

00:12:15.020 that we're trying to figure out now. So we have an increase in brain disorders for both boys and

00:12:20.160 girls. But we also have a misdiagnosis for boys on the ADD.

00:12:25.680 So you mentioned culture being an important part of what a boy needs or what is an important part of

00:12:31.660 what makes up a boy's emotional and mental life. And in your book, The Wonder of Boys,

00:12:36.320 you describe a few components of male culture that, I mean, I got the gist that it was sort

00:12:41.800 of ubiquitous around the globe, sort of like high-level principles of what makes up a male

00:12:47.260 culture.

00:12:48.740 Yeah. And yes, absolutely. What I'm always trying to put in my books are things that I can prove

00:12:55.080 worldwide, you know, so that we can kind of all process ourselves beyond the nature versus

00:13:02.560 nurture. So some of the cultural elements that I'm looking at, like for instance, wherever I study

00:13:08.960 boys, I can see that they are creating a culture that involves more aggression nurturance, for

00:13:17.540 instance, than girls are. So I need to describe what that is. Aggression nurturance is different 1.00

00:13:24.720 than empathy nurturance. Empathy nurturance tends to be more verbal emotives. So it's more,

00:13:29.940 how do you feel? And it asks for and receives back information about feelings, and it uses words

00:13:37.320 to transmit that information. And it, memories and stories, you know, to transmit that information.

00:13:43.720 And it tends to be more softer. So it's soft touch oriented. You know, I come to you and I touch you and

00:13:50.040 I say, how do you feel? How can I help you? That's empathy nurturance. We all practice it, males and females.

00:13:55.720 Females tend to practice it more, and for longer periods of time, because they use more words for 1.00

00:14:02.980 their emotions. Males tend to form cultures that use more aggression nurturance. And aggression

00:14:10.120 nurturance is, if someone falls down, it's get up, get up, we need you. You're okay, come on, get up.

00:14:16.600 And because there's an aggression game being played, there's competition being played, you know,

00:14:22.600 and the self-esteem is not based as much in, in, in feeling immediate empathy and extending that

00:14:28.180 empathy. The self-esteem, the transmission of self-esteem comes through this competitive game

00:14:34.440 or something that involves aggression. And it involves pushing each other and bopping each other 0.53

00:14:40.400 on the head, you know, and wrestling and all of these things where males are transmitting love. 0.69

00:14:46.020 Now, both males and females can wrestle. Both males and females can talk about their feelings. So

00:14:49.540 everyone is using both empathy and aggression nurturance. But in any culture that we study,

00:14:54.540 boys and girls, we see males creating their culture around more aggression and nurturance.

00:15:00.640 And so that's an example of, of boy culture that we have to more deeply understand than we do.

00:15:06.880 We, we, we can't just say, okay, you hitting your friend on the head is, is wrong. Go to the

00:15:13.120 principle, right? We have to, we have to look at aggression, nurturance, say, wow, that was actually

00:15:18.240 a very nurturing gesture, but it scared this person over here who doesn't understand it. Whereas these

00:15:25.000 two boys are nurturing each other and they're, and they're helping each other. And one of the big

00:15:31.020 messages for me in all this, and this is for both boys and girls is we intervene way, way too much

00:15:36.060 and way too quickly in the lives of these kids. These kids are trying to be themselves and they're

00:15:43.800 trying to challenge each other. And, and unless there's danger, unless they're really dangerous

00:15:50.260 to each other, which a swat on the head is not danger, unless there's danger, we need to step back

00:15:55.960 and study their culture better. And so that's what that chapter on boy culture is about to help,

00:16:00.500 to help people study boy culture so that we don't keep overreacting to it and robbing it of its

00:16:05.960 assets. Well, how do you, that kind of brings up a question. How do you, you know, bullying is a big

00:16:11.400 problem. It's in the news a lot. How do you make that distinction between sort of that aggression

00:16:15.900 nurturance where boys are sort of just razzing each other good naturedly, but, but how do you make that

00:16:21.980 distinction between that and bullying? Because I think some parents would say that any type of

00:16:26.020 aggression nurturance is bullying and they would just like, right. Well that, that, again, that's

00:16:30.720 just because we spent so little time studying boys. Um, if we study boys, what we see is that

00:16:35.980 there is a difference between aggression and violence. And I think, you know, I know all of us

00:16:41.820 want to stop violence. Um, so what I, so part of my work has been to create a distinction. In other

00:16:48.360 words, everywhere I go, every lecture I give, you know, every keynote I give, I always make this

00:16:52.780 distinction and say, all right, let's distinguish now between what's aggression and what's violence.

00:16:57.500 So we stop overreacting to aggression. So aggression is one organism or, or nation state,

00:17:03.540 obviously it could be a country, uh, one organism that tries to, uh, manipulate, control, challenge, uh, um,

00:17:11.280 or exploit another organism. So everyone's aggressive, including girls, right? Boys and girls,

00:17:17.280 you know, we're all aggressive maybe in different ways, but everyone will have an aggressive moment in

00:17:21.520 life in which we will be trying to control someone else, manipulate, et cetera. Parents are very

00:17:25.760 aggressive with kids. Kids are aggressive with parents, et cetera. That's aggression. That's not

00:17:30.680 violence. So the kid pushing the other kid and then them laughing, uh, that's challenge. That's

00:17:37.800 nurturance. That's yeah. I'm, you know, I manipulated you by pushing you. Uh, but there's no danger.

00:17:43.680 Okay. Now violence is when one organism or system attempts to destroy, attempts to

00:17:51.460 destroy the other organism. And we include in that destruction of core self, uh, because we got

00:17:59.080 to include psychological, psychological abuse or emotional violence. So if, if I push another

00:18:05.960 kid into a locker and then we both laugh about it and then the other one grabs the other one,

00:18:10.680 puts him in a, you know, a stranglehold and we're all laughing about it. We need to realize that this

00:18:15.560 is a transmission of love. So that's obviously not bullying. Bullying would have to be violent.

00:18:22.760 And that would mean that I, let's use me, I'm trying to destroy the core self of this other

00:18:29.180 person. So for instance, if, if I, um, am a bigot and I, you know, call someone else, uh, a nigger or 0.99

00:18:38.400 call someone else a fag. And I keep doing that. It's very clear. I'm a bigot. And I want to destroy 1.00

00:18:43.100 the core self of this other person that is bullying and that is violent and that's psychologically 0.93

00:18:49.380 abusive and hurtful. But so many of these other things are not. And so the FBI has tried to come

00:18:55.520 out and say, okay, how much bullying is actually going on? And the last statistic I saw was 13%.

00:19:00.960 So we would say 13% is too high. We would rather that was zero. Uh, but at the same time,

00:19:07.220 that does also mean that most of these interactions are not bullying. And so I'm begging us to study it

00:19:13.320 all more carefully so that we figure out what really is destruction of core self. And that's

00:19:19.540 what we focus on. Okay. Um, so in one part of the book, you talk about the stages of a boy's

00:19:26.440 emotional and mental development. I know we can kind of detail, but kind of a rough sketch. I mean,

00:19:31.820 from, from, from infancy to, you know, early twenties, what, what sort of stages do boys go

00:19:39.680 through and what can parents role models do to help them journey navigate safely through these

00:19:48.060 different stages? Uh, well, I'll, let me pull out a few. Cause as you said, I mean, it's just so much

00:19:53.780 there. Um, but let me pull out a few because it's, it's in a way, you know, one of the most important

00:19:58.820 questions we can ask since our kids are developmental. So, so what works for them when

00:20:03.180 they're, you know, two won't work later. So let's just pull out, I'll pull out a few, let's pull out

00:20:07.840 birth to two. I mean, so there's, there's a time when it's really, it's really, once we have food,

00:20:13.500 shelter and clothing, let's just assume we have that it's really about attachment. And, and so it's

00:20:18.000 going to be all about bonding and attachment. And in that stage, some things for folks to look at.

00:20:23.480 So if anyone listening has a baby birth to two, you know, look at things like screen time,

00:20:28.600 like how much of the child's time is he spending in front of a screen? Um, and therefore not, you

00:20:36.800 know, maybe not bonding or, um, uh, you know, that, that's sort of, if they spending a lot of time,

00:20:42.640 like in his daycare or childcare facility, and they're watching a couple of movies, then that's not

00:20:47.720 good for him because it's, it's really all about bonding. And then it's also about physical

00:20:52.480 kinesthetic exploration of the world so that his, his brain tissue and his synapses. So they close

00:20:58.420 and they build in the way they need to. So those are like some key things to look at there. If he's

00:21:04.300 staring at a screen, he's not touching things. He's not grabbing things. He's not, uh, out in the

00:21:09.460 world. And so we could be negatively affecting his brain development. And obviously if he's not

00:21:13.440 attached, we could be negatively affecting his brain development. So for instance, if both parents

00:21:17.460 are working, which many are, and that can be absolutely fine, um, make sure that that boy has

00:21:23.300 at least one other caregiver during the day that he's being held by and bonding with,

00:21:28.720 uh, especially birth to two, because one of the things that gets missed with boys is people

00:21:33.080 think of them as tough, et cetera. And they don't realize that birth to two, there are some ways in

00:21:37.080 which the bonding mechanisms for males are really more fragile than we realize, uh, that they need

00:21:43.120 a lot more bonding than maybe the stereotype would tell us. So, so that, that would be very

00:21:48.120 important. Uh, pick another one, let's say in the four to six age group. So now obviously in that

00:21:54.060 developmental stage, they've, they've, they've developed, et cetera. Um, it's a key thing that

00:21:58.220 happens there is parents may notice that the boy is not developing certain things as quickly as maybe

00:22:04.040 his sister did. And that could still be very normal boys, boys, reading, writing, anything that has to do

00:22:10.500 with their verbals, which is word production. Um, uh, for a lot of boys, they're a year to a year

00:22:15.960 and a half behind girls in that. So, um, when you use an aggregate of thousands and thousands of boys

00:22:22.160 and girls, you see that more girls are speaking in fuller sentences more quickly than more boys.

00:22:26.880 Uh, so a lot of people hold their, their boys back, uh, in kindergarten and that's fine. That can be

00:22:32.760 fine. So in other words, just be aware that there are these developmental differences jumping ahead to

00:22:38.060 early, early, like 10 to 12. That's another big stage. A couple number of things go on. One is

00:22:43.500 brain pruning. So just know that between 10 and 12, what your son is doing now between 10 and 12,

00:22:50.620 that will probably stay. It's a use it or lose it thing that goes on in the brain. So that, so if

00:22:56.280 he's playing three hours of video games, which I hope he's not, uh, just remember that could damage

00:23:01.340 him for life in the sense that those are the synapses. That's the brain, that's the stuff that'll

00:23:06.160 stay the gray matter that'll stay because the brain will prune out what's not being used.

00:23:10.320 So we would really rather between 10 and 12, that he's doing things that, you know, are going to be

00:23:15.260 important for his meaning in life, his purpose, his, his talent set, uh, and his social emotional

00:23:20.740 bonding to more, do as much of that as we can, since that's, what's going to stay and, and, you know,

00:23:27.100 stuff that isn't really as good for him in the longterm, maybe, you know, maybe don't do those.

00:23:31.040 Uh, another thing that goes on, I'll do one more jump to like 13, 14 is this, the psychological

00:23:37.420 separation. So there's a lot of individuation that goes on now and, and, um, can't happen

00:23:43.400 earlier, can't happen later. This is just sort of the general time for it. And moms may notice 0.85

00:23:48.520 that the boys are pulling away. Well, a danger zone can be if the boys psychologically pull away

00:23:53.940 from mom, which they, which many of them have to, they've got to figure out what a man is.

00:23:57.920 If they, you know, it's really normal for any child to individuate, but if there isn't 1.00

00:24:02.200 dad around, or if there aren't two or three other males around, um, who can mentor these

00:24:07.540 boys, we have this big problem right now with, with these early adolescent boys who don't

00:24:14.100 have male mentors, don't have fathers, don't have male role models, but they do have to

00:24:18.660 individuate from mom. So they're basically isolated and alone developmentally. And, and, you

00:24:24.660 know, that leads to obviously can lead to prison gangs, uh, lack of motivation in school, et

00:24:30.740 cetera. I mean, all sorts of bad things. So we want to focus, uh, if someone's listening

00:24:35.240 in that has kids at that age group, look around and make sure there's dad and, or two or three

00:24:40.500 other, uh, males around who, you know, this boy can walk in the footsteps of those males

00:24:46.300 as he psychologically individuates from mom. Okay. Those are a few.

00:24:50.700 Yeah, that was, that was great. Um, and that last bit about having, um, not just dad, but

00:24:55.100 also male mentors around leads me to my next question. Um, one part of your book that I

00:24:59.280 just really loved is when you talk about the importance of the three families, uh, in a

00:25:04.640 boy's life. Cause I think that's something that doesn't get really focused on very much.

00:25:09.380 When we talk about nurturing our children, um, can you talk about what those three families

00:25:13.980 are and what role they should play in a, in a boy's life?

00:25:19.480 I, I, I believe, I mean, I based this in, you know, in, in my research base, which is

00:25:24.400 science, which is, so I'm, I'm using neuroanthropology, neuroscience, neuropsychology.

00:25:28.860 As I look at, uh, at the, at this data, um, around the world, I, I, the patterns I see

00:25:35.860 are patterns in which the healthiest kids, both male and female are kids raised in some

00:25:42.080 form of, of, of three family system rather than in one nuclear family, but a three family

00:25:48.020 system. So what it means is you've got the nuclear unit. Of course, that's the initial

00:25:51.960 attachment unit. So that unit could be, it could be hetero. It could be mom and dad could

00:25:57.700 be intact hetero, right? Mom and dad, um, intact family. It also could be adoptive family.

00:26:04.920 It also could be two men or two women. So a gay or lesbian family, it also, you know,

00:26:11.080 there's a lot of divorce. It could be a divorced family and then becomes a blended family, or

00:26:14.900 it could be a single parent after a divorce or a non-marriage. So that's the nuclear unit. 0.80

00:26:21.380 And, um, the way nature seems to have set up human development is with the understanding

00:26:27.220 that there's fragility in the nuclear unit, because as we not only look at the U S and other

00:26:32.300 cultures, but look back at history, we noticed that every nuclear unit had right around it,

00:26:38.660 extended family systems, grandma, grandpa, aunt, uncle, cousins, that whole extended family

00:26:43.180 unit. That's the second family. Now in the U S we're, we're mobile and it's a huge country.

00:26:49.160 So very often the grandparents don't live next to the kids. So that's fair enough, but the human

00:26:54.720 being is wired for that second family. So I'm, what I'm always advising parents are don't just

00:27:01.460 rely on nuclear family, uh, look at your own family, keep that as strong and safe as you can

00:27:05.940 and keep having these, the second family around you. Um, so that nanny could be second family, 1.00

00:27:13.240 the daycare providers, we want them to be second family. In other words, we want one or two of them

00:27:16.880 really bonded with our kid, like second family. Um, obviously if our blood realms are around,

00:27:21.880 then we want to use them and exploit them. Yes. Uh, if they're not around, we want to look at

00:27:25.960 co-op. We want to look at any kind of structure or system. And later it could be boy scouts later.

00:27:31.760 It could be big brothers, big sisters, whatever, all systems in which there are these other people

00:27:37.260 who become intimate with in their bond with our child, like a grandma or grandpa. That's,

00:27:42.200 that's always the sort of standard. Uh, so you've got first family, however it's formed,

00:27:46.940 but it's fragile. And so we therefore need second family. And then what wraps around the second

00:27:51.360 family has always been a tribal community. And this also we can see anthropologically throughout

00:27:58.100 history. So human beings, we've got to remember human beings are nature-based. All this culture

00:28:03.300 stuff is really, really recent, right? Human beings are nature-based. Our cells are wired.

00:28:09.300 Our chromosomes are wired, uh, for a certain kind of nurture. So we want to remember the tribal

00:28:15.540 nurture. That's the third family. So now for us, many of us are not in tribes per se, 0.85

00:28:21.020 but our religious group, if we're at all religious, that can be a third family. Our school, uh, we want

00:28:26.740 to be going to schools or interacting with schools in such a way that they are like third family at 0.80

00:28:31.700 least. And some, when they're very small schools, they can become like second family, but the larger

00:28:35.800 schools, you know, let's at least make sure they're like third family so that, uh, so those institutions 0.99

00:28:40.800 wrap around and support, um, what's being done in the second and the first family. And so that

00:28:45.880 there's constant interaction between these two, not, uh, not isolation between the nuclear family

00:28:50.580 and the school. If people think this way, then people are thinking first, second, and third family.

00:28:57.160 And then that's, that ends the kind of negative trend that I think we have where, where people will

00:29:03.220 say, well, you know, if you could just give me three tips to have a healthy child, uh, or what's,

00:29:08.360 what's the one thing I should say to my son to get him to be healthy. That's not the, that's not

00:29:14.100 how human beings are wired to parent. Uh, and that's not how kids are wired to receive love and to

00:29:19.120 grow. Uh, the one thing I can always tell people, if you want to have a healthy kid, I can't, I can't

00:29:25.640 tell you what his or her genetics are. So that, that's its own thing. But if you want to have a

00:29:29.640 healthy kid, your best chance of that is a strong first, second, and third family relationship.

00:29:35.380 Do you, do you think like the disintegration of the second family and third family in American

00:29:42.380 life? Cause I feel like we're not really community based anymore, right? Like you said, um, people

00:29:46.100 get up and move away from their extended family and then they belong to sort of these anonymous,

00:29:51.500 you know, large schools or large corporations or large networks. Um, do you think that's been a

00:29:58.460 contributed to, you know, some of the, these like really troubling, um, instances we've seen

00:30:03.120 with young men with guns, like these mass shooters, right? And they all seem to describe the same

00:30:07.400 thing. Like they feel alone or like no one saw them or recognize them or respected them. Um, does

00:30:13.420 that disintegration of those three families play a part in that? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean,

00:30:18.880 over the years, over the last seven, 16, 17 years, I've been asked to look, you know, either by other

00:30:26.160 professionals or by the media at the profiles of school shooters and, you know, to try to do some

00:30:31.220 consulting and some assistance. And so what I've been able to see in this is that the, the social

00:30:36.020 isolation, um, cascading into depression or chicken and egg depression, then social isolation,

00:30:42.140 um, uh, nuclear family, family generally is somewhat disintegrated. Uh, but if not nuclear,

00:30:49.560 you know, very isolation from extended family, isolation from these other three or four people who,

00:30:56.220 who we need to be bonded to this kid. And then in the third family, as you've described,

00:31:00.060 that's where the bullying can often take place. Um, uh, and that creates even more isolation,

00:31:06.040 obviously in pain. And, and so one of the things I've, I've tried to say is really what you're

00:31:11.100 saying, which is that we should go back and look at the disintegration of the three families around

00:31:17.880 these kids. And as a nation, that's really what we ought to be targeting. We need to really reeducate,

00:31:25.500 um, basically I think reeducate the American populace to understand that it takes three

00:31:31.240 families. And so every parent needs, you know, some advice, you know, advice or training or,

00:31:37.840 or just a cultural conversation so that they look at these things so that these guys don't have to

00:31:42.840 become so isolated. Because if I would, some of these guys, you know, are genetically sociopathic,

00:31:49.320 that's different, that that's not created, right? That that's pre-birth, but most of them have been

00:31:54.780 abused in some terrible way, which would not have happened if they weren't, if they weren't so

00:31:59.020 isolated and, or they're very isolated. So it's multivariable. So when you put all that together,

00:32:04.580 you have to bracket out genetics, but at least you can, you can look at your nuclear, look at your

00:32:09.280 extended and look at your tribal or your communal and say, okay, basic developmental assistance

00:32:14.980 for these guys does not exist. They're socially isolated and they're chronically depressed.

00:32:20.360 And, and for males, that is more likely going to turn to violence than for females.

00:32:24.760 Okay. Um, I know a lot of our listeners are our dads. Um, how should fathers approach and think

00:32:30.820 about their role as a father in order to maximize their son's personal growth and emotional and

00:32:36.640 mental health? Uh, I'm going to, I want to say two things at once to fathers. Sure. And one is just

00:32:44.160 be yourself, you know, and because there's a lot out there about, you know, here's the way you

00:32:49.020 should father. Well, my message is you be yourself, be yourself. Um, as you're being yourself,

00:32:55.280 do these things, transmit your values to your son, because ultimately his journey is a journey of

00:33:04.280 character development. He, he wants to live a life of purpose and he wants to figure out what a man is.

00:33:09.920 And every one of us, even us in these generations, you know, uh, in our feminist and post-feminist

00:33:15.540 generations, um, the culture can do what the culture wants, but these boys want to know what

00:33:21.300 a man is. And if they don't know what a man is, they're going to be 20, 25, 30, 35, and they're

00:33:27.140 still not going to know. And that is a very difficult way to be an adult male. So transmit these

00:33:34.120 values, transmit your life stories, um, uh, into, you know, pour yourself into this boy

00:33:40.240 in the way that is you, not in the way that's Gurian, but in the way that's you. And so for

00:33:46.560 some of these guys, it will not involve a lot of words, you know, for some, some fathers, they're

00:33:51.600 being told they should talk all the time, but that's not how they're set up. So for them, they

00:33:55.560 need to do everything. They'll always be doing things. Um, okay. Told you to mow the lawn while

00:34:01.080 you're mowing the lawn, I'm going to be weeding. I'm going to be right here. My presence is

00:34:04.560 going to be right here near you, let's say, and not every day, but you know, once a week

00:34:08.240 or I need to fix the car and you want to play a video game. No, I think you should come out

00:34:13.960 and fix the car with me because, because what the boy needs is father presence, right? He

00:34:19.320 needs father presence in the way that father is father. And if it's in fixing a car, then

00:34:23.800 that's where the pouring of that man, of that guy's manhood, of his fatherhood, of his

00:34:28.880 being and self that's going to pour in through the fixing of the car. And there may be very

00:34:34.100 few words spoken. Now for other guys, me, I'm very talkative. I'm a talker. So I'm constantly

00:34:39.040 wanting to talk. Well, that's fine too. However, it is that the transmission of this goes on,

00:34:45.300 let it go on. Okay. Then the second major thing I say to fathers is that we live in a time

00:34:51.500 that is very confused about fathering. So if, if, uh, and we know, however, that the lack

00:34:59.520 of the father is one of the primary determinants of male distress, right? So that father is really,

00:35:07.460 really important. Now there certainly are some fathers, maybe 5% of fathers who are just dangerous,

00:35:12.660 bad people. So I'm going to bracket them out for this answer, but most fathers are, are good

00:35:18.800 enough. And, um, so to the father and to, and to moms, you know, if mom and dad are fighting,

00:35:25.580 that should have nothing to do with the father's relationship with his son. And if mom and dad

00:35:31.280 divorce, uh, it's crucial that mom backs away from shaming the father because the boy will need the 0.97

00:35:39.840 father. And of course, once the boy hits puberty, he's going to need the father even more. And one of

00:35:45.080 the saddest trends that I think is causing a lot of social problems today is that post-divorce

00:35:49.860 fathers are being forced into becoming friends with their sons. They're not transmitting. They're

00:35:55.960 not pouring themselves in. They're just basically begging for contact with these sons. And when the

00:36:01.380 son comes over, they just, you know, they'll do anything. Oh, let's go to pizza. Um, let's play

00:36:05.440 video games. You know, they'll do anything just to be friends with these sons. So the sons don't turn

00:36:09.160 away. So we're going to have to fix that as a culture because with the son, what we need to do

00:36:14.220 is even if there's a divorce or separation, we need to support, uh, the father's role with that

00:36:20.180 son. And that's going to mean women are going to have to alter some of the messages they send. 1.00

00:36:24.420 Um, even though they're very angry at their spouse and it's going to mean fathers are going to have

00:36:28.920 to fight harder to keep their father son relationship and, uh, not let it go to, you know,

00:36:35.200 a friend and I'll just entitle you and buy you anything. And that'll, that should be it.

00:36:39.820 Okay. Um, for our listeners who aren't dads, what can they do to be a male mentor? Cause I get that

00:36:47.500 question a lot is how they, how you can become a male mentor. Cause it's sort of awkward. Like you

00:36:51.640 don't want to foist yourself upon, you know, some young man, like I am, yo, I'm, I know everything

00:36:56.860 and listen to me. I mean, what, what, any practical tips if there's a guy who's just like, I want to

00:37:02.420 help, but I don't know how to do that. Uh, yes. Um, depending on age group, let's say that first

00:37:09.060 of all, let me cover the elder age group. If it's, if it's folks who are, you know, sort of retirement

00:37:12.520 and older, um, we want to get every single retired male who has time. Now that's the reason I say

00:37:19.420 retired or older. Uh, we want to get every single male who's retired connected with a younger male.

00:37:26.120 So I would beg, I'll say in this age group, I would beg you, if you're listening to go to your

00:37:31.820 faith community, to go to big brothers, big sisters, or to go to scouting or to go call your

00:37:38.960 local department of social and health services, ask them if they have a program, call your school

00:37:43.860 district and ask if you can come in and read to the kids, you know, boys and girls, obviously,

00:37:47.980 and see if a bond emerges, um, uh, call any relatives in your family. Even if they live far away,

00:37:54.200 you could still use email and Skype, get connected to at least one boy that you mentor, um, through

00:38:02.780 his developmental process. And that, that's easier because you have more time. Okay. Now

00:38:07.440 going to folks who are working for, for men who are working, but don't have kids. If you

00:38:12.240 have family members call the family members so that, you know, if they've got a son so that

00:38:17.860 you can get more involved in that son's life, some of that should happen organically because

00:38:21.700 you're the favorite uncle, let's say for one of your nephews, but if it hasn't happened

00:38:25.120 that way, then put in the call, say, listen, I've learned about this. I want to be part

00:38:28.960 of this. I want to be part of the second family. Um, and, and then go to, uh, any institution.

00:38:35.320 And right now I would say the easiest institution is the faith community because a lot of faith

00:38:41.300 communities, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, uh, a lot of faith communities are, are awakening to

00:38:47.040 this and they can be the liaison. Um, they, they, they have, for instance, rights of passage

00:38:52.620 program or confirmation programs or these things that they're trying to institute. Um,

00:38:56.800 or they're noticing that males are not going to church. They're not going to synagogue,

00:39:00.580 you know, after about 12, 13. So they really want to reinvigorate males and masculinity. So,

00:39:05.520 so call them, call the pastor, call the youth pastor, get involved in doing a trip with them.

00:39:11.060 So, so that would be if you have a faith community, if you have no faith community, you're not

00:39:14.360 involved in that, uh, then the school is a good institution, get ahold of the school counselors,

00:39:20.100 you know, and say, here's who I am. Now, some of the schools will say, well, we got to vet you.

00:39:24.560 Okay, fair enough. Be available for that and be ready for questions, you know, like embarrassing

00:39:29.620 questions about, cause they don't want, they want to make sure you're not a sexual abuser.

00:39:32.500 But if you can put yourself through that, go through that in these institutions and then say,

00:39:37.360 look, I value the mentorial relationship and I want to be a mentor. Um, and, and if the,

00:39:42.900 if the school isn't allowing you to do that, then wow, there's some advocacy you can do in that school

00:39:47.660 and say, well, why not? You know, why won't you let me? What's going on here? Uh, and same with

00:39:53.160 faith community. So really press and really push hard into all of these institutions, show them you

00:39:59.200 understand what mentoring is and make yourself available. And it may be a battle. It may be a

00:40:04.140 battle. If they haven't awakened to the need, you know, it may be a battle. Okay. Well, Michael Gurian,

00:40:08.740 we, we just scratched the surface today. Um, so, uh, where can our listeners go to find more

00:40:15.160 about your work? Uh, well, easiest way is just go to michaelgurian.com, michaelgurian.com,

00:40:23.740 M-I-C-H-A-E-L-G-U-R-I-A-N.com. And it links to every one of our different programs and, and services

00:40:31.600 and products. Fantastic. Well, Michael Gurian, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:40:35.880 Thank you. Anytime. Have me back. It's you, you're, you're doing great work. Thank you.

00:40:40.560 Thank you. Our guest here is Michael Gurian. He is the author of the book,

00:40:44.400 The Wonder of Boys. You can find that on amazon.com and also make sure to check out

00:40:49.460 michaelgurian.com for more information about his work with young men and boys.

00:40:56.040 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,

00:41:00.940 make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And again,

00:41:04.960 if you enjoy this podcast and you've got something out of it, I'd really appreciate if you go to

00:41:08.700 iTunes or Stitcher or whatever it is, use or listen to your podcast and give us a review.

00:41:13.120 Much appreciated. Until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.

00:41:18.700 Good night.

00:41:19.040 Thank you.

00:41:19.540 Bye.

00:41:19.600 Thank you.

The Art of Manliness - October 31, 2014

#87： The Wonder of Boys with Dr. Michael Gurian

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