Building Tribe — How to Create and Sustain Communities of Men
Episode Stats
Summary
Community is one of life s most valuable, but increasingly scarce resources. While we hear about a supposed epidemic of male loneliness, many men still resist joining groups or struggle to maintain involvement after initial enthusiasm wanes. In this episode, Frank Shorts will help us understand the barriers to building male community and how to overcome them.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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Community is one of life's most valuable, but increasingly scarce resources.
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While we hear about a supposed epidemic of male loneliness, many men still resist joining
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groups or struggle to maintain involvement after initial enthusiasm wanes.
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Staying in the show, Frank Shorts will help us understand the barriers to building male
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Frank is the CEO of F3, a free, all-volunteer men's leadership organization that uses workouts
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to bring men together and supports hundreds of decentralized chapters worldwide.
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In the first half of our conversation, Frank explains the psychology behind men's hesitation
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to join groups, how to navigate the wish stream of idealized community, and why expecting
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We then discuss what makes leadership in a decentralized group different from traditional
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hierarchies, the importance of embracing messiness, and why allowing men to make their own decisions
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create stronger leaders than giving them a rulebook to follow.
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We enter a conversation with Frank's perspective on cultivating patience as a leader and how
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to measure success when building a community of men.
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After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash men's groups.
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And up until a couple of years ago, I could have said president, but now CEO, we kind of
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And the thing about F3 is, and guys who are familiar know, but those who aren't, everything's
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So we have sort of different names for what we do that are a little bit kind of, you know,
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And so, yes, CEO on paper, but the official title within F3 is Nantan, which is an Apache
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word, kind of meaning a cultural and spiritual leader.
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We've had the guys who started F3 on the podcast.
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So F3 is a free men's leadership group that uses workouts to trick you into coming out
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Our stated mission is to plant, to grow, and to serve small workout groups for men in order
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The founders, as you mentioned, Dave Redding, Tim Whitmire, Dredd, and OBT, affectionately known
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within F3, kind of looked around and said, hey, we see a lot of guys at church and other
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civic organizations and at work and whatever, a lot of guys just standing around with their
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hands in their pockets and nobody doing anything about the world around them and influencing
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And there's just not a lot of leading happening.
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And Dave, with his special forces background, said, hey, you know, the place I learned the
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most about leadership and the way I think we could spread leadership throughout our communities
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and in our world is via training, physical training.
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It's a great place, you know, pretty low risk to do that.
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And that wasn't the intention when it started, which, you know, again, you probably go back
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and listen and hear it, but it wasn't the intention when it started, but it is kind of
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So the short answer to that very long answer I gave is it's a place where men can come
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into community with one another and get physically fit and learn leadership.
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I mean, you can go to the F3 website and you can find, there's like chapters all over the
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Ooh, I should have had that much more readily available on the tip of my tongue.
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And so typically the workouts are early in the morning before work and it's a bootcamp style
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Typically body weight, although some places, you know, there's kettlebells or sandbags and
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But yeah, typically, you know, if you sort of shot at the middle of the curve on an F3
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workout, it's going to happen about 515, 530, sometimes a little earlier, sometimes a
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And it's going to be a lot of body weight and calisthenic type, you know, some running
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pushups, sit-ups, pull-ups, and then really, you know, a lot of whatever we can find.
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So you do the workout and then there's also a fellowship aspect to it, a leadership aspect
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Because again, the workout is the hook, you know, that's like the Trojan horse for that
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It's just the way we sneakily trick you into coming because, you know, you go, Hey, free
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So the three Fs are fitness, fellowship, and faith.
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And really, you know, we don't have a program per se, but if you were to, again, if you were
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to kind of shoot at the middle and go, well, what's typical, right?
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Guys get together early in the morning and work out together.
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It's pretty strenuous, pretty vigorous workout, generally speaking.
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And then we get together for what we call a confiteria afterward.
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You hang out, you make friends, and you get deeper in fellowship with one another because,
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and you know this probably as well or better than most anyone, community is really where
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we're going to save the country, where we're going to do our best work is in community with
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And then what happens inevitably once you do that is guys start looking at their lives and
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go, well, now that I've got these things more or less squared away, right?
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And they start looking outside themselves now that they are more settled.
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They start looking outside themselves and saying, well, what can I do for others?
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And how can you live in such a way that you can kind of wear yourself out in the service
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So we don't make any kind of determination about, well, a guy ought to believe in Jesus
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Christ or a guy ought to believe in Buddha or a guy ought to believe in whatever.
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We just say, you got to believe in something bigger than yourself in order to be a virtuous
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And so a lot of times in those meetings after workouts, guys will study.
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They might study certain kinds of books, you know, whatever.
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We have a book that Dave wrote, Dred wrote called The Q Source.
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And it sort of outlines our overall leadership philosophy and framework.
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And so guys will study that together and we'll discuss that together.
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We've got podcasts about it and all kinds of stuff.
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But so I wouldn't say there's like a super formal program, but we do have what we call
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And so you kind of get in there and you're like, oh, hey, I don't know if this will work
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Well, maybe try it until you find something better.
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So, but that's the idea is to create leaders amongst men and to take those things that we learn
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in what we call the gloom, which is that, you know, those pre-dawn hours when your family's
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sleeping and, you know, work hasn't started calling yet, those things that we learn there
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and take them home, take them to the community so we can be better people.
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So, and this is, you know, conceptually, I think Dave and Tim early on were like, you
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And if really what we're called to do is to create leaders, then we're going to have
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to hand off the power here, you know, as time goes on.
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And so the idea is that, you know, if you start making rules, then you have to make more
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And it kind of becomes this big spiraling thing.
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And then pretty soon you got 5,000 page bills getting introduced into Congress, right?
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So we live by a mission, a credo and five core principles.
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And the idea is that every man has been born and put on this earth to be a leader.
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And so what we try and do is help guys to recapture that.
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We want men to lean into that part of themselves and to figure out how to, to not just lead
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a workout well, or, or to even manage something well, but to truly influence others for good
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I feel like I didn't answer the question very well.
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So since every man is a, is, you know, is a leader, we say, okay, then I can't be in
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charge of where you are because Brett, where you're in Tulsa, right?
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I don't have any idea of what the right thing to do will be where you are.
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So I have to teach you how to lead and give you the power and, and, and, you know, the
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empowerment, I guess, really to say, Hey, you make those decisions.
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I think that honestly, not to put too fine a point on it, but like, that's been one of
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the best things I learned for myself from F3 is that I don't need permission to be a
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I think that's a, you know, that's something that I think men and maybe people in general
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kind of crave in our world anymore is we, we want someone else to tell us what to do.
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I don't know whether it's because we just don't want to make the decision or because,
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you know, we want it to be their fault if it doesn't go well or, you know, something,
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I don't know, but we don't seem to want to take the personal responsibility.
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And F3 teaches us that there isn't anybody else responsible, but you.
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And you're the CEO, but again, this, this is volunteer.
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And the reason I joined is because I was overweight and I had sleep apnea.
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But essentially I was like, well, I got to get in shape somehow.
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So I started going to the gym, but I kept hearing about this F3 thing, kept hearing
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about it, kept hearing about it, kept hearing about it.
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And so I showed up one Saturday and I was hooked.
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There was just something very magical about the fact that it's always outdoors no matter
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I mean, like horrifyingly cold because it was November when I went out for my first one
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And there was just something invigorating about like we're outside in the elements.
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And then at the end of every F3 workout, we have something called a COT or a circle of
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And it's a place for men to kind of lay down their burdens next to their brothers where
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The old saying, a burden shared is half a burden, a joy shared is twice the joy, something
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And so it's a place where you can kind of lay down your burden and say, hey, help.
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You know, and I've heard everything in those things, but there was something about that
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end piece, laying my hand on another guy because you get in kind of a big circle and you
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kind of huddle up and then feeling that energy from other men who were in the same spot I
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So I kind of jumped all in, you know, both feet and ended up finding myself in just weird
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If you're a believer in coincidence, then it was coincidental.
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And I just would find myself bumping into the right kind of people and, you know, just volunteering
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and jumping into say, yeah, no, I can help with that or, you know, whatever it might
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And then pretty soon, you know, became really good friends with Dred, Dave Redding, and we
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kind of figured out how we're going to do this together.
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So, you know, there was a guy he handed it off to, and then that guy, you know, stepped
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down and handed it off to me, and that's the way it'll always go forever.
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And I think, you know, kind of to touch on both things, how I got involved and why I got
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involved is, A, how it was almost by accident and how I became the leader of this whole deal,
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I think also was almost, you know, again, coincidence or however you want to look at it, but almost
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We're just sort of right place, right time, and I think God put me where he wanted me
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But I think that the nice thing, or maybe the nice thing, but the beautiful thing about
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this is that I will serve for a period of time, and then I will have accomplished what
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I need to, and I'll hand it off to somebody else.
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And so to kind of harken back to the how do you decentralize this thing is, first thing
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I'll help make decisions along the way to support that mission or to move us forward
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But ultimately, that's how we decentralize it, right?
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Is we only commit ourselves to these very few things.
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We try and keep a mission in men's hearts, and they'll run the organization.
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You know, you guys will figure it out there in Tulsa.
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I'm curious, like how, I mean, your life has obviously changed because of your involvement
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with F3, but how have you seen like other men's lives change during your involvement
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There's easy ways that, you know, like obvious ways.
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We have seen things in F3 where, look, and one of our core principles is that it's open
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So number one is it's always free, as you mentioned.
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And when we say all men, we absolutely mean it, right?
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And so we have convicted felons working out next to billionaires in the same workout.
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And so the way that this changes men or the things that it does is it turns a light on
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in their hearts again because it doesn't matter what your lifestyle has been or will
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It doesn't matter where you've been, where you came from.
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When you are a man, you have this need inside you.
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And the world has a tendency to try and figure out a way to quiet that spark down, right?
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You know, to get that drive tamped down so that we can control you and we can make sure
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that you become non-dangerous, you know, to the things that we're trying to do.
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And so we hear stories of, you know, guys who beat alcoholism.
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We've saved marriages, you know, and guys attributed to F3 and, you know, people who
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have, you know, who have been steeped in addiction who have come out of it because they say, hey,
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you know, being around you guys has made me realize I got to do better in my life and
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So it's almost innumerable, the number of stories that we could tell that are out there
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in guys that in a very acute way, I changed my life today.
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Probably in some ways for every single guy, however many there are, we estimate something
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So there's 80,000 different stories that we could tell of how it impacted a man's life
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So I wanted to bring you on the podcast today to talk about leading groups, like leading
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men's groups, or even just forming a group of guys who, you know, you're trying to get
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So I know a lot of our listeners, that's something that they've been trying to do that they struggle
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with and they run into these issues and they just feel like it's impossible.
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And so I want to tap into your expertise with your experience, establishing the culture in
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And then you also have other leadership experience as well.
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And, you know, maybe you can find some insights that F3, from F3 that we can apply to other
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So the first question is, you know, you hear a lot about the male loneliness crisis.
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They're looking for friends, but at the same time, men, they seem resistant to joining a community
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group or even getting things going with another guy just to hang out.
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I tell you, I know, here's what I think, and I could be wrong, but I think that the hesitancy
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on the part of men to do this kind of thing is, well, a number of things.
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He's afraid to say, I'm making a stand because that's not an easy thing to do.
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It ain't fun, you know, to have other people be like, you suck.
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I think there's some fear and some trepidation around doing that kind of thing.
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But I think also, it's kind of like we were alluding to before.
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The thing that I think keeps guys from doing this is they really believe that there has
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to be some, that there's some right way to do it that they've been just kept out of the
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You know, they just don't get to know what that right way is.
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And other people seem to be doing it just fine.
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But gosh, you know, why won't anyone write the book so I can just follow the program?
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And if you believe there's a program, that just means you're following somebody else's dream.
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You're following somebody else's way of doing it.
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And so I think that, you know, to some degree, it's like, you know, why won't a guy do this?
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Well, because he thinks there's a right way to do it and he's afraid to fail.
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And I think guys get lonely because they have been convinced that somehow that that's what
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You know, if they say so, I guess we're lonely.
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Or maybe sometimes I think too, they're like, you know, I'm afraid of putting myself out there.
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I don't want to have to take on all that responsibility and all that kind of stuff.
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But I also think that one of the things that keeps a guy from feeling that connection or
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wanting that, you know, or whatever it might be, or to start a group like this is he just
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thinks that, again, since he thinks there's some way to do it right, that he shouldn't
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When the fact of the matter is, and again, you know this probably as well or better than anyone,
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is you won't know until you get out there and start.
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But this alleged epidemic of loneliness, and I do think it exists.
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I think it gets solved by doing things, you know, by being out there and being with people.
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So, yeah, I mean, I think you hear people talk about a lot like, oh, well, we no longer
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have any third places anymore to go to, et cetera.
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And it's like, well, you can make a third place, like find a park and do a workout.
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And I don't know, not that you and I frequent Starbucks is a whole lot necessarily, but
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I don't know if he has the intention of turning it back into more of a gathering place or a
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But nothing says get out of here like a paper cup with a sleeve, you know, that they shove
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at the end of a counter and they just yell your name.
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They got to turn tables, man, because they got money to make, because they got investors
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And so you don't have to wait for Starbucks to create a third place for you.
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Although I do see it starting to trend more, maybe back that way.
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You don't have to wait for church and you and I both know, like, theoretically, that
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And so sometimes you just have to take matters into your own hands.
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I was telling somebody this morning, actually, men look around, people look around a lot and
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The thing that we teach and that we talk about a ton in F3 for sure is, hey, if you think
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that thought, the instant you think that thought, the next thought ought to be looking in the
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mirror and going, wait, I just remembered I'm that somebody.
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Alexis de Tocqueville talked about in Democracy in America, talked about, you know, when he
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came to America, he noticed how Americans at the time, if there was like a tree in the
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middle of a road, they would just form a group together and solve it.
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He said, well, in Europe, they would like, wait, okay, which, like, who are we supposed to
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We've kind of become like Europeans in the 19th century that Tocqueville was criticizing.
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And I think that's why I'm so grateful that, well, I say I found F3, but I think F3 found
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And I think that's the way it always goes, right?
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If you want something good in your life, you'll either find this or it'll find you.
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But that's been the best thing is it's like guys no longer, guys that I hang out
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with anyway, we don't sit around going, somebody ought to do that.
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It's done before anybody had the thought of whether or not it should get done because
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We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.
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Something I've seen in different organizations, whether it's like a sort of informal group
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of individuals, like just guys trying to get together to do a workout together, like
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a poker night once a month, or even more structured organizations, like at a church group, you'll
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see this phenomenon, you'll get it going, and then you'll have guys who enthusiastically
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show up once or twice, and then they just vanish.
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Is it a failure of unmet expectations or something else going on?
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You know, like everybody starts with great intentions, but boy, when the rubber meets
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the road and it starts to get hard, you know, I don't want to show up for that.
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Someone's supposed to, I'm supposed to be entertained, Brent.
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The commercials, my YouTube pre-rolls taught me that.
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I'm supposed to just eat and drink and be merry.
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And so I think guys show up, and it happens in F3, as you might imagine.
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You know, some guys come out and they blaze out, and I always get nervous.
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Like the guys who are just a little too enthusiastic.
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And I want to be like, eh, you're going to need to save some for the fifth lap here,
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You know, like you need to pump the brakes just a little bit because consistency is going
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I don't know if you read that one, but it's a fantastic book.
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And essentially, you know, he kind of says, most of us run around with this sort of finite
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mindset that there's winners and there's losers.
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And there are in sports, you know, in places where there is a definite ending, a finite
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time period or whatever it might be, but there's no winning in life.
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It's a journey that we're all on together, theoretically, right?
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And I think it's part of our culture where it's like, well, I showed up at the gym three
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And you go, well, no, you have to show up for months and years.
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Again, it's this finite mindset of, well, you know, I thought after three times it was going
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And you go, well, the only way it was going to get perfect for you, brother, is if you stood
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And so even if you showed up to church or to the poker night or whatever, and after a couple
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I'm supposed to have everything I want all the time.
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You're just, you're setting yourself up for failure.
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But if you recognize that everything you do has purpose because it's part of this long
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and infinite journey toward your ultimate, you know, self-actualization or whatever term
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you want to put on it, but for you to become what it is that you were meant to become, like
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if you recognize that and you can kind of, I hate the term, but lean into that, man, like
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your life becomes infinitely better because you realize you're playing a long game.
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You're playing a very different game than other people are playing.
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And that's what I think is the great thing about F3 and really art of manliness and a lot
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of the things that are out there that we're doing is because it isn't a finite thing.
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Everything that you see and encounter is a tool to help you on this journey and to make
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And I think people forget that and they think, well, I didn't win after the third time.
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I want to go where I feel good and happy and get my dopamine hit all the time.
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No, I've seen that in my experience with different groups, whether it's at church or even just
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friend groups, or we even see this on The Strenuous Life within our geographic groups.
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I think some guys, they go into these, you know, like, oh man, here's a group of guys
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And then I think they have what's called, my wife, she wrote this great series on our
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news, our sub stack, Dying Breed, about Dietrich Bonhoeffer's ideas on how to live in a spiritual
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And Bonhoeffer talked about one problem he sees is that a lot of people have like, he calls
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it the wish dream of community, like this idealized version of what it should be.
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And then once they actually encounter the reality of it, it doesn't meet that.
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I'm not getting what I thought I'd get out of this.
00:24:40.960
And I've seen that in so many groups where people, I think they have like too high expectations
00:24:45.920
or they have this, you know, overly idealized version.
00:24:49.040
Like it's going to be like a Norman Rockwell painting.
00:24:51.160
Like everyone's just in the barbershop, you know, singing, playing the banjo.
00:24:55.260
And it's this community and community can be that, but it's also, you have to deal with
00:25:01.900
And it's like, I tell people, like, if you want community, you have to want all of it.
00:25:05.640
You have to want the good stuff and also the frustrating parts of it as well.
00:25:10.700
I mean, preach as they would say, because that's exactly it.
00:25:14.200
We've been taught to think, and I don't know, maybe this existed before.
00:25:17.800
We just didn't know because it wasn't as prevalent.
00:25:20.320
It wasn't in our face like it is now with social media, but certainly social media has
00:25:24.020
made it so that, you know, we look around and I look around and we go, well, but they're
00:25:30.920
We think that only the good parts get to exist.
00:25:33.720
And if there's bad parts, it's because we did something wrong or the thing is wrong or
00:25:37.660
whatever, because the lie is that everything is, it's utopia all the time.
00:25:43.020
But the messy is what teaches you the things you need to know so that you can refine and
00:25:48.460
So when you show up to the whatever it is, or if you start the whatever it is, and I
00:25:52.980
can't tell you, Brent, and you probably did the same thing before AOM or Stringless Life
00:25:58.340
I've started, I don't even know how many things that have just, you know, gone out either in
00:26:03.020
a nice blaze of glory failure or a slow whimper into the, you know, death in the corner failure.
00:26:10.600
I've tried all kinds of crazy things to try and get done what I want to get done or to bring
00:26:16.520
And then I just look and go, well, it's kind of that Thomas Edison idea, right?
00:26:22.820
I invented what, you know, like 10,000 ways to not make a light bulb.
00:26:25.980
You know, I didn't discover the light bulb or whatever it was.
00:26:32.200
You know, I discovered lots of ways to do it wrong.
00:26:34.760
And then I've tried to practice on the other end, you know, how to maybe not do it so wrong
00:26:42.200
It's continual learning, Kaizen, whatever you want to call it.
00:26:45.880
Talking about your experiences forming communities.
00:26:48.160
Can it be intentionally engineered or does it have to be like random or serendipity?
00:26:56.320
I'm going to say, yeah, it's probably a mixture of both to some degree.
00:27:02.680
I don't like the word engineered just because I think it implies that there is some, something
00:27:09.660
Like I want my bridges engineered because I don't want them to break.
00:27:13.420
You know, we don't want a lot of failure when it comes to bridges.
00:27:16.520
So I don't mind failure when it comes to people because that's life.
00:27:22.080
And so I think, I think intentionally engineered, maybe not engineered, but does it have to be
00:27:30.080
Because if you just, I mean, it can't be complete chaos and just like hope for the best.
00:27:33.240
I think just like any good leader or any good leadership model, you've got to have a mission
00:27:41.600
What is it that we're trying to accomplish here?
00:27:44.020
And not just tasks, but what, again, going back to Cynic, what he might say is a just cause.
00:27:49.860
Like, what is that thing that we, you know, is much bigger than all of us that we're trying
00:27:55.100
And if we have a good sense of what that is, then we can be intentional toward that.
00:28:00.440
And then what you have to do, I think, is you have to allow for the chaos around you,
00:28:04.960
So you be intentional about the things that you, that are supposed to be controlled, which
00:28:09.700
is adherence to mission maybe, or, you know, enforcing standards, you know, when it comes
00:28:14.060
to like, Hey, you're not living the core principles or whatever.
00:28:16.720
But that's more of a, an arm around a guy and telling him and, you know, one-on-one
00:28:20.540
But then I think you have to allow for the chaos around you and the, the, you know, the,
00:28:26.040
the serendipitous accidents or whatever you want to call them.
00:28:29.800
If, if, and, you know, it's actually a good example in a way to harken back to the early
00:28:36.420
And I don't remember if it's been a while since I've listened to the original podcast
00:28:39.520
that you were talking about from 15 or 17, whatever it was, but, uh, the guy, you know,
00:28:43.580
the group that this sort of broke off from was a guy who wanted to control things.
00:28:50.480
He was the one leading every time, you know, stuff like that.
00:28:53.900
But what was recognized was if I let go of control and if I let go of the leadership and
00:29:00.800
if I simply teach others to lead rather than try and be the leader all the time, and if
00:29:06.360
I adapt to this, the circumstances that are in front of me and incorporate them, then I'll
00:29:14.160
If it had only gone the way that Dave and Tim and even myself, if I was only willing to
00:29:20.020
accept the things that I think are good ideas, we'd die.
00:29:25.920
I mean, I have some good ideas every once in a while, but that's why the other thing I
00:29:28.940
would, you know, people who are starting groups, don't do it by yourself.
00:29:34.020
You can be the person that has most of the vision or you might be the good organizer or
00:29:37.280
whatever, but by golly, you better find some people who have some complimentary skill sets
00:29:41.940
and mindsets and bring them in and you got to influence them and love them into buying
00:29:47.880
into the dream and the mission of what you're trying to get done.
00:29:50.720
Otherwise, I mean, cause you know, there's no way I could do this thing by myself.
00:29:53.900
And so I embrace the chaos because either A, I'll get stronger as a man or a leader or
00:30:00.020
B, I'll learn some stuff that will actually make the group much stronger or, you know,
00:30:04.820
there might be ideas that it's like, oh, well, that actually is a whole different direction.
00:30:07.920
We might take things that we hadn't thought of before.
00:30:10.280
If it was up to me, if it was just up to my vision or our, you know, initial thoughts,
00:30:19.360
I'm curious if you've seen this problem in groups or in F3, because I've seen it in groups
00:30:27.020
You think they're all joining for the same reason, but oftentimes they're not.
00:30:32.960
Like some guys just, they just want the workout.
00:30:38.780
I've seen this in, you know, other groups I belong to where you think, oh, you're here
00:30:44.440
And then you see them like getting really persnickety about another issue.
00:30:48.840
It's like, oh, actually you're not here for that thing.
00:30:52.060
So how do you balance competing ends in a group?
00:30:56.660
Well, I often say if it was easy, we wouldn't need leaders.
00:30:59.320
You got to recognize that anytime you do one thing, you're going to get dynamically more
00:31:06.880
And so there is always this eternal tension in leadership of figuring out, well, you know,
00:31:14.420
So I say one thing I would say is, yes, everyone joins a group for their own reason, but they
00:31:23.980
And I think ultimately for a successful group, I think they have to stay for the mission.
00:31:29.240
If they're dedicated to the mission, if they see those things and if they've experienced
00:31:33.520
something in that group where they go, no, no, but I understand what we're really trying
00:31:38.900
Then you can look past a lot of the other stuff.
00:31:41.260
Dave introduced me to something he called the Augustinian code, although apparently it's
00:31:45.420
dubious as to whether or not St. Augustine actually said it.
00:31:56.640
And so I think, you know, you have a desire and a dedication and a focus on a mission and
00:32:05.380
then a guy joins for whatever reason he joins for.
00:32:07.460
But I think he stays because he says, no, I understand that this stuff that is greater
00:32:12.180
than me, these things that are bigger than me, those are things that I serve.
00:32:17.360
And then he stays because he wants the same thing we want, which is in our case, you know,
00:32:22.100
to help build leaders and to unlock men's hearts and minds so that they can be maximally
00:32:27.160
effective in their areas of influence, whatever that might be.
00:32:31.240
I think the key there is just communicate the mission constantly.
00:32:36.060
And if you think you've communicated enough, you probably haven't.
00:32:39.040
So in a traditional leadership setting to like a company or even a church, there's typically
00:32:43.180
a clear hierarchy, like the president, vice presidents, et cetera.
00:32:49.700
So what does leadership look like in a decentralized volunteer community like F3?
00:32:55.380
Because I'm sure there's lessons we can take from F3 to any other voluntary group that you
00:33:03.400
In fact, we would like you to take it to the non-voluntary groups that you belong to as
00:33:07.120
Because I think there's things that we can teach about leadership that are definitely
00:33:10.560
applicable in every area of life, even those that are non-voluntary.
00:33:13.580
But to your point, I think the number one thing to remember is you said, you know, what
00:33:21.160
That's what it looks like to have no leader, you know, set person that you're like, well,
00:33:25.880
he just told me, I guess I have to do it is messy.
00:33:28.320
And it's funny because this is something that came up early on.
00:33:30.780
And my sort of serving at the national level in F3 was, you know, one of the guys got really
00:33:36.220
frustrated and he was like, what are the men thinking?
00:33:38.900
Why can't they just do the thing that I want them to do?
00:33:41.940
And I had to say, I was like, well, I think they think that they're afraid to lead.
00:33:49.480
And then when they do the thing, you know, they're turning around trying to lead, like
00:33:53.800
But I think that we want you to recognize in a decentralized situation that every person
00:34:00.920
ultimately is responsible for the outcome of their own lives.
00:34:05.960
And so if they're leading a workout that day, yeah, they might be responsible for the
00:34:12.000
And they may have sort of positions or kind of different areas of responsibility or something
00:34:20.040
I have a different job, I guess, technically than maybe some others.
00:34:23.480
But ultimately, it isn't that one job is more important than another.
00:34:28.620
It's understanding that, A, if I called the guys in Tulsa and said, hey, you're going to
00:34:37.880
I mean, when they stopped laughing, we could probably have a discussion about it, right?
00:34:43.660
I don't have any, I can't tell anyone what to do.
00:34:52.780
Number two, they understand now that they're the ones with the responsibility.
00:34:56.900
And coming from me, it would be comical because they ask me questions all the time.
00:35:01.920
You know, guys ask questions like, well, how old should a kid be before we let him come
00:35:11.640
But ultimately, you have to make that decision.
00:35:15.760
And I know that frustrates you, but that's just the way that it is, right?
00:35:23.020
My job is to stand and to help you discover the right answer.
00:35:26.900
What is the answer that you already know or that you have in your heart?
00:35:29.660
Or what is the answer that aligns most with the mission that we theoretically all believe
00:35:35.080
And so I think it looks messy, but it also looks like just a lot of love, a lot of influence.
00:35:40.400
I don't remember how many times I've not answered a question to a guy, but suddenly at the end
00:35:44.340
of our conversation, he seems to know what to do.
00:35:46.560
No, I've had that experience too with The Strenuous Life.
00:35:48.900
I'll get questions from guys like, well, does this count for this requirement?
00:35:58.680
And we have this guiding principle in The Strenuous Life.
00:36:01.460
I'm sure Strenuous Life listeners know what I'm about to say.
00:36:04.120
Phronesis, which comes from the Greek, ancient Greeks.
00:36:09.140
It's like knowing what the right thing to do for the right reason, the right time, for
00:36:14.780
And I just tell people, use your phronesis, man.
00:36:20.080
And a lot of guys, they get frustrated with that because they just want to be told exactly
00:36:24.900
I want you to develop this capacity to make decisions and use your judgment.
00:36:32.320
I think that fundamentally, and this is something that I think is so critical to leadership
00:36:37.720
of any kind, certainly of any small group, and very, very certainly of any sort of volunteer
00:36:42.900
type organization, like what we're doing out here.
00:36:45.860
You know, it's a different one when you got a boss and a boss can just tell you what to
00:36:48.920
do or they can threaten you to get fired or whatever, right?
00:36:53.400
And so if you're going to be in real leadership, I think the thing that we, another thing that
00:36:57.920
we forget amongst the many is that this is a love endeavor.
00:37:03.840
And our world has taught us that if I love you, that I will kind of plow the road ahead
00:37:11.000
of you and you never have to worry about anything.
00:37:13.040
I will accept you exactly as you are and I will let you do whatever you want because
00:37:20.020
And permissiveness actually is its own kind of sin in my estimation.
00:37:23.240
And so I think that what you're talking about there, that's real love.
00:37:27.720
Real love is loving you enough to let you fail.
00:37:30.860
It's loving you enough to let you figure it out and struggle through it and make your
00:37:36.160
Dude, if I could just tell my kids exactly what to do and have them do it, my life would
00:37:45.400
It is messy and horrifying, you know, that I, I send them on their way and I'm like, and
00:37:50.780
they come to me and they're like, dad, what should I do?
00:37:52.280
And I look at them and I go, you've been taught how to make decisions.
00:37:59.440
But that's how I answer the things to the guys in F3 too.
00:38:02.360
You know, they're like, well, what should we do?
00:38:03.880
I think you should, I think you should employ those tactics and those techniques that you've
00:38:08.100
learned along the way on how to make decisions.
00:38:09.660
And you should do that because I can't tell you and I should not tell you.
00:38:19.040
If I tell you it's what I think, if it goes wrong, then it's my fault.
00:38:22.640
If it goes right, then it was my success somehow.
00:38:27.900
So how should leaders of small groups of men, whether it's a church or you got a book
00:38:34.280
club or whatever, how should they define success?
00:38:43.960
Every group is going to have its own definition, I'm sure.
00:38:47.160
And so I would say success looks like adherence to whatever that mission is.
00:38:53.600
How about I answer it this way for F3, here's what I think success looks like.
00:38:58.260
And guys all over the country and even our board sometimes, and certainly from outside
00:39:03.420
organizations look and they're like, well, how are you measuring success?
00:39:09.760
It sounds like you probably have an opinion about that.
00:39:12.520
And they're like, well, you know, growth numbers, like how many men are in F3?
00:39:17.060
And I'm like, okay, but what if every guy in F3 is an idiot, but we have 500,000 of
00:39:25.020
And they're like, oh, I hadn't thought about that.
00:39:29.080
Okay, well, what if we have only 10 guys that, you know, in it, but they're really dedicated
00:39:49.080
Is I wore myself out in the service of the mission.
00:39:52.920
And I think success across the organization, for us anyway, is largely anecdotal.
00:39:58.980
It's the stories I hear about men saying, I recaptured my life.
00:40:05.820
We snatched our marriage from the jaws of divorce.
00:40:14.380
There's the individual results of quote unquote success.
00:40:17.820
I think you're going to have as many, you know, as there are individual guys.
00:40:22.740
So I think success for us is knowing that we did the best we could to adhere to the mission
00:40:32.220
Something that I've had to struggle with as a leader of different groups I belong to
00:40:37.000
is cultivating the patience that's often required to lead whenever it seems like things are just going slower than you want.
00:40:52.480
I struggle from a condition known as perpetual dissatisfaction.
00:41:07.720
I told, in fact, a guy, CEO of a very large fitness company just yesterday was like,
00:41:20.520
I say that to say I have tons of biases, Brett.
00:41:24.740
And I'm always going to be slightly dissatisfied.
00:41:27.920
Or I'm always going to think that it's not moving fast enough.
00:41:30.300
Or I'm always going to be unhappy with the result of something.
00:41:35.620
I'm not, it's not, don't get the impression that I walk around sad all the time going like,
00:41:43.500
So the advice that I would give to someone starting a thing or who's looking to lead
00:41:48.760
in any way, the way to cultivate that patience is to segment your life a little bit, right?
00:41:54.720
So exhibit patience where, in those environments where it's appropriate.
00:41:58.540
And then by golly, get yourself a mentor and get yourself a small group.
00:42:09.100
And those are the guys that hear the best and the worst and the hardest and the, you
00:42:15.320
And I unload it to those guys and they get to hear it.
00:42:18.060
And then they get to tell me that my head is in my rear end.
00:42:21.360
Or they get to tell me, you know, where I might be choosing poorly or where I might be choosing
00:42:34.740
The analogy I give a lot of times to guys is I go, all right, because they'll say in
00:42:39.040
their marriage, you know, something went wrong in their marriage and they're struggling.
00:42:43.300
And then they're trying to make good on it, but they can't seem to get their wife to forgive
00:42:47.920
them and to, you know, move forward or whatever.
00:42:51.580
You think of it like a seed that you put in the ground and you can put all the nutrients
00:42:56.620
you want in that soil and you can cover it up at the perfect depth and you can measure
00:43:01.240
the pH and the moisture content and you can make this thing just as optimal, the perfect
00:43:06.500
amount of sunshine, keep the temperature, whatever it is, right?
00:43:11.220
But that seed is going to sprout above the edge of that soil when it is darn good and
00:43:16.240
And the only thing you can do is to consistently try and create, you know, a perfect environment
00:43:23.840
or as optimal an environment as you possibly can.
00:43:26.020
Now, that's your job as the leader in the group or in the organization or whatever it
00:43:31.860
That's your job is to consistently try and create optimal conditions so that when growth
00:43:39.240
So again, we get our minds caught in this finite game of, well, but I didn't get this
00:43:46.280
And so it must be not going well, or it must be a failure or any number of things, right?
00:43:51.160
And I just say, nah, man, again, I think you're just, you're playing the wrong game as a leader,
00:43:58.660
But I think as a leader in general, it only serves us to remember that this is an infinite
00:44:12.760
I can do what I can to maintain an optimal environment.
00:44:15.100
And then when that seed is ready, it'll come up.
00:44:17.860
Well, Frank, this has been a great conversation.
00:44:21.480
Just go outside and whether you see some crazy guys in a parking lot somewhere barking in
00:44:30.440
There's a place like, if you've never heard of F3 before and you think to yourself, man,
00:44:37.060
You'll see a link in there up at the top that says locations.
00:44:40.480
I think it's under like new or get started or something.
00:44:43.440
But you find, find the map, find the locations, find one near you and men just show up, just show
00:44:53.640
But yeah, go someplace, just find one near you and show up and you can read all about
00:45:07.240
You can find more information about F3 at f3nation.com.
00:45:10.080
Also, check out our show notes at awim.is slash men's groups.
00:45:13.580
We'll find links to resources where we delve deeper into this topic.
00:45:23.320
Well, that wraps up another edition of the AWIM podcast.
00:45:26.100
Make sure to check out our website at artofmanly.com where you'll find our podcast archives and make
00:45:36.060
As always, thank you for the continued support.
00:45:40.180
Remind you to listen to the AWIM podcast with Put What You've Heard into Action.