The Art of Manliness - A Guide to Getting Off the Grid

00:00:00.320 For fall break, the McKays are attempting their first familial backpacking trip.

00:00:04.280 Kate and I have been before, but we've never brought the kids, so this is going to be a lot of fun.

00:00:07.520 While we're out of touch, please enjoy this rebroadcast with Gary Collins about going off the grid for a much longer period of time.

00:00:13.200 Unfortunately, Gary passed away this fall, but he left behind a lot of great tips about simplifying your life.

00:00:24.740 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:28.020 Many dream of leaving the city in all of its tethers and obligations and creating a simpler, more independent life farther from the mainstream population and entirely off the grid.

00:00:36.840 But how do you go from that daydream to making such a move a reality?

00:00:40.160 Well, my guest walks us through the process today.

00:00:42.300 His name is Gary Collins.

00:00:43.420 He's made the leap himself and now lives off the grid in Northeast Washington.

00:00:47.180 He's also the author of several books on off the grid living, as well as simplifying your life.

00:00:50.700 We begin our conversation today with why Gary decided to leave his conventional urban 9-to-5 existence to find a freer lifestyle,

00:00:56.400 and how he defines being off the grid.

00:00:58.620 We then get into why Gary thinks you should make the move to living off the grid in a series of steps,

00:01:03.100 the first of which is to simplify your existing life in three main ways.

00:01:06.720 Gary then makes the case for why living in an RV should be the next step in your journey

00:01:10.160 before discussing the process of finding land for your off-grid home and the factors to consider in picking a locale.

00:01:15.580 From there, we get into how those who live off the grid take care of things like water, sewage, power, and internet,

00:01:20.560 how they construct the house itself, and what to know about the startup costs involved.

00:01:23.880 And we end our conversation with the discussion of getting off the grid in a more metaphorical way

00:01:27.760 by quitting social media, and why Gary thinks you should pull the plug on these platforms,

00:01:32.080 even if you're an entrepreneur.

00:01:33.500 After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash offgrid.

00:01:36.960 Gary joins you now via clearcast.io.

00:01:48.100 All right, Gary Collins, welcome to the show.

00:01:51.040 Hey, thanks for having me on, Brett. Appreciate it.

00:01:52.860 So you have written a series of books about going off the grid.

00:01:57.200 In addition, you've written books about simplifying your life.

00:02:00.540 And you're an expert in this stuff because you actually moved off the grid.

00:02:04.560 I mean, so tell us your story of why you decided to leave the city

00:02:07.860 and how you started getting going to moving off the grid.

00:02:12.840 Yeah, it's an interesting one because I am unique.

00:02:18.020 I didn't realize it at the time that I actually write about what I do instead of making it up

00:02:23.400 as I go along and write you nice little books that you want to hear.

00:02:26.760 I write the books that you need.

00:02:30.360 And some of it you may not want to hear, but you need to hear.

00:02:33.980 So that's...

00:02:35.400 And people will write me and they tell me that.

00:02:36.880 They go, you know, yeah, you kind of hit me in the areas where I know I need to change.

00:02:43.580 So with me, I grew up very remotely.

00:02:47.280 I grew up poor in a trailer in the middle of nowhere.

00:02:51.180 And my town was like 1,800 people, but I live 20, 25 miles outside of that town

00:02:56.780 in a town of less than 100 people.

00:02:59.040 So I grew up very remote in the sticks and, you know, a lot of freedom group in the 70s as a kid.

00:03:04.240 And anyone who grew up in the 70s know it was free range.

00:03:08.060 You know, you didn't have pagers.

00:03:09.580 You didn't have anything.

00:03:10.540 Cell phones, computers weren't even around yet.

00:03:12.820 There was no internet.

00:03:14.060 We had rotary phone.

00:03:15.200 We had a party line is what we were on.

00:03:17.560 And that's not where I talked to hot chicks who talked dirty to me.

00:03:21.400 It was, you know, Gertrude and everyone on our block was on the same phone line.

00:03:26.140 Because there just was no infrastructure and we were all poor.

00:03:29.640 So you'd pick up the phone.

00:03:31.080 And if Gertrude was on talking, you know, you couldn't call anyone for like three hours.

00:03:35.880 That's how it worked.

00:03:37.660 So, you know, when you're growing up, you think that life sucks, right?

00:03:41.360 You're all, God, my parents, this is brutal.

00:03:43.540 I bored out of my mind.

00:03:45.700 And as you get older, you realize, and you move to the city, you get into, you know, go to college and all that good stuff.

00:03:52.140 And yeah, I mean, I went to college, put myself through college, first kid to graduate from college in my family.

00:03:57.480 And just realized that at a point, city life was just sucking the life out of me.

00:04:04.440 And not that it was terrible, but after a while, you're like, there's got to be something else.

00:04:09.520 And I worked in the government, you know, I was military and starting the military, ended up as a federal agent.

00:04:15.000 So I spent, by the time I left, I'd had half my life in the federal government.

00:04:18.580 And I just was unhappy is the best way to put it.

00:04:23.160 I'd done, I'd done everyone that they told me, no, right?

00:04:26.500 The system told me, this is what you do.

00:04:29.800 You work hard, you go to college, you get a job, you get up, you're up to your eyeballs in debt.

00:04:36.280 You know, maybe you get married, have kids and grind for the rest of your life until you poop in a diaper and call it a day.

00:04:42.440 And I was like, this, this is, this is BS.

00:04:45.720 This is not working at all.

00:04:48.220 I'm more miserable than I've ever been.

00:04:50.520 You know, I've done everything.

00:04:52.320 I've been successful.

00:04:53.600 And I just, one day just said, that's it.

00:04:56.280 A bunch of circumstances happened.

00:04:58.640 And I'm glad they did.

00:04:59.980 At the time, they were pretty brutal.

00:05:01.680 I don't really talk about them.

00:05:02.980 But I left the government on my own free will and just left and started over.

00:05:08.060 Sold my house.

00:05:09.100 And the off-grid project, it was in the background.

00:05:11.940 But it wasn't quite off-grid yet.

00:05:14.560 I liked the idea, but it was more about just going back to remote living.

00:05:19.300 And growing up, we pretty much lived very close to living off the grid.

00:05:22.360 We just had power.

00:05:23.660 That's it.

00:05:24.320 We had power in this party line.

00:05:25.740 That was the only thing tying us to the grid.

00:05:27.600 We had our own well.

00:05:28.640 We had our own septic.

00:05:30.060 You know, there was no cable TV really back then.

00:05:32.600 It came in the 80s, I believe.

00:05:34.500 My friends had it, you know, in town.

00:05:37.660 So it was kind of getting back to that lifestyle.

00:05:39.980 And as I left and started researching and looking at raw land, the whole off-the-grid concept started.

00:05:46.940 And not only that, but I was in San Diego.

00:05:48.460 And during the, you know, the drought and the brownouts and all that, I kind of realized that the system was using us.

00:05:59.420 Because during the drought, they told us we mandatory had to drop our water consumption, I want to say, by 25%, 30%.

00:06:08.000 Or face massive hike bills and fines.

00:06:12.860 And I went, okay.

00:06:13.700 So we all cut our bills, but we did too good of a job.

00:06:16.960 Everyone conserved too much water, so they raised our bill.

00:06:20.420 I went, oh, that's how this works.

00:06:23.320 So we do what you tell us to do, but now you're losing revenue.

00:06:27.520 So now you raise our water bill.

00:06:29.700 Okay.

00:06:30.260 That makes sense.

00:06:31.700 So, you know what I mean?

00:06:32.460 I'd just gotten really burned out on the system and being manipulated and having my pocket picked every time I turned around.

00:06:41.100 So that's where the off-grid concept came from.

00:06:43.900 And that's kind of how it all began.

00:06:45.780 I mean, I searched for quite a few years.

00:06:47.840 It took me years to kind of figure out land and where I wanted to live in the country and, you know, what type of topography and what I was looking for.

00:06:56.520 That's kind of the down and dirty.

00:06:58.480 There was a lot more in there, but basically how it happened.

00:07:01.020 So, I mean, it sounds like you're driving impetus.

00:07:03.740 You just wanted, like the city life was just grinding you down.

00:07:07.460 You didn't, like you felt, you didn't feel free and you just wanted to get away from the rat race.

00:07:13.140 Pretty much.

00:07:14.380 And not only that, but it's hard to explain for people who have never grown up rurally and in small communities.

00:07:20.900 It's just, it's not that it's nirvana.

00:07:23.440 Every place has its problems.

00:07:25.000 But the freedom you had, you start to remember all the freedom you had and you look people in the face.

00:07:32.460 You know, you go to your local stores and you buy things from people you know.

00:07:36.780 You know, if anyone's going to get one over on you and try and screw you, well, they just won't be in business very long.

00:07:41.840 You know what I mean?

00:07:42.300 It's a different type of living and people really are focused on living.

00:07:47.380 And they're not focused on the minutia and all the noise and BS and, you know, drama.

00:07:53.440 And if they are, you just don't talk to them.

00:07:55.200 I mean, that's it.

00:07:56.740 In the city, it was, it just seemed like that was really hard to avoid.

00:08:01.480 And not only that, but growing up that way, I still have all my friends that I grew up with.

00:08:06.040 You know, all my good close friends, we're great friends to this day.

00:08:09.740 We talk all the time.

00:08:11.380 And that's the difference too.

00:08:12.460 Instead of these fleeting relationships that I found in the city, you realize that your lifelong relationships are, and they are, they're what keep me grounded.

00:08:21.720 Those relationships I know that my friends I grew up with, I can call them at any point in my life if things are going wrong and they're there.

00:08:28.640 No questions asked.

00:08:30.200 They'll help me.

00:08:31.140 I help them.

00:08:32.600 We just got each other's back.

00:08:33.920 It's a different, it's a different deal, I guess is the best way to put it.

00:08:37.920 So let's talk about going off grid and what's involved in that.

00:08:40.280 But before that, like, how do you define off grid?

00:08:43.180 Are there varying degrees of off-gridness that you could achieve?

00:08:47.040 Yeah, absolutely.

00:08:48.680 And off grid, the way I define it is very basic.

00:08:51.820 It's just not being tied to any public utilities.

00:08:54.860 But there's different variations of it because people often confuse off grid with homesteading.

00:09:01.360 Homesteading and off grid are different.

00:09:03.460 Homesteading is where you have a piece of land and you're self-sustaining.

00:09:07.140 And so you have animals, you know, you may crop, you know, small, small farming operation.

00:09:13.460 You know, it's more, that's a different, you can homestead without being off grid.

00:09:18.640 Or you can homestead and be off grid.

00:09:20.920 Or you can be off grid and not homestead.

00:09:23.620 So they're different.

00:09:24.960 And the variations of off grid, there's people that, you know, consider off grid.

00:09:29.760 I've gotten some goofy emails over the years.

00:09:33.060 And, you know, a guy said, you don't live off grid because you have running water.

00:09:36.440 I went, hmm, okay.

00:09:38.240 It's an interesting one.

00:09:39.800 And some people consider you not off grid if you have working plumbing and you're not pooping in a bucket or in an outhouse.

00:09:46.320 It just depends.

00:09:47.540 That's a great part about living off grid, though, is everyone does it differently.

00:09:51.440 If you go to, you know, 100 people living off grid, no two will be doing it the same.

00:09:57.260 It's your adventure and you pick your adventure.

00:10:00.480 You do it as much as you want or as little as you want and also to resources.

00:10:06.080 This lifestyle is not cheap.

00:10:07.580 People think they watch those cute little TV shows and think you can just throw together 500 bucks and throw up, you know, a yurt and all is good.

00:10:17.000 It really doesn't work that way.

00:10:19.280 TV makes it look a little more sexy than it is.

00:10:22.740 It's hard work and it does take money.

00:10:25.180 All right.

00:10:25.340 So, basic definition is if you're not tied to public utilities.

00:10:29.280 Yeah, that's the easiest definition.

00:10:31.280 Okay.

00:10:31.780 So, let's talk about going, someone who wants to go off grid.

00:10:35.400 I mean, that's a big decision.

00:10:37.120 Takes a lot of planning.

00:10:38.180 Takes a lot of money.

00:10:39.040 We'll talk about that here in a bit.

00:10:40.720 And for a lot of people, it's not something that they're going to do overnight.

00:10:44.420 This is probably going to be something you want to build up into.

00:10:47.320 And one thing you do in your books and your writing is that, you know, for those who are thinking about going off grid, one of the first steps you do or recommend is you encourage people just to begin by simplifying their current life.

00:10:59.820 What does that look like for you?

00:11:01.400 Yeah, because I always say you don't want to be one of those people who go from the city with a whole line of moving trucks to the country and basically take all your crap with you.

00:11:11.760 That's not the lifestyle.

00:11:12.860 The lifestyle is about simplification.

00:11:14.520 And that's where this whole thing came from.

00:11:15.900 This came from organically at a point where I realized I'm not teaching living off the grid.

00:11:22.040 And I was a health guy.

00:11:23.180 You know, I was an ancestral health, primal health guy.

00:11:25.680 That's the business I had when I left the government.

00:11:27.580 And it just evolved that going off the grid, but I never intended to write that.

00:11:32.180 That came off an interview and people sent me a bazillion emails asking me what the heck I was doing.

00:11:37.620 I hadn't even talked about it.

00:11:39.400 But yeah, I always tell people, you have to simplify your life first.

00:11:43.460 If you take all your junk and all your garbage and all your drama out to the sticks, nothing changes.

00:11:51.520 You're going to be miserable.

00:11:52.760 All you're going to be is miserable in the middle of nowhere.

00:11:57.120 That's it.

00:11:58.380 So it's about really, yeah, simplifying, decluttering.

00:12:02.280 I talk about getting rid of, you know, unnecessary items and paring it down, debt-free.

00:12:08.480 And I have the three-legged stool in the simple life that I teach.

00:12:11.540 Optimal health.

00:12:12.520 You need to be the healthiest you can possibly be.

00:12:14.600 Your health is your responsibility.

00:12:17.280 Being financially free by being debt-free and also finding your life purpose.

00:12:22.080 And it sounds incredibly simple, but I always say, too, simple is not easy.

00:12:27.060 Living simply is a lot of work, especially in the beginning, because you have to turn everything upside down.

00:12:32.300 You have to refocus on the things that are important.

00:12:36.600 And that's the problem today.

00:12:37.840 We focus on a lot of things that are not important.

00:12:40.980 They're just noise.

00:12:42.080 And it gets us off course of living the life we want to live.

00:12:45.560 And with that three-legged stool, I always talk about, it's about returning freedom to you as an individual.

00:12:52.880 By allowing agencies and big corporations and the government to take over those three things, you have willingly given away your freedom.

00:13:03.340 And it's about taking that freedom back.

00:13:05.400 That's about the simplification process.

00:13:08.620 So, yeah, the first step is basically decluttering.

00:13:11.380 Getting rid of the things you don't need.

00:13:13.560 Getting down, paring down your debt.

00:13:15.820 Working on to be eventually debt-free.

00:13:18.440 And do it step by step.

00:13:20.380 So, when you make the decision, if you're going to live off-grid, that it's all there.

00:13:26.060 You know what I mean?

00:13:26.440 If you go live off-grid and your eyeball's up in debt, your health is horrible, and you're floundering with your life, it's not going to fix those problems automatically.

00:13:39.700 Yeah, it might make it worse, actually.

00:13:41.700 It very well could make it worse.

00:13:43.560 Well, and I've seen it.

00:13:44.420 I've seen marriages go completely south.

00:13:47.300 You know, because they thought they would fix everything and, you know, it'd be great.

00:13:50.660 And now you're stuck in the same house and same property with each other 24-7.

00:13:56.080 It just enhances those issues that you had before.

00:14:00.120 All right.

00:14:00.280 So, simplifying your life.

00:14:01.620 I mean, because that's part of it.

00:14:02.400 When you go off-grid, you're going to have to get used to dealing with less or being able to manage with less.

00:14:08.360 So, might as well sort of do training wheels before that while you're still connected to the grid.

00:14:12.340 But another thing you recommend for folks to kind of get a taste of what it's like to go off-grid is to try the RV lifestyle.

00:14:21.080 Is that something you did before you decided to go off-grid?

00:14:24.320 I did.

00:14:25.020 I still live in my RV to this day.

00:14:27.200 I spend the good, nice months up in my off-grid house.

00:14:31.680 I don't like cold weather.

00:14:32.820 I've had many surgeries and getting old.

00:14:35.660 And I just don't like it.

00:14:36.880 I don't like cold weather.

00:14:38.120 So, when it gets cold, and plus it's dangerous.

00:14:40.720 My property is I'd have to snowmobile in and out during the winter.

00:14:44.800 And it just – it wouldn't be fun.

00:14:47.520 And I knew that.

00:14:48.200 I knew that coming in that I had planned this was going to be more of a summer.

00:14:53.420 You know, I spend about seven months up here.

00:14:54.980 I still spend a big part of the time.

00:14:57.440 But, yeah, I live the other part of the year in my RV to this day.

00:15:01.320 I started eight years ago living in my RV.

00:15:04.900 And it's great because what you have to do, what it does is it forces you to minimize.

00:15:09.440 It forces you to declutter.

00:15:11.620 You cannot store very much stuff in an RV.

00:15:15.300 I don't care how big the RV is.

00:15:16.840 If you go get a $300,000, $500,000 massive, you know, RV, you're still going to be limited on space.

00:15:24.380 So, that's what it teaches you, too.

00:15:25.860 And also, you can dry camp, which means you're not tied to any utilities.

00:15:29.860 You're using – you're holding tanks.

00:15:32.280 You're holding water.

00:15:33.300 You're probably charging your batteries off a trickle cell solar panel that's on the roof.

00:15:38.160 You know, you don't have access to TV or anything.

00:15:40.820 So, I always say, you know, go out and dry camp.

00:15:43.580 Try it out.

00:15:44.500 Try an RV out and see what you think of it.

00:15:46.940 And it's kind of a way to do a test run before you take a big step.

00:15:51.360 And it's a lot cheaper.

00:15:52.700 I mean, RV living is cheap.

00:15:55.760 I mean, really cheap.

00:15:56.960 If you do it right.

00:15:59.520 So, like, what kind of RVs do you recommend for – you know, how do you figure out which RV is best for you?

00:16:03.360 Because there's a whole bunch of different – you can get, like, the big cruiser things that, you know, Taylor Swift rides in or you can do other stuff.

00:16:10.340 It just depends.

00:16:11.520 And that's why I always say it's pick your journey.

00:16:14.240 And that's why you should research it.

00:16:16.000 And I always recommend renting RVs in the beginning.

00:16:19.900 And try them out.

00:16:20.940 You know, go on a vacation in an area that you're interested in living and renting an RV and living it and get your feet wet.

00:16:28.360 Start out.

00:16:29.540 I'm a big guy of – I have a way I do everything in life.

00:16:33.560 Plan, organization, execution.

00:16:37.580 If you follow that pattern through life, your success rate will be much, much higher.

00:16:43.080 You know, you come up with your plan.

00:16:44.760 You organize your plan.

00:16:46.340 Then you execute your plan step by step.

00:16:49.000 I mean, that's how I run my business.

00:16:50.580 I run everything in my life.

00:16:52.040 I always try and organize and have a plan.

00:16:55.160 And so, do that.

00:16:55.820 And, you know, don't go too far ahead of yourself because the off-grid world is littered with failure.

00:17:01.580 Most people who jump right into it fail.

00:17:04.540 So, take the steps.

00:17:05.480 Make sure it's for you.

00:17:06.400 It may not be for you.

00:17:07.480 You may be a hybrid.

00:17:08.700 You may want – a lot of people just like the RV living.

00:17:11.280 Heck, I like it.

00:17:12.980 And so, it depends.

00:17:14.160 Do you have a family?

00:17:15.380 How much space do you need?

00:17:16.700 You know, the easiest thing for me, especially in the beginning, well, it depends.

00:17:21.920 But travel trailers, they're easy because if you tow them around, you know, the RV is not your vehicle.

00:17:29.040 So, you have your vehicle still.

00:17:30.720 But you need a bigger vehicle.

00:17:32.140 You need a truck.

00:17:32.800 And I'd recommend a half-ton or above.

00:17:36.460 I have a one-ton diesel.

00:17:38.720 And, you know, you tow it around and you can play with them.

00:17:41.480 They're cheaper than the other options of, you know, fifth wheel.

00:17:45.580 Fifth wheel is the bigger kind of – you call – a fifth wheel goes in the bed of your truck.

00:17:52.600 So, that's how it mounts.

00:17:54.100 That's where the hitch is.

00:17:55.840 A travel trailer, we call it a tow-behind because it goes to the hitch on your bumper, to the rear of your vehicle.

00:18:01.820 Very similar in design, they tow completely differently.

00:18:06.860 You know, and then your RVs are more expensive as far as your class A, B, and C.

00:18:10.920 But all of it's dependent upon size and budget and what you're looking for.

00:18:16.640 It totally depends.

00:18:19.180 And that's what I mean with this adventure.

00:18:21.040 I always tell people, I can't hold your hand.

00:18:24.460 You know, I can give you the basic information, but it's your life.

00:18:27.560 You have to choose what works for you.

00:18:29.740 And that's what I mean on the RV side, though.

00:18:32.840 The easiest, simplest way is a travel trailer if you're going to buy, you know, right away.

00:18:38.020 Or rent and rent one of the smaller, you know, like a class B or something and test it out.

00:18:45.680 That's how I would recommend doing it.

00:18:48.440 Right.

00:18:48.620 So, yeah, it sounds like testing out the off-grid lifestyle with an RV.

00:18:51.820 You get to see what it's like to live with reduced amenities, what it's like to deal with, you know, having to think about your electricity, having to think about your waste, how to think about your water.

00:19:04.480 Because right, if you're in your house, you never think about that stuff.

00:19:06.520 You just take it for granted.

00:19:07.900 RV makes you think about those things.

00:19:10.200 And also, it's a good test run.

00:19:11.480 You might find out, like you said, maybe RV living is just for you.

00:19:14.640 Maybe you get an RV and you decide, well, in the summer, we're gone and we just do that.

00:19:19.420 And in the winter, we come back to our house or vice versa.

00:19:21.900 It could be the other way.

00:19:23.260 Yeah.

00:19:23.400 And I have a lot of people who follow me who do a multitude of this.

00:19:27.560 I mean, it's crazy.

00:19:28.800 I get the emails and, you know, I have people from straight RV living all year, people who live off-grid all year, homesteaders.

00:19:36.640 Yeah, it's a wide variety.

00:19:38.300 And that's the beautiful part about this lifestyle.

00:19:41.440 You get to pick it.

00:19:42.680 You get to choose it.

00:19:43.960 It's your adventure.

00:19:45.300 All right.

00:19:45.480 So, let's say you test out the RV lifestyle and you decide, okay, I'm going to go further with this.

00:19:49.740 I actually want to buy a place, buy property, and go off-grid.

00:19:54.320 But again, you're still not making the jump right away.

00:19:56.840 You actually recommend folks, okay, there's a transition period.

00:19:59.400 If you own a house, you recommend folks selling your home and then renting an apartment or a house.

00:20:05.780 Why is that?

00:20:07.260 Again, well, it depends.

00:20:08.480 But for most people in the city, that's kind of the natural progression.

00:20:12.560 Or rent your house out.

00:20:13.840 I mean, if you can make money on your house and turn it into an investment, that's a real good option, too.

00:20:18.720 That's what I've done for 20 years.

00:20:20.580 That was my side business is real estate.

00:20:23.020 So, it's an easy transition, too, because instead of going from zero to 60, selling your house and going straight off-grid, not really having a place to live, and job, too.

00:20:34.800 You have to figure out how are you going to support yourself.

00:20:36.840 That's getting easier today with all the chaos going on because now we're going hyperspeed into remote working.

00:20:43.840 But for some people, they may still have to go to the office and plan things out so you can transition into an apartment or rent a house and then take the next step.

00:20:54.240 And that's what I mean.

00:20:54.800 If you take it slow, everyone wants everything right now.

00:20:59.080 This lifestyle doesn't work that way.

00:21:01.420 Even when you get here, it's not right now.

00:21:04.640 Everything takes time.

00:21:05.820 Everything you do is a slower process.

00:21:09.380 Living is a slower process.

00:21:10.980 It's great.

00:21:12.300 So, just take that transition, and that way you're not leaping into anything and not buying something.

00:21:17.680 That's the biggest thing is it gives you time to kind of solidify your plan without making a major financial commitment that you may regret.

00:21:26.940 That's the biggest point.

00:21:28.040 So, if you can sell your house, rent, downsize, too.

00:21:32.040 Also, downsize.

00:21:33.420 Don't rent something the same size or bigger.

00:21:36.260 You need to rent something significantly smaller so you can take that transition for the next leap.

00:21:42.540 And that's what I did.

00:21:43.220 I went from a 1,700-square-foot house to a basically 475-square-foot studio.

00:21:50.800 And that's what I did.

00:21:51.820 And then I moved into my RV.

00:21:54.660 So, there was these phases I went through where I downsized, downsized, simplified, simplified, and built the business I have and then got everything going.

00:22:03.660 And then it was a lot less stressful that way.

00:22:07.060 Don't get me wrong.

00:22:07.660 It wasn't that it was easy, but it took a lot of the stress out of it.

00:22:12.180 We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:22:16.700 And now back to the show.

00:22:18.520 All right.

00:22:18.680 So, we've been talking about sort of the stuff leading up to going on.

00:22:21.280 And we're still not even there yet.

00:22:22.300 And like the next step.

00:22:23.160 So, you say you've done all this stuff.

00:22:24.700 You've practiced with RV living.

00:22:26.900 You've sold your home.

00:22:28.060 You're sort of downsizing.

00:22:29.420 The first step of going off-grid, like really going off-grid, is like finding land where you're going to live off-grid.

00:22:35.800 And that can be hard.

00:22:37.100 And I think a lot of people, like you said, a lot of people just want to buy something right away.

00:22:40.940 You advocate to take it slow.

00:22:42.840 So, when someone's looking at property, what sort of factors should people look into when they're deciding on property to build their off-grid home?

00:22:51.820 Well, and the biggest thing is what most people don't know in the beginning is what they're looking for.

00:22:57.620 Right?

00:22:58.160 This is all new.

00:22:59.880 So, I always recommend take your vacations or travel to areas that you're interested in.

00:23:04.940 You know, if you're interested in living in the Midwest somewhere off-grid, well, go to the Midwest.

00:23:10.500 Check out the towns.

00:23:11.560 Drive around.

00:23:12.240 That's what I did.

00:23:13.080 I was lucky in the government.

00:23:14.720 I traveled all over all the time.

00:23:17.020 So, I kind of already knew the area where I was looking at already.

00:23:22.000 But get about five places.

00:23:24.060 And the easiest way is to research it on Zillow.

00:23:26.420 And just research land.

00:23:27.840 You just check the box that says land.

00:23:30.880 And what it will do is it will give you an idea of what's available and how much it costs.

00:23:35.240 Because you may want to live in a certain area, but you may not be able to afford that area.

00:23:40.020 So, that will change your plan.

00:23:42.920 And wants are great.

00:23:43.940 It's not about wants.

00:23:44.880 It's what you can afford and what works.

00:23:47.920 So, I recommend that.

00:23:49.960 And just take your time.

00:23:51.000 Go to the areas.

00:23:51.700 And not only that, the biggest part that I think a lot of people miss, too, is you're moving into a community.

00:23:58.740 Cities are different.

00:23:59.920 Cities, it's a melting pot of a lot of things.

00:24:03.920 Well, when you go remote, you're in a small community.

00:24:06.420 And it already kind of has a personality.

00:24:08.620 And they're not going to change their personality to fit you.

00:24:12.300 You need to blend into it.

00:24:14.880 And that's one of the biggest problems I see people doing moving from the city to out, especially out here where I'm at.

00:24:21.000 There's a couple of towns that are just blowing up with people from California and other places.

00:24:26.040 Thank God I don't live there.

00:24:28.580 But what they do is they bring in all their drama and BS into these small towns and try and change everything to what they were leaving.

00:24:36.520 Trust me.

00:24:37.040 You will make enemies and put yourself in a bad light right away.

00:24:42.060 And not only that, but there's towns that, you know, you just, it's just human nature.

00:24:47.240 There's places that you go to and you just don't fit in.

00:24:49.960 That's just part of life.

00:24:51.220 So make sure that you fit in and that, you know, that you get along with the people, you believe in the lifestyle, you like, you know, you like the, you know, the downtown and all that.

00:25:01.560 And if you need a medical facility, if it's there around, those are the things you have to look at.

00:25:06.640 And so that's, I mean, you have to spend some time in it, in the town or area you're in to make sure it's a good fit.

00:25:14.220 That's probably one of the most important points that I try to tell people is make sure it's a good fit.

00:25:22.820 Because if you get there and it's not, and I know I've seen this happen too, it's not a pleasant experience.

00:25:30.020 And you're remote, so it's harder for you to get out.

00:25:32.540 If you buy a property, in most places, it's not easy just to turn around and sell it right away.

00:25:38.340 All right.

00:25:38.560 So yeah, take your time with this.

00:25:39.760 Don't rush into making a purchase.

00:25:41.760 What do you think about Lands of America?

00:25:43.500 Is that a good place to check too?

00:25:45.660 Yeah.

00:25:46.600 Gosh, did I use them back in the day?

00:25:49.280 I can't remember.

00:25:53.200 It's tricky.

00:25:54.220 And that's what I mean.

00:25:55.660 I used a couple services to look.

00:25:59.660 They've gotten better because it's becoming more popular.

00:26:02.780 Back when I was doing it, it wasn't as popular and there weren't a whole lot of land agencies.

00:26:06.740 But that's one of the bigger ones to get a good idea and look.

00:26:10.000 And that's what they kind of, you know, that's what they specialize in.

00:26:14.000 So they're a good one.

00:26:15.500 But the way I tell people, it's good feet on the ground.

00:26:19.760 You got to go up there and do it yourself.

00:26:22.400 Because there's a lot of properties too that are for sale by owner or maybe through the local real estate office that just aren't listed or that people know about.

00:26:32.480 You know, mine was on realtor.com and everything, but it was pretty hard to find.

00:26:41.020 And who brought my attention to it was a local realtor.

00:26:44.120 I didn't see it in my research, but he knew about it.

00:26:48.580 And it'd been on, you know, it'd been listed for over, what, two years, year and a half?

00:26:53.820 Wow.

00:26:54.000 That's what I mean.

00:26:54.500 So the best way is the best deals and some of the land that you won't find are the good ones.

00:27:02.320 Not to say you won't find it online because that's changed too.

00:27:06.080 I bought another property that I'm going to build a house in another part of the country.

00:27:09.640 I found it through a realtor online.

00:27:12.500 I mean, I found it.

00:27:13.680 Or wait, no, she found it.

00:27:14.880 So, I knew the area and then she fine-tuned our search because she was local in this area.

00:27:21.540 And I knew the area, but not real well.

00:27:24.180 And so, she was like, oh, yeah, yeah, no problem.

00:27:26.700 And it took her, you know, she listed about 30 properties.

00:27:29.340 I went through all of them and I found, I've been doing this a long time.

00:27:32.900 I found it the next day.

00:27:34.400 I found my property the next day and had it closed in like a week.

00:27:38.280 Or I just got it all set up.

00:27:39.680 But don't expect that.

00:27:41.640 Like I said, I've been doing this a long time and real estate is still a side business that I do.

00:27:47.520 So, yeah, it sounds like the big takeaway there.

00:27:49.140 Instead of just, I mean, use online.

00:27:51.240 But like if you really want to find good land, you have to actually go to the place where you're thinking about living.

00:27:56.440 Yeah.

00:27:56.580 And just check things out, start talking to people.

00:27:59.360 And that's typically where you find the really good stuff.

00:28:01.840 Yeah.

00:28:02.460 Never buy land sight unseen.

00:28:04.640 Never, ever do that.

00:28:05.260 I'm sure there's people who do that and they regret it.

00:28:07.620 But they do, actually, it happens a lot in off-grid and remote living.

00:28:11.660 A lot of people buy land sight unseen.

00:28:14.220 Don't do it.

00:28:15.320 Huge mistake.

00:28:17.120 All right.

00:28:17.320 So, let's say you found your property.

00:28:19.680 We got to think about like whenever you read like survival books, when you're not connected to the grid, one of the first things they say is you got to look for water.

00:28:26.380 Yep.

00:28:26.460 So, what is, how do you take care of water when you're not connected to the municipal water?

00:28:31.180 And that's when, you know, going to the property and seeing for yourself is that's where you're going to understand.

00:28:38.280 And water is the key.

00:28:39.480 I always say if you don't have access to water, you just bought a high-cost camping site is what you just did.

00:28:45.800 Or you're going to have to haul water.

00:28:47.540 And people in the beginning, and I've seen this too, oh, I'll just haul water.

00:28:52.120 And they've never hauled water before.

00:28:53.860 And I go, you know how hard that is?

00:28:56.040 How are you going to haul it in the winter?

00:28:57.160 You do realize it's going to freeze.

00:28:59.640 And they're like, I never thought of that.

00:29:03.120 Hauling water is a pain.

00:29:04.400 I know people who do it.

00:29:05.620 It is a major, major inconvenience.

00:29:08.420 It's not, it wasn't worth it to me.

00:29:10.380 I mean, I grew up in places where people hauled water and I just, it wasn't for me.

00:29:15.120 But it's a well.

00:29:16.180 You have to have access.

00:29:17.260 You drill a well.

00:29:18.480 It's becoming a little trickier today.

00:29:20.280 The price has gone up and some places are not allowing people to drill wells.

00:29:24.720 Like there's a limit.

00:29:25.580 So it's getting a little more difficult.

00:29:28.440 But yeah, you're just going to drill a well.

00:29:30.420 And the easiest formulation for cost is it's roughly $50 to $60 a linear foot per final.

00:29:37.840 So that's a pump, casing, everything.

00:29:40.600 My well was $25,000.

00:29:42.560 It was one of my most expensive things.

00:29:44.680 It's the first thing I did though, was drill for water.

00:29:48.200 The easiest way, if you're in an area remote, almost everyone around you has wells.

00:29:53.780 So they, what they do is they, the well company will do a survey.

00:30:00.140 So they'll go, they just pull it up.

00:30:01.740 They have a database that they all have.

00:30:03.780 They pull it up and they'll see what, where the wells are and what the depths.

00:30:07.380 And that way you kind of have an idea.

00:30:10.140 I knew where I'm at.

00:30:11.260 I mean, I'm above a lake.

00:30:12.320 I'm surrounded by lakes and everyone around me, you know, has wells.

00:30:17.700 We know they're there.

00:30:18.920 I mean, even though they're far away, we knew there was water here.

00:30:22.100 That wasn't the issue.

00:30:22.860 It's how deep is the water?

00:30:25.360 How deep are we going to have to drill to get it?

00:30:27.240 I'm at the top of a mountain.

00:30:28.800 So if I was down below, my well would have probably cost me $7,000.

00:30:32.640 So that's what you have to look at too.

00:30:35.640 By me wanting to be on the top of a mountain and have these great, fantastic views I have,

00:30:40.580 that means my well costs more because I have to drill further down.

00:30:44.240 But yeah, you're just going to use a well, but you can also buy properties with water,

00:30:48.180 with a creek.

00:30:49.440 And that's a great way to go too.

00:30:51.900 But creeks can dry up.

00:30:53.740 That's the doubt, but wells can too.

00:30:56.080 So, but creeks, you know, and you can use hydropower on creeks as well.

00:31:00.100 You know, if you want to be on a lake as well, I lived on a lake as I was building my house

00:31:04.920 several years ago and we got our water from the lake with through a pump and a filter system.

00:31:12.180 So there's, you know, you just have to make sure you have access to water.

00:31:15.700 All right.

00:31:15.840 So we talked about water.

00:31:16.980 So another thing, when you're off the grid, you're not connected to sewers.

00:31:20.040 So what do you do?

00:31:21.020 What do you do with human waste?

00:31:22.120 You got to manage that.

00:31:22.960 So what do you do with it?

00:31:24.300 You just dig a hole.

00:31:25.840 No, you can't.

00:31:27.340 In some areas, you can still have an outhouse like Alaska.

00:31:31.980 You know, Alaska, you can still have outhouses in certain parts of the country and a lot of

00:31:37.920 parts, outhouses are for seasonal cabins.

00:31:41.140 And that's what I mean by code.

00:31:42.360 And I preach that to you.

00:31:43.560 You need to build everything to code, do it.

00:31:46.020 It's a pain.

00:31:46.840 I know you get involved with bureaucracy and government, but if you don't do it that way,

00:31:51.560 you basically are selling land when you go to sell your property because your house is

00:31:56.380 unapproved.

00:31:57.540 It's not up to code, more than likely.

00:32:00.440 And I get into that in the book.

00:32:03.400 But yeah, again, I grew up with gravity-fed septic.

00:32:07.660 Been around forever.

00:32:09.080 It hasn't changed much.

00:32:11.240 So that's the most common.

00:32:12.680 And what that is, is that's a septic tank with a leach field.

00:32:15.800 So your solids go into the tank and then all your liquids go out into a leach field that

00:32:22.060 basically spreads it out.

00:32:23.560 It's all underground and that dissipates and spreads out and then soaks into the earth.

00:32:28.520 Real basic.

00:32:29.600 And gravity-fed means you have an angle of your sewage pipe in your house and outside

00:32:35.900 to the tank, and it all feeds off gravity.

00:32:39.260 That's how it works.

00:32:40.100 There's no that.

00:32:41.100 But if you don't have the ability to have gravity-fed, you need a pump system, which

00:32:45.440 means you have to pump that sewage from the house, depending where the line is.

00:32:53.080 And that gets more complicated, and that's expensive.

00:32:55.780 That's a lot more expensive.

00:32:57.080 But most people have gravity-fed.

00:32:59.680 Like I said, it's what we used growing up.

00:33:01.600 It's what you do when you live in the sticks.

00:33:03.860 And yeah, it's not that difficult.

00:33:06.020 Can you put them in yourself?

00:33:07.240 Sure.

00:33:07.800 Sure.

00:33:08.320 Yeah, you can put them in yourself.

00:33:09.420 You need a bulldozer or an excavator, though, because you got to dig a pretty big hole.

00:33:13.020 But it's just a tank and pipe and goes out into a leach field.

00:33:18.160 It's pretty basic.

00:33:19.820 Well, so we've taken care of water, taken care of sewage.

00:33:22.120 Power, that's a big thing.

00:33:23.520 So what do you do about power when you're not using the grid for your power source?

00:33:29.000 Yeah, and you have three ways you can get...

00:33:31.040 Well, four, technically.

00:33:32.380 You can use, obviously, the most common and most popular is solar.

00:33:35.980 You can use wind, and you can use hydro.

00:33:39.720 Hydro is, if you have a running stream, you can use hydropower.

00:33:43.580 Real easy setup.

00:33:45.360 And then the fourth, which is not as common, is geothermal.

00:33:49.480 Geothermal, you can DIY it yourself.

00:33:52.200 There's ways to do it.

00:33:53.780 But for most people, it's probably a pretty advanced step if you've never done it before.

00:33:59.600 And you have to have proper land conditions and all that.

00:34:02.280 But there are professional systems, geothermal, highly efficient.

00:34:06.740 Highly efficient.

00:34:07.760 Problem is, really expensive.

00:34:11.040 And it depends where your land is.

00:34:13.300 Like, I couldn't do geothermal up here.

00:34:14.940 I live in slabs of decomposing granite, and I'm on granite right now.

00:34:20.320 So it wouldn't work.

00:34:22.260 But most people use solar or a combination.

00:34:25.600 I'm getting ready to put my wind turbine finally.

00:34:28.060 I've been meaning to put it in for three years now, timing.

00:34:30.660 But I'm putting that in next month.

00:34:32.600 I just ordered it.

00:34:33.980 But I use solar.

00:34:35.440 I have now, I started with six panels.

00:34:39.220 I now have 12 panels.

00:34:41.940 Multiple, I've built the stanchions and stuff.

00:34:45.360 But it runs my whole house, no problem.

00:34:47.460 And batteries.

00:34:48.240 You need backup battery where you store that energy.

00:34:51.480 Because at night, you don't have sunlight.

00:34:53.520 So no sunlight, no power.

00:34:55.920 So you have to store that in a battery bank.

00:34:57.940 And the battery technology has come a long way.

00:35:01.900 A really long way.

00:35:03.940 Yeah, Elon Musk is helping out with that.

00:35:06.840 Yeah, and the concept of solar, all the technologies here.

00:35:10.080 And that's the part that I think people, you know, they think it's a little more complicated than it is.

00:35:16.480 But it's not.

00:35:17.460 I live in a normal house.

00:35:19.220 I have a washer, dryer, fridge.

00:35:20.780 I have the same stove in this house that I had in my house in San Diego.

00:35:25.380 It's the exact same stove.

00:35:27.260 I mean, I live pretty close.

00:35:28.860 I have hot water.

00:35:30.260 I have running water.

00:35:31.300 I have two full bathrooms.

00:35:33.840 If you walk in my house, you would not know it's off-grid.

00:35:37.120 It runs exactly like a normal house.

00:35:40.280 But the solar, you know, that's the most common.

00:35:43.380 And the panels are really cheap now.

00:35:44.940 The price on panels have come down a lot.

00:35:46.900 So, yeah, it's whatever you want.

00:35:50.940 Whatever your desires are, there's a system.

00:35:53.500 If you want to have a jacuzzi and a pool and 4,000 square foot house with central heating and cooling,

00:36:01.940 you can do it off-grid.

00:36:02.980 It's going to cost you a lot.

00:36:04.220 But you can do it.

00:36:05.480 The systems are all there.

00:36:06.720 All the technology is there.

00:36:08.580 All right.

00:36:08.800 So, we're taking care of power.

00:36:10.120 So, what about the house itself?

00:36:11.700 Because I think most people think if they're going to move off-grid, like you said,

00:36:14.080 they move into a yurt or they're moving to a cabin or like a tiny house.

00:36:19.060 It doesn't have to be like that, right?

00:36:21.400 No, you can do whatever you want.

00:36:22.880 That's the great part about it, too.

00:36:24.300 The one thing you're probably not going to do unless you live in a very, you know,

00:36:29.300 neutral temperature zone where it's really nice is build a 2x4 stick frame.

00:36:33.820 You're probably not going to do that.

00:36:35.440 But my house is made out of a product called BazWall, which is an insulated concrete form.

00:36:42.780 And my walls are about 14 inches thick.

00:36:45.840 So, that's a green material that I use because I'm at the top of a mountain.

00:36:50.200 You know, the winters are really cold.

00:36:53.160 So, I needed more insulation.

00:36:55.020 But you don't have to do that.

00:36:56.080 You can usually 2x6 framing is what most people use.

00:37:00.480 Most people do not use central heating and cooling because it's a big tax on your alternative energy system.

00:37:07.600 But people do.

00:37:08.360 I have an air conditioner.

00:37:09.180 It's just a portable air conditioner because I only need it a little part of the year because of where I live.

00:37:15.560 But yeah, you can go from that to you can...

00:37:17.800 And teeny homes are a little confusing as well.

00:37:20.420 There's two different types of teeny homes.

00:37:23.380 The teeny home that we're reversed with is the one on a rolling chassis, right?

00:37:28.060 It looks like a trailer.

00:37:29.300 You pull it behind your car.

00:37:31.420 That's the one people are most familiar with.

00:37:34.100 But the other definition of teeny home in off-grid living or remote living is a house that's 500 square feet or smaller.

00:37:41.980 It's a normal house.

00:37:43.480 It's just small.

00:37:45.060 That's it.

00:37:46.000 It's built the same way, same materials for the most part, but it's 500 square feet or smaller.

00:37:52.080 But materials-wise, I would say the...

00:37:54.440 And I mean, people convert pole barns.

00:37:56.300 People, I have a friend who was living in his shed, in a shed till he got married.

00:38:01.700 He built the shed, insulated it, put running water in it.

00:38:05.980 There's, I mean, again, everyone does it differently, but it's going to depend where you live.

00:38:12.640 You know, if you live in an area that is extremely cold, well, you're going to have to have far better insulation value.

00:38:19.280 So, you're probably going to have a much thicker walls, hay bale construction.

00:38:24.220 You know, there's still adobe houses.

00:38:26.920 I mean, sandbags.

00:38:28.800 You name it.

00:38:30.260 You can do it.

00:38:31.940 I'm going to say those are not easy.

00:38:33.840 The ones I just talked about are very difficult to build.

00:38:37.180 People think they're easy, again, because they watch TV shows.

00:38:40.100 I know many people who have built those houses.

00:38:42.300 They're hard to build.

00:38:43.600 The easiest today is still stick frame, you know, your typical standard construction, which you can do.

00:38:50.360 You can totally do.

00:38:51.500 It's not a big deal.

00:38:52.900 It's just your walls are thicker.

00:38:54.220 Right.

00:38:54.380 That's it.

00:38:55.120 So, another thing, you're living remotely.

00:38:57.740 You're off the grid.

00:38:58.560 But you have an online business and you're talking to me via the internet.

00:39:01.840 Yep.

00:39:02.080 So, how's that happening?

00:39:03.500 Yep.

00:39:04.520 Yeah, I get accused, too, of not living off grid because I have internet.

00:39:08.580 Well, there's a couple different ways of internet now.

00:39:11.380 And it's come a long way, even though it's, I thought it would be better still.

00:39:16.400 But, you know, a lot of people remote use satellite internet.

00:39:20.580 A satellite is not a good way to run a business, but it's a good way to have internet access for email and all that because it still has data limits.

00:39:28.480 I don't know of any that's unlimited yet.

00:39:31.420 I got lucky.

00:39:32.600 I got grandfathered into an unlimited planned a couple years ago, but I use Wi-Fi, a hotspot.

00:39:39.160 I use a hotspot.

00:39:40.080 So, it's through a company, cellular company.

00:39:43.500 I want to mention it because if people are listening in my area, they could screw up my internet bandwidth.

00:39:48.220 If they all buy it, I hate to be that way.

00:39:51.160 But today, it's already happening.

00:39:52.780 With people working at home, it's kind of crunching my bandwidth a little bit.

00:39:58.280 But yeah, there's that technology.

00:40:00.700 And then there's cellular or radio technology, kind of a weird way to call it.

00:40:05.020 But they're little satellites, dishes, which I'll be using in my other property.

00:40:09.180 And it points at a cell tower, and it's its own kind of internet access.

00:40:14.540 So, there's numerous ways.

00:40:16.400 And I tell people that, too.

00:40:17.640 The reason I picked this property as well is I had my cell phone with me.

00:40:20.660 And the first thing I did once we got here is I pulled my cell phone out to see if I had reception.

00:40:26.040 I'm lucky.

00:40:27.100 The cell tower is a long way away from me, but it's on another mountain line of sight.

00:40:32.820 So, I can get my binoculars, and I can see my cell tower.

00:40:36.820 It's on another mountain, but it's out there.

00:40:38.880 So, this worked.

00:40:40.460 If I was down below in the valley, there's places where it's completely dead.

00:40:45.400 There's no cell phone reception at all.

00:40:48.220 So, you have to look at that, too.

00:40:49.540 If you're going to run a business online, you have to have access.

00:40:55.640 Okay.

00:40:56.240 So, we've talked about some of the big things.

00:40:58.160 Again, for every person, it's going to be different.

00:41:00.640 You give basically sort of big picture advice, and you go into details on some things.

00:41:05.020 But for most of the stuff, you're going to have to figure this out on your own.

00:41:08.460 But let's talk about money.

00:41:10.220 Because a lot of people think, oh, off-grid, it's going to be cheaper.

00:41:13.560 You just talked about your well cost you $25,000.

00:41:16.600 What are we talking about with startup costs for going off-grid?

00:41:20.960 Oh, gosh.

00:41:21.540 I hate doing this.

00:41:22.500 It depends.

00:41:23.640 You can take it any direction.

00:41:25.220 I know people have bought land, financed it through a sell-by-owner, and then they financed it.

00:41:32.620 It's a couple hundred bucks a month.

00:41:33.820 They drag a beat up their old trailer, or they live in their van.

00:41:40.060 I've seen people build 4,000-square-foot cabins.

00:41:43.900 It just depends, again, what your budget is.

00:41:46.240 But I always say, this lifestyle costs money, especially in the beginning.

00:41:52.880 If you don't have your finances in order, this is not going to work.

00:41:56.660 Because people think automatically that off-grid does.

00:42:00.520 It means cheap living.

00:42:01.960 Well, yeah, if you're debt-free.

00:42:04.420 If you're not debt-free and you have a bunch of bills, those bills are not going away.

00:42:08.460 Yeah, you'll get rid of your monthly internet.

00:42:12.600 It won't be as high.

00:42:13.580 Cable, maybe all that good stuff.

00:42:15.340 But you're still going to have bills.

00:42:17.600 I mean, you still have to, if you're going to use internet, you still have to have a cell phone if you're going to want to have a cell phone.

00:42:24.500 So I always recommend, have a good savings coming into this.

00:42:27.860 And that's what I did.

00:42:28.460 I spent five years, basically, work my butt off for six, seven months, build for five, six months, run out of money, repeat.

00:42:36.420 I did that for five years because there is, at this time, there is no financing for off-grid houses.

00:42:43.380 And what do I mean by that?

00:42:44.760 You cannot go out and go to a bank and get a standard construction or home loan for off-grid building.

00:42:53.380 I know a couple people who have done it, but they own ranches.

00:42:57.720 They have a viable, fairly good-sized ranching business already established on the property, and the bank loaned them the money for their house, which was going to be off-grid.

00:43:10.020 I only know of two instances of that in the country.

00:43:13.720 So cash.

00:43:17.060 Cash is king.

00:43:18.540 You're going to have to bring money to this adventure, and I always recommend you buy your land cash.

00:43:24.620 Don't finance your land.

00:43:26.160 You know, don't have that debt just in case something goes wrong, and you decide not to do it.

00:43:32.160 You don't have another payment thrown on top of it.

00:43:35.080 You know what I mean?

00:43:36.100 And that sounds a little difficult, and I've got some pushback on that.

00:43:39.500 But most of the people I know, we've all bought our land cash in the beginning.

00:43:44.540 And then you just do it step by step.

00:43:47.220 You can live in your RV.

00:43:48.120 That's what I did.

00:43:48.940 I lived in my RV, and I just built my house as I went.

00:43:52.440 I could not get my RV up here.

00:43:54.260 I thought I could.

00:43:55.300 I made a tactical error.

00:43:57.520 My roads are really brutal, both sides of my property.

00:44:01.360 So I could not get an RV up here.

00:44:03.060 If I could, I was going to tear it up, and I wouldn't be able to get it back out.

00:44:06.460 So I lived in a park for like $300 a month.

00:44:09.240 That was it.

00:44:10.400 And that's what a lot of people do, though.

00:44:11.740 They'll just buy an RV, and they'll bring it on their property, and they'll live in their RV as they build their house.

00:44:17.940 Or a yurt.

00:44:19.000 I know people do yurts, too.

00:44:21.080 All right.

00:44:21.440 So yeah, this is a process.

00:44:23.100 It's not something you can just do.

00:44:24.320 It's one and done.

00:44:25.720 So okay, besides talking about off-grid living, part of your business, part of what you're doing with your work is try to encourage, help people simplify their life in general.

00:44:34.780 Yeah.

00:44:34.920 And one way that you've done that, or help people simplify their life, you urge people, or you recommend people get completely off social media.

00:44:43.660 Why have you done that?

00:44:44.720 What have you found the benefits of getting off social media?

00:44:48.380 Oh, the social media can of worms.

00:44:50.920 Here we go.

00:44:52.140 One of my favorite things to talk about.

00:44:55.040 The easiest way, when I was in the government, social media was fairly new.

00:45:00.440 And I told people, the only time I used it was to find criminals or people I couldn't find to interview.

00:45:07.500 That was the only, because every moron was on social media, even back then.

00:45:11.400 I couldn't find a guy.

00:45:12.580 I would just go look on social media.

00:45:14.500 Guy had hidden himself, you know, made sure he wasn't getting mailed to any address.

00:45:18.600 Jump on social media, I could find the fool.

00:45:21.140 It's just stupidity.

00:45:22.800 Especially for criminals.

00:45:24.020 Ah, just dumb.

00:45:25.320 I just, I always said, we only caught the stupid ones.

00:45:28.460 But social media, to me, is highly toxic.

00:45:33.120 And it's something that I tell people, I go, what's the benefit?

00:45:37.460 How is it benefiting your life?

00:45:39.820 And every time I get a blank stare back, and I go, how much time do you spend a day on it?

00:45:45.920 Hours.

00:45:46.940 Hours.

00:45:48.100 And it's wasting time.

00:45:50.100 And when you waste time like that, you're stealing from your own life.

00:45:53.980 Because that's time you cannot get back.

00:45:55.820 And I look at that, I did a podcast on wasting time and wasting other people's time.

00:46:01.220 And I call it a form of theft.

00:46:03.100 Because we only have so much time on this planet.

00:46:05.900 So every time someone wastes your time, you waste their time, or you waste your own time,

00:46:10.120 you're basically stealing life.

00:46:12.060 That's what you're doing.

00:46:12.880 And so for me, I just look at social media, and it's built that way.

00:46:19.680 And plus, I have a huge problem of people who follow me know with the creators of social media.

00:46:25.300 They're not very good people.

00:46:26.980 And I'm being nice by saying that.

00:46:29.680 They're sociopaths.

00:46:30.840 I mean, their whole goal was never to create a platform for you to communicate and exercise your First Amendment rights.

00:46:39.640 They built these platforms in order to data mine you.

00:46:45.380 That's what social media's primary function is, data mining.

00:46:50.300 The more data points they have on you, the more money they can make selling it, it works for their –

00:46:57.300 Why would you create something completely for free, have people invest billions and billions of dollars in it to keep it free?

00:47:06.620 That's not a business model.

00:47:08.860 These guys always knew, because they all come from the tech world, it was about data.

00:47:14.680 Data.

00:47:15.560 That's what these are for.

00:47:17.100 Once you kind of realize that you're the product of social media –

00:47:22.900 And see, I'm lucky.

00:47:23.940 By not using it – I do use Twitter here and there.

00:47:26.120 I told you.

00:47:26.940 Buddy sucked me back onto it.

00:47:29.140 But we have a group.

00:47:30.020 I spend very little time, maybe 15, 20 minutes a month.

00:47:36.120 It's just one of those things where I don't get advertising like other people do.

00:47:39.680 I don't get spammed like other people do.

00:47:41.660 And they go, how do you do that?

00:47:42.460 I go, I'm not on social media.

00:47:44.220 I go, where do you think that information is going?

00:47:45.980 They're selling it.

00:47:47.820 You are literally giving away your most sensitive data and intimate details for free.

00:47:54.880 And you're making these idiots filthy, filthy rich.

00:47:59.800 That's all social media is.

00:48:01.360 Once you get to that point, it takes on a whole new meaning.

00:48:05.020 And I've actually gotten several, several – I mean, I've lost count of people off social media.

00:48:11.200 And they come back and talk to me and they go, wow, my life, way better.

00:48:16.940 And I go, exactly.

00:48:17.880 And we also know the algorithms on social media are devised to cause drama.

00:48:22.700 They're meant to get people to battle each other.

00:48:25.140 And there's even bots and trolls and I can't prove it.

00:48:29.640 But I'm pretty confident that all these social media companies have little mills overseas that literally go on and cause drama, getting people to react to things on purpose.

00:48:43.560 I don't know.

00:48:44.120 Does that sound healthy to you, Brett?

00:48:46.180 Does that sound like something you should invest your wife in?

00:48:48.380 Sounds like a recipe for mental illness.

00:48:51.620 I mean, so –

00:48:52.060 It is.

00:48:52.440 It's already been proven.

00:48:53.460 Right.

00:48:53.920 Yeah.

00:48:54.460 I mean, we've had people on the podcast before talking about the danger of social media.

00:48:58.560 You know, like Cal Newport.

00:49:00.000 And, you know, he's a big proponent of like not being on social media and this idea of deep work.

00:49:04.520 And then whenever we have these podcasts, people always go, well, I got an online business.

00:49:08.180 How am I supposed to promote my online business if I'm not on social media?

00:49:13.480 And it seems like you're doing okay without being on social media.

00:49:16.400 Well, I'm an overnight success that took a decade.

00:49:20.000 People look at me and – and that's why I write the Simple Life books.

00:49:24.640 I just put out 14 Habits and I'm going to be doing an entrepreneur book about – and I remember probably three, four years ago, I was talking to a marketing friend of mine.

00:49:33.740 And he was questioning me and he is now getting off social media.

00:49:38.020 I said, you watch.

00:49:39.620 I go, I'm going to prove that you can build a successful business without social media.

00:49:44.820 I'm going to prove it.

00:49:45.620 Is it easy?

00:49:47.580 Nope.

00:49:48.120 Is it a lot harder?

00:49:49.480 Yep.

00:49:50.100 Is it the right way to do it?

00:49:51.780 Yep.

00:49:52.380 Because you own your customer.

00:49:54.040 And I don't mean own you.

00:49:55.740 But you own their information.

00:49:57.620 I tell people, I go, if you come to me and my website and my business and my following that I've built, well, I'm not mining your data.

00:50:07.720 You know, I'm not sending you ads.

00:50:10.040 You come to me, I've built this relationship.

00:50:13.820 And it's not built on a proxy through social media.

00:50:17.000 I call it the place for lost souls.

00:50:19.060 And I have many friends who literally built their entire business on social media who are getting their butt handed to them right now.

00:50:26.100 Because you don't own the information.

00:50:28.600 And a couple of them have gotten booted off for running ads.

00:50:32.960 And if you don't own it, you can't control it.

00:50:37.120 And that's why I got off YouTube even.

00:50:39.060 And people were like, your YouTube channel is doing pretty good.

00:50:41.100 So, I went, you know what, A, I hated doing the videos.

00:50:44.140 They're a pain to do.

00:50:45.480 And I'm not comfortable with people being a voyeur into my life.

00:50:49.840 Yeah, it's my choice whether I want to do it or not.

00:50:51.920 I'm choosing not to do it.

00:50:53.560 So, I built my company basically on doing interviews.

00:50:56.800 So, I've been doing interviews since I first started on podcast, radio.

00:51:02.020 And that's what I've done.

00:51:03.060 I built it purely old school.

00:51:05.420 And then I speak.

00:51:06.940 I do live speaking events.

00:51:09.380 And I built it the right way, the slow way.

00:51:14.000 And I teach that as well.

00:51:15.640 And I know you talk about a real business doesn't happen overnight.

00:51:20.320 It takes a lot of time.

00:51:22.220 And you have to build it.

00:51:23.900 And you don't even know if it's going to work for like five years.

00:51:26.920 You know, you have no idea.

00:51:28.800 It's hard.

00:51:30.060 But if you want the quick fix and you want to run on social media,

00:51:32.920 you're going to get a lot of really bad customers is what you're going to get.

00:51:36.740 And you're going to get a lot of people who complain.

00:51:39.380 That's what I've noticed.

00:51:40.560 They're just searching around.

00:51:41.620 I don't want someone to come find the simple life or my going off the grid books who's in

00:51:45.940 between searching, you know, watching, looking at cat pictures and videos and posting what

00:51:51.340 they ate for breakfast.

00:51:52.940 That's not the person I want.

00:51:54.820 You know, I want the person who really wants to change.

00:51:58.020 Not just surfing and is bored and comes across what I'm doing.

00:52:03.180 You know what I mean?

00:52:03.700 Right.

00:52:04.500 No, that idea that, you know, you, you, people, when they create a business,

00:52:08.600 there's entirely relying on social media.

00:52:11.580 Like I know some people who'd like their whole audience is like, you know, or it is on Instagram

00:52:15.300 or it's just Facebook or it's just Twitter.

00:52:17.680 Like I tell you, you don't own your business.

00:52:19.660 Like Facebook owns your business.

00:52:21.400 And like Nicholas Carr, he's a technology critic who wrote several books.

00:52:25.340 Like one's the shallows.

00:52:26.540 He calls this, you know, people who have businesses on other platforms that they don't own.

00:52:30.940 He calls them digital sharecroppers.

00:52:33.200 Yep.

00:52:33.460 It's like, you think you own the thing, but you don't.

00:52:36.680 Like the, the guy in charge can, they can kick you off and they're taking a big cut of

00:52:41.100 the money you could be making.

00:52:42.600 So like, don't try to avoid that.

00:52:44.520 We've talked a lot about some of the biggest things you got to look at when you're, you're

00:52:47.960 going off grid about simplifying your life.

00:52:49.900 Where can people go to learn more about your work?

00:52:52.760 Yeah.

00:52:53.180 It's my website, thesimplelifenow.com.

00:52:57.040 Don't go to the simple life.

00:52:59.040 You'll probably end up at Nicole Ritchie and Paris Hilton's old website.

00:53:03.500 Forgot about that.

00:53:04.680 Oh yeah.

00:53:05.020 But my website, my podcast, Your Better Life.

00:53:08.600 And you know, the best way to stay in touch is sign up for the Simple Life Insider Circle.

00:53:13.820 You know, that's how everyone, I keep, I like everyone.

00:53:16.960 We're, we're a group.

00:53:17.920 I like it that way.

00:53:18.940 You know, small, intimate, but my website's the easiest way.

00:53:22.140 Everything is, everything is on there.

00:53:24.600 Fantastic.

00:53:24.980 Well, Gary Collins, thanks for your time.

00:53:26.200 It's been a pleasure.

00:53:27.220 Thanks a lot, Brett.

00:53:27.940 I appreciate it.

00:53:29.400 My guest today was Gary Collins.

00:53:30.660 He's the author of several books on going off the grid.

00:53:33.020 There's going off the grid, living off the grid, all available on Amazon, on his website.

00:53:37.000 He also has books on simple living.

00:53:38.500 You'll also find out more information about his work at his website, thesimplelifenow.com.

00:53:42.400 Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash offgrid.

00:53:45.140 We find links to resources where we delve deeper into this topic.

00:53:47.660 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast.

00:53:57.500 Check out our website at artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles we've written over the years about pretty much anything you can think of.

00:54:04.260 And if you'd like to enjoy ad-free episodes of the AOM podcast, you can do so on Stitcher Premium.

00:54:08.560 Head over to stitcherpremium.com, sign up, use code manliness at checkout for a free month trial.

00:54:12.860 Once you're signed up, download the Stitcher app on Android or iOS, and you can start enjoying ad-free episodes of the AOM podcast.

00:54:18.200 And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate if you take one minute to give us a review on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher.

00:54:22.400 It helps that a lot.

00:54:23.080 And if you've done that already, thank you.

00:54:24.340 Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you would think would get something out of it.

00:54:28.260 As always, thanks for the continued support.

00:54:29.840 Until next time, it's Brett McKay.

00:54:31.000 Remind you not to listen to the AOM podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

A Guide to Getting Off the Grid

Episode Stats

Misogynist Sentences

Hate Speech Sentences

Summary

Transcript