The Art of Manliness - July 07, 2026


Beyond Midlife Myths: Why Middle Age Can Be Your Prime Time


Episode Stats


Length

56 minutes

Words per minute

183.01

Word count

10,408

Sentence count

645

Harmful content

Misogyny

1

sentences flagged

Toxicity

4

sentences flagged

Hate speech

12

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.560 Summer's winding down, and at our house, that means life is about to get a whole lot busier.
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00:01:05.840 So one project Kate and I are working on
00:01:07.540 before summer winds down
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00:02:19.960 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the AOM Podcast, which since 2008 has featured
00:02:24.800 conversations with the world's best authors, thinkers, and leaders that glean their edifying,
00:02:29.720 life-improving insights without the fluff and filler. The AOM podcast is just one part of the
00:02:34.140 mission to help individuals practice timeless virtues through thought, word, and deed. Also,
00:02:39.240 be sure to explore our articles in artofmanliness.com, read the deeper dives we do in our
00:02:43.120 sub-stack newsletter at dyingbreed.net, and turn our content into real-world action by joining the
00:02:47.840 Strenuous Life program at strenuouslife.com. Now on to the show.
00:02:54.800 Many of us grow up believing that midlife is when things start going downhill.
00:03:02.900 Your body's breaking down, your best work is behind you,
00:03:05.560 and you may fall into a full-blown existential crisis.
00:03:08.560 But a lot of what we think we know about midlife
00:03:10.280 turns out to be based more on pop culture than actual research.
00:03:13.360 My guest says the reality is much more encouraging.
00:03:15.800 Her name is Margie Lockman, and she's a professor of psychology,
00:03:18.680 the director of The Lifespan Lab at Brandeis University,
00:03:21.220 and the author of Primetime, A New Vision for Midlife.
00:03:24.620 Today on the show, Margie discusses what age range constitutes midlife,
00:03:27.900 and how it's not just a matter of chronological age,
00:03:30.040 and whether people really become less happy and experience a midlife crisis during these years.
00:03:34.400 She explains the surprising ways your mind continues to improve even as some abilities slow down,
00:03:38.540 and why this stage of life often represents a peak combination of creativity and judgment.
00:03:42.580 We also talk about the real challenges that come with midlife,
00:03:44.700 and how adopting the right mindset and habits can mitigate those downsides,
00:03:48.000 while helping you make the most of what Margie argues can truly be a sweet spot in life.
00:03:51.240 A time when you still have much of your physical and mental vitality, and it's coupled with
00:03:55.140 seasoned experience and wisdom.
00:03:57.300 After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash primetime.
00:04:12.520 All right, Margie Lachman, welcome to the show.
00:04:14.940 Thank you so much.
00:04:15.980 I'm really glad to be here.
00:04:17.140 So you are a professor of psychology who researches adult development with a focus on
00:04:22.080 midlife, you know, 40s to 60s. Well, actually, we're going to talk about what is midlife exactly.
00:04:27.680 How adults experience the world and themselves throughout their life. This is a surprisingly
00:04:32.420 new field of psychology. Why did psychologists who studied human development, why did they often
00:04:38.660 ignore adulthood and particularly midlife? Yes, that's really interesting. As a developmental
00:04:45.500 psychologists, we were mainly focused on infancy and early childhood and adolescence. And then
00:04:53.700 the gerontologists were focused on later life and the problems of old age. What we realized,
00:05:00.440 and this was in the 1990s, that there was a big hole in the middle. We really knew very little,
00:05:06.140 especially about midlife. And I think a lot of that stemmed from some of the early famous
00:05:14.380 psychologists like Freud and Piaget. So Freud basically thought that development stopped around
00:05:20.720 adolescence. Your personality basically was sort of fixed in childhood. And Piaget thought that
00:05:27.720 your cognitive functioning was fixed by the time you were adolescent or in early adulthood at the
00:05:33.860 latest. And personality psychologists really thought that personality was set like plaster
00:05:40.520 for many, many years. So in the mid-90s, we started to realize that maybe we were missing
00:05:46.280 something by not examining the whole area of adulthood. People thought things were very
00:05:52.280 stable, that nothing was going to change until the decline set in in later life.
00:05:57.860 Okay. And so you and other researchers started looking at adulthood and what's going on there
00:06:02.720 and how people change and the challenges they face in adulthood and how those challenges might
00:06:07.340 change how they adapt to life or experience life. And the approach you take is this idea of
00:06:13.040 lifespan research. What is lifespan research? So lifespan research is focused on how people
00:06:21.500 change over time. Other approaches might just compare people of different ages. So you might
00:06:26.800 compare a 30-year-old with a 40-year-old or a 50-year-old. The lifespan approach follows people
00:06:32.360 over time. And so we started this longitudinal study called Midlife in the United States
00:06:38.020 over 30 years ago, and we've been following the same people over time. And the advantage of that
00:06:43.460 is you can really see how people move into midlife and then transition out of midlife into later
00:06:51.340 life. So we've been able to see the processes of change rather than just looking at people of
00:06:56.720 different ages at the same point in time. And the main advantage is that you can really focus on
00:07:03.080 prevention. So we can identify issues early on. The earlier you identify some of the important
00:07:09.840 factors that relate to your psychological and physical well-being, the earlier you can intervene
00:07:15.420 and identify some of the problems that can be addressed. And when you're doing lifespan research
00:07:22.200 and you're following these people from maybe their late mid thirties to their, you know,
00:07:27.140 seventies, like what things are you looking at in their life? Are you looking at their health,
00:07:30.980 their relationships? What sorts of factors are you paying attention to?
00:07:35.800 Definitely all of the above. We really take what I would call a biopsychosocial approach. So we
00:07:41.120 look at their biological functioning, their psychological functioning, and their social
00:07:45.640 functioning, their cognitive functioning. What we like to do is to really focus on
00:07:50.520 modifiable factors. So what are the things that you can change that might help people to move
00:07:57.500 through the aging process in a smoother way, in a healthier way? So we look at things like your
00:08:03.660 lifestyle, your health habits, your mindset, that's a big one, your attitudes, your personality,
00:08:09.660 your cognitive functioning. And these are things that we can modify. We can identify ways to either
00:08:16.540 prevent or to slow the declines that might naturally occur with aging.
00:08:22.160 All right.
00:08:22.300 So your research in life spend domain focuses on midlife.
00:08:25.560 We throw that word around like, I'm in my midlife years now.
00:08:29.660 How do you think most lay people define midlife?
00:08:32.700 And then how do researchers like you define it?
00:08:36.100 It's truly a moving target.
00:08:37.580 The older you are, the later you think it starts.
00:08:41.100 And what's interesting is that those in their 30s and 40s don't really want to call themselves
00:08:46.100 middle-aged, so they kind of push it up a little bit. Those in their 60s and 70s want to be
00:08:52.740 considered middle-aged, so they don't want to be considered old, so they tend to think midlife
00:08:58.060 lasts into the 60s and 70s. But I would say that the heart of midlife is really the 40s and the
00:09:04.120 50s. Another aspect, though, is really how old you feel, what we call subjective age. There's so much
00:09:10.760 variation at a particular chronological age that it's not as useful as thinking about how old
00:09:17.200 people feel. And the way you feel can be influenced by so many different things, not only your
00:09:22.700 physical health, but even your social relationships, where you are in terms of your life course. So
00:09:28.620 at age 40, some people are very healthy, other people are not. Some are married, some are not.
00:09:33.520 Some have newborns or young children, and other people have children who are leaving the nest.
00:09:38.660 So there's so many differences in terms of how a person's constellation of events and
00:09:44.540 lifestyle is at a particular age that I really like to think about midlife in terms of the
00:09:50.620 roles that you have.
00:09:51.820 If you're in the middle of generations, for example, so you have people who are younger
00:09:57.800 and older who are depending on you and you're focused on helping those who are in your family
00:10:03.960 or in the workplace or in community who are younger and older.
00:10:07.600 To me, that's really a way to define midlife, being in the middle generation and having your
00:10:13.500 responsibilities that are focused not only on yourself, but also on those who are younger
00:10:18.120 and older. And that can really happen at any chronological age. Anywhere from 30s to 60s,
00:10:25.080 you can be in that sort of middle range. All right. But so for the most part,
00:10:30.540 rough ballpark, 40s to 50s is generally midlife for most people.
00:10:35.000 Yes, that is, I think, a very reasonable way to define it if we want to focus on chronological age.
00:10:40.900 I usually say 40 to 60 plus or minus 10, which would make it 30 to 70 if I really want to broaden the definition, mainly because we know that when we ask people if they feel they're in midlife, people in their 30s will say yes, people in their 70s will say yes.
00:10:58.180 Okay. So it's a moving target. And what's interesting too about the idea of midlife,
00:11:04.040 particularly in American pop culture, we have this idea about midlife. It's pretty negative.
00:11:10.100 Like, oh, you're over the hill. You got to have a midlife crisis. It's obligatory.
00:11:14.060 But your research debunks a lot of these negative stereotypes we have about midlife.
00:11:19.820 Let's start with this idea of the midlife crisis. Where did this idea that once you hit your 40s,
00:11:25.260 you're going to have an existential crisis, you're going to go buy a car and divorce your
00:11:30.000 spouse and marry someone younger. Where did that come from? That is something that we can trace
00:11:37.000 to an article written by a psychoanalyst named Elliot Jacks in 1965. That's one of the earliest
00:11:43.880 mentions that we have been able to identify. And he was someone who wrote about famous artists,
00:11:50.940 but also people who were his patients. And what he found was people in their mid-30s to early 40s
00:11:58.060 were concerned that they were on their way downhill, that everything was decline afterwards,
00:12:04.720 and that they weren't as productive as they were. And they were feeling like they were afraid of
00:12:10.280 death. So that's where we think it started. It got popularized in a number of ways, though.
00:12:15.620 One of the most well-known ways that we see it popularized was with Gail Sheehy's book, Passages, where she called the transition at different ages, especially age 40, as a predictable crisis.
00:12:32.200 So the assumption that everybody would be going through this.
00:12:35.020 And it resonated with a lot of people because there are people who do have difficulties as they make a transition into the next decade.
00:12:42.360 Didn't, I think another book came out around that time, Daniel Levinson's book, The Seasons of a Man's Life. And he talked about the midlife transition as well.
00:12:51.180 Absolutely. In fact, Daniel Levinson and Dan Gould is another one. They all were talking about these different transitions, mainly going from 20s to 30s to 40s. And Gail Sheehy really drew heavily on Dan Levinson's work.
00:13:07.720 But he also did speak about these transitions.
00:13:11.480 But he said it was really a natural part of adult development, that as you are going into the next decade and there's periods of stability and change throughout adulthood.
00:13:23.240 But he didn't necessarily say that it was a crisis.
00:13:26.700 I think it was really not until Gail Sheehy popularized it that that became more of a common term.
00:13:32.860 And certainly it's also popularized by Hollywood and novelists who love to portray the midlife crisis with these stereotypical views of getting a red sports car, as you know.
00:13:45.380 Yeah. And see, I remember growing up in the late 80s and 90s, there's a lot of movies that came out made by baby boomers because they were hitting their midlife then. 0.65
00:13:56.000 That was about the midlife crisis. I remember City Slickers with Billy Crystal. 0.93
00:14:00.000 I think there's some other ones too, same sort of thing about these people, baby boomers hitting 1.00
00:14:03.980 midlife and they're having this crisis and they try to go on this adventure and try to figure 0.76
00:14:07.120 things out. And it's kind of popularized that idea even more. Yeah. It can be really funny and
00:14:12.700 people do have issues in midlife. It is a difficult time. There's a lot of stress. And so it kind of
00:14:18.780 capitalizes on that. And I think people can relate to it. And then another thing that happened that
00:14:24.000 entrenched this idea of the midlife crisis even more is that in the 2000s, there was this research
00:14:29.820 that came out that showed that people experienced a U-shaped curve of happiness. So they'd start out
00:14:36.180 happy in young adulthood, they would get progressively less happy as they approached
00:14:40.720 midlife, and then had their happiness go up as they left midlife. Tell us more about that research.
00:14:46.160 This is a very interesting period of time when there were many studies that consistently found this U-shape, which basically means if you compare people from 18 to 70 and you give them a questionnaire that asks them to rate their life satisfaction on a 10-point scale, with zero being the worst possible life and 10 being the best possible life,
00:15:12.400 what they found was those who were in their 40s and 50s were lower than those who were younger
00:15:19.240 and older. Now there's a number of things that I think are problematic with that work. So let me
00:15:25.760 say what I think the problems are. So first, when we looked at the data, the differences between
00:15:32.680 those who were younger or older than those in midlife were very small. So on this 10 point
00:15:38.300 scale, we're talking about a few tenths of a point. So maybe 7.4 for those who are in midlife
00:15:44.480 and 7.8 for those who were in early adulthood or later adulthood. So those are really small
00:15:52.000 differences, although with the large samples that they had, and these were samples not only in the
00:15:55.980 US, it was really all over the world. These were statistically significant differences. So it
00:16:00.780 became really common knowledge that the low point, in fact, they said the nadir of life satisfaction
00:16:07.440 is age 47. They pinpointed it to that particular age. So first of all, it really was a very small
00:16:14.540 difference. The other point I want to make is that now they have retracted, the people who
00:16:20.820 propose this U-shape have retracted it. And it's unfortunate why they retracted it. The reason
00:16:27.300 they've retracted it is because it turns out that the younger people, those under 40, are the ones
00:16:34.140 who have the lowest life satisfaction. So it really seems that it's just a difference in terms
00:16:42.120 of where you rank yourself relative to the other ages at one point in time. And that in my view is
00:16:50.060 not the best way to be looking at this question about whether midlife is good or not. First of
00:16:56.280 all, there are huge individual differences at any age. So on average, it doesn't really tell you
00:17:02.080 much about why some people are doing better than others. And the other thing is that when we follow
00:17:07.360 people in our longitudinal study, we don't see people going down in midlife per se. We see pretty
00:17:13.520 much what I would call consistent, stable life satisfaction. Most people maintain their levels
00:17:20.160 of satisfaction throughout life. Those who are happy tend to be happy most of the time. With some
00:17:25.940 blips when there are problems, certainly if you follow people on a daily basis, you can see their
00:17:30.980 ups and downs. But we don't see this downward trend in midlife on average as they do in the
00:17:37.460 U-shaped studies. All right. So being miserable in your midlife, not universal. But I think your
00:17:42.940 research did show there's a small percentage of people who do experience what you might call a
00:17:48.000 midlife crisis. I think it was like 20% to 25%. Correct. We asked this in the very beginning of
00:17:54.220 our study. We asked people, and this is from earlier generations, not current generations.
00:17:59.700 And they did say they had a midlife crisis, but as you say, it was only about 20 to 25%.
00:18:07.100 And I think it's important to qualify that what they meant by a midlife crisis was not necessarily
00:18:13.300 what Elliot Jacks originally had talked about, which was people thinking everything's going
00:18:17.320 downhill. The kind of things that they talked about were more related to events that happened
00:18:23.580 to them in midlife, such as getting divorced or losing a job or getting an illness. And those
00:18:31.020 things can really happen at any age. If they happen to you in midlife, then you may call it
00:18:35.060 a midlife crisis. There were some people who did talk about fears about getting older, but that was
00:18:42.080 less likely than those people who are focused on these external events. All right. So this idea of
00:18:48.280 midlife crisis, not really a thing. Some people experience it, but not very many, but it's not
00:18:53.980 because you hit your 40s and you're automatically going to have an existential crisis. You just
00:18:58.140 happen to have stuff that happens in midlife that can cause a lot of stress. Most people
00:19:03.200 generally go through midlife satisfied with life. Nevertheless, this idea of the midlife crisis
00:19:09.580 still exists. And one of the arguments you make in the book is that believing this idea or buying
00:19:15.020 into this idea of the midlife crisis can hurt you. How can it hurt people if they buy into this idea
00:19:20.600 that I hit my 40s, it's all downhill from here? I'm glad that you brought this up because I will
00:19:27.640 say that as I'm reading articles so often these days about the millennial midlife crisis, I am
00:19:35.380 getting concerned. I do think what's going on is that many people in their mid-30s and early 40s
00:19:41.940 are experiencing a lot of stress because of the financial crisis that we're all going through
00:19:48.700 and things related to housing. And this is causing a lot of stress. And I think people
00:19:54.600 are labeling it as a midlife crisis because they happen to be in midlife. And it's a very
00:19:59.100 difficult time because there are many people depending on them and they're having financial
00:20:03.140 stresses. And so it is really important to address this because I think a lot of people are expecting
00:20:10.380 to have a midlife crisis or thinking that what they're having is a midlife crisis.
00:20:14.800 Now, why is it so dangerous?
00:20:16.480 I think any negative aging stereotype is dangerous.
00:20:22.280 There's been research that shows that if you have a negative view of aging, it actually
00:20:26.760 affects your health for years.
00:20:29.080 And in fact, it could even affect your longevity and how long you live.
00:20:33.340 So having these negative views of the aging process have been shown to be detrimental
00:20:38.480 to your health.
00:20:39.400 But I also think that if you are expecting a midlife crisis and you're not doing well,
00:20:46.860 you're feeling stressed, you're unhappy, you may be missing things that you can do something about.
00:20:52.020 So you may be depressed.
00:20:53.380 Well, we have a lot of ways to treat depression, for example.
00:20:56.820 Or maybe you're experiencing hormonal changes and you think it's a midlife crisis.
00:21:02.080 There are things we can do to address hormonal changes.
00:21:04.820 So I think we can miss things that are treatable and important if we just label any maladjustment or difficulties in midlife as a midlife crisis and chalk it up to that.
00:21:16.400 And so if you think you're just supposed to feel terrible when you get to midlife, you might not seek the help that could actually be beneficial to you.
00:21:23.500 Yeah.
00:21:23.720 Believing in midlife crisis makes it kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
00:21:27.520 Yes, absolutely.
00:21:29.200 But I mean, the thing about midlife is it is a transition point because you've had about
00:21:34.220 20 years of adulthood under your belt and you're probably looking back at your life
00:21:39.000 and thinking, you know, how am I doing?
00:21:42.280 I've had 20 years of adulthood.
00:21:43.440 How am I doing in my career, in my relationships?
00:21:45.880 Am I as far as I thought I'd be?
00:21:48.140 And some people might look back at this time and be like, boy, I'm really behind on things.
00:21:53.680 I'm not where I want to be.
00:21:54.780 And that can cause some depression or some existential angst.
00:21:58.740 but your research has found that there's a thing you can do to mitigate some of, you know,
00:22:03.620 sort of internalizing this idea that, okay, I've reached midlife. I'm not doing great. I'm having
00:22:09.280 a midlife crisis. And it's this idea of the life review. How can a midlife life review help during
00:22:15.460 this transition period between young adulthood into midlife? That is a really great point to
00:22:22.200 make because I think there are many people who are getting to age 35, 40, 45 and not having
00:22:32.260 accomplished all of the goals that they thought they would have by this time. There's just a
00:22:36.620 general trend of people taking longer to reach the traditional adult milestones. For example,
00:22:44.140 people are marrying later or not at all. People are having children later or not at all. People
00:22:51.400 are taking longer to finish their education. People are taking longer to enter the workforce.
00:22:57.040 So all of these things that people may have thought, if they look at earlier generations,
00:23:01.580 that they would have accomplished by age 35, 40. And if they haven't, that makes them feel that
00:23:08.060 they are behind and that there are problems with not having met their goals. But what I like people
00:23:14.500 to think about is there's still a lot of time left. There are things that you can still do.
00:23:18.980 It's not all or nothing and there's plenty of time left to accomplish these things.
00:23:24.440 Now, the life review is something that I think is very beneficial.
00:23:29.680 A lot of times people are so busy in midlife, they're on automatic pilot and they don't
00:23:33.520 take time to sit down and reflect and think about where they are or why they are where
00:23:39.280 they are or what they really want to do.
00:23:41.560 So this is what the goal of the life review is.
00:23:43.720 And you can really do it at any time.
00:23:45.320 originally this life review is developed for people in much later life to reflect on their
00:23:50.680 life. I thought it would be very beneficial in midlife because not only are you looking back
00:23:55.460 to see where you've been, but also where you want to go. And so I think that's very beneficial for
00:24:01.600 people to reflect and think about what their situation is and what they can do to move forward.
00:24:08.140 Yeah. I think also doing the life review, you know, you might feel like, oh, I haven't really
00:24:12.520 done much so far. But if you ask some thoughtful questions and be like, well, is that really true?
00:24:18.920 You look back, well, actually, I've done quite a bit. There's a lot of things I have done.
00:24:22.500 I've laid a good ground, a foundation here. I can build off of that for the next 20 years.
00:24:28.660 I did something like that when I turned 40. On my 40th birthday, I got a hotel room near my house
00:24:34.120 and just wanted to be by myself. And I took all my journals that I had from since I was a kid
00:24:39.480 all the way through young adulthood. And I just read through them all, all night.
00:24:44.680 Because like in that, you get to see how you developed. And I also, in these journals,
00:24:47.680 I kind of established my goals I had for myself at different periods of my life.
00:24:51.560 And I was able to kind of see, oh, how did I do? And then how have my goals changed? And
00:24:55.760 am I at where I want to be? I thought it was a really useful, productive practice. It only cost
00:25:00.180 me like 70 bucks for the night in the hotel. That was it. Amazing. That is exactly what I would
00:25:05.900 hope people can do so i'm really excited to hear that you found it valuable yeah you got a list of
00:25:11.260 questions people can think through when they do their midlife review 10 or 5 years ago what did
00:25:15.480 i think i'd be doing at this point in my life which of those expectations have come true which
00:25:19.820 haven't what's going well right now what's not going well am i happy with what i'm doing why or
00:25:25.580 why not what am i doing or not doing that i want to change what is truly essential my life right
00:25:31.320 now? What is less important? What are my highest priorities? Where do I want to be in 10 or five
00:25:36.640 years? What do I want to be doing in 10 or five years? What changes do I need to make to get there?
00:25:42.140 What specific actions can I take to reach those goals? So yeah, those would be some good things
00:25:46.620 to think through as you do a midlife review. We're going to take a quick break for your words
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00:30:38.620 All right, let's talk about some of
00:30:40.840 the things you will experience in midlife because you are getting older and your body and mind
00:30:46.260 changes. One thing I've noticed about being in my forties is that sometimes I feel like I'm just not
00:30:53.200 as smart or as quick as I used to be. I mean, there'll be times when I'm at my computer trying
00:30:57.720 to figure something out and think, when did I get dumb? Like I'm just, how can I can't, I used to
00:31:02.780 be able to do this really fast. Am I imagining this or do you kind of get dumber in midlife? 0.99
00:31:08.200 definitely not you don't get dumber you actually get smarter in midlife now that said things are 0.97
00:31:15.420 slowing down this is part of the natural aging process but they shouldn't be slowing down so
00:31:21.180 much that you really notice it on a daily basis it might take a little bit longer to think of
00:31:26.180 something or to do something than it was when you were in your 20s but the slowing is a natural part
00:31:32.460 of the aging process and probably the one that's most noticeable. But you're not dumber. There are 0.98
00:31:38.380 two kinds of intelligence that we talk about. One is fluid intelligence, which is on the way down.
00:31:45.380 It's slowly, gradually declining, but it really shouldn't affect things that you do in your
00:31:51.420 everyday life, especially because the things we do are familiar with and we have learned how to
00:31:57.720 do them and we can improve on them. So it's only when we take people into the lab and give them
00:32:03.920 novel stimuli and give them a speed test, make them do something really quickly that we see
00:32:08.520 significant declines in midlife. But those really don't translate into daily life. So yes, there are
00:32:14.800 some things that are going down. On the other hand, and this is really what's most valuable,
00:32:20.060 is crystallized intelligence is going up. And that's basically your knowledge and your experience
00:32:25.240 and all that you've acquired for your 30, 40, 50 years,
00:32:30.160 you have so much knowledge and so much that you can apply to new situations.
00:32:35.080 And that can really compensate for any changes
00:32:38.280 that you might experience in the fluid intelligence.
00:32:41.200 All right.
00:32:41.780 So yeah, our fluid intelligence in midlife, it's slowing down a little bit.
00:32:44.820 So we're not as quick on our feet as we might have been in our 20s.
00:32:48.040 But that crystallized intelligence is going up,
00:32:51.100 sort of stuff we know in our head.
00:32:52.900 And I think there's been studies done that showed that individuals with a lot of crystallized
00:32:58.760 intelligence, older people can often outperform the younger people who have maybe higher fluid
00:33:04.240 intelligence, but because they don't have that crystallized intelligence, they kind of flounder
00:33:08.400 a bit before they get the answer. And then, you know, the wise old people like, well, here's the
00:33:12.000 answers already know it. Yes. In fact, probably the simplest example is on a vocabulary test.
00:33:17.780 When you're in high school taking your SATs, you've got to study these vocabulary words and try to do well on the test.
00:33:25.740 And if you compare performance of a young adult on a vocabulary test with that of a middle-aged or older adult, the middle-aged and older adult will outperform the young adult just because they have lived longer and they've read more and they know more.
00:33:40.240 It's just a natural process of gaining more knowledge and experience.
00:33:44.120 I think another thing that happens in midlife and why it might feel like your fluid intelligence
00:33:48.920 isn't as good. I think in midlife, you just have a lot more to think about and use your
00:33:54.560 fluid intelligence for. Because I'm thinking about in my 40s, I'm like juggling work and
00:33:58.960 then I'm juggling kids schedule and I'm juggling paying bills and I'm juggling other responsibilities.
00:34:05.100 And so my fluid intelligence or my prefrontal cortex has got a bunch of stuff in the hopper
00:34:10.260 that's got to sort through. And when I was in my 20s, I hardly had anything going on. I didn't
00:34:14.400 have kids. I didn't have a house. I didn't have much responsibility. And so it was easy to be
00:34:20.200 quicker because I had less to think about. Exactly. I like to think of this in terms
00:34:25.160 of executive functioning. So executive functioning is what we use to juggle schedules and to plan
00:34:32.840 and to organize things. And so multitasking in midlife is huge. And so executive function
00:34:39.940 is still pretty good in midlife. Again, it's on this downward trajectory, but the good news is
00:34:46.260 that all of the experience of juggling and doing all these things in midlife actually is good for
00:34:54.620 you in terms of maintaining your executive function. So the more activities you do,
00:34:59.060 The more things that you do to draw on your executive functioning in midlife, the better able you are to maintain your executive functioning into your later years.
00:35:07.480 All right. So having kids can help you and help midlife because you have to balance all that stuff.
00:35:11.440 Absolutely.
00:35:12.260 Yeah. Okay. So that's good to know. So you're not going to get dumber in midlife.
00:35:16.420 In fact, you have this crystallized intelligence that can beat that quickness you might have had more of when you're in your 20s.
00:35:23.520 So yeah, that's good to know. I'm glad to know that.
00:35:25.740 One thing I've also noticed people complain about in midlife is that their memory gets worse.
00:35:31.740 Like, ah, where did I put the keys?
00:35:33.600 Why didn't I remember to do this thing?
00:35:35.760 Does our memory get worse in midlife?
00:35:37.980 Yes, to a certain extent it does.
00:35:40.620 Again, it's part of this natural aging process.
00:35:44.540 Most people don't notice major memory changes in midlife.
00:35:49.040 Again, the slowing could affect it.
00:35:51.140 Sometimes it takes a little longer to remember something.
00:35:54.540 You might feel something's on the tip of your tongue, but you can't quite get at it.
00:35:58.200 That starts to happen in midlife.
00:36:00.620 But there are things that are affecting it.
00:36:02.860 Changes in the brain are happening.
00:36:04.820 So things like shrinking of the regions of the brain, cardiovascular disease can affect
00:36:11.260 memory.
00:36:12.520 So yes, there are memory changes in midlife, but for the most part, they're not problematic
00:36:18.300 or pathological in the sense that we think about dementia, which that really doesn't
00:36:22.780 happen in midlife.
00:36:24.620 And there are things we can do.
00:36:26.500 So in other words, you can use external memory aids.
00:36:30.300 So you don't have to remember phone numbers.
00:36:32.780 You can have them in your contact list and you can have your calendar to remember dates.
00:36:38.620 So even if you are experiencing some memory problems, you can rely on these memory aids
00:36:43.980 to help you.
00:36:45.100 Yeah.
00:36:45.400 And also the other thing too with memory, why it might feel like you don't remember
00:36:48.680 as much.
00:36:49.260 Again, it goes back to that idea in midlife, you probably just have a lot more stuff to
00:36:52.360 remember.
00:36:53.400 And so, yeah, you have to rely on those memory aids, externalize your memory.
00:36:56.760 Completely.
00:36:57.480 And in fact, sometimes when we think we're having a memory problem, it's really more
00:37:00.860 of a learning problem.
00:37:02.320 So you go to a party and you meet someone and they tell you their name.
00:37:05.980 And a few minutes later, you don't remember their name.
00:37:08.360 It's not really that your memory is a problem.
00:37:10.980 You are paying attention to too many other things.
00:37:13.160 You're at a party focusing on all these different things and you probably never got the name
00:37:17.680 into long-term memory in the first place.
00:37:21.220 So it's really not a memory problem, but we tend to think, oh my God, my memory, it's
00:37:25.660 going downhill and that's not necessarily going to be the case.
00:37:30.700 What about going back to the initial idea of the midlife crisis where the guy was talking
00:37:35.080 to artists and writers and things like that and they just felt like, oh, my best creative
00:37:39.720 days are behind me.
00:37:41.200 I'm going into midlife.
00:37:42.600 All my good ideas are gone.
00:37:43.680 I can't be creative anymore.
00:37:45.560 Do we get less creative and innovative as we get older?
00:37:49.060 Not necessarily.
00:37:50.100 we did a study of inventors, so people who had received patents from the U.S. We started this
00:37:58.600 study because we were really interested in looking at midlife functioning outside of the lab. Most of
00:38:04.420 our cognitive studies are done where we bring people into our lab and give them cognitive tests.
00:38:09.400 We wanted to see how cognitive functions were operating in real-world settings, and this was
00:38:16.180 one example, the patents. And we thought that midlife might be the cognitive sweet spot because
00:38:22.380 of what I talked about a few moments ago, the crystallized intelligence is on the way up and
00:38:27.660 the fluid intelligence, yes, it's on the way down, but it still has a long way to go before it hits
00:38:32.220 bottom. So we kind of saw this point in midlife where we thought it might actually be the best of
00:38:37.200 both worlds. And we looked to see when patents were most common, at what age these patents were
00:38:43.180 most common. And indeed, it was in early midlife. They were the most common in the early 40s.
00:38:49.300 It was also the case that many people patented for the first time after age 50. So patenting
00:38:55.720 continued into 50s and beyond. So it's not that all of a sudden your creativity dwindles.
00:39:02.260 Yeah. Another thing I've seen is that I think we often have this idea of entrepreneurship. It's
00:39:07.100 like the young entrepreneur, like the Mark Zuckerberg or the Steve Jobs when he was in
00:39:11.280 20s and he founded Apple. But when the researchers look at it, most successful startups are started
00:39:17.260 by people who are in their 40s or 50s. Yes. So that, I think, has to do with their decision
00:39:23.740 making and their experience, because they've learned from past mistakes and draw on those
00:39:29.900 kinds of experiences. And there are different kinds of intelligences that are working. And so
00:39:35.960 some of the more forward-thinking kinds of novel breakthroughs might occur earlier on. In fact,
00:39:41.920 we found something to support that in our patent study. Whereas those in later life, they're also
00:39:47.780 doing innovative things, but they're more drawing on changes to things that they've already worked
00:39:53.460 on, going in new directions with things that have already been established. But those people who are
00:39:59.040 in their 40s and 50s are really at the peak of decision-making and have a lot of experience.
00:40:03.720 I also want to add that one of the things we looked at was multi-age, mixed generational teams, because many patents are not done by individuals, they're done by teams. And we found some preliminary evidence that those patents that were made by people of mixed ages, so having younger and middle-aged and older adults, actually were the ones who were the most successful.
00:40:27.180 All right. That's interesting. All right. So this is good news. You're actually midlife. You're at your peak of creativity in certain ways, peak of good decision making. So the things you start will probably be more successful. I'd love to hear this. Let's shift over to our physical health. How does our physical health change in midlife?
00:40:44.640 In many ways, things are going on. Now, the first thing people notice are the obvious outward
00:40:51.220 changes. So people get reading glasses because of presbyopia, and they get gray hair and thinning
00:40:58.920 hair, and they feel like they're slowing down, or when they get an injury, it takes longer to
00:41:04.680 recover. So those are the things you can actually see. But on the inside, there's a lot of things
00:41:10.000 that are also going on, things like bone loss, muscle loss, change in lung function, immune
00:41:16.460 functioning, all of these things are declining slowly. A lot of these things we can do something
00:41:22.120 about, and I think that's what's most important, is that the earlier we start to take note of these
00:41:29.260 kinds of changes and do things to try to modify or prevent decline, the better off we're going to be.
00:41:36.700 All right. So you're not doomed to get fatter, weaker, and creakier in midlife?
00:41:40.980 Definitely not. But the things that we do know about in midlife, so if you are going for regular
00:41:47.700 checkups and look at your biomarkers like cholesterol or glucose or blood pressure or BMI,
00:41:54.480 what's I think really important to say is that those indicators in midlife are more important
00:42:01.860 for your later life than what happens in later life because it's a long process. If you have
00:42:06.680 have high blood pressure for 30 years, that's going to do a lot more damage than if you
00:42:11.040 get it later on in life. So it's really important to focus on these things in midlife. It's really
00:42:17.500 making a long-term investment in your health. And so if you're able to address some of these
00:42:22.100 health issues in midlife, it's going to pay big benefits later on in life.
00:42:27.320 All right. So exercise, eat right, get those checkups, because that's going to make your
00:42:30.340 midlife experience more pleasant, get more out of it. But it's also setting you up for a better
00:42:35.840 elderhood. Exactly. All right. Let's talk about this. What about friendships and relationships?
00:42:41.480 How do those change in midlife? One of the things that happens in midlife is we get so busy with
00:42:47.160 our day-to-day responsibilities that we sometimes lose track of our relationships that are outside
00:42:54.460 our immediate family. And social relationships are so important for midlife, but even into later
00:43:01.420 life. So if people can maintain friendships in midlife that carry over into later life, when
00:43:07.200 it's actually even harder to make new friends, it's really important. And what we find is that
00:43:13.760 it's important to get and give social support to others. And this can be in your family as well as
00:43:20.160 with friends. But we find that one way to maintain friendships is to incorporate it into other
00:43:27.960 activities. So doing things with your family and a lot of friends typically will be from
00:43:34.780 your kids' friends' families. So if you can do things that not only are social with other families
00:43:42.000 and friends, that's a really good way to do it. Or if you want to exercise with other people like
00:43:47.020 your friends, that's also a good way to do it. We call it temptation bundling because really what
00:43:52.240 it's doing is you're doing two things that are important. You're seeing your friends, you're
00:43:55.960 talking to your friends, and you're also exercising at the same time. So it kind of
00:44:00.540 does something for the busy people in midlife to try to combine them at the same time.
00:44:06.420 Something my wife and I have noticed with our friendships as we've gotten to midlife
00:44:10.020 is it seems like it was a lot easier to make friends when we were younger and our kids were
00:44:14.780 younger. Like something about that stage of life makes it easier to make friends because,
00:44:18.760 you know, young kids, they don't have a lot going on and you can just kind of throw them together
00:44:22.960 and they get along. But when your kids get older, their personalities are more formed
00:44:28.400 and they get along more or less with other kids. And everyone's got extracurriculars going on at
00:44:35.120 different times. People are busy. So it seems like it just gets harder and harder to sync up.
00:44:40.220 And it seems like if you want friendships in midlife, you have to be even more intentional
00:44:45.720 about it. Yes, I think that makes a lot of sense. And in some ways, it's really upon us to really
00:44:53.760 make a concerted effort to maintain the friendships that we had established, especially for the people
00:44:59.880 that you really care about and that you really enjoy. You may not necessarily want to keep up
00:45:04.820 with all the people that you had made friends with earlier on, but to the extent that you
00:45:11.780 are interested in people that you had good relationships with, it does take more effort
00:45:18.560 to maintain those relationships. Another thing that could cause stress that's related to
00:45:25.180 relationships in midlife is that when you're in middle age, there's a good chance you have parents
00:45:31.580 who are in their 70s and 80s, and they've got health problems and issues that you've got to
00:45:36.360 tend to. But then at the same time, you have kids who might be in their teen years or just
00:45:41.740 about in their young adulthood. And they're going to be stressed with that. So when you're in midlife,
00:45:45.880 you're trying to balance both of these sets of relationships. 0.74
00:45:49.840 Yes, this is what we call the sandwich generation, right? The middle-aged adult who has kids who 0.76
00:45:55.840 are still depending on them and they require a lot of attention. And then their parents are
00:46:01.060 starting to have health problems or aging in ways that require assistance. And there's a large
00:46:07.420 percentage of those who are in middle age who are faced with this kind of squeezing between
00:46:13.840 generations. And it can be very stressful because you're also needing to focus on your own health
00:46:18.720 and well-being and your own work. That said, I think that this may be the time in midlife where
00:46:25.020 you just have to address this need and realize it's not going to last forever. Your kids are
00:46:30.760 going to grow up and your parents are not going to live forever. So it is a crunch time in a way.
00:46:35.820 And I think one of the reasons that midlife is ideal in a way to be able to handle this kind of squeeze between generations is because of this notion of generativity.
00:46:46.820 This was a concept developed by a famous psychoanalyst named Eric Erickson, and he called generativity the main task for those who are in midlife.
00:46:57.840 So it's really concern for the next generation.
00:47:01.300 And midlife people are really good at it.
00:47:03.640 It may take its form as parenting, but it can also take its form as mentoring younger
00:47:09.440 people at work.
00:47:10.820 And so at that time in midlife, not only are you being generative to other people who are
00:47:16.780 younger than you, but you're also now taking care of people who are older, who are depending
00:47:22.680 on you.
00:47:23.340 And that does create a crunch.
00:47:26.320 Yeah.
00:47:26.540 But I think the idea is just embrace that idea.
00:47:28.720 Like I'm the adult now.
00:47:30.420 I'm the person in charge, and I have all these talents and these skills and this experience, and I'm in a position to do a lot of good during this time.
00:47:38.900 But what we find is that social support can go both ways.
00:47:44.320 You can give social support and receive social support.
00:47:48.280 And the ideal situation is a balance, giving and receiving.
00:47:53.080 In midlife, it turns out that the balance is tipped towards giving.
00:47:57.360 You're giving more to other people.
00:47:58.760 As you get into later life, it may flip and you may be able to reap the benefits of all your giving and be able to receive more social support.
00:48:08.600 Okay, so besides just thinking about, okay, this is just going to be a short period of time, maybe change your mindset about this period where I can be generative about this.
00:48:17.500 Any other tactics you've found that are useful to help people manage this sandwich generation crunch?
00:48:23.160 One thing to keep in mind is that research shows that giving social support is good for your health. It's not only that it's benefiting the people you're giving the support to, it actually benefits your own health. 0.99
00:48:36.380 So if you think of it as I'm being active and I'm juggling a lot of different things, but I'm doing something that's purposeful and meaningful, I think that can really go a long way towards helping people feel that this is really something that is good for me as well as for the people that I'm helping.
00:48:55.020 Yeah. I also think too, just making sure you carve out time for yourself. If you're starting
00:48:59.340 to feel really overwhelmed, just take a step back and maybe find some other people that can help,
00:49:04.080 you know, fill in while you take a, you know, a weekend off just to take care of yourself.
00:49:09.060 Great point.
00:49:10.200 Yeah. So, I mean, one of the big points in your book is that midlife, you call, you know,
00:49:15.440 the title of your book is prime time. Midlife can be the prime time of your life. And I think
00:49:21.180 what we've talked about in this conversation is that a lot of these myths that we have about
00:49:25.560 midlife, not necessarily true. Yes, there's some downsides, but there's a lot of benefits
00:49:31.020 to being in your 40s and 50s. And going back to this idea of mindset, you talked about the people
00:49:37.040 who successfully navigate midlife. They take what you call a gain frame mindset as opposed to a loss
00:49:44.420 frame mindset. What's the difference between those two mindsets? The gain view is thinking
00:49:50.380 that you can improve and make changes and go in new directions. And that's really in contrast to
00:49:56.760 the loss view, which many people hold, which is that things go downhill with age and there's
00:50:01.820 really nothing I can do about it. So being game frame means asking, what can I still build instead
00:50:09.020 of what am I losing? And so this mindset goes a long way. If you think there's nothing you can do,
00:50:15.160 then you really won't do anything. So in this case, really having a gain frame means that you're
00:50:22.020 going to invest the time and energy on your psychological, cognitive, physical, and social
00:50:27.940 well-being, and that will bring big benefits. Yeah. And you gave, throughout the book, lots
00:50:34.320 of case studies of individuals who took this gain frame mindset. People who maybe they hit their
00:50:39.200 40s and they weren't where they wanted to be in their career. And instead of thinking, well,
00:50:43.740 it's over for me. I had my shot and I didn't get it. I'm going to go back to school, get an
00:50:49.240 education and something else. And I'm going to try something new because I've got plenty of time
00:50:52.860 left. I think when you get to age 40 or 50, some people think it's the end. There's not much time
00:50:59.020 left, but you have half your life left. So I like to say, think of your life as half full, not half
00:51:03.940 empty. That approach, I think, goes a long way towards being able to conceive of making big
00:51:10.160 changes. There's many things that you can do. And yes, there were some examples. For example,
00:51:15.380 the guy that got his PhD at age 72. When he was in his 30s, he had started towards his PhD,
00:51:22.640 but he had to put it on hold, what I call goal shelving. So he couldn't do it because of his
00:51:28.280 family situation. He did other things, but it never left his mind. He always really wanted to
00:51:34.320 get that degree. So he went back to school in his 60s when it was possible and he got his PhD at age
00:51:39.300 72. So there are many inspiring stories of people who accomplish things that they couldn't do
00:51:46.440 earlier on. Yeah. I love that idea, that tactic of goal shelving. Can you tell us more about that?
00:51:52.900 Yes. So sometimes you can't do things right here and now. So you're very busy. I think the idea
00:52:00.540 of getting a degree is one thing, but maybe even changing professions or changing jobs,
00:52:06.140 it may not be possible when you're in the thick of things, having financial obligations and things
00:52:12.100 like that. And so you might decide, I'm not going to be able to do it now, but I'm going to work
00:52:17.280 towards it. Say you want to get a new profession. I have a story in the book of somebody who was a
00:52:24.000 social worker, but really wanted to be an interior designer. Now she didn't have the skills to be an 0.93
00:52:29.320 interior designer, but she couldn't give up her social work job. And so she kind of goal shelved
00:52:35.700 the new goal of being an interior designer, but she didn't let it go completely. In her spare
00:52:42.680 time, she was taking courses and reading and trying things out so that she could see how that
00:52:49.080 profession might turn out later on. And once she was equipped with the right skills, she was able
00:52:54.920 to change from being a social worker to being interior designer. So even if you put something
00:53:00.220 on hold. It doesn't mean that you have to completely abandon it. You can be doing things
00:53:05.140 to learn and acquire the kind of skills to optimize your skills so that ultimately you'll
00:53:11.400 be able to make that change. Right. Because you've got plenty of time to do it.
00:53:15.300 No one knows how long they're going to live. That's something we do need to acknowledge. But
00:53:19.000 for the most part, statistically speaking, there should be plenty of time.
00:53:22.720 Yeah. And you also highlighted people who hit their 40s and they didn't have
00:53:27.340 the relationships. They weren't married. They're like, oh, I'm bummed out. I lost my shot. But
00:53:32.280 the people who were able to find love, they took the game frame mindset towards midlife and said,
00:53:38.320 hey, I didn't get married in my 20s or 30s. Maybe kids are off the table at this point,
00:53:44.560 but I want that. I can still have it. I can still make it happen for myself.
00:53:48.860 Yes. There's a story in the book about a woman who was very successful professionally and she
00:53:54.340 was, she was happy. She wasn't able to find the right relationship for many, many years. And she
00:54:00.040 realized she wasn't going to have children. However, she put herself out there. She went
00:54:04.780 to social events. She was always there doing things. She had opportunities and eventually
00:54:10.140 she did find someone and she got married in her fifties and she wound up having children. They
00:54:16.300 were her new husband's children from a former marriage. So that's a lovely example of how
00:54:22.140 things can turn out. Well, if there's one thing you hope people take away from your book after
00:54:26.780 finishing it, what would it be? I would say don't dread midlife, embrace it. It really is prime
00:54:33.760 time. I do want to say just because midlife is prime time for those who are beyond midlife,
00:54:39.000 it doesn't mean it goes downhill from there. You can do things in midlife to try to maintain
00:54:44.260 prime time as long as possible. Now, we have this negative view of midlife as a time of crisis and
00:54:51.240 decline. And what I really hope to do with the book is to replace that narrative, to see midlife
00:54:58.140 as a time for growth. And I think there are so many options and things that you can do. It can be
00:55:04.400 a difficult time, a busy time, a stressful time. People are on autopilot because they have so much
00:55:10.440 going on. And so I don't want people to miss the joys of midlife. I want them to really realize
00:55:16.580 that there are so many things in midlife that are important for you, for those who are younger and
00:55:23.200 older, and also for your long-term health and well-being. And so this is a time where you can
00:55:29.500 use your skills that you've developed over the years, and there's still plenty of time. So I
00:55:35.840 like to think of midlife as an opportunity rather than a period of crisis or loss. And in that sense,
00:55:42.860 That mindset of thinking of midlife that way really can help people change for the better.
00:55:49.160 I love it.
00:55:49.480 Well, Margie, this has been a great conversation.
00:55:50.980 Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?
00:55:53.520 Well, I have a website, margilachman.com, which would be a great place.
00:55:58.220 I put a lot of information about my research on that website.
00:56:03.040 So I would suggest that as a starting place.
00:56:06.120 Fantastic.
00:56:06.380 Well, Margie Lachman, thanks for your time.
00:56:07.340 It's been a pleasure.
00:56:08.280 Thank you so much, Brett.
00:56:10.380 My guest here is Margie Lachman.
00:56:11.660 and she's the author of the book, Primetime.
00:56:13.280 It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.
00:56:15.720 You can find more information about her work
00:56:16.860 at our website, margilachman.com.
00:56:19.140 Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash primetime,
00:56:21.900 where you can find links to resources
00:56:22.960 when we delve deeper into this topic.
00:56:32.140 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast.
00:56:34.840 If you haven't done so already,
00:56:35.660 I'd appreciate it if you take one minute
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00:56:47.620 Until next time, it's Brett McKay. Remind you to listen to the ALM podcast,
00:56:50.700 but put what you've heard into action.