The Art of Manliness - Becoming a Tech Intentional Family

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.540 In a family, a lot of the dynamics around devices and screens are reactive in nature.

00:00:16.900 Kids bug for their own smartphones, parents worry they'll be left out without one,

00:00:21.080 without weighing the pros and cons, give in to their kids' requests. Parents let children

00:00:25.520 have a ton of screen time because it lets the parents do what they want. Then, they reach a

00:00:30.000 moment where they feel disturbed about how much time their kids are on screens, berate their children

00:00:34.140 for this habit, which they facilitated, and vow that things are going to abruptly turn around.

00:00:39.400 Rather than basing your policies about kids and screens on mood, fear, and impulse, it would be

00:00:44.140 better to do so based on reason and reflection. Emily Cherkin has some ideas on how to get there.

00:00:49.460 Emily's a former teacher, a screen time consultant who helps parents and educators balance the role

00:00:53.700 of devices in kids' lives, and the author of The Screen Time Solution, a judgment-free guide to

00:00:59.080 becoming a tech-intentional family. Today on the show, Emily unpacks the state of screen time

00:01:04.000 amongst kids today, how the displacement hypothesis explains how its impact extends beyond a decline

00:01:09.000 in mental health, and why parents give their kids smartphones even when they're not sure it's good for

00:01:13.320 them. We then turn to how families can become more tech-intentional, and how that starts with

00:01:18.140 parents taking a look at their own behavior. We discuss why putting parental controls on devices

00:01:22.380 isn't the ultimate solution, why a better one is based on your relationship with your kids,

00:01:27.140 why you need to live your digital life out loud, and some considerations to think through before

00:01:31.260 getting your kid their first smartphone. After the show's over, check out our show notes at

00:01:35.080 awim.is slash screen time.

00:01:48.980 Emily Cherkin, welcome to the show.

00:01:50.240 Thank you so much for having me.

00:01:52.000 So you are a screen time consultant. You help parents help their kids manage their screen time.

00:01:57.840 You also do education with educators. You're also doing some activism, trying to get some

00:02:03.440 regulations going on to help the tech not be so pernicious in our kids' lives. So give us an

00:02:10.160 overview about screen time use amongst young people these days. How many hours of screens are kids

00:02:16.320 getting? Yes, that's a good question, and it's a lot. The most recent data that I've been using is

00:02:21.720 from the Center for Disease Control, which was just this summer, and they found that on average, kids

00:02:25.760 between 8 and 18 are spending seven and a half hours a day. What really surprises me, well, I guess it's

00:02:32.320 not surprising, but shocking, is that between 11 and 14-year-olds are about nine hours a day, and this is

00:02:37.660 daily average. So some more, some less. So that's a lot of time. And generally speaking, these numbers

00:02:43.620 do not include the time on screens for school, which is a different problem. Yeah.

00:02:48.280 Yeah, so this is just screen time at home.

00:02:50.480 Yeah, right. So pre-pandemic, a lot of parents were worried about how much time my kids are on

00:02:57.220 screens when they come home from school. And then tech in school was already kind of creeping in,

00:03:02.020 but of course, lockdown and remote learning threw a lot of fuel on that fire. And now

00:03:06.160 it's screen time at school plus screen time at home. So we're talking, for some kids, it could be

00:03:11.280 10, 12, 13 hours a day when you combine school screen time plus home screen time. So it's a lot.

00:03:17.380 That's a lot of screen. Yeah. You talk about in your book how the pandemic just accelerated

00:03:21.180 the rise in screen time use. Yeah. And, you know, I think the pandemic did a lot of things

00:03:27.000 to change the world and it definitely accelerated this problem, but it was a problem before. You

00:03:32.020 know, I think we can't entirely blame the pandemic for it. Like there was a twofold effect to the amount

00:03:38.760 of screen time kids were having at school, both again, personally and for school, like remote learning

00:03:42.840 was that parents did get sort of a peek behind the curtain and could see a lot more about what

00:03:48.140 was happening on school devices in terms of the tech for school. And parents were often also stuck

00:03:55.140 between a rock and a hard place with like, well, I have to work or I have to do this or I don't have

00:03:58.640 childcare. And so, so it was a lot. I do think the good part of this is there's a lot more awareness

00:04:04.360 of it as a challenge, but the not so good part is that it's the numbers have just gone up so

00:04:09.540 rapidly. Do we have any statistics on when kids are being introduced to their first screen? I'm

00:04:14.920 not talking about television, probably maybe like an iPad or something like that. Yeah. I mean,

00:04:18.620 what's crazy is it's infancy is what we're, you know, again, it's anecdotal. I think it really

00:04:24.880 depends because it's not like parents are handing a newborn a phone, but if you imagine that a newborn

00:04:30.340 is being held while a parent holds a phone, you're having an impact, right? Like that's that,

00:04:35.680 a triangulation experience of a baby, a parent and a phone. And, you know, I'll be really careful

00:04:42.180 upfront here to say, I'm not, I always say it's not parents fault that this has gotten so bad,

00:04:46.980 but it is our responsibility to better understand what we're doing. And it starts literally pre-birth,

00:04:53.480 pre, you know, getting children in our lives. And so a lot of it has to do with parental use of

00:04:58.660 screens as that impact or in those early years. But we do know that for smartphone ownership,

00:05:04.140 nearly a third of eight-year-olds now have their own smartphone. So it used to be kind of like we

00:05:09.820 were talking about high schoolers and maybe middle schoolers, but we're now talking about elementary

00:05:13.940 schoolers with phones. And those who don't have phones often have like an Apple watch or a smart

00:05:19.620 watch instead of a phone. And we can talk about that too, but I'm not sure they're better.

00:05:24.300 Yeah. Okay. So screens, you're getting introduced to screens at infancy. I remember, so I remember

00:05:30.820 my son was born in 2010 and that was around the, when the iPad came out.

00:05:36.000 Yep. Yep. My daughter's 2011. So I got an iPad for me. I never, I didn't think this is for my kid.

00:05:42.520 And so I used it. And then when he was maybe like a year old, I remember like, oh, well there's apps

00:05:48.540 for kids that you can learn letters. So I downloaded, you know, an app for, and he, he did it, but now

00:05:54.120 you're, you're seeing parents, like they'd get a screen, like a pad just for their toddler.

00:05:59.800 Yeah. And that's definitely a big difference. I have a 16 year old as well. And I remember when he

00:06:04.680 was about one or two, you know, he figured out pretty quickly how to swipe on the iPhones, you know,

00:06:08.840 it, you know, just when we had to originally swipe them on. And I remember being like, wow,

00:06:14.060 that's so crazy. He learned that so fast. And of course, in hindsight, it's like,

00:06:17.580 of course he did. Cause it's really user-friendly. The idea is that even a toddler can do it. And

00:06:22.620 the problem is in exactly as you say, if you go back and you watch on YouTube, the original iPad

00:06:28.400 launch videos, nothing is mentioned about children, right? It's, it was a tool for adults. And I even

00:06:35.000 remember buying my husband one as a gift, you know, it didn't occur to us to get it for a kid,

00:06:39.000 but of course now we see the like padded cases and little toddlers and strollers walking around

00:06:45.180 with them and all of these different apps, games, platforms that are pitched to kids.

00:06:49.560 Or at restaurants, you go into a restaurant, you just see the kid with the iPad.

00:06:54.520 Yeah. Yeah. And you know, again, one of my big mottos is to replace judgment with curiosity,

00:07:00.380 because as I always joke, you know, parenting is the judgiest sport I've ever played. It is

00:07:05.360 so fraught with so many opinions about how do you sleep and feed and diaper and all of this stuff

00:07:11.080 from day one. And, you know, screen time is a hot topic for judgment. You know, we,

00:07:17.180 as parents feel a lot of guilt and shame about, I think our own use, I think about our kids use,

00:07:22.580 like we sort of like you and I, you know, we kind of came to the realization at some point,

00:07:26.120 like, Oh, well maybe this isn't the best thing for young children, but like, we're learning this as

00:07:31.720 we go. And, you know, I don't think blaming parents gets us anywhere. And I also think it

00:07:37.780 feeds into the narrative that big tech would like us to buy into, which is that it's parents' fault,

00:07:42.400 not their fault, right? It's a lot easier to say, well, this is a parenting problem. And

00:07:48.260 that's not my view. Okay. So screens, infancy, smartphone, you said like,

00:07:53.700 what's a third by the age eight? Yeah. Third by eight, we've got, you know, 71% by age 12,

00:08:00.060 which, you know, sort of middle school, we've got almost, you know, depending on again,

00:08:03.900 it's like probably 90 to 95% by high school. Yeah. And in your book, you do this really

00:08:08.400 interesting compare and contrast to show how screens have just overtaken all areas of our

00:08:13.640 kids' lives, not just their off time life, you know, their home life. You do this compare and

00:08:18.620 contrast between what screen use looked like for a Gen X person versus a Gen Z person. So walk us

00:08:24.460 through some of those differences. Yeah. You know, and, and I recognize too, that like there is a whole

00:08:29.280 another parenting generation, like the millennial generation that might not even recognize the

00:08:34.200 Gen X childhood in this, in this comparison, because I was writing about what I know. And,

00:08:39.380 you know, for a lot of us who were Gen Xers, it was growing up and having a lot of freedom and

00:08:44.520 outside play, you know, the sort of come home before the lights come on, you know, parents didn't know

00:08:49.980 where we were. We didn't wear bike helmets, you know, there's certainly were things that allowed

00:08:55.220 for a lot of risk-taking and adventuring. And, you know, I'm really grateful for that. I think

00:09:00.780 the other thing I see huge differences are with, you know, the way in which communication happened,

00:09:06.820 whether that was like, if I went to a friend's house, my parents might know I was there. They

00:09:10.940 might call the house line, but not, you know, it wouldn't contact me directly or even the way

00:09:17.040 schools communicated, right. You know, sending home like a newsletter from the teacher on a piece of

00:09:21.840 paper versus like a digital platform, right. So there's some pretty significant changes.

00:09:27.520 I would say that the single biggest difference, and, and part of this is I get a lot of responses

00:09:33.220 like, well, I played video games and I watched TV when I was a kid and I turned out fine.

00:09:37.940 Well, the single biggest difference is something called persuasive design, which I write about in

00:09:43.800 the book and I know is becoming a more mainstream term now. And really what it is, is the way in which

00:09:49.680 apps, platforms, you know, technology is designed to hook and hold our attention. And it is not at

00:09:55.720 all the same way of, you know, a Gen X childhood, right. Where you turn on a TV show and you have

00:10:01.260 to wait a week to watch the next episode, you know, like that's sort of a mind boggling concept now

00:10:07.320 for children is like, well, I just watched the whole series all in one day. You know, it's a very

00:10:12.760 on demand too. I don't even have to wait to start it at a certain time. And so that alone has changed

00:10:19.120 the way that we experience quote unquote television or screen time.

00:10:24.120 Yeah. I mean, I grew up, I was born in 82, so I'm like an older millennial, but yeah, television for

00:10:30.440 me, we had cable, but like, you know, there wasn't really much selection there. You know,

00:10:35.060 sometimes you say, well, I'm going to watch Yan Can Cook on the Discovery channel. That's all there is.

00:10:39.820 But now kids, they have like personalized feeds in YouTube and it's constantly, there's just all this

00:10:45.200 novelty. So there's no reason for them to go away from their, their device. When I was a kid,

00:10:50.440 I was like, well, this, this is really nothing on TV. I'm going to go outside. Yeah, exactly. And

00:10:55.000 you know, the other thing is too, if you grew up with siblings that like you had to negotiate what

00:10:58.940 to watch, you know, you fought over the remote control. Like, well, we watched your show last

00:11:02.560 time. Now it's my turn to pick. And like, you know, maybe our parents found that frustrating and

00:11:07.300 annoying, but my view is like, that's incredibly important skill building and relationship skills stuff

00:11:12.220 that's happening there, you know, negotiating and navigating conflict and getting to a point of

00:11:16.540 agreement. But when we hand kids headphones and individual devices, they're not doing any of that.

00:11:21.340 And, you know, again, I always say I'm not anti-tech, I'm tech intentional. So yeah, I do think

00:11:27.540 sometimes it's okay that a kid watches something and we, you know, I can give my two senses that like

00:11:34.180 in general, the bigger the screen, the better, you know, no headphones over headphones, public space

00:11:40.120 versus private space. Anytime we can do that and make those choices within choices, I think that's

00:11:45.580 better. But I'm also not an absolutist. I don't think it doesn't affect every kid the same way.

00:11:52.120 And I think that when we get too locked into rules about, you know, hard and fast, yes and no,

00:11:57.540 we lose a lot of the nuance. And, you know, if you're a parent, you know that it's all about nuance.

00:12:02.720 So what have been some of the consequences of the increase of screen use among young people?

00:12:07.540 Well, I mean, if, you know, if you've been following anything around screen time and youth

00:12:13.060 and social media stuff, the Surgeon General's warning from last fall is about the dire state

00:12:19.020 of youth mental health. And I do recognize, you know, social media platforms are not the same

00:12:24.060 thing as like a smartphone, but that's the tool on which kids are accessing them. And, you know,

00:12:28.780 mental health isn't only affected by social media platforms. You know, what I see is kids being

00:12:33.420 driven to the technology to escape feelings of discomfort or struggle, whether that's in the

00:12:40.840 school environment or family communication or social media, you know. And so as a former teacher,

00:12:47.040 for example, what I saw as soon as we pivoted from, you know, I had the paper grade book to the

00:12:51.880 digital one and it really came through the teachers first, not the students in terms of access to

00:12:56.760 platforms. But my seventh grade students stopped coming to ask me for help. You know,

00:13:00.980 they didn't come and ask me why, what happened on my vocab test? You know, how do I study differently

00:13:04.900 to get a different grade? Or I need help on this essay. Instead, what happened is parents started

00:13:09.700 emailing me. Parents were refreshing the portal, like, why haven't you graded this? And so that drove

00:13:15.160 me to spend more time at the computer and then less time with my students. And, you know, my very

00:13:21.340 firm belief is that learning happens in the context of human relationships. It doesn't happen

00:13:27.780 because mom emailed about a vocab test. And that was 10 years ago. And what's happening now is kids

00:13:34.280 are texting their parents from school saying, I got a bad grade. And so all of this sort of snowball

00:13:40.140 effect has led us to a group of kids, youth, and not just teenagers, but even younger kids who are

00:13:47.080 just struggling, whether that's their confidence, their mental health, their skills. And that to me,

00:13:53.980 if I want to get a little meta here, no pun intended, is that is a threat to democracy.

00:14:00.040 You know, we are raising children who are not capable of thinking critically, of experiencing

00:14:07.240 a difference of opinion without seeing it or feeling it as a personal attack, you know, without the skills

00:14:14.160 to troubleshoot and problem solve that they really need to be a thriving adult. So I see this as a real

00:14:21.500 snowballing problem. You know, it's not just one thing, it's multiple things. And the pendulum

00:14:27.360 is sung pretty far. Yeah, I thought that was interesting. You have a section about the

00:14:31.060 displacement hypothesis. Yeah. You know, if you're on a screen, it's displacing time, you could have

00:14:37.640 spent working on a different skill. So if you're on a screen, you're not working on, you know,

00:14:41.960 learning how to play an instrument. Exactly. But also it displaces skills like, like you said there,

00:14:46.760 social interaction, how to handle conflict. Right. Because you can just hide behind the screen and

00:14:50.800 actually have to deal with the conflict. Right. Yeah. And again, it's, it's easy to dump this all

00:14:57.140 on screens. I think there's also been a big shift in parenting styles too. You know, you and I are

00:15:03.120 similar age and we were kind of raised in that helicopter parenting generation where, you know,

00:15:08.220 yeah, we had a pretty free childhood, but then there was a lot of sort of swooping in like,

00:15:12.080 oh, you forgot your lunch. Let me bring it to school, that kind of thing. And now what we're seeing

00:15:15.600 is this lawnmower snowplow parenting approach, which is I'm going to go ahead of my child,

00:15:21.680 mow away obstacles so they don't ever experience adversity. And I believe those intentions are good.

00:15:27.900 I really believe parents think they are being good and helpful and supportive. But the problem is we

00:15:34.380 actually need our children to have opportunities to experience some friction, some stress, some

00:15:41.000 conflict, because that's how they learn to cope with it. And the more we take away those experiences,

00:15:46.900 the less opportunities they have to practice that. And I think screens contribute to that in that they

00:15:52.440 provide an escape that we can go to it and watch a video instead of facing a social conflict, you know,

00:16:00.680 head on that we might've in our childhoods had to deal with.

00:16:03.840 Well, you know, going on kind of continuing with that theme, like I'm sure a lot of parents

00:16:08.100 who give their kids iPads and smartphones, they cognitively understand like, okay, I know this

00:16:13.820 is probably not good for my kid. Right. They've read the research, they've seen the news articles,

00:16:18.600 but they still do it anyway. When you've talked to people who come to you for help, what do they tell

00:16:23.800 you? Like, what are the reasons why they give their kids devices, even though they know,

00:16:28.100 like they understand, like, this is probably not the best thing for my kid.

00:16:31.560 Right. Yeah. And again, I have a lot of empathy for parents because I think the main reason,

00:16:37.420 I think a lot of the reasons I hear, and again, it's like, we know this isn't good. We know what

00:16:42.380 the data say, but a lot of it is fear. And there are sort of several layers to that. I think there

00:16:48.280 is fear about the real world, like what's safe and what's not safe. I think there's a lot of fear

00:16:55.040 about our child being excluded or left out if they don't have, you know, a phone or a social media

00:17:01.780 platform. And I think there's, you know, to be really honest, I think there's a lot of parental

00:17:06.960 fear about school violence, which is awful. I wish it weren't something that this country had to

00:17:13.460 deal with. But what I see for parents is that we as parents are often hijacked ourselves by clickbait

00:17:23.060 news headlines, by sensational social media stories, because that's how the algorithm works. You know,

00:17:29.300 certainly once you watch one, you're going to get fed a lot more, but they're not representations of

00:17:33.620 reality. They are often extremely rare circumstances that are not truly dangerous for the majority of

00:17:41.280 children. And this is a hard thing for parents to hear, but I think we are too often focusing on the

00:17:47.640 scary and not the dangerous. And so what I really try to help parents think about is, you know, I think

00:17:55.420 I'm making my kids safe by giving them a phone, you know, or preventing them from experiencing

00:17:59.960 exclusion, for example. But really when we hand over unlimited access to the internet, the danger

00:18:05.860 is in the device. And certainly the younger we hand them out and with the less, you know, skills in

00:18:12.080 place to cope with it, that's dangerous. And what's really interesting is that Pew Research found that the

00:18:18.880 top three parental fears in America are youth mental health, bullying, and kidnapping. And one of the

00:18:24.960 reasons I hear parents give phones out earlier and earlier is this fear of kidnapping, which is this

00:18:29.640 idea of scary versus dangerous, right? Like kidnapping is scary, but it is not dangerous from a statistical

00:18:37.260 perspective. And somebody actually went and did the math and they found that if you wanted your child

00:18:41.740 to be kidnapped, obviously no one does, you would have to leave them outside every day for 750,000 years

00:18:48.380 to be guaranteed of being kidnapped. And that's a pretty low statistical chance. And yet when we give

00:18:56.800 our children phones or social media access, we make those top two parental fears so much worse,

00:19:03.100 the bullying and the youth mental health. And so it's this very paradoxical choice that parents are

00:19:08.900 making. And I understand the instinct, but we need to come from a place of reason rather than fear.

00:19:17.160 And I realize how hard that is to ask parents.

00:19:20.320 Yeah. We've had Lenore Skenazy on the podcast.

00:19:22.280 Oh, I love her.

00:19:23.080 Yeah. Talking about free range kids. And she talked about, yeah, your chances of your kid

00:19:26.340 getting kidnapped are just...

00:19:28.200 It's nil.

00:19:29.000 It's nil pretty much. But yeah, I thought it was interesting. We're trying to make our kids

00:19:31.940 safer, but in the process, we're actually putting them more in danger of bullying and the mental health

00:19:37.840 stuff. When parents realize their kids have a problem with screen use, how do they typically go about

00:19:44.400 remedying the situation?

00:19:47.000 Yeah. I get a lot of parents who want me to help them fix their kids. And the way I phrase it is

00:19:53.280 that this is not a kid problem. It's an adult problem that's impacting children. And a lot of

00:19:59.160 the work I do with parents is to start by actually looking at our own use of screens. And again, I

00:20:03.700 replace judgment with curiosity, right? Like this is come as you are. We've all made mistakes.

00:20:08.660 We all are learning. And then because we know better now, we can do better. And a lot of it

00:20:13.860 has to do with how do we as adults engage with digital tech around our children? Because what

00:20:19.460 they see is what they're going to do. And so that's usually a starting point. But the other thing I

00:20:24.360 also hear is that parents really want to know what parental controls that they can put on their

00:20:29.740 devices or their kids' devices to help them decrease screen time. And the problem I have with that

00:20:34.800 is it, you know, it's actually asking the wrong question. I think rather than worrying about total

00:20:40.420 number of hours and the way in which we monitor them, what I would rather happen and I think is a

00:20:47.880 far more effective way to help manage screen time is two things. One, do you know what your child is

00:20:54.320 actually doing online? Like not just because you've been watching on an app, but because you sat with

00:21:00.320 them, because you've asked them questions about it, all of that. And the second one is, do you

00:21:04.500 have a strong relationship with your child? Because that is actually the best predictor of future

00:21:10.020 mental health for them. It's not that you've managed to block XYZ websites or whatever. And

00:21:16.640 you know, the end of the day too, every parent who comes to me has a story of how my kid found the

00:21:23.040 workaround. My kid disabled the parental controls. I thought I had it all locked down. And so I call it

00:21:28.460 digital whack-a-mole, right? Because you think you've got it here, but then the kid finds it

00:21:33.480 there. And it sort of lulls parents into this false sense of security and it is not long-term

00:21:41.200 effective. Now, that being said, it takes a lot more work to work on that relationship piece and

00:21:47.640 the communication piece than it is to just download an app. And that's hard. Not all parents are able

00:21:53.420 or willing to go there yet. And so I recognize it's not easy, but it matters.

00:21:58.260 Yeah. The parental controls, I've experimented with various ones. They're easy to work around,

00:22:03.360 but also even if you get them to work, they're not that great because for one, you can't filter

00:22:09.200 content within an app, right? So you can block websites. You can say, okay, I'm going to block

00:22:14.180 all porn websites or drug websites, whatever. It can do that, but you can't filter the content in the

00:22:19.680 Instagram app or the Snapchat app. And so your kids could be looking at stuff or even the YouTube,

00:22:24.680 it's hard to do parental controls on YouTube. So yeah, they don't... And then the other problem

00:22:30.840 I've had with them before is that sometimes they work too well. And I remember my son, he was trying

00:22:35.840 to access ESPN.com to look at the basketball scores. And it's like, I can't get to... Dad,

00:22:42.320 I can't... It says it's blocked because it's not appropriate. And I'm like, okay.

00:22:45.940 Right.

00:22:46.280 So it's more of a hassle.

00:22:48.020 It is. And look, I'm always... There are some families for whom it works and they find it's a great

00:22:53.420 tool. That's fine. I'm not suggesting you toss it all to the curb, but I also really encourage if

00:22:59.220 you have them and you think they're working to make sure because the ways in which kids get around

00:23:04.220 them, to your point, they don't monitor the in-app content. But even that, for example,

00:23:08.080 parents are often surprised that Pinterest is a problematic app because they think of it as a

00:23:13.360 crafting place, right? That's what we knew it as. But that's where kids are watching TikTok because

00:23:18.480 they can see TikTok videos through Pinterest. So kids are way... They're always one step ahead of us on

00:23:22.620 that. And that is why that relationship piece is so important. We don't want to drive kids

00:23:27.260 further underground. We don't want to make kids sneaky about it because it isn't a question of if

00:23:33.780 they see inappropriate content or scary content or something they don't understand. It's a question

00:23:38.380 of when. And what we need to do as parents is be the adult that they come to when that happens.

00:23:45.420 And if what we've done previously is the digital whack-a-mole or the, you know, you get in big trouble,

00:23:50.320 they're not going to come to you. And that's where we get into the really dangerous outcomes

00:23:55.740 is that they go to the internet to find out more information, which is almost never a good idea,

00:24:00.640 right? Or they blame themselves and it takes a serious toll on their mental health. You know,

00:24:05.540 the true antidote to addiction is connection. It is this relationship piece. And it isn't easy. And it's

00:24:13.680 also our job as parents to look at our own screen addiction or tendencies and look at like,

00:24:19.260 well, what could I be doing differently? You know, what's a way that I can help my kid by helping

00:24:23.360 myself? That's a starting point, I would argue. We're going to take a quick break for your words

00:24:28.080 from our sponsors. And now back to the show. Yeah, I think that's an important point that you

00:24:35.520 got to model what appropriate or good digital behavior looks like in your own life because your

00:24:40.960 kids are going to follow what you do. And you have this great advice for parents. If they have a

00:24:46.000 problem with their screen use, they're constantly checking their phone or whatever, is to live your

00:24:50.060 digital life out loud. What does that mean? And how can that help? Yeah. So a colleague of mine

00:24:56.780 many years ago used this as a phrase to help kids build executive function skills. And she said,

00:25:02.320 living your life out loud. And I had this aha moment, which was like, oh my gosh, this is what

00:25:06.480 we should be doing with digital tech. And so living your life out loud is actually one of my number

00:25:10.880 one tips to give parents. It's like, you can start it today. It's free. It's easy. You don't need any

00:25:15.280 special skills. And all it is, is narrating what you do as you do it around your technology. So it

00:25:21.400 might be, I'm reaching for my phone. I'm going to check and see what time soccer practice starts.

00:25:25.440 And then I'm going to text your friend's mom and see if she can drive you home. Like it's a play by

00:25:29.660 play, right? To use a sports metaphor. And is it annoying? Yes. Is it boring? Yes. Will your kids roll

00:25:36.800 their eyes and go, why are you telling me all this out loud? Yes. And does that matter? Yes.

00:25:41.540 Because it means they're listening. You are showing how you are using this as a tool. I always say that

00:25:46.860 a smartphone isn't a switchblade. It's a Swiss army knife. You know, it's a multi-tool and kids

00:25:52.080 need us to teach them that it is a thing that does more than one, you know, platform, one communication

00:25:58.400 tool, one anything and how we use it really matters. And the added benefit is we're modeling tech use,

00:26:05.100 but we're also teaching some of that executive function, right? So skills like organizing and

00:26:09.740 planning and communicating. Like we can say, oh, you know, I'm using this to plan my schedule for

00:26:14.580 the week and this is how it looks. This is all skill stuff kids need. And we can add in that

00:26:20.920 emotional vocabulary too. We can start to talk about like, oh my gosh, you know, I I'm standing in the

00:26:25.980 grocery line and I'm bored and I realized I'm pulling out my phone to look at it and I could be

00:26:30.520 talking to you or it doesn't make me feel better to scroll through someone else's Instagram

00:26:34.700 pictures. You know, it just makes me feel like my life is boring. And by starting to articulate the

00:26:39.160 way it impacts us, our kids can see that it will also be impactful for them. And, you know, again,

00:26:45.220 I always just say when the kids roll their eyes, it's good because it means they're listening.

00:26:49.000 And especially for those teens and tweens, that's developmentally normal. They're going to roll

00:26:53.000 their eyes at you and that's okay. Okay. So live your digital life out loud. I really like that tip

00:26:57.540 because it just, what I like about it too, it just adds more friction into your digital use.

00:27:01.500 So you'll be less likely to, to pull out the phone. You're like, well, I don't want it to like

00:27:05.520 narrate what I'm doing to my kids. I'll just maybe just leave my phone in my pocket.

00:27:09.360 Exactly. And you start to notice when you do it, how many other people don't do it. My husband said

00:27:13.700 he was doing it, you know, with us at home all the time. And then he'd go to work and he's like,

00:27:17.040 why is no one saying this? You know, it's so weird. It feels so rude, but we've sort of slipped

00:27:21.520 into this habit. And I would love to see that as a strategy that spreads far and wide.

00:27:26.240 Right. And then the other piece of that is instead of relying on parental controls completely,

00:27:30.640 just talk to your kids, like talk to them about their digital life. Like ask them,

00:27:34.940 what have you been checking out on YouTube? What are you watching? And you don't have to do

00:27:37.920 to accusatory, like, ah, you're probably looking at something you're not supposed to be looking at.

00:27:41.820 Just like, Hey, no, tell me who are the people you follow on YouTube?

00:27:45.620 Yeah. And why do you like that person? What makes their videos interesting to you? And

00:27:50.420 it is very likely your kids are going to say, well, I don't know, you know,

00:27:54.240 and that's where we just have to lean on them a little bit. And to think of this as actually,

00:27:58.300 it's a skill building opportunity for them to articulate their opinion and why they like

00:28:03.080 something is a skill. And it's okay if you don't agree with it. You know, I think a lot of the

00:28:08.820 judgment we feel about kids' screen time is very apparent to kids. I think it makes them react more

00:28:14.600 defensively. So, you know, I always talk about going backward to go forward, right? This idea that

00:28:19.660 like, okay, maybe you hate Minecraft and you don't want to hear any more about Minecraft today,

00:28:24.280 but if you can engage your child on something they're interested in, that's a connection building

00:28:29.880 moment, right? You know, you might be like, as we're turning this off, you know, would you tell

00:28:34.120 me like about the world you built or what you want to do tomorrow? Or, you know, who are you working

00:28:38.920 with on this world? Like any sort of question, whether or not you really want to know the details,

00:28:43.720 you're showing your kid you care about something they're interested in,

00:28:46.920 and that's solidifying your relationship. And so then the idea would be for something

00:28:51.980 non-digital, you can build on that, right? Like that's where I think we go so quickly to

00:28:57.960 defensiveness and accusatory sort of, I can't believe you're addicted to your phone and why

00:29:02.620 don't you turn that thing off? And you know, the kids know, the kids know we don't like it. So

00:29:06.840 that's hard. Yeah. So we, our family, we do use parental, the Apple parental controls

00:29:12.580 because our kids have their own iPad for games and whatever. But the one I think is really useful

00:29:17.300 is they have to have ask permission before they download an app. And I think that's really handy

00:29:21.640 because okay, first it prevents them from opening up accounts on social media platforms without us

00:29:25.660 knowing about it. But also the prompt, you know, I get on my phone, like, Hey, Gus wants to download

00:29:30.480 this app. I can have a conversation like, why, what's up with this? Like, why are you wanting to do

00:29:34.180 this? So it's a, it's a conversation starter. That's great. Yeah. I love that too. And we don't use

00:29:39.660 those controls, but we have that rule. And you know, even again, anecdotally, my daughter last

00:29:43.680 week, I saw a screen, she, she uses a family iPad and we share my phone, which is its own creative

00:29:50.220 solution. She's 13 now. So it's been interesting. She also has access to a light phone, which is one

00:29:56.240 of the minimalist options for when she does go out and wants to call about pickup, but sharing a phone

00:30:02.440 with a 13 year old is fascinating. That's a whole different topic. But one of the things that it has

00:30:07.540 allowed us to do is just have these ongoing conversations. And I noticed a screenshot the

00:30:12.000 other day of a, what looked like an AI chat bot kind of an app. And I was like, huh, don't remember

00:30:17.660 being asked about that one, you know? And so it was an opportunity to revisit the expectation that

00:30:23.580 if you want to download something, you have to ask us about it. And just simply downloading it

00:30:28.160 without asking doesn't work. And because I can see, you know, I have it on my phone, but also I can

00:30:33.020 look at the iPad. I was like, this doesn't look like it's in alignment with what we've talked

00:30:37.180 about. And she immediately goes, oh yeah. Okay. I'll delete it. And like, you know, I'm sure there

00:30:43.880 are things I'm missing again. Like I want to put as much as I am the screen time consultant. I don't

00:30:48.820 want parents to think I don't fight with my own kids about screen time. Sometimes I do, but what I

00:30:54.860 care a lot more about than the, like, are they following my rule is are they learning something

00:31:01.220 from this interaction? And what is it I want them to take away from it? Because that's what's setting

00:31:06.680 them up for those future skills. And, you know, she did a lot of eye rolling and was like annoyed

00:31:11.920 at me for talking to her about it. But then I immediately saw a text that she sent to her

00:31:16.640 friends that was like, I have to delete this. My mom made a really good point. It's not good for

00:31:19.780 kids. And it was like, you know, what she said and what she did were two different things, but that's

00:31:24.840 literally what parenting teens and tweens is like. Right. And so we've got to also give them more credit

00:31:30.440 that just because, you know, the gesture I usually give is like, they're both flipping us off and rolling

00:31:35.140 their eyes while beckoning for us to come closer and help them. Right. It's such a contradictory,

00:31:40.940 conflicting message. And we have to ignore that middle finger. We have to pay attention

00:31:45.720 to the bid for connection because that's what they need more than ever, even in spite of what

00:31:51.020 they're saying and doing. And besides just checking in regularly on your kid's digital life, like

00:31:55.760 you're doing this out of curiosity, not judgment. You also talk about just having conversations about how

00:32:00.260 technology lines up with your family's principles or values on an ongoing basis. And you can even

00:32:06.860 talk about it from your own experience. Like, oh, you know, I was bored and I, like you said earlier,

00:32:11.140 I'm bored and I wanted to check the screen. Like, well, I don't want to be the kind of person who has

00:32:15.660 to like suck on a digital binky anytime I'm bored or upset. Yeah, exactly. And you think your kids

00:32:22.120 aren't listening, but they are. They might be rolling their eyes when you talk about it, but they're

00:32:25.740 absorbing it. Exactly. That's exactly it. And, you know, I think having the conversations just

00:32:31.800 starts to sort of plant those seeds. Right. And so, you know, it can be like even a couple of days

00:32:37.880 ago at dinner, we were just chatting about, I was sharing some information a parent shared with me

00:32:42.580 about her teenager having up to 13 hours on his phone a day. Right. You know, that's definitely on

00:32:47.640 the high end. And even my 16 year old son who, you know, I see him pick up his phone more than I

00:32:53.340 would want sometimes. And boy, boy, do we talk about it? But even he was like, huh, that's a lot,

00:32:59.180 you know, and inside I'm like cheering and excited, like, oh my gosh, he gets it. But I was like, yeah,

00:33:04.500 yeah, it is a lot, you know? And it's so, it's like, they'll come back to us, you know, and it may

00:33:09.880 take five, six, seven, 20 conversations before it clicks in. But that again is normal brain development.

00:33:16.080 It's not, they're not always going to get at that first, second or third conversation. And that's okay.

00:33:20.060 That's why we keep trying. Kind of brass tacks here. When do you recommend parents introduce

00:33:24.500 screens to their kids? So there's two different ways you can introduce screens here. Like the first

00:33:28.760 one I think most kids get introduced to early is like an iPad or a tablet of some sort.

00:33:33.520 Yeah. Or a parent phone. Or a parent phone. Like any advice on how to introduce that in a way that

00:33:38.480 it's, you know, more conducive to well-being? Yeah. Yeah. And again, my tech intentional approach

00:33:44.200 is all about the intentionality of introducing it. So my TLDR is later is better, less is more

00:33:51.720 relationships and skills first. And so later is better. And I realize that's not helpful because,

00:33:59.080 you know, parents often want, well, like how many years old, but the reality is it depends so much

00:34:05.020 on each child and the temperament and the other, you know, to what we were talking about earlier about

00:34:08.900 displacement. Like what are the other things that are happening in this child's life and your family

00:34:12.560 life? So I worry sometimes when we get too hard and fast about age, you know, number age and number

00:34:20.240 of hours that if you've not met that or you've gone way past that, you feel like you've failed.

00:34:25.960 And my goal is to help parents say, oh, I guess I missed that and I want something different. So how

00:34:32.280 can I get there without feeling like I've already failed? And, you know, you start where you are.

00:34:38.340 And I know parents who have regretted, I mean, I'll say this, like no parent has ever said to me,

00:34:45.160 I wish I gave my kid a phone sooner or I wish I gave them social media access earlier. Never.

00:34:51.160 It is a hundred percent of the time the opposite. And so if that message can get to the parents of

00:34:56.340 younger kids, that's a powerful thing to take with you, right? Like you're, they're going to be

00:35:00.940 mad at you if you delay, but the problems that come with giving it too much too soon

00:35:05.960 are much more challenging than them just being mad at you for saying no. And that being said,

00:35:12.540 just saying no isn't enough either, because it's one thing to, here's a Seinfeld reference. You know,

00:35:17.900 you know how to take the reservation, but not hold the reservation is like, you can say no and you can

00:35:24.060 have the rule and kids are going to find it anyway, whether it's on their school computer or their

00:35:28.140 friend's phone. And so that's again, where that relationship piece has to come into play. And a

00:35:33.040 lot of this is rooted in trust. And it's hard when we as adults and parents feel distrusting of the

00:35:39.060 world. We're, you know, worried about a lot of different things, but distrust breeds more distrust.

00:35:45.160 And so it is really important that that relationship piece is focused on how do I help my child? How do I

00:35:52.140 teach them about, you know, what it means to honor your word and respect your values and your

00:35:57.040 boundaries? And a lot of that's going to start with how we model them.

00:35:59.820 What about smartphones? What's a good age for parents to get their kids the first smartphone?

00:36:04.420 Again, later is better, less is more relationships and skills first. And, you know, I would say, I

00:36:09.160 mean, and there's been a lot of press about Jonathan Haidt's book, The Anxious Generation, and his work is

00:36:13.800 wonderful. And I quote him in my book. His advice, again, is like, you know, delaying till high school. And

00:36:19.180 again, I think that's great. I think the challenge is parents feel like, well, my kid's the only one. And it is

00:36:25.140 true. I mean, as we talked about in the beginning, the older the kid, the more kids have them.

00:36:29.120 And so it does take collective action here. And the metaphor I use is a school of fish in the ocean,

00:36:35.920 you know, how do you get it to change direction? Well, one fish peels away, but the other fish aren't

00:36:41.200 going to follow until a second and a third fish come to. And so what I talk about is like, I need more

00:36:46.500 first fish parents out there, you know, and I need also some second and third fish parents, because

00:36:51.260 when we get those parents there who are starting to say no or delay or talk about it in the context

00:36:56.960 of values, then it will make it easier for the rest of the group to follow. And, you know, I see my

00:37:02.700 work very much as a first fish and it's hard. It can be lonely, but I really believe it's the

00:37:09.080 best thing for kids. You know, I, we are fighting when we delay our children's access or delay or

00:37:16.420 minimize it or limit it. We are fighting for their future mental, cognitive, and emotional health.

00:37:21.660 I firmly believe that. So I believe it matters. And the later we can do that, the better in the

00:37:27.660 context of a strong relationship with our children. Yeah. We're waiting till high school to get our

00:37:32.980 kids a smartphone. And something that's helped is like my, you know, especially my son, he's the

00:37:37.040 eighth grade. So he'll be in high school soon, but his best friend, like we're really good friends

00:37:41.320 with his best friend's parents. And we've kind of made a compact, like none of us are getting a

00:37:45.280 smartphone and that's helped out. Great. Cause now they just communicate with each other via our

00:37:49.740 phones. Yeah, that's wonderful. And that makes a huge difference. If you can find one other parent

00:37:54.000 to partner with on it, you know, and again, like we use, my daughter's going into seventh grade,

00:37:58.220 we use the light phone. So, you know, she can text her friends, she can text us, but she has access at

00:38:03.420 home on the iPad and she uses my phone number. And so that's a solution that's worked for us. One thing

00:38:09.120 that has made that much easier is the fact that our school, her school has a phone free policy and has had

00:38:14.220 one for six or seven years, which is pretty, you know, tip of the spear in terms of, you know,

00:38:19.660 that's not been the norm. And, you know, schools are now starting to look at that as an option and

00:38:24.080 it's great, but that makes my parenting job so much easier. The fact that she isn't allowed to

00:38:30.200 have a phone at school. And so it doesn't matter if she doesn't have a smartphone yet, she's just not

00:38:34.020 allowed to have a phone at school. So, you know, that's a, another recommendation I would make is to

00:38:38.300 really encourage your child's school to consider a school-wide policy because it does help the parents.

00:38:44.220 A lot on that side of things. Have you had issues with parents where they're, they say, well,

00:38:48.620 I had to give, I had to give my kid a smartphone because all their school assignments are managed

00:38:53.140 with a smartphone. Is that an issue? Yeah. So I get really mad about, about this one because,

00:38:59.100 you know, first of all, I, a school should never require a child to use a personal device for school

00:39:04.200 assignments, but they do all the time. And the bigger issue that I'm seeing now, you know,

00:39:09.440 is of course the school issued devices, which present a whole different problem,

00:39:12.640 problem. But there's a lot of issues with asking kids to rely on their own personal phones for

00:39:18.080 school, right? We can talk about equity. We can talk about privacy, access, distraction, safety.

00:39:23.780 What happens if your classmate drops and breaks your phone? Who's responsible? So yes, is the short

00:39:30.160 answer. It's a huge problem. The bigger issue, you know, the thing that I hear more from parents is

00:39:34.480 like, there's a lot of for the, but not for me kind of thinking. Like they want other parents to not

00:39:41.260 give their kids phones, but they have a reason why their kid needs a phone. And, you know, that's a,

00:39:46.600 that's a, a touchy one because I do think there are some exceptions in the sense of like a medical

00:39:52.900 diagnosis or a severe learning disability where that is a required tool. Those are the exceptions,

00:39:58.580 but I don't think I feel like giving a kid a phone because they have anxiety is a good reason to give a

00:40:05.920 child a phone. Right. And so there's a lot of that kind of thinking. And I need some parents to start

00:40:11.800 realizing that it has to be true for all or most kids in order for things to change. And that's hard.

00:40:18.500 Yeah. I heard you in another interview say that a good age to get your kid a smartphone is when you're,

00:40:26.520 yeah, what was it?

00:40:27.740 Yeah. When you're ready for them to see porn. Yeah.

00:40:30.380 Yeah. And that's not my line, but it's something that's in our, you know, in our world that we hear

00:40:35.680 that a lot, but it's true. And most parents kind of go, but if you're not ready to talk about porn,

00:40:40.640 they're not ready to have access to the internet. Like that's just, it's just everywhere. And it's

00:40:44.840 not because kids are seeking it out. I mean, a few kids probably are, but like, it's cause it's

00:40:49.300 everywhere. It's everywhere.

00:40:51.000 No. Yeah. I, so a couple of years ago, I'm the leader of our youth group at church,

00:40:56.000 like the boys. And we had a thing on porn use and I asked them like, Hey, you know,

00:41:02.560 how do you guys get porn these days? Like how are kids doing it? And they said, people just send it

00:41:06.220 to you. Like, I've got friends who'll just like, they'll just message it to me. I didn't ask for it.

00:41:09.940 I wasn't looking for it. I'm on Snapchat and someone will just send it to me. And I asked,

00:41:14.120 what do you do about that? He's like, I just, I just had to delete it and tell them not to do that

00:41:18.160 anymore. And like when I was a kid, like that never happened. Like you had to go look for it.

00:41:22.580 If you wanted to see it. Yeah. Yeah. It was like paper form and hard to get. And yeah, I mean,

00:41:27.900 again, that's, it's like, it is pernicious. It's algorithmically driven and, you know,

00:41:33.720 with bots and all of that stuff. And to your point earlier about not monitoring in-app content,

00:41:38.700 you know, kids can get DMS from, you know, there's a lot of the like phishing kind of scandal

00:41:42.760 things that go on, you know, where it's, it looks like a young, hot college girl sending a selfie and

00:41:47.980 being like, Oh, you're cute. Will you send me some inappropriate pictures? Right. And you know,

00:41:51.920 a teenage boy is going to feel flattered by that. And you know, it can lead to all kinds of

00:41:56.260 bad outcomes. But I think again, knowing that that's going to happen, we have to talk to our

00:42:01.940 kids about what to do. We have to say like, when that happens, you need to block and delete or

00:42:07.420 screenshot it. Sometimes that's actually important for law enforcement, but like,

00:42:11.040 you need to come and let me know immediately. I will never be mad at you for this. Like,

00:42:14.700 this is a really important parent message to get through. And I, you know, we may not know what to do

00:42:19.740 right away and that's okay too. We can say, I don't know what to do and I need to figure out

00:42:23.920 an answer, but thank you for telling me this is the day and age we live in. And it's just got to

00:42:30.620 be a part of those conversations. And I mean, as young as four or five and six, and that's hard

00:42:34.640 for some parents to think about, but you obviously don't need to use language of a teenager, but you

00:42:39.040 can say there's pictures on here that aren't for kids. There are videos that are made for grownups.

00:42:43.300 Sometimes kids find them. I need you to tell me when you see something you don't understand,

00:42:46.780 I'll never be mad at you. So when, you know, a compromise that some parents make when it comes

00:42:51.100 to smartphones, say they have a kid that's in middle school or elementary school, they're like,

00:42:54.380 well, I'm not going to get my kid a smartphone, but I'll get them a smart watch. You're not a big

00:42:58.840 fan of this compromise. Why is that? Well, because first of all, they're on their body, right? So at

00:43:04.120 least a phone in theory, you could leave in a backpack or a locker all day, but like a watch is on your

00:43:08.480 body. So it's constantly available. If you've ever watched a child under 10, they're fidgety and

00:43:13.540 distracted. They're just, it's tappable, right? There's something they can do with it. Whether

00:43:16.760 they're even doing an app or not. I also think that parents, this is again, going back to that

00:43:23.180 parent anxiety piece, like we need to stop texting our children at school. And I mean this from

00:43:28.520 kindergarten through college, because I got an email from our daughter's K-5 principal two years

00:43:35.200 ago that was like, parents, please turn off watches and phones and leave them in backpacks all day

00:43:41.020 because kids' watches are going off all day long and disrupting the learning. And so again,

00:43:46.440 this is going to be on us as parents to do the hard thing, which is accept we cannot talk to or

00:43:52.240 hear from our children all day long. It's to trust that the teachers in the school are going to

00:43:57.580 communicate with us if there's a problem. And that really, again, is a shift for us as parents to move

00:44:04.200 out of that anxiety. And I know that parents want to keep tabs on their kids. There's a lot of,

00:44:10.460 you know, like, well, I want to track them. I want to know where they are. I want to make sure they

00:44:13.940 get to someone's house. That is living in the fear. That is living in the world of the whole

00:44:19.080 world is dangerous. And really what I'm thinking is it's just scary. And I know intentions are good,

00:44:25.640 but parents have to remember that there are benefits to our children having that independence

00:44:30.100 and freedom from surveillance and supervision from us constantly. It's their chance to go out in the

00:44:36.640 world and practice some pretty critical skills with, you know, in a school environment with an adult

00:44:41.900 who's trained to do that. I know it's not a perfect scenario. I know schools are,

00:44:46.880 you know, all over the place, but I think we've really misjudged our need to constantly surveil

00:44:55.380 them. And that, you know, what we were just talking about earlier about distrust, you know,

00:44:58.640 surveillance breeds distrust. And if you go back again to that Gen X millennial childhoods,

00:45:04.560 can you imagine when you were in high school, if your parents like literally could track you

00:45:08.240 wherever you went, it sends such a wrong message in my mind about what is healthy for kids and

00:45:14.200 development and independence, which of course directly correlates to that mental health piece.

00:45:18.860 And, you know, feeling surveilled and watched makes us think we're less capable. And, you know,

00:45:24.640 kids think they're less capable so they don't take risks. They don't put themselves out there and

00:45:29.140 that makes their mental health worse. So it's this vicious cycle. And that was a long answer to

00:45:33.340 whether or not you should get your kid a smartwatch. But if really what you want is a

00:45:36.560 communication tool, get them a flip phone or an old, you know, one of those minimalist phones

00:45:41.620 that don't have all of those capabilities that they can physically leave in a locker or a backpack.

00:45:46.460 That's where I am on that one. Yeah. I think you make an important point. Privacy is where we

00:45:50.740 develop a self. Exactly. And so if you're constantly being monitored, it's hard to develop

00:45:54.960 your individuality or just your self-concept. And I do like the idea if you want to stay connected

00:46:01.800 with your kids, just give them the light phone or the flip phone.

00:46:06.340 Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, it is true that nothing is private on the internet. You know,

00:46:11.240 I get a lot of parents like, well, should I read my kid's texts? Should I, the reality is you should

00:46:15.600 assume that anything that is being put on a digital platform device tool is visible to everybody in the

00:46:21.600 world. And we have to teach our kids that because it's hard to understand that, especially for a young

00:46:26.740 child, but I don't think snooping is ever a good way. You know, that's, again, we run into sort of

00:46:32.540 that trust and mistrust, but I think communicating constantly about like, Hey, I want you to know

00:46:37.840 that occasionally I will check your phone. And I'm just, you know, again, making it part of the

00:46:42.120 conversation. Nothing is private on the internet. You know, if you have a conflict with a friend,

00:46:46.240 it's always better to pick up the phone and call, you know, no teenager does that anymore. I know

00:46:49.960 that, but we want them to know that there are some unsafe things about putting things in writing

00:46:55.400 on a device and that it's just a safety thing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's been a great conversation.

00:47:01.140 Is there one thing that people can start doing today and creating a more tech intentional family?

00:47:06.520 Because like you said, you're not anti-tech. I think that your husband works for a tech company,

00:47:10.340 correct? Yes. Full disclosure. Yeah. But you're all about being tech intentional. So like,

00:47:14.700 what's one thing that parents can start doing today to do that? Yeah. Great question. Well,

00:47:18.840 number one, replace judgment with curiosity and know that this is ridiculously hard and you're not

00:47:23.780 alone. You know, again, I get so many calls and emails. It's like, parents are really feeling

00:47:28.160 overwhelmed by this. The second thing is the live your life out loud piece. You know,

00:47:32.440 you don't need to change anything. In fact, I don't want you to go home and change everything,

00:47:36.260 you know, just from listening to this one conversation. I want you to think about

00:47:39.500 what would it look like to live my life out loud around how I use screens around my family and just

00:47:45.260 start there. See what happens. See what kids say. See what your partner says. You know,

00:47:49.340 like, what do you notice about your own screen use? And if you want a really tangible thing that

00:47:54.400 you can do today is to get your phone out of your bedroom. Because I know and I survey school groups

00:48:00.880 when I go and talk to parents and it's something like 95% of parents admit to keeping their phone in

00:48:05.940 their room at night. And I know that parents are going to say, well, what about an emergency?

00:48:10.280 To which I say, just put it in the hallway, leave the ringer on and put it in the hallway,

00:48:14.240 but like outside your bedroom, because it's a lot easier to say no to your 16 year old having a phone

00:48:20.500 in the room at night, which they shouldn't have. Then, you know, if you have also put your room,

00:48:25.600 your phone out of the room at night. So that's one of those just sort of simple, easy to start

00:48:30.200 being that role model saying I've learned something new. This is going to help me sleep better. It's

00:48:34.720 going to decrease my doom scrolling before bed. You know, I'm going to do that. And people always say

00:48:39.920 it's my alarm clock and alarm clocks are way cheaper than smartphones.

00:48:43.700 Oh, for sure. Well, Emily, where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:48:48.040 Yeah. So my website is thescreentimeconsultant.com. I have a section about my book. I actually just

00:48:54.880 also added a toolkit for parents who are interested in looking at an alternative pathway for the screens

00:49:00.700 and schools part, you know, opting out of some of that ed tech. So that's a downloadable free

00:49:05.340 resource. And I would love it if anyone's interested in signing up for my newsletter, I send

00:49:09.480 weekly essays about parenting and screen time and education and, you know, life in the, you know,

00:49:15.960 the digital fast lane that we're all living in. And I find, I get a lot of good feedback about those.

00:49:21.060 So I don't spam people or sell their email addresses either.

00:49:24.140 Fantastic. Well, Emily Cherkin, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:49:26.520 Yes. Thank you so much for having me, Brett.

00:49:29.900 My guest here is Emily Cherkin. She's the author of the book, The Screen Time Solution. It's available

00:49:33.860 on amazon.com. You can find more information about her work at her website,

00:49:37.080 thescreentimeconsultant.com. Also check out our show notes at aom.is

00:49:41.340 slash screen time. We find links to resources. We delve deeper into this topic.

00:49:52.380 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. Make sure to check out our website

00:49:56.160 at artofmanliness.com where you find our podcast archives. And while you're there,

00:49:59.560 sign up for our newsletter. We have a daily option and a weekly option. They're both free.

00:50:03.200 It's the best way to stay on top of what's going on at AOM. And if you haven't done so already,

00:50:07.100 I'd appreciate it if you take one minute to get us reading up the podcast or Spotify. It helps

00:50:10.060 out a lot. And if you've done that already, thank you. Please consider sharing the show with a friend

00:50:13.780 or family member who would think there's something out of it. As always, thank you for the continued

00:50:17.200 support. Until next time, it's Brett McKay. Remind you to listen to AOM podcast, but put what you've

00:50:21.540 heard into action.

The Art of Manliness - September 09, 2024

Becoming a Tech Intentional Family

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