The Art of Manliness - Advice on Making Love Last . . . From a Divorce Lawyer

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.440 If you want insight on how to make love last, you might ask friends, family, a therapist,

00:00:16.200 or a pastor for advice.

00:00:17.720 You probably wouldn't think to turn to a divorce lawyer, but my guest, James Sexton, who does

00:00:22.240 that very job in New York City, says there may be few people who have a better perspective

00:00:26.100 on how to hold a marriage together than the guy who's got a front row seat to how they

00:00:29.880 fall apart.

00:00:30.880 James is the author of If You're in My Office, It's Already Too Late, A Divorce Lawyer's Guide

00:00:34.980 to Staying Together.

00:00:36.080 Today on the show, he shares what he's learned from overseeing over a thousand divorces that

00:00:39.720 you can use to reverse engineer a relationship that lasts.

00:00:42.920 We discuss the five types of infidelity James sees in his practice and the approach to marriage

00:00:46.940 that will prevent affairs.

00:00:48.280 We then get into common sources of conflict in a marriage, including sex, finances, and

00:00:52.680 kids, and how to address these issues so you never end up in James's or any other divorce

00:00:57.040 lawyer's office.

00:00:58.420 After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash stay together.

00:01:14.680 All right, James Sexton, welcome to the show.

00:01:17.280 Thanks, Brad.

00:01:17.680 It's great to be here.

00:01:18.360 I appreciate you having me.

00:01:19.180 So you are a divorce attorney and you have overseen over a thousand divorces in your

00:01:24.760 career.

00:01:25.560 That's a lot.

00:01:26.160 And I thought it was interesting in your book, you talked about how you wanted to be a divorce

00:01:30.040 attorney, even when you're in law school.

00:01:32.160 You talk about like, yeah, most people, I went to law school and most people don't go

00:01:36.200 to law school wanting to be family law or divorce attorneys.

00:01:39.540 Something you just kind of end up doing because something else didn't shake out.

00:01:42.780 Why did you want to be a divorce attorney? 0.65

00:01:44.420 Yeah, you know, it's funny.

00:01:45.500 When I went to college, I wanted to be a therapist.

00:01:49.120 I was very interested in being a therapist and I thought that would be my calling.

00:01:53.040 I wanted to help people.

00:01:54.700 I wanted to, you know, I was very interested.

00:01:56.660 I was a psychology major and an undergraduate, a minor of substance abuse counseling and East

00:02:03.960 Asian studies is what it was called at the time.

00:02:05.940 But I was focusing on like Buddhism and Japan.

00:02:08.820 And I was always very interested in that from my background in the martial arts.

00:02:11.540 And so I really had no aspiration becoming a lawyer.

00:02:14.980 When I was a kid, I wanted to become a lawyer.

00:02:16.640 I remember I watched L.A. Law.

00:02:17.900 It was like one of the few adult shows my parents would let me watch.

00:02:21.160 And I really wanted to be Victor Cifuentes.

00:02:23.540 That was Jimmy Smith's character because he was like a cool lawyer who had an earring and

00:02:27.220 a ponytail, which is kind of funny because I ended up more like Arnie Becker, who was kind

00:02:31.500 of the heel, you know, and the divorce lawyer.

00:02:33.800 Um, but I, I, I had a, when I was a little kid, being a lawyer sounded exciting to me.

00:02:38.160 Then I wanted to be a therapist.

00:02:39.380 And then when I got through undergraduate and went to graduate school, I studied sociology,

00:02:45.840 um, uh, communication and persuasion specifically.

00:02:49.340 Um, and as I was doing my doctoral work before I, I, when I'd finished my master's working my

00:02:55.180 PhD, I, um, I decided to take the LSAT.

00:02:59.580 Um, it was largely because I was teaching test prep for a company and I was teaching

00:03:04.540 SAT test prep and I could make more money if I was teaching, uh, law school admission

00:03:08.940 test LSAT prep.

00:03:10.180 And so I ended up taking the LSAT so I could get a high enough score to be able to teach

00:03:14.700 test prep for the LSAT.

00:03:16.080 I did so well that I ended up getting offered scholarships to law school and then I ended

00:03:20.100 up going to Fordham law school.

00:03:21.440 And yeah, the only law that interested me really was divorce law because it was the only one that

00:03:27.080 really felt like it was as human as I, I wanted my career path to be, you know, and, and there

00:03:35.480 was something, um, that to me felt like it was the skills of persuasion and all of the things

00:03:42.640 that I liked about the idea of being a therapist, but at a time in someone's life where they're

00:03:48.460 just incredibly open to change because either they are creating change by deciding to get

00:03:55.580 divorced or they're having change thrust upon them by their spouse saying, okay, our marriage

00:04:00.020 is ending, but it's a time of just massive change and reorganization of a person's life.

00:04:04.780 And that struck me as, um, a really, really amazing opportunity to be part of people's

00:04:11.000 re-imagining of themselves.

00:04:12.040 So it, it hit all the boxes that I liked about being a therapist, but with the ability to use

00:04:18.900 my powers of persuasion and speech and my sort of chess player mentality and bring that

00:04:25.180 to the benefit of my clients.

00:04:26.800 So yeah, it's very rare in law school.

00:04:28.540 I was the only person I've met in law school who wanted to be a divorce lawyer.

00:04:31.760 And I say in my book, as you note, that people tend to, when you talk to divorce lawyers, they

00:04:35.900 say, well, I ended up in divorce law because of this, or I ended up doing an end up as the

00:04:40.920 term you use all the time.

00:04:42.260 And I think that's very funny because you very rarely use that term for something you meant

00:04:46.420 to do.

00:04:47.120 You know, like you don't say, well, I ended up in Milwaukee, you know, it's like, oh yeah,

00:04:50.440 I was trying to get to this place and I ended up there.

00:04:52.680 It's always that you landed someplace you didn't mean to be.

00:04:55.720 And I was very deliberately a matrimonial lawyer.

00:04:59.500 So what's the state of divorce in America today?

00:05:01.940 Like what's the divorce rate?

00:05:03.200 Divorce rate changes every year, but the latest statistics put it somewhere in the area of

00:05:07.060 56%.

00:05:07.920 That's up a little bit from the year prior.

00:05:10.840 But the question of course is what was the impact of COVID and the slowdown and shutdown

00:05:16.280 of the court system in varying degrees across the United States.

00:05:19.680 You know, the statistics for first marriages is what we're really interested in because

00:05:24.420 second marriages are, have a higher divorce rate than first marriages, but third marriages

00:05:30.260 and beyond have abysmally high divorce rates.

00:05:33.020 Like you're in the 76% when you get to like a third marriage.

00:05:36.320 But yeah, I mean the state of divorce is that it continues to be above 50%.

00:05:41.180 It is still more likely than not that you will get divorced when you get married, which, you

00:05:47.380 know, arguably if we're using legal standards, and I know you have a legal education, so

00:05:51.280 you understand the concept of negligence or recklessness, you know, one could pretty saliently

00:05:56.940 argue that getting married is a reckless activity or at a minimum a negligent activity because

00:06:02.940 the probability of harm is quite high if you get married, the likelihood of harm is quite

00:06:09.320 high, and the severity of the harm is quite high.

00:06:12.340 So what we use to call the BPL analysis, you know, the, the, what is negligence per se?

00:06:17.980 Theoretically, you know, marriage is still an inherently negligent activity, similar to

00:06:22.260 owning a lion as a pet or having a trampoline next to a, you know, a radioactive waste pile.

00:06:30.160 So yeah, that divorce rate, it's, you had to break it down some.

00:06:32.740 So you mentioned if you're on your second or third marriage, the rate goes up.

00:06:36.140 What's the rate look like for first time marriages?

00:06:38.140 First marriages is somewhere over 46% as of 2022.

00:06:42.600 That's the 2022 statistics.

00:06:44.660 And yeah, so it's, it's still quite high.

00:06:46.700 The reason why it, when you, when you say it's, you know, 56% is the divorce rate, you're talking

00:06:51.620 about, you know, everything, everybody, all in, um, but basically the stats, which are,

00:06:58.480 you know, pretty publicly available, um, I know Forbes puts them out every year, um, but they're

00:07:03.080 always compiled by the Bureau of Vital Statistics.

00:07:05.140 You know, what's interesting to me about that is those are the people that file for and

00:07:10.440 ultimately receive a judgment of divorce, but that does not include people who are unhappily

00:07:17.580 married, right?

00:07:18.560 Who stay married, but aren't enjoying the marriage.

00:07:20.840 They stay together for the kids or for religious reasons or because they don't want to, uh, deal

00:07:25.160 with the financial repercussions of divorce.

00:07:27.160 It also doesn't calculate in people who just, you know, are not together anymore, but don't

00:07:33.320 file for divorce.

00:07:34.200 I mean, we used to call that jokingly of the Irish divorce.

00:07:37.500 You go out for milk and never come back.

00:07:39.480 But that percentage, that already quite high percentage doesn't include people who just

00:07:45.480 physically separated from each other and act as if they were divorced, even though they

00:07:49.440 didn't legally divorce.

00:07:50.540 Those are just people who legally went through the paperwork of getting divorced.

00:07:54.940 Are there any demos of people more likely to divorce?

00:07:58.240 Yeah.

00:07:58.460 I mean, there's a huge amount of statistics out there about, you know, what leads to it.

00:08:02.560 And again, I mean, I, I'm not a huge fan of statistics because I think that correlation

00:08:06.700 and causation sometimes get mixed up, but yeah, I mean, you know, the couples who live

00:08:11.340 together before marriage are more likely to divorce.

00:08:14.120 So they have a higher divorce rate if they live together. 0.95

00:08:16.680 Having friends who are divorced increases your risk of divorce.

00:08:20.060 You know, 60% of divorced couples cite infidelity as the reason for their divorce.

00:08:25.920 58% of couples report that arguing was present.

00:08:30.560 45% indicate they married too young.

00:08:33.200 38% say that financial problems were a root cause.

00:08:37.540 Yeah.

00:08:37.700 Another statistics I've seen, if you're not college educated, more likely to divorce.

00:08:41.920 That's another one I've seen.

00:08:42.940 Yeah.

00:08:43.420 And then the outcomes also, which is people who are divorced die more prematurely than

00:08:48.660 people who are married.

00:08:49.780 Yeah.

00:08:49.920 It's bad for men.

00:08:50.640 Men really getting a funk when they get divorced.

00:08:53.500 Yeah.

00:08:53.560 And I think that's an interesting misconception that like men fare better after a divorce,

00:08:58.580 you know, because of the old sense that, you know, men age like wine and women age like

00:09:03.920 avocados.

00:09:04.800 This idea that a man who divorces in his forties, in his fifties, that he still has the ability

00:09:09.800 to have, you know, 20 and 30 year old romantic partners.

00:09:13.240 But the statistics really actually bear out that men fare a lot worse after a divorce in

00:09:17.960 terms of their emotional outcomes.

00:09:20.160 You know, a person with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

00:09:22.240 And I think there is a lot of misandry out there now.

00:09:25.120 And there's obviously a lot of people that are looking to, they've decided that men have

00:09:30.260 it better and then they want to find statistics to back that up.

00:09:32.860 But I don't find that to be the case in my own professional practice of representing

00:09:37.560 men and women.

00:09:38.660 And I think that men do have a very hard time with divorce.

00:09:42.620 And again, some of that may be a function of men having less of an emotional vocabulary

00:09:46.720 or being encouraged to have less of a more emotional vocabulary from a younger age.

00:09:51.560 You know, I think divorce is by all accounts a failure.

00:09:55.300 I don't think anybody ever means to get divorced or when they get married, they certainly didn't

00:09:59.440 mean to get divorced. 0.82

00:10:00.840 So, you know, men don't generally as at the risk of oversimplification, I mean, we have challenges

00:10:06.200 with failure, you know, it's hard to admit that you failed, it's hard to lose, and divorce

00:10:11.200 is a loss.

00:10:11.900 Even if you quote unquote win in the divorce, if you have a better outcome financially or

00:10:16.940 you do well in terms of the obligations you have or the amount of time you can spend with

00:10:20.340 your children, it's still a loss.

00:10:23.020 You know, it's still a tremendous loss.

00:10:25.100 You can have the friendliest divorce in the world and you're still losing effectively half

00:10:28.780 the time you've had with your children.

00:10:30.340 So that's a big hit for people.

00:10:32.360 Who's more likely to initiate divorce in your experience, men or women, or is it about the

00:10:35.660 same?

00:10:36.580 Statistically, women are more likely to initiate divorce than men, but in my experience, it's

00:10:41.460 roughly the same.

00:10:42.880 It's also a question of like, you know, who initiates the divorce, meaning who files a

00:10:47.700 divorce action.

00:10:49.080 That's not usually the person necessarily.

00:10:51.440 It doesn't automatically mean that's the person who took the steps to say, okay, this is over.

00:10:56.000 Divorce is really the process of burying what's dead, but who killed it and who's the first

00:11:01.440 person to acknowledge that it's dead?

00:11:04.100 You know, that's a very individual thing and I don't really think there's a clear gender

00:11:07.660 line on that.

00:11:08.520 But filing wise, more women are likely to file for divorce than men. 0.99

00:11:12.460 But it begs the question, is that because women have come to the conclusion the marriage 1.00

00:11:16.140 is over before men did or is it that women are more inclined to want to protect their 0.99

00:11:21.540 rights or understand their obligations when they're in a situation where their marriage

00:11:27.040 is ending?

00:11:27.920 Yeah.

00:11:28.220 This is completely anecdotal, but like my social circle of couples I know that got in

00:11:32.460 divorce, I would say like half of them, the man initiated the divorce, but it was because

00:11:37.500 he found out that his wife was cheating, which is interesting because we'll talk about this

00:11:42.560 later on, like what causes divorce?

00:11:44.520 Because we typically think of, you know, the philandering husband as a stereotype, but...

00:11:49.280 Well, because that's a really popular stereotype.

00:11:51.300 I mean, it makes for great stories, right?

00:11:53.680 I think that sort of the zeitgeist is masculinity and misandry and all of that is really, you 1.00

00:12:00.780 know, if a man cheats, he's a scumbag. 1.00

00:12:02.620 You know, he's a scumbag, he's a bad guy, he's a philanderer, he's low morals, he doesn't 1.00

00:12:07.660 care about his family, he doesn't care about his wife. 1.00

00:12:10.280 If a man cheats, you know, he is the bad guy, right?

00:12:15.600 If his wife cheats, he is still the bad guy.

00:12:19.700 He wasn't taking care of her, he was neglecting her needs, she was driven into the arms of

00:12:23.920 another person.

00:12:25.520 You know, it really is a situation where, you know, if a woman is cheated on, she's the 0.85

00:12:31.700 victim.

00:12:32.380 You know, this poor woman, here she is and her husband's running around on her. 1.00

00:12:35.860 And if a woman cheats, it's like, oh my gosh, you poor thing, how could you have been forced 0.99

00:12:39.760 into that situation?

00:12:40.860 Your needs weren't being met.

00:12:41.960 It's a voyage of self-discovery, or you needed to explore who you really are, and your husband

00:12:46.520 wasn't meeting your needs.

00:12:47.460 So I do think culturally, right now, we've created an environment where, yeah, the men 0.83

00:12:53.060 are generally easier to paint as the villains.

00:12:55.560 I kind of wish life was that simple.

00:12:58.320 You know, it's like Solzhenitsyn said, I wish there were just good and bad people, and

00:13:02.680 they were just running around doing bad things or good things.

00:13:05.100 But the truth is, is the line of good and evil runs through the human heart.

00:13:08.240 I've had female clients that just, you know, pursued relationships because they felt like 1.00

00:13:13.260 it.

00:13:13.440 And I've had people whose needs were being terribly not met, and they moved on and found

00:13:17.280 someone else that reminded them of the fact that they could feel love and romance and

00:13:21.760 excitement, and that was the thing that pushed them over the precipice.

00:13:24.840 I've had men who had that exact same experience.

00:13:26.800 You know, I talk a lot about infidelity in my book because there's just a tremendous amount

00:13:32.180 of infidelity in divorce work.

00:13:34.220 You talk to the cheater, you talk to the cheated on, and you start to figure out that it's just

00:13:40.320 not as simple as people would love it to be, where it's, you know, one good guy or good

00:13:45.120 girl and one bad guy or one bad girl, and it's just, you know, or a femme fatale who, you 1.00

00:13:50.340 know, sweeps the other person away.

00:13:51.900 It's just, that's such an oversimplification.

00:13:54.080 Makes for great movies, but it's just not, you know, it's not real.

00:13:57.280 All right.

00:13:57.460 Men and women, they can both be awful because we're both human beings.

00:14:01.020 Well, they can both be vulnerable.

00:14:02.160 They both are susceptible to the same temptation as anything, you know?

00:14:06.500 I mean, we all, we all are susceptible to temptation.

00:14:09.820 You know, I'm not a religious person, but I tend to think it's humorous that, you know,

00:14:16.360 if you believe in any of the Abrahamic religions and you believe that God gave us 10 rules,

00:14:22.120 you know, whether he spoke to Moses through a burning bush or on a mountain, you know, but

00:14:26.320 I think we'd all agree that the 10 commandments themselves have some validity, right?

00:14:31.440 Whether they were divinely inspired or whether they're just an invention of the authors,

00:14:35.820 I don't know.

00:14:36.820 But, you know, there are 10 rules that have been handed down thousands of years ago and

00:14:43.220 don't have sex with someone who you're not married to is two of the 10.

00:14:49.100 It's the only one that gets repeated.

00:14:51.480 Like thou shall not kill is one time thou shall not kill.

00:14:54.940 Thou shall not steal.

00:14:56.120 That's one time.

00:14:58.080 But thou shall not covet thy neighbor's wife and thou shall not commit adultery.

00:15:03.240 Those are two commandments.

00:15:04.680 You only get to make 10 rules and two of them, God, theoretically, as the author is saying,

00:15:11.000 hey, seriously, like don't sleep with people other than your spouse.

00:15:13.720 No, no.

00:15:14.040 But like for real, don't sleep with people other than your spouse.

00:15:17.300 If that doesn't give you some indication, this problem has been around for a while and

00:15:22.700 has been something humans are dealing with for a real long time.

00:15:27.100 I don't think there's a better example or proof of that than the fact that two of the

00:15:31.440 10 commandments are addressing this specific issue.

00:15:34.280 Okay.

00:15:34.560 So despite the fact that you're a divorce attorney, that's how you make your living,

00:15:37.360 helping people in their marriages.

00:15:39.180 And despite the fact that you said that if you look at the statistics, marriage looks like

00:15:43.820 a big, giant risk.

00:15:45.020 Um, it'd be negligent, uh, to get married. 0.80

00:15:48.640 You're a romantic and you actually, you've written a book.

00:15:51.280 Um, it's a marriage advice book and you talk about how, what people can do to strengthen

00:15:57.640 their marriage and hopefully create a marriage where they don't have to end up seeing you. 0.96

00:16:01.620 I'm curious, what insights does a divorce attorney have about creating a marriage that lasts that,

00:16:06.620 you know, why would you think you need to write a marriage advice book?

00:16:09.380 Yeah.

00:16:09.780 Well, first of all, I, I do think I am a romantic at heart in terms of my temperament,

00:16:14.780 but I also see the value in marriage.

00:16:17.260 I mean, I look, we, we talked about the statistics of divorce and how frequent it is, but here's

00:16:21.600 a statistic that a lot of people don't talk about.

00:16:24.200 86% of people who get divorced are remarried within five years of their divorce.

00:16:29.880 Now, what does that tell you?

00:16:31.720 That tells you that there is some need for this particular form of pair bonding.

00:16:37.020 You know, there is something here that even when it's failed, even when you've been through

00:16:40.960 the trauma and difficulty of a divorce, 86% of people go at it again.

00:16:45.400 They go, let's try it.

00:16:46.200 Why?

00:16:46.660 If it didn't have value to us, you know, I don't believe I can learn everything about

00:16:50.620 myself from myself.

00:16:51.960 I think I need other people to help me find my blind spots and intimacy.

00:16:56.640 If you look up the word intimacy, it doesn't have anything to do with sex.

00:17:00.480 Intimacy is the ability to be completely yourself with another person.

00:17:04.920 And in its best form, that's what marriage is, is the ability to be yourself with another

00:17:10.200 person who loves you, who's cheering for you, who sees your blind spots that you can't see

00:17:16.280 and you see theirs and you love them anyway and you try to help them grow and develop into

00:17:20.860 the fullness of who they are.

00:17:22.500 And look, to me, just because something is unlikely to be successful doesn't mean it's

00:17:28.480 not worth trying.

00:17:29.700 You know, I tell people jokingly that marriage is like the lottery.

00:17:32.700 You are probably not going to win.

00:17:35.680 But if you win, what you win is so good and so valuable that I think it's worth it to buy

00:17:42.640 a ticket.

00:17:43.500 I think it's worth it to try to be married.

00:17:46.520 And so the second question you asked, which is what is a divorce lawyer, a divorced divorce

00:17:51.680 lawyer of all people, going to be able to tell you about how to keep your marriage strong

00:17:57.200 and vibrant?

00:17:58.860 And I actually think I have a very unique perspective, not only lived experience, but that could

00:18:04.420 be very uniquely mine and therefore not applicable to many people.

00:18:08.300 But as a divorce lawyer, I have had a ringside seat to men, women, every permutation, older,

00:18:15.520 younger, different religions, lived together, didn't live together, long-term marriages, short-term

00:18:19.200 marriages, marriages with the kids without, high net worth, lower net worth.

00:18:22.280 If I've seen every permutation of how love falls apart, well, who's going to tell you

00:18:26.460 how to keep your car together better than a mechanic who all they do is watch how cars

00:18:30.760 break down and watch what parts of the car are the first to break down and look at, hey,

00:18:36.200 you know, if you'd come in, my sister, for example, my sister's a dentist and she often

00:18:41.960 will say to me that if you have a toothache, it's too late.

00:18:45.640 Like, there's a very limited set of things she can do for you if you have a toothache.

00:18:49.740 By the time your tooth hurts, there's too much going on now to fix it.

00:18:54.400 But if you'd seen her before you had a toothache, there's a whole bunch of things she could do

00:18:59.660 to prevent you from ever having a toothache and to prevent you from ever being in that

00:19:03.180 situation.

00:19:03.740 So I really looked at it as my job puts me in this very unique role where people are

00:19:10.580 very candidly, with attorney-client privilege, telling me the honest truth about their marriage,

00:19:16.980 their finances, their parenting, their relationship with their spouse, and they have no reason to

00:19:22.000 lie to me because they're protected by attorney-client privilege and your doctor and your lawyer are

00:19:25.720 the only two people you should never lie to because our only job is to protect you.

00:19:30.320 And, you know, I get to watch how all these couples fall apart and I started to see patterns

00:19:35.420 of how people got into my office, you know, and that's how the title of the book,

00:19:41.920 if you're in my office, it's already too late, that it really was about what got these people here.

00:19:47.900 Because I genuinely believe, you know, Tom Wolfe in The Bonfire of the Vanities,

00:19:52.820 one of the characters is talking about his financial woes and the character says to him,

00:19:57.620 how did you go bankrupt?

00:19:58.540 And he says, the same way everybody does, very slowly and then all at once.

00:20:03.580 And I think that's what happens with marriages. 0.99

00:20:05.420 They fall apart very slowly and then all at once.

00:20:08.860 And so I wanted to write a book about what is the very slowly, what we fall in love super fast.

00:20:17.100 You know, we just feel this spark, this connection, this passion, but we fall out of love more slowly.

00:20:24.180 And I wanted to think about and talk about how could we keep those little connections

00:20:29.720 so we never have those big marriage killers like infidelity or other major things come into play.

00:20:37.040 Well, let's talk about what causes divorce. 0.76

00:20:39.820 And I think the big one we've been talking about is infidelity.

00:20:43.420 Yeah.

00:20:43.660 And you talk about there are five types of infidelity that you've seen.

00:20:46.740 What are those five types of infidelity?

00:20:48.200 I think we all like to think our lives are so unique, but I mean, having now, you know,

00:20:53.660 I'm the guy who has to read the text messages between the mistress and the guy or the, you know,

00:20:58.540 the paramour and the woman.

00:21:00.180 And so I got a real ringside seat.

00:21:02.060 And again, I represent the cheater and the cheated on.

00:21:04.200 So I don't have a dog in the fight.

00:21:07.000 But yeah, I think I tried to break it down into five types and they're very general, of course.

00:21:12.600 But the first one is what I call the freshly discovered soulmate, which is, you know, where

00:21:17.040 you just decide I've met this person and they are my soulmate.

00:21:22.520 They're just, they're just, you know, you're, you're raptured by this person.

00:21:26.000 And I think we're particularly susceptible to this right now because the concept of a soulmate

00:21:31.200 has just been jammed down our throats culturally, even though I think it's a terribly toxic way.

00:21:37.440 Because really, what does it mean?

00:21:38.580 Like your soulmate is your perfect friend, perfect romantic partner, perfect sexual partner,

00:21:45.200 perfect roommate, perfect co-parent, perfect travel companion.

00:21:49.040 Like what are the odds of one person being all of those things?

00:21:52.140 That's crazy. 0.86

00:21:53.200 Like that's just a ridiculous list of demands for a person. 0.66

00:21:56.440 And the truth is like, you don't need to have all of those with your spouse.

00:22:00.860 Like you and your spouse don't have to like exactly the same music, exactly the same food.

00:22:04.760 You don't have to, there are certain things you want, you know, like if you're a slob 1.00

00:22:07.940 and your spouse is a neat freak, that's an incompatibility, but you don't have to be perfect. 1.00

00:22:12.980 Like perfect is the enemy of good, you know, perfect is the enemy of, and comparison is

00:22:16.960 the thief of joy.

00:22:17.800 But we live in a society now where we're looking at this curated greatest hits from everyone

00:22:24.160 on social media while we're living our gag reel.

00:22:26.600 And we're looking at our marriage and comparing it to the performative status of people's

00:22:34.420 marriages who, by the way, are doing, you know, hashtag best husband ever, hashtag blessed

00:22:38.400 while they were just in my office doing a consult.

00:22:40.680 So they're not being honest.

00:22:41.840 I mean, I, I crack up when I look at the social media of people who I represent because a month

00:22:46.560 before they came in and filed for divorce, they're posting about how wonderful their life

00:22:50.120 is and all their pictures of how great everything is and their vacation and how wonderful it is.

00:22:54.460 And they're full of it, but people are comparing themselves.

00:22:57.460 So it's just like face filters.

00:22:58.560 You're comparing yourself to something that's not real.

00:23:01.520 So soulmates, you know, the discovered soulmate is what I call the first type of infidelity,

00:23:06.900 which is you find someone who you've decided, this is my person.

00:23:11.040 I made a horrible mistake being with this other person.

00:23:14.060 And by the way, it rarely plays out that way.

00:23:16.380 There's a joke in my line of work that a man who leaves his wife for his mistress just 0.90

00:23:21.840 creates a job opening.

00:23:22.920 And I think the statistics to some degree bear that out.

00:23:26.420 The second type of infidelity, I call it the wake-up call.

00:23:29.300 And the wake-up call for many people, I think, is it's really like the nail in the coffin.

00:23:35.460 They've been unhappy.

00:23:36.780 They didn't realize how unhappy they were.

00:23:39.440 And when they meet this new person or they reconnect with a person who they used to be with

00:23:44.840 and they feel that spark of connection and passion, it shows them how far they are

00:23:51.080 from their spouse.

00:23:52.880 And this happens a lot with women. 1.00

00:23:54.560 I find a lot of women who've engaged in infidelity. 1.00

00:23:57.880 It's sort of the soft place to land.

00:23:59.740 It's the thing that made them go, yeah, I didn't realize how bad it was.

00:24:02.860 And I think this is something we can all relate to in the sense that, you know, until you get

00:24:06.820 over being sick, you don't realize how sick you were.

00:24:09.160 You know, you go like, oh, man, I was really sick.

00:24:11.840 Like, I don't know if you're, like, tired and cranky.

00:24:13.820 And then you go to sleep.

00:24:14.940 When you wake up from that nap, you go like, oh, my God, I was so tired.

00:24:18.060 I didn't realize how tired I was, you know.

00:24:19.700 And so I think it's a matter of sometimes people don't see.

00:24:23.380 And so I call it the wake-up call.

00:24:25.540 The third kind is, to me, you know, very tragic. 1.00

00:24:28.420 And that is what I call the big mistake, which is I do think sometimes people just, people are just stupid. 0.98

00:24:34.020 They just have an impulse control issue, and they're drunk, or they have an opportunity, 1.00

00:24:39.360 and they give in to, you know, an impulse, a sexual impulse, and they make a mistake, you know.

00:24:44.380 And look, I'm not suggesting, oops, you just made a mistake.

00:24:46.940 No big deal.

00:24:47.540 I understand it's a big deal.

00:24:49.000 But look, we all do things that we know are bad for us, that weren't a good thing for us,

00:24:55.440 that don't align with our morals or our goals.

00:24:58.400 You know, discipline is, as Jocko Willenick says, trading what you want now for what you want most.

00:25:02.780 And I think the reality is, is we all know, hey, I'm trying to honor my diet and my body and be really healthy.

00:25:08.720 But then someone walks by with cupcakes, and you're like, oh, come on, I'm just going to have one.

00:25:11.740 And then you have one, and now you're like, oh, I just blew the diet.

00:25:14.060 I can't believe it.

00:25:15.360 Look, I think that people make mistakes sometimes.

00:25:18.560 And I've had people who come in, and they go, look, I don't, I love my spouse.

00:25:24.300 I screwed up.

00:25:25.520 I love my spouse.

00:25:27.240 And thankfully, a lot of those people work through the infidelity.

00:25:31.640 They work through that situation.

00:25:34.080 It's very, very sad when someone, as a result of just a mistake, you know, of a poor impulse control,

00:25:41.520 an urge that they followed through on that they shouldn't have, and they know they shouldn't have,

00:25:46.200 and they regret terribly, when that leads to a divorce, that's a very tragic thing.

00:25:51.280 It's the least often that I see in my office.

00:25:54.440 Usually people come in with the freshly discovered soulmate, and they come in and say,

00:25:58.460 oh, I've met someone, and I love them, and this is the person for me.

00:26:01.480 The fourth kind I call the push out of the closet, and that's a unique set of circumstances,

00:26:06.080 but I'm seeing it less often these days, thankfully.

00:26:09.160 Early in my career, you know, in the last 10, 20 years, there have been major strides in LGBTQ+,

00:26:13.740 you know, legal rights and obligations when it comes to marriage, and so there was certainly a time

00:26:19.900 where I think the level of homophobia and heteronormativity in our culture was such that,

00:26:24.740 you know, there were a lot of closeted gay men, closeted lesbian women who were kind of living

00:26:30.180 double lives, and then they would have, you know, same-sex affairs, and if they get caught,

00:26:35.600 you know, that's sort of the push out of the closet.

00:26:37.500 And I had, you know, in my career, a number of people who just got caught with a same-sex partner.

00:26:43.320 They had been living their lives purportedly as heterosexuals.

00:26:46.500 Meanwhile, they were secretly, you know, having either same-sex attraction,

00:26:51.200 or they were, in fact, having same-sex relationships.

00:26:54.620 So that's a very common form of infidelity.

00:26:57.000 That's the fourth kind.

00:26:57.740 Then the last kind is what I call the revenge, which is simple to understand,

00:27:00.920 which is your partner cheated, so now you're going to cheat.

00:27:02.780 You're going to teach them.

00:27:03.660 You're going to teach them a lesson.

00:27:04.620 Oh, yeah, it's okay for you to sleep with your secretary, and I'm going to go sleep with my 0.97

00:27:07.700 personal trainer.

00:27:08.700 And that's, you know, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

00:27:11.680 I don't think anybody feels any better at the conclusion of that, but it's a real,

00:27:14.540 real common thing to do.

00:27:15.900 So you said the most common one is the soulmate thing?

00:27:18.340 I mean, the most common one ends up in my office.

00:27:20.400 Yeah, okay.

00:27:21.140 Again, I have a unique perspective.

00:27:22.480 I'm a divorce lawyer, so I'm sure if you asked Esther Perel, who I've been on some panels with

00:27:26.340 and who works with couples who are navigating their way through infidelity and trying to stay

00:27:30.400 married, she would probably have a different experience of it than me.

00:27:33.460 Well, let's talk about that wake-up call one, because that seems like something you can,

00:27:38.000 there's things you can do in your marriage to prevent that from happening, right?

00:27:41.520 100%.

00:27:41.960 And it's typically not like a big thing that happens that causes you to go, well, you know,

00:27:47.600 this relationship's over and I might as well go find someone else.

00:27:50.240 Like, what are the little things that lead up to someone, man or woman, cheating on their

00:27:55.080 spouse because they found that the relationship they have right now isn't meeting some need?

00:27:59.400 Yeah, I think, you know, the unfortunate answer is it's a lot of very small things.

00:28:06.140 I mean, and anyone who's married knows this.

00:28:08.400 Like, if you're sitting around having breakfast with your spouse and you're having a discussion

00:28:14.140 about the best way to cook bacon and 10 minutes later, it's like, you know, I never liked your

00:28:19.800 mother, you know, and it's like, wait, how did we get here?

00:28:23.080 Like, what happened?

00:28:24.580 Like, this was a discussion about the best route to take to get to the mall on whether

00:28:29.660 the freeway or the back roads and suddenly it's that you never listened to me and you

00:28:33.420 don't care about my opinion and you never liked my sister.

00:28:36.020 Like, what is this stuff you're carrying around?

00:28:38.820 So, I generally think that disconnection is the answer.

00:28:43.460 Like, that's what happens.

00:28:44.780 People slowly disconnect in these little tiny ways.

00:28:47.920 So, what I encourage people to do is to just vigilantly maintain connection.

00:28:54.480 You know, we should always be working on our marriage.

00:28:57.500 We should always be trying to look at it with new eyes.

00:29:00.420 We should always be, as Jimmy Iovine said, he was one of the most successful marriages

00:29:05.920 in Hollywood and in the recording industry, is he said, I'm always trying to close my wife.

00:29:10.780 He said, I'm always trying to, like, act like I'm trying to impress her and woo her.

00:29:14.800 And what's amazing in my experience as a heterosexual man is how unbelievably easy that can be

00:29:22.840 if you make a concerted effort at it.

00:29:25.480 You know, the test I tell most of my male friends is leave a note.

00:29:31.820 I just, I cannot emphasize this enough.

00:29:34.340 If you don't believe me, if you don't believe anything that I say, that's okay.

00:29:37.740 People are entitled to their opinions and my beliefs don't require that you believe them.

00:29:41.240 But if you want to try something, just leave your wife a note every morning for a couple of weeks.

00:29:47.820 Just leave her a note. 0.96

00:29:48.680 Just a little, hey, babe, you know, just thanks for last night on the couch watching TV.

00:29:54.440 It was so nice.

00:29:55.480 Like, the smell of you is just, makes me so happy.

00:29:58.100 I fell asleep with it on me.

00:29:59.460 Or, you know, you looked so pretty when I woke up this morning.

00:30:02.940 You know, I'm so glad to have such a wonderful woman in my life.

00:30:05.740 Love you.

00:30:06.500 And that takes you 30 seconds.

00:30:08.080 And I'm telling you, that little tiny investment of time and effort will pay dividends like you wouldn't believe.

00:30:15.400 I mean, there are these small things.

00:30:17.580 And when you get to have the view that I have where people are talking to me about these painful ends to their relationship.

00:30:25.120 I talk about in the book, one of the chapters, I talk about a young woman who was divorcing who had two children.

00:30:32.320 And we'd been a lot of miles.

00:30:35.020 And I said to her, you know, was there a moment where you knew that your marriage was over?

00:30:39.220 And she told me what was very heartfelt to me and very powerful to me, which is she said that there was a granola that she liked to eat that she used to put in her yogurt.

00:30:50.080 And her husband used to always notice when she was running low on it and he would always get a new bag of it for her.

00:30:57.400 I guess it was like only sold at a particular health food store or something.

00:31:01.360 And she's like, I never told him that that meant so much to me.

00:31:05.420 But it was just such a sweet thing that like he would just notice that I was running out of my granola.

00:31:09.600 He didn't eat it.

00:31:10.440 But it was like he would notice I was running out of my granola and there'd just be this new bag.

00:31:13.740 And he didn't come to me and say like, oh, look, I got your granola for you.

00:31:16.800 You know, you didn't want credit for it.

00:31:18.100 It's just something he did.

00:31:19.040 It was this small gesture that I'm paying attention, that I see this detail and that I love you and I want to just extend this kindness, this courtesy to you.

00:31:29.120 And she said that one day she ran out of granola and she thought, oh, well, maybe he's busy and he didn't notice or whatever.

00:31:35.780 So she left the empty bag in there.

00:31:38.400 And after like a week or two, he still hadn't replaced it.

00:31:41.520 And she thought, OK, this is over.

00:31:43.180 And she said it became apparent in the weeks that followed that like this distance was coming between the two of them.

00:31:50.440 And I thought to myself, like, what if that is it?

00:31:53.120 Like if it's just granola, like it's just these little tiny gestures of, oh, they use this milk.

00:31:59.300 So let me put it on the table or, oh, they don't like the sound of the garbage disposal.

00:32:03.880 It jars them when it's loud.

00:32:05.140 So I go, hey, babe, I'm going to turn on the garbage disposal real quick.

00:32:07.300 Don't be afraid when I turn it on.

00:32:08.560 Like this small considerations, right?

00:32:11.860 Like, you know them about your wife.

00:32:13.920 I don't.

00:32:14.760 You know, your wife knows them about you.

00:32:16.900 I don't.

00:32:17.960 Like those to me, those intimacies, those little things, the things you love, the things you're afraid of, the things that get on your nerves.

00:32:26.180 Your partner theoretically has the ringside seat to those and they can leverage them in the most beautiful ways.

00:32:34.920 I see it when they weaponize them.

00:32:37.340 So by the time you get to my office, you go, okay, I'm angry at this person and here's where their soft spots are. 0.99

00:32:44.660 So here's where we can stab them.

00:32:46.520 But I really think that if you can identify those things while you're happily married, you can use them without a massive amount of effort.

00:32:55.940 Just small little efforts to just build this abundance of happiness and goodwill between the two of you or maintain it.

00:33:03.640 We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

00:33:08.300 And now back to the show.

00:33:10.680 Okay, so maintain connection.

00:33:12.200 And I mean, I think it's about continuing to do the kind of little niceties, you know, the polite stuff, the sharing of gratitude, the affectionate stuff that you did when you were first together and not letting that stuff drop off.

00:33:24.900 And you also talk about how important open communication is in keeping the connection.

00:33:29.320 I have a chapter called Hit Send Now, where I talk about just regularly checking in with your partner.

00:33:37.620 I suggest it be done by email because there's something about writing that I think helps you organize your thoughts.

00:33:43.840 And also it's non-confrontational.

00:33:45.740 Like if you try to talk to someone verbally, you're sort of saying, okay, we're going to talk about this right now.

00:33:50.320 Here we go.

00:33:50.960 And then it brings out something defensive in people.

00:33:52.980 Whereas when you read something, you sometimes have time to reflect on it and think about it before you formulate your response.

00:33:58.600 But like I've had couples who contacted me after they read the book and said, yeah, we do a walk and talk now once a week.

00:34:04.680 And we just walk around.

00:34:05.740 We just talk about what did you do well this week in the marriage and what could we work on, you know.

00:34:10.840 And just maintaining that level of vigilance.

00:34:13.980 I'm sure if you thought about your marriage and yourself as a husband, you could tell me something you did this week that you're proud of for your wife or in your relation to your wife.

00:34:25.920 And you could probably find something that you're not proud of.

00:34:28.600 You know, that you could have done better.

00:34:30.440 And by the way, as painful and hard as it is to do, I bet you could point out something your wife did for you this week that made you feel loved by or close to her.

00:34:40.480 And maybe something that she said or did that made you feel less loved and less close to her or an opportunity that she missed that she could have done, right?

00:34:50.460 And why not say it?

00:34:53.060 Like, why not say it?

00:34:54.640 Like, wouldn't she want to hear that?

00:34:57.280 Like, wouldn't your wife want to hear, like, man, when you said that last night, that was so nice.

00:35:02.040 Like, it just made me feel so loved when you said that.

00:35:04.780 Or, you know, when I told you about what happened at work and you said, oh, I disagree with this or that.

00:35:10.440 Like, man, I just felt so, like, kind of criticized.

00:35:12.540 And I felt like you kind of didn't meet me where I needed you. 0.99

00:35:16.000 Like, and again, not saying it from a place of, so you suck and I'm leaving. 0.96

00:35:19.420 You're saying it from a place of, I know you have such power over me. 0.98

00:35:23.280 You have such an ability to make me happy.

00:35:26.040 Like, we've got a culture that just encourages us to just criticize our spouse.

00:35:31.900 And at best, it's constructive criticism.

00:35:34.320 But constructive criticism is still criticism, right?

00:35:36.940 And no one likes to be constructively criticized either.

00:35:39.880 I'm not saying you shouldn't try to steer your partner into directions that will make them happy and you happy.

00:35:47.240 But doing it in a way that makes them feel loved, supported.

00:35:50.880 You know, one of the things we love about our partners is that they're cheering for us.

00:35:55.900 There's 7.3 billion people in the world and you picked your wife. 0.99

00:35:59.540 Like, 7.3 billion people and you said, you're the one.

00:36:02.680 You're the one I want to take this ride with.

00:36:04.840 I want to have kids with.

00:36:05.780 I want to solve problems with.

00:36:08.500 I want to get old with.

00:36:10.280 You're the person.

00:36:11.300 That's huge.

00:36:12.120 It's a huge, huge task that you've given that person.

00:36:15.540 And why wouldn't you communicate really actively?

00:36:18.800 Like, people are always asking me, you know, what is the thing that we can do to stay together?

00:36:23.440 And it's kind of like saying to me, like, what is intelligence? 0.99

00:36:26.580 I don't know what intelligence is, but I can spot stupid a mile away. 0.98

00:36:30.480 You know, so I don't know what makes marriages work. 0.99

00:36:33.340 But I think what makes marriages work is just doing the opposite of the thing that makes them fall apart.

00:36:39.120 So what makes them fall apart is when you stop caring about what's going on in your spouse's mind and in their heart.

00:36:46.020 When you stop trying to let them know how much you love them.

00:36:49.780 When you stop feeling loved by them and seen by them and appreciated and valued by them.

00:36:55.020 So anything we can do to lean into that, that's valuable as far as I'm concerned.

00:36:59.600 Right.

00:36:59.780 So that can prevent the wake-up of infidelity.

00:37:01.360 Because if you're paying attention to the small things, someone's not going to go to someone else to get those things.

00:37:06.920 Yeah, because I think a lot of times, I mean, we're going to talk about this.

00:37:08.820 I think sometimes a lot of times people think infidelity is just about sex.

00:37:12.020 And it can be for some people.

00:37:13.360 That could be a thing.

00:37:14.440 But oftentimes it's just about, you know, my wife or my husband.

00:37:17.280 And they just stopped caring about me.

00:37:19.480 And I found someone who gave me that attention that I had when I was first dating my wife or my husband.

00:37:27.180 Of course.

00:37:27.920 And by the way, sex isn't just about sex. 0.92

00:37:31.240 Sex isn't just about sex. 0.97

00:37:32.680 Sex is friction. 0.88

00:37:33.720 Sure.

00:37:34.000 Sex is a biological act.

00:37:35.580 Sex is a drive and an impulse.

00:37:37.220 But sex is also about feeling handsome or beautiful.

00:37:40.640 Feeling desirable and desired.

00:37:43.420 You know, feeling physically capable.

00:37:45.840 And, you know, I mean, sex is loaded with all kinds of things.

00:37:49.960 So pay attention to the small things to maintain that connection.

00:37:52.480 Absolutely.

00:37:53.240 But let's just talk about sex. 0.57

00:37:54.800 Sex is one of the reasons people get married. 0.99

00:37:57.780 I'd like to think it's one of the only reasons people get married. 0.64

00:37:59.780 I mean, otherwise it's a roommate.

00:38:01.020 Right.

00:38:01.540 Because I have to tell you, if sex is no longer part of your marriage, I'm not quite sure why you're married.

00:38:06.820 I mean, look, if both of you were just, okay, yeah, cool, sex isn't part of it anymore.

00:38:10.020 But then you're just roommates.

00:38:11.580 Or you're two people running a daycare facility together.

00:38:13.980 You know, sex is the thing that makes you a couple.

00:38:18.860 It's the thing that makes you a romantic coupling is that sexual connection.

00:38:23.480 So why would you want to give that up if you don't have to?

00:38:26.600 Why would you want to compromise on that if you don't have to?

00:38:29.240 Especially if you knew that it ultimately became something that was a huge marriage killer when people's needs were not being met.

00:38:36.280 When you talk to someone whose needs are being met in their relationship, particularly their sexual needs, if they're being very well met, that person is usually going to have a very high level of satisfaction.

00:38:48.580 But it can be a source of marital conflict. 0.93

00:38:52.460 What are the biggest issues you've seen in couples that are divorcing when it comes to sex?

00:38:57.480 Yeah.

00:38:57.860 I mean, I think it's different for men and women.

00:39:00.100 I know it's not popular to gender things, but I feel that one of the things I like about your podcast is I can speak in the terms of the masculine and the feminine.

00:39:07.000 And I appreciate that.

00:39:08.340 I really do believe, and of course, nothing's true for everyone, but I genuinely believe that a lot of men complain about the frequency of sex, that they're not having as much sex as they'd like.

00:39:20.060 And a lot of women complain about the lack of love and intimacy and connection that leaves them feeling less interested in having a desirable sexual connection to their partner. 0.99

00:39:31.780 So what do you do if there is a mismatch in your sexual relationship?

00:39:35.380 Like maybe it's over the frequency of sex, but it could be over something like, you know, the husband likes one thing or, you know, wants to experiment with something, but the wife doesn't or vice versa.

00:39:45.980 And maybe you try to have a conversation about it, but there's still a mismatch.

00:39:50.020 Is it just a matter of figuring out a compromise?

00:39:52.600 Yeah.

00:39:53.000 I mean, there's a chapter in my book called Go Without or Go Elsewhere.

00:39:56.280 And I think you have to decide for yourself which of those two you're going to do.

00:39:59.320 I think if you've communicated your need to your partner and it's an important thing to you, then you either are going to have to go without or go elsewhere.

00:40:07.720 And the question you have to ask that only you can answer is which of those two are you comfortable with?

00:40:14.260 I mean, look, the example I give in the book is feet.

00:40:16.880 I'm not into feet.

00:40:17.960 I don't understand the sexual appeal of feet, but there's a lot of people into feet. 0.99

00:40:21.480 And it's like a thing, you know, and I've done a lot of divorces where I've had to read people's emails about feet with the people they were cheating with.

00:40:27.520 It's like a whole vocabulary for it.

00:40:29.360 If you ever go down that rabbit hole online, it's really quite a lot.

00:40:32.060 And I'm not king-shaming anybody.

00:40:33.800 Listen, there's so many varieties of the human sexual experience.

00:40:36.820 God bless.

00:40:37.460 You know, consenting adults, have a good time.

00:40:40.160 But the truth is, if my partner was super into feet and said to me, listen, I just, this is such an important piece to me.

00:40:51.920 Okay, well, my partner now has a choice because I'm not into feet.

00:40:55.160 They either got to go without or they're going to go someplace else to get that need met.

00:41:00.620 Now, I don't want them to go to somebody else to get that need met.

00:41:03.560 Okay, so listen, can I fake it?

00:41:05.980 Can I say, all right, listen, I'm not super into that.

00:41:08.440 But if it's something that, you know, it's going to scratch your itch, like I can pretend I'm into it.

00:41:11.660 I mean, listen, how many people don't like some member of their spouse's family, but they act like they like them when they have to go to a barbecue with them?

00:41:18.820 And do you go, oh, that's so dishonest.

00:41:20.500 I can't believe you acted like you like Cousin Greg when you don't, you know, like, no, you're being a considerate partner, you know, and maybe you get in the car and you say to your spouse, like, oh, I can't stand him.

00:41:31.200 But, you know, I think I did a good job of, like, seeming like, oh, yeah, yeah, no, and I appreciate it.

00:41:35.040 You know, you keep things calm in the family.

00:41:36.680 Yeah, no, no, it's cool.

00:41:37.780 Like, we make compromises all the time.

00:41:39.760 Like, listen, if you're, maybe you don't love every single thing that they love, but you sit through it or you go, okay, I'm going to throw this into the repertoire so they don't have to go elsewhere or even have any temptation to go elsewhere if it's something important to them.

00:41:54.800 Or it might just be something passing and small to you where you think you'd like this thing.

00:41:59.780 I mean, how many things sexually, ask yourself the question honestly.

00:42:02.880 If you've had, you know, a good sexual relationship with a partner where you've been able to experiment and if you're a man like I am who was raised on pornography and, you know, has seen all kinds of things and you go, oh, boy, that would be fun to do.

00:42:15.180 And you've got a partner who goes, all right, yeah, let's do it sometime.

00:42:17.620 And then you do it and you go, that was, like, weird.

00:42:19.740 I don't know.

00:42:20.100 It looked really good. 0.98

00:42:21.220 Best example ever is shower sex. 0.99

00:42:23.080 Shower sex looks awesome. 1.00

00:42:25.140 You watch any movie, people have sex in the shower. 0.99

00:42:27.580 It looks so passionate. 0.98

00:42:28.440 Anyone who's ever had sex in the shower is going to say it's the worst possible place to have sex. 0.82

00:42:31.860 You're washed off every natural lubrication either person has. 0.91

00:42:34.860 It's the worst.

00:42:35.780 You're slipping or you can't get traction.

00:42:37.960 But it looks nice.

00:42:39.480 Now, again, are there people who probably enjoy it?

00:42:41.660 Good.

00:42:41.940 God bless.

00:42:42.640 But the truth is what you think it's going to be for you and what it is.

00:42:45.920 But the only way you're going to figure that out is to do it.

00:42:48.860 And then you go, oh, yeah, that wasn't as amazing as I thought it was.

00:42:51.780 And it saves you the trouble of saying, you know what, what if?

00:42:56.760 What if the grass on the other side of the sexual fence was greener?

00:43:00.200 It's not.

00:43:00.820 It's just more grass.

00:43:02.400 It's just a different grass.

00:43:04.080 And so help your partner and help yourself identify what really is compelling and what's really meaningful.

00:43:12.380 Which reminds me, C.S. Lewis, in a book he wrote, I forgot which one it was.

00:43:17.860 But he has this idea, he talks about submission in a marriage.

00:43:20.500 And he says it's actually a mutual submission.

00:43:22.620 It's like a dance.

00:43:23.420 The husband and wife had to take turns submitting to each other.

00:43:26.600 And this is not just about sex.

00:43:28.620 It's other things too.

00:43:29.720 But it's the same sort of idea.

00:43:30.860 You have to look at your spouse and say, what do they want? 0.99

00:43:34.480 What do they need?

00:43:35.260 And how can I give them that?

00:43:36.740 And then hopefully in a healthy relationship, a healthy marriage, your spouse is doing the same thing.

00:43:41.860 What do they want?

00:43:42.500 How can I give them that thing that they need or want?

00:43:45.640 And you take turns doing that.

00:43:46.880 I think sometimes you've got to be Beyonce and sometimes you get to be Destiny's Child.

00:43:50.880 Sometimes you get to be the Commodore.

00:43:52.180 Sometimes you get to be Lionel Richie.

00:43:53.480 And in the right dance of a marriage, you're following and leading in different ways.

00:43:59.800 You have different.

00:44:00.880 And again, that's a dynamic that two people should not be afraid to work on together honestly.

00:44:07.260 I think we're creating a culture where men are ashamed to admit that they like to be dominant and they're ashamed to admit that they like to sometimes be submissive in things.

00:44:20.320 And when I say submissive, I mean that they like to defer decision making.

00:44:24.400 There are aspects of my life I am submissive and I'm a very dominant person, but I don't care what couch we have.

00:44:32.700 I've had the same couch probably for 10 years.

00:44:34.880 If you ask me what color it is, I couldn't possibly tell you.

00:44:37.180 My partner picked it out.

00:44:38.260 I didn't pick it out.

00:44:39.140 I have no idea.

00:44:40.460 Like I don't pay attention to those things.

00:44:42.540 So if you say to me, if you're my partner and you say to me, hey, you know, what do you think of this couch?

00:44:49.000 I'm humoring you when I go, I don't know.

00:44:51.140 What do you think of it?

00:44:52.020 Well, I really like it.

00:44:52.860 Yeah, no, I like it too.

00:44:54.060 You know, I'm being submissive in that aspect of our relationship because I just don't care, you know.

00:44:58.840 But there are other aspects where I am very much a very take charge, very dominant type of a person.

00:45:04.380 And so I think we should all be able to do that dance together.

00:45:11.280 What is that about?

00:45:12.420 Submission is about trust.

00:45:14.540 I mean, you know, we have all this talk about alpha males and chads and, you know, all the stuff that's sort of in the manosphere.

00:45:20.760 And what's humorous to me about it is a lot of it's about trust.

00:45:26.380 And trust is about being worthy of trust.

00:45:29.000 You know, being the kind of man who a woman can lean into and submit to.

00:45:34.400 You know, how do you expect a woman to feel comfortable deferring to your view on something or trusting your judgment if that's not worthy, right? 0.74

00:45:47.400 I mean, I have always found as a man that I like to pick the restaurant.

00:45:53.260 But I like to pick the restaurant that she's going to want to go to.

00:45:58.340 And actually, my favorite thing is to pick the restaurant that she's going to want to go to that she doesn't know she's going to want to go to.

00:46:06.980 That she doesn't know how much she's going to love it until we get there because I know her so well that I know that she just went, oh, yeah, no, I don't think I'll like that.

00:46:16.920 But I secretly, I know she's going to like it.

00:46:18.940 She just needs that little push, you know.

00:46:21.100 And what is that?

00:46:21.880 That's being trustworthy.

00:46:23.480 That's having this person's best interests in mind.

00:46:27.240 And I want a partner who has that view of me and I want to have that view of my partner always.

00:46:33.000 Okay, so we've talked about sex.

00:46:34.920 Let's talk about another source of marital conflict and that's money. 1.00

00:46:38.460 How have you seen money cause marital conflict in your work?

00:46:42.100 Yeah, money again is about trust and about communication.

00:46:45.220 I think it's like infidelity in the sense that it's about trusting someone and then being betrayed in that trust.

00:46:52.440 But, again, it's not a simple good guys and bad guys situation because very often, you know, people will say, well, he was lying about the finances and he should have just told me the truth.

00:47:04.700 And so, really, would you have been receptive to that?

00:47:06.680 Like if he'd said, hey, look, you're spending more than I can make or I'm doing my best to make as much as I can but my business has changed, would you have met that with a lot?

00:47:15.020 Like, oh, of course, babe, and I'm still going to be as excited and happy in our marriage as I was before.

00:47:19.560 So I think it's the same kind of thing.

00:47:20.900 It's very easy after someone has been caught cheating saying, well, if you just told me that you wanted different things in our sexual relationship, I would have been there for you.

00:47:29.580 Sure, you would have been.

00:47:30.760 No, you wouldn't.

00:47:31.260 If you would have judged me, you would have denied me of it, you wouldn't have done that.

00:47:35.480 You're only saying that now because it's easy to say it in retrospect.

00:47:38.320 Same thing with finances.

00:47:39.540 Finances, very hard to be honest about finances, about the workload, about who manages the finances and the trust that comes with that.

00:47:48.860 If you share a household and you share finances, that's a tremendous intimacy.

00:47:54.840 It's a tremendous loss of privacy in terms of if you have purely joint finances.

00:48:00.280 I actually encourage people in my book, there's a chapter called The You, The Me, and The We, where I encourage people to maintain separate accounts as well as joint accounts.

00:48:09.040 I think it's important to have a certain amount of autonomy in a relationship where if I buy you a birthday present, you don't get to see how much I spent on your birthday present necessarily or exactly where I bought it if we're using the same credit card.

00:48:22.340 So I think there is some value to having some privacy even when you're in a marriage and agreeing that, look, here's the money that's coming in.

00:48:31.220 Here's how much stays in my account.

00:48:32.500 Here's how much goes in your account.

00:48:33.500 And here's how much goes into our joint account.

00:48:35.060 And here are the bills we pay out of the joint account.

00:48:37.060 And here's the money that we spend out of our individual accounts.

00:48:39.240 And you can use that for manicures.

00:48:40.700 You can use that for spa days.

00:48:42.300 You can use that for classes that you want to take.

00:48:44.680 And I'm going to use this for my golf or I'm going to use it to sports gamble or I'm going to use it for gaming or whatever it is that I might want.

00:48:50.600 And that way everybody has a certain level of autonomy.

00:48:53.740 So I think finances, it's one of those things that we don't have a lot of formal education in it.

00:48:58.520 There's a lot of deception.

00:49:00.680 You know, there's a performative society where everybody's, you know, on the Instagram page with their luxury cars flying private.

00:49:07.520 And meanwhile, that's not real.

00:49:09.540 It's false a lot of the time or it's based on a debt structure that you're never going to see until it's too late and they're already bankrupt or it's based on a Ponzi scheme.

00:49:18.340 So I think it's the same kind of thing.

00:49:19.860 It's the same as sex. 0.95

00:49:21.180 It's something we don't like to talk about.

00:49:23.360 It's uncomfortable to talk about, which is why we should talk about it more.

00:49:27.280 So my wife and I, we have joint accounts and we haven't explicitly put like a money limit.

00:49:32.080 But for the most part, both my wife and I have just autonomy on buying stuff from the joint account.

00:49:37.540 But there's like a thing that's like expensive or like, oh boy, this is going to be a big thing.

00:49:42.020 Then we have the conversations like, well, I'd like to buy this thing, but here's the price tag.

00:49:46.420 Um, yeah, we do it.

00:49:47.960 And that, that, you run it like a business, which is if you've got an expense account, you know, at your business or you've got a company card and you're charging, you know, Dunkin' Donuts to bring to a client's, you know, okay.

00:49:58.960 Well, then you don't have to, but if I'm buying a $500 bottle of wine for a client, I need prior authorization from the office, you know?

00:50:04.900 And I think that's pretty reasonable is to say, hey, what's the limit?

00:50:07.980 And by the way, you can increase that limit as your income goes up.

00:50:11.340 You know, there's a time early on where it's like, hey, 50 bucks.

00:50:14.600 If it's more than that, we got to talk about it.

00:50:16.500 And maybe you get to a place where you go, yeah, if it's more than 10,000, we should have a conversation.

00:50:20.700 But if it's less than that, don't worry about it.

00:50:22.580 And I think that that's important.

00:50:23.900 It's all about communication.

00:50:25.140 Yeah.

00:50:25.300 So keep it open communication.

00:50:26.800 And then also one thing that happens in marriages is you get comfortable with roles, right?

00:50:32.300 So typically often what I've seen a lot of marriages be like, well, the husband doesn't want to think about the finances.

00:50:37.760 I'll just put the paycheck in the thing and the wife just worries about things. 1.00

00:50:40.740 Or it's like the husband takes care of all the investments and the wife's like, I don't like to do that stuff. 0.99

00:50:45.040 And that can cause problems because you don't have eyes on each other.

00:50:49.600 Sure.

00:50:49.820 And then when you finally discover, oh my gosh, you've been investing in this crazy Ponzi scheme and I haven't known about it.

00:50:55.900 And then that's when it blows up.

00:50:57.660 So you point out an important thing to do.

00:51:00.100 If you do set up roles where one person's taking care of finances and the other person's not worrying about it,

00:51:05.680 still make time where you get together regularly and say, hey,

00:51:09.140 here's what's going on with the investment portfolio, our retirement accounts,

00:51:13.280 or here's what's going on with the daily expenses for the kids, just so you know.

00:51:17.480 And that's important to do.

00:51:19.140 100%.

00:51:19.580 I mean, I think anything other than that's irresponsible.

00:51:22.060 You know, a simpler and less threatening analogy is if you're married to someone and they love to cook

00:51:28.660 and they just enjoy it, they learn to cook from their family, they enjoy cooking,

00:51:32.600 they find it satisfying, they love to watch you eat the food that they cooked.

00:51:35.600 That's amazing.

00:51:36.300 What a gift.

00:51:36.820 Wonderful thing to be married to someone who's a good cook. 1.00

00:51:39.140 But you still got to know how to cook for yourself.

00:51:41.480 There's going to be times where your partner's not there and able to cook for you.

00:51:44.180 They're going to be away.

00:51:44.980 They're going to be doing something else.

00:51:45.880 You need to know how to cook.

00:51:46.960 And maybe you don't need to know how to be a gourmet cook,

00:51:49.040 but you at least know how do I scramble an egg?

00:51:51.260 How do I make some spaghetti?

00:51:52.900 Right?

00:51:53.100 You got to know enough.

00:51:54.100 So, yeah, maybe they don't know, you know, how you have your investments hedged

00:51:59.760 and what index funds you're in versus what bond portfolio you have laddered.

00:52:04.100 But they certainly need to go, okay, here's where our accounts are and here's roughly how much is in them.

00:52:09.640 Here's what debts we have.

00:52:11.440 You know, if nothing else, you know, God forbid something happens to you.

00:52:15.240 They need to have access to that information, that basic information, because they're on that boat with you.

00:52:20.900 They're invested in this with you.

00:52:23.120 So, it's up to them to know it as well, too.

00:52:24.880 I am shocked at how many people come into my office and they go, yeah, my partner handed all the expenses.

00:52:30.780 I don't know anything.

00:52:31.540 I don't know where our money is.

00:52:32.620 I don't know what we spend on what.

00:52:33.880 I don't know.

00:52:34.340 And sometimes I have to tell them that, yeah, you look rich and you're poor. 0.95

00:52:38.600 You got white teeth and rotting gums.

00:52:40.580 Like, yeah, you got a beautiful car that is owned by a leasing company.

00:52:43.880 And you got a great house that the bank, it's 90% of it is leveraged debt to equity.

00:52:48.800 Like, this is the reality of your finances.

00:52:51.460 It is very dangerous to just hand everything over to another person.

00:52:55.620 I understand, again, the temptation to do it.

00:52:58.320 But long term, don't you want to have some sense of what's going on with your partner and their stresses as well?

00:53:05.520 Don't you want to understand?

00:53:06.920 Because I do think sometimes the stress that we carry about finances, it can translate to other disconnections within a marriage.

00:53:14.920 It can translate to other problems.

00:53:16.900 So it's important to stay connected on all spheres of your partner, their health, their economic health, their sexual health, where they're at, because you're with them on this thing.

00:53:27.360 Any other sources of marital conflict you've seen?

00:53:29.380 I think one you mentioned is in-laws can be a source or even friends.

00:53:33.700 Yeah, I don't think you're ever married to one person.

00:53:35.940 I think you marry a family.

00:53:38.360 Even if the family's not around, you're marrying a family history.

00:53:42.300 You're marrying the conflict resolution techniques that they watched their parents do successfully or unsuccessfully, the holiday traditions that they did, the baggage or the trauma.

00:53:54.240 If you're married to an adult child of an alcoholic, you're marrying the control issues, you're marrying all those other things.

00:53:59.760 I mean, the history of addiction that a family might have and that then might be carried through with the people that are there.

00:54:06.420 The role modeling they've seen of how couples should relate to each other, how people should argue and fight.

00:54:11.760 So I think it's very important to remember that you're marrying a person who is part of a tapestry, and it's important to sort of know what that tapestry is and understand the dynamics of it.

00:54:23.380 And, of course, if family members and friend systems are still part of this person's life, you're going to have to deal with those people.

00:54:30.780 You're going to have to deal with exes, you know, people who marry someone who's divorced and has children.

00:54:35.020 They have a co-parent you're going to have to deal with.

00:54:36.800 People are not an island, you know, you're marrying into a system, and having honest conversations about the challenges and opportunities created by that is a good thing.

00:54:48.660 Listen, it's not all a burden having a mother-in-law.

00:54:52.100 A mother-in-law can provide free babysitting.

00:54:54.180 A mother-in-law can be a tremendous ally in your relationship if you have a good relationship with her.

00:54:59.740 But it can also be a tremendous hindrance.

00:55:01.500 It could be someone who always takes your spouse's side or who's very critical of you or who you find it difficult to get along with.

00:55:05.800 None of these things are, in and of themselves, good or bad, but they're factors.

00:55:10.080 And I think just looking honestly at those factors, rather than just focusing on what cake we're going to have for the wedding, you know, is what's important.

00:55:19.240 And I think we should be mindful in our marriage, in our selection of a marriage partner, and in maintaining the health of our marriage.

00:55:26.740 And this is where that just sin mentality can come in handy, right?

00:55:29.260 So let's say you're newly married, and then, you know, you notice your mother-in-law, she's kind of a busy body, and she wants to inject herself into your marriage.

00:55:39.040 Instead of not saying anything and being resentful about it, like, tell your wife, like, you know what?

00:55:43.680 Your mom's great.

00:55:44.540 I love how she does this and does this.

00:55:46.020 But when she injects herself all the time into decisions we're making about, like, what house we should buy, I'm not comfortable.

00:55:52.420 That makes me feel upset.

00:55:53.320 Like, you have to get it out there in the open.

00:55:55.140 A hundred percent.

00:55:55.880 And I think that, but doing it in a way that doesn't put your partner on the defensive or that they've done something wrong, I think is important.

00:56:05.380 Because, again, constructive criticism is still criticism.

00:56:08.360 I think you, as a happily married man, you know, you showed a good little technique there, which is you started by saying, listen, I love your mom.

00:56:16.360 So you started with that.

00:56:17.900 Like, I love your mom.

00:56:18.600 I'm not saying I don't love your mom.

00:56:20.100 You know, no one's perfect.

00:56:21.060 I'm not perfect.

00:56:21.740 She's not perfect.

00:56:22.580 But, and then you use a lot of I statements.

00:56:25.380 You know, I felt very put off when she was saying A, B, and C.

00:56:29.720 So you're not saying, you know, she sticks her nose where it doesn't belong.

00:56:31.680 What you're saying is, listen, I felt this way because who's going to argue with your feelings?

00:56:37.820 Like, you feel the way you feel.

00:56:39.280 You can apologize for feeling the way you feel, but, you know, you feel the way you feel.

00:56:43.380 And maybe your partner will say to you, no, no, you shouldn't feel that way because this is how she relates to everyone.

00:56:49.640 Or here's some examples of, you know, you know she loves my dad, but here's how she talked to him about the house.

00:56:55.180 Or this is just the house thing.

00:56:56.320 Or, oh, this comes from the fact that my dad never let her pick the house.

00:56:59.560 So now she's kind of working that out with us in our house.

00:57:02.820 And sometimes understanding the context, you know, when it's explained to me that, you know, my family member went through the depression and that's why this person keeps the tinfoil.

00:57:12.860 I was like, all right, I'm not going to make fun of that anymore because I understand the context of it.

00:57:16.640 Or, oh, yeah, this person, their father died at the kitchen table when they were seven years old of a massive heart attack.

00:57:22.340 So that's why they're very sensitive to loud noises.

00:57:24.980 You know, like, okay, man, I know that context now.

00:57:27.420 I'm going to interpret that very differently. 0.99

00:57:28.960 I'm not going to look at it like, oh, your mom thinks I'm an idiot and I can't pick a house. 0.96

00:57:32.360 No, my mom is working her stuff out and the stuff in her marriage to my dad. 0.96

00:57:38.300 And, you know, then you kind of look at that with compassion and with empathy and with love, you know.

00:57:42.780 And that might help you navigate it, you know.

00:57:45.160 But you've got to give your partner the opportunity to explain it to you rather than what do most people do.

00:57:49.800 Just suck it up, hold it in, get pissed.

00:57:52.880 And when six months later you get an argument about the best way to get to the mall from your house, it turns into, you know, and your mother, you sound just like her and you just know everything, just like your mom does when it comes to houses.

00:58:03.740 And you're like, whoa, how long have you been carrying that around?

00:58:07.580 You know, why didn't we talk about it when it happened?

00:58:09.920 And why don't we talk about it in a way that wasn't this fight, this attack on each other?

00:58:14.440 Why didn't we talk about it in a way where we're supporting each other and saying, like, hey, look, man, you know, that hurt.

00:58:20.640 That hurt when your mom said that.

00:58:21.880 Or, man, it hurt when you took your mom's side on that.

00:58:23.860 I feel like I expect you to take my side and maybe that's wrong of me.

00:58:27.440 But, man, it hurt.

00:58:28.980 That really, like, that's a – I want to know.

00:58:31.460 I want to know if I hurt my partner.

00:58:33.300 I know I didn't mean to.

00:58:34.680 I know I didn't mean to.

00:58:35.960 I know that that's not my goal, you know.

00:58:38.300 I know that the people I love, I know I love them and I don't want to hurt them.

00:58:43.160 I'm sure I do hurt them from time to time.

00:58:45.840 But I'm really grateful when they have the courage to tell me that I hurt them because I know I didn't mean to and I know I wouldn't want to do it again and again and again.

00:58:54.580 So I'm really grateful when they tell me how I might have missed the target.

00:58:59.240 So people often get married to raise a family, have kids, but kids can change a marriage.

00:59:04.860 And instead of thinking of your spouse just as a sexual partner, a person who is there to help you, you know, be the best you can be, right, you see them as, okay, they're a mother as well.

00:59:17.540 And that changes the dynamic.

00:59:19.040 How have you seen kids unintentionally harm a marriage?

00:59:23.980 And what can you do to avoid that?

00:59:26.180 Yeah, that's a great question.

00:59:27.540 Kids are, I think, antagonistic to a marriage in many ways.

00:59:30.760 I mean, of course, there's certain aspects of being a parent that I think very much can deepen a relationship and a bond and a love between people.

00:59:37.180 So I'm certainly not saying don't have children.

00:59:39.320 But I do think that, look, people, A, are sleep-deprived when they first have children.

00:59:44.040 Their bodies, you know, particularly a woman, her body changes tremendously and feels out of control in many ways after she's had a baby and changes people's sexual habits. 0.99

00:59:52.140 I mean, there's all kinds of things that come from that.

00:59:53.720 But also, I just think it's easy to become two people running a daycare facility together, just focused on the kids' needs above anything else, forgetting that that sexual chemistry and romantic connection between the two of you is the thing that created this child's existence.

01:00:12.460 It was born of your romantic and sexual connection.

01:00:16.120 I mean, children are born of a sexual romantic connection.

01:00:19.740 And so I think it's important not to lose that.

01:00:22.340 I think people who are divorced in a friendly fashion are on to something that I don't think you have to get divorced to enjoy.

01:00:32.940 And that is, and I say this as a man who, my kids were five and seven when I got divorced.

01:00:37.220 And it was a friendly divorce.

01:00:38.760 I lived down the street from my ex-wife and we had a very friendly relationship and the kids were able to go back and forth very comfortably.

01:00:45.120 And I had time where I had my kids and I gave them my full focus.

01:00:50.100 And then I had time where I did not have to think about my kids.

01:00:54.220 They were with the other person who loves them as much as I do.

01:00:57.580 And I could really just focus on career or life or other relationships.

01:01:01.660 And that was a phenomenal, phenomenal thing.

01:01:04.620 And I don't think you have to be divorced to do that.

01:01:06.900 I think that you and your spouse, it's really important when you have kids to say there's time as a family and there's time as individuals.

01:01:14.220 And I want you to have some time where I'm going to mind these kids and you go be you.

01:01:21.700 Whether it's go to Starbucks and read a magazine or go to a yoga class or go to the gym or just go enjoy yourself, go out with your friends.

01:01:30.040 Like remember the you you were when I fell in love with you that then led to these kids being born.

01:01:36.560 And I think that's a really important thing.

01:01:38.220 I like that.

01:01:39.000 So you're going to stay married, but you're going to do a split custody. 0.94

01:01:42.380 Exactly right.

01:01:43.240 Do joint custody and really lean into that and get a sense of what it's like to be in the fullness of yourself.

01:01:50.360 And also give your kids a taste of what it's like to have you alone.

01:01:54.400 You know, one parent alone.

01:01:55.520 Anybody who has more than one child will tell you when you go out with one child as opposed to both or multiple children, you get a different kid.

01:02:02.860 Yeah.

01:02:03.060 You know, because a different side of them comes out.

01:02:05.120 They're not competing for each other's attention.

01:02:06.900 Something my wife and I do. 0.68

01:02:08.040 We do a weekly marriage meeting and we've written an article about this and we've done a podcast about it.

01:02:12.820 We'll put a link to it in the show notes.

01:02:14.160 But the weekly marriage meetings on Sunday, it takes about 15 minutes.

01:02:17.700 It's not very long.

01:02:19.120 It starts off with appreciation.

01:02:20.600 So we just tell each other like, hey, this is what I appreciated this week that you did.

01:02:23.820 Thank you for doing this.

01:02:24.580 I love that.

01:02:25.520 Then we talk about to-dos.

01:02:26.840 This is basically household stuff.

01:02:28.080 This is like the business part of the marriage.

01:02:29.880 Things that need to get done around the house.

01:02:31.160 It's bills that need to be paid, stuff that needs to happen with the kids.

01:02:34.160 But then we do this plan for good times.

01:02:36.040 And it's plan for good times as a family, but then also plan for good times as an individual.

01:02:40.900 I love that.

01:02:41.320 So it's like, hey, it's a chance to be like, I want to do this thing with my friends or I want to go to this event by myself or whatever.

01:02:47.960 Can we make that happen this week or in the next couple of weeks?

01:02:50.420 I love that.

01:02:50.960 You do the same thing for your spouse.

01:02:51.960 Like give them a chance.

01:02:52.560 What do you want to do this week on your own?

01:02:54.720 But what are you doing there, Brett?

01:02:56.180 You're really doing the you, the me, and the we.

01:02:58.180 You know, you're saying like, what do you need to be the fullness of you and what can I do to support that?

01:03:03.360 What do I need to be the fullness of me and what can you do to support that?

01:03:06.640 And then what can we do together?

01:03:08.460 And we're making time to identify what we're doing right and what we could do better.

01:03:13.260 And giving each other, you know, that kind of fearless communication, that kind of sort of, you know, that commitment to us as individuals and us as a unit is really, I think, the key.

01:03:27.800 And it's exactly the sort of thing that'll keep you out of my office, which is great.

01:03:30.720 So another reason that can cause marital conflict or that can lead people to your office is they just kind of become indifferent.

01:03:38.660 It's really sad.

01:03:39.540 They just become indifferent to the marriage and indifferent to their spouse.

01:03:44.560 And I think we've kind of been talking about like, it's little things that lead to that indifference.

01:03:48.340 It's just not paying attention.

01:03:50.000 And here a lot of people talk about marriage.

01:03:53.340 It's like, man, marriage is the hardest thing I've ever done.

01:03:55.560 It's really, really hard, man.

01:03:56.960 And you argue that marriage is actually pretty dang easy because it just comes down to, you just got to care.

01:04:03.480 You just have to pay attention.

01:04:04.240 That's it.

01:04:05.040 Yeah.

01:04:05.660 Yeah.

01:04:05.940 I just think that if you're finding marriage very, very difficult, I don't think you're doing it right.

01:04:12.580 I really just don't think you're doing it right.

01:04:14.540 Because the people that I know that have very satisfying, happy marriages, yes, they work at it.

01:04:20.800 Like I work at my job, but I love my job.

01:04:23.980 I enjoy my work.

01:04:25.120 Like I find it overall very satisfying.

01:04:28.260 Yeah, there's effort involved.

01:04:29.600 It's challenging at times, but it's not drudgery.

01:04:33.140 You know, and I think if your marriage is drudgery, if your marriage is more often than not an unpleasant thing you have to attend to rather than something that's adding value to your life, I think you have to ask some hard questions at that point.

01:04:46.140 Because you're either doing it wrong or you're married to the wrong person.

01:04:48.740 So yeah, do the note thing.

01:04:50.240 Yeah.

01:04:50.680 Note thing's a good call.

01:04:51.580 Well, and those kinds of check-in meetings, I think you're onto something with that.

01:04:54.720 And it's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about in the book when I talk about hitting send now or having like walk and talks.

01:05:00.360 Well, James, this has been a great conversation.

01:05:01.920 Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

01:05:04.640 Yeah, the book's available.

01:05:05.800 You know, everywhere books are available.

01:05:07.020 If you want to listen to me talk for eight and a half hours, you know, you can go to Audible and download it.

01:05:12.460 The audio book sells really well.

01:05:14.220 I don't know if that has any, I don't think it has anything to do with my voice.

01:05:16.740 I think it just has to do with the way people consume media.

01:05:19.340 You can find a little bit about me on Instagram, which is NYC Divorce Lawyer.

01:05:25.440 I don't post there often.

01:05:26.760 I avoid social media like the plague to some degree.

01:05:30.260 But certainly there's information about my firm and my work.

01:05:33.280 And when I do media appearances, television and things like that, we post it on the firm's website, which is NYC, like New York City, NYC Divorces, plural, divorces.com.

01:05:43.320 So NYC Divorces.com or JJSESQ.com.

01:05:47.280 That's James Joseph Sexton, JJSESQ.com.

01:05:49.680 But any of those places is a good place to find out what I'm up to.

01:05:53.420 Fantastic.

01:05:53.840 Well, James Sexton, thanks for your time.

01:05:54.980 It's been a pleasure.

01:05:55.880 Thanks for having me, Brett.

01:05:56.780 Appreciate it.

01:05:57.780 My guest today was James Sexton.

01:05:59.080 He's the author of the book, If You're in My Office, It's Already Too Late, A Divorce Lawyer's Guide to Staying Together.

01:06:03.660 It's available on Amazon.com.

01:06:05.480 You can find more information about his work at his website, NYCDivorces.com.

01:06:09.540 Also check out our show notes at AOM.is slash stay together, where you can find links to resources where you delve deeper into this topic.

01:06:17.920 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast.

01:06:20.640 Make sure to check out our website at artofmanliness.com.

01:06:23.060 Where you can find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles that we've written over the years about pretty much anything you think of.

01:06:28.520 And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate it if you take one minute to give us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

01:06:32.520 It helps out a lot.

01:06:33.240 And if you've done that already, thank you.

01:06:34.840 Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who would think we could get something out of it.

01:06:38.640 As always, thank you for the continued support.

01:06:40.480 Until next time, it's Brett McKay.

01:06:42.020 Remind you to try to listen to the AOM Podcast.

01:06:43.920 Put what you've heard into action.

01:06:45.520 Take care.

01:06:47.400 Word.

01:06:47.900 Thanks for having me.

01:06:51.240 achen we are, you know.

01:06:52.180 It's good, cara.

01:06:52.600 We're artık.

01:06:54.140 Senf! 1.00

01:06:54.760 Take care.

01:06:55.260 Nazve!

01:06:56.500 We're not here.

01:06:57.200 We're not here.

01:06:58.200 We're not here.

01:06:59.160 You're not here.

01:06:59.900 We're not here anymore.

01:07:01.280 We're not here to pray.

01:07:02.240 We're here.

01:07:02.760 We're not here.

01:07:03.280 We're never here.

01:07:03.800 We're not here.

01:07:04.480 We're not here.

01:07:04.800 We're not here.

01:07:05.740 We're here.

01:07:08.300 We're not here.

01:07:09.260 We're here.

01:07:09.780 We're here.

01:07:10.360 We're here.

01:07:11.180 We're here.

01:07:11.220 We're here.

01:07:11.440 We're here to go.

01:07:12.560 We're here.

01:07:12.880 We're here.

01:07:14.300 We're here.

The Art of Manliness - August 16, 2023

Advice on Making Love Last . . . From a Divorce Lawyer

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript