The Art of Manliness - December 13, 2014


#93： Total Human Optimization with Aubrey Marcus

Topics
nootropics and unconventional workouts total human optimization kettlebells and Indian clubs aubreymarcus.com
Hosted by
Brett McKay
Mentioned
Aubrey Marcus Huachuma Chavin Jules Verne Joe Rogan Gattaca Bodie Miller Larry David Tim Kennedy Janet Zand Steve Jobs Don Howard Aztecs Gata Vern Brad
#92： How to Network Without Networking With John Corcoran #94： A Higher Call With Adam Makos

Episode Stats


Length

35 minutes

Words per minute

196.25

Word count

6,881

Sentence count

424

Harmful content

Toxicity

3

sentences flagged

Hate speech

1

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

When you hear the word Total Human Optimization , what does that conjure up in your head? Well, our guest today has made it his mission in life to help people optimize themselves to the utmost. His name is Aubrey Marcus, and he s the founder and CEO of Onnit, a health and fitness company that s hard to describe. We ll let him describe it for you all.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:00:19.540 When you hear the word total human optimization, what does that conjure up in your head?
00:00:24.760 Well, our guest today has made it his mission in life to help people optimize themselves to the utmost.
00:00:31.640 His name is Aubrey Marcus. He's the founder and CEO of Onnit.
00:00:35.160 It's a health and fitness company that's hard to describe.
00:00:37.980 We'll let him describe it for you all.
00:00:40.560 But Onnit's focused on helping people become the best they can through sort of unconventional means,
00:00:46.900 using unconventional exercises like Indian clubs and gata maces,
00:00:51.400 and using supplements like nootropics to help you improve your cognition.
00:00:55.560 It's something we've written about on the site before.
00:00:57.960 So in this podcast today, we're going to talk about nootropics and how supplements can help our brain function better.
00:01:03.980 We're going to talk about why unconventional exercises should be a part of your workout routine.
00:01:10.100 I'm a big fan of the barbell. I love the barbell, dud lift, bench press, squat, my favorite.
00:01:14.540 But I like to incorporate other stuff like Indian clubs and kettlebells and the warrior mace.
00:01:19.020 Then we'll also talk a bit about what Aubrey has learned from mixed martial artists.
00:01:23.360 For some reason or other, Onnit has attracted MMA fighters.
00:01:27.000 And we're going to find out what Aubrey has learned about what it means to be a man
00:01:30.860 and what masculinity means by rubbing shoulders with these really fierce fighters.
00:01:35.720 And I think the answer will surprise you.
00:01:37.580 So a really fascinating hodgepodge discussion.
00:01:40.760 So stay tuned.
00:01:44.760 Aubrey Marcus, welcome to the show.
00:01:46.600 Thanks, Brett. It's a pleasure to be on here.
00:01:48.300 All right. So you are the founder and CEO of a fitness company and health company called Onnit.
00:01:54.460 For our listeners who aren't familiar with the company, because I've tried to describe what Onnit is
00:02:00.300 because it's not like any other health and fitness company out there, really.
00:02:03.660 And it's hard for me to describe. So how do you guys describe yourself?
00:02:07.360 Yeah, you really have to talk about the idea.
00:02:09.420 And the idea is about taking healthy people and improving their performance.
00:02:14.740 And we call that total human optimization.
00:02:17.400 And it's really hard to do that by focusing on one aspect alone.
00:02:20.620 You know, so while nutritional supplements with, you know, earth-grown nutrients are a core part of what we do,
00:02:27.120 you know, that's not going to cut it as well.
00:02:28.540 We need to talk about other nutrition principles and functional foods.
00:02:31.840 And then even that alone isn't the complete picture.
00:02:36.340 Also, how you're working out, your fitness, your training, your unconventional methodologies that you use that, you know,
00:02:43.860 you've put up on some of the site as well with the Indian clubs and the maces and things of that nature.
00:02:49.380 All of that contributes to this holistic picture of what it is to live an optimized life.
00:02:54.020 And so that's what I think makes Onnit somewhat unique in that we don't just focus entirely on one thing.
00:03:00.420 We kind of treat the human as a whole and say, look, if you want to be optimized,
00:03:04.500 you've got to spend some time training and working out, working out in ways that suit the body that we've been given
00:03:10.140 and, you know, filling it with proper nutrition and then taking supplements that can optimize your performance.
00:03:16.380 Awesome. When did you guys start out?
00:03:18.900 It wasn't too long ago, right?
00:03:19.940 Yeah, really, I kind of marked the founding in July of 2011 when we came out with AlphaBrain.
00:03:27.020 We were working on some other stuff a little bit prior to that, but Onnit became what it is now then.
00:03:32.520 There was kind of a pivot and some repositioning.
00:03:35.200 Yeah, I mean, because it's crazy because, yeah, I first heard about you guys because of AlphaBrain a few years ago.
00:03:40.020 And since then, you guys are everywhere.
00:03:42.980 I mean, it seems like you guys are overnight success, right?
00:03:44.980 But we all know that, you know, there's no such thing as an overnight success.
00:03:49.940 So, I mean, can you give us the backstory of how you came up with this idea of total human optimization
00:03:54.180 and starting a fitness company that supports that?
00:03:59.760 Yeah, really, it was just a product of my own life.
00:04:02.920 You know, my stepmother was Dr. Janet Zand, and she founded a company called Zand Herbal.
00:04:07.260 And so when I was growing up, I'd play basketball games and I'd have a stack of supplements on a little paper towel.
00:04:11.900 And I would just take it, I didn't know what it was, and I would take it before the game and I would play better than I would in practice, you know.
00:04:17.880 And then I would have another stack of supplements on important test days.
00:04:21.420 And I would take that before a test and I would feel more focused and feel sharper.
00:04:26.040 So I got used to the paradigm of what I ingested affecting my performance.
00:04:30.420 And I kind of kept that with me my whole life and then started working on the other aspects that was necessary to run a business like this, you know, self-mastery, you know, leadership principles.
00:04:41.780 I started a marketing company, worked with that, learned kind of the e-commerce game, started to get more familiar with different people who could support the brand,
00:04:50.940 like my friend Bodie Miller, who was one of the founding investors with me.
00:04:54.200 And then, of course, Joe Rogan, who's become, you know, an incredibly valuable partner in the business.
00:05:00.360 So kind of everything came together.
00:05:02.260 The last piece was really getting a strong medical advisory team and scientific team that's been running our clinical trials.
00:05:10.900 We were actually able last week to just announce the results of our flagship randomized double-blind AlphaBrain trial,
00:05:19.080 which is really some pretty groundbreaking stuff, proving that AlphaBrain statistically significantly affects cognition in a variety of positive ways.
00:05:29.800 Yeah, let's talk about AlphaBrain because that's how I first heard about you guys is through AlphaBrain.
00:05:34.440 So AlphaBrain is a nootropic, right? Is that how you describe it?
00:05:38.200 Yep.
00:05:38.980 For our listeners who aren't familiar with nootropics, could you explain what they are and their benefits?
00:05:45.000 Because, I mean, it sounds sort of like woo-woo, right?
00:05:46.660 You're like, oh, you're taking this pill and it can make you smarter.
00:05:48.520 That's like sci-fi stuff.
00:05:50.480 But you're saying that you have studies that say, no, there's actually something to it.
00:05:54.760 Yeah, I mean, and that was, of course, the challenge that we, you know, we had to overcome with these clinical trials is we came out with the product.
00:06:01.500 And all of the ingredients in the product have good scientific data.
00:06:04.500 But until you actually prove that your formula against a double-blind randomized trial is going to work, you know,
00:06:11.920 people are always going to be a little bit skeptical.
00:06:13.640 But basically, the field of nootropics is anything that enhances cognitive performance.
00:06:20.080 And a lot of times people think of the brain as synonymous with the mind.
00:06:23.240 Oh, it's just a strong mind, strong brain.
00:06:25.160 Well, the brain is actually an organ.
00:06:26.400 And as with the muscles or skin or the liver, that organ has input that it uses to create the output.
00:06:34.640 Now, the output happens to be thoughts and cognition and personality and a lot of other things that come from what the brain does,
00:06:41.520 which is different than a muscle, which flexes and contracts.
00:06:44.180 So it's easier to think of it like that.
00:06:45.520 But regardless, the brain uses fuel and it actually uses a lot of fuel to do what it does.
00:06:52.360 And so the field of nootropics is, at least as far as we're concerned, is providing the brain with the nutrients that it needs to perform optimally.
00:07:01.460 And some of the main fuel sources for the brain are the neurotransmitter precursors.
00:07:05.640 And so the one that we focused on the most was the neurotransmitter acetylcholine.
00:07:10.820 And that's what we targeted because that's what's responsible for mental clarity, focus, mental speed.
00:07:17.240 And that's where we saw some of the greatest gains in the formula.
00:07:19.920 But I also wanted to make it well-rounded.
00:07:21.600 So we have some ingredients in there that support the dopamine mechanism, the GABA mechanism, and a variety of the other brain neurotransmitter functions.
00:07:32.080 And then we also have another formula that supports the serotonin mechanism.
00:07:35.640 As well as some other things, vinpozitine brings additional blood flow into the brain, cerebral vasodilation.
00:07:42.140 And another ingredient is like a really strong antioxidant that we licensed that comes from an extract of cat's claw, which grows in the Amazon rainforest.
00:07:50.440 And just kind of putting together the dream formula of what the brain could use to perform at its best.
00:07:57.940 And then, you know, we had great results in the public and then put that to the test with the Boston Center for Memory, a really prestigious institute.
00:08:05.640 And, you know, showed that a variety of things were improved, verbal memory, executive function.
00:08:11.420 We even hooked them up to your acute EEG.
00:08:13.420 And the people taking alpha brain versus placebo, they had a higher peak alpha brain wave, which is synonymous with ability to kind of be in the zone or be in a flow state.
00:08:22.320 And also improved the theta beta ratio, which is what people track for attention and focus issues.
00:08:30.040 So a variety of different benefits.
00:08:32.360 Button press accuracy when they're hearing high and low tones.
00:08:35.160 So responsiveness to auditory cues.
00:08:38.740 A variety of different things that alpha brain has shown to be effective in.
00:08:41.920 And so hopefully taking it out of the realm of woo-woo and into the realm of hard empirical science.
00:08:47.340 Yeah.
00:08:47.840 And I think part of the problem I think people have with nootropics is that sometimes people market it as this thing.
00:08:54.140 It's like it's a cure-all.
00:08:55.280 Like you take this pill and like you're instantly going to be superhuman.
00:08:59.200 But it's just it's a supplement, right?
00:09:00.760 Like you got to do other stuff in addition.
00:09:03.060 Of course.
00:09:03.560 Yeah.
00:09:03.740 Yeah, I mean, this is focusing on taking a healthy brain and making it, you know, a little bit supercharged.
00:09:11.720 You know, I mean, we're not working miracles here.
00:09:13.300 But in the world, you know, having a couple percent edge is really generally the difference.
00:09:19.400 You know, a lot of times the tipping point is not 30 percent away.
00:09:23.580 The tipping point is 3 percent away.
00:09:25.560 You know, am I going to start writing this book or not?
00:09:28.360 Well, you know, it's usually pretty close to a 50-50 ball if you're interested in it.
00:09:33.420 And having that energy, having that focus, you know, maybe even a 5 percent increase, a 10 percent increase is more than enough to actually get the ball rolling and get you to do that.
00:09:42.480 And the same with performance in any variety of thing.
00:09:45.480 So, you know, this is not a miracle drug.
00:09:47.280 This is not like limitless.
00:09:48.740 Yeah.
00:09:48.900 But it will help performance.
00:09:51.660 And anything that's close to that tipping point, you know, you're going to get a major benefit from something that's, you know, helping in a marginal way.
00:09:59.380 And just to clarify, this isn't like a prescription drug.
00:10:01.640 This is like natural supplements, right, that you could buy at Whole Foods.
00:10:05.400 Yeah.
00:10:05.700 All of these things come from earth-grown nutrient sources.
00:10:08.280 And that's something I believe both in my professional and personal life.
00:10:11.240 You know, we as humans evolved alongside our environment to cohabitate and support each other in that manner.
00:10:18.960 So it only makes sense that the best stuff that we could put in our body would be stuff that we've evolved alongside.
00:10:24.180 It doesn't really make sense that, you know, some random synthetic mix of chemicals is going to long-term be the best solution.
00:10:33.240 You know, in certain circumstances, you know, if I have a bad infection, I'm going to take some antibiotics.
00:10:37.820 And I appreciate the hell out of that.
00:10:39.100 You know, but most of the time when you're talking about nutrient sources, staying as close to nature as possible is going to yield the most benefit with the least risk of, you know, adverse effect.
00:10:50.380 Yeah.
00:10:50.760 I've had some positive benefits from nootropics.
00:10:53.740 Like I have my own little stack for serotonin because I did 23andMe, right, had my genetic thing sequenced.
00:11:00.780 And I found out that I have the gene that causes my body to, like, use serotonin really fast.
00:11:07.220 So it never gets to my brain, right, or I get very little.
00:11:10.380 So it makes me, like, prone to anxiousness.
00:11:12.420 Like I have, like, the Larry David gene, basically.
00:11:15.220 I'm, like, neurotic.
00:11:16.160 And so, yeah, I take this stack that helps, supposed to increase serotonin but also slow down the rate at which it deteriorates.
00:11:24.780 I don't know what's the word you use, but, like, your body uses it.
00:11:27.820 And it's helped me out.
00:11:28.660 I'm just, I mean, it's not like I'm, like, super calm or whatever.
00:11:32.260 I have to do other stuff like meditation and, like, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy stuff.
00:11:37.260 But it's, like, it's helped me out.
00:11:38.240 I'm a little more even-keeled because of that.
00:11:40.520 So what do you got, like, 5-HTP, Alzheimer's, and rhodiola?
00:11:46.060 Yeah, rhodiola is a great adaptogenic herb.
00:11:48.600 It helps with stress.
00:11:50.220 That class of adaptogenic herbs is something that, you know, really everybody should take because it's one of those things that has an ability to help you, you know, help you marginally a little bit in a variety of different ways.
00:12:02.540 It kind of finds the stress points and supplies some lubrication of those stress points, you know, to a certain degree.
00:12:09.200 Yeah, that's a great herb.
00:12:10.120 Yeah, and then the other one, I'd take GABA, part of that.
00:12:14.380 So it helps out.
00:12:15.520 I mean, again, it's not like a cure-all, but it's, you know, if anything can give me an edge, I'll take it.
00:12:21.680 Yeah.
00:12:22.140 With the GABA, you know, and for people listening, GABA is a great neurotransmitter.
00:12:28.160 There's some issues with taking nutritional supplement GABA in its regular form.
00:12:33.880 There's some controversy over whether it crosses the blood-brain barrier.
00:12:36.680 So keep an eye out for that, and there may be some, you know, better ways that you can influence the GABA mechanism.
00:12:44.000 L-theanine is really closely related to the GABA mechanism, and that's a natural amino acid that's found in green tea and some other things as well.
00:12:51.640 And a lot of people will find that taking L-theanine improves that, you know, what they're targeting for the GABA more than actually taking GABA itself, which can get destroyed before it gets to the blood-brain barrier.
00:13:04.080 Interesting.
00:13:04.480 That's good to know.
00:13:05.040 Okay, so kind of related to nootropics, you have a documentary that I just saw on your website.
00:13:12.660 Yep.
00:13:13.580 Huachuma?
00:13:14.680 Huachuma.
00:13:15.320 Huachuma.
00:13:16.000 Huachuma.
00:13:16.740 Huachuma.
00:13:17.520 Huachuma.
00:13:18.480 What's that about?
00:13:19.540 I mean, because I got, you know, I kind of had the general gist, but for our readers who aren't familiar, what's that documentary about?
00:13:25.040 Well, that documentary is about, it's about a practice that started several thousand years ago, and there was a period in pre-Andean civilization, before the Incas, before, you know, the Mayans, before the Aztecs, before any of that, there was a civilization that thrived, and the center of that was in a place called Chavin.
00:13:44.360 And for 800 years, there's no evidence of war and conquer in the area, and so it's something of an anomaly in archaeological records.
00:13:55.000 And one of the reasons that that's credited is that the center of Chavin was a place of pilgrimage where people would receive a sacrament of a plant medicine that comes from the San Pedro cactus that, interestingly enough, since we're talking about serotonin,
00:14:10.480 acts on the serotonin mechanism to create a very kind of bonding, heart-opening, mind-expanding experience that they would provide for everybody in the area.
00:14:26.180 And so Huachuma is only practiced by one or two more practitioners in the same old way, which is using the Masada, which is kind of like the structure of the ceremony.
00:14:38.960 And then brewing the cactus in that particular way, the San Pedro cactus, to create that medicine.
00:14:45.300 And the documentary is about, you know, my experience going down to the jungle to partake in that ancient ritual,
00:14:52.260 and as well as, you know, how that might look if, you know, we were to revive some of those principles of Chavin,
00:15:00.860 and that idea of para el bien de todos, you know, for the good of all.
00:15:04.300 And working on ourself individually first to make sure that we're fit for service to work on the collective.
00:15:12.580 So what was your experience?
00:15:13.760 I mean, sure, you talk about this in the documentary, but kind of general, I mean, what was your experience like taking it?
00:15:17.240 Because I've heard people like, I guess, you know, experimenting with psychedelics, people have had these like, yeah,
00:15:21.780 like these mind-changing or these life-changing experiences where they just become like Steve Jobs attributes like psychedelics to helping them do awesome things with Apple.
00:15:30.800 There's some other people too.
00:15:31.540 So what was it like for you?
00:15:33.400 Yeah, you know, this was not my first step in the journey.
00:15:36.660 You know, I've been, I was working with the shaman in the mountains of Mexico at 19, and that was kind of a rite of passage for me.
00:15:42.760 And I would certainly not be sitting here right now if it wasn't for the assistance that these traditional plant medicines have given me from psilocybin to ayahuasca and also huachuma.
00:15:53.820 For me, huachuma was really unlike anything else that I've experienced.
00:15:57.680 First of all, the practitioner down there, Don Howard, it's really like you get a chance to sit with Gandalf, the white wizard.
00:16:04.600 Like, I have no other way to compare it, but it's really amazing to be at someone who's practicing at the height of skill that he's able to practice.
00:16:12.960 And then the medicine itself had a lot of lessons that really would be difficult to get elsewhere.
00:16:19.700 It's one of those things that kind of, it presents you with challenges that you have to overcome that are really practical for, you know, real world applications.
00:16:29.360 So you take it and you end up going, walking through the jungle and everything in life becomes kind of magnified.
00:16:37.560 And so you're able to look at every little fear you have, every anxiety you have, every issue that you have and have an opportunity to work through those in a microcosm during this experience that is really applicable to, you know, life afterwards.
00:16:52.020 As well as kind of the eye-opening, kind of mind-expanding properties that these things have, allowing you to see things in a different perspective, see the earth in a different perspective, you know, kind of hear that voice of the unheard, you know, of the planet itself, of, you know, the people who you really end up after one of these experiences generally wanting to be more of service to.
00:17:18.220 Interesting. Interesting. Okay. So we've talked about the mind optimization stuff a bit. Let's talk about the fitness part.
00:17:26.320 So instead, I mean, what I've, what I like about Onnit is that you guys focus on, I guess, what you call unconventional fitness, unconventional exercises.
00:17:35.140 So we're talking like kettlebells, we're talking Indian clubs, which we've done a video on.
00:17:41.340 I'm, if you have, if you guys want to see me shirtless and in like tights doing kettlebells or Indian clubs, you can check it out on YouTube.
00:17:50.440 Uh, the Indian mace, uh, which is pretty cool. I have one of those.
00:17:54.860 Um, so why, why focus on those sort of, you know, cause like some of the stuff, like it's not new stuff.
00:18:00.340 I mean, people are using this stuff for thousands of years, right? Indian clubs, the, uh, Gata, the mace been around for thousands of years.
00:18:07.580 And it was actually some of the stuff was really popular in the West, like a hundred years ago, but then it died away.
00:18:12.480 Uh, why focus on that stuff?
00:18:15.180 Well, we really wanted to kind of look at in the same way with nutrition, you know, what did we evolve alongside to do?
00:18:21.000 You know, did we, did our bodies evolve to lift barbells from a bench press position?
00:18:27.060 You know, like how often did that happen?
00:18:28.980 You know, probably never.
00:18:30.340 And it doesn't really happen that often in real life either.
00:18:33.160 So some of the ways that we train are really kind of counterintuitive to what the body is designed to do.
00:18:39.440 And the implements that we chose, we chose because they work well with the systems and the hinges and the levers and pulleys and everything that is actually naturally going on with the body itself.
00:18:48.820 And, uh, and really can help strengthen and condition the body in a way that, that supports it.
00:18:54.160 So, you know, kettlebells are, are something that's grown wildly in popularity recently and, and for good reason.
00:19:00.680 I mean, really, if you put together a strong kettlebell routine that can really replace almost everything else that you, that you have out there.
00:19:08.240 Uh, but there's some other specialties that some of these other implements have.
00:19:11.100 And like you mentioned, you know, the Persian Palwani wrestlers from the 1200s, you know, kind of pioneered some of these methods, uh, preparing themselves for competition, preparing themselves for battle.
00:19:21.560 And, um, really can help work out things like the shoulder girdle and some of your core strength in really unique ways.
00:19:28.360 That just feels great for the body, helps prevent injury, and, um, it's going to allow you to continue training, you know, well into your sixties, seventies.
00:19:36.460 I mean, you see some of these guys swinging a mace or, you know, 68, the big old beard and been doing this for years, you know, some of the OGs of it.
00:19:44.820 And, uh, you know, it's really impressive that they've been able to continue to do that.
00:19:48.720 Whereas you see a lot of people who've done, you know, conventional lifting, like power lifting, heavy squats and deadlifts and, and, and those all have their place as well.
00:19:57.820 I'm not saying not to do those in bench press, but, you know, generally the body will break down over time doing those lifts because the body wasn't designed for that kind of force.
00:20:06.740 Yeah. Speaking of old guys still doing this stuff. So there's, um, we have an art of manliness reader readers, uh, also a Greek Orthodox priest and, uh, he's got this, this, this giant gray beard and he sent me this picture of him just holding the most, the biggest kettlebell I've ever seen. 0.99
00:20:23.260 I'm going to, I'll put, I'll post a link or an image of it, but it's the, it's the coolest picture. I mean, he's like in his like Orthodox priest garb and just rocking it out with his giant Orthodox priest forearms, uh, with the kettlebell. It was pretty impressive.
00:20:36.740 But yeah, I think he was like in his sixties and he's still rocking it. Yeah. And it seems like, so a lot of this unconventional stuff too is used, um, because you focused on that, uh, you have, it seems you've attracted a lot of MMA fighters. Um, why is that something that just sort of naturally happened? It was, did you have a background in MMA or was that something you, you reached out to fighters or what, what, what's the connection there?
00:21:00.940 Well, I've, I've always been a huge fan of the sport. I've trained martial arts most of my life and I've, I've actually been watching the UFC since the very first one. And, uh, so I've had some affinity towards it. I had some friends who were fighters, but really a lot of that comes from our partnership with Joe Rogan, uh, obviously the UFC commentator. So, and also a jujitsu black belt and, um, you know, a high level kickboxer when he was younger. So his connection is really, you know, facilitated a lot of that. And then, you know, we've kind
00:21:30.940 of work with the fighters to make sure that our program really suits, you know, some of the activities that they're doing as well, because they have to put themselves to the ultimate test. You know, I mean, all of us, we like to be fit and we like to be in shape, but the difference of whether we're in shape or not, isn't some giant trained killer trying to pound our head in if we're slipping on our game a little bit, you know, we got a lot more slack than they do. So, you know, utilizing what they would do to get themselves in top condition, um, and then applying that so that we can kind of mimic
00:22:00.740 some of those patterns and movements. And, um, it's something that we've really adopted as well.
00:22:06.940 Yeah. Um, so you've had the opportunity to look, um, to rub shoulders with some really some of the top fighters in the world. I mean, these are guys who, yeah, like you said, they can just like pummel people to death if they wanted. Um, what have you learned from them about masculinity and being a man?
00:22:25.220 That's a great question. The best fighters I know, and some of the toughest individuals in the world,
00:22:30.740 like take Tim Kennedy, for example, he's a cool guy. I got to meet him a few weeks ago.
00:22:34.620 He's awesome. And, uh, and so he's, you know, he was number three ranked middleweight UFC fighter.
00:22:40.020 So one of the top fighters in his weight class in the world. And before that, in his professional life,
00:22:45.180 he was one of the top Navy, I mean, army ranger snipers in the world. So one of the top special forces
00:22:52.140 snipers and one of the top UFC fighters. And if you meet him, he's the sweetest, like nicest,
00:22:59.980 humble guy you'll ever meet. And time and time again, the best fighters and the champions
00:23:06.660 are going to be, you know, the kind of the least abrasive individuals you'll ever meet because
00:23:14.440 they have nothing to prove, you know? And so I think true manliness and true strength is,
00:23:20.180 is not having something to prove, not having a chip on your shoulder and having to say,
00:23:24.360 hey, everybody, look how manly I am. It's knowing it like deep in your heart. Like I know what I am,
00:23:29.860 you know, I don't need to, I don't need to show this to everybody because I'm completely secure
00:23:34.080 and confident with what it is to be a man and what my, what my strengths are in that regard.
00:23:39.920 Yeah. That's something that I've noticed over the years. So I've had the opportunity to like
00:23:42.660 rub shoulders with, you know, you MMA fighters, uh, special forces guys, guys who own, um, I guess,
00:23:49.400 security businesses, like they, they protect, you know, VIPs, like they, they shoot bad guys for a
00:23:54.680 living. Right. Like, but like, they are like the kind, like you would never know. Right. Like,
00:24:00.060 I mean, you would know, cause like they're super jacked. They're huge. Like you wouldn't want to
00:24:03.680 mess with them, like from like a physical, but like just interacting with them, like, they're just
00:24:08.500 like, they're not a-holes. Like they're just the kindest people I've ever met. Friendly. Um, and it's
00:24:13.760 just sort of weird. Cause I think there's this idea out there that, you know, to be manly,
00:24:17.860 you gotta be sort of a jerk and like, you know, right. And come, you know, embody the dark triad 0.99
00:24:23.000 of personality traits, be a narcissist and, uh, sort of psychopathic, but it's not, I mean,
00:24:28.200 my experience, like the, like these alpha male type guys, like they're not like that.
00:24:31.680 No, they're, they're, they're somewhat of the opposite. I mean, I think anything that you're
00:24:35.280 trying to aggressively show outwardly is an indication of an inward weakness, you know?
00:24:40.260 So the more that you're trying to project something, um, you know, the less probably confident
00:24:45.520 you feel about that inside as, as a generality. And there may be some exceptions to that and
00:24:50.300 opportunities to kind of do something, you know, to, to show some other side, but that's,
00:24:56.420 that's more of the general rule. And it reminds me a little bit of, you know, I had, I had a
00:25:00.240 great tattoo artist and he was explaining, he was like, I never tattoo a dragon with his
00:25:06.720 mouth open snarling. And he's like, you know why? He's like, cause why the fuck would a dragon
00:25:11.600 snarl? You know, like who is it trying to scare? It's a dragon. It's a being of imminent 0.98
00:25:16.840 power. You know, it has no reason to be growling at anybody or anything, you know? And that's,
00:25:23.880 I think kind of what these body, these fighters embody, they don't need to put out that snarl
00:25:28.040 because they have it, they got the goods, you know? So, yeah. Have you, uh, have you taken
00:25:34.400 up fighting? Like, have you gotten in the ring a couple of times since the beginning of Onnit?
00:25:38.360 Yeah. You know, I've, as I said, I've been a martial artist a lot of my life and, uh, I was
00:25:45.160 always more of a lantern than a laser. You know, I never really focused on anything enough to be
00:25:49.840 truly, truly great. I mean, basketball was the closest I came to that. Um, but then, you know,
00:25:56.120 I started ramping up fighting a bit, maybe five or six years ago, a little bit before Onnit actually,
00:26:03.020 and was preparing to take a fight in the ring and, uh, training with some really tough guys and,
00:26:09.620 um, ended up getting in my first like street fight, um, in the middle of training. Like,
00:26:14.660 so I was at like the peak of my condition and, and I'm, I'm not one who likes to fight and I'll
00:26:19.620 try to avoid it under almost all circumstances. Um, but this time, you know, four guys came up to me
00:26:26.140 and one threw my girlfriend face first into my car window. And so I had no choice, you know,
00:26:31.380 it was there, there was, and, uh, ended up, you know, doing all right in the fight, but got a
00:26:36.760 concussion. And, and that kind of like, after that, you know, I, I basically been training for a moment,
00:26:43.140 an artificial moment in the ring where I could see what was inside myself and see how I would react.
00:26:48.140 And then it kind of manifested in real life. And after that, it's somewhat just kind of scratched
00:26:53.580 the itch and diminished my, my need to, to kind of show that side in, uh, in the ring. Uh, but that
00:26:59.900 was a really kind of interesting moment. Plus the concussion meant I had to stop training for a while,
00:27:03.420 but, um, yeah, it was really interesting how that happened, how, you know, my whole life I've still
00:27:08.140 only gotten in one major street fight and it happened, just happened to happen when I was at the
00:27:12.800 peak of my training, um, with a pretty significant challenge and there was multiple attackers.
00:27:17.580 That's crazy. That's crazy. Um, so this idea of total human optimization, um, you know, I've had
00:27:25.200 with the podcast, I've had the opportunity to talk to some people who are like doing this, right. Um,
00:27:28.940 I talked to, uh, the guy who wrote, um, I forgot his name, man. I feel like an idiot. He wrote about 0.99
00:27:35.880 flow. It's about becoming superhuman. Um, so I know, I know, I know what you're talking about. I can't
00:27:41.700 remember his name. Yeah. Well, I'll have it in the show. It was a good podcast. Anyways. I mean,
00:27:45.040 there's like, there's like, it's interesting that we're in this point where we're trying to figure
00:27:48.340 out ways to optimize ourselves mentally, physically, but one thing, and I'm into it too.
00:27:53.320 Like I, you know, I, I've messed with like biohacking, right. And like, um, biofeedback is
00:27:58.980 what it is. Right. So you like the thing you put on your head and like measure brain waves or whatever.
00:28:02.280 And, um, but I mean, this stuff, I mean, it's somewhat expensive right now. Right. And so the big
00:28:09.000 concern, whenever I do this stuff, I'm like, this is cool. It's helping me out. But what I'm concerned
00:28:12.000 about is like, is this going to create some sort of like, you know, you remember like in the, um,
00:28:17.920 that, uh, sci-fi novel where there's like the, when the guy goes to the future, um, and there's
00:28:23.900 like, uh, two classes of humans, there's like, there's like super like awesome humans. And then
00:28:28.440 there's like, not Gattaca, but I mean, that happens in Gattaca, but there's also, um, that really old
00:28:34.360 one. It's like, uh, the time traveler. What's the man. We're going to have to like do some like
00:28:39.940 editing after this word of like, so it sounds, so we sound like we know what we're talking about.
00:28:43.700 Um, it's the guy who wrote 10,000 leagues under the sea. What was his name?
00:28:49.120 Jules, you know, Vern, Jules Verne. He wrote a thing about the time traveler. Right. And like,
00:28:53.980 he goes to the future and like, there's like basically like two group sub, you know, species
00:28:57.620 of humans at this point. There's like, um, like affluent superhuman types. And then there's
00:29:02.620 like these poor, you know, not so great looking humans. Um, and so like, whenever I do this stuff,
00:29:08.340 I'm always concerned is like, is there going to like, what's the future of human optimization?
00:29:12.440 Is it, is it going to create this, um, distinction between classes where like the wealthy can afford
00:29:18.120 to, you know, biohack their genes, um, you know, improve cognition and like, you know, parents will
00:29:24.520 send their kid, give their kids smart pills. They do awesome in the SAT while, you know, less affluent
00:29:29.140 people won't be able to do that. I mean, so what, what, I mean,
00:29:32.620 do you ever, do you ever take a big picture look at where this is going? I mean, what do
00:29:36.620 you see as the future of human optimization? Well, I think, I think it's really, you know,
00:29:41.040 while there is some, while there are some monetary boundaries to, you know, some of the tools that
00:29:45.920 you can use, I think more important than the tools is the idea. You know, I mean, if nobody,
00:29:51.200 if people didn't buy a single thing, you know, from on it, but just kind of followed along with the
00:29:56.360 movement, the inspiration, some of the basic principles of the nutrition, how to eat when you
00:30:00.740 have, you know, cause we can all make those small choices, um, in certain ways. I think the spirit
00:30:06.260 of it is a lot more important than the tools. Now, I think ultimately there may be some tools that
00:30:11.240 eventually evolve, uh, such as, you know, pretty dramatic gene modification that may, you know,
00:30:17.580 create some kind of disparity that gets a little weird. Um, but at this, at this level, you know,
00:30:23.100 everything is, you know, everything is applied in, in kind of a moderate level. You know, there's not
00:30:30.420 this, this big thing that's going to completely separate the classes. It's more about wherever
00:30:35.180 you're at, let's try to make that, let's try to make that optimal. And I think ultimately the only
00:30:41.620 defense against that other kind of more drastic optimization that could create class disparity
00:30:47.080 is for people to align their goals, um, with something like I was talking about earlier,
00:30:52.400 you know, truly for the good of all so that, you know, the people who are getting have, you know,
00:30:58.600 the fortunate blessing of being able to, to do these procedures and optimization techniques,
00:31:04.200 you know, they use whatever advantage they have and they take on the responsibility to do even more
00:31:10.040 work for the planet and for other people. And if that's the case, that just means that more
00:31:14.620 capability means more responsibility and everybody shares a different burden. And I think that's the,
00:31:20.460 really the only defense, um, because there are going to be opportunities that come about.
00:31:25.640 The only way to kind of even that out is to make sure that the, the heart and spirit of those who
00:31:30.320 are getting optimized is in a line with the good of the planet and the good of all.
00:31:34.420 Okay. So I always like to end these things with, uh, some practical takeaways. I mean,
00:31:38.560 if there's like one or two things that, you know, guy who's listening to this podcast can do today to
00:31:42.860 start optimizing his life, what would you recommend? Well, I think you can make it really
00:31:48.460 simple. First of all is, you know, breathe right. I think, you know, before you even worry about
00:31:53.600 supplements and anything else, you're trying to take every, you know, every opportunity you get
00:31:58.940 breathe with your diaphragm, take deep breaths. You know, a lot of people get in the habit of this
00:32:03.820 shallow chest breathing, which contributes to, you know, a lot of extra stress, um, and a depletion of
00:32:09.560 energy. So take some moments to breathe properly. And, you know, diaphragm breath is that breath that
00:32:15.220 goes all the way down to your stomach and take those few moments to do that. That's going to
00:32:20.020 make a huge improvement. And then also chilling, you know, these things that don't cost any money,
00:32:25.500 you know? So when you have food, a lot of times we're preoccupied and we're thinking about something
00:32:29.140 else and we're just worried about getting it down. Um, but take your time to chew your food.
00:32:34.040 That's going to take a lot of stress off your digestive system. It's going to allow more nutrients to
00:32:37.940 enter your body. Uh, it's going to reduce inflammation across the board. Um, you know,
00:32:42.520 there's an old saying, um, you know, drink your solids and chew your liquids, you know,
00:32:47.760 which basically means, you know, chew till there's nothing solid left in your mouth. And when you're
00:32:52.060 drinking juice, you know, go through that process to allow the saliva to help break down what you're
00:32:57.160 drinking. Cause even if you're drinking, you know, dense nutrient dense juices, but just chugging it down
00:33:02.120 that whole process of the saliva interacting in, uh, with the food is not going to be in place.
00:33:08.380 So, so those two things I think are really crucial and often overlooked. And, um, you know,
00:33:14.520 the third most important thing I would say is whatever your practice might be, find an opportunity
00:33:19.460 to get still. And that could be either meditation, that could be float tanks. Psychedelic medicine is a
00:33:25.460 tool that I've used that allows that, that real moment of clarity to come in where all the noise and
00:33:30.800 all the static and all the distraction goes away. And however you want to put that into your life,
00:33:36.140 you know, find that opportunity to get still. It could be yoga, it could be a hike out in nature.
00:33:41.240 Um, but those three things are going to make a huge difference, uh, in your performance. And then,
00:33:46.060 you know, of course on it, we have a bunch of tools as well. Um, but if you take care of those
00:33:49.860 first three, you're going to be in pretty good shape. Awesome. So besides on it, where else can people
00:33:54.260 find about your work? Cause you have like a personal blog, right? Yeah. Um,
00:33:57.720 aubreymarcus.com is kind of the new hub of everything. So it's got my links to all my
00:34:02.200 social media and, uh, some of the posts and podcasts and different stuff that we have going.
00:34:06.520 So if you just head to aubreymarcus.com, that's the best resource right now. Awesome. Well,
00:34:11.460 Aubrey Marcus, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure. Absolutely. Thank you,
00:34:15.600 Brad. I appreciate it. I appreciate everything you do. Your blog is, you know, one of the,
00:34:19.120 one of the few that are on my top list of, uh, of sites visits. So I really appreciate that.
00:34:23.900 I appreciate that. Thank you so much. For sure. Our guest today was Aubrey Marcus. Aubrey is the
00:34:29.040 founder and CEO of Onnit. It's a fitness and health company, and you can go to onnit.com to find out
00:34:33.820 about that. You can also check out his personal website, aubreymarcus.com for book reviews,
00:34:39.200 podcasts, and content that Aubrey has written. Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of
00:34:45.300 Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website
00:34:49.320 at artofmanliness.com. And if you've enjoyed this podcast and you're getting something out of it,
00:34:53.220 I'd really appreciate it if you'd give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher or whatever else you use to
00:34:57.580 listen to your podcast. That will help us out a lot. Until next time, this is Brett McKay telling
00:35:01.940 you to stay manly.