The Art of Manliness - Authority Is More Important Than Social Skills

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.480 Influence comes down to a person's level of authority.

00:00:14.620 When someone is perceived as having power, status, and worth, others readily follow them

00:00:19.240 and comply with them.

00:00:20.920 Authority isn't just a matter of position, though.

00:00:23.080 It's also a personal quality.

00:00:25.040 When people attempt to develop their influence or authority, they tend to focus on learning

00:00:28.840 social skills and changing their behaviors around speech and body language.

00:00:32.640 But my guest would say that authority isn't about what you learn, but who you are, and

00:00:37.340 that once you establish the right lifestyle and mindset, influential behaviors will emerge

00:00:41.640 as a natural byproduct.

00:00:43.660 Chase Hughes is a behavioral analyst who trains both military operatives and civilians.

00:00:48.220 Today on the show, Chase impacts the five factors that measure someone's level of authority

00:00:52.380 and produce composure, a state which resides between posturing and collapse.

00:00:56.860 We talk about how so much of authority comes down to having your stuff together, why you

00:01:01.240 should become your own butler, and what Andy Griffith has to teach about leadership.

00:01:05.240 We also talk about the things that kill your authority and how not to be influenced by false

00:01:09.260 authority.

00:01:10.360 After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash authority.

00:01:13.880 All right, Chase Hughes, welcome to the show.

00:01:34.680 Thanks, Brett.

00:01:35.460 Thanks for having me, man.

00:01:36.240 So you are a behavioral analyst, and you train military and law enforcement on how to read

00:01:42.820 people and gather human intelligence.

00:01:44.800 So they might be using this stuff in interrogations, interviews, things like that.

00:01:49.020 How did you get into this line of work?

00:01:51.120 I did 20 years in the military, and I joined when I was 17 years old.

00:01:55.980 And I was stationed in Pearl Harbor.

00:01:59.060 Long story short, I was out in Waikiki Beach one evening, and I was talking to this young

00:02:05.500 lady who I thought was just super into me. 0.76

00:02:08.800 And essentially, I asked her out, and she basically turned me down really hard.

00:02:14.120 And I went home that night, and I typed, how to tell when girls like you into the internet. 0.76

00:02:21.560 And I remember just printing off this massive stack of body language articles and stuff,

00:02:27.380 and I just went down this rabbit hole for like a year.

00:02:31.000 And then, while I was getting good at this, one of my best friends, his name is Craig Weberley,

00:02:36.220 died in the USS Cole terrorist attack.

00:02:39.300 And I was reading these intelligence reports that all the failures that led up to this happening

00:02:46.400 was just a training, intelligence operative training that they couldn't get people in

00:02:51.620 the region to provide intel and stuff.

00:02:54.280 So I just dedicated the rest of my career to making this stuff possible for intelligence

00:03:02.300 operatives to be able to gain rapport and really build up a relationship with these people

00:03:07.940 where they can get intelligence faster.

00:03:10.180 So you went from pickup artistry to helping the military.

00:03:15.000 Right.

00:03:16.000 I wouldn't call it pickup artistry.

00:03:17.640 I just wanted to be good enough at body language that I would just know when not to ask,

00:03:23.880 and I would just avoid rejection, I think.

00:03:26.240 Yeah.

00:03:26.840 Well, so you've written several books where you present the things that you train in the

00:03:30.600 military and law enforcement in a very reader-friendly way.

00:03:33.700 And you've developed these really sophisticated and you have this behavioral table of elements

00:03:39.600 where you analyze body language, basically, and what that can possibly mean.

00:03:44.780 But one of the factors that you talk about a lot in your books and you hit home hard is

00:03:50.420 one of the key factors in gathering intelligence, whether it's from a potential enemy combatant,

00:03:57.200 something like that.

00:03:57.660 Or if you just want to know if someone is interested in you or you're making a sales pitch and you

00:04:03.260 want to make sure that you are directing your pitch in a way that it resonates with that

00:04:07.780 person, you argue that when it comes to influence, authority is more important than social skills.

00:04:14.900 So what led you to that conclusion?

00:04:17.280 Well, if anybody's ever taken like Psych 101 in college, you remember this Milgram experiment.

00:04:22.220 And I'll give you like a 15-second, 20-second recap of this thing.

00:04:27.920 So essentially, they got volunteers for this experiment and they were told they met this

00:04:33.080 person and you're going to give them a quiz.

00:04:35.920 And every time they get an answer wrong, you're going to shock them with this electrical shocking

00:04:40.160 machine.

00:04:41.560 And with each wrong question, you're going to increase the voltage.

00:04:45.580 And it gets worse.

00:04:47.880 I'm not going to go into all the details, but it was pretty bad.

00:04:50.560 Like 67% of people went all the way to maximum voltage, even when the person on the other side

00:04:56.620 of the room that was being, quote unquote, shocked, even though they weren't, was screaming

00:05:01.820 and begging to stop the experiment, saying they had heart problems and all this.

00:05:06.480 And there's hundreds of other psychology experiments like this.

00:05:09.940 But just looking at this, there's no secret technique that was used.

00:05:13.880 There's no like, oh, they use some covert language trick or some secret rapport building

00:05:19.740 technique or any of this.

00:05:21.080 It's just authority made that happen.

00:05:23.900 And if authority can do that, you know, almost on its own with no like secret linguistics or

00:05:30.240 any of those tricks or anything like that, or sales tactics, that seems to be the number

00:05:35.680 one place that we need to focus.

00:05:37.020 If we're starting to learn persuasion or influence or any of that, authority is just so, so important

00:05:42.240 because it can make extreme things happen.

00:05:44.740 Well, yeah, some of the other studies you highlight besides the Milgram study is that researchers

00:05:49.140 have done studies on jaywalking.

00:05:50.840 What was going on there?

00:05:52.640 So I think that was called the crosswalk experiment, where one person essentially just, it's a dude

00:05:59.800 wearing like jeans and a t-shirt.

00:06:01.760 And he walks across the street when he's not supposed to, when the sign says, don't do it.

00:06:06.980 And then the same dude goes up and puts on like a suit and tie and they cut his hair and

00:06:12.000 stuff.

00:06:12.420 And it increases the amount of people who will follow him across the intersection by like

00:06:18.280 88% just because of a shift in clothing.

00:06:21.920 And that's a good estimate.

00:06:24.200 Just our understanding of authority is not all about just and real authority.

00:06:28.600 It's about perceived authority as much as it is about just having genuine authority.

00:06:33.720 And why are we so keyed on individuals with authority?

00:06:36.960 Like, why do we tend to follow them?

00:06:39.200 So our ancestors left all kinds of stuff in our bodies to survive.

00:06:44.140 That's when we have a fight or flight response and all kinds of just pre-programmed responses,

00:06:48.320 even facial expressions.

00:06:49.520 We're born with facial expressions like anger and sadness and happiness and fear.

00:06:55.080 So our ancestors also left everything that helped them to survive.

00:07:00.120 So the DNA, let's say like 100,000 years ago, if our ancestors are learning lessons that helped

00:07:06.100 them to survive, their DNA essentially says, okay, I'm going to hardwire this so I can pass

00:07:11.920 it down.

00:07:12.800 So obeying authority and being obedient towards a perceived authority was probably one of,

00:07:20.500 if not the most important thing for tribal function and when humans are in tribes.

00:07:25.660 And if they don't obey the tribal leader, they might get killed, they don't get protection,

00:07:30.760 they get less access to resources, they get disliked by the rest of their tribe because

00:07:36.440 the leader doesn't like them.

00:07:37.880 It's tremendous.

00:07:39.540 Like it's the bottom, second row, and third row of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

00:07:45.720 Like all the stuff we need to survive can essentially stem from our relationship to authority figures.

00:07:52.000 And individuals who are highly persuasive, whether they're, you know, people who, you know,

00:07:57.160 good salesmen, for example, good politicians, but also you could be like con artists.

00:08:02.180 They understand this probably intuitively, correct?

00:08:05.380 I definitely think so.

00:08:06.980 Like a good example would be like, let's say a dangerous cult is out there and they're

00:08:13.420 recruiting people into this weird cult.

00:08:15.360 And how can like a socially intelligent CEO, for example, get talked into joining this weird

00:08:23.820 cult?

00:08:25.580 And just trying to figure that out is this mammalian, this almost animal response that's

00:08:31.360 programmed into our brain to be responsive towards this confidence and charisma and authority.

00:08:36.460 And it just says, you need to trust this person and go along with what they say.

00:08:40.360 And that's an unconscious process.

00:08:42.540 We're not sitting there with a checklist or grocery list, like checking off everything

00:08:47.000 as the person displays behaviors.

00:08:50.000 Like it's an unconscious list, which we'll get into a little bit later for sure.

00:08:55.300 So yeah, the big takeaway that I think we're trying to get at, I want to frame the rest of

00:08:58.600 our conversation around is I think a lot of times when people think about social skills or

00:09:02.520 being more persuasive or, you know, being good with women, like knowing how to interact with

00:09:06.180 women, they think about all these little like hacks, like things you could say. 1.00

00:09:09.040 They think about the specific body language they should use.

00:09:12.000 And you're arguing like that's probably icing on the cake.

00:09:14.980 What you should really spend most of your time focusing on is developing that perception

00:09:18.600 of authority.

00:09:20.700 Yes.

00:09:21.160 So just getting to the point where the display of those behaviors is a byproduct of who you

00:09:27.340 are, not what you've learned.

00:09:29.360 Gotcha.

00:09:30.120 And so we've been talking about authority.

00:09:31.360 Like how are you defining authority?

00:09:32.940 I mean, is it a matter of position?

00:09:34.600 Can you have authority and not be in a position of authority?

00:09:38.060 Is it charisma?

00:09:39.260 How are you defining authority?

00:09:41.180 Well, in my training, I tend to use five factors to measure a person's level of authority.

00:09:47.800 And I even have an assessment that if you want to throw it in the show notes, you're more

00:09:51.720 than welcome to.

00:09:53.200 And it can essentially assess someone's level of authority using these five factors.

00:09:58.380 And those are confidence, discipline, leadership, gratitude, and enjoyment.

00:10:03.460 And once those all combine, it leads to authority, but it produces a behavior that I call composure.

00:10:10.920 And then a person can essentially rate themselves like, you know, like at the end of every day in

00:10:16.480 their journal or whatever on this composure scale and on those five factors.

00:10:20.380 And the more often they're doing that, the more that's being brought into awareness.

00:10:24.860 And with composure, we tend to look at composure as a pendulum, where the center would be composure

00:10:31.340 and the left side would be collapse.

00:10:34.400 Maybe the right side would be posturing.

00:10:36.700 And that's what we call those two far ends of that pendulum when we fall out of composures.

00:10:41.820 We fall one way, it's into collapsing.

00:10:43.800 And we fall the other way, it's into posturing and over-posturing behaviors.

00:10:47.480 And can composure be situational?

00:10:49.880 Like in some situations, you have more composure and therefore more authority, and then other

00:10:53.220 situations, not so much?

00:10:55.500 It can.

00:10:56.620 And I think the more that somebody is able to bring this into everyday life, and this is

00:11:02.480 one of the things I talk about a lot in my trainings is, are you able to do this off

00:11:08.480 camera?

00:11:09.160 Like when no one's looking, are you still a leader?

00:11:12.260 Are you still a role model?

00:11:14.360 When the cameras are off, no one's looking, do you still exhibit those behaviors?

00:11:19.480 And the more you get into that sort of lifestyle, the less situations will matter when it comes

00:11:25.620 to authority, I think.

00:11:27.460 So what you're saying is, if you develop these five factors, which we're going to talk about,

00:11:31.140 as a consequence of that, you will start displaying behaviors that other people will

00:11:36.740 see and perceive as you having authority.

00:11:38.900 Is that the idea?

00:11:40.380 Absolutely.

00:11:40.900 Yeah.

00:11:41.820 So I mean, for us, when we're looking at people and we're sizing people up of whether

00:11:46.920 they have composure and authority, what are we looking at?

00:11:49.240 Like what factors, what cues are we homing in on to say, yeah, this guy, this guy's got

00:11:53.160 it together?

00:11:54.260 So our brains will typically, and this is very much an unconscious process, but our brains

00:12:01.680 go through a five stage process, I would say.

00:12:05.620 So our brains are analyzing another person's movement, and it goes in this order, as far

00:12:11.840 as I can tell, I've done about 20,000 hours of research on this.

00:12:15.680 Movement first, then appearance, then confidence.

00:12:19.440 And this is essentially when our brains are looking for confidence on a subconscious level,

00:12:24.320 what that means is we're looking for a lack of reservation in behavior and movement.

00:12:29.420 And so it's movement, appearance, confidence, connection, like are they fully checked in?

00:12:36.040 So just when you think about connection, just think of the way that Bill Clinton looks at

00:12:40.200 people and connects with them when he talks to them.

00:12:42.680 And the final one here is intent.

00:12:45.880 So how am I understanding and processing this other person's intent?

00:12:49.600 And if all five of those line up, the subconscious part of our brain sees that this person is very

00:12:55.840 likely an authority.

00:12:57.080 Gotcha.

00:12:58.260 Anyway, as you're saying, sometimes people want to hack this and they do the posturing.

00:13:02.880 So they probably read some sort of research where, well, people with big body language,

00:13:07.360 you take up a lot of space, they're perceived as having more authority.

00:13:10.800 So they start doing that, but it just comes off as phony baloney.

00:13:15.620 It really does.

00:13:17.440 And I think one of the reasons that this is common is I think there's a problem in learning

00:13:24.780 new behaviors where people focus on symptoms and they ignore causes.

00:13:30.020 So let me just look at the symptoms of rich people.

00:13:33.200 For example, if I want to make money, I'm going to look at the symptoms of rich people.

00:13:36.980 Okay.

00:13:37.100 They have a big house.

00:13:38.040 That's what I need.

00:13:38.860 Then they have an expensive car.

00:13:40.480 That's what I need.

00:13:41.340 But they're not looking at causes.

00:13:42.960 So when I'm looking at, like, I take up a lot of space, my voice is crystal clear, there's

00:13:49.440 two things that really happen.

00:13:50.680 Number one, the person's focusing on symptoms instead of the cause of those behaviors.

00:13:55.580 And number two, the biggest disaster of all time when it comes down to authority and, like,

00:14:02.440 actually having real confidence is getting into a mindset where you're worried or thinking,

00:14:07.620 even just thinking about status and hierarchy.

00:14:10.440 The number one thing that I see when I train operatives is as soon as they start worrying

00:14:15.620 or thinking about status and hierarchy, it automatically starts to deteriorate their level of authority

00:14:21.720 and confidence.

00:14:23.140 Yeah.

00:14:23.320 The alpha doesn't think about being alpha.

00:14:25.740 Right.

00:14:26.300 It's not in their head.

00:14:27.700 And I think if you're doing all of this symptom stuff, you're getting into performance mode

00:14:33.400 instead of connection mode.

00:14:35.240 And when I say performance, this is if you want to just figure out what mode I'm in in

00:14:40.220 a conversation.

00:14:41.700 If you're in performance mode, you're maybe tense or feel pressured.

00:14:45.800 You're observing yourself too much in the conversation.

00:14:48.220 You're analyzing the event afterwards a whole lot.

00:14:51.160 There's not much feeling of connection.

00:14:53.100 And it feels like an evaluation from the other person while you're in performance mode because

00:14:59.380 you're performing.

00:15:00.620 And the focus is more on yourself.

00:15:02.340 And in connection mode, your focus is on the other person.

00:15:05.740 It feels like a connection.

00:15:06.960 You're feeling good about the event without needing to recall all these details.

00:15:11.400 You're feeling relaxed, comfortable, curious about the other person.

00:15:14.240 And just you're really comfortable sharing your own depth of emotion.

00:15:19.140 Yeah.

00:15:19.180 I think we've all encountered the individuals who they're in performance mode, right?

00:15:23.520 If you've been with like a salesperson, I've had this happen to me when I've had, you know,

00:15:27.900 people come out to give me estimates for a new roof or something.

00:15:30.380 And it's interesting to see the different approaches people take.

00:15:33.500 And like one guy, I can tell like, man, you're doing all the tricks.

00:15:37.000 And it just, and then there's, you have another guy comes in and he's not doing that,

00:15:42.020 but you can tell that he's got his stuff together and I actually trust him more.

00:15:46.040 It's so, so true.

00:15:47.500 But I think that some of those things, when somebody gets into performance mode,

00:15:52.520 there's maybe some anxiety there that this helps them to alleviate anxiety because I'm

00:15:58.000 going to look up these power poses to give me confidence.

00:16:01.420 And I'm going to look up, you know, these articles that are, you know, you've seen them

00:16:04.700 on like LinkedIn and stuff, like the 31 body language signs of confident people, which are

00:16:10.340 all, of course, symptoms.

00:16:12.120 But I think those help in the, sometimes in the interim with people with anxiety.

00:16:17.060 And anxiety is probably one of the things that keeps people from having confidence and

00:16:23.220 developing authority.

00:16:24.240 And I think anxiety comes from three things very specifically.

00:16:28.540 Number one is a decline in the reputation that you have with yourself.

00:16:33.880 And number two is an inability to recognize what you can and can't control.

00:16:38.700 And number three is unmet expectations or the fear of your expectations being unmet.

00:16:44.380 Those are the three like pillars that I have to get rid of in the operatives that I train.

00:16:51.000 How do those things come about in someone's life?

00:16:52.900 Like, how do they show up?

00:16:53.840 Like, why does that happen to people?

00:16:55.860 I think they just get into this mindset of, I need to manage how I'm being perceived.

00:17:01.900 And they tend to think more about status and hierarchy.

00:17:05.740 And we'll definitely cover some ways to get over that here in a little bit if you want.

00:17:10.160 Yeah.

00:17:10.500 Well, yeah, I guess they're needy, right?

00:17:12.520 And they showcase their neediness.

00:17:14.760 And I think everyone's been around a person like, oh, you're just way too needy.

00:17:17.860 Yeah.

00:17:18.180 And if you'll allow me to go back to the pendulum for just a second.

00:17:21.400 And we have composure in the middle and we have collapse and posturing.

00:17:26.580 Collapse and posturing on these far ends of the pendulum have a lot more in common than people think.

00:17:32.980 They're both trying to get the other person to give something up, whether it's respect, admiration, love, money, whatever it is.

00:17:40.560 Second, their agendas are concealed and hidden from public view.

00:17:45.360 They wear this mask to kind of conceal the collapse or they want to conceal the posturing behavior.

00:17:51.000 And they both cover up for feelings of a little bit of inadequacy and the feelings of always trying to be tough.

00:17:58.720 And I think they're both incredibly stressful states to live in.

00:18:02.400 And they're kind of rooted in insecurity.

00:18:04.780 And the one big thing that they both have in common is they both believe highly in competition.

00:18:10.820 And they kind of live their lives in a competitive instead of a collaborative frame of mind.

00:18:17.040 And then one of the things you talk about, too, is that people with authority or people with that natural influence, they tend to understand that people, most people have that neediness and those unmet desires.

00:18:28.180 And they're just kind of broken human beings.

00:18:30.020 And because they understand that, that's one of the reasons why they're able to connect with them because they can give that person what they need.

00:18:36.280 It's so, so true.

00:18:37.780 Yeah.

00:18:37.980 So, let's talk about, let's dig into these factors that contribute to people perceiving us as someone with authority.

00:18:44.820 And actually having, it's not just about perceptions.

00:18:46.500 You actually have it.

00:18:47.700 And because you actually have it, it naturally comes out in the way you present yourself.

00:18:52.060 You talk about confidence.

00:18:53.500 How do you define confidence?

00:18:56.260 I would say confidence is, if I could just use one word, it's comfort.

00:19:01.680 It's just comfort.

00:19:03.320 It's just giving yourself permission.

00:19:05.420 That's kind of what it is.

00:19:06.420 It's how you have got a good reputation with yourself and you're giving yourself permission to do something.

00:19:12.300 And one incredible thing is that if you're displaying super confident behavior to a person that you're just meeting for the first time, they will automatically assume that you've been that way for decades.

00:19:26.080 So, you're not just confident in yourself, you're carrying the permission from thousands of other people that you've interacted with.

00:19:33.960 So, they're assuming that thousands of other people accepted your confident behavior.

00:19:38.840 So, that's a really key point to make that even if it's a one-on-one interaction and you're behaving confidently, that person, if it's genuine, that person is assuming that it's been this way for years for you.

00:19:52.360 So, how do you develop this genuine confidence?

00:19:54.260 I'm sure we could dedicate a whole podcast to this.

00:19:56.000 But, you know, generally, what do you tell your operatives?

00:19:58.600 Like, what do they need to start doing in their personal lives to develop this natural confidence that will be displayed naturally when they interact with other people?

00:20:07.640 All right.

00:20:07.780 Let me give you – let me see if I could do this like a two-minute summary.

00:20:11.060 So, the first thing, I want you to start challenging yourself to be slower than anyone else in the room.

00:20:21.660 So, just set a speed limit on your body.

00:20:24.780 Just try it on for a few days of like, I will not move faster than if I was standing in a swimming pool.

00:20:30.900 So, this starts reteaching your body to just display the signs of comfort.

00:20:37.640 And second, just having the knowledge that you don't need permission to be confident is so, so critically huge.

00:20:48.020 And keeping track of your own levels of confidence throughout every single day is the way to get that down into the lower parts of the brain.

00:20:55.980 Because just thinking about it stays in the top of the brain.

00:20:58.880 If I can get my lower brain really invested in my confidence, I don't need to – I'm not talking about setting goals or anything like that.

00:21:07.640 I'm just talking about at the end of every day, I'm going to sit down and I'm going to write from 1 to 5 or 1 to 10, how was my confidence today?

00:21:15.180 That's it.

00:21:16.340 Because it's just like when you're looking for a new car, like on the internet, you're like watching all the YouTubes and all the videos and stuff about, I'm going to get this new car.

00:21:23.960 Then you buy the car and you start seeing it everywhere.

00:21:27.900 Like I just got a Tesla and I'm like, wow, everybody bought Teslas at the same time as me.

00:21:33.020 But that's not true at all, right?

00:21:35.680 So I've just repetitively shown it to my brain so much that now my brain is searching for it.

00:21:42.720 And if you can just set a competition to move slower than the person that you're speaking to and to be more comfortable, that's it.

00:21:54.760 Just start out with those two things.

00:21:56.360 I'm going to be the most comfortable person in this environment, just comfort, just relaxed, and I'm going to move slower.

00:22:03.420 Those two things are like the end monitoring.

00:22:05.920 Those three things, I would say, are this ultimate gateway to developing confidence the fastest way.

00:22:11.440 Okay, so that's a fast way to do it.

00:22:12.640 But then at the same time, you'll probably want to do things where you're developing that self-regard, right?

00:22:17.680 You're doing things that make you feel competent and confident.

00:22:20.820 So, I mean, it can come down to like setting goals and accomplishing them.

00:22:25.040 Just doing those things in your private life will help you develop that confidence for the long term.

00:22:30.300 Absolutely.

00:22:31.040 And just taking tiny, tiny steps out of your comfort zone when it comes to just talking to other people.

00:22:36.960 And you're essentially teaching the lower part of your brain like, nope, nothing bad is going to happen.

00:22:42.320 They're not going to like punch me in the face if I start acting confident.

00:22:45.520 There's not going to be like a tiger that jumps out from a closet if I start behaving confidently.

00:22:50.260 You're just slowly, gradually introducing your brain to a little bit more stressful or slightly stressful situations.

00:22:58.300 And over time, and I'm talking like just over like maybe 15 days, the confidence starts building itself and you get more and more permission.

00:23:06.640 And you'll notice like as a person becomes more and more confident, you can see that they're just giving themselves more permission.

00:23:13.220 Yeah, so it's the ability, sort of that long term, long lasting confidence is the ability to handle uncertainty no matter what's thrown at you.

00:23:21.700 And I think that's why you can tell some people like that guy's streetwise.

00:23:24.880 And it's probably because they grew up in the school of hard knocks and they've had to deal with uncertainty over and over and over again.

00:23:31.620 And because of that, they have the confidence like in any situation like, well, I handled this when I was a kid and I was, you know, I was out in war and I handled that all right.

00:23:41.880 And so it just carries over to everything they do.

00:23:44.020 So it's so true, but that can lead people to thinking like, oh, I need to go through this big rite of passage, which isn't necessarily true.

00:23:53.340 There's, there's all kinds of people who are super confident who have not been through anything like that.

00:23:59.000 We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

00:24:05.360 And now back to the show.

00:24:07.280 Yeah.

00:24:07.640 I mean, you define confidence as the ability to take action without reservation.

00:24:12.320 And I really like that, that definition because anybody, they can build up their confidence by taking part in little deprivations in their life, taking on challenges and then following through on those challenges.

00:24:24.060 And by doing that, you're going to build up that, you know, that good reputation with yourself, right?

00:24:29.720 It's like a, it's a self, a sense of self-trust.

00:24:32.400 And this really takes us to our next element of authority, which is discipline.

00:24:37.820 So why is discipline important in developing authority and how do we develop it?

00:24:41.900 Okay.

00:24:42.640 So Brett, if you and I were sitting in ATL, like the Atlanta airport, waiting on a flight or something, I could ask you with no, like, you're not some behavior profile or anything, but I could say, Brett, spot someone across that's just standing over there, you know, across the gate from Mars who is disciplined.

00:25:03.860 You could do it.

00:25:05.360 And most people could do it.

00:25:07.020 And I think that discipline has an unusual way, and I'm the number one body language expert in the world somehow, and I still can't explain this articulately.

00:25:18.860 But discipline has a way of coming up in our nonverbal communication that sends these little gut feelings to other people, like that person is a disciplined person.

00:25:29.380 And it makes us, when we see a disciplined person, obviously it's a little bit inspiring, but it makes us a little bit more likely to follow that person, who they are.

00:25:38.100 So discipline definitely shows up.

00:25:40.500 If I have off-camera discipline, when nobody's looking, it shows up in my behavior and other people can almost feel it.

00:25:48.660 Okay.

00:25:48.820 So that basically comes down to keep a schedule, manage your money right, keep your house clean, make your bed, like Jordan Peterson says.

00:25:56.040 Like, that's stuff you do.

00:25:58.220 Yeah.

00:25:58.400 And I say discipline is, I define discipline as the ability to prioritize the needs of your future self ahead of your own.

00:26:07.520 So I am taking care of Chase tomorrow, and I'm prioritizing his needs over my own.

00:26:14.260 So think of all the people, or all the times, like when I was in college, like you'd stay up all night, you know you have exams tomorrow.

00:26:20.480 You stay up all night drinking or whatever, and you wake up the next day, and you're like, oh my God, I can't believe I did that.

00:26:25.660 And you're mad at your past tense self because you didn't have concern for your future self.

00:26:32.820 So if you want to start cultivating discipline into your life, start with small little things.

00:26:38.560 And just my advice is always to become your own butler.

00:26:43.080 And this is, like, wouldn't it be great if you could wake up and everything was ready for you?

00:26:47.740 Like you got up out of bed, and your clothes are all laid out for the next day, and everything's there.

00:26:53.480 So you are your own butler.

00:26:55.880 Your past tense self did all of that for you because they put your concerns ahead of their own.

00:27:01.380 And then, like, I continue to do this, and I'll be in the kitchen with my wife, Michelle, and I'll be sticking – it's nighttime, right?

00:27:10.720 I'm about to go to bed, and I'll be sticking one of those little Keurig coffee cup pods into the coffee maker and sticking a coffee mug there ready for the next morning.

00:27:20.700 And I will out loud, I'll say, man, Chase is going to love this.

00:27:24.960 So I will continuously speak about my future self in a way that I am prioritizing his needs, and I will talk about him in the future.

00:27:33.020 And just getting a relationship to where you're looking forward in time with concern and getting to the point where you're looking backward in time at your past tense self with gratitude.

00:27:44.820 All right, so developing discipline that's going to make you naturally appear more competent and composed to other people.

00:27:52.200 And I think also what it'll do, too, as you do these things of, you know, being your own butler, working out, sticking to a schedule, managing your finances, that's also going to give you confidence, which is going to just supercharge that factor as well.

00:28:04.360 That is, yeah, yeah, absolutely, so true.

00:28:07.500 And I think all these things do feed into each other.

00:28:09.560 I'm glad you brought that up.

00:28:10.640 Yeah.

00:28:10.940 All right, so that's discipline.

00:28:12.540 What about leadership?

00:28:13.460 What do you mean by leadership?

00:28:14.360 My definition when I do trainings on leadership is that leadership is having possession of innate, like, non-acting behaviors.

00:28:26.540 Your normal behavior produces following behavior in other people on its own.

00:28:31.360 So what this means is if I'm in another culture where I don't speak the language, they would still follow some of my behaviors.

00:28:39.960 I would still be effective to some degree as a leader because of how I behave and how I act.

00:28:46.720 And I think if your behavior is producing what I call followership on its own, this means that you most likely have off-camera leadership. 0.97

00:28:56.320 Like, you're not one person at work who's all organized and everything, and you go back to your house, and you're like, your bathroom counter is just covered in crap.

00:29:05.560 You know, like, you've got piles of laundry and dishes and stuff like that.

00:29:09.080 But then when you go to work, everyone thinks that you're really well put together.

00:29:12.940 That would more likely be the person in charge and not the leader because those are two very, very different things.

00:29:18.800 Okay, so the way you develop leadership is you work on that discipline, work on that confidence.

00:29:24.400 So the next factor is gratitude.

00:29:26.280 Why does gratitude contribute to our perception of authority?

00:29:30.160 So if you look at the people that we naturally follow, that people talk about a lot, and the people that, like, one of the people that, if I'm giving training on leadership, 100% chance there's going to be a video of Andy Griffith on the screen.

00:29:45.820 I believe that, and this came to me from one of my commanders on deployment.

00:29:51.420 If you screwed up on this deployment in the Middle East, he had every box set of the Andy Griffith show of every episode.

00:30:00.100 And you had to pick a random season and a random episode and watch that episode and write a paper on how you learned a lesson to fix how you screwed up as a leader from that one episode.

00:30:12.120 And the insane thing was, in every episode, there was something that applied to a leadership mistake, a leadership lesson.

00:30:20.820 And one of those people, like, if you look at the people like Andy Griffith or Bill Clinton or the people that we just naturally gravitate towards as mentors, as leaders, they all have a look of gratitude on their face.

00:30:34.260 You can see that while you're communicating with these people, and I think gratitude has a very distinct way of showing itself in human behavior and on our face that other people don't consciously perceive.

00:30:46.920 They're not saying, oh, that's a very grateful person.

00:30:48.820 They just unconsciously perceive that level of gratitude, and it helps us to be more likely to follow a person's behavior.

00:30:56.880 And I always teach that there's the two types of gratitude if you just practice this regularly.

00:31:02.260 And you don't have to, like, go to Michael's and build a crafty little gratitude journal or anything like that, but just low-level and then high-level gratitude.

00:31:11.680 So, like, if you're eating a taco at Taco Bell, you're grateful for the employees that put it all together for you, but you're also grateful for the farmer who's supporting his family somewhere in the world who grew the lettuce that's in your taco.

00:31:24.340 So, it's like you're zooming in on gratitude and then zoom all the way out, like, on Google Earth, you know, to where you could see the entire picture.

00:31:31.880 No, I think we've all encountered leaders who have that, who display gratitude to you.

00:31:36.980 Like, you'll go to the ends of the earth for that person.

00:31:39.340 Sometimes there's leaders who will, they'll bark at you and just, you know, get results.

00:31:43.320 And in the short term, that might work, but they're not going to have that long-lasting influence because they didn't cultivate that gratitude.

00:31:51.200 So, so true.

00:31:52.260 Yeah.

00:31:53.080 And it's funny, you mentioned Andy Griffith.

00:31:55.420 That's a great, I'm going to look into that more about Andy Griffith as an example of authority and influence, right?

00:32:00.600 Wasn't that he only has, like, one gun, it's got one bullet, and it's locked up, but he's able to manage the town with just that?

00:32:06.560 No, Barney has, Barney carries the gun.

00:32:08.720 Andy never does.

00:32:09.920 Andy never does, right.

00:32:11.240 They give to Barney, yeah.

00:32:12.740 He carries Barney's bullet in his pocket.

00:32:15.220 Yeah, that's right, that's right.

00:32:17.000 And somebody asked him one time, they said, Sheriff Taylor, why is it that you don't carry a gun?

00:32:20.960 And he said, well, a lot of people respect me around here.

00:32:25.700 And if I started carrying a gun, I'd be worried that some of that respect might be fear and I might be confusing the two.

00:32:33.620 And it's just, man, the show is just such a good master class in leadership.

00:32:39.260 And it's funny.

00:32:40.360 Yeah.

00:32:40.600 It's super funny.

00:32:41.100 It's great.

00:32:41.460 It's a good, yeah.

00:32:42.080 If you have, there's this barbershop I went to, they actually set up an old black and white TV and they somehow fixed it.

00:32:49.100 So, where they put in a fire, Amazon fire stick, and they'd stream Andy Griffith shows.

00:32:55.200 And so, you're just sitting there getting your hair cut in an old-time barbershop watching Andy Griffith and just remember laughing out loud at Barney and his shenanigans.

00:33:01.480 If I'm ever out in your town, I want to go there.

00:33:04.020 Yeah, it's cool.

00:33:04.720 That sounds awesome.

00:33:05.340 All right.

00:33:05.660 So, that's gratitude.

00:33:06.680 Enjoyment is that fifth factor.

00:33:08.300 Yeah.

00:33:08.700 What do you mean by that?

00:33:10.220 This is just, it's super simple.

00:33:12.880 It's just a person's level of in-the-moment enjoyment.

00:33:16.320 If you look at people that we nationally, culturally view as the natural leaders of the world, and then just imagine one of them taking their garbage out.

00:33:29.460 Or imagine one of them mowing their yard.

00:33:32.140 Or imagine one of them just doing a mundane task.

00:33:36.560 You'd still imagine them with a tiny, tiny smile on their face, even if it's faint.

00:33:41.340 And we all have this ability to detect another person's level of enjoyment.

00:33:46.600 And I think it's the most magnetic human trait that draws people in.

00:33:52.940 And if we are able to stay in some kind of what I call calm enjoyment in my training, it's just I have the ability to just calmly enjoy these mundane tasks.

00:34:05.600 That, I think, is the cornerstone of getting started as a leader.

00:34:11.340 It's being able to live in this calm enjoyment.

00:34:15.260 Yeah, that makes sense.

00:34:15.880 I think no one likes to be around a negative Nelly. 0.70

00:34:19.240 Yeah.

00:34:19.460 We're attracted to the guy who seems like he's having a good time.

00:34:21.940 Always.

00:34:22.500 Yeah.

00:34:22.680 So, yeah.

00:34:23.920 So, we develop confidence.

00:34:25.240 We develop discipline.

00:34:26.300 We focus on developing our leadership, our gratitude, and just learning how to enjoy even the smallest of things.

00:34:33.500 As we do this, we'll naturally start displaying behaviors that will tell people that we have influence, we have authority.

00:34:42.220 Yes.

00:34:42.620 So, we'll start moving differently.

00:34:44.780 We'll start talking differently.

00:34:46.380 Maybe we even start dressing differently.

00:34:48.320 Correct?

00:34:49.200 Yes.

00:34:49.600 And I think some of those we'll do deliberately, right?

00:34:52.720 But over time, if we're practicing measuring ourselves every day on confidence, discipline, leadership, gratitude, enjoyment, and then finally, composure.

00:35:02.520 Over time, all those cool behaviors that you read about in articles and stuff like that, those become a byproduct of your new psychology, your new mindset of having authority in your life.

00:35:15.440 And then you're not faking it because we're all manufacturing gut feelings in people every single conversation that we have.

00:35:24.260 And if I want to manufacture good gut feelings in other people, then that stuff needs to be real.

00:35:29.920 So, I'm always asking the question, what can I do to make this a byproduct of everything?

00:35:37.520 Like, if I want authority, how do I make authority a byproduct?

00:35:40.740 And that's by just monitoring that stuff every day.

00:35:43.540 You don't have to be judgmental of yourself, but just getting your lower brain aware of this stuff to begin with and dragging that stuff out into the light because most people don't really want to think about it.

00:35:54.340 We're dragging it into the light and getting the brain super aware of it, and it speeds up that development so fast.

00:36:01.960 And then if you want to start implementing consciously some of these body language or social skills you read about, as you do the inner work, the stuff you start actually consciously doing will actually have more effect, likely.

00:36:13.560 So true, yeah.

00:36:15.900 So, like, as an example, a client of mine had trouble with posture.

00:36:21.220 And, you know, when people have anxiety, we want to – our bellies are really soft, right?

00:36:25.540 So, when we talk about body language, somebody gets fearful.

00:36:29.020 One of the things that happens with the body is the rib cage comes downward to protect all these soft organs that are in our belly, which makes our posture bad.

00:36:37.500 So, one client of mine had this issue, and I put this kind of a kinesiology tape that, like, a physical therapist would use this stuff called KT tape.

00:36:48.840 And it's just kind of like a two-foot strip of, like, I would say, like, mesh kind of tape made for the body.

00:36:55.700 And I would stick it on his back in an X pattern in a way that if he started slouching, it would stretch the skin.

00:37:02.360 It would – it's not painful or uncomfortable, but it instantly brings awareness to the fact that he's slouching.

00:37:07.940 So, little tricks like that.

00:37:09.520 How can I remind myself regularly to be in composure and to be confident?

00:37:15.960 And just as a quick tip, like, how can I do this even in the car when nobody's looking?

00:37:21.300 Adjust your rearview mirror in your car for next time you drive to where you have to sit up really straight to see out of your back window.

00:37:29.260 So, just angle it up just a little bit to remind you every time you look in that rearview mirror to sit up straight.

00:37:34.820 Just small little things on a daily basis like that to start correcting those nonverbal behaviors does go a long way for sure.

00:37:42.020 And again, I want to circle it back.

00:37:42.840 The reason why we're doing all this stuff, developing our authority, it just makes being influential, it makes the social component of our lives just – it'll get you 90% there, right?

00:37:52.480 Whether you're interacting with women or making a sales pitch or your leadership position at work, just developing that inner authority will get you 90% of your influence.

00:38:05.180 Absolutely.

00:38:05.920 And it just makes your life better.

00:38:07.320 Just being able to just relax because a lot of people are living off camera differently than they are on camera.

00:38:14.140 And the moment that those two things start blending together and you're like, you can walk into work and know that the person I am here at work when I'm in charge of these employees or whatever is the same person I am at home, everything changes.

00:38:26.660 In the books and in some of your interviews that I listen to preparing for our conversation, you talk about some authority killers.

00:38:33.560 What are some authority killers?

00:38:34.840 Like what are the most common ones you see in the people you work with?

00:38:38.300 I will give you – I'll give you a few here.

00:38:40.620 I think number one is rapid body movement.

00:38:45.960 And as a body language expert, there's one thing that fear makes our bodies do is protecting arteries, but it makes our bodies speed up.

00:38:54.440 Our head movement, our speech, our gestures, all of that speeds up, which is why I think that slowing down our bodies is one of the fastest ways to retrain the body to be more in composure.

00:39:07.360 And complaining, I think, is one of the big ones.

00:39:11.820 When we hear somebody complaining, we subconsciously make an agreement that they're probably not a leader.

00:39:18.400 And I will not claim to have any neuroscience to back this up, but think about the last time you heard somebody complaining.

00:39:26.920 There's something that goes on in the subconscious that says, wait, why was I paying attention to this person?

00:39:32.720 It automatically usurps some of the authority.

00:39:38.800 But I would say, overall, the biggest mistake that most people make is allowing the outside environment to determine who they are as a person and how they identify themselves.

00:39:51.720 So starting to just internalize their own feelings and not determine who they are based on how people react.

00:39:59.500 So, like, I need X, Y, and Z to feel good about myself.

00:40:04.680 That's one of the biggest.

00:40:06.080 Yeah.

00:40:06.520 There's a, I guess, in family psychology, family therapy, they call it differentiation.

00:40:11.000 You want to be well differentiated, right?

00:40:12.920 So it's like yourself isn't dependent on the emotions and feelings of other people.

00:40:17.700 And it's a hard thing to get.

00:40:18.820 It's a continual thing you have to work on all the time.

00:40:21.500 I do, too.

00:40:22.260 I mean, I don't know if you go through this, but, like, we're about to hit a million subscribers on YouTube.

00:40:26.960 And I'll go through there, and I'll read a negative comment.

00:40:32.240 And I will sometimes have a visceral reaction to it.

00:40:35.860 Like, my heart rate will go up.

00:40:37.200 Yeah.

00:40:37.980 And I was watching Eddie Murphy on an old interview.

00:40:42.460 And somebody said, oh, you have a new movie coming out.

00:40:45.520 I think it was Jay Leno.

00:40:46.320 And he said, oh, the reviews are great.

00:40:49.520 And Eddie said, oh, I don't read those reviews.

00:40:52.180 And he said, no, but they're really good.

00:40:53.540 And he said, yeah, but if you believe the good ones, that means you're going to believe the bad ones, too.

00:40:57.900 Right.

00:40:58.400 Yeah, exactly.

00:40:59.640 And it doesn't get easier.

00:41:00.980 Never does.

00:41:02.020 Yeah.

00:41:02.220 So, we've been talking about how we can develop our own charisma authority so that we can be more influential with others.

00:41:08.080 What can we do to avoid being lulled into the charisma authority of potential bad actors, right?

00:41:15.720 Like, someone trying to recruit us to a cult or MLM or, you know, manipulative boss.

00:41:21.120 Like, what can we do to be on the lookout for that so we know we're like, we got to be careful with this person?

00:41:26.640 I will tell you, like, I publish books on, like, hardcore interrogation tactics and stuff like that.

00:41:36.180 And I'm a body language expert, behavior expert.

00:41:40.640 That still does not give me, like, a vaccine against being immune to that stuff.

00:41:47.160 And when it comes to the charisma and authority, you're not going to really vaccinate yourself against it.

00:41:56.080 But I would say the more that you learn about how the brain works and how it reacts to authority and just learn a little bit about the psychological aspect of it, like the bystander effect and the Milgram experiment.

00:42:09.180 And there's another experiment called the smoke-filled room where just a person sits because other people do in a room that's filling up with smoke and the smoke alarms are going off.

00:42:20.080 They'll just sit there because other people are sitting there, which are paid actors, right, for the experiment.

00:42:26.360 But in the last experiment they did, the percentage of people that stayed in the room long enough to die was 100%.

00:42:35.980 100%.

00:42:38.040 Just because 11 people stayed in the room and they didn't leave, they didn't care about the smoke, so that person stayed because the other people did.

00:42:46.560 So, just understanding those little psychological principles can help you break away because it's in your conscious awareness and now it's not unconscious.

00:42:55.820 You're taking what the unconscious responses and making them very conscious.

00:43:00.600 And the final thing I would say is pay very close attention to how you feel in that person's absence.

00:43:08.120 So, if you're around somebody and you're like, wow, this is an incredible leader or we've got an incredible connection and I can't believe how awesome this person makes me feel, if the positive feelings go away when you're away from that person, something is off.

00:43:24.720 You should still feel good about that interaction.

00:43:27.060 It shouldn't be like you need that drug again because that person was probably using manipulative tactics on you.

00:43:32.880 So, they pumped you up with a lot of neurotransmitters and you go away and those chemicals wear off because it wasn't emotional, it was chemical.

00:43:41.740 They gave you a chemical high instead of this emotional feeling of actually feeling good.

00:43:46.760 So, pay attention.

00:43:47.780 When that conversation ends with that person, do I still feel good about it?

00:43:52.180 Do I still feel good?

00:43:54.320 And if it's not good, that might be a red flag.

00:43:58.360 Well, Chase, this has been a great conversation.

00:43:59.780 We've literally scratched the surface of your work.

00:44:01.640 Where can people go to learn more about what you do?

00:44:04.200 You can just type Chase Hughes into the App Store or you can check us out on YouTube.

00:44:09.700 I've got a pretty growing YouTube channel and we've got another channel with a few other guys that we profile human behavior called the Behavior Panel.

00:44:17.300 And it's the most fun time of my week for sure.

00:44:20.080 Fantastic.

00:44:20.460 Well, Chase Hughes, thanks for your time.

00:44:21.560 It's been a pleasure.

00:44:22.660 Brett, thanks, man.

00:44:24.080 My guest here is Chase Hughes.

00:44:25.420 He's the author of several books on behavior, including the Ellipsis Manual.

00:44:28.800 It's available on Amazon.com.

00:44:30.240 Also, check out his website at chasehughes.com where you can find more information about his work, including his course on authority.

00:44:36.360 Also, check out our show notes at awem.is slash authority where you can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic, including links to Chase's authority self-assessment matrix and his 34 behaviors that will kill your authority.

00:44:47.880 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast.

00:44:58.000 Make sure to check out our website at artofmanliness.com where you can find our podcast archives as well as thousands of articles written over the years about pretty much anything you'd think of.

00:45:04.960 And if you'd like to enjoy ad-free episodes of the AOM podcast, you can do so on Stitcher Premium.

00:45:09.160 Head over to stitcherpremium.com.

00:45:10.940 Sign up.

00:45:11.340 Use code MANLY as a checkout for a free month's trial.

00:45:13.900 Once you're signed up, download the Stitcher app on Android and iOS, and you can start enjoying ad-free episodes of the AOM podcast.

00:45:19.400 And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate if you take one minute to give us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

00:45:23.500 It helps that a lot.

00:45:24.220 And if you've done that already, thank you.

00:45:26.140 Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you think would get something out of it.

00:45:30.000 As always, thank you for the continued support.

00:45:32.060 Until next time, it's Brett McKay reminding you to only listen to the AOM podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

00:45:54.220 AOM podcast is brought to you by the AOM podcast.

The Art of Manliness - February 27, 2023

Authority Is More Important Than Social Skills

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript