#88： Edit Your Personal Story for Lasting Change with Dr. Tim Wilson
Episode Stats
Summary
Timothy Wilson is a professor of psychology at the University of Virginia and the author of the book, "Redirect: The Surprising New Science of Psychological Change." In this episode, we discuss his research on how to edit the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves.
Transcript
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Brent McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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So there are tons and tons of self-help books, blogs, magazines, articles that tell you that
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if you do X things that you'll be happier, richer, more attractive, fitter, more awesome,
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I mean, whatever. And you follow this stuff, it's kind of motivating, but then you find that
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it sort of wears off. You fall off the bandwagon and you're back to where you started. And it's
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frustrating, right? Well, our guest today makes the argument that all this self-help advice,
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while well-intended, doesn't actually work in the long run. And what we need to do
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is edit or change the stories that we tell about ourselves to ourselves. Our guest is Timothy
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Wilson. He's a professor of psychology at the University of Virginia, and he's the author of
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the book, Redirect the Surprising New Science of Psychological Change. And in this podcast,
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we're going to discuss his research that he's found about what's called story editing, which is these
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stories that we have in our head about ourselves, about our circumstances, and that if we can edit
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these stories, change what they are, the parts of them, that we can fundamentally change our life
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trajectory, and we can become happier, healthier, et cetera, et cetera. And it's change that can be
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long lasting. So really fascinating discussion. In fact, his book, Redirect, inspired one of my most,
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one of my favorite posts that we wrote on the site, which is about the George Bailey effect.
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So we're going to talk about how George Bailey from It's a Wonderful Life can help you become
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a better, happier man. So great discussion here. Let's get on with the show.
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So your book, Redirect, a fascinating book. We're going to get really, we're going to delve deep into
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it. But you start off with describing what's called CSID, or critical incident stress debriefing.
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And this is where therapists are sent in to the location of a traumatic event,
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so they can talk to people about it immediately. So if there was a mass shooting, for example,
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or they would send in therapists to talk to the students right away. And at first blush,
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this sounds like a great idea. When I read about that, I was like, oh, that's a good idea.
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That should help people. But you present research that suggests otherwise. Can you talk about what
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the researchers have found on the effectiveness of CSID?
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Sure. Well, the reason I opened the book with that example is that to illustrate that as valuable
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as common sense can be, sometimes it doesn't lead to the best interventions. And it's the more
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non-obvious things that work. And you're right. CISD really, it makes sense that if you get people to
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purge their feelings, to instead of bottling them up, of talking about them, that that should be helpful.
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But, and in fact, as you mentioned, this technique has been used across the country with first
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responders and many people who have experienced trauma. Researchers didn't get around to really
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testing it vigorously until relatively recently. And unfortunately, it turns out not only not to work,
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but some people argue it can actually backfire, that by getting people to verbalize a traumatic
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event. It actually imprints it in our memories more. And we, we find it more difficult to get
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beyond an event. And in fact, you know, sometimes distraction can be a good thing. And if something
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horrible has happened to us to take our mind off it, go spend time with our family or loved ones,
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you know, absorb yourself in a book or a movie, but the more you dwell on it right away, the more
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you're going to remember it. Interesting. So what, so besides distraction, what have they found
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that's helpful to help individuals who've undergone a very traumatic event?
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Well, one thing researchers are finding is that people are amazingly resilient, that, that these things
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can be terrible to experience, but if we just let the natural healing process take place,
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let people kind of follow their instincts as to how much to think about it versus distract themselves,
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that they're going to get over it sooner, if not later. Now, if in many cases or some cases that,
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that doesn't work and a few weeks go by and people find that they can't get an event out of their minds.
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And that's where there are some writing exercises that psychologists have developed that turn out
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to be remarkably helpful. So just taking out a piece of paper before you go to bed at night and
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writing about your deepest thoughts and feelings about this, the thing that's troubling you,
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and doing that, say, three or four nights in a row is painful, but it can help people move beyond
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these events by getting them to restructure it and think about it in a way that gives it some meaning
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and allows them to, to move on. So why is it that, uh, writing as opposed to talking about it right away
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is more beneficial? I mean, what's the difference there? Well, I think a real key is the timing that,
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uh, these writing exercises are typically done after a few weeks, um, that have gone by so that
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people have had, um, time to, uh, their natural resilience processes have kicked in perhaps,
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and, um, the event isn't quite as, as vivid in their minds. Um, so there's less risk that,
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that this, that writing about it, um, or talking about it will imprint it in their memories.
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I think gaining some perspective, I mean, you know, I mean, think of the example of all of us
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have probably undergone a romantic breakup, uh, where someone has, has, uh, told us, look,
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uh, this isn't working. And, you know, is it best to sort of wow on your feelings right away and
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write about it, or, you know, maybe go spend time with your friends, let some time go by and,
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and then revisit it. And it's getting that perspective over time, which, which can really be helpful.
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Okay. So you start off with talking about the, the CSID as a way to introduce, uh, story editing.
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Uh, can you explain what story editing is? This is a, it's a relatively, I guess, not new idea in
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psychology or social psychology, but it's gaining more and more, um, I guess, attention. Uh, so what
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is story editing and how does it affect the way we think about the world and think about ourselves?
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Sure. Well, um, it's a metaphor that we all have stories that we tell ourselves about, um, who we
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are and what's happening to us in life. And it does, um, uh, capitalize on an age old phenomenon
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and philosophy that the world is not something objective that we look at like a movie. Rather,
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we are always interpreting and, and making sense of the world around us and weaving that into some
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sort of narrative about, uh, what's happening to us and who we are and so on. And often these stories
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or narratives are quite healthy and, and, uh, uh, help us, um, deal with traumatic events. Um, we have
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a lot of self-confidence, um, and strength, but sometimes these stories go wrong and, and people end up
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with pessimistic views of themselves or, uh, interpretations that, that lead to rumination and,
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and negative feelings. And, and so this, this metaphor of story editing is if we can somehow,
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uh, get inside people's heads and just get them to redirect that story into a healthier direction
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that can have big benefits down the road. Okay. So you, uh, highlight, uh, research that was done with,
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uh, college students on the power of story editing about their grades. Um, can you briefly describe
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that research? Sure. Well, this is kind of how I got interested many years ago in, in this whole area.
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And it's a study I did, uh, with college students, as you said, who were, uh, in their first year and
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struggling and, and not performing, um, as well as they, um, they thought they, they should be or could
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be. And if you think about that, um, there's lots of ways we might try to help such a student who
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is struggling. We could, um, maybe give them a study skills, uh, intervention, or maybe give them some
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medication to calm them down. Um, but we decided to intervene at this level of the story. And,
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and our hunch was that there's a kind of, uh, um, vicious cycle of thinking that people can get in
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where, uh, they're questioning whether they have what it takes to do well in college. And that leads
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to some worry and anxiety. And that makes it even harder to study and to actually do well. And so the
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story in this case is maybe I don't fit in here. Maybe I don't have what it takes,
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which leads to this vicious cycle of it spirals downward. So we did a really simple intervention
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where we brought students in. Uh, we didn't tell them that the goal was to, uh, help them. We just
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told them they were taking part in a survey. And as part of this survey, we gave them some information
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that challenged this view that they couldn't do it and tried to reinforce the view that lots of
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people struggle in the first year. And it's not a sign that they are failures. It's a sign that
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college is a time of adjustment and they need to try a little harder. We gave them some statistics
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showing that grades often improve after the first year and showed them some videotapes of older
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students who reinforced this message said, yeah, you know, it was tough my first semester, but,
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um, it got better over time. So, you know, pretty simple. This took about a half an hour and
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where they learned this message. And, um, we had a control group of students who were randomly
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assigned to not get this message. And then we followed the two groups, those who got the story
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editing, uh, intervention and those who didn't. And, um, I have to say even we were surprised
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that at the effects that this little half hour message seemed to redirect people's stories
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in ways that led to better grades over the next year. And they, in fact, were even more likely to
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stay in college. Our control group, um, a fairly significant portion of them dropped down, but in
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this intervention group, um, many fewer did. Interesting. So how can someone apply story
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editing to their own life? Cause there in the research, you, you know, unnoticed to them, they were
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getting this message that was kind of helping them redirect, uh, their stories about themselves. But
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what, are there some methods that people can use to implement story editing in their own life?
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Well, it's a really good question, Brett, cause I think, you know, sometimes it does take a third
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party to do this, that we can get caught in cycles of rumination where it's just hard to look at our
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own circumstances objectively. And sometimes it does take, um, you know, someone else to, to, uh,
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kind of nudge our story in a, in a better direction, but there are some things we can do. And,
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and, uh, that writing exercise I mentioned, uh, earlier where people can, um, just on their own
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decide to write about traumatic events. Um, there have been a number of those writing exercises that
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have been developed. One that, um, has gotten some recent attention is to write about some negative
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event from a third person perspective, um, as if you were a fly on the wall and to try to explain
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why this thing happened to you. So rather than re-immersing yourself in something negative,
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uh, say you had a problem at work where you had a fight with your boss or something,
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rather than kind of reliving those feelings, imagine that you're a fly on the wall looking
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at you and your boss interacting with a particular goal of trying to explain it better than you have
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before. And often, you know, it sounds simple, but that little writing exercise of becoming more
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objective. Often these people to revise their thinking about it, to attach new meaning and
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in ways that actually helps them move on. And you also mentioned, I guess, behave to feel like,
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I guess, cognitive dissonance, reverse cognitive dissonance, where if you want to feel like you're
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a run, like a runner person, like just start running. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a really important
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one too. And I refer to it as the do good, be good principle. And, you know, it's a real mantra
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of social psychology that if we want to change ourselves, often the first step is to change our
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behavior. So if we want to view ourselves as more caring, helpful people, then do some volunteer
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work. If a better family person, then, uh, do the dishes more in your house or, or, uh, spend more
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time with your kids. Because, you know, what happens is once our behavior changes, the story often
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follows after that. And it reinforces this new self identity of, yes, I am a helpful person because
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look what I'm doing. Interesting. So, um, what do you tell to the person who like, they listen to this,
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like they sound, Oh, this is great. I'm, I'm really pessimistic. I'm sort of a curmudgeon. I'm, um,
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not very resilient and I want to change my narrative about themselves. I want to change my narrative
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about myself. Uh, I mean, I can see this, there'd be points of frustration where, you know, you try
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doing the story editing, but change doesn't happen all the way and you get frustrated like, Oh, this
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doesn't work. And you, you begin that vicious cycle of thinking that I can't change my story. Um,
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is there, is there any hope for the curmudgeon that wants to change themselves with, with story
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editing? Yeah. Well, I, you know, I, I will put in a plug for, uh, psychotherapy, but I do think
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your problems really get out of hands that, you know, one way I think of psychotherapy as a bigger
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dose of story editing where you have someone else to help you with it. And, and, you know,
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there's a lot of good evidence that psychotherapy works for a lot of problems. So, so if your
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curmudgeon, you know, was really getting seriously depressed, for example, um, seek some help. But
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short of that, um, you know, I, I think there's, there's always some room to maneuver. I don't mean to
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suggest that these techniques will change us overnight from a curmudgeon to,
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uh, the most optimistic person in the world. Um, but through these writing exercises and,
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and changing our behavior piece by piece, um, I think over time it can help at least some.
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Okay. So you had a one section in your book that it actually inspired a blog post on our site,
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uh, about the George Bailey effect. Uh, and it's sort of, I guess, a technique that people can use to
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edit their story to be happier. Um, can you talk about the George Bailey effect and how people can
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implement it in their own life? Sure. Well, this was inspired by some research in the positive
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psychology movement, which suggests to people that they keep gratitude journals. Uh, so each night,
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maybe, um, spend a little time writing about things in your life that you're thankful for.
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And I've tried that myself and, you know, it's, it's, it's fine. Um, but I, I find that, um,
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yeah, we want, we've already thought a lot about those things and not that we've taken them for
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granted, but we, we, um, we've kind of accepted that these things are in our life and, um, just
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reminding us, I'm not sure always delivers that much of a bang. So we, in some research, tried a, uh,
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slightly different approach where instead of asking people what they were thankful for,
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we said, imagine something really good in your life, like your relationship, say with a spouse
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or partner, and imagine that it never happened. Um, really go into some detail about, uh, why you
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might not have ever met your partner or once you met him or her, you didn't start a relationship.
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And the George Bailey, uh, name comes from the movie. It's a wonderful life where many people know that,
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that Jimmy Stewart had this, uh, angel come and show him what life would have been like had he not
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lived. And in a way that's what people do in this writing exercise. They, they imagine what their life
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would be like if, uh, this good thing had not happened to them. And we found in, in some studies
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that that actually was better than gratitude journals at improving people's mood and making them
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appreciate things, um, that they have. Interesting. It sounds very similar to, um, some stoic philosophy
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of, you know, sort of subtracting the good and focusing on the negative to make you happier
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in a weird paradoxical way. Yeah, no, I think, uh, that's a good comparison.
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Okay. Um, so moving beyond to helping just ourselves, uh, redirect our stories. I know a lot of our
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listeners are parents, um, or dads, what can we do to help our children develop positive self
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narratives that make them resilient and effective in the world? Um, is there any research out there
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that's talks about what, what, what we can do to help internalize desired values, uh, in our kids?
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Sure. Well, you know, I do have a chapter in the books, uh, specifically on parenting. And I do think
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there are some lessons here that, you know, one way of describing what our job is as a parent is to help
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our kids develop good, healthy stories that where they make themselves as, uh, kids who are autonomous
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and, and, um, have a purpose and, and are effective. And, um, the danger with, with overdoing some
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parenting techniques is that we're too controlling and it prevents our kids from acquiring that, that
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identity as someone who is, is autonomous in themselves. So for example, um, I think all parents, I know I've
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certainly been there when my kids were younger. It's, it's, uh, we all use rewards and punishments of some
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form or another, like time out or something. And, um, sometimes we need to, our kids are doing something
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dangerous or, or misbehaving, but the real key is to do it with a light hand that if we're, if we go overboard,
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either with rewards or punishment, it conveys the view to our kids that they're doing something to
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satisfy us or to avoid punishment. And they don't internalize this idea that this is something they
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should value in and of themselves. So it's tricky, but, but the goal is to use the smallest amount of
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reward you can to induce your child to behave the way you want them to. And if you have to use
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punishment, um, rewards tend to work better than punishment, but if you have to, um, do it with a
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very light hand so that your child doesn't end up thinking, um, I'm doing this just to avoid the wrath
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of dad. Uh, and that helps a child internalize the values that you, you want them to. Excellent. And I
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imagine just displaying positive story editing in your own life would be a good, like it rubs off on them,
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right? If you react to a setback and just sort of remunerate about it, your kids will probably pick
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up on that. I imagine. They would. And it does remind me too, that, you know, kids are excellent
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observers of adults and, and, uh, and imitating and learning just from watching. And this suggests
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that we need to be really good role models for our kids, that if we want them to grow up to be
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helpful people, we need to exhibit helpfulness ourselves and, and so on that they, they, um, uh,
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you know, they can really, um, observe us very, very acutely. Okay. So one chapter that was really
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fascinating and I think it really showcases the power of story editing is in the way it can help
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underachieving, um, children in school, uh, close the achievement gap. Can you talk about the research
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that's been done with that on how just redirecting these students' stories about themselves, um, can
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help them excel in school? Sure. Well, there's some really exciting research going on in this area.
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And, you know, as everyone knows, there are problems that seem so hard to fix. They're,
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they're rooted in decades of, of poverty and so on. And, and, and, uh, has been reduced a little
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bit, um, over the past few decades, but it still persists at, uh, alarming rates where minority
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kids are not doing as well in school. And so some social psychologists, um, got the idea to,
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well, maybe this is a story problem in a sense that the kids, minority kids, um, they're in school
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and they work, but they quickly learn that this is a place where their identity is at risk, that
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there's a stereotype that they're not going to do as well. And that puts pressure on them. If they're
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taking a test, not only do they have to worry about doing well for their own sake, they have to worry
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about confirming a stereotype that they're not going to do well. And this can be debilitating.
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So some researchers went into, um, a middle school and they randomly assigned some kids,
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um, black and whites, to do a writing exercise where they just, um, picked a value other than
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academics that was really important to them and write about why it was important. So kids, um,
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they had a list they could choose from and they were things like their family, their religion,
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uh, a sport, a hobby. And so the kids, um, did this. And as it turns out, this little, what's called a
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self-affirmation exercise had no effect on the white kids because presumably they were already felt their
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identity was safe in school. But for the black kids, um, it helped them reduce the threat by reminding
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them that they were valuable kids who, who had, um, uh, relationships and hobbies and things that
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they valued. It kind of lowered the heat a little bit about their identity at school. And ironically,
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that made them actually do better, that there was less concern that all their eggs were in this one
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basket in a sense. And the kids who got this, this little writing intervention, um, it, it basically
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closed the achievement gap by 40% in this one school. Fascinating. I think there was similar
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research done on that. Just the, the power of stereotype in a child's life is where even if
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the, if you don't have the child identify their race or gender, they actually perform better.
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Yes. Yes. That's fascinating that, that just having a kid check the box, even college students
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can just remind them of that what's called stereotype threat and, uh, and make them do worse.
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Yeah. Okay. So, um, what can, I always try to end these podcasts with, uh, just some like one thing
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that people like some actionable things that people can do. And I know sort story editing is
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sort of a lifelong thing you need to implement, but what's one thing that a person could start
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doing today to implement story editing and redirect how they think about themselves today?
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Well, I guess what I say, Brad, is just remind ourselves that change is possible, that, that we're
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not fixed beings that, that, um, uh, are stuck in one way that we have to be stuck in forever.
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That just by adopting this metaphor of the story, um, I think it empowers us to, uh, to change it.
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And, um, I'm not suggesting it's easy and that every problem will magically disappear, but I think
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just, um, beginning to view whatever's troubling us as well, it's a story. And, you know, at one extreme,
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if I really need help, I can get psychotherapy, but short of that, there's a lot of little things
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I can do of changing my behavior or these writing exercises that can send me on the road to, uh,
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a better story. Excellent. So where can people go to find out more about your work? And you're also
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a musician, but I gathered from your website. Yes and no. I, uh, I do on my website have, uh, links to
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some other people with the name Tim Wilson. Oh, is that what that is? Okay. I, uh, both of whom
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are musicians. Now I do play the guitar, but not in any way that people in public would want to hear
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me. Let me put it that way. But, uh, no, I amuse myself. I sometimes get calls for the other Tim
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Wilson and say, Hey, can you show up at this bar and play? And, uh, maybe sometime I'll do it,
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but we'll see. Oh, but, but to answer your question, um, I do have this book redirect,
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which is coming out in paperback in the next couple of months, but is available now on in,
00:24:38.380
in hardback. And, uh, there's a Facebook page for it where I post things occasionally that are in the
00:24:44.260
news that people can like as well. Fantastic. Well, Tim Wilson, thank you so much for your time.
00:24:49.300
It's been a pleasure. It's been a lot of fun for me too. Thanks, Brad. Thank you. Our guest today
00:24:53.220
was Timothy Wilson. He is the author of the book redirect the surprising new science of psychological
00:24:57.920
change. And you can find that on amazon.com. Well, that wraps up another edition of the art
00:25:04.700
of manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice. Make sure to check out the art of manliness
00:25:08.640
website at art of manliness.com. And if you haven't already, please check out store.artofmanliness.com
00:25:14.180
for our, all of our art of manliness wares and swag. Got some AOMTs, a really cool vintage camp coffee
00:25:21.260
mug, got a tie bar, lapel pins, an if poster or a man in the arena poster that has features,
00:25:27.420
has Teddy Roosevelt on it. Your purchases there will help support the art of manliness. And I'd
00:25:32.120
really appreciate that. So thank you. If you do, you don't have to, you're a grown man,
00:25:35.920
do whatever you want. So until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.