The Art of Manliness - An Undercover Cop’s Tips on How to Influence Others and Navigate Life

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.220 It's not uncommon for former law enforcement officers and intelligence agents to write

00:00:15.120 self-help books where they share how the lessons they learned in their professional careers

00:00:18.580 can apply to people in any walk of life. What is rare is for one of these officers turned

00:00:23.360 authors to publicly prove they know what they're talking about and that their tips work as Derek

00:00:27.340 Vassar did by winning the reality show Big Brother. Derek is a former undercover detective,

00:00:32.460 current private investigator, and the author of The Undercover Edge. Find your hidden strengths,

00:00:37.560 learn to adapt, and build the confidence to win life's game. Today on the show, Derek shares how

00:00:42.560 he became an undercover police officer, what he learned from that job, how he applied those

00:00:46.700 lessons on Big Brother, and how you can use similar techniques to influence others, know when someone's

00:00:51.200 lying, and bounce back from adversity. After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is

00:00:56.040 slash undercover.

00:00:57.340 All right, Derek Vassar, welcome to the show.

00:01:09.700 Thanks for having me, Brett.

00:01:10.880 So you've had a really interesting career, and I want to talk about this because you wrote a book

00:01:16.800 about it, and you provide some lessons to just regular people from your career. You started working

00:01:23.800 for the police at a really young age. I was surprised how young you were when you started.

00:01:28.160 So how old were you when you signed up, and what nudged you towards a career in law enforcement?

00:01:31.800 I was 20 years old, so not even old enough to buy my own bullets. I actually had to have

00:01:36.600 the police department provide my ammunition at that point. So that was an interesting way to start my

00:01:42.860 career. The guys that were older than me on the job really loved that. I have to say, you know, when it came to,

00:01:48.420 like, like, nudging me into law enforcement, I didn't necessarily have any ambitions to be a cop

00:01:53.400 before the year leading up to that whole chain of events where I was in college. I was going for a two-year

00:02:01.600 degree. I was playing baseball. I was getting ready to transfer to a four-year school, and the summer between

00:02:07.360 my sophomore and junior year, I had just finished my criminal justice degree, my associate's degree.

00:02:13.200 The chief of police for the police department I ended up working for was a longtime friend of mine.

00:02:17.580 I grew up in the city where I eventually worked, and he knew me, and I had a pretty troubled childhood

00:02:22.620 in some ways. My parents were good, but I got into a lot of fights, and the chief was someone who,

00:02:27.660 as a patrolman, always looked out for me, was kind of a role model, was someone I looked up to, and so

00:02:32.180 over that summer, when I was getting ready to go into my junior year, his name was, his name is Joe

00:02:38.060 Moran. He said, hey, why don't you apply for the police department? Give it a shot just to kind of

00:02:42.540 get your feet wet and see what it's like, and, you know, when you're done with your bachelor's degree,

00:02:47.220 maybe you come back. I don't think you're going to get hired this time around, but it would be great

00:02:51.360 for the experience. So I ended up taking the test, and it was about 300 or 400 people there, and to make

00:02:57.580 a long story short, about three, four months after going through all the testing, the physical, the

00:03:02.440 mental, the psychological, he calls me up and says, hey, I need you to come to the police station.

00:03:08.140 So I go to the police station, and I'm expecting him just to tell me, like, hey, here's where you

00:03:11.360 did well. Here's where you didn't do well. This is what you should work on in the future, and he goes,

00:03:16.360 you know, come on in. Sit down, and he says, listen, I'm in a really interesting predicament right now

00:03:21.480 because I had no intention on hiring you, and yet you finished first overall out of everyone.

00:03:28.120 So I also cannot not hire you because what's my reasoning for not hiring you other than you're

00:03:35.020 young? So at this point, if you feel that you're ready, I'd like to offer you the position, and at

00:03:41.240 that time, I was 20 years old, broke, really not going anywhere in my baseball career. I was okay,

00:03:48.320 but I wasn't going to play professional, and I loved the idea of giving back to my community,

00:03:53.520 so I decided to take that leap, and it was one of the best decisions I ever made.

00:03:58.320 So you started working for the department. Then you started doing undercover work. How did that happen?

00:04:04.000 Well, again, Joe Moran is going to be a common theme in my law enforcement career story.

00:04:08.480 It's my 21st birthday. Now, a little backtrack. When you go to the police academy, you're there in

00:04:14.260 Rhode Island with police officers from all other agencies. Everyone goes to the one police academy.

00:04:18.400 So word got back to these other police departments that there was this really young kid who was in

00:04:23.860 their academy with them, and not only was I young, but I looked even younger. And so I get this call

00:04:29.900 on my 21st birthday. I had a couple of celebratory drinks the night before. I get a call from Joe

00:04:34.640 Moran in my hotel room, and he says, listen, there's something going down at a local university.

00:04:39.200 They believe there might be some drugs, maybe some date rape drugs being distributed throughout the

00:04:42.900 school. I got a call from a certain police department. They heard about you. They'd like

00:04:48.240 you to pose as a student and see what you can find. Obviously, that's the dream, right? Like

00:04:53.800 when you grow up, when you're thinking about being a cop at all, you're not thinking about,

00:04:57.800 you know, the patrolmen who are writing tickets. You're thinking about bad boys. You're thinking

00:05:00.640 about Will Smith and Martin Lawrence, right? So when he says that to me, that's like music to my ears.

00:05:05.600 I basically ditch all my friends and go right into the police department, end up doing the

00:05:10.160 undercover operation, and it was extremely successful. We ended up arresting 11 people,

00:05:14.360 identifying even more individuals than they initially thought. And I caught the bug. I had

00:05:19.800 the itch, and I knew right then and there, that's where I wanted to go with my career. Now,

00:05:24.080 as a patrolman still at that point, you can't just jump into detective work. But what happened with me

00:05:28.600 was as I was learning how to be a patrolman, I was also working for different agencies in a short-term

00:05:34.120 capacity as an undercover detective. So as my career progressed, and I reached a point where I was

00:05:40.040 eligible to be in the narcotics division full-time, it was kind of a clear transition that I was going

00:05:45.440 to be the next up for that spot, which happened. And I did another four or five years as a narcotics

00:05:50.580 detective and then two years as a sergeant of narcotics. And it was probably the best part of

00:05:54.780 my career. Yeah. So it sounded like you had the 21 Jump Street, you know, transition to undercover

00:06:00.340 work. You infiltrated younger people. Yep. That was my niche. And everyone has a niche, right? Like

00:06:05.460 depending on what the job dictates or what the, what the, the case involves, you need a different

00:06:10.520 undercover officer. And for me, that's the role that I played. And there wasn't a lot of people

00:06:15.220 on the job that fit that role. They either looked like too much like a cop or they acted too much

00:06:19.500 like a cop and it just, they couldn't infiltrate those certain areas. So I had, I was, I was in high

00:06:25.040 demand when I first started. That was for sure. Then you ended up as a contestant and winning

00:06:30.680 big brother. How did that happen? So I was 30 years old. And when I was on my deeper portion

00:06:37.480 of my undercover career, when I was really under there and I was doing a lot, I couldn't really

00:06:42.500 go out a lot. And so I would be at home and to be at home with my wife and I was looking for stuff

00:06:47.100 to watch. And I ended up stumbling upon this show called big brother. And I really got into it. And

00:06:51.880 part of the reason I really got into is because I think a lot of us find shows that we think we would

00:06:56.900 be good at. So we like to watch and critique the people that are playing it. And I remember

00:07:00.760 multiple occasions where I would say to my wife, Oh man, if I wasn't a police officer, I would

00:07:04.740 absolutely kill the show. I'd be, I do so well. And everyone's like, yeah, sure, buddy. Sure you

00:07:09.020 would. So when I got out of narcotics work and I was a Sergeant, it was my 30th birthday and it was

00:07:14.080 a bucket list. So I basically just sent in a video. I didn't even send in the proper amount of time,

00:07:18.320 but it was just to say I did it. And I, I started my video by saying, you know, I was an undercover

00:07:23.960 detective. I have a business degree. And if you put me on the show, I'm going to win.

00:07:28.820 And within like two weeks, I got a call back and the big brother people said, Oh, you think it's

00:07:34.680 that easy, huh? You think you're going to come on the show? We're just going to come out here.

00:07:37.240 You're going to control everything. And I said, no, I'm probably going to lose right away. And they

00:07:41.980 said, what you said in your audition tape that you're going to win. I said, no, I said what I needed

00:07:46.860 to say to get you to call me and here you are. And they said, Oh, okay. Yeah. You need to come to

00:07:52.920 New York. And then the kind of the process went from there. So it wasn't what I planned to happen,

00:07:57.880 but it worked out. It really did. And it was a great experience. Big brother was an awesome

00:08:01.540 experience. When you win the money, it's, it's hard not to enjoy what's happening.

00:08:05.480 And did you use your experience as an undercover officer to help you win big brother?

00:08:09.440 Absolutely. So for anybody who doesn't know, big brother is basically 16 people in a house for a

00:08:14.100 hundred days and each week someone goes home. And during that time you have to develop alliances and

00:08:19.160 build relationships. And I went into the house and told them that I was a parks and recreation

00:08:23.380 coordinator. Didn't even tell them I was undercover cop. And I used my ability to read people and

00:08:28.400 communicate with people and find commonalities with individuals that you may not necessarily

00:08:31.780 get along with to build relationships that were bigger than just our alliances. They became

00:08:36.080 actual friendships. Some of those friendships I have till this day. And it wasn't until after the

00:08:40.620 votes were locked in that I revealed to the entire cast that I was an undercover detective.

00:08:44.720 And it was a, it was a great TV moment. That's awesome. So what have you been doing since then?

00:08:49.960 So after big brother, I went right back to being a police officer. I had no ambitions to be on TV.

00:08:55.080 I won the show. I got what I wanted out of it. I went back to work, but I had an agent reach out

00:08:59.300 to me. I had, you know, you have a bunch of people reach out to you afterwards and they all have these

00:09:02.380 big plans for you. And I wasn't buying any of it, but I had one agent, Harry Gold, who's still my

00:09:07.740 agent to this day, reach out and say, Hey, you know, you should be back on TV. And I said, nah, I'm not

00:09:12.540 interested in any of these shows. I did my one show. I'm done. And he said, what about true crime?

00:09:17.300 I said, what's true crime? He said, listen, just come out to LA. Let me, let me grab your ear.

00:09:22.060 So I go out to LA and he tells me about this project involving OJ Simpson, where there's a

00:09:26.540 private investigator who believes he's innocent and he can prove it. So they hired me for the show for

00:09:31.500 discovery. It was a six part series. And I said, screw it. Let's try it. Did the show. It did extremely

00:09:37.500 well. And they decided to give me my own show breaking homicide. At that point, I had about

00:09:42.500 three years back on the job since big brother. And it became a little difficult to do both. I was

00:09:46.760 traveling all over the world. I had gotten my private investigators license at that point. So

00:09:50.680 I could work nationally, not just in my own jurisdiction. And I had to make the decision

00:09:55.120 as to whether or not I was going to stay a cop or I was going to pursue this career as a private

00:09:59.620 investigator slash analyst, you know, TV host, whatever you want to call it. So since then I've

00:10:04.280 left the job, I left the job in 2017 after 13 years, I opened my own private investigator

00:10:08.820 firm that year, which is still in business. We've been in business for about seven, eight

00:10:12.520 years now. We do genetic genealogy. We do cold case investigations. We do a lot of civil

00:10:17.240 cases, surplus searches, air searches, you name it. I have a studio called Square Mile Studios,

00:10:22.360 which is an homage to my hometown, Central Falls, Rhode Island, where we currently have two shows.

00:10:27.460 We have Crime Weekly, which is on YouTube and on audio podcast platforms. I have another show

00:10:33.720 called Detective Perspective, which is also on YouTube and on audio. And that focuses on unsolved

00:10:39.340 cases. And we got some other shows in the mix. And in addition to that, I do some TV stuff. I have

00:10:44.720 a show called Crime Feed with Nancy Grace. I've done some talking head stuff for different networks.

00:10:49.940 It's all in the same ecosystem. It's all under the true crime kind of theme. It's what I enjoy. It's my

00:10:55.220 passion. And I've found ways to kind of use that passion in different platforms in different ways. And

00:11:01.260 I will tell you this, to bring it back to Big Brother, everyone has a lot of big decisions

00:11:05.780 they make in their life. No decision had more of an impact on my life than Big Brother. Because

00:11:10.700 I can tell you right now, if not for Big Brother, none of these other things that I'm talking about

00:11:15.900 right now happen. So it's a crazy life. I'm 40 years old. And even sitting here talking to you

00:11:22.320 about it, it's surreal for me even to this day. I feel like I have this constant case of imposter

00:11:27.240 syndrome. Yeah. So you wrote a book a while back ago called The Undercover Edge, where you

00:11:32.220 take readers through the lessons you've learned as an undercover police officer that are applicable

00:11:37.700 to any person's life. If you take a step back and look at the big picture, why do you think

00:11:43.580 undercover work provides so many lessons about life in general?

00:11:48.040 Well, Big Brother was the proof of concept, right? Because I didn't tell them I was an undercover

00:11:51.860 detective. I just used a lot of what I learned while working undercover in this social experiment

00:11:57.980 to prove that the same things that you do in undercover work can be applied anywhere.

00:12:03.000 And it's really, it's not that, it's not that complex. It's simple interpersonal skills. It's

00:12:08.040 understanding not only yourself, but the person you're communicating with. I referred to it in the

00:12:13.000 chapter as know your target, right? Understanding not what motivates only you, but what motivates them.

00:12:18.520 So you can phrase your questions and your suggestions in a way that's, that incentivizes

00:12:24.300 them to want to do it, not just for you, but for themselves. And when you're trying to build

00:12:29.480 relationships, whether it's in your personal life or whether it's in your professional life,

00:12:34.260 you want to try to build a relationship that's based on genuine commonalities, things that you

00:12:38.300 can actually both agree on so that as you're growing together in that relationship, it's not

00:12:43.140 disingenuous. There's something really there that you can latch onto and utilize to build a stronger

00:12:49.120 connection. And that's really what I did in Big Brother and what I've done, not only in an undercover

00:12:54.440 work, but in my personal life to build relationships with the people that are personal to me, but also

00:12:59.540 my employees, the people that work for me and having individual relationships with them and

00:13:04.500 understanding it's not a one size fits all. Every person that works for me, they respond to different

00:13:09.740 things. My job is to understand what that is. And that way I get the most out of them.

00:13:15.700 Yeah. That was the big takeaway for me is that the thing from your undercover work,

00:13:19.380 undercover work is all about social relationships. And in order to succeed there, you have to develop

00:13:24.040 those social skills. And that's the same thing in life in general, whether it's work, family,

00:13:29.160 et cetera. Yeah. It's all, it all comes down to social.

00:13:31.380 It's not brain surgery, right? Like at the end of the day, you can be an intelligent person and still be

00:13:35.620 horrible socially and you're going to have trouble. But if you can, if you can talk, even if it's in a

00:13:40.680 romantic relationship, we always hear like the jokes, like he's not the best looking guy, but man,

00:13:45.020 he can talk, right? That's, that's really what it's about. It's about being a good communicator

00:13:49.300 and understanding who you are as a person, your strengths, your weaknesses, acknowledging both,

00:13:54.100 and then utilizing what you have at your disposal to benefit you in whatever you're trying to

00:13:58.760 accomplish, whether that's just getting to know someone better, building a stronger friendship,

00:14:02.940 or in a professional setting, getting an employee to be motivated by the work you're asking them to

00:14:07.920 complete. So going on that line of knowing your strengths and weaknesses, this is something you

00:14:12.660 talk about in the book. I thought it was really interesting. The Joe Harry window. Yeah. Johari,

00:14:16.460 Johari window. Johari window. That's how it's pronounced. It could be Joe Harry too. I've heard people

00:14:20.180 pronounce it both ways. All right. Johari window. What is that Johari window? So you're, you're pulling

00:14:24.500 back from memory here, but I believe it was made by two individuals. I think their first names were

00:14:29.240 Joseph. I apologize. I don't remember their last names. I believe it was Joseph and Harrington,

00:14:34.060 and they combined the two to create this Johari window. And it's kind of self-explanatory. If you

00:14:39.460 look it up, it's kind of hard in the audio podcast, but it's basically four separate windows into

00:14:45.020 yourself, right? And, or quadrants, whatever you want to refer to it as. And what it actually to me

00:14:50.280 represents is just a visual representation of you. It's a self-assessment. And we could talk about the

00:14:57.180 Johari window for probably 30 minutes, but the short version is you break it down into different

00:15:01.140 quadrants. One being what's known to you, what's known to others, what's known to them, but not

00:15:07.520 necessarily known to you, like maybe flaws you have that you don't even realize you have. And then

00:15:11.820 what's known to yourself, but not known to others, things that you are passionate about that maybe you

00:15:17.220 haven't shared openly with people, or maybe struggles that you have that people are unaware of. And then the

00:15:22.180 final quadrant would be things that are yet to be discovered by anyone, not only yourself,

00:15:26.180 but the people around you. And for me, taking stock and creating an audit of where you are

00:15:32.400 allows you to better understand who you are and where you need to improve and where you need to

00:15:37.260 capitalize on things that you're already good at. And I think it's sometimes difficult, specifically

00:15:41.620 the quadrant of things that are known to others, but not necessarily known to you. The question would

00:15:48.080 be like, well, how do you write those things down if they're not known to you yet? There are times in

00:15:52.400 our life where people may give you hints to those flaws or areas that you need improvement on,

00:15:59.020 but you refuse to listen, or it's something that you just don't want to believe. And they also refer

00:16:05.080 to this, which isn't the most politically correct term these days, but the blind spot, right? Where

00:16:08.960 there are things that are things that you need to improve on, but you don't necessarily want to.

00:16:15.480 And when you visually write it down, if you can take that acknowledgement and write it into that

00:16:19.660 box, you can actively work towards moving it from the not knowing it about yourself or not

00:16:25.240 acknowledging it about yourself to the box where you do accept what it is. You understand its

00:16:29.880 limitations and you can work on turning that into an asset. So again, Johari window, it's not going to

00:16:36.300 change your life, but I think it is important sometimes to take stock in who you are as a person

00:16:40.480 and have a visual representation of where you are now and where you want to be. And Johari window

00:16:45.760 is just one of those many tools that can help you do that. Yeah. And when you were an undercover cop,

00:16:50.120 did you kind of use the Johari window on the fly for every situation? Like, okay, what are my strengths

00:16:55.740 for this situation? What are my weaknesses for the situation? I don't think I'd necessarily referred

00:17:00.280 to it as the Johari window back then. It was something that I had learned about in college and then kind

00:17:04.180 of forgot about and came back to after getting my business degree where you start to be more of like a,

00:17:09.340 I guess, a scholar, if you will, where you start to try to find applications and studies that will

00:17:14.240 help you assist you in better ways in your personal professional life. But for me, it was just

00:17:19.120 knowing my target, right? I would get some counterintelligence on the person or the group

00:17:23.880 that I was trying to infiltrate. I would see what they liked, what they disliked, what they were

00:17:29.080 gravitated towards, what they pushed away. And I would look for genuine things within myself that would

00:17:34.620 allow us to create authentic connection. Even with these criminals, there were things that we

00:17:39.780 had in common. And those are the things that I would try to focus on as opposed to being disingenuous

00:17:44.560 and trying to find areas that I thought they wanted to hear about, even though they weren't true to who

00:17:50.400 I was. It may be sports. It may be politics. It may be just the way we conduct ourselves in public

00:17:57.180 settings. But I would try to find things that even though this person was doing something that I

00:18:01.500 didn't necessarily agree with, I could still find areas that we were the same. And those were the

00:18:07.680 areas I would focus on. It would also allow me to be a better undercover cop because when they

00:18:12.000 questioned me on those things, I just had to be myself. So there wasn't really an opportunity to

00:18:17.100 trip me up because I stuck with what I knew and who I really was. I thought that was interesting

00:18:22.140 talking about the target and developing a dossier about the target. The amount of pre-work that was

00:18:28.540 involved. I think sometimes people think, oh, you know, this guy went undercover. You just, okay,

00:18:32.740 here's the assignment. Now you go undercover. There's actually like months, maybe years potentially

00:18:37.420 of pre-work before that happens. Walk us through like what sorts of things were you trying to figure

00:18:42.020 out before you actually infiltrated a group? Depends on the case. In some instances, it can be exactly

00:18:48.400 what you described where there's case agents who are working on a case with a particular

00:18:53.480 organization for six months to a year. And then when the undercover comes in, like myself,

00:18:59.560 we're given a case file on that person to kind of catch us up to speed. And I may have a couple

00:19:04.360 weeks to a month to review it and ask questions and kind of critique it and make it more in line

00:19:10.620 with what I can do. Then there are other times where you may have a couple hours and they'll give

00:19:15.280 you a case file and say, hey, this is exigent circumstances. We need to get this going now.

00:19:19.840 Here's the person. Here's where they are. Here's what they do. Here's what we have on them. Here's

00:19:24.200 where they frequent. Here's the type of friends they hang out with. Gather as much intel as you can

00:19:28.360 and develop a personality as quick as possible. So yeah, the more time, the better. The more you

00:19:34.120 can understand your target, the better off you're going to be at getting whatever you want out of

00:19:38.160 them or building some type of relationship as quickly as possible. But it does vary. Sometimes you

00:19:43.020 have more time. Sometimes you have less. And that adaptability is what separates, I think,

00:19:47.880 the good detectives from the bad ones, where the people who can adapt not only prior to the

00:19:52.480 investigation, but also on the fly in that moment, they're going to be the most successful.

00:19:57.780 How did you use this idea of developing a profile for a target? How did you use this on Big Brother?

00:20:03.680 Same thing, right? When I went in there, it's by being a good listener. I describe another chapter

00:20:08.860 in the book where you have the right to remain silent and listen. It's important to listen.

00:20:13.100 It's important to just shut up and listen to what the person is genuinely saying, even what they're

00:20:18.640 not saying, and to understand what motivates them. Because if you're actually listening to them

00:20:24.400 and not just thinking about what you're going to say next, you're going to learn a lot of

00:20:29.120 information. And from that information, you can develop your approach to how you're going to

00:20:33.960 communicate with them in a way that's more effective. So in Big Brother, I went in there and I just

00:20:39.280 wanted to be someone they could talk to. I wanted to be their brother, their father, their uncle,

00:20:44.740 you know, just a friend, whatever they were looking for. I wanted to be that person. And we would talk

00:20:49.760 about their friends, their family members, their dreams, their aspirations, their motives for being

00:20:54.360 in Big Brother. And once I learned what those motives were, I could frame my questioning or my

00:21:00.240 instructions in a way that would incentivize them to do it. So for example, just one example,

00:21:05.000 you had people who weren't there to win the money. They were there to gain notoriety or maybe get

00:21:09.620 exposure for their singing career or whatever. So when I went to certain people, I may be wanting

00:21:15.400 the same thing, but the way I frame it to one person may not be that way to another. So for one

00:21:20.080 person, I may say, man, if you make this move, if you put this person on the block, I can tell you

00:21:24.960 it's going to be a TV moment. You're going to get so many followers from this. People are going to be

00:21:29.720 crushing your phone after this to get you to come on and do other shows with them because

00:21:33.480 that that's going to be a memorable moment. And for that person, that's all they needed to hear.

00:21:38.080 For someone else, it may be financially motivated where it's like, listen, if you do this,

00:21:43.100 there's an opportunity that you could get further in the game, which is going to allow you to

00:21:46.220 generate more income because the longer you're here, the more money you make. So if you want to

00:21:50.540 increase your longevity in this game, it's important to get this person out now.

00:21:54.560 Now, the real secret sauce and all that is I was having them do things that were ultimately

00:21:59.480 beneficial to my game. They just didn't see it that way because I framed it in a way

00:22:04.120 that it appeared on the surface to be good for them. But in reality, this was a bigger plan that

00:22:09.440 I had for myself to get to the end. Yeah, I thought that was an interesting takeaway. It was a big

00:22:14.200 takeaway for me after reading your book is when you're developing a profile on somebody, whether

00:22:17.700 it's, I mean, it sounds kind of mercenary to talk about, you know, people as targets inside of a

00:22:23.300 criminal situation. But you do do that. Like it could be a potential employer. It could be an

00:22:28.560 investor. It could be a potential romantic partner. Like you've got to develop some sort of profile

00:22:33.340 them so you can figure out how you can connect with them. Right. But the idea of finding out what

00:22:37.780 someone's motivation is, that's often like the last Tumblr and the pin in that Tumblr lock. If you can

00:22:44.660 click that, then like you can really figure out how you can influence this person.

00:22:48.220 1,000%. Yeah. And also how they receive praise, right? Like how you perceive praise,

00:22:53.580 how I perceive praise. It could be different depending on if it's a personal situation or

00:22:57.740 professional situation. Just in a personal situation, if it's your significant other,

00:23:01.780 I may be more prone to just wanting physical touch where my wife may be more receptive to 0.99

00:23:07.480 physical gifts, you know? So I don't want to go to her and start hugging up all on her and doing all

00:23:12.960 these different things with that's not really what she's looking for. There may be other ways to get

00:23:17.000 through to her that incentivizes her to continue whatever I'm wanting her to continue, whatever

00:23:21.120 behavior or action she's carried out that I like. And so I think it's understanding, again, back to

00:23:27.860 this Johari window, understanding yourself, but more importantly, understanding the people around

00:23:32.780 you and what makes them tick. We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

00:23:39.780 And now back to the show. So how do you figure out someone's real motivation? Because here's the

00:23:44.800 thing. Sometimes people say publicly, like, this is why I'm here, but really it's not. So how do you

00:23:51.580 figure out that hidden motivation? So it can be difficult. And I do think that there is just an

00:23:56.500 innate ability to it as well. Like, just like a lot of things in life. I grew up in a very diverse

00:24:01.800 community and it was dangerous at points. And my safety was based on my ability to interpret people's

00:24:08.540 true agendas relatively quickly, which ultimately led to a successful law enforcement career.

00:24:13.200 But there are things you can learn. And I do think the more you let people talk and the more you

00:24:18.360 listen, the more likely they are to either expose themselves or contradict themselves in a way

00:24:24.080 where you can make note of it and understand what their true agenda is, even though they may be saying

00:24:29.000 one thing, but their actions suggest another. And that also comes down to verbal and nonverbal cues.

00:24:34.040 We didn't even talk about that, right? The verbal cues are what they're saying, but they could be

00:24:38.160 saying something, but yet their physical actions show another. So you have to not only be a good

00:24:42.700 listener, but you have to be a good observer. So in the Big Brother house, again, this is applicable

00:24:47.100 to life as well. Someone could be talking to you about something and saying, hey, I really like this

00:24:52.880 person. And yet you can see what they're doing physically suggest another thing. So you have to

00:24:57.720 be aware of both. You have to make an assessment of it. You have to note and document maybe physically

00:25:02.440 or just in your head what you're seeing and how it lines up with what they're saying and come to an

00:25:07.400 educated decision on what you think their true intentions are. Are you always going to get it right?

00:25:11.660 No, absolutely not. And you'll have to make adjustments when that happens.

00:25:15.140 But that ability to at least make an initial assessment and adapt on the fly is critical

00:25:19.620 to the success that you'll have. Yeah. I thought it was another part of your book

00:25:23.580 talking about reading body language. We've had people on the podcast before, like body language

00:25:27.860 experts. And they're way more advanced than I am, for sure. Yeah. But a common response to

00:25:32.460 reading body language, like, well, it's just bunk. Like you can't do that. But it sounds like,

00:25:36.560 no, it's not. You actually use this not only as an undercover cop, but you used it on Big Brother.

00:25:40.540 Yeah. There's people who make a living doing this. And they're a lot better than me, obviously.

00:25:44.220 There's people like, I think about the podcast, the behavior panel. They're incredible at this.

00:25:48.220 Like there's studies that show that there are subconscious behaviors that we do when we're

00:25:54.260 feeling a certain way, feeling a certain emotion that we're not even aware of that we're doing.

00:25:59.500 And what I would say to just kind of put it in perspective, it's not a science in the sense of

00:26:04.020 everyone does the same thing. Like, oh, if you're lying, you're always going to look down to the right.

00:26:09.380 That's not everyone. What I would say is every person is different. And the number one thing you

00:26:14.560 could do goes back to being a good observer and being a good listener. You have to sit there with

00:26:18.920 this person, sometimes for hours, sometimes for days, and you have to develop a baseline for them.

00:26:26.120 What I mean by that is everybody's different. Things that may be indications of deception

00:26:31.400 in certain cases may be just a normal behavior for them. So your job initially is to be a good

00:26:37.140 report taker and document what you see both verbally and non-verbally so that you have an

00:26:41.280 understanding of who they are and what they normally do. That's when you can transition

00:26:46.300 the conversation to what you really want to know about. Whether it's in an interrogation or just

00:26:51.000 at the job, you can start to ask them questions that may elicit a specific emotion. Maybe it's

00:26:56.200 something that's going to make the situation a little bit more tense, maybe make them a little bit

00:27:00.000 more anxious. And that's when you want to compare the behaviors that you saw under normal

00:27:05.100 circumstances when there wasn't really anything on the line to what you're observing now. Are there

00:27:10.000 any differences? Once you document those differences, you go back to normal questions,

00:27:15.060 maybe about sports, maybe about the weather, to see if they continue to display those new

00:27:19.100 behaviors you just observed. If they don't, it could be an indication of some type of anxiety or

00:27:24.400 deception, or it could just be an outlier. It's on you to document those things to see if you can

00:27:30.440 connect the dots and also recreate a situation where they display that behavior again. And if

00:27:36.420 you find that they're only doing it with certain questions, now you have an indicator that is

00:27:41.160 specific to them. So when people say it's bunk, I think that's more in line with people who say,

00:27:46.540 hey, you can read this one book and you can tell when every single person is lying just by reading

00:27:50.840 this book. I don't believe in that, but I do believe there is truth in the idea that we all have

00:27:55.580 certain traits about us, subconscious behaviors that we don't even know we display. And if someone's

00:28:01.180 sitting in front of you long enough, they can identify those elements and use them to better

00:28:06.000 understand you. Okay. So just to recap, that's a cool interrogation technique. So if you suspect

00:28:11.360 someone might be lying about something, the thing you can do is you start off talking to them. You just

00:28:16.860 talk about innocuous thing. You ask them questions. Talk about baseball. Baseball, movies, whatever.

00:28:22.240 Yep. They're relaxed. They're not bladed. Their hands aren't crossed. They're not rubbing their

00:28:25.700 fingers. They're not rubbing their knees. Yep. Exactly. So that's establishing the baseline.

00:28:29.940 That's your baseline. This is, there's no anxiety here, no stress. That's right. And then you throw

00:28:33.800 a question like, well, tell me about what was going on when you were at this time. Yeah. Did Joey take

00:28:39.160 those, that cash off the, did you know who took that cash off the counter that was there the other day?

00:28:43.140 Yeah. And then if they start getting a little cagey, it's like, okay, something's going on here. Then

00:28:46.320 you go back to talking about the Mets again. Yep. And then if they continue to display that behavior,

00:28:51.140 it may just be an outlier. It may just be a red herring, or if they go back to being relaxed,

00:28:55.040 not bladed, not kind of wringing their hands, not kind of rubbing their thighs, not kind of

00:28:58.540 tapping their feet. Now it's something where you go, Hmm. Okay. And I I'll see saw back and forth.

00:29:03.640 I'll go back. I'll blade back into that uncomfortable conversation to see if they start

00:29:07.600 displaying that behavior again. Now that doesn't automatically mean they're guilty of something,

00:29:11.940 but it does indicate a level of anxiety that they're not displaying when you're asking normal

00:29:16.820 questions. Again, not a direct science. It's not applicable to everyone, but I think most people

00:29:22.020 would hear what I just said and say, yeah, that, that kind of makes sense. Did you use on big

00:29:26.100 brothers? So you like, you talk to somebody like, Oh, we're just talking about our family. And then

00:29:29.300 you'd be like, so are you going to vote off so-and-so every day, every day, every hour. It's a big

00:29:34.340 reason I was so successful is, is not only understanding who they are, but then also understanding

00:29:39.500 some of their nonverbal cues that would indicate they were lying to me, or they were anxious about what I

00:29:44.420 was referring to, or what I was questioning them about, which would allow me to say,

00:29:48.320 you know what, maybe I shouldn't trust this person. They got to go home.

00:29:52.260 Another tactic you used as a police officer, when you're trying to figure out what happened in a

00:29:57.000 situation, separating people. Why is separating people a useful tactic to kind of get to the truth?

00:30:02.340 Well, you think about it when people have the chance to collaborate and kind of get on the same

00:30:06.200 page, it's very easy to come up with a story and stick to it. But when you separate them and there's a

00:30:11.180 wall between them, there may be some distrust there. And at the end of the day, they don't know

00:30:16.020 what someone's saying on the other side of that wall. So by separating them, you can not only get

00:30:21.100 true stories from each individual party, but in an interrogation situation, you can also use it

00:30:26.900 against them. And some of your listeners may not be okay with that, but that's an acceptable tactic

00:30:32.300 in law enforcement, where if you and I are being interrogated and they come into me and they know that

00:30:38.040 I'm lying and they kind of know more of the story than they're letting on being the investigators.

00:30:42.060 And they say, well, you're telling me this, but Brett's telling me that Brett may not have said

00:30:46.940 anything, but I don't know that. And if there's some concern that I have about Brett because of

00:30:51.860 my trust or lack thereof for him, I may start divulging information to save my own ass. 0.86

00:30:57.500 And in reality, Brett hasn't said anything. So it is something that can be done. It's also referred 0.94

00:31:02.940 to as trickery. Like I said, not everyone loves it, but criminals usually have the one up on

00:31:07.820 everything because they know what happened and we don't. So anytime we can separate parties and

00:31:12.120 use whatever tactical advantage we are legally allowed to use, we will do it. And that is one

00:31:17.220 of those that can be very successful because again, we don't allow them to communicate with

00:31:21.500 each other, which can embolden them to kind of lock up and not say anything. When you separate them,

00:31:27.000 it creates a level of anxiety where they're saying to themselves, I want to get the deal before him

00:31:31.520 because if I don't, he could be testifying against me.

00:31:34.480 Yeah. You're creating the prisoner's dilemma.

00:31:37.040 Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

00:31:38.580 And I can see like a parent using this, like the lamp is broken.

00:31:41.840 Of course.

00:31:42.580 The lamp is broken and there's two suspects.

00:31:45.840 Yep.

00:31:46.420 Instead of talking to them both right there, it's like, all right, you, child number one,

00:31:50.620 come here, I'm going to talk, get their story. Child number two, and there's probably going to

00:31:53.880 be some conflict there and then you can start figuring things out.

00:31:56.260 And that's such a basic way, but it's so true. And it can apply to even more severe situations

00:32:00.540 where, whether it's employees or employers or a romantic partner, when you can separate the

00:32:06.280 parties and they're not allowed to bounce off of each other's behavior and verbal intonations,

00:32:11.240 whatever they're saying, it gives you the one up, which anytime you can get that advantage,

00:32:15.460 you need to do it.

00:32:16.600 So going back to this idea of just listening, just shutting up and listening, you talk about

00:32:21.040 another tactic you use as an officer and you use this on Big Brother too, is just continuing the

00:32:26.540 pause, like allow for an awkward pause. Why is that such a useful tactic to get more information

00:32:31.900 from people?

00:32:32.400 It's so funny because that's not something anyone ever taught me. It was just something

00:32:35.920 that I realized. There is this psychological expectation where when you talk to someone,

00:32:42.900 you might say a statement or two and you're looking for some type of acknowledgement, whether

00:32:46.680 that's physical or verbal. And in most instances, doesn't apply to everyone. What I found

00:32:52.420 was that when someone I was interrogating was telling me a story, they would give me just enough

00:32:58.560 where they felt like I would be satisfied. And they're looking for that response, that rebuttal,

00:33:04.700 that dialogue, so that there's not this awkward moment of silence. Somebody has to fill that air,

00:33:10.640 right? So when they start talking, they may say something and they may say, you know, initially,

00:33:16.600 hey, uh, I don't know much, but, you know, but I do know that there was, there was a red car there.

00:33:23.500 There was definitely a red car there. And I look at them and I go, I'm not going to say anything

00:33:29.680 else. I'll give it, it does come off as awkward. I promise you. It's like a 10, 15 second gap,

00:33:35.360 but then they go, and this doesn't happen every time. This isn't like people listening may say,

00:33:39.480 oh yeah, I'm sure that's going to work, but it's another tool you can try. If it doesn't work,

00:33:43.560 you go on to the next tool. But in certain cases, they may go, the first three digits of the license

00:33:49.180 plate were RTX. But honestly, that's truly all I know. And I may give them a look like, really?

00:33:56.760 Come on. I, again, not saying anything. There's just this awkward pause. And in some cases they'll go,

00:34:02.980 what do you want to know? What's going to get me out of here? And I'll go, I'll go, you tell me,

00:34:08.800 I know, you know more, you tell me, I'm not saying much of anything. I maybe said five words in this

00:34:13.120 whole interaction. The person was, you know, this white dude with a white beanie on, but really,

00:34:18.480 genuinely, that's all I got. You can arrest me. I don't care. That's all I got. But just by the

00:34:22.620 momentary pause, I've gained little bits of information, little pieces of the puzzle that

00:34:27.260 can help solve the overall case. Now, would I say this works a lot in my personal life? No,

00:34:33.800 because those people know you. And if you're just sitting there looking into their eyes,

00:34:37.120 they're kind of looking at you like you're a weirdo. This is more for an interrogation. I wouldn't

00:34:41.400 necessarily suggest that people do this in their personal life, but it can apply. I think with

00:34:46.180 your kids, I think with certain employees, when you're investigating either a misconduct or a

00:34:51.200 theft, and you're in that position of authority, you have the ability to keep that pause or maybe

00:34:56.560 pretend like you're writing something down where it creates this psychological need to fill that

00:35:02.500 silence. And if you're not filling it, in some cases, the other person will.

00:35:06.720 Okay. I like that. It's interesting. So in your career as an officer, you had to do something

00:35:12.340 that very few officers do. I think it's like 27% of officers actually have to fire their gun

00:35:17.100 outside of a range. So you had to shoot someone in self-defense and that person died from their

00:35:21.320 wounds. How did you respond to that? Not well at first. It was a very difficult situation to go

00:35:28.420 through. I was 23 years old. I don't think I can talk about this without giving a little backstory

00:35:32.900 for everybody going, oh my God, that conversation just took a turn. But it was a 911 hangup. And

00:35:39.380 for anybody who doesn't know, 911 hangups are very common in law enforcement. They happen almost every

00:35:44.020 day. And so it was Easter Sunday. Multiple officers were at the station. Again, it's Easter. It's a slow

00:35:50.340 night. So we thought. And so we responded to this house because it was a 911 call. The phone picked up

00:35:55.800 and then just hung up. So we get there and we get up to the second floor and there's a person standing

00:36:00.660 there. They only speak Spanish. So a Spanish speaking officer that was with me starts talking

00:36:04.900 to them. We learned that there was a fight on the third floor. Get up to the third floor. There's

00:36:09.420 another individual standing there and he's standing in the hallway. And it's hard to describe this over

00:36:13.440 an audio podcast, but he's standing on this landing with his shoulder, his left shoulder facing this

00:36:19.080 apartment door that's currently closed. So I'm the first one going up the stairs. I start to talk to

00:36:24.040 him. I realize again, he's Spanish speaking. So I continue to walk up to him and then past him where now

00:36:29.340 I'm also standing on the landing to his right facing the door to his left. And the officers, there's three

00:36:37.540 other officers. One of them is on the stairs speaking Spanish to this person. And all of a sudden, I don't

00:36:42.360 understand what they're saying, but this individual opens the door to the apartment. When he does, it's just

00:36:47.980 this completely dark apartment. I can see it's a pretty big apartment. I can see multiple doors kind of lining the

00:36:53.820 hallway that I can see down. And one of the doors, it's, I can tell that it's open because there's a

00:36:59.820 light emitting from the room. I can't see in the room, but I can see the door frame and that it's lit

00:37:03.820 up. Well, as they're sitting there having this conversation, a figure comes out of the room. I

00:37:09.300 can see this silhouette and I, luckily I could see it pretty well. I couldn't see them, but for some

00:37:14.140 reason I could tell that when they walked out of the room, they were looking right at me. They were

00:37:17.600 looking right through my soul. And fortunately enough for me, as I scanned their silhouette from

00:37:23.960 their head down to their feet, I could see one thing that stood out to me immediately. And that

00:37:28.820 was the fact that they were holding a long knife by their side. And we always learned at the academy

00:37:33.620 that when you see a knife, the first thing you should do is yell knife as loud as you can. And it

00:37:37.020 sounded so stupid in the academy, but creating that muscle memory over the years, it was the first 0.99

00:37:42.220 thing I did. I immediately yelled knife. And as I yelled knife, the silhouette turned towards me and 1.00

00:37:48.400 started running towards the door. So I pushed the individual that had been standing on the landing

00:37:52.440 with us down the stairs. And at this point, the other officers are going, what the F is going on?

00:37:56.660 Because they can't see any of this. But I pull out my gun. I back up into the window that's behind me

00:38:02.420 on this third floor landing. And I could feel the cold air on my back. I almost fell out the window.

00:38:07.540 I have my gun out and this individual comes all the way up to the door. He gets in the doorway. He's

00:38:11.980 got the knife over his head. I can see his eyes are bloodshot. He's kind of breathing heavy. And I

00:38:16.420 could tell that he's under some type of substance. And we were only about a foot away from each other,

00:38:20.800 but I didn't shoot him because right when I was about to, he stopped. And I really didn't want to do

00:38:26.580 it. I didn't want to shoot him. So he ends up shutting the door. And at that point, we have to go 0.87

00:38:31.320 inside because he could be in there hurting himself or hurting someone else. And at that point, we had

00:38:35.400 developed the information that there was a fight between multiple people. And we hadn't found those

00:38:40.460 other people yet. For all I know, they could be in that bedroom with him and he could be killing

00:38:44.080 them. So we have to go in. So I kicked the door in. All four officers, including myself, go into the 0.93

00:38:50.100 apartment. We're in the kitchen with him. He's standing there with a knife over his head. Two

00:38:54.320 of the officers with us speak Spanish. They're telling him in English and in Spanish to drop the 1.00

00:38:57.980 knife, drop the knife. He's not doing it. And we know this isn't going to add well. So we gave him

00:39:03.560 enough room to kind of move around. We didn't want him to feel cornered. And we really just wanted

00:39:08.160 the situation to deescalate and for it to end. But unfortunately, that didn't happen. And he

00:39:12.520 ran to his right back down that hallway that I was describing earlier, but into the furthest room,

00:39:19.020 which was the living room. So we stack up again, the officers, because it's a very narrow hallway.

00:39:24.520 And I end up being the first one. And as we're going down that hallway into that room, it's only

00:39:30.080 about an eight by eight room. And the first thing that I can see is this individual in the back corner

00:39:35.060 with the knife in his hand. And he's trying to open the window, which is connected to the fire

00:39:39.260 escape. But the window's not opening. And he doesn't realize it at the time because he's under

00:39:43.000 so many substances that there's a piece of wood in the window and he can't open it. And we learned

00:39:47.320 out later that the two victims were on the second floor and that's where he was trying to get to.

00:39:52.440 Unfortunately, you know, I guess I could say fortunately for us, the window didn't open. He didn't

00:39:57.060 get down there, but that did cause him to turn around. And he saw me standing there and he raised the

00:40:03.120 knife over his head and he ran directly at me. And he was, he was only picking up speed. He was not

00:40:08.080 slowing down. And law enforcement has been learned through studies that if someone is within 21 feet

00:40:13.840 of you, they can get to you even after being shot and still kill or severely injure you. When I finally

00:40:19.760 shot him, I was only about three feet away from him, maybe less. There was stippling on his chest 0.74

00:40:24.560 because of how close he was. Stippling being the gunpowder burning on his skin because of how close he was.

00:40:29.640 And there was even a point because I took so long that an officer behind me who was a Marine who

00:40:35.540 had been overseas thought that I was going to freeze. And he actually took his gun out, put it

00:40:40.580 over my head to my right ear and shot the guy as well. But what actually helped me in this case later

00:40:46.240 as they start to investigate a police involved shooting was the fact that that Marine was so

00:40:51.600 focused on the knife, which was over this man's head and was coming down towards my face. This Marine was

00:40:57.260 so focused on that knife that he got tunnel vision. And when he shot him, he actually shot him twice in

00:41:02.480 the arm. But the way the bullets went through his arm, it proved that the guy's arm was over his head

00:41:08.600 when he shot him, showing the trajectory of the bullets going through his forearm from the front to

00:41:13.020 the back, indicating that what I said was actually true. So this happened. Unfortunately, he did not

00:41:19.240 survive those injuries. I have no ill will toward him. Selvin Gardado was his name. It was probably a good

00:41:25.700 person who just made a really bad decision. And what fortunately helped me in the grand jury

00:41:30.660 proceeding, which happens in every police involved shooting, was that not only did the ballistics

00:41:34.900 support what we were saying, but his family testified on my behalf as well. They knew what

00:41:39.100 was going to happen that day and it was going to be him or me. So it was a tough situation for me.

00:41:44.420 Although you sign up and you know that's a potential possibility, it hadn't happened in 25 years in my

00:41:49.120 police department. And I left that situation asking myself, why me? And I really struggled with it for a

00:41:55.300 while. I wasn't a very religious person, but when something like that happens, you start to question

00:42:00.940 where does that leave you? Where do you go from here? What have you truly done? And if there's

00:42:06.540 someone who believes in God, where does that put you? And I really started to be concerned about those

00:42:11.340 things on top of the fact that I was waiting to go to this grand jury where these people who don't

00:42:15.660 know me could ultimately decide to indict me. So it was a really tough time, but through the help of

00:42:21.280 friends and through the help of my church and people around me, I was able to come to a understanding of

00:42:27.940 what transpired and the fact that there was no other choice and I had to do what I did. And

00:42:33.380 there was a point where many people, including officers in my department, who were saying I

00:42:38.520 should retire. I would be able to retire with a 66 and two-thirds pension, non-taxable for the rest of

00:42:44.200 my life. And ultimately I decided not to do that clearly because I continued on with my career. But

00:42:50.400 the main reason I did is because one, I felt I was okay with what I did. I'd come to terms with it

00:42:56.260 and I didn't want to disrespect any military person or former officer who had been through a similar

00:43:02.820 situation and wanted to stay a police officer, but couldn't because of the mental struggles they now

00:43:07.840 had. I didn't have those struggles and I didn't want to fake it. And I didn't want to disrespect

00:43:12.040 anyone who had. So I came back and I took this really difficult situation and turned it into a

00:43:18.180 positive by using it as a tool to motivate me, not only on the job, but in life. And honestly,

00:43:23.460 I will tell you many things that I did after that were because of that shooting, including going on

00:43:29.520 Big Brother. Because when you go through a situation like that, you realize that life is binary. It's on

00:43:36.140 or it's off and it can be over in a moment's notice. You are not promised tomorrow and don't

00:43:42.560 live life like you are. So after that time, I really went for everything that I wanted in life,

00:43:48.340 whether it was detective work, whether it was going for my bachelor's degree and then my master's 0.78

00:43:52.340 degree, whether it was applying for a stupid show like Big Brother, or whether it was just personal 0.87

00:43:56.500 things in my life that I wanted to experience. Being in that moment and realizing how precious life 0.99

00:44:01.920 is, you can't take it for granted. And although this was something I would have preferred to have

00:44:06.520 never happened, I appreciate that it did. And I'm glad that I can take something out of it that I'll

00:44:11.520 carry with me for the rest of my life. That was a very, very long version of all this. But I think

00:44:15.620 that's the only way I could tell that story in a context that people would understand without just

00:44:21.040 saying, hey, you shot someone and they died. So that's, that's my takeaway. I know that was long winded.

00:44:25.760 So I apologize. No, it was good. I appreciate that. You know, something that you talk about in the

00:44:30.000 book and it stood out to me was you took this moment that could have defined your life negatively,

00:44:36.140 like for the rest of your life, and then you turned it into a catalyst for growth. So I mean,

00:44:40.120 it really hits home that idea that sometimes our most challenging moments in life can become our

00:44:46.880 biggest sources of strength if we let them. Well, Derek, this has been a great conversation.

00:44:51.120 Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:44:53.560 So the book has been out for a few years. I appreciate you reading it. The Undercover Edge,

00:44:57.340 I believe is still on Amazon if you want to check that out. But I would say if you,

00:45:01.220 if you're interested in what I'm doing, you can go check out Crime Weekly, which is on YouTube

00:45:04.920 and audio, any podcast platform. I also have my own show Detective Perspective where we really dive

00:45:10.100 into the unsolved cases that are out there again on YouTube and audio. And you can follow me on all

00:45:15.380 the social medias. You just type in my name, Derek Levasseur on Instagram X, you know, I'm there.

00:45:21.160 I'm not a TikToker. You're not going to catch me dancing, but I appreciate you allowing me to come on. 0.95

00:45:25.600 It was a great conversation and hopefully some people got some stuff out of it.

00:45:29.880 Well, Derek Levasseur, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:45:31.660 Thank you, sir. Appreciate it.

00:45:33.480 My guest here is Derek Levasseur. He's the author of the book, The Undercover Edge. It's

00:45:36.680 available on amazon.com. You can find more information about his work at his website,

00:45:40.060 officialderrick.com. Also check out our show notes at awim.is slash undercover,

00:45:44.780 where you find links to resources when we delve deeper into this topic.

00:45:47.040 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. Make sure to check out our website

00:45:58.380 at artofmanlies.com, where you find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles that

00:46:02.500 we've written over the years about pretty much anything you think of. And if you haven't done

00:46:05.860 this already, I'd appreciate if you take one minute to give us a podcast or Spotify. It helps

00:46:09.320 out a lot. And if you've done that already, thank you. Please consider sharing the show with a friend

00:46:12.980 or a family member who would think there's something out of it. As always, thank you for

00:46:16.220 the continued support. Until next time, it's Brett McKay. Remind you to not listen to anyone

00:46:19.360 podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

The Art of Manliness - November 11, 2024

An Undercover Cop’s Tips on How to Influence Others and Navigate Life

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