Become a Focused Monotasker
Episode Stats
Summary
In both our work and our play, we re all doing more and more multitasking. But my guest today would say that all this task juggling actually makes us less productive while diminishing the quality of our work. And we d be better off curbing our multitasking in favor of monotasking. His name is Thatcher Wine, and he s the author of the book, The 12 Monotasks: Do One Thing at a Time to Do Everything Better.
Transcript
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Hey, this is Brett, we're taking a break from a new episode today, so we're rebroadcasting
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episode number 768, Become a Focused Monotasker with Thatcher Wine.
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Hope you enjoy it, we'll be back on Wednesday with a brand new episode.
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Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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Write an email while on a Zoom call, talking on the phone while walking, scrolling through
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In both our work and our play, we're all doing more and more multitasking, doing two
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things at once makes us feel as if we're being more efficient and getting more done.
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But my guest today would say that all this task juggling actually makes us less productive
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while diminishing the quality of our work and stressing our minds.
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And we'd be better off curbing our multitasking in favor of monotasking.
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His name is Thatcher Wine, and he's the author of the book, The 12 Monotasks, Do One Thing
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Today on the show, Thatcher explains the illusions around multitasking and the benefits of monotasking,
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that is, bringing our full focus to a single task at a time.
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We discussed why reading is a foundational part of becoming a monotasker, and then getting
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into some of the other activities Thatcher recommends monotasking, including walking,
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Thatcher argues that doing things like listening to a podcast while cleaning your house isn't
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necessarily a bad thing, but that you may want to try stripping everything away from
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your daily tasks except the primary tasks themselves to observe the resulting effect and
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strengthen your monotasking muscles and rebuild your attention span.
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Once you've experimented with doing a task alone, you may decide to layer back in the
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second activity, or maybe decide you actually like giving it your all.
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After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash monotask.
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So you got a book out called The 12 Monotasks, Do One Thing at a Time to Do Everything Better.
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So in this book, you make a case for monotasking, and I think to understand what that is, it's
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important to talk about what the opposite of monotasking is, and that's multitasking.
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People have probably been multitasking since time immemorial, but it wasn't until, I'd say,
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20, 30 years ago that it really became a thing in our culture.
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And in the book, you kind of do a little cultural history of multitasking.
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I mean, when did multitasking become a thing in our popular culture?
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So pretty much, if you think of our computers and how long they've been around, that's basically
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how long we've really thought about multitasking as a way of living, right?
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Well, the term was first used in the 1960s to refer to an IBM computer and how it could
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And then as people started getting personal computers, mostly in the 80s, and then got connected
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to the internet in the 90s, and we got these cell phones and smartphones in the 2000s, and
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All of our devices do all these different things, a lot of things at one time.
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And since people have invented computers, we kind of project onto them, if we made them
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do this multitasking, maybe we can do the same thing.
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Plus, at the same time, life has just gotten busier in general.
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There are a lot of demands, financial, societal pressure, social media pressure, FOMO, fear
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And so we just tend to take on more and more and more and think we can do it like our devices
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And when you were exploring and researching this book, were you able to find where people
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Like what tasks do they try to do at the same time the most?
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I mean, I think if you just look around in general, like I'm a very experiential person.
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The book does integrate a lot of research and a little bit of neuroscience.
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But my point, a lot of it is just like, you don't have to look very far.
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You know, if you go out to a restaurant and somebody's sitting by themselves, or even
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if they're with a few friends, like they're all on their phones a lot of the time.
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And, you know, unfortunately, when I drive to work or bike or go for a walk, I see people
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So it tends to be this kind of like permanent culture of doing more than one thing at a time.
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And I think we've seen over the past couple of years, you know, with the pandemic and
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the transition to more people working at home, everybody who does that can relate to the
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feeling of just having lots of browser windows like you open and doing multiple things at
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a time, being on a Zoom call, answering an email.
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Well, your kids come in and say they're hungry for lunch.
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Not all of it's dangerous multitasking, like texting and driving.
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Some of it's perfectly harmless, like folding laundry while listening to a podcast.
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A lot of my point in the book is about like bringing some awareness to, is it within your
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Did you decide to do that or did, you know, social media tempt you to?
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Some notification on your phone take you out of what you should have been doing.
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I imagine the pandemic with the Zoom has really increased the amount of multitasking.
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I've been on Zoom calls where you've heard the tappity tappity of keys on the other end
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It's like, okay, that guy's answering emails while he's talking to me.
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One of the tasks in the 12 monotasks is listening in the book.
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And I go through 12 different tasks and I know we'll talk about a few of them today.
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But one of my tips, I guess I thought of after the book, is basically listen as if you're
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What would you, like, I'm not tapping on my keys.
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I can't pay attention to anything else besides our conversation.
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You know, so if you're trying to elevate your work or your relationship or, you know,
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your conversation with your kids and really pay attention to what they're saying
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and not saying, listen like you're recording a podcast.
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You don't have to do it every single conversation all day, but it helps you really bring your
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full attention to one thing at a time and do it well.
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So the reason we multitask is to get more done.
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Very definitive research has been done on this.
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You don't get as much done as if you had, you know, done one thing at a time, then moved
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You think you're going to get more done, but you actually end up feeling more stressed and
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So you develop, basically our brains are only capable of doing one thing at a time.
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Studies have been done where there basically are 2% of the population who can be considered
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Those people can do like two cognitive tasks at a time.
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Most people can fold the laundry and listen to a podcast.
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And for the rest of us, the other 98%, like, I think it's okay that we can't do more than
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Our brains were built to like, yes, pay attention to like the dangers out there in the world.
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You know, in old days, it was like a wild animal or, you know, some sort of threat to
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So a lot of things get our attention that aren't life-altering matters.
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And when we try to pay attention to more than one thing at a time, like typing out that email
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response while half paying attention to a Zoom call, you don't do either of them well.
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You make more mistakes, it takes longer, and you get stressed out because you aren't getting
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things done and you just have this cognitive bottleneck.
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You're not quite sure why you're stressed out, not feeling good.
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But it's probably because your attention is spread so thin.
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You said that we can actually only do one thing at a time.
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So when we think we're multitasking, what we're doing is just task switching back and
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forth over and over again between one task and the next.
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Yeah, so a few definitions that are really helpful.
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So most people, when they think of multitasking, what they're actually doing is task switching.
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You do one thing, then you do another thing, and then you go back and forth and back
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The studies have been done that show it takes about 20 minutes for your brain really to come
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And if you're really fast switching back and forth, what happens is you're not giving yourself
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the 20 minutes to reset, focus on that presentation you're working on or that conversation with
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And so you're not doing a good job, and it's taking longer as a result.
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So back to the definitions, yeah, so that's task switching, which we think is multitasking.
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There's also primary tasking and background tasking.
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So that would be the example of you're listening to a podcast in the background while folding
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It's usually like a very automated, repetitive thing that you know how to do.
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And if you make the conscious decision to combine those things, that's fine.
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There are some people who can't even do either one, and I think that's great too.
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I mean, if you're aware of your own abilities to pay attention and monotask, then you can
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get through life, I think, much better and figure out where to put your attention and focus.
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All right, so multitasking, it causes more errors, actually sometimes make things take
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We've had him on the podcast talking about his idea of deep work.
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When you try to multitask, it actually just makes the work crappier oftentimes.
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And then also just that back and forth switching, it stresses you out.
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And that's why a lot of people, I don't know, you hear a lot of people talking like, I'm
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And they're like, but I don't really do anything.
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And it's likely all that task switching they've been doing throughout the day between their
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smartphone and their computer and their kids and drive.
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And I'm a huge Cal Newport fan and his work has been very influential in my work and both
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as how I run my business, which is called Juniper Books, just as a small business entrepreneur
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and manager and creative, like how to focus and get things done.
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But then it's also influenced how I think about monotasking and the concepts of, especially
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when it relates to technology and kind of practicing digital minimalism in order to wean yourself
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off your devices and then reclaim your ability to get your deep work done.
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I should say a lot of, I think the pressure that people feel that you mentioned to do
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more than one thing at a time that results in, you know, being overwhelmed and not getting
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Like there's just this glorification of multitasking and always doing more in our society these
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days and then you add on the technology, which convinces you that you're good at it.
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You can do it, you know, gives you just enough notifications and feedback that like you keep
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But, you know, if you look at where our time goes and how happy we are these days and how
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that tracks against, you know, the increase of technology in society, it's, you know, it's
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So I think we have to reclaim our ability to focus this way.
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I think a lot of people have heard the research that multitasking isn't effective, but I know
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that stuff, but I still struggle to let go of the idea.
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Like I still want to do as much as I can at the same time.
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And I think that goes back, we had Oliver Berkman on the podcast a couple months ago,
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And he makes this interesting case that a lot of, it's just part of being human.
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Like we were able to think about infinite things that we can do, but we're finite beings
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And he makes this case, a lot of productivity, you know, tactics that we've developed.
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It's, it's trying to make us try to make our finite cells into infinite cells or be able
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And he says, you know, you kind of have to resign yourself that you are not infinite.
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So you have to just be okay with doing, getting as much done as you can in a day and not freaking
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I mean, I think we have to acknowledge the realities and that's a lot of what his book
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is about that, you know, yes, you want to do more and more, but we are humans.
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And what the solution to living a happier, more fulfilling life is not to just always
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And so a lot of what I bring it back to in the 12 monotasks is about the present moment.
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And in each moment, you can only be doing one thing at a time.
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You may aspire to, you know, get more done, make more money, have more friends, you know,
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But in each individual moment, like that's where everything really happens.
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And so if you choose to do one thing in that moment, that's really, I think the key to
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The downsides of multitasking is taking longer on stuff, doing stuff, not as well, feeling
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I imagine the benefits of monotasking is, are, is the opposite of those things.
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So I think of it in, you know, three or four kind of key benefits of monotasking.
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So that feeling of being overwhelmed and not getting anything done leads to, you know,
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less stress if you monotask instead of multitasking.
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The third thing is you, you increase your happiness.
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And that, a lot of that comes from improving your relationships with other people, being more
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And with the people you either work with or your family, your friends, and just being
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more connected to everybody, not being, you know, half paying attention all the time.
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The productivity, the stress, and the happiness.
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I imagine, do you still struggle with multitasking, even though you've written the book on monotasking?
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I say, you know, I wrote it largely for myself out of my own experience, like how I went through
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some very distracting things, like in addition to all the distractions that we faced that we've
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talked about as far as technology and work and just keeping up with the pace of life.
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I went through cancer treatment a few years ago, and a divorce, and putting my business
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back together after going through those things.
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And I really had to kind of sit down and figure out, like, how do I navigate my way through
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all this, continue to do good work, be productive, creative, successful, be a good father?
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And, you know, how have I done it in the past, like even before I went through those things?
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And so the philosophy very much came out of that.
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Like, it's just made me more aware of when I'm multitasking versus monotasking.
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And I think it's made a huge improvement in my life.
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I say for everyone, like, it's not about achieving some sort of monotasking sainthood,
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It's not like you're going to get to this enlightened level, and all the problems are going to go
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It's more about having an awareness that this is something you're going to have to face,
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like in every moment, and definitely into the future as the future gets more distracting.
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There's going to be more technology, more pressure of every kind to, you know, pay attention
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So it's good to build what I call the monotasking muscles now so that you have them for everything
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So in the book, you highlight 12 tasks that you think are right for monotasking and help
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So a lot of my thinking about reading goes back a really long time, and it's very connected
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to the work that I do at Juniper Books, where we curate book sets and book collections for
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clients around the world and try to give people more and more reasons to buy books and keep
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And especially as I was going through cancer treatment, I was thinking like, why do I do
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And how can I, you know, should I do it on the other side of these health issues?
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So I really started thinking about reading in a broader sense than just bookselling, for
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And I think books are just inherently good for us as human beings.
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Not only are they great for like learning new things and being entertained, but they
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So when you read for 20 minutes or however long you read for, you get back a strengthened
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attention span because you gave your attention, like it all went into one single point of focus
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And I am a big believer in printed books because I think we all look at screens too much.
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And I think the experience of reading a printed book just feels different.
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Having an object in your hands, feeling, you know, where you are in the book, how far through
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So I thought a lot about reading, why it's good for the world.
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I researched, you know, really dedicated readers in the world like Oprah Winfrey, Warren Buffett.
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And I don't think it's a coincidence that some of the most successful people in the world
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Their ability to pay attention and be productive is enhanced by their reading habits.
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So I put, you know, all these things together and I thought about technology and smartphones
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and I thought reading a book is kind of the opposite of a smartphone.
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Looking at your smartphone fragments it, makes you think you can multitask and do lots of
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And so that's kind of where I thought of the definition of a monotask to begin with was
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And then I expanded that to think about, well, what if we took that same approach, that focus
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that we bring to reading and applied it to other everyday activities.
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And then I, you know, started looking into and writing about walking, listening, sleeping,
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thinking, and how just if you give those 100% of your attention, can you do them better?
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And can they give you something back in the same way that books and reading give you back
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your strength and attention span and ability to pay attention to everything in life and do
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So you don't, you don't just have to read all the time.
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It's a great exercise to strengthen that monotasking muscle because especially paper books.
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And I think the thing that makes reading difficult today is that we try to do it on our screens.
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And I found, and I think they've done research, like Nicholas Carr has done research on this.
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When we, when we consume text via a screen, we have a tendency to skim more and you're just
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But if I have like a paper book or like a paper magazine, that's all, that's the only thing
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And it really forces you to stick with the reading.
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If you're reading on a smartphone, there's always that temptation to like switch apps or
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And it doesn't allow you to get really focused.
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Nicholas Carr and I have had some great conversations over the years about the value of printed books.
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And, and I have an excerpt that he wrote in my, in the 12 monotasks as well.
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And a lot of it, yeah, it does come down to that like physical tactile relationship you
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That's very different from the screen and how your brain, you know, creates a physical
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tactile or physical map of what's happening in the book, draws connections between things.
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And the information tends to sink in more than what we read on the screen.
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Plus, you know, I'm a big believer and basically built a whole career out of like what your books
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So they, they sit on your shelves and they tell a story even without opening them and
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They tell a story across your bookshelves and they were, every time you walk by them or
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see them in the zoom background or see somebody else's books, when you go to their house or
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see it on the screen, you learn about them and kind of their relationship to the world
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They may not have read all those books, but that's, those are the subjects that interest
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So I think books just have this storytelling capability and we have a different relationship
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to them than just what the digital version of the content shows us on the screen.
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And what I like about it is, you know, I've got bookshelves all over in our house and I
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like being able to walk by and then just like the spine catches my eye for whatever reason.
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And then I pull it out and I, oh, there's this new bit or here's a refresher of something
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I noticed I've got, you know, a couple hundred books on my Kindle.
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I never think about the books on my, in fact, I forget which books I have on my Kindle.
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They're down like this digital black hole that I can never access again because it's not
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You know, you never, I don't know how many people are going to cocktail parties these
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days, but you don't go to a cocktail party and say, Hey, can I take a look at your Kindle
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and see what you, what's on your reading list and then decide what to talk about.
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So yeah, books are really fun, whether it's you or somebody else seeing them just to see
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So how do you train your brain for monotask reading?
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I mean, what's, if someone hasn't monotasked reading in a while and their brain's all,
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you know, scattered from consuming content on their phone, what's a good way to start
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And I think you first have to acknowledge that it is hard and that it's different from
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what we've been used to doing, looking at our phones and not having to sit with a little
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bit of, you know, what may feel like boredom and silence and quiet for a little time that
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So at first they might seem unfamiliar and different, and that's a good thing.
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But I think, you know, you have to start wherever you are.
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And in the book, I talk about reading as a monotask being about 20 minutes long.
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You can start with 30 seconds, but I would highly recommend starting, you know, always
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It can be a newspaper, could be a magazine article, could be a book you've read before,
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and therefore it's a lot easier to read and kind of re-enter the world of reading.
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Go to the bookstore, you know, and just intuitively pick out something that speaks to you.
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Expect that you might read a few pages, your mind will wander.
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You may have to go back a little bit, and that's okay.
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If you give it your full attention, you'll find that your attention will strengthen each
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And if you can build a habit of maybe reading the same time every day or at the same place
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in your home, it'll start to cue your attention to the fact that, like, you're focusing, this
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is what you're doing in this place at this time.
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It may take a while to figure out what the right routine is for you, but it's definitely
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And once you get into that rhythm, you'll find that it's just like an infinite world of
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discovery, and you can use it for learning about, you know, your work, something about
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your kids, or just being entertained in a way that you haven't been entertained in the
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We're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.
00:24:15.340
In the book, you start off, in the chapter, you start off talking about some famous monotasking
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Basically, philosophers, thinkers, scientists have used walking throughout history to work
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out their ideas, their thoughts, to just get away from the stress of life, even before
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all this technology and, you know, the fast-moving pace of 21st century life.
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So people like Jean-Jacques Rousseau, or Nietzsche, the philosopher, or Socrates, they all walked
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And that might sound like a multitask to you, and it can be.
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So I wouldn't necessarily recommend walking to go come up with a brilliant idea.
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But if you put down your work and leave things behind and go out into nature or even the city,
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go around the block, whatever you have available to you, if you give your full attention to it
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and pay attention to your walk, like the sounds of your feet, the sounds of nature, the sights
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that you're seeing, if you resist the temptation to take a picture on your iPhone, things like
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that, you'll really treat walking as a monotask.
00:25:22.320
And then you can decide to add back later some problem-solving that you want to do, or some
00:25:29.660
So walking is one of those tasks that it's easy enough where you could multitask.
00:25:34.720
You could, again, like think about something, or you even talk on the phone, or let's do a
00:25:42.400
You're okay with people listening to a podcast and folding laundry.
00:25:46.120
But it sounds like you're encouraging people to, every now and then, just focus on an easy
00:25:52.600
task, like a task as simple as walking, so you can strengthen those monotasking muscles.
00:25:58.140
I think the first step is to strip everything away and get down to one task and identify that
00:26:05.140
And then you can decide to add back, layer on, and occasionally multitask.
00:26:10.280
But it will be within your control because you will have identified when you're monotasking
00:26:17.240
And you'll also be strengthening your monotasking muscles so that you can better resist distractions
00:26:29.600
When I get it done, I'm going to move on to the next thing.
00:26:32.420
So with monotask walking, that's just, you're not going to be, you're just going to go and
00:26:47.200
I think that's a great way to think of it, yeah, as like a mindfulness or meditative
00:26:58.520
So if you think about your other senses, like sound, hearing, the sounds you're hearing,
00:27:07.860
And, you know, if you want to touch the trees or the flowers or something, that's fine.
00:27:11.720
But it's basically bringing your attention fully to the walk in order to relax your mind.
00:27:19.820
And I think like people, when you're thinking about something else and doing another thing,
00:27:26.200
so if you're thinking while walking, because it's happening in your own brain and nobody
00:27:31.640
can see you doing it, it doesn't like necessarily fit the classic definition of multitasking
00:27:38.960
So I think it's good to bring some awareness to that.
00:27:41.500
It's not always a bad thing, but just to acknowledge, you know, I am trying to do two
00:27:49.380
I'm going to give more of my attention to it and see what happens.
00:27:52.980
And I guess a good way to start with that, I think you talk about the book 20 Minutes.
00:27:58.340
Again, just like go for a 20-minute walk where all you're focused on is the walk.
00:28:02.620
And I'll repeat the 20 minutes a lot in several of the monotests throughout the book, because
00:28:08.060
I think it's a good goal for our attention spans.
00:28:11.700
I mean, studies have been done these days that show that a lot of people can't pay attention
00:28:22.500
There's so much every person wants to do on this planet, whether it's on their to-do
00:28:28.340
list or just having a great relationship, their family or their partner.
00:28:33.680
And we have to basically reverse the trend from fragmenting our attention.
00:28:44.720
It only will get better and go the opposite direction if we do things like go for a walk
00:28:50.520
for 20 minutes or read a book for 20 minutes and the other monotasks.
00:28:54.280
And it seems like also walking is a great monotask to do when you're switching from one task to
00:28:59.900
Because as you said, it takes you, what, 25 minutes for your brain to shift from one activity
00:29:07.280
Walking can kind of be like that buffer where you sort of clear.
00:29:09.820
So you work on one project at work, you're done.
00:29:15.140
You come back and your brain's kind of ready to work again.
00:29:23.980
I mean, it's like if you acknowledge, hey, I'm going to lose that 20 minutes anyway,
00:29:27.900
while my brain kind of consolidates this information from the last thing and gets ready for the
00:29:32.300
next thing, it's the perfect time to go for a walk.
00:29:34.960
I often say when you least think you have the time to go for a walk, that's,
00:29:42.260
So it will help you with everything else you need to do going forward.
00:29:49.280
So instead of surfing Reddit or whatever, go for a walk.
00:29:58.680
Listening to media, so we're talking like music or maybe an audio book, it seems like one
00:30:03.500
of those tasks that you could do at the same time.
00:30:06.200
It's mindless, simple enough that it's okay to multitask listening to a podcast while doing
00:30:11.880
Despite that, you still encourage people again to like, why don't you just try listening to
00:30:22.920
And I think nobody else is really encouraging people in the world to do one thing at a time.
00:30:29.740
It's, yes, you can do more than one thing at a time, but that doesn't necessarily mean
00:30:37.060
And because listening in that one-way listening example, whereas two-way listening would be
00:30:45.300
So the one-way listening would be more like a podcast or a university lecture.
00:30:50.160
And if you can develop the ability to pay attention to the whole thing, which is really
00:31:00.340
I think very few people could actually pay attention to an hour-long class or podcast.
00:31:07.560
And, but if you strengthen your ability to pay attention in longer increments, you'll
00:31:13.380
absorb more of the information, you'll spend less time going back and re-listening to it,
00:31:18.200
and then you can apply it again where you need to.
00:31:20.920
So if you are going back to school or getting a graduate degree or something, you know, those
00:31:28.120
And I have two kids, you know, and I can see what happens to their brains with technology.
00:31:34.840
And I have to wonder, you know, when they progressively go through their education and go to college
00:31:40.040
and everything, like, is their ability to sit in one place, be a little bit bored in a
00:31:45.260
classroom and listen to a lecture and get all the information affected.
00:31:48.980
So I think it's just a good skill for all of us to have to strengthen that.
00:31:52.660
And thankfully, like, there are all these great podcasts and sources of listening out there
00:31:59.660
No, and I think I have a tendency, my wife has this tendency too, like, she'll listen to
00:32:04.200
a podcast while she's doing a chore, like folding laundry or just cleaning the house.
00:32:11.440
When I've got some other chore, I'll listen to a podcast and I find that, yeah, on the
00:32:15.580
one hand, it kind of gives you something to do while you're, you know, twiddling away with
00:32:22.020
But at the same time, I noticed that I miss things in the audio.
00:32:25.440
Like, actually, I felt like I miss things that I'm listening because I'm focused on this
00:32:28.680
task that I'm doing or the task that I'm multitasking, listening to audio with takes
00:32:33.940
longer because I stop and listen to the like, oh, here's this good part in this episode.
00:32:38.000
And so, you know, cleaning takes longer if I just had been cleaning and not listening
00:32:44.720
And if you think about the cleaning as a monotask, it's not one of the 12 monotasks in my book,
00:32:50.280
but you can do anything as a monotask with your full attention and you will be the judge.
00:32:57.820
Like, you don't need a research study to tell you, did you do it better?
00:33:04.080
Did you maybe find ways that you enjoyed it that you had kind of numbed out before?
00:33:10.200
And cleaning may not be the best example in terms of discovering amazing new things about
00:33:14.860
yourself, but there are lots of things in this world that I think we've gotten used to
00:33:22.620
It's obvious in a podcast, you know, if you gave me a quiz, 20 questions, these came up,
00:33:28.240
And it's not going to be so obvious with cleaning or folding the laundry, but I think
00:33:33.160
there's something to discover in everything we do if we pay attention to it.
00:33:39.680
I've seen conflicting research on this and the one has seen research.
00:33:44.040
Other research says, no, it's actually distracting.
00:33:46.120
You should just put on noise canceling earphones and just work in complete silence.
00:33:54.960
Their brains work differently with different stimuli.
00:33:59.120
For me, I find music to be really helpful for working out, just changing my mood, essentially.
00:34:05.180
And I think probably a lot of people can relate to that.
00:34:07.680
You want to go high energy, put on some loud music.
00:34:11.780
Whereas with work, if I really have to think, I can't listen to anything with lyrics.
00:34:17.700
I can sometimes listen to classical music or piano or something like that.
00:34:23.340
But other times, I'll just now, because I'm so used to thinking as a monotask, I sit down
00:34:32.520
And sometimes an hour later, I forget that I never put on any music.
00:34:35.720
It's more just the ritual of here's where I'm going to be.
00:34:40.600
I'm going to give my full attention to my work and thinking.
00:34:44.060
And the music is not really required as part of that.
00:34:48.720
Some people might find that it is required for them to do their best thinking or other work.
00:34:53.400
So another part of listening is that two-way conversation when we're talking and listening
00:35:03.420
What gets in the way of monotasking to this kind of interpersonal listening?
00:35:08.580
And I think it's when early readers read the book, they said that that was one of the chapters
00:35:15.820
And I think a lot of that is because we've built up this expectation that people aren't
00:35:26.220
And it's surprising to us when they do listen, when they give us their full attention.
00:35:32.040
We kind of expect that someone's going to be scrolling through their social media and
00:35:36.200
just nodding their head, whether they're in person or not.
00:35:41.960
I mean, one is because our smartphones make it really hard.
00:35:50.560
Even if we're not using them, you're thinking about them on the table there.
00:35:55.540
You're wondering if your phone just notified you or rang or whatever, or if your kids might
00:36:03.100
So I think there's this expectation that we are going to be distracted, we are going to
00:36:08.640
be interrupted, and it doesn't let us settle into a 100% listening state.
00:36:15.400
And for the person who's doing the talking, they may not pay attention even to what they're
00:36:22.460
saying because they're just assuming that the other person is only going to listen to
00:36:27.460
So I think another thing that gets in the way is that a lot of times people are multitasking
00:36:33.000
in that they're half listening and half thinking.
00:36:35.800
You're thinking about what you're going to say in response as soon as the person stops
00:36:39.000
finishing talking, or you're going to think about how to interrupt them.
00:36:42.400
So I think if you can just truly listen, and then when it's your turn to talk, monotask
00:36:53.840
And it can just change the cadence of the conversation, the amount that you hear.
00:36:58.680
And I think when people really feel listened to, they feel very valued, and you end up
00:37:04.060
having a closer friendship and relationship with them.
00:37:06.640
There are definitely some, you know, just kind of an unlimited number of opportunities
00:37:10.440
that we have in our daily lives to interact with other people and do a better job listening
00:37:14.940
If you really approach it as a monotask, I think you'll see the benefits very quickly.
00:37:20.000
So traveling is a time that a lot of people multitask, but you encourage people to monotask
00:37:28.020
So I mentioned, you know, the prevalence of texting and driving earlier.
00:37:32.400
And that was originally where the idea for that chapter came from.
00:37:36.600
And just my own like, personal public service announcement, to be honest, I then broadened
00:37:45.020
And the chapter really covers everything from commuting to traveling for pleasure.
00:37:49.360
And just how we've, yeah, we've become habitually accustomed to multitasking while we travel,
00:37:55.520
whether that's listening to an audio book while driving, or making a phone call, or, you
00:38:01.540
know, we're taking a train or plane, like doing something else during the time.
00:38:05.660
And if you identify which of those things are truly dangerous, if you're the driver, those
00:38:13.560
Other things that are just distractions and multitask that are maybe taking away from your
00:38:18.960
experience of traveling to a foreign country, or taking a trip you've never been on, or making
00:38:25.320
Those things are in, you know, a separate bucket.
00:38:28.880
And again, like we've talked about before, it's about kind of unwinding all the multitasks
00:38:35.640
So if you gave your attention to the journey, can you notice more things out the window that
00:38:43.120
Can you plan out a new route to work to make it more interesting?
00:38:51.100
So most people can effectively and safely listen to an audio book or a podcast on their commute.
00:38:59.380
It's just about, you know, bringing some awareness to it.
00:39:02.140
There are some things that really do stress people out, and they'll make mistakes, like
00:39:13.080
They get more stressed out, like we've talked about.
00:39:15.100
So it can just help kind of give yourself permission to do one thing at a time and figure
00:39:20.980
out whether you're capable of adding other tasks back later.
00:39:24.000
Yeah, I think monotasking traveling is a great way to exercise that muscle.
00:39:27.360
There's been times where I'll just not have the radio on.
00:39:30.120
It's a great time to exercise that muscle to not check your phone when you're at a stoplight
00:39:40.560
I've done this when I've been feeling, I don't know.
00:39:47.280
So just like sitting on the plane and not reading or listening to a podcast, I can't
00:39:53.020
last that long because it's the most, it's pretty tedious.
00:39:55.260
So if you're feeling, if you really want to exercise those monotasking traveling muscles,
00:39:58.920
try just to sit on an airplane and look around you.
00:40:08.420
So why do we reach for our phones at stoplight or wherever?
00:40:11.920
Like, is it really going to be a life-altering message we have to see or respond to or something?
00:40:18.780
And are we no longer capable of sitting with that boredom for a few seconds or a few minutes
00:40:32.980
We had to like daydream or look for something interesting or strike up a conversation with
00:40:42.360
So who knows where to lead, but it can all start with monotasking.
00:40:46.340
So another task you encourage people to monotask is their play, which seems kind of weird.
00:40:50.340
Like people would try to multitask while they're playing.
00:41:04.160
So, I mean, I know people haven't been going as much in recent years because of the pandemic.
00:41:08.680
But in general, if you go, like a lot of people have their phones out and they're taking pictures,
00:41:18.240
You know, occasionally I'll catch myself if I go see a show thinking about work.
00:41:27.020
So whether it's taking pictures and not really being present in the moment, enjoying it, or
00:41:33.200
thinking about something else and kind of being stressed while you're supposed to be having fun.
00:41:37.280
If you basically give yourself permission again to just immerse yourself in the play, then you'll be in the present moment.
00:41:50.680
You'll be connected with the people you're with.
00:41:53.240
And you'll truly be able to press that reset button again and be more productive the next day or whenever you're done with your play.
00:42:00.480
So this can apply to like going to the gym, going for a bike ride, kicking the ball around the park, taking your dog for a walk.
00:42:08.080
Anything, if you just do it with your full attention and catch yourself when you're maybe thinking of something else or doing two things at once,
00:42:16.580
scrolling your social media feed at the dog park, just, you know, it's totally fine.
00:42:21.800
Like acknowledge it, let it go, bring yourself back to the play.
00:42:28.320
No, I've noticed myself multitasking while playing, especially when I'm playing with my kids.
00:42:33.820
It's not like I'm doing something in front of them, but like I'm thinking about all the stuff I need to be doing, right?
00:42:44.420
And I've catched myself like, I'm not really playing here.
00:42:51.820
And, you know, our culture, a lot of people on social media, you know, will make it look like they're having this great life full of play and all this stuff.
00:43:05.380
No, those people are thinking about their social media photo post and caption and everything while they're ostensibly playing and they're asking somebody else to take the picture.
00:43:14.300
So we get the sense that, you know, there's this fear of missing out.
00:43:20.760
They all have this leisure time and go on these great trips and have these great cars and all that.
00:43:25.140
Those people are just as stressed out or more about the next post than you are.
00:43:34.560
And whether you're doing your work or playing, do it with your full attention.
00:43:38.820
No, yeah, there's that, there's some quote about like work when you work, play when you play, don't focus about anything else.
00:43:46.560
Just because that'll just lead to, it stresses you out less when you do that, when you just focus on one thing at a time.
00:43:52.260
So another monotask is thinking, but like we've talked about thinking is one of those things you can do, you do all the time, right?
00:43:58.300
Like you can think when you're walking, you can think when you're listening to someone else talk about whatever.
00:44:02.740
You can think when you're listening to a podcast, why make set, set aside dedicated times where the only thing you are doing is thinking.
00:44:10.780
It has a lot to do with the fact that as human beings, we have these amazing capabilities to think and use our brains to do everything in life.
00:44:21.260
But do we take it for granted sometimes that we're just going to think in the background or that we can think of multiple things at once?
00:44:30.540
It's like how, what if we really could harness our capabilities, our cognitive abilities to do our work, to problem solve, to, you know, just build everything, do everything better in life really.
00:44:45.120
And a lot of times, you know, I'm, I can be an overthinker.
00:44:49.880
And so thinking, the thinking monotask is not necessarily like fixate your brain on one thing and do it.
00:45:00.040
It's more just bring your full attention, your full presence to when you are thinking and when you need to think in order to do the best work possible and to live life really well.
00:45:10.740
And sometimes you have to go for a walk or go play in order for that creative idea to pop into your head.
00:45:19.840
So it's not always going to come from giving 100% of your attention to thinking.
00:45:24.580
I think people can relate to that and creatives like you don't always have your best idea when you're trying to come up with your best idea.
00:45:30.240
It'll pop into your mind in a dream or in the shower.
00:45:33.160
And I think monotasking in general is not just about the task that you're doing.
00:45:46.960
So if you figure out, you know, I do my best work when I go for a bike ride, I come up with my best creative ideas or I get, you know, going on trips really inspires me to bring back ideas at home to put to work.
00:45:59.560
If you monotask around that, you observe yourself and when you do your best thinking, then you can do a better job when you actually do sit down at your desk or wherever you decide to do your deep work to, you know, quote, reference the Cal Newport book again.
00:46:13.320
Well, Thatcher, this has been a great conversation.
00:46:14.820
Is there some place people can go to learn more about the book and your work?
00:46:17.980
So I create a website that's basically a companion to the book, The 12 Monotask.
00:46:22.660
So if you go to monotasking.tips, T-I-P-S, the website ends in tips, not .com, you can order the book from there.
00:46:31.680
You can basically find all the local bookstores that sell it.
00:46:35.960
The book is called The 12 Monotask, Do One Thing at a Time to Do Everything Better.
00:46:40.640
And I'm reachable through the website and through my own site, thatcherwine.com and also through juniperbooks.com.
00:46:57.580
It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.
00:46:59.860
You can find more information about the book at his website, monotasking.tips.
00:47:03.720
Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash monotask.
00:47:06.540
We find links to resources where we delve deeper into this topic.
00:47:16.200
Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast.
00:47:18.680
Make sure to check out our website at artofmanless.com where you find our podcast archives,
00:47:22.400
as well as thousands of articles written over the years about pretty much anything you think of.
00:47:25.340
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00:47:48.200
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00:47:49.940
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00:47:54.600
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