#87： The Wonder of Boys with Dr. Michael Gurian
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Summary
In this episode of the Art of Manliness podcast, Brett McKay speaks with Michael Gurian, the author of The Wonder of Boys, about the differences between how boys and girls are different from each other in their neurobiology and how that affects how they relate to the world.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. Now there's been
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a lot of discussion in the media these past few years about what's wrong with boys, what's wrong
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with men, why aren't they succeeding in school anymore, why are they less likely to go to college
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than women now. There's all these statistics that are thrown out and whenever there's this discussion
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about what's wrong with boys, what's wrong with men, very rarely are there solutions offered and
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when solutions are offered it's often you know boys just need to be more like girls and men need
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to be more like women. Our guest today makes the case that's not necessarily true that rather we
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need to understand the unique ways that boys and a man's neurobiology affects how they relate to the
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world and adapt to our culture to that and embrace that those unique attributes of men and boys.
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His name is Michael Gurian. He's the author of 28 books and he's dedicated his life and career to
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helping teachers, helping parents, helping institutions help boys. That's been a big part
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of his career and today we're going to talk about his first book that he wrote. It's called The Wonder
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of Boys. We'll be discussing how boys and girls are different and how their brain biology affects the
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way they relate to the world. We're going to discuss the differences between how boys and girls show
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empathy. There's like this sort of stereotype that boys aren't empathetic but they are in fact
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empathetic. They just do it differently. We're going to talk about what parents can do to help their
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young men, help their boys grow into good strong men and we're also going to talk about the importance
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of things like community and extended family and nurturing and growing a young man. It's a
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fascinating discussion. We really scratched the surface of his work so you'll need to go and check
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out more on his website and we'll get that at the end of the podcast. Without further ado, let's get on
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with the show. Michael Gurian, welcome to the show. Thank you. So you have devoted your career to
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helping boys and young men and your first book that you wrote that addressed some of the problems that
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you saw in the way that schools or therapists or social workers or even parents approached how they
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helped or taught boys was a book called The Wonder of Boys. Can you describe some of these problems
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that you saw that kind of made you start looking deeper into this and how we approach helping our
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young men and boys? Yeah, this is back in the 90s, late 80s, early 90s where I was working with
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clients. I was completing my research. I did two years of research in Turkey to compare it to male-female
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behavior patterns, all of that, sort of the science base of it. Then, of course, I was seeing clients
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as a therapist. I just kept seeing more and more boys who were having trouble. I began to look at
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it not just from a personal standpoint, but on what's out there. There really wasn't much out
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there. It was a very girls-oriented time. I have two daughters, so obviously that's fine. I'm not a boy
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versus girl person. Everyone, I believe, needs help. At that time, there wasn't anything on boys.
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I thought, I've got to do this. I have to write this down. People don't realize
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how far behind boys are in school, how far behind girls they are, how much more violence
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they're experiencing. Across the board, in terms of our social indicators, they're having great
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difficulty. What I was able to identify was a whole political landscape that was difficult,
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which, of course, is hard to cover in a parenting book. I just mentioned it. What I really wanted to
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do is I wanted to help, as you say, caregivers, parents, therapists, anyone at the grassroots
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working with boys to be able to see these issues, to see that we don't train teachers in how the
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male brain works. It's very difficult for a lot of our teachers to do as well with boys as girls
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because the classroom is set up better for girls, but they don't even realize.
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We don't train therapists in how to provide therapy to boys and men. Very few boys and men
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stay in therapy. The therapy field is mainly for women. Obviously, that's good, but we really need
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to get therapy to boys and men. They need it. We're not training the therapists in how to do it for
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males, so males walk out. The problems are across the board in any area. I can give you the statistics
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if you want, but I can tell people pretty much across the board now.
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Yeah. Have you noticed any difference, any changes? Have things gotten worse since then,
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or have things improved in some areas? What do you see now?
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Well, what I'm finding is that in the areas of the country, usually in neighborhoods or in
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schools or in institutions, where over the last 20 years they have raised their awareness and they've
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created sustainable systemic change, that things are improving for both boys and girls.
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But in much of the country, statistically, no, it's getting worse. I mean, we're putting more males in
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prison. We're having more violence. Less guys going to therapy. In other words, those things we're not
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solving at a kind of macro level. But at the grassroots in the last 20 years, there's been enough
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consciousness raising in certain neighborhoods and institutions. And the Gurian Institute, we spend a
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lot of time with them. We train a lot of teachers in their schools. In those schools, there is
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Fantastic. So you kind of alluded to one of the problems that schools or institutions face when
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dealing with boys and girls. They often treat boys the same as girls or have their approach to
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boys the same as they do with girls. But you make an argument that there's a difference between boys
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and girls on a biological level and on a cultural level that affects the way they relate to the world
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emotionally and mentally. Can you describe how these differences affect boys differently from girls?
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Yeah. Yeah. These are differences in nature, nurture, and culture. So nature is what comes in on the X and
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Y chromosomes, what comes in to our genetics, comes into brain development in utero before we're born.
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That's nature. And the male and the female brain come in very different. So of course, it's a spectrum
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of over 7 billion people now. You've got a brain spectrum, of course. And males and females can be
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anywhere on that spectrum, except that the 3.5 billion males are on the male side of the spectrum.
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And the 3.5 billion females are on the female side of the spectrum. And what we mean by that is that,
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for instance, if you have a Y chromosome, that triggers markers while the baby's carried in utero,
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and Y obviously is male, while the baby's carried in utero. And those markers trigger
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testosterone to flood through the male system, so through the male cells and the male tissue.
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And that testosterone reformats the brain. So for instance, you and I and every male listening to
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this, we don't have the verbal centers on the right side that every female listening to this has.
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And that was all set in utero. That was all set via the X and the Y chromosome and then their linkage
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to the markers and then to the flow of hormones and the reformatting. So all that happens actually
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between around six months in utero. So when babies are born, they're born boys and girls. And again,
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that's a spectrum. There's no stereotype. It's a spectrum. But the girls, no matter what culture
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they're from, no matter what continent, doesn't matter, they're going to have verbal centers on
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both sides of their brains. And they're going to have linkage between those verbal centers and
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their emotive centers and their sensorial centers on both sides of the brain. Males are going to have
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the verbal centers on the left. And they're going to have, therefore, linkage only on the left for the
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emotions and senses. On the right, males have visual graphic and spatial mechanical centers.
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And so, for instance, I did my two years of my comparative research in Turkey. I could go to a
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village in eastern Turkey that was polygamous, where the culture was completely different than New York
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urban culture. But the play patterns and the behavior patterns of the males and the females
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were exactly the same, because the brains are the same, right? Male brains are male brains,
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female brains are female brains. Well, no one else had really, I guess, put this together in the way
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I had for child development before the wonder of boys. And I think that's why the wonder of boys sort
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of surprised people. And that's the research that I find that nature-based research very,
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very fascinating. However, we include nurture and culture, too, because nature, nurture, and culture
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are all important for gender. So we take the nature. We're nature-based. I'm a nature-based
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theorist. I take nature first. Then I look at nurture and culture in the neighborhood, in the
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community. And what we find is that these brain differences are robust. Worldwide, they're robust.
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Then each family and each community nurtures and enculturates. And if we understand the nature-based
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differences, the great thing is we're able to intervene in the nurture and in the culture to
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say, hey, you know, like, look at this school. The nurturing system in this school really does
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not understand the way these male brains are set up. No one has shown these wonderful teachers' brain
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scans. So our team goes in and shows the brain scans and says, look how different these brains are
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here. Okay, let's do these things. So, for instance, with males, they'll need to physically move
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around more in order to concentrate. And that will not be true of every male, but it'll be true
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in a classroom of 25. It'll be true of around four to five males. So, okay, the teacher knows to do
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that now and, you know, has strategies now for doing that so that that male can physically move
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around to stimulate parts of his brain that don't get stimulated if he sits still. But in a female
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brain, those parts of the brain do get stimulated. So that's one of the reasons boys are getting,
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you know, 70% of the D's and F's in the U.S. right now is that these wonderful teachers don't know
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this. But once they know it, then it really changes the kids' lives.
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What are your thoughts about, you know, there's been a lot of reports lately about
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the growing use of Ritalin and stimulants like that to keep boys, I mean, is that being over-prescribed
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Well, we have two things going on. One thing is, and these are, in a sense, two separate topics.
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One thing is that the, you know, most of the Ritalin is being used in the U.S., and we want
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to remember that most of these diagnoses are in the U.S. So, you know, the way in which these two
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things relate is in that, but they're from different etiologies, different sources.
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The misdiagnosis, the source of that is what I just described in the schools and then in the
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parents. You know, they feel a lot of pressure. They want their son to succeed. He's having trouble.
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They don't understand that some of the trouble comes from the lack of training of the teachers.
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So they try to get them on drugs. And then the school is saying, look, you know, the kid can't
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focus. He can't sit still. Whenever I hear that one, you know, then I know it's probably going to
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be misdiagnosed because it's, you know, pretty normal for these five boys to not sit still. But
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that's the misdiagnosis. So it comes from just a lack of information and a lack of training.
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But on the other hand, we are also creating more brain disordered kids in this generation.
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And that's an issue of genetics and environmental toxins. And that's like a whole other program.
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That's about genetics and epigenetics. And you maybe have had other geneticists on to talk about
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that, both in the dad's sperm and in the mom, you know, carrying the baby ovaries. We believe there
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are some things happening genetically because of plastics and estrogen receptors and these things
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that we're trying to figure out now. So we have an increase in brain disorders for both boys and
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girls. But we also have a misdiagnosis for boys on the ADD.
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So you mentioned culture being an important part of what a boy needs or what is an important part of
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what makes up a boy's emotional and mental life. And in your book, The Wonder of Boys,
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you describe a few components of male culture that, I mean, I got the gist that it was sort
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of ubiquitous around the globe, sort of like high-level principles of what makes up a male
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Yeah. And yes, absolutely. What I'm always trying to put in my books are things that I can prove
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worldwide, you know, so that we can kind of all process ourselves beyond the nature versus
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nurture. So some of the cultural elements that I'm looking at, like for instance, wherever I study
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boys, I can see that they are creating a culture that involves more aggression nurturance, for
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instance, than girls are. So I need to describe what that is. Aggression nurturance is different
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than empathy nurturance. Empathy nurturance tends to be more verbal emotives. So it's more,
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how do you feel? And it asks for and receives back information about feelings, and it uses words
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to transmit that information. And it, memories and stories, you know, to transmit that information.
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And it tends to be more softer. So it's soft touch oriented. You know, I come to you and I touch you and
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I say, how do you feel? How can I help you? That's empathy nurturance. We all practice it, males and females.
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Females tend to practice it more, and for longer periods of time, because they use more words for
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their emotions. Males tend to form cultures that use more aggression nurturance. And aggression
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nurturance is, if someone falls down, it's get up, get up, we need you. You're okay, come on, get up.
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And because there's an aggression game being played, there's competition being played, you know,
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and the self-esteem is not based as much in, in, in feeling immediate empathy and extending that
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empathy. The self-esteem, the transmission of self-esteem comes through this competitive game
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or something that involves aggression. And it involves pushing each other and bopping each other
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on the head, you know, and wrestling and all of these things where males are transmitting love.
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Now, both males and females can wrestle. Both males and females can talk about their feelings. So
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everyone is using both empathy and aggression nurturance. But in any culture that we study,
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boys and girls, we see males creating their culture around more aggression and nurturance.
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And so that's an example of, of boy culture that we have to more deeply understand than we do.
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We, we, we can't just say, okay, you hitting your friend on the head is, is wrong. Go to the
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principle, right? We have to, we have to look at aggression, nurturance, say, wow, that was actually
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a very nurturing gesture, but it scared this person over here who doesn't understand it. Whereas these
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two boys are nurturing each other and they're, and they're helping each other. And one of the big
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messages for me in all this, and this is for both boys and girls is we intervene way, way too much
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and way too quickly in the lives of these kids. These kids are trying to be themselves and they're
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trying to challenge each other. And, and unless there's danger, unless they're really dangerous
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to each other, which a swat on the head is not danger, unless there's danger, we need to step back
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and study their culture better. And so that's what that chapter on boy culture is about to help,
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to help people study boy culture so that we don't keep overreacting to it and robbing it of its
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assets. Well, how do you, that kind of brings up a question. How do you, you know, bullying is a big
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problem. It's in the news a lot. How do you make that distinction between sort of that aggression
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nurturance where boys are sort of just razzing each other good naturedly, but, but how do you make that
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distinction between that and bullying? Because I think some parents would say that any type of
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aggression nurturance is bullying and they would just like, right. Well that, that, again, that's
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just because we spent so little time studying boys. Um, if we study boys, what we see is that
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there is a difference between aggression and violence. And I think, you know, I know all of us
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want to stop violence. Um, so what I, so part of my work has been to create a distinction. In other
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words, everywhere I go, every lecture I give, you know, every keynote I give, I always make this
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distinction and say, all right, let's distinguish now between what's aggression and what's violence.
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So we stop overreacting to aggression. So aggression is one organism or, or nation state,
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obviously it could be a country, uh, one organism that tries to, uh, manipulate, control, challenge, uh, um,
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or exploit another organism. So everyone's aggressive, including girls, right? Boys and girls,
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you know, we're all aggressive maybe in different ways, but everyone will have an aggressive moment in
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life in which we will be trying to control someone else, manipulate, et cetera. Parents are very
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aggressive with kids. Kids are aggressive with parents, et cetera. That's aggression. That's not
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violence. So the kid pushing the other kid and then them laughing, uh, that's challenge. That's
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nurturance. That's yeah. I'm, you know, I manipulated you by pushing you. Uh, but there's no danger.
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Okay. Now violence is when one organism or system attempts to destroy, attempts to
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destroy the other organism. And we include in that destruction of core self, uh, because we got
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to include psychological, psychological abuse or emotional violence. So if, if I push another
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kid into a locker and then we both laugh about it and then the other one grabs the other one,
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puts him in a, you know, a stranglehold and we're all laughing about it. We need to realize that this
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is a transmission of love. So that's obviously not bullying. Bullying would have to be violent.
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And that would mean that I, let's use me, I'm trying to destroy the core self of this other
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person. So for instance, if, if I, um, am a bigot and I, you know, call someone else, uh, a nigger or
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call someone else a fag. And I keep doing that. It's very clear. I'm a bigot. And I want to destroy
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the core self of this other person that is bullying and that is violent and that's psychologically
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abusive and hurtful. But so many of these other things are not. And so the FBI has tried to come
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out and say, okay, how much bullying is actually going on? And the last statistic I saw was 13%.
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So we would say 13% is too high. We would rather that was zero. Uh, but at the same time,
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that does also mean that most of these interactions are not bullying. And so I'm begging us to study it
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all more carefully so that we figure out what really is destruction of core self. And that's
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what we focus on. Okay. Um, so in one part of the book, you talk about the stages of a boy's
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emotional and mental development. I know we can kind of detail, but kind of a rough sketch. I mean,
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from, from, from infancy to, you know, early twenties, what, what sort of stages do boys go
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through and what can parents role models do to help them journey navigate safely through these
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different stages? Uh, well, I'll, let me pull out a few. Cause as you said, I mean, it's just so much
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there. Um, but let me pull out a few because it's, it's in a way, you know, one of the most important
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questions we can ask since our kids are developmental. So, so what works for them when
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they're, you know, two won't work later. So let's just pull out, I'll pull out a few, let's pull out
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birth to two. I mean, so there's, there's a time when it's really, it's really, once we have food,
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shelter and clothing, let's just assume we have that it's really about attachment. And, and so it's
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going to be all about bonding and attachment. And in that stage, some things for folks to look at.
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So if anyone listening has a baby birth to two, you know, look at things like screen time,
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like how much of the child's time is he spending in front of a screen? Um, and therefore not, you
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know, maybe not bonding or, um, uh, you know, that, that's sort of, if they spending a lot of time,
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like in his daycare or childcare facility, and they're watching a couple of movies, then that's not
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good for him because it's, it's really all about bonding. And then it's also about physical
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kinesthetic exploration of the world so that his, his brain tissue and his synapses. So they close
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and they build in the way they need to. So those are like some key things to look at there. If he's
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staring at a screen, he's not touching things. He's not grabbing things. He's not, uh, out in the
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world. And so we could be negatively affecting his brain development. And obviously if he's not
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attached, we could be negatively affecting his brain development. So for instance, if both parents
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are working, which many are, and that can be absolutely fine, um, make sure that that boy has
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at least one other caregiver during the day that he's being held by and bonding with,
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uh, especially birth to two, because one of the things that gets missed with boys is people
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think of them as tough, et cetera. And they don't realize that birth to two, there are some ways in
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which the bonding mechanisms for males are really more fragile than we realize, uh, that they need
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a lot more bonding than maybe the stereotype would tell us. So, so that, that would be very
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important. Uh, pick another one, let's say in the four to six age group. So now obviously in that
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developmental stage, they've, they've, they've developed, et cetera. Um, it's a key thing that
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happens there is parents may notice that the boy is not developing certain things as quickly as maybe
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his sister did. And that could still be very normal boys, boys, reading, writing, anything that has to do
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with their verbals, which is word production. Um, uh, for a lot of boys, they're a year to a year
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and a half behind girls in that. So, um, when you use an aggregate of thousands and thousands of boys
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and girls, you see that more girls are speaking in fuller sentences more quickly than more boys.
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Uh, so a lot of people hold their, their boys back, uh, in kindergarten and that's fine. That can be
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fine. So in other words, just be aware that there are these developmental differences jumping ahead to
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early, early, like 10 to 12. That's another big stage. A couple number of things go on. One is
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brain pruning. So just know that between 10 and 12, what your son is doing now between 10 and 12,
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that will probably stay. It's a use it or lose it thing that goes on in the brain. So that, so if
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he's playing three hours of video games, which I hope he's not, uh, just remember that could damage
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him for life in the sense that those are the synapses. That's the brain, that's the stuff that'll
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stay the gray matter that'll stay because the brain will prune out what's not being used.
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So we would really rather between 10 and 12, that he's doing things that, you know, are going to be
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important for his meaning in life, his purpose, his, his talent set, uh, and his social emotional
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bonding to more, do as much of that as we can, since that's, what's going to stay and, and, you know,
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stuff that isn't really as good for him in the longterm, maybe, you know, maybe don't do those.
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Uh, another thing that goes on, I'll do one more jump to like 13, 14 is this, the psychological
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separation. So there's a lot of individuation that goes on now and, and, um, can't happen
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earlier, can't happen later. This is just sort of the general time for it. And moms may notice
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that the boys are pulling away. Well, a danger zone can be if the boys psychologically pull away
00:23:53.940
from mom, which they, which many of them have to, they've got to figure out what a man is.
00:23:57.920
If they, you know, it's really normal for any child to individuate, but if there isn't
00:24:02.200
dad around, or if there aren't two or three other males around, um, who can mentor these
00:24:07.540
boys, we have this big problem right now with, with these early adolescent boys who don't
00:24:14.100
have male mentors, don't have fathers, don't have male role models, but they do have to
00:24:18.660
individuate from mom. So they're basically isolated and alone developmentally. And, and, you
00:24:24.660
know, that leads to obviously can lead to prison gangs, uh, lack of motivation in school, et
00:24:30.740
cetera. I mean, all sorts of bad things. So we want to focus, uh, if someone's listening
00:24:35.240
in that has kids at that age group, look around and make sure there's dad and, or two or three
00:24:40.500
other, uh, males around who, you know, this boy can walk in the footsteps of those males
00:24:46.300
as he psychologically individuates from mom. Okay. Those are a few.
00:24:50.700
Yeah, that was, that was great. Um, and that last bit about having, um, not just dad, but
00:24:55.100
also male mentors around leads me to my next question. Um, one part of your book that I
00:24:59.280
just really loved is when you talk about the importance of the three families, uh, in a
00:25:04.640
boy's life. Cause I think that's something that doesn't get really focused on very much.
00:25:09.380
When we talk about nurturing our children, um, can you talk about what those three families
00:25:13.980
are and what role they should play in a, in a boy's life?
00:25:19.480
I, I, I believe, I mean, I based this in, you know, in, in my research base, which is
00:25:24.400
science, which is, so I'm, I'm using neuroanthropology, neuroscience, neuropsychology.
00:25:28.860
As I look at, uh, at the, at this data, um, around the world, I, I, the patterns I see
00:25:35.860
are patterns in which the healthiest kids, both male and female are kids raised in some
00:25:42.080
form of, of, of three family system rather than in one nuclear family, but a three family
00:25:48.020
system. So what it means is you've got the nuclear unit. Of course, that's the initial
00:25:51.960
attachment unit. So that unit could be, it could be hetero. It could be mom and dad could
00:25:57.700
be intact hetero, right? Mom and dad, um, intact family. It also could be adoptive family.
00:26:04.920
It also could be two men or two women. So a gay or lesbian family, it also, you know,
00:26:11.080
there's a lot of divorce. It could be a divorced family and then becomes a blended family, or
00:26:14.900
it could be a single parent after a divorce or a non-marriage. So that's the nuclear unit.
00:26:21.380
And, um, the way nature seems to have set up human development is with the understanding
00:26:27.220
that there's fragility in the nuclear unit, because as we not only look at the U S and other
00:26:32.300
cultures, but look back at history, we noticed that every nuclear unit had right around it,
00:26:38.660
extended family systems, grandma, grandpa, aunt, uncle, cousins, that whole extended family
00:26:43.180
unit. That's the second family. Now in the U S we're, we're mobile and it's a huge country.
00:26:49.160
So very often the grandparents don't live next to the kids. So that's fair enough, but the human
00:26:54.720
being is wired for that second family. So I'm, what I'm always advising parents are don't just
00:27:01.460
rely on nuclear family, uh, look at your own family, keep that as strong and safe as you can
00:27:05.940
and keep having these, the second family around you. Um, so that nanny could be second family,
00:27:13.240
the daycare providers, we want them to be second family. In other words, we want one or two of them
00:27:16.880
really bonded with our kid, like second family. Um, obviously if our blood realms are around,
00:27:21.880
then we want to use them and exploit them. Yes. Uh, if they're not around, we want to look at
00:27:25.960
co-op. We want to look at any kind of structure or system. And later it could be boy scouts later.
00:27:31.760
It could be big brothers, big sisters, whatever, all systems in which there are these other people
00:27:37.260
who become intimate with in their bond with our child, like a grandma or grandpa. That's,
00:27:42.200
that's always the sort of standard. Uh, so you've got first family, however it's formed,
00:27:46.940
but it's fragile. And so we therefore need second family. And then what wraps around the second
00:27:51.360
family has always been a tribal community. And this also we can see anthropologically throughout
00:27:58.100
history. So human beings, we've got to remember human beings are nature-based. All this culture
00:28:03.300
stuff is really, really recent, right? Human beings are nature-based. Our cells are wired.
00:28:09.300
Our chromosomes are wired, uh, for a certain kind of nurture. So we want to remember the tribal
00:28:15.540
nurture. That's the third family. So now for us, many of us are not in tribes per se,
00:28:21.020
but our religious group, if we're at all religious, that can be a third family. Our school, uh, we want
00:28:26.740
to be going to schools or interacting with schools in such a way that they are like third family at
00:28:31.700
least. And some, when they're very small schools, they can become like second family, but the larger
00:28:35.800
schools, you know, let's at least make sure they're like third family so that, uh, so those institutions
00:28:40.800
wrap around and support, um, what's being done in the second and the first family. And so that
00:28:45.880
there's constant interaction between these two, not, uh, not isolation between the nuclear family
00:28:50.580
and the school. If people think this way, then people are thinking first, second, and third family.
00:28:57.160
And then that's, that ends the kind of negative trend that I think we have where, where people will
00:29:03.220
say, well, you know, if you could just give me three tips to have a healthy child, uh, or what's,
00:29:08.360
what's the one thing I should say to my son to get him to be healthy. That's not the, that's not
00:29:14.100
how human beings are wired to parent. Uh, and that's not how kids are wired to receive love and to
00:29:19.120
grow. Uh, the one thing I can always tell people, if you want to have a healthy kid, I can't, I can't
00:29:25.640
tell you what his or her genetics are. So that, that's its own thing. But if you want to have a
00:29:29.640
healthy kid, your best chance of that is a strong first, second, and third family relationship.
00:29:35.380
Do you, do you think like the disintegration of the second family and third family in American
00:29:42.380
life? Cause I feel like we're not really community based anymore, right? Like you said, um, people
00:29:46.100
get up and move away from their extended family and then they belong to sort of these anonymous,
00:29:51.500
you know, large schools or large corporations or large networks. Um, do you think that's been a
00:29:58.460
contributed to, you know, some of the, these like really troubling, um, instances we've seen
00:30:03.120
with young men with guns, like these mass shooters, right? And they all seem to describe the same
00:30:07.400
thing. Like they feel alone or like no one saw them or recognize them or respected them. Um, does
00:30:13.420
that disintegration of those three families play a part in that? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean,
00:30:18.880
over the years, over the last seven, 16, 17 years, I've been asked to look, you know, either by other
00:30:26.160
professionals or by the media at the profiles of school shooters and, you know, to try to do some
00:30:31.220
consulting and some assistance. And so what I've been able to see in this is that the, the social
00:30:36.020
isolation, um, cascading into depression or chicken and egg depression, then social isolation,
00:30:42.140
um, uh, nuclear family, family generally is somewhat disintegrated. Uh, but if not nuclear,
00:30:49.560
you know, very isolation from extended family, isolation from these other three or four people who,
00:30:56.220
who we need to be bonded to this kid. And then in the third family, as you've described,
00:31:00.060
that's where the bullying can often take place. Um, uh, and that creates even more isolation,
00:31:06.040
obviously in pain. And, and so one of the things I've, I've tried to say is really what you're
00:31:11.100
saying, which is that we should go back and look at the disintegration of the three families around
00:31:17.880
these kids. And as a nation, that's really what we ought to be targeting. We need to really reeducate,
00:31:25.500
um, basically I think reeducate the American populace to understand that it takes three
00:31:31.240
families. And so every parent needs, you know, some advice, you know, advice or training or,
00:31:37.840
or just a cultural conversation so that they look at these things so that these guys don't have to
00:31:42.840
become so isolated. Because if I would, some of these guys, you know, are genetically sociopathic,
00:31:49.320
that's different, that that's not created, right? That that's pre-birth, but most of them have been
00:31:54.780
abused in some terrible way, which would not have happened if they weren't, if they weren't so
00:31:59.020
isolated and, or they're very isolated. So it's multivariable. So when you put all that together,
00:32:04.580
you have to bracket out genetics, but at least you can, you can look at your nuclear, look at your
00:32:09.280
extended and look at your tribal or your communal and say, okay, basic developmental assistance
00:32:14.980
for these guys does not exist. They're socially isolated and they're chronically depressed.
00:32:20.360
And, and for males, that is more likely going to turn to violence than for females.
00:32:24.760
Okay. Um, I know a lot of our listeners are our dads. Um, how should fathers approach and think
00:32:30.820
about their role as a father in order to maximize their son's personal growth and emotional and
00:32:36.640
mental health? Uh, I'm going to, I want to say two things at once to fathers. Sure. And one is just
00:32:44.160
be yourself, you know, and because there's a lot out there about, you know, here's the way you
00:32:49.020
should father. Well, my message is you be yourself, be yourself. Um, as you're being yourself,
00:32:55.280
do these things, transmit your values to your son, because ultimately his journey is a journey of
00:33:04.280
character development. He, he wants to live a life of purpose and he wants to figure out what a man is.
00:33:09.920
And every one of us, even us in these generations, you know, uh, in our feminist and post-feminist
00:33:15.540
generations, um, the culture can do what the culture wants, but these boys want to know what
00:33:21.300
a man is. And if they don't know what a man is, they're going to be 20, 25, 30, 35, and they're
00:33:27.140
still not going to know. And that is a very difficult way to be an adult male. So transmit these
00:33:34.120
values, transmit your life stories, um, uh, into, you know, pour yourself into this boy
00:33:40.240
in the way that is you, not in the way that's Gurian, but in the way that's you. And so for
00:33:46.560
some of these guys, it will not involve a lot of words, you know, for some, some fathers, they're
00:33:51.600
being told they should talk all the time, but that's not how they're set up. So for them, they
00:33:55.560
need to do everything. They'll always be doing things. Um, okay. Told you to mow the lawn while
00:34:01.080
you're mowing the lawn, I'm going to be weeding. I'm going to be right here. My presence is
00:34:04.560
going to be right here near you, let's say, and not every day, but you know, once a week
00:34:08.240
or I need to fix the car and you want to play a video game. No, I think you should come out
00:34:13.960
and fix the car with me because, because what the boy needs is father presence, right? He
00:34:19.320
needs father presence in the way that father is father. And if it's in fixing a car, then
00:34:23.800
that's where the pouring of that man, of that guy's manhood, of his fatherhood, of his
00:34:28.880
being and self that's going to pour in through the fixing of the car. And there may be very
00:34:34.100
few words spoken. Now for other guys, me, I'm very talkative. I'm a talker. So I'm constantly
00:34:39.040
wanting to talk. Well, that's fine too. However, it is that the transmission of this goes on,
00:34:45.300
let it go on. Okay. Then the second major thing I say to fathers is that we live in a time
00:34:51.500
that is very confused about fathering. So if, if, uh, and we know, however, that the lack
00:34:59.520
of the father is one of the primary determinants of male distress, right? So that father is really,
00:35:07.460
really important. Now there certainly are some fathers, maybe 5% of fathers who are just dangerous,
00:35:12.660
bad people. So I'm going to bracket them out for this answer, but most fathers are, are good
00:35:18.800
enough. And, um, so to the father and to, and to moms, you know, if mom and dad are fighting,
00:35:25.580
that should have nothing to do with the father's relationship with his son. And if mom and dad
00:35:31.280
divorce, uh, it's crucial that mom backs away from shaming the father because the boy will need the
00:35:39.840
father. And of course, once the boy hits puberty, he's going to need the father even more. And one of
00:35:45.080
the saddest trends that I think is causing a lot of social problems today is that post-divorce
00:35:49.860
fathers are being forced into becoming friends with their sons. They're not transmitting. They're
00:35:55.960
not pouring themselves in. They're just basically begging for contact with these sons. And when the
00:36:01.380
son comes over, they just, you know, they'll do anything. Oh, let's go to pizza. Um, let's play
00:36:05.440
video games. You know, they'll do anything just to be friends with these sons. So the sons don't turn
00:36:09.160
away. So we're going to have to fix that as a culture because with the son, what we need to do
00:36:14.220
is even if there's a divorce or separation, we need to support, uh, the father's role with that
00:36:20.180
son. And that's going to mean women are going to have to alter some of the messages they send.
00:36:24.420
Um, even though they're very angry at their spouse and it's going to mean fathers are going to have
00:36:28.920
to fight harder to keep their father son relationship and, uh, not let it go to, you know,
00:36:35.200
a friend and I'll just entitle you and buy you anything. And that'll, that should be it.
00:36:39.820
Okay. Um, for our listeners who aren't dads, what can they do to be a male mentor? Cause I get that
00:36:47.500
question a lot is how they, how you can become a male mentor. Cause it's sort of awkward. Like you
00:36:51.640
don't want to foist yourself upon, you know, some young man, like I am, yo, I'm, I know everything
00:36:56.860
and listen to me. I mean, what, what, any practical tips if there's a guy who's just like, I want to
00:37:02.420
help, but I don't know how to do that. Uh, yes. Um, depending on age group, let's say that first
00:37:09.060
of all, let me cover the elder age group. If it's, if it's folks who are, you know, sort of retirement
00:37:12.520
and older, um, we want to get every single retired male who has time. Now that's the reason I say
00:37:19.420
retired or older. Uh, we want to get every single male who's retired connected with a younger male.
00:37:26.120
So I would beg, I'll say in this age group, I would beg you, if you're listening to go to your
00:37:31.820
faith community, to go to big brothers, big sisters, or to go to scouting or to go call your
00:37:38.960
local department of social and health services, ask them if they have a program, call your school
00:37:43.860
district and ask if you can come in and read to the kids, you know, boys and girls, obviously,
00:37:47.980
and see if a bond emerges, um, uh, call any relatives in your family. Even if they live far away,
00:37:54.200
you could still use email and Skype, get connected to at least one boy that you mentor, um, through
00:38:02.780
his developmental process. And that, that's easier because you have more time. Okay. Now
00:38:07.440
going to folks who are working for, for men who are working, but don't have kids. If you
00:38:12.240
have family members call the family members so that, you know, if they've got a son so that
00:38:17.860
you can get more involved in that son's life, some of that should happen organically because
00:38:21.700
you're the favorite uncle, let's say for one of your nephews, but if it hasn't happened
00:38:25.120
that way, then put in the call, say, listen, I've learned about this. I want to be part
00:38:28.960
of this. I want to be part of the second family. Um, and, and then go to, uh, any institution.
00:38:35.320
And right now I would say the easiest institution is the faith community because a lot of faith
00:38:41.300
communities, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, uh, a lot of faith communities are, are awakening to
00:38:47.040
this and they can be the liaison. Um, they, they, they have, for instance, rights of passage
00:38:52.620
program or confirmation programs or these things that they're trying to institute. Um,
00:38:56.800
or they're noticing that males are not going to church. They're not going to synagogue,
00:39:00.580
you know, after about 12, 13. So they really want to reinvigorate males and masculinity. So,
00:39:05.520
so call them, call the pastor, call the youth pastor, get involved in doing a trip with them.
00:39:11.060
So, so that would be if you have a faith community, if you have no faith community, you're not
00:39:14.360
involved in that, uh, then the school is a good institution, get ahold of the school counselors,
00:39:20.100
you know, and say, here's who I am. Now, some of the schools will say, well, we got to vet you.
00:39:24.560
Okay, fair enough. Be available for that and be ready for questions, you know, like embarrassing
00:39:29.620
questions about, cause they don't want, they want to make sure you're not a sexual abuser.
00:39:32.500
But if you can put yourself through that, go through that in these institutions and then say,
00:39:37.360
look, I value the mentorial relationship and I want to be a mentor. Um, and, and if the,
00:39:42.900
if the school isn't allowing you to do that, then wow, there's some advocacy you can do in that school
00:39:47.660
and say, well, why not? You know, why won't you let me? What's going on here? Uh, and same with
00:39:53.160
faith community. So really press and really push hard into all of these institutions, show them you
00:39:59.200
understand what mentoring is and make yourself available. And it may be a battle. It may be a
00:40:04.140
battle. If they haven't awakened to the need, you know, it may be a battle. Okay. Well, Michael Gurian,
00:40:08.740
we, we just scratched the surface today. Um, so, uh, where can our listeners go to find more
00:40:15.160
about your work? Uh, well, easiest way is just go to michaelgurian.com, michaelgurian.com,
00:40:23.740
M-I-C-H-A-E-L-G-U-R-I-A-N.com. And it links to every one of our different programs and, and services
00:40:31.600
and products. Fantastic. Well, Michael Gurian, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.
00:40:35.880
Thank you. Anytime. Have me back. It's you, you're, you're doing great work. Thank you.
00:40:40.560
Thank you. Our guest here is Michael Gurian. He is the author of the book,
00:40:44.400
The Wonder of Boys. You can find that on amazon.com and also make sure to check out
00:40:49.460
michaelgurian.com for more information about his work with young men and boys.
00:40:56.040
Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,
00:41:00.940
make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And again,
00:41:04.960
if you enjoy this podcast and you've got something out of it, I'd really appreciate if you go to
00:41:08.700
iTunes or Stitcher or whatever it is, use or listen to your podcast and give us a review.
00:41:13.120
Much appreciated. Until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.