Dr. Kenneth Carter, a clinical psychologist and author of Inside the Minds of Thrill Seekers, Daredevils, and Adrenaline Junkies, explains how sensation seeking exists on a spectrum between chill seekers who like a safe, calm routine, and thrill seekers who enjoy chaos, risk, and novelty.
00:10:28.180They're not very conscientious, et cetera.
00:10:30.820But they're actually, they don't like doing dangerous stuff, you know, things like that.
00:10:35.820So I really, I thought that was really interesting that you have to look at thrill-seeking as almost kind of like a little bit of separate personality.
00:10:42.440You can't just look at someone's overall grand personality and peg them as a thrill-seeker.
00:10:48.480In fact, one of the biggest, like, you know, easiest to imagine that thrill-seekers are these extroverted sort of wild people who will do whatever.
00:10:58.180But what I've realized is sometimes it's the really quiet ones, those introverted high sensation seekers are going to do, you know, a lot of those things.
00:11:07.820And you wouldn't have expected because you're sort of looking for an extrovert.
00:11:11.740But a lot of high sensation seekers are introverts as well.
00:11:48.980Some of the research suggests that maybe like 60% or so may be biological because there are some chemicals that are involved in sensation-seeking that are a little bit different than in high sensation-seekers than average and low sensation-seekers.
00:12:05.240But we know that environment can have a big impact on that as well.
00:12:09.780To the biology, how is the physiology in a high sensation-seeker different from someone of lower average sensation-seeking?
00:12:18.640So there's a lot of different differences, but the ones I usually talk about to help people think through, because there are some chemicals that people are usually aware of, focus on cortisol and dopamine.
00:12:30.740So cortisol, as you probably know, is that sort of stress hormone.
00:12:34.200It helps organize our body for, you know, for that fight, flee, or freeze response when there's lots of chaos or dangerous things.
00:12:43.760So if you, you know, are surprised or scared, your heart rate will go up, your muscles rev up for those kinds of things.
00:12:52.340What we find is that high sensation-seekers don't tend to produce as much cortisol in those chaotic moments.
00:13:00.800They're actually pretty chill and calm during those things that would normally cause people a cortisol response.
00:13:08.480But their dopamine levels tend to be a little bit higher.
00:13:11.780So dopamine is a neurotransmitter that most people have heard of that's associated with pleasure.
00:13:17.440And so when high sensation-seekers are confronted with these chaotic experiences, they feel a lot of pleasure, but not that much stress.
00:13:26.120And so it's a very interesting combination of chemicals that sort of leads them to feeling the way they do.
00:13:33.520Their body is just telling them that it's not a dangerous thing.
00:13:37.040Low sensation-seekers like me, I produce lots of cortisol all the time, so I'm going to feel freely stressed out, but not that much pleasure in those chaotic experiences that high sensation-seekers are really going to be sort of vibing in.
00:13:52.020All right, so yeah, the high sensation-seekers, whenever they encounter a dangerous, maybe different situation, their response is, go towards it.
00:13:59.900Low sensation-seekers are like, no, go away.
00:14:02.360Yeah, yeah, yeah, because we're trying to avoid those things that might be dangerous.
00:14:07.360But if your body is not telling you it's dangerous, then it doesn't feel dangerous.
00:14:10.940Well, this is the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:14:12.700Does testosterone play a role in sensation-seeking?
00:14:16.960So testosterone levels tend to peak in early adolescence, which is around the same time that you'd expect to see lots of sensation-seeking.
00:14:25.500And so as people get older, their testosterone levels start to fall.
00:14:29.600We do see some changes in sensation-seeking as people get older.
00:14:34.280Yeah, and this connection between testosterone and sensation-seeking is also why you see more men who are high sensation-seeking seekers than women, at least in three of the four sensation-seeking categories.
00:14:47.680The women actually outscore men in the experience-seeking category, which I think is interesting.
00:14:53.160But yeah, everyone has testosterone, so everyone also gets that decrease as you get older.
00:14:57.540And you highlighted people in your book where when they were young, maybe young adults, they did crazy stuff, travel without a plan, eat weird food, jump off of bridges.
00:15:10.140But when they got married or had kids, they started scaling that back a lot.
00:15:16.480And I've noticed that in my own life, I'm 40, I'll be 42 here soon.
00:15:20.580When I was younger, I was up for, I'm not a super high sensation seeker, but when I was younger, I would do crazy stuff.
00:15:28.740But now I look back like, I'm like, why did I do that?
00:15:37.060And part of that's environmental and part of it's biological.
00:15:40.540Biological change, the changes in those hormones like testosterone or another chemical called MAO tends to decrease in people that's associated with sensation-seeking.
00:15:50.540But I also talked a little bit about things I called anchors in your life, things that sort of anchor you in.
00:15:55.200Because the older you get, the more you have to lose, right?
00:15:58.380And so thinking about how other people might be impacted with those choices makes a big difference as well.
00:16:27.720And it's hard to sort of figure out sometimes because there might be lots of influences on that.
00:16:33.740Some of the research suggested that people that grew up with either spirituality or some religious background had some impact on their disinhibition.
00:16:42.920There's also some research that suggested that high sensation-seekers said that they had more controlling parents.
00:16:49.760But it's very possible that parents might have seen controlling because they were wanting to do high sensation-seeking things.
00:16:55.720And so hard to figure out what those environmental influences could be because there's so many influences on a person's life.
00:17:02.900One that I thought was interesting is if someone grew up in a home with a lot of kids, that might nudge them towards high sensation-seeking because they grew up in a household that was pretty chaotic.
00:17:27.020So in addition to kind of exploring why some people are more prone to being high sensation-seekers or low sensation-seekers, you also looked at like, well, how does this affect the rest of their lives?
00:17:38.580So some of these high sensation-seekers like to eat weird food.
00:17:41.500They like to do crazy, dangerous stuff.
00:17:43.200But how does it affect other facets of their life, like work, relationships?
00:17:48.600How do high sensation-seekers approach their friendships and romantic lives?
00:17:53.560Probably in the same way they approach other aspects where they can tolerate that chaos.
00:17:59.820They are taking their sort of whole selves into those relationships.
00:18:04.140One of the things that sort of surprised me in the research was, and it probably shouldn't have, but that because we all think that other people see the world like we do, right?
00:18:12.600And so a high sensation-seeker thinks that other people aren't as frightened of things that might be frightening.
00:18:18.900And so they can sometimes have trouble with other people in terms of them being frightened by the things they do or not being able to tolerate the chaos in certain ways.
00:18:30.560And so that can be a struggle with some high sensation-seekers who have friends or relationships with individuals who may be average and low sensation-seekers.
00:18:41.540But for the most part, they're sort of drawn to either high or low sensation-seekers fairly equally.
00:18:47.340Do they like more, I don't know how I say this, drama in a relationship?
00:18:52.100Does that drama give them like that high sensation that they need?
00:18:55.620And that's sort of one of the things that drew me to this research to begin with because I was originally going to write a book about people that I called chaos junkies, people who seem to sort of crave chaotic experiences.
00:19:06.360And so we know that high sensation-seekers, you know, they have that really wonderful balance of dopamine and cortisol when they're in chaotic situations.
00:19:18.760And so sometimes high sensation-seekers won't back down from chaotic situations because they're fine in that space, right?
00:19:26.560And so they may create that drama because that's the space they tend to operate the best in.
00:19:33.020I mean, talking about going back to the physiological response that high sensation-seekers have compared to low sensation-seekers,
00:19:40.960I imagine that someone with low sensation-seeking personality, whenever they encounter a social conflict, like the cortisol is just pumping through their body.
00:19:50.460They don't get any dopamine out of it, like this is unpleasant.
00:19:53.940And so they just want to avoid any conflict whatsoever.
00:19:58.820Whereas the high sensation-seeker, whenever there's a conflict in the relationship, it could just be over like just dumb stuff.
00:20:03.700The cortisol is not pumping through their body, so they don't see a problem with the argument or the disagreement.
00:20:10.540It's like, oh, this is just normal and it's fine and everything's okay.
00:20:14.400Whereas the low sensation-seeker would be like, this is awful.
00:20:22.240Yeah, which is really like the thing that sort of drew me into psychology anyway.
00:20:26.920When you have one situation, you see two people responding really differently to it.
00:20:32.160You have this study that I talked about in the book where it was a really interesting study where they had high and low sensation-seekers
00:20:38.660and they had to pick, they were given sort of a profile of different people that they might have a conversation with.
00:20:45.920And they could choose whether or not they wanted to pick a conversation that would create conflict as they talked or one that wouldn't.
00:20:52.880And the low sensation-seekers, just like you sort of described, picked sort of low-conflict conversations.
00:20:58.980The high sensation-seekers pick the things where they thought they might have an argument because that's the space where they operate best in, which reminds me of certain people that I know.
00:21:08.820It's like, why would you talk about that when you know that they don't like talking about it?
00:21:13.120It's because it creates that chaos, that sort of that perfect combination for some high sensation-seekers.
00:21:18.300Yeah, the high sensation-seekers, the guy at Thanksgiving dinner is like, hey, tell me who you voted for.
00:21:27.520And for them, they're happy to approach it because they aren't feeling the same, you know, that cortisol that other people might in those situations.
00:21:47.680So high sensation-seekers really are sort of focused on that relationship piece.
00:21:52.040They're drawn equally to high and low sensation-seekers for romantic relationships.
00:21:56.520The piece they have to sort of watch out for is that empathy around the things that might cause that low sensation-seeker some stress.
00:22:04.640So what I recommend that people do is they take this sensation-seeking survey and they can sort of find out where there might be some ways where they can come together.
00:22:13.960The one couple I've worked with, for example, they found out that they both have high levels of experience-seeking.
00:22:21.320So they might do some adventure travel together, even though the high sensation-seeker might also be high in thrill and adventure.
00:22:27.860They're not going to take their partner with them bungee dumping, but they might do some fun food adventures, for example, or travel to unusual places together.
00:22:38.180Oh, I thought it was interesting in the relationship section, we talk about the six styles of love from this guy, John Allen Lee, and he developed this in the 1970s.
00:22:45.880And so the six different types, there's agape, they come from Greek types of love.
00:22:49.660Agape, eros, storge, pragma, mania, and ludos.
00:23:10.620And I mean, and I know, like, as a clinical psychologist, that it takes different kinds of skills to find someone than it is to sort of maintain a relationship.
00:23:21.300So I wondered whether or not high sensation-seekers may be better at sort of the beginnings of relationships and may struggle sometimes with the middle of relationships.
00:23:31.340Because for some people that I interviewed, that part just gets, like, dull to them.
00:23:37.180One woman I talked to said that she not only jumps out of perfectly good airplanes, but she jumps out of perfectly good relationships because she sort of gets bored.
00:23:46.420And that's part of that, that can be part of that sensation-seeking personality for some people.
00:23:51.620Yeah, it reminds me of that B.B. King song, The Thrill Is Gone.
00:23:54.080That's what the high sensation-seeker might say.
00:23:57.980And so finding ways of maintaining that or even being aware that that could be an issue can really help some people.
00:24:06.700And that's one of the things I love about doing stuff like this, where writing a book for everyday people, hopefully some people will see themselves in that description and maybe, you know, try to navigate that a little bit better.
00:24:19.120Let's talk about the work that high sensation-seekers are drawn to.
00:24:23.560You know, I think about sensation-seeking as a part of a person's personality.
00:24:27.980Some people employ that in their work and not just in their, like, you know, out-of-work time.
00:24:33.860So you can see that in first responders, for example, people in the military.
00:24:39.560I interviewed an emergency room physician and a nurse.
00:24:43.720You know, anywhere where you expect to find chaos, you want people who can handle that chaos in a way that is sort of elegant.
00:24:51.760But sometimes they find themselves out of those kinds of jobs and that can be tough for them because they use that part of their personality in their jobs.
00:25:00.960Okay, so if you're a high sensation-seeker and you just constantly feel bored at work, maybe one suggestion there is to find a job that offers more sensation.
00:25:10.840Or find some recreational activity that can account for that, for sure.
00:25:15.120And going back to this idea that there's not just one type of high sensation-seeker.
00:25:19.560You can be someone who likes to look for excitement, thrill, et cetera, but is low on disinhibition, like you're disciplined.
00:25:28.180So, like, you talk to a lot of, like, military special forces guys who love the thrill of jumping out of an airplane or being shot at.
00:25:36.260But they were incredibly, incredibly disciplined.
00:25:39.260Yes. And so those are people that probably had low levels of disinhibition and probably and hopefully low levels of border and susceptibility as well.
00:25:49.420So they could use that, you know, thrill and adventure-seeking or experience-seeking in their careers in the military.
00:25:56.640Yeah. Let's talk about, I'm curious about this. You've done some research on this a little bit.
00:26:00.600Is high sensation-seeking associated with any, let's say, personality pathologies like sociopathy or psychopathy?
00:26:07.900It can. You know, and what I don't want to suggest is that people that are high sensation-seekers have some kind of psychological disorder.
00:26:17.260But when you look at certain kinds of psychological disorders, there are high sensation-seekers may be sort of overrepresented in certain categories.
00:26:25.900You can see them overrepresented in antisocial personality disorder, a little bit overrepresented in addictive disorders, whether or not they're behavioral addictions or even, like, different kinds of chemical addictions as well.
00:26:40.780Do you have any advice for high sensation-seekers who are listening right now on how to use their unique personality trait to flourish in life and make the world a better place?
00:26:50.100Yeah. I think that the key is to make sure that you have that disinhibition and boredom susceptibility sort of under control, but also to think about that sort of empathy piece in terms of how other people might experience that high sensation-seeking.
00:27:06.320You know, if you're in a car and, you know, changing lanes and going back and forth, you're probably really chill, but your passenger may be really freaked out and you might not realize it.
00:27:18.300So it's important to sort of stop and think and to be able to see how other people might experience those things that you might be doing to make sure those relationships are going well.
00:27:27.600Any advice for parents who've got kids who's like, this kid might be a high sensation-seeker and they're just pulling their hair out because they're just driving them crazy?
00:27:36.320Yeah. And, you know, I've gotten a lot of emails from Barrett asking for that kind of advice.
00:27:41.400To me, finding some things that their kids might do so they can do that high sensation-seeking in a healthy way.
00:27:48.260One thing I really try to emphasize is that these things that you see high sensation-seeking people do, it's not just what they do, it's sort of who they are as a person.
00:27:58.260We can find that when people aren't allowed to express that, it can really impact them because they don't have access to that thing that brings them awe.
00:28:07.000So maybe enroll them in activities where they can do those high sensation-seeking kinds of things, whether or not it's, you know, that emotional high sensation-seeking in terms of that experience-seeking.
00:28:18.940Or maybe it's, you know, a certain kind of gym that really emphasizes rock climbing or adventure sports.
00:28:25.020Helping them find a way to do that that's sort of safe and respectful of other people is everything.
00:28:31.100All right. So give them an outlet is basically what you're saying.
00:28:34.120And what about us, I would consider myself today on the lower end of sensation-seeking, is there anything we can learn from high sensation-seekers?
00:28:45.760I mean, I feel like, you know, one of the things I feel like I learned from talking to high sensation-seekers are a couple things that I really try to employ in my life a lot more.
00:28:55.400Part of it is sort of trusting yourself.
00:28:56.900You know, I think a lot of low sensation-seekers were trying to avoid risk at all costs.
00:29:02.600But the thing I found from a lot of high sensation-seekers is that they trust themselves and that things work out better than they think they're going to.
00:29:11.100They did this really interesting study that I always love talking about whenever I have a chance, where they had people sort of think about, like, you know, what things were they worried about at the moment.
00:29:21.360And then they came back to them a couple of weeks later to say, hey, did those things that you were worried about actually happen?
00:29:27.460And if they did happen, how did you handle it?
00:29:30.360And what they discovered was about 80% of the things that people worry about on a daily basis never happen.
00:29:37.380But as a low sensation-seeker, I feel like I sort of arrange my life so I have a plan A, a plan B, a plan C for everything.
00:29:44.000High sensation-seekers trust themselves and they sort of put themselves into situations and they figure it out.
00:29:49.720And I feel like that's really a lesson I feel like I've learned from them.
00:29:53.540Have you done any, like, crazy things since you've done this book?
00:29:57.000I think the book was probably the craziest thing I've done.
00:29:59.780But those physical things, I just don't have the hardware to run that sort of program.
00:30:05.200I get too overwhelmed, too much, not enough dopamine, way too much cortisol.
00:30:10.060But I feel like I have tried more unusual foods because I feel like the worst that can happen is I just don't like it.
00:30:16.020And so one thing I tell a lot of low sensation-seekers is sort of embrace your own version of awe.
00:30:22.340That awe for a high sensation-seeker is going to be bungee jumping and base diving.
00:30:53.260Well, Ken, this has been a great conversation.
00:30:55.000Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?
00:30:57.360I'm at drkencarter.com on social media, but also on my website as well.
00:31:01.740So you can check out my book, which is Buzz, Inside the Minds of Thrill Seekers, Daredevils, and Adrenaline Junkies, anywhere you find books online.
00:31:20.100Check out our show notes at aom.is slash buzz, where you can find links to resources.
00:31:23.880We delve deeper into this topic, including a more comprehensive test for determining where you are on the sensation-seeking scale.
00:31:30.300Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast.
00:31:41.120Make sure to check out our website at artofmanless.com, where you can find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles that we've written over the years about pretty much anything you think of.
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