The Art of Manliness - A Playbook for Modern Dating

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast

00:00:10.960 dating is a relatively recent phenomenon in human history given that it shouldn't come as a surprise

00:00:16.140 that many people aren't sure of the best way to go about it especially since the rise of modern

00:00:20.180 technology and dating apps has made an already murky landscape even more confusing if you feel

00:00:24.980 like you can use some expert research-backed guidance navigating this world enter today's guest

00:00:29.420 logan yuri logan is behavioral scientist turned dating coach the director of relationship science

00:00:33.820 for the hinge dating app and the author of how to not die alone the surprising science that will help

00:00:38.600 you find love today on the show logan explains the three dating tendencies and the three types of

00:00:43.000 attachment styles that can influence and potentially sabotage your ability to get into healthy

00:00:47.080 relationships logan then gets into how to design a good first date and what to tell the other person

00:00:51.140 if the date doesn't go well rather than ghosting them she also makes the case for why you shouldn't

00:00:55.160 be over-reliant on feeling the proverbial spark when deciding whether to see someone again we

00:00:59.360 end our conversation with tips on breaking up with someone you've been dating for a while

00:01:02.620 after the show's over check out our show notes at aom.is dating

00:01:05.880 all right logan yuri welcome to the show thank you so much for having me so you got a book called

00:01:25.320 how to not die alone the surprising science that will help you find love so you are a behavioral

00:01:32.500 scientist who became a dating coach i think you're the first behavioral scientist slash dating coach

00:01:38.580 i've met how did that happen oh thank you yes i i like to defy expectations well i've always had these

00:01:46.920 two interests i've had this interest in psychology behavioral science which is the study of how we make

00:01:53.720 decisions and then i've had this second interest in sex dating love relationships and so at different

00:02:00.900 points in my life i've been able to pursue them in different ways but i had the opportunity to take

00:02:08.380 what i've done in the field of behavioral science and apply it to love and dating and that's what i've

00:02:13.040 been doing for the last i don't know almost a decade approaching a decade and so it's basically like

00:02:18.600 why are people not getting into relationships it's because they're making poor decisions along the way

00:02:24.120 they're not putting themselves out there they're dating the wrong people they're prioritizing the

00:02:29.080 wrong things they are not going on the second date when they should they're marrying the wrong person

00:02:34.460 and so how can i break relationships down into these tiny decisions well they're not tiny but

00:02:39.880 these decisions that occur over a lifetime and then how can i actually help people make better decisions

00:02:45.900 by telling them what their blind spots are what's affecting their decision making and how they should

00:02:51.520 consider that decision instead fantastic so you start the book talking about the fact that a lot of people

00:02:57.400 today are lamenting that dating is harder than ever i've got friends or i talked to kids who are in

00:03:02.840 their 20s they're in college they're out of college and they describe the dating scene and i'm like wow

00:03:08.380 that's i don't know anything about that that sounds terrible why does dating feel harder than ever and

00:03:15.020 like i mean what's changed in the past like you know say 20 years that makes it more difficult

00:03:19.400 yeah so dating as we know it is actually a pretty new concept so dating in terms of i as an individual

00:03:26.400 find the person who i want to be with that concept has only been around since around the 1890s before

00:03:32.080 that either there was a matchmaker or your parents would arrange your marriage you know you would marry

00:03:37.280 the person with the land next door so that your parcels of land could be connected and so my first thought

00:03:42.340 i really want to leave people with is if you feel like dating is unnatural that's because it is we are

00:03:48.920 not born knowing how to date yes we are born knowing how to love yes love is natural but dating is

00:03:54.740 relatively new in the span of human history then you think about online dating and online dating even just

00:04:00.440 using a basic website started around 1994 1995 and then these swiping apps started about 10 years ago and so

00:04:08.760 everything that we're experiencing is really a seismic shift in the span of human history so some things

00:04:16.440 about dating right now are easier if you are in what's called a thin market where it's hard for you

00:04:22.000 to find someone so this could be over 50 lgbtq plus community or living in a rural area online dating has

00:04:30.240 definitely helped you because you don't have to go to a bar and say who here is looking for someone like

00:04:36.400 me you know you just know who those people are but in other ways dating has become really hard

00:04:41.960 one of the reasons is this idea of the paradox of choice and this is a concept from the professor

00:04:48.120 barry schwartz who says that while we're drawn to choice many times having too many options is

00:04:53.780 actually really stressful for us because we don't know what to choose we fear we're making the wrong

00:04:58.820 choice and then even when we choose we feel regret oh did i did i mess that one up and so there are

00:05:04.780 many options in modern dating there's also a lot of pressure on us to get it right i wonder if this

00:05:11.460 is what you hear with your listeners but there's this feeling of this is the most important decision

00:05:15.720 i'll ever make i really only get one shot at choosing the right partner i don't get support from

00:05:22.660 a religious figure or a matchmaker or my family this is something that falls on me and so we have more

00:05:27.940 freedom we have more chance to express ourselves as individuals but that also means that when you're

00:05:35.000 writing your own story and you don't like that story you only have yourself to blame okay so it

00:05:40.940 sounds like the why dating is hard it all comes down to choice and this is where behavioral science

00:05:45.580 comes in because it's behavioral science is all about making choices exactly all right so when you

00:05:50.480 first sit down with a client dating coach client the first step you do is you help them figure out

00:05:56.620 what their dating tendency is you know there's three types you list out in the book what are these

00:06:01.120 dating tendencies and how can knowing your dating tendency help you become more effective in your

00:06:06.320 romantic life this is something that i developed through working with clients where i was like okay i'm

00:06:13.120 having all these clients from different countries different walks of life different ages but

00:06:17.080 they have this thing in common they they all have these unrealistic expectations and so i took that

00:06:23.180 knowledge of working with clients i developed it into this framework which is also a quiz called the

00:06:28.620 three dating tendencies and now i use that to help people who read my book and i still use it with

00:06:35.280 clients so the first tendency is the romanticizer and they have unrealistic expectations of relationships

00:06:42.880 so this is the friend of yours or maybe it's you who says i love love i really want that romantic

00:06:49.240 how we met story i don't want to meet someone online that's not romantic and they have this

00:06:53.740 view in their head that there's a soulmate one person out there for them when they meet them they'll

00:06:59.440 just know if it clicks and if it's the right person then the relationship will be easy and if the

00:07:05.820 relationship is hard well then clearly it's not the right person and so for the romanticizer the work is

00:07:11.580 really around demystifying relationships look i don't believe there's one person out there for you i think

00:07:17.540 there's a lot of different persons different people who you could have a great relationship with

00:07:21.480 some have certain pros and cons others have certain pros and cons you get to decide what matters to you

00:07:27.520 and you can make different good choices with a number of people and so for them it's about getting

00:07:33.780 rid of this idea of the one or the soulmate and helping them understand who cares how you met that's

00:07:39.460 not what makes a relationship romantic what makes a relationship romantic is putting in the work

00:07:43.780 seeing results growing with someone building a family designing the life you like learning how

00:07:51.420 to have hard conversations continuing to have sex with a person and hopefully the sex gets better all

00:07:57.480 of that is what's romantic so the next one is the maximizer and i have to say this is many of the

00:08:02.260 clients that i have and i i bet it's many of the people who listen to the show so the maximizer is the

00:08:07.540 person who has unrealistic expectations of their partner and so they have this idea in their head

00:08:13.840 that they can find the perfect person they just have to keep looking and so this person is obsessed

00:08:19.000 with research if they're going on a trip they're going to read the yelp reviews and the trip advisor

00:08:23.400 reviews if they're buying camping gear they're going to go to wire cutter and find the perfect ultra

00:08:29.040 light tent that you know can fit one person or 10 person whatever it is and so when they apply

00:08:34.300 that concept to dating they feel like oh i just haven't met the perfect person yet i have to keep

00:08:38.940 looking and so my work with the maximizer is helping them understand that it's not about finding the

00:08:44.240 perfect person it's about finding a great person and then building a relationship with them and that

00:08:50.660 this story in their head that if they just keep looking one day that person will appear isn't true

00:08:55.220 they likely have already dated someone who would make a great partner and the work is actually finding

00:09:00.640 that person committing to them and building something not waiting around for someone who

00:09:04.660 could be five percent hotter or five percent more ambitious and a point you make with the maximizer is

00:09:10.420 the solution isn't to settle a lot of people think why he's got to settle you're not saying that you

00:09:15.120 don't need to settle and just kind of just accept whatever it's just don't try to over optimize

00:09:19.540 because then you'll never find somebody yeah that said really well it's not about settling i feel

00:09:24.760 like settling has become this toxic word in our society where it's if you're somebody who cares or

00:09:29.400 someone who's passionate or someone with goals settling is the opposite of what you want to do

00:09:33.760 and no i don't like settling either so there's this really great word called satisficing and this is

00:09:39.780 also coined by barry schwartz the professor that i mentioned before and what i love about this word

00:09:45.000 is i think it does something really smart to shift our mindset from oh settling equals bad to

00:09:50.660 satisfying satisficing equals good and so what satisficing is it's i set a bar i set a benchmark and it can be a

00:09:58.540 high bar but when i achieve that bar i stop looking and so for example if you're looking for a car you

00:10:05.840 could say i want to find a used hybrid with no more than 20 000 miles that doesn't cost more than

00:10:14.400 twenty thousand dollars and i want to be able to get it in the next month and then you look and when you

00:10:21.700 find that car you say great i found it now i'm going to buy it you don't sit around maximizing saying

00:10:26.840 well 20 000 miles might be too much or well should i just wait until the 2023 models are out here you

00:10:33.620 said i had a standard i met it now i'm going to take this opportunity and move forward with it and

00:10:40.040 so satisficers do have high bars but when they achieve that high bar they commit to it whereas

00:10:45.840 maximizers even when they make a choice they're always wondering what else could i have done and so

00:10:50.860 how this applies to dating is that you can have high standards but when you meet someone like that

00:10:56.060 invest in the relationship commit to them don't find that person and say hmm you know i really like

00:11:01.700 trail running and she's just not into it could i find someone just like her except plus trail running

00:11:07.380 well you also you bring in this idea of optimal stopping theory to help you overcome maximizing

00:11:12.960 there's a concept called the secretary problem and i learned about this through the book algorithms to

00:11:19.780 live by the secretary problem is based on this line of mathematical inquiry called optimal stop theory

00:11:28.180 and so basically that's a fancy way of saying when you're making a decision what's the right point

00:11:33.200 where you should actually choose and stop looking and so the example that they give is imagine that

00:11:40.000 you're hiring a secretary and you have 100 possible candidates and you have to go through them

00:11:47.040 one at a time and after each one say yes or no and you don't want to go through all 100 because

00:11:52.780 what if the last person isn't very good and that's the only person you can hire and it takes time every

00:11:58.320 you know every person that you interview is you not having that admin who's starts working for you

00:12:03.720 but you also don't want to choose too early because you haven't seen what's out there and so there is a

00:12:08.620 mathematically correct answer to this which is that you should interview one third of the candidates so 33 of the

00:12:15.740 candidates then you say who was the single best person from this first third that person is now your benchmark

00:12:23.200 the next time that you find someone who's as good or better than that first best candidate from the first third

00:12:30.640 you hire that person and so you go through a third you see who's out there create a benchmark

00:12:35.680 and then you hire the next person who's like that and with dating you can say all right well i definitely don't know

00:12:41.700 how many people in my life i'm going to date there's nothing like 100 candidates but you might say i think

00:12:47.580 i'm going to date from the age of 18 to 40 and so what would be a third of my way through that age range

00:12:56.420 and you would say it's about 26.1 years old so you'd say by the time i'm 26 i would have already met

00:13:04.480 someone who's my meaningful benchmark the next time i find someone who's as good or better than that

00:13:10.300 person in terms of how much i like them i will commit to that person and so when people hear me say this they get

00:13:16.500 stressed because they say i'm older than 26 and have i missed out and should i go tell my ex-girlfriend that i love

00:13:22.280 her and it's no it's it's not so literal it's a concept that says you've likely already met someone great

00:13:28.460 and the next time you find someone great invest in them don't keep looking because there are so many people

00:13:34.600 that knock on my door at 43 44 45 who are like i just kept looking and i thought the perfect person

00:13:41.100 would appear but turns out i did date a lot of great people i just didn't commit to them and now

00:13:47.140 it's even harder to find someone all right so we talked about romanticizer maximizer what's the third

00:13:52.120 one sure the third one is a hesitator and there are many hesitators right now during the pandemic and

00:13:58.240 hesitators are people who say i'm just not ready to date they have unrealistic expectations of

00:14:04.600 themselves they think i'll be eligible to date i'll be lovable when you know i lose 10 pounds i get a

00:14:11.980 better job i clean up my apartment i finally move cities and so they're always creating this excuse why

00:14:17.520 they're just not dateable yet when the truth is that no one's ever a hundred percent ready for anything

00:14:22.700 including dating and so for the hesitator it's about the idea of stop waiting and start dating

00:14:29.000 set a deadline for when you're going to start dating maybe three weeks from now and hold yourself

00:14:33.800 accountable to it or get a friend to do that take some pictures for your online dating profile get some

00:14:38.920 feedback think of some good first date questions some first date activities and just get out there

00:14:43.840 and there's really two reasons why it's so critical to start this one is the only way to get better at

00:14:49.560 dating is by dating and two the only way to figure out who you want to be with what kind of person

00:14:55.340 makes you happiest long term is by actually dating different people and seeing what side of you they

00:15:00.340 bring out and you can also see hesitators within a relationship there's like couples who've been

00:15:05.480 dating for years and they've been talking about marriage but then it's like well we got to wait until

00:15:09.680 you know we both have jobs and we can have a house and then they end up never getting married even

00:15:15.880 that it's something they want yeah i hadn't thought about it that way but i think the concept of a

00:15:20.220 hesitator can really apply in many places i've done some interviews with entrepreneurs where i apply the

00:15:25.800 three dating tendencies to business and the hesitator is the person who says well i want to start a clean

00:15:31.860 energy startup but first i have to get a master's degree in energy then i have to interview 100 people

00:15:39.620 who work in this space then i have to network with this and it's like instead of just starting and

00:15:44.660 learning by going and being willing to make mistakes they create this perfect future scenario

00:15:50.560 in which they'll be ready and it's much better to be the person who's in the arena practicing making

00:15:56.940 mistakes and learning than the person who's always creating an excuse about why doing something in the

00:16:01.960 future will be better so those are the three dating tendencies another thing you do with your clients

00:16:06.400 is you try to figure help them figure out their attachment style and this is from the world of

00:16:10.640 psychology or social psychology how can understanding your attachment style help you in your relationships

00:16:16.600 so this is something that's really really based in research this is not something that somebody made up

00:16:22.640 this is based on years of developmental psychology research going back to a professor named john

00:16:28.620 bolby and the idea here is that in our childhood we develop different attachment styles to our primary

00:16:36.100 caregiver and they've been able to trace those attachment styles to actually adult romantic relationships

00:16:43.580 and that's what i'll focus on right now and so there's three styles one of them is the anxiously

00:16:50.120 attached dater this is the person who fears that they're going to be abandoned so they feel like

00:16:57.900 if you go to a bar and you don't text them you must have met someone else and you're not interested

00:17:03.420 and they get very triggered and they get very worried that you're going to leave them and so

00:17:09.280 they go into this kind of danger zone and once they're in that danger zone they do something called

00:17:16.320 protest behavior so they might call you a hundred times send you 15 angry texts they might threaten to

00:17:22.680 leave they are basically acting out because they feel activated or triggered and they want you to make

00:17:28.380 them feel better and say no no no i was just you know there was bad wi-fi or bad service at the bar

00:17:34.540 and this person always wants to be in touch because they're afraid that you're going to leave them

00:17:38.580 then there's somebody called the avoidant attachment style these are people who are afraid that they're

00:17:45.460 going to be smothered they feel like whenever they're dating someone that person takes up all their free

00:17:49.940 time takes up their space they don't have time to be an individual and so the avoidant attached

00:17:54.800 person is constantly concerned with pushing people away this is the person who says i just don't have

00:17:59.480 time to date i need to focus on work and you know she slept over but she wouldn't leave in the morning

00:18:04.540 and i just wanted her out of my apartment right it's like they are just feel constricted and they want

00:18:08.840 to push that person away and then a securely attached person they're sort of the heroes of this

00:18:14.440 they are the best of both so they're comfortable with intimacy but they're also comfortable with

00:18:20.080 independence and they know how to have boundaries but they also know how to get close to someone

00:18:27.300 and so when you look at the numbers around 50 percent of daters are securely attached but when

00:18:35.780 you're out there dating it doesn't feel like that and the reason is that securely attached people are

00:18:42.040 really good at getting into partnerships and so they're actually out of the dating pool and they're

00:18:46.400 in relationships and what you have are the anxious and avoidant people dating each other this is

00:18:54.180 really problematic because they reinforce each other's worst habits the anxiously attached person

00:18:59.940 thinks whenever i date someone they pull away and the avoidant attached person thinks whenever i date

00:19:04.860 someone they smother me and so they are actually doing those exact things to each other in what we call

00:19:10.120 the anxious avoidant loop and often the work that i do with people is help them understand oh you are

00:19:16.140 anxiously attached you are obsessed with the chase you get angry when someone's not in touch and you

00:19:22.500 worry that they're going to abandon you once you decide you like someone you put them on a pedestal

00:19:27.520 and you think that they're perfect and you avoid red flags and by helping them understand these habits

00:19:33.060 they can stop dating avoidant people they can start looking for a securely attached partner and they can

00:19:40.880 work on their own triggers so that next time something like this happens they can actually help

00:19:45.960 themselves before they go into that danger zone and start with all that protest behavior yeah just

00:19:52.200 yeah it's good to know your attachment style because then you can figure out if i need to go to therapy

00:19:56.140 to help me like be less neurotic about people i'm connected with or to be less avoidant that can go a long

00:20:02.920 way yeah it's i mean i'm talking about a lot of frameworks here but the whole point is know who you are

00:20:09.920 know where you thrive know where you tend to get caught up understand the premise it's helpful to

00:20:17.460 have a term for it and then do something about it so if you know that you're an anxiously attached

00:20:22.320 dater who loves the chase who tends to date avoidant people then learn what an avoidant person looks like

00:20:28.140 and next time that happens say no i'm not going down this path again i am not making the same decision i know

00:20:33.600 where this ends i am going to make a different choice which is hanging up that relationship and

00:20:40.260 pursuing somebody who's more securely attached okay so one of the problems that people have when

00:20:46.460 they're dating is that they think they know what they want in a partner and i think this applies to

00:20:50.760 other domains too like oftentimes we think we know what we want in a job or even a car or a house

00:20:56.000 but when we find that partner that has those qualities uh that we think we want sometimes we still feel

00:21:02.540 dissatisfied with a relationship so the question is like do we really know what we want and how do we

00:21:08.180 figure out like what we actually will like in a partner or in a relationship yeah so i love the way

00:21:15.460 you explain that premise which is that in general people think that their preferences are consistent so

00:21:21.880 they think if you showed me any number of menus that had the same items on them even if they were

00:21:28.580 displayed in different ways i would choose the same thing or i would always get this bottle of wine or i would

00:21:34.060 always prefer this movie and we just know from behavioral science research that that's not true

00:21:39.060 our decisions are heavily impacted by the environment in which we make them and so what that means is

00:21:45.520 you could make a different choice about food if the menu presents it differently you could make a different

00:21:51.220 choice about wine if you're in a different type of grocery store and when it comes to dating

00:21:55.380 you make different choices based on how the app presents the person how the person presents

00:22:01.580 themselves etc and so when people come to me for dating coaching sometimes they say

00:22:06.400 oh i actually don't need help figuring out what i want i know exactly what i want i just need your help

00:22:13.120 finding this person and then they tell me about their spreadsheets of all the different people

00:22:17.800 they've dated and they figured out exactly what they want and it's usually some combination

00:22:21.380 of height weight certain type of graduate degree certain income you know it depends on who i'm

00:22:29.240 talking to but they have this very precise image of their head and they feel like the only thing

00:22:33.780 holding them back is that they haven't met that person yet and so i really like to switch things up and

00:22:38.380 say it's possible that the kind of person who's going to make you happiest long term is not like this

00:22:45.140 person and you could meet someone exactly like this and it wouldn't work out because they could bring

00:22:50.380 out a sad side of you they could not be that supportive they could make you feel self-conscious

00:22:59.200 because they're so accomplished you have this image in your head of who you should be with but

00:23:03.280 it doesn't mean that that's actually who will make you happy long term and so i try to encourage people

00:23:09.020 to really be more open-minded and date like a scientist and that means dating different types of people

00:23:15.760 seeing what side of you that person brings out and actually be willing to embrace a different type

00:23:21.540 of person no you you make the point that i like how you describe it's like you want to look for a

00:23:26.100 life partner not a prom date but typically when we ask like what do we want in a potential romantic

00:23:30.920 partner we describe the prom date so they're good looking they're popular they've got a lot of status

00:23:37.000 uh they have a lot of money but you know that might give you some satisfaction in the short term

00:23:42.240 might be a great date but might not be a great long-term partner so instead you should be looking

00:23:45.880 at things like you know do you get along well are they kind uh are they emotionally stable can you have

00:23:51.920 a discussion about hard things like those are the things that will give you long-term satisfaction

00:23:56.280 in a relationship exactly and i feel like somebody listening could be like yeah that's obvious of course you

00:24:02.180 should do that but no i'm telling you when i work with people and they bring relationships to me or tell

00:24:07.100 me about people they've dated in the past they really are prioritizing the wrong thing and so this is

00:24:11.640 the idea that a lot of us are dating quote-unquote the prom date and like think back to who you went to

00:24:18.720 prom with or who you wanted to go to prom with and i can tell you for myself it's you know somebody

00:24:22.520 who's attractive would be fun would dance the night away with and maybe you want to hook up with them at the

00:24:29.620 end of the night you're not thinking about are they reliable are they going to pick our kids up from

00:24:33.460 the dentist can i depend on them no you're just thinking about fun in the moment and it's fine

00:24:39.500 to go to the prom with someone like that but when you're 35 years old and you're dating you need to

00:24:44.200 move past the prom date and you need to move to what i call the life partner and this is someone who's

00:24:48.860 going to be reliable who's you can make hard decisions with who you trust who you can take turns

00:24:56.740 having issues and the other person is going to take care of you and so if you are listening to

00:25:01.740 this and you're still dating the prom date it's time to make a conscious shift towards finding

00:25:08.140 a long-term partner and not just a person who you want to dance the night away with we're going to

00:25:13.720 take a quick break for your words from our sponsors and now back to the show and along the lines of this

00:25:20.160 idea that you think you know what you want in a romantic partner in the abstract versus who you

00:25:26.260 actually pick and end up with you highlight research in your book from paul eastwick and

00:25:30.220 we've had him on the podcast before and he did this study with students where on the first day of

00:25:35.200 class they all gave each other ratings as to attractiveness and those scores are really

00:25:40.000 consistent i mean pretty much everyone said the same people were the most attractive or the least

00:25:45.220 attractive but then he redid the survey at the end of the semester and people's scores had

00:25:51.440 changed and it really varied it was all over the place so someone who so someone who thought one

00:25:56.540 person was not attractive at the beginning of the semester now they found them more attractive

00:26:01.080 and then someone they thought that was attractive at the beginning of the semester now they found them

00:26:05.580 less attractive so it's like their classmates attractiveness had risen and fallen as they had

00:26:10.780 gotten to know them more throughout the semester yeah i'm so glad you brought up that research

00:26:15.240 and one way that i would explain it is one of my favorite ways to spend time you know pre-pandemic

00:26:21.660 etc is going to these retreat weekends so one of my friends organizes 50 people you stay in this

00:26:27.040 amazing house in lake tahoe you cook meals together you eat together you have presentations it's kind of

00:26:33.080 an unconference and if you lined up all 50 people the first day of the conference and you had to

00:26:39.680 rank them in order of attractiveness people would probably have similar answers we all would say

00:26:46.020 you know this type of person's more attractive than that luckily we don't do anything like this but

00:26:49.920 theoretically by the end of the weekend if i said to you who did you find the most attractive or who

00:26:55.420 did you like the most the answers would differ because it would be based on oh did we cook a meal

00:27:00.240 together and talk about how actually both of our fathers passed away and we have that in common or did you

00:27:05.420 lead a hike with that person and did you admire them and so yes there's generally agreement on

00:27:11.900 attractiveness but that's just based on first impressions of physical attractiveness as you get

00:27:17.140 to know people over time different people stand out to you and so the idea there is it's not consistent

00:27:23.660 and it's super impacted by the experience of being around a person and so this is a good thing to keep

00:27:29.760 in mind there's a concept called relation shipping which is the process of dating and getting into a

00:27:36.600 relationship unfortunately many of us are now doing what's called relation shopping which is shopping

00:27:42.560 for someone as if they were a bluetooth headset that you're getting on amazon but the truth is that humans

00:27:50.580 are not searchable goods they are not items that you can put into the specs and say well this bluetooth

00:27:57.740 speaker is a little lighter but this one's a little cheaper but this one has higher volume no humans

00:28:04.140 are what's called experiential goods you have to be around us to see what it's really like and

00:28:09.500 experiential goods are things like movies or wine where one person could love it the other person could

00:28:14.400 hate it so if you actually think about oh people are different they have to be experienced to be

00:28:19.180 understood and i can't just look at one image of them and decide if i like them or not i actually have

00:28:24.260 to spend time with them and see what side of me they bring out and this is what the problem of dating apps

00:28:29.820 because whenever you download a dating app you first thing you're asking what are your preferences and

00:28:34.360 potential matches and it's typically focused on those really superficial things height weight attractiveness

00:28:40.820 college degree job etc and so as soon as you set those preferences you are immediately just eliminating

00:28:49.000 potentially thousands or tens of thousands of what could have been great romantic matches

00:28:54.800 yeah so i work at hinge my title is the director of relationship science and i am constantly doing

00:29:00.360 research into dating trends understanding what works what doesn't giving tips about dating to the

00:29:06.380 press and to users and it's so interesting that i get to do this work because you know i with my dating

00:29:12.720 coaching clients let's say i've worked with hundreds of people now at hinge i'm getting to look at

00:29:16.760 millions of people's dating habits and really seeing what the trends are and so one of the things that i

00:29:22.860 push is expanding your filters and so that might mean if you have really strict age filters maybe you don't

00:29:28.800 want to turn it off and have any age but could you make the maximum a little higher and the minimum a

00:29:34.380 little bit lower if your geography is set for one mile or five miles could you make it a little broader

00:29:42.060 and it's sort of metaphorical but it's also literal it's can you be more open-minded and can you also

00:29:47.160 open up the gates a little bit so that more people will show up on your app and then how can people use

00:29:53.260 the apps more effectively so be okay so first off broaden your filters a little more but how can you

00:29:59.260 make sure you're not just eternally swiping so my first tip is just to really invest in your profile i know

00:30:06.460 that that sounds obvious but you'd be surprised people create a dating app profile and they're like

00:30:12.040 okay i'm gonna do it i'm finally doing the apps and they just rush through the profile and they might

00:30:17.040 just use the last six photos on their phone even though they're not very good this is a huge mistake

00:30:21.940 imagine that your profile is like a billboard in times square and it's your first impression and it's

00:30:27.800 really what people are going to judge you on you would spend time on that and so when people make

00:30:33.460 changes and improve their profiles they see immediate results and so those are things like

00:30:38.200 having a really good first photo something that's clear we can see your face the lighting is good you're

00:30:44.680 not wearing sunglasses or using a filter this is just a clear picture of your face having photos that

00:30:51.100 show what your body is like so some sort of full body photo and then using your photos to tell a story

00:30:57.880 oh this is me with my family or me with my friends i have an active social life this is me cooking i

00:31:04.580 love it this is me speaking in front of an audience that's what i do for a living whatever it is it's

00:31:09.920 storytelling and having variety and so really spending time investing in your profile that's the

00:31:15.120 first major tip that i would give okay so uh be picky with your picks you also give great advice like

00:31:19.980 get friends involved you want to pick like your six best picks to put on there and then also write a

00:31:24.880 thoughtful profile let's say you do get a match how do you get the conversation going so you actually

00:31:32.360 get on a date with this person i know a lot of people at least what i've heard again this is all new

00:31:37.540 to me because i dated i met my wife in 2000 2001 oh wow so this is complete like this is all new

00:31:44.860 territory i'm trying to learn about this like my kids you know they're 11 8 and so in a couple you

00:31:50.300 know 10 years going to be dating i have no advice for them really i mean i'm some but

00:31:53.900 let's say you get a conversation i know a lot of people they just get stuck in the app just talking

00:31:58.240 to someone they never actually go on a date how do you go from app to to in-person date yeah so

00:32:05.160 one big thing that i want to leave your listeners with is this idea of asking questions and it sounds

00:32:10.080 so obvious it's like yeah of course but so many people that i speak to about dating tell me about

00:32:15.500 people who are zq zero questions and so one person oftentimes in a heterosexual coupling the woman

00:32:24.160 feels like she's asking all the questions oh um you have an interesting job how did you choose it oh

00:32:30.680 how did you wind up living in michigan what did you do and the guy's answering the questions but he's not

00:32:35.900 asking them questions back and they're just like what is this like this isn't therapy this isn't a job

00:32:40.940 interview like why are you not asking me questions back then when i talk to guys who are zq they say

00:32:46.040 oh i just thought if she had something to say she would say it or she must have found me so interesting

00:32:52.380 because uh she just kept asking me questions it's like no everybody wants to talk about themselves and

00:32:58.180 everybody wants to be asked questions and this is the number one easiest thing that you can do is

00:33:02.940 whoever you are whatever kind of person you're interested in ask questions and so on a dating app

00:33:09.340 i would say the goal of chatting is to gut check the person make sure there's someone you want to meet

00:33:16.080 and then actually get to the date as soon as possible and so you don't want to get into what i call pen

00:33:23.220 palling which is when you're going back and forth texting a bunch but then when you try to meet up

00:33:27.660 the person is you know it's not about the date it's just about texting back and forth and so you

00:33:35.680 want to chat for a while maybe you want to do a phone call or a video chat just to get a sense of

00:33:40.120 who they are the sound of their voice can you banter back and forth then you want to move to a date

00:33:45.000 and so i would ask questions i would say to them hey i'm really enjoying getting to know you do you

00:33:51.080 want to meet up in person or i'm really getting enjoying getting to know you do you want to talk on

00:33:55.740 the phone tonight something like that you want to create momentum escalate it and move off of the app

00:34:01.400 and on to texting and then on to in-person dating really as quickly as you can okay and i want to

00:34:07.520 talk to you you have some great tips on how to craft a good date first date based on behavioral

00:34:12.060 science but you're also besides you know even though you work at hinge you're a big fan of people

00:34:16.420 meeting potential romantic partners in real life in your research what are the best places to meet

00:34:22.340 potential mates in real life yeah i think the best combination is for people to be on an app

00:34:28.160 and also be looking for people out and about there's no reason why doing one of those doesn't

00:34:31.960 mean that you can't do the other so one of the ideas in my book is called the events decision matrix

00:34:37.040 and this is basically a way of saying what events should you go to and how do you prioritize them how do

00:34:42.380 you figure out what's a good use of your time and so you basically think about any potential events

00:34:48.420 and you plot them on two dimensions so one dimension is how much would you enjoy this event

00:34:54.640 and the other one is how likely are you to interact with someone at this event and so you want to really

00:35:01.180 prioritize events that fall in this corner of high likelihood of interacting with someone and high

00:35:07.040 likelihood you'll enjoy it and here's why if you really like horror movies and you go to a horror movie

00:35:14.040 marathon high likelihood you'll enjoy it low likelihood of interaction people don't usually talk

00:35:18.820 at the movies or at least they probably shouldn't if you think about a workshop of learning how to bake

00:35:26.800 but you don't like baking low likelihood of enjoying it but high likelihood of interaction people usually

00:35:32.760 talk at workshops and so you really want to find one that you'll enjoy because even if you don't meet

00:35:36.900 someone it won't feel like a waste and interaction because that's what these events are for you either

00:35:43.700 are meeting someone and talking to them or you're not and so that's my first big tip is meeting people

00:35:47.840 at events strategically the next ones are getting people to set you up by asking them explicitly making

00:35:54.380 it easy for them and maybe even offering an incentive like if they introduce you to someone and you go on a

00:35:59.600 few dates with them you're going to take them out for dinner whatever it is and other ones are

00:36:04.820 looking around your friend group is there someone that you're friends with who actually could be a great

00:36:09.500 partner how can you broach that topic just meeting people when you're out and about meeting people at an

00:36:14.760 airport in a coffee shop really just thinking about the world as having a lot of opportunities to interact

00:36:20.620 and not just saying oh dating is something that only happens on my phone

00:36:23.560 no I think that's a good point because I when I talk to a lot of young people it seems like they only do dating on the

00:36:28.600 phone and I'm like man you're you're in college you're like in a class like there's got to be people in

00:36:34.360 there that you could talk to that you know that could be a potential date why aren't you doing oh

00:36:38.360 I can't believe I would never do that it's like oh no you should do that it would totally it would

00:36:41.900 just broaden your your choices or broaden your potential romantic partners yeah totally I mean

00:36:47.720 I like to read a lot of the dating subreddits and I saw one this weekend that was talking about

00:36:53.420 this guy went to a meetup and it was a bonfire and he met all these people and he was like it was

00:36:59.020 amazing like I could tell right away if someone was interested in me if I like their smile if I like the

00:37:04.080 sound of their voice I ended up making out with this girl at the end of the night and like this

00:37:08.160 person was talking as if he'd never been to an event in person where you could potentially meet

00:37:12.780 someone and people in the comments were like where is this event how do I do more meetups like

00:37:17.820 it was seen as so revelatory and it's like no meeting in person is a great strategy because it's

00:37:23.860 basically solving a lot of problems that you have to solve more slowly on the app which is

00:37:29.520 do we have good chemistry do we feel attracted to each other can we make conversation it's almost

00:37:35.500 like that meeting is like the first date or the the half of a first date and so I think

00:37:40.800 strategically people should be doing a combination of everything you should be on a dating app because

00:37:46.080 it helps you meet more people it helps you get practice you could meet someone great there you

00:37:50.440 should also be looking around you and seeing who am I in the same room with and how can I find a way

00:37:56.380 to talk to them okay so let's say you meet someone there's a spark there's chemistry you want to ask

00:38:01.580 them on a date you ask them on a date like any tips on your experience as a coach and also from

00:38:05.820 behavioral science to like craft a really good first date yes so I will tell you that but then you also

00:38:13.260 mentioned the spark which I hope you'll ask me about yeah okay sure yeah so yeah a few quick tips for

00:38:20.660 designing a great date so one is you really want to show the person that you're putting effort in so

00:38:25.780 asking them oh where do you live is there a certain place you want to go or finding a place near them

00:38:30.240 just showing that you're really prioritizing them and putting effort in another big one is skipping

00:38:35.440 the small talk so people have these first date conversations that are like job interviews you

00:38:40.700 know where are you from where did you go to school what did you study how many siblings do you have and

00:38:44.100 it's like collecting information but it's not really having an experience and look you have plenty

00:38:48.860 of time to get that information from them later but that's not actually what creates connection or helps you

00:38:53.720 have a good time instead you should be focusing on being in the moment with them maybe being playful can

00:38:59.960 you go to a certain part of your city and try five different taco stands and get a little silly and you

00:39:07.760 have salsa dripping down your face how can you actually just be more playful more open more into being

00:39:13.240 present and having an experience with them versus sitting across from somebody in a coffee shop just

00:39:17.540 exchanging information that's not what leads to connection and then another tip is be interested

00:39:24.240 not interesting so so often my clients are like oh i need to tell this story on a date because it

00:39:30.640 makes me look cool and i want them to know that i have this fancy job blah blah blah but having a fancy

00:39:35.740 job is not what's going to make that person have fun with you what's going to make that person have fun

00:39:39.560 with you is you asking them questions you being curious you making them feel interesting and so

00:39:46.320 instead of focusing on being interesting and how you're coming across focus on being a good listener

00:39:52.320 and a good question asker and making them feel interesting one way i've heard that put is

00:39:58.240 interesting people are interested oh i like that that's a really great yeah interesting people are

00:40:04.260 interested and i i totally agree with that from my experience and then the last one is this idea of

00:40:08.480 ending on a high note so there's really great research from the behavioral economist daniel kahneman

00:40:13.600 that looks at people getting colonoscopies and so of course a colonoscopy is an uncomfortable

00:40:19.340 situation but what he found is that people would actually rather have a colonoscopy that's slightly

00:40:26.580 longer but ends in a less painful way than a shorter colonoscopy that's consistently painful throughout

00:40:36.020 and that's because our brains disproportionately remember things based on the peak moment and based

00:40:41.520 on the ending and this is called the peak end rule and so you can take advantage of it by saving a bad or

00:40:46.940 mediocre date by really ending on a high note and so you can order dessert you can give someone a

00:40:53.560 meaningful compliment you can say oh i actually have one more surprise for you and take them to a

00:40:58.020 cool secret bar that they've never heard about because people remember the ends of things more

00:41:03.520 you can save the moment with a great ending what happens is let's say you go on the date and you

00:41:08.780 didn't think it was great and they're just like you just there's no match there for whatever reason

00:41:13.260 how do you handle that because the typical response a lot of people do is is ghost but you make people

00:41:19.220 take a i will never ghost pledge in your book yeah it's like why shouldn't why shouldn't people ghost

00:41:26.400 and then like how do what what do you do i think i think a lot of people ghost because they just don't

00:41:30.380 know what to say when they think of potential like when a date just didn't go well and they don't

00:41:33.940 think there's a match yeah i've done tons of research on this at hinge and i think there's a

00:41:38.580 big disconnect around ghosting so when you ask people who ghost why they ghost they say it's really

00:41:44.420 awkward to reject someone and i don't want to hurt their feelings and then when you ask people who've

00:41:48.020 been ghosted they say i would rather that you tell me i'll feel a moment of pain and rejection but then

00:41:53.560 i can move on and so it's like somebody doesn't want to pull off the band-aid and hurt the person but

00:41:58.680 that person is saying please do that i want clarity i don't want to swim in this ambiguous sea of not

00:42:05.500 knowing if you're going to ever text me again and so if two people go on a date they don't like each

00:42:10.580 other they never text each other again i don't think that's a big deal i call that a mutual opt-out

00:42:14.700 but if we go on a date and i text you and i say hey loved meeting you when do you want to hang out

00:42:19.440 again and you never respond i just think that's hurtful and unnecessary and why why not take two minutes

00:42:25.620 to send a kind but firm text and so that could sound like hey i also enjoyed meeting you thanks

00:42:32.960 for introducing me to that cool place i don't think we're a good romantic match but i enjoyed

00:42:39.740 spending time with you and i wish you the best of luck with dating look you're not promising that

00:42:44.400 you're going to become friends you're not saying hey let's hang out again in a platonic capacity

00:42:48.260 you're just saying like i liked meeting you thank you i'm not interested and i think most people will

00:42:55.560 will accept that okay yeah fine what happens if people continue to escalate like well why what can

00:43:01.200 i do what can i change like how can we make this work i think that's what people worry about with

00:43:06.140 ghostings like i don't they can they might be able to do that initial text but then like they don't

00:43:10.060 know how to do the the potentially awkward rare follow-up yeah i have done studies on this and i would

00:43:17.300 just say like what you owe the person is clarity around how you feel about them you don't owe them

00:43:21.660 anything else you don't own them a phone call to explain what they did wrong you don't owe them

00:43:25.460 feedback that's just likely not going to work out well and i am talking about early dating obviously

00:43:29.560 if you're in a relationship with someone it should be a more intense sort of decoupling but i don't

00:43:34.940 think you have to get into it with them like if someone's like what did i do wrong and was it when i

00:43:38.780 said this like i just kind of think that's a no-win situation and so in that case i would just

00:43:44.260 not write back or i don't know i don't have the exact language but just something about like

00:43:50.560 i don't feel comfortable getting into it but that's how i feel about seeing each other again

00:43:55.600 something like that and so i think the most important thing is to not leave someone hanging

00:43:59.260 but i think beyond that you don't owe them deep feedback or an explanation and that usually doesn't

00:44:03.860 work out well so you mentioned the spark thing what would you want to say about the spark thing

00:44:10.060 my philosophy is that our society is way too anchored on initial chemistry fireworks feeling

00:44:16.840 like you show up to a date and you're love this person you've feel like you've known them your

00:44:21.540 whole life and people say to me oh i went on a date she was great i really liked her she was fun she

00:44:28.680 was interesting i'm not going to see her again i'm like what are you talking about and the person says

00:44:33.100 oh i just didn't feel the spark and so it's become this all-encompassing word that means i didn't feel

00:44:37.980 instant chemistry and so i have this concept of the three myths of the spark and so the first one is

00:44:45.220 the spark can't grow over time and that's just absolutely not true a lot of people develop

00:44:50.620 feelings for each other after a while that's why you might end up marrying someone you work with or

00:44:55.100 someone who lives in your apartment building the more you see someone the more you appreciate them

00:44:58.960 and so the spark can definitely grow over time the second myth is that if you have the spark it's

00:45:04.180 definitely a good thing that's also not true some people are just very sparky they might be

00:45:09.500 charismatic are super good looking magnetic and so you think oh there's a special spark between the

00:45:15.220 two of us but the truth is that they give many people the spark and it doesn't mean anything about

00:45:20.400 the two of you in fact a lot of people who give the spark or sparky are actually sort of narcissistic

00:45:26.440 and then the third one is that if you have a spark the relationship is viable that's also not true

00:45:32.200 many couples that are now divorced or unhappily married once had the spark and so it's enough

00:45:38.260 to maybe get into a relationship but it's not enough to keep the relationship going

00:45:42.100 gotcha okay so the spark's nice but don't be misled by it because it could take you down bad paths

00:45:48.880 exactly or misguided paths um so we we mentioned like how to end a relationship like early on

00:45:55.100 right it's like the first date second date you decide this is not a good fit you mentioned

00:45:59.880 if you're in a more intense relationship a long-term relationship that conversation you have in

00:46:05.240 ending the the relationship needs to be a little more intense any advice from behavioral science on

00:46:09.780 how to end a relationship that you just think's not going anywhere yeah it's been a very unexpected and

00:46:17.140 surprising part of my job over the last few years to do what i call breakup consulting which is just

00:46:22.700 people come to me and they say i have this huge decision to make something doesn't feel right

00:46:26.960 should i stay with this person or not and i it's a huge responsibility it's advising someone on a big

00:46:32.260 decision and it's not just them it's also the person that they're with and i have an impact on

00:46:36.180 that and so i have a series of questions that i ask them we have this thing are you a hitcher or a

00:46:41.180 ditcher a hitcher tends to stay in relationships too long a ditcher sense tends to stay in relationships

00:46:46.300 too short i ask people if your partner were a piece of clothing in your closet what would they be

00:46:52.480 and that helps me gauge do you admire this person do you like being around them are you actually sort

00:46:58.400 of sick of them and taking them for granted when it comes to actually breaking up a big part is just

00:47:03.980 holding yourself accountable and so setting a deadline being clear about when and where you're

00:47:09.420 going to do it thinking in advance about what you're going to say not having sex with that person

00:47:15.280 because that can really make things regress and make it hard to leave and then not communicating

00:47:22.480 with them after the breakup because so many people try to be quote-unquote the nice breakup guy

00:47:28.200 and be in touch but that actually makes it harder for either person to move on so you give yeah you

00:47:34.040 give kind of like a script you can it's sort of like the ghosting script but you can continue to have

00:47:38.560 that conversation when people ask like what what's going on like what happened is anything i you you owe that

00:47:43.380 person like some some explanation or some conversation but the same thing you got to be loving but firm

00:47:49.260 with the breakup absolutely yes and yeah i like how you called it a script i think that's really true

00:47:54.980 because so often we don't have hard conversations because we don't know how to start or we don't know

00:48:01.440 how to end or we don't know what to say but if you can get some basic templates or practice with a

00:48:08.220 friend or role play it becomes way less scary and i would really recommend that people keep a copy of

00:48:16.760 that anti-ghosting i'm not interested texts on their phone in their notes folder and they can just copy

00:48:21.860 and paste it or in my book i have something called the conversation planning document and this is something

00:48:27.040 i use all the time not just in relationship conversations and so the more that we can demystify

00:48:33.060 crucial conversations and you know instead of avoiding them actually tackle them head on the

00:48:38.000 better in your experience working with people is it good to get right back into the the dating scene

00:48:44.740 after a breakup it depends so some people have actually been over their relationship for a long

00:48:51.920 time while they were in it and so then the relationship ends and they're like i don't feel that sad

00:48:56.400 am i a monster why am i not sadder and it's like no you actually mourned the relationship while you

00:49:01.960 were in it and so they might be ready to get out there some people are not ready for a while and so

00:49:07.080 i'd say give yourself some time to grieve figure out how you feel put yourself back out there and

00:49:12.440 you'll see how you feel on that first date and that will give you a sense of whether or not you're

00:49:16.320 ready well logan this has been a great conversation is there any place else people can go to learn

00:49:21.260 more about the book and the work and your work yes absolutely so i teach a class it's a six-week

00:49:29.240 interactive workshop called date smarter and people can find out about that on my website i also send

00:49:36.300 out a weekly newsletter with research and tips on dating and people can find that on my website

00:49:41.620 and people can follow me on instagram and twitter at logan yuri fantastic well logan yuri thanks for

00:49:49.720 your time it's been a pleasure thank you so much my guest today was logan yuri she's the author of the

00:49:54.720 book how not to die alone it's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere make sure to check out

00:49:58.940 our website logan yuri.com where you can learn more information about our work also check out

00:50:02.640 our show notes at aom.is dating where you can find links to resources where you delve deeper into this

00:50:06.820 topic well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast make sure to check out our website at

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The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

A Playbook for Modern Dating

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