The Art of Manliness - Building Tribe — How to Create and Sustain Communities of Men

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.680 Community is one of life's most valuable, but increasingly scarce resources.

00:00:15.740 While we hear about a supposed epidemic of male loneliness, many men still resist joining

00:00:20.000 groups or struggle to maintain involvement after initial enthusiasm wanes.

00:00:24.300 Staying in the show, Frank Shorts will help us understand the barriers to building male

00:00:27.400 community and how to overcome them.

00:00:29.240 Frank is the CEO of F3, a free, all-volunteer men's leadership organization that uses workouts

00:00:35.020 to bring men together and supports hundreds of decentralized chapters worldwide.

00:00:38.960 In the first half of our conversation, Frank explains the psychology behind men's hesitation

00:00:42.720 to join groups, how to navigate the wish stream of idealized community, and why expecting

00:00:47.360 perfection kills participation.

00:00:49.680 We then discuss what makes leadership in a decentralized group different from traditional

00:00:53.120 hierarchies, the importance of embracing messiness, and why allowing men to make their own decisions

00:00:58.100 create stronger leaders than giving them a rulebook to follow.

00:01:01.460 We enter a conversation with Frank's perspective on cultivating patience as a leader and how

00:01:05.320 to measure success when building a community of men.

00:01:08.140 After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash men's groups.

00:01:11.680 Frank Shorts, welcome to the show.

00:01:27.840 Hey, thanks so much for having me, man.

00:01:29.420 I appreciate it.

00:01:30.060 So you are, is it the CEO or president of F3?

00:01:33.120 This is a very good question.

00:01:35.540 And up until a couple of years ago, I could have said president, but now CEO, we kind of

00:01:40.380 eliminated the president position.

00:01:42.600 And the thing about F3 is, and guys who are familiar know, but those who aren't, everything's

00:01:48.020 kind of very made up.

00:01:49.640 So we have sort of different names for what we do that are a little bit kind of, you know,

00:01:53.620 inside baseball.

00:01:54.420 And so, yes, CEO on paper, but the official title within F3 is Nantan, which is an Apache

00:02:02.260 word, kind of meaning a cultural and spiritual leader.

00:02:05.440 All right.

00:02:05.640 So you're the CEO of F3.

00:02:07.540 We've had the guys who started F3 on the podcast.

00:02:10.180 This was back in 2017, episode number 324.

00:02:13.460 And we'll link to that in show notes.

00:02:14.880 But for those who aren't familiar, what is F3?

00:02:17.800 So F3 is a free men's leadership group that uses workouts to trick you into coming out

00:02:25.980 so we can teach you about leadership.

00:02:27.260 That's really what it is.

00:02:28.080 But essentially, it is a men's workout group.

00:02:31.200 Our stated mission is to plant, to grow, and to serve small workout groups for men in order

00:02:36.620 to invigorate male community leadership.

00:02:38.720 The founders, as you mentioned, Dave Redding, Tim Whitmire, Dredd, and OBT, affectionately known

00:02:43.460 within F3, kind of looked around and said, hey, we see a lot of guys at church and other

00:02:48.900 civic organizations and at work and whatever, a lot of guys just standing around with their

00:02:53.020 hands in their pockets and nobody doing anything about the world around them and influencing

00:02:59.120 their community.

00:02:59.800 And there's just not a lot of leading happening.

00:03:02.200 And Dave, with his special forces background, said, hey, you know, the place I learned the

00:03:07.320 most about leadership and the way I think we could spread leadership throughout our communities

00:03:12.220 and in our world is via training, physical training.

00:03:16.940 It's a great place, you know, pretty low risk to do that.

00:03:20.380 And that wasn't the intention when it started, which, you know, again, you probably go back

00:03:23.760 and listen and hear it, but it wasn't the intention when it started, but it is kind of

00:03:26.740 where it ended up.

00:03:27.380 So the short answer to that very long answer I gave is it's a place where men can come

00:03:31.940 into community with one another and get physically fit and learn leadership.

00:03:35.700 And again, it's all free.

00:03:36.900 I mean, you can go to the F3 website and you can find, there's like chapters all over the

00:03:41.680 world at this point.

00:03:42.800 How many chapters are there at this point?

00:03:45.360 Ooh, I should have had that much more readily available on the tip of my tongue.

00:03:49.020 I think it's about 450, maybe just shy of 450.

00:03:53.920 Okay.

00:03:54.480 And so typically the workouts are early in the morning before work and it's a bootcamp style

00:03:59.200 workout, calisthenics, things like that.

00:04:02.240 Yeah.

00:04:02.440 Typically body weight, although some places, you know, there's kettlebells or sandbags and

00:04:06.720 some of that kind of stuff that guys use.

00:04:08.420 But yeah, typically, you know, if you sort of shot at the middle of the curve on an F3

00:04:12.700 workout, it's going to happen about 515, 530, sometimes a little earlier, sometimes a

00:04:16.980 little later.

00:04:17.680 And it's going to be a lot of body weight and calisthenic type, you know, some running

00:04:21.040 pushups, sit-ups, pull-ups, and then really, you know, a lot of whatever we can find.

00:04:26.020 Yeah.

00:04:26.260 So you do the workout and then there's also a fellowship aspect to it, a leadership aspect

00:04:31.400 to this.

00:04:32.260 Tell us more about that leadership component.

00:04:33.540 Because again, the workout is the hook, you know, that's like the Trojan horse for that

00:04:39.180 other stuff.

00:04:40.000 It's just the way we sneakily trick you into coming because, you know, you go, Hey, free

00:04:43.900 workout.

00:04:44.260 And the guy goes, I could try that.

00:04:45.560 I mean, what's the problem?

00:04:46.640 So the three Fs are fitness, fellowship, and faith.

00:04:50.420 And really, you know, we don't have a program per se, but if you were to, again, if you were

00:04:55.220 to kind of shoot at the middle and go, well, what's typical, right?

00:04:58.420 Guys get together early in the morning and work out together.

00:05:00.940 It's pretty strenuous, pretty vigorous workout, generally speaking.

00:05:04.120 And then we get together for what we call a confiteria afterward.

00:05:07.900 You hang out, you make friends, and you get deeper in fellowship with one another because,

00:05:12.940 and you know this probably as well or better than most anyone, community is really where

00:05:17.460 we're going to save the country, where we're going to do our best work is in community with

00:05:20.600 one another.

00:05:21.320 So we put men in community with one another.

00:05:23.100 And then what happens inevitably once you do that is guys start looking at their lives and

00:05:27.960 go, well, now that I've got these things more or less squared away, right?

00:05:31.040 I've lost some weight.

00:05:31.920 I've got some friends.

00:05:33.200 Well, now what?

00:05:33.740 What am I supposed to do now?

00:05:34.880 And they start looking outside themselves now that they are more settled.

00:05:38.600 They start looking outside themselves and saying, well, what can I do for others?

00:05:42.080 And that's the big question of faith.

00:05:43.520 What is it that exists outside yourself?

00:05:45.740 And how can you live in such a way that you can kind of wear yourself out in the service

00:05:50.200 of that thing?

00:05:51.200 So we don't make any kind of determination about, well, a guy ought to believe in Jesus

00:05:55.500 Christ or a guy ought to believe in Buddha or a guy ought to believe in whatever.

00:05:59.320 We just say, you got to believe in something bigger than yourself in order to be a virtuous

00:06:02.560 leader.

00:06:03.320 And that's what we do.

00:06:04.440 And so a lot of times in those meetings after workouts, guys will study.

00:06:08.120 They might study certain kinds of books, you know, whatever.

00:06:10.980 We have a book that Dave wrote, Dred wrote called The Q Source.

00:06:14.740 And it sort of outlines our overall leadership philosophy and framework.

00:06:19.520 And so guys will study that together and we'll discuss that together.

00:06:22.380 We've got podcasts about it and all kinds of stuff.

00:06:23.920 But so I wouldn't say there's like a super formal program, but we do have what we call

00:06:29.220 stuff worth trying.

00:06:30.740 And so you kind of get in there and you're like, oh, hey, I don't know if this will work

00:06:33.960 for you or not, but here's the framework.

00:06:35.380 Well, maybe try it until you find something better.

00:06:37.560 So, but that's the idea is to create leaders amongst men and to take those things that we learn

00:06:43.320 in what we call the gloom, which is that, you know, those pre-dawn hours when your family's

00:06:47.620 sleeping and, you know, work hasn't started calling yet, those things that we learn there

00:06:51.600 and take them home, take them to the community so we can be better people.

00:06:54.760 And the leadership structure of F3 is unique.

00:06:57.280 It's decentralized.

00:06:58.300 Tell us more about that, how that works.

00:07:00.260 Absolutely.

00:07:00.920 So, and this is, you know, conceptually, I think Dave and Tim early on were like, you

00:07:06.100 know, we can't lead everywhere.

00:07:08.360 We can't be everywhere.

00:07:09.520 And if really what we're called to do is to create leaders, then we're going to have

00:07:12.540 to hand off the power here, you know, as time goes on.

00:07:15.460 And so the idea is that, you know, if you start making rules, then you have to make more

00:07:20.980 rules to enforce those rules.

00:07:22.460 And it kind of becomes this big spiraling thing.

00:07:24.280 And then pretty soon you got 5,000 page bills getting introduced into Congress, right?

00:07:28.560 So we live by a mission, a credo and five core principles.

00:07:32.480 And the idea is that every man has been born and put on this earth to be a leader.

00:07:38.020 That is his job.

00:07:39.540 That is what he has been created to do.

00:07:41.920 And so what we try and do is help guys to recapture that.

00:07:45.160 We want men to lean into that part of themselves and to figure out how to, to not just lead

00:07:52.540 a workout well, or, or to even manage something well, but to truly influence others for good

00:07:58.480 in every place that they're in.

00:08:00.620 Okay.

00:08:01.080 And so it's, it's all volunteer.

00:08:02.160 I feel like I didn't answer the question very well.

00:08:03.660 No.

00:08:03.940 Cause, oh, right, right.

00:08:04.800 We were sort of decentralized it, right?

00:08:06.340 So since every man is a, is, you know, is a leader, we say, okay, then I can't be in

00:08:11.700 charge of where you are because Brett, where you're in Tulsa, right?

00:08:14.840 Correct.

00:08:15.800 Yeah.

00:08:16.360 So I don't know what's happening in Tulsa.

00:08:18.640 I can't tell you what to do in Tulsa.

00:08:20.760 I don't have any idea of what the right thing to do will be where you are.

00:08:23.700 So I have to teach you how to lead and give you the power and, and, and, you know, the

00:08:28.780 empowerment, I guess, really to say, Hey, you make those decisions.

00:08:32.420 I think that honestly, not to put too fine a point on it, but like, that's been one of

00:08:36.380 the best things I learned for myself from F3 is that I don't need permission to be a

00:08:40.320 man.

00:08:41.000 I don't need permission to be a leader.

00:08:43.340 I think that's a, you know, that's something that I think men and maybe people in general

00:08:47.140 kind of crave in our world anymore is we, we want someone else to tell us what to do.

00:08:51.220 I don't know whether it's because we just don't want to make the decision or because,

00:08:54.500 you know, we want it to be their fault if it doesn't go well or, you know, something,

00:08:58.120 I don't know, but we don't seem to want to take the personal responsibility.

00:09:01.380 And F3 teaches us that there isn't anybody else responsible, but you.

00:09:05.580 And you're the CEO, but again, this, this is volunteer.

00:09:08.040 You're not paid to be the CEO.

00:09:09.720 No, this is all volunteer.

00:09:11.100 No salary here.

00:09:11.760 Yeah.

00:09:12.220 Yeah.

00:09:12.640 Well, tell us about your experience with F3.

00:09:14.600 When did you join and why did you join?

00:09:17.040 So I joined in late 2014.

00:09:19.720 And the reason I joined is because I was overweight and I had sleep apnea.

00:09:25.480 I had high blood pressure.

00:09:27.340 I had high cholesterol.

00:09:28.680 And my doctor was like, Hey, guess what?

00:09:30.500 You're a stroke waiting to happen.

00:09:32.500 So I've got to get you healthy somehow.

00:09:35.500 We want you to live for your young kids. 0.55

00:09:37.940 And I can, I'll send you the picture.

00:09:39.640 You'll love it.

00:09:40.520 But essentially I was like, well, I got to get in shape somehow.

00:09:42.900 So I started going to the gym, but I kept hearing about this F3 thing, kept hearing 1.00

00:09:45.400 about it, kept hearing about it, kept hearing about it.

00:09:46.840 And finally I was like, fine, I'll just go.

00:09:50.500 And so I showed up one Saturday and I was hooked.

00:09:53.820 I mean, I was absolutely hooked.

00:09:55.180 There was just something very magical about the fact that it's always outdoors no matter

00:09:59.820 what.

00:10:00.120 It was freezing cold.

00:10:01.400 I mean, like horrifyingly cold because it was November when I went out for my first one

00:10:06.380 on a Saturday.

00:10:07.400 And there was just something invigorating about like we're outside in the elements.

00:10:11.580 And then at the end of every F3 workout, we have something called a COT or a circle of

00:10:16.100 trust.

00:10:17.120 And it's a place for men to kind of lay down their burdens next to their brothers where

00:10:21.580 we can pick it up together.

00:10:22.700 The old saying, a burden shared is half a burden, a joy shared is twice the joy, something

00:10:26.700 along those lines.

00:10:27.720 And so it's a place where you can kind of lay down your burden and say, hey, help.

00:10:31.160 You know, and I've heard everything in those things, but there was something about that

00:10:33.860 end piece, laying my hand on another guy because you get in kind of a big circle and you

00:10:38.120 kind of huddle up and then feeling that energy from other men who were in the same spot I

00:10:43.240 was trying to figure this out together.

00:10:45.260 It was just magical.

00:10:46.340 It was magical.

00:10:46.920 So I kind of jumped all in, you know, both feet and ended up finding myself in just weird

00:10:52.980 coincidental places.

00:10:55.080 If you're a believer in coincidence, then it was coincidental.

00:10:57.480 For me, it was providential.

00:10:58.660 And I just would find myself bumping into the right kind of people and, you know, just volunteering

00:11:02.400 and jumping into say, yeah, no, I can help with that or, you know, whatever it might

00:11:05.540 be around sort of the F3 universe.

00:11:07.120 And then pretty soon, you know, became really good friends with Dred, Dave Redding, and we

00:11:12.760 kind of figured out how we're going to do this together.

00:11:15.720 So, you know, there was a guy he handed it off to, and then that guy, you know, stepped

00:11:20.160 down and handed it off to me, and that's the way it'll always go forever.

00:11:23.180 And I think, you know, kind of to touch on both things, how I got involved and why I got

00:11:26.920 involved is, A, how it was almost by accident and how I became the leader of this whole deal,

00:11:33.000 I think also was almost, you know, again, coincidence or however you want to look at it, but almost

00:11:36.360 by accident.

00:11:36.820 We're just sort of right place, right time, and I think God put me where he wanted me

00:11:40.620 to be.

00:11:41.060 But I think that the nice thing, or maybe the nice thing, but the beautiful thing about

00:11:45.580 this is that I will serve for a period of time, and then I will have accomplished what

00:11:51.940 I need to, and I'll hand it off to somebody else.

00:11:54.500 And so to kind of harken back to the how do you decentralize this thing is, first thing

00:11:58.320 you have is a mission.

00:11:59.540 Second thing you have is no ego.

00:12:00.660 I can't lead.

00:12:02.280 The mission must lead.

00:12:03.780 The mission must take us to the next level.

00:12:05.660 The mission must take us where we want to go.

00:12:07.700 I'll help make decisions along the way to support that mission or to move us forward

00:12:12.140 toward that mission.

00:12:13.380 But ultimately, that's how we decentralize it, right?

00:12:15.600 Is we only commit ourselves to these very few things.

00:12:18.240 We don't try and run an organization.

00:12:20.080 We try and keep a mission in men's hearts, and they'll run the organization.

00:12:23.280 They'll figure it out where they are.

00:12:24.680 You know, you guys will figure it out there in Tulsa.

00:12:27.340 I'm curious, like how, I mean, your life has obviously changed because of your involvement

00:12:31.300 with F3, but how have you seen like other men's lives change during your involvement

00:12:36.180 with F3?

00:12:37.340 Sure.

00:12:38.000 There's easy ways that, you know, like obvious ways.

00:12:41.760 Guys lose weight.

00:12:42.600 They get a little more fit.

00:12:43.580 They start looking better in the mirror.

00:12:44.720 Their health gets better.

00:12:45.540 Their mindset gets better.

00:12:47.180 That's the easy stuff.

00:12:48.440 We have seen things in F3 where, look, and one of our core principles is that it's open

00:12:55.280 to all men, no matter what.

00:12:56.940 So number one is it's always free, as you mentioned.

00:12:58.980 Number two is that it's open to all men.

00:13:00.640 And when we say all men, we absolutely mean it, right? 0.96

00:13:03.840 And so we have convicted felons working out next to billionaires in the same workout.

00:13:08.560 You'd never know.

00:13:09.640 You'd never know.

00:13:10.500 And so the way that this changes men or the things that it does is it turns a light on

00:13:15.260 in their hearts again because it doesn't matter what your lifestyle has been or will

00:13:19.380 be.

00:13:19.760 It doesn't matter where you've been, where you came from.

00:13:22.400 What matters is that you're a man.

00:13:23.960 When you are a man, you have this need inside you.

00:13:28.740 You have this desire inside you.

00:13:30.800 And the world has a tendency to try and figure out a way to quiet that spark down, right?

00:13:35.860 You know, to get that drive tamped down so that we can control you and we can make sure

00:13:40.360 that you become non-dangerous, you know, to the things that we're trying to do.

00:13:43.940 So F3 kind of wakes you up.

00:13:45.980 And so we hear stories of, you know, guys who beat alcoholism.

00:13:49.160 We've saved marriages, you know, and guys attributed to F3 and, you know, people who 0.89

00:13:53.620 have, you know, who have been steeped in addiction who have come out of it because they say, hey,

00:13:59.200 you know, being around you guys has made me realize I got to do better in my life and

00:14:02.680 turn their lives around, right?

00:14:04.040 So it's almost innumerable, the number of stories that we could tell that are out there

00:14:09.100 in guys that in a very acute way, I changed my life today.

00:14:13.700 That's almost innumerable.

00:14:15.300 Probably in some ways for every single guy, however many there are, we estimate something

00:14:19.620 like 75, 80,000 guys, right?

00:14:21.560 So there's 80,000 different stories that we could tell of how it impacted a man's life

00:14:25.500 and made his life better.

00:14:26.860 That's awesome.

00:14:27.160 So I wanted to bring you on the podcast today to talk about leading groups, like leading

00:14:34.780 men's groups, or even just forming a group of guys who, you know, you're trying to get

00:14:38.940 some friends going.

00:14:40.260 So I know a lot of our listeners, that's something that they've been trying to do that they struggle

00:14:44.200 with and they run into these issues and they just feel like it's impossible.

00:14:47.600 And so I want to tap into your expertise with your experience, establishing the culture in

00:14:51.900 F3 of where guys get together.

00:14:53.680 And then you also have other leadership experience as well.

00:14:55.900 And, you know, maybe you can find some insights that F3, from F3 that we can apply to other

00:15:00.820 domains of our lives.

00:15:01.980 I think you can.

00:15:03.160 So the first question is, you know, you hear a lot about the male loneliness crisis.

00:15:07.840 Men today, they seem incredibly lonely.

00:15:10.640 They're looking for friends, but at the same time, men, they seem resistant to joining a community

00:15:16.900 group or even getting things going with another guy just to hang out.

00:15:22.080 What do you think is going on there?

00:15:23.020 What is, what's the tension going on there?

00:15:25.640 What do you think's behind that?

00:15:27.560 I tell you, I know, here's what I think, and I could be wrong, but I think that the hesitancy

00:15:32.960 on the part of men to do this kind of thing is, well, a number of things.

00:15:38.380 One is fear.

00:15:40.800 Terrifying.

00:15:41.640 He's afraid to fail.

00:15:43.340 He's afraid to fail.

00:15:44.220 He's afraid to have people criticize him.

00:15:46.780 He's afraid to say, I'm making a stand because that's not an easy thing to do.

00:15:50.780 And I think guys are afraid of that.

00:15:52.240 And I don't blame them. 1.00

00:15:53.220 It ain't fun, you know, to have other people be like, you suck. 0.99

00:15:57.440 So I think there's some of that. 0.99

00:15:58.400 I think there's some fear and some trepidation around doing that kind of thing.

00:16:01.220 But I think also, it's kind of like we were alluding to before.

00:16:04.660 The thing that I think keeps guys from doing this is they really believe that there has

00:16:08.620 to be some, that there's some right way to do it that they've been just kept out of the

00:16:12.800 loop.

00:16:13.620 You know, they just don't get to know what that right way is.

00:16:15.500 And other people seem to be doing it just fine.

00:16:17.320 But gosh, you know, why won't anyone write the book so I can just follow the program?

00:16:21.320 Well, the problem is there's no program.

00:16:22.940 And if you believe there's a program, that just means you're following somebody else's dream.

00:16:25.800 You're following somebody else's way of doing it.

00:16:27.520 And so I think that, you know, to some degree, it's like, you know, why won't a guy do this?

00:16:33.000 Well, because he thinks there's a right way to do it and he's afraid to fail.

00:16:36.380 I think that's a lot of it.

00:16:37.780 And I think guys get lonely because they have been convinced that somehow that that's what

00:16:44.620 they are and that that's the epidemic.

00:16:46.740 And so we just believe it.

00:16:47.680 We're like, well, I guess we're lonely.

00:16:49.440 You know, if they say so, I guess we're lonely.

00:16:50.900 They're the ones doing the research.

00:16:52.440 Or maybe sometimes I think too, they're like, you know, I'm afraid of putting myself out there.

00:16:56.300 I don't really want to get hurt.

00:16:57.200 I don't really want to whatever.

00:16:58.460 I don't want to lead.

00:16:59.420 I don't want to have to take on all that responsibility and all that kind of stuff.

00:17:02.780 But I also think that one of the things that keeps a guy from feeling that connection or

00:17:08.500 wanting that, you know, or whatever it might be, or to start a group like this is he just

00:17:12.860 thinks that, again, since he thinks there's some way to do it right, that he shouldn't

00:17:17.440 start until he knows that exact way.

00:17:19.640 When the fact of the matter is, and again, you know this probably as well or better than anyone,

00:17:24.160 is you won't know until you get out there and start.

00:17:27.700 Right.

00:17:28.540 You just got to start.

00:17:29.640 You just got to do something.

00:17:31.140 And I think the momentum will help carry you.

00:17:32.880 But this alleged epidemic of loneliness, and I do think it exists.

00:17:36.760 I think that people do feel lonely.

00:17:38.800 I think it gets solved by doing things, you know, by being out there and being with people.

00:17:44.200 So, yeah, I mean, I think you hear people talk about a lot like, oh, well, we no longer

00:17:48.640 have any third places anymore to go to, et cetera.

00:17:51.960 And it's like, well, you can make a third place, like find a park and do a workout.

00:17:55.680 Like nothing's stopping you from doing that.

00:17:57.900 Nothing.

00:17:58.620 You know, it's funny.

00:17:59.640 And I don't know, not that you and I frequent Starbucks is a whole lot necessarily, but

00:18:03.600 I love that the new CEO brought mugs back.

00:18:07.300 Yeah.

00:18:07.980 Right?

00:18:08.680 Yeah.

00:18:08.980 I don't know if he has the intention of turning it back into more of a gathering place or a

00:18:13.280 third place or whatever you want to call it.

00:18:15.020 I don't know.

00:18:15.840 But nothing says get out of here like a paper cup with a sleeve, you know, that they shove

00:18:21.200 at the end of a counter and they just yell your name.

00:18:23.640 You know, they don't want you to stay.

00:18:25.000 They want you to get out.

00:18:25.680 They got to turn tables, man, because they got money to make, because they got investors

00:18:28.540 and shareholders to answer to.

00:18:30.620 And so you don't have to wait for Starbucks to create a third place for you.

00:18:33.460 Although I do see it starting to trend more, maybe back that way.

00:18:36.200 You don't have to wait for church and you and I both know, like, theoretically, that

00:18:40.740 should be a great third place to do that.

00:18:43.380 It doesn't end up that way sometimes.

00:18:46.380 And so sometimes you just have to take matters into your own hands.

00:18:49.160 I was telling somebody this morning, actually, men look around, people look around a lot and

00:18:53.760 go, somebody ought to do something about that.

00:18:57.100 The thing that we teach and that we talk about a ton in F3 for sure is, hey, if you think

00:19:02.900 that thought, the instant you think that thought, the next thought ought to be looking in the

00:19:07.180 mirror and going, wait, I just remembered I'm that somebody.

00:19:10.740 Yeah, totally agree.

00:19:11.680 It's that whole Tocquevillian ethos.

00:19:14.440 Alexis de Tocqueville talked about in Democracy in America, talked about, you know, when he

00:19:18.100 came to America, he noticed how Americans at the time, if there was like a tree in the

00:19:22.900 middle of a road, they would just form a group together and solve it.

00:19:27.000 They wouldn't wait around.

00:19:27.840 He said, well, in Europe, they would like, wait, okay, which, like, who are we supposed to

00:19:31.220 go to to get this thing?

00:19:32.160 Which government agency is going to fix this.

00:19:34.300 And I feel like we've kind of lost that.

00:19:36.640 We've kind of become like Europeans in the 19th century that Tocqueville was criticizing.

00:19:41.280 I think you're right.

00:19:42.500 I think you're right.

00:19:43.220 And I think that's why I'm so grateful that, well, I say I found F3, but I think F3 found

00:19:48.600 me to a large degree.

00:19:49.900 And I think that's the way it always goes, right?

00:19:51.140 If you want something good in your life, you'll either find this or it'll find you.

00:19:54.620 But that's been the best thing is it's like guys no longer, guys that I hang out

00:19:59.420 with anyway, we don't sit around going, somebody ought to do that.

00:20:02.560 It's done before anybody had the thought of whether or not it should get done because

00:20:06.480 we knew it should get done.

00:20:08.360 We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

00:20:13.060 And now back to the show.

00:20:15.420 Something I've seen in different organizations, whether it's like a sort of informal group

00:20:21.500 of individuals, like just guys trying to get together to do a workout together, like

00:20:25.680 a poker night once a month, or even more structured organizations, like at a church group, you'll

00:20:31.200 see this phenomenon, you'll get it going, and then you'll have guys who enthusiastically

00:20:35.800 show up once or twice, and then they just vanish.

00:20:40.320 And you're like, man, what happened?

00:20:41.580 What's going on?

00:20:42.200 So what do you think is going on there?

00:20:43.160 Is it a failure of unmet expectations or something else going on?

00:20:49.660 You know, I think it's a similar problem.

00:20:53.880 You know what January 19th is?

00:20:55.380 I think it's the 19th.

00:20:56.260 Yeah, it's like Quitter's Day or whatever.

00:20:57.900 Quitter's Day, right.

00:21:00.020 Exactly, right.

00:21:01.100 So I think some of it's that.

00:21:03.840 You know, like everybody starts with great intentions, but boy, when the rubber meets

00:21:06.760 the road and it starts to get hard, you know, I don't want to show up for that.

00:21:10.760 Someone's supposed to, I'm supposed to be entertained, Brent.

00:21:13.320 My phone taught me that.

00:21:14.860 I'm supposed to be a consumer.

00:21:16.800 The commercials, my YouTube pre-rolls taught me that.

00:21:19.780 I'm supposed to just eat and drink and be merry.

00:21:23.660 I'm not supposed to go do stuff.

00:21:25.540 I'm not supposed to be something.

00:21:27.360 And so I think guys show up, and it happens in F3, as you might imagine.

00:21:30.540 You know, some guys come out and they blaze out, and I always get nervous.

00:21:33.380 Like the guys who are just a little too enthusiastic.

00:21:37.120 And I want to be like, eh, you're going to need to save some for the fifth lap here,

00:21:40.900 biggin'.

00:21:41.520 You know, like you need to pump the brakes just a little bit because consistency is going

00:21:45.520 to beat energy every time.

00:21:48.520 Yeah.

00:21:48.740 Forever and ever.

00:21:49.520 Amen.

00:21:50.180 Right.

00:21:50.620 Simon Sinek talks about the infinite game.

00:21:52.860 I don't know if you read that one, but it's a fantastic book.

00:21:55.320 And essentially, you know, he kind of says, most of us run around with this sort of finite

00:21:59.040 mindset that there's winners and there's losers.

00:22:01.200 And there are in sports, you know, in places where there is a definite ending, a finite

00:22:07.200 time period or whatever it might be, but there's no winning in life.

00:22:11.640 It is not a race.

00:22:12.820 It never has been a race.

00:22:14.200 It's a journey that we're all on together, theoretically, right?

00:22:17.480 Or we should be.

00:22:18.880 And I think it's part of our culture where it's like, well, I showed up at the gym three

00:22:22.260 times.

00:22:22.600 I'm not in shape.

00:22:23.140 I can't figure this out.

00:22:23.820 I quit.

00:22:24.720 And you go, well, no, you have to show up for months and years.

00:22:28.260 And then you have to stay at it.

00:22:30.060 There's no arrival.

00:22:31.220 Again, it's this finite mindset of, well, you know, I thought after three times it was going

00:22:37.280 to be perfect for me.

00:22:38.200 And you go, well, the only way it was going to get perfect for you, brother, is if you stood

00:22:41.000 up and made it perfect for you.

00:22:43.340 You have to do it.

00:22:44.860 You have to be the one responsible.

00:22:46.500 You have to be the one involved.

00:22:48.560 And so even if you showed up to church or to the poker night or whatever, and after a couple

00:22:52.860 of times you were like, this was great.

00:22:54.440 Maybe something didn't go your way.

00:22:55.660 And you're like, well, screw that.

00:22:56.900 I'm supposed to have everything I want all the time.

00:22:59.120 Man, what a finite mindset.

00:23:00.960 You're just, you're setting yourself up for failure.

00:23:03.220 But if you recognize that everything you do has purpose because it's part of this long

00:23:09.480 and infinite journey toward your ultimate, you know, self-actualization or whatever term

00:23:14.860 you want to put on it, but for you to become what it is that you were meant to become, like

00:23:18.820 if you recognize that and you can kind of, I hate the term, but lean into that, man, like

00:23:24.980 your life becomes infinitely better because you realize you're playing a long game.

00:23:28.380 You're playing a very different game than other people are playing.

00:23:30.660 And that's what I think is the great thing about F3 and really art of manliness and a lot

00:23:33.980 of the things that are out there that we're doing is because it isn't a finite thing.

00:23:38.260 Everything that you see and encounter is a tool to help you on this journey and to make

00:23:43.240 you a better person as you go.

00:23:45.360 And I think people forget that and they think, well, I didn't win after the third time.

00:23:48.400 So I don't want to do that.

00:23:49.120 I want to go where I feel good and happy and get my dopamine hit all the time.

00:23:52.500 Yeah.

00:23:52.940 No, I've seen that in my experience with different groups, whether it's at church or even just

00:23:58.060 friend groups, or we even see this on The Strenuous Life within our geographic groups.

00:24:02.400 I think some guys, they go into these, you know, like, oh man, here's a group of guys

00:24:06.660 doing things.

00:24:07.560 I want to be part of this community.

00:24:09.520 And then I think they have what's called, my wife, she wrote this great series on our

00:24:14.400 news, our sub stack, Dying Breed, about Dietrich Bonhoeffer's ideas on how to live in a spiritual

00:24:18.980 community.

00:24:19.920 And Bonhoeffer talked about one problem he sees is that a lot of people have like, he calls

00:24:25.420 it the wish dream of community, like this idealized version of what it should be.

00:24:30.140 And then once they actually encounter the reality of it, it doesn't meet that. 0.97

00:24:35.020 And they're like, this sucks. 0.72

00:24:36.680 It's not as great. 0.91

00:24:37.900 I'm not getting what I thought I'd get out of this.

00:24:40.040 I'm out of here.

00:24:40.960 And I've seen that in so many groups where people, I think they have like too high expectations

00:24:45.920 or they have this, you know, overly idealized version.

00:24:49.040 Like it's going to be like a Norman Rockwell painting.

00:24:51.160 Like everyone's just in the barbershop, you know, singing, playing the banjo.

00:24:55.260 And it's this community and community can be that, but it's also, you have to deal with

00:24:59.620 just annoying people.

00:25:00.620 You have to deal with friction.

00:25:01.900 And it's like, I tell people, like, if you want community, you have to want all of it.

00:25:05.640 You have to want the good stuff and also the frustrating parts of it as well.

00:25:09.820 Oh man.

00:25:10.700 I mean, preach as they would say, because that's exactly it.

00:25:14.200 We've been taught to think, and I don't know, maybe this existed before.

00:25:17.800 We just didn't know because it wasn't as prevalent.

00:25:20.320 It wasn't in our face like it is now with social media, but certainly social media has

00:25:24.020 made it so that, you know, we look around and I look around and we go, well, but they're

00:25:29.160 in Italy again.

00:25:30.920 We think that only the good parts get to exist.

00:25:33.720 And if there's bad parts, it's because we did something wrong or the thing is wrong or

00:25:37.660 whatever, because the lie is that everything is, it's utopia all the time.

00:25:43.020 But the messy is what teaches you the things you need to know so that you can refine and

00:25:47.360 make it better as you go.

00:25:48.460 So when you show up to the whatever it is, or if you start the whatever it is, and I

00:25:52.980 can't tell you, Brent, and you probably did the same thing before AOM or Stringless Life

00:25:56.760 or any of those things came along too, right?

00:25:58.340 I've started, I don't even know how many things that have just, you know, gone out either in

00:26:03.020 a nice blaze of glory failure or a slow whimper into the, you know, death in the corner failure.

00:26:09.420 I've started all kinds of groups.

00:26:10.600 I've tried all kinds of crazy things to try and get done what I want to get done or to bring

00:26:15.000 people together or whatever it might be.

00:26:16.520 And then I just look and go, well, it's kind of that Thomas Edison idea, right?

00:26:21.240 I didn't invent a light bulb.

00:26:22.820 I invented what, you know, like 10,000 ways to not make a light bulb.

00:26:25.980 You know, I didn't discover the light bulb or whatever it was.

00:26:28.340 And I feel similarly.

00:26:29.560 I didn't discover how to lead a men's group.

00:26:32.200 You know, I discovered lots of ways to do it wrong.

00:26:34.760 And then I've tried to practice on the other end, you know, how to maybe not do it so wrong

00:26:39.900 this time.

00:26:41.140 No, that makes sense.

00:26:42.060 Yeah.

00:26:42.200 It's continual learning, Kaizen, whatever you want to call it.

00:26:45.560 Sure.

00:26:45.880 Talking about your experiences forming communities.

00:26:48.160 Can it be intentionally engineered or does it have to be like random or serendipity?

00:26:55.200 Or is it a mixture of both?

00:26:56.320 I'm going to say, yeah, it's probably a mixture of both to some degree.

00:27:02.680 I don't like the word engineered just because I think it implies that there is some, something

00:27:08.120 that you can build.

00:27:09.660 Like I want my bridges engineered because I don't want them to break.

00:27:13.420 You know, we don't want a lot of failure when it comes to bridges.

00:27:16.520 So I don't mind failure when it comes to people because that's life.

00:27:21.000 That's just part of how we do it.

00:27:22.080 And so I think, I think intentionally engineered, maybe not engineered, but does it have to be

00:27:26.840 intentional?

00:27:27.720 Boy, I tell you what, it better be.

00:27:29.360 It better be.

00:27:30.080 Because if you just, I mean, it can't be complete chaos and just like hope for the best.

00:27:33.240 I think just like any good leader or any good leadership model, you've got to have a mission

00:27:37.720 in mind.

00:27:38.580 You've got to have an end state in mind.

00:27:40.240 Where are we headed?

00:27:41.600 What is it that we're trying to accomplish here?

00:27:44.020 And not just tasks, but what, again, going back to Cynic, what he might say is a just cause.

00:27:49.860 Like, what is that thing that we, you know, is much bigger than all of us that we're trying

00:27:54.160 to get to.

00:27:55.100 And if we have a good sense of what that is, then we can be intentional toward that.

00:28:00.440 And then what you have to do, I think, is you have to allow for the chaos around you,

00:28:04.840 right?

00:28:04.960 So you be intentional about the things that you, that are supposed to be controlled, which

00:28:09.700 is adherence to mission maybe, or, you know, enforcing standards, you know, when it comes

00:28:14.060 to like, Hey, you're not living the core principles or whatever.

00:28:16.380 Right.

00:28:16.720 But that's more of a, an arm around a guy and telling him and, you know, one-on-one

00:28:20.040 kind of thing.

00:28:20.540 But then I think you have to allow for the chaos around you and the, the, you know, the,

00:28:26.040 the serendipitous accidents or whatever you want to call them.

00:28:29.480 Right.

00:28:29.800 If, if, and, you know, it's actually a good example in a way to harken back to the early

00:28:34.960 days and kind of the founding of F3.

00:28:36.420 And I don't remember if it's been a while since I've listened to the original podcast

00:28:39.520 that you were talking about from 15 or 17, whatever it was, but, uh, the guy, you know,

00:28:43.580 the group that this sort of broke off from was a guy who wanted to control things.

00:28:49.080 He was capping the membership.

00:28:50.480 He was the one leading every time, you know, stuff like that.

00:28:53.900 But what was recognized was if I let go of control and if I let go of the leadership and

00:29:00.800 if I simply teach others to lead rather than try and be the leader all the time, and if

00:29:06.360 I adapt to this, the circumstances that are in front of me and incorporate them, then I'll

00:29:12.460 come out with a better product.

00:29:14.160 If it had only gone the way that Dave and Tim and even myself, if I was only willing to

00:29:20.020 accept the things that I think are good ideas, we'd die.

00:29:24.040 We'd die.

00:29:24.860 I don't have good ideas.

00:29:25.920 I mean, I have some good ideas every once in a while, but that's why the other thing I

00:29:28.940 would, you know, people who are starting groups, don't do it by yourself.

00:29:32.760 Don't do it by yourself.

00:29:34.020 You can be the person that has most of the vision or you might be the good organizer or

00:29:37.280 whatever, but by golly, you better find some people who have some complimentary skill sets

00:29:41.940 and mindsets and bring them in and you got to influence them and love them into buying

00:29:47.880 into the dream and the mission of what you're trying to get done.

00:29:50.720 Otherwise, I mean, cause you know, there's no way I could do this thing by myself.

00:29:53.900 And so I embrace the chaos because either A, I'll get stronger as a man or a leader or

00:30:00.020 B, I'll learn some stuff that will actually make the group much stronger or, you know,

00:30:04.820 there might be ideas that it's like, oh, well, that actually is a whole different direction.

00:30:07.920 We might take things that we hadn't thought of before.

00:30:10.280 If it was up to me, if it was just up to my vision or our, you know, initial thoughts,

00:30:15.560 it would be engineered to failure.

00:30:18.180 That makes sense.

00:30:18.680 It's a total sense.

00:30:19.360 I'm curious if you've seen this problem in groups or in F3, because I've seen it in groups

00:30:23.520 that I've belonged to.

00:30:25.020 Everyone joins a group for different reasons.

00:30:27.020 You think they're all joining for the same reason, but oftentimes they're not.

00:30:31.380 I'm sure for F3, it's the same thing.

00:30:32.960 Like some guys just, they just want the workout.

00:30:35.120 Others are there for the friends.

00:30:36.640 Others are there for the leadership training.

00:30:38.780 I've seen this in, you know, other groups I belong to where you think, oh, you're here

00:30:43.080 for this thing.

00:30:44.440 And then you see them like getting really persnickety about another issue.

00:30:48.840 It's like, oh, actually you're not here for that thing.

00:30:50.680 And then it causes all this conflict.

00:30:52.060 So how do you balance competing ends in a group?

00:30:56.660 Well, I often say if it was easy, we wouldn't need leaders.

00:30:59.320 You got to recognize that anytime you do one thing, you're going to get dynamically more

00:31:03.360 of it and dynamically less of something else.

00:31:06.880 And so there is always this eternal tension in leadership of figuring out, well, you know,

00:31:12.280 all the different competing factors.

00:31:14.420 So I say one thing I would say is, yes, everyone joins a group for their own reason, but they

00:31:20.640 stay typically for a very similar reason.

00:31:23.980 And I think ultimately for a successful group, I think they have to stay for the mission.

00:31:29.240 If they're dedicated to the mission, if they see those things and if they've experienced

00:31:33.520 something in that group where they go, no, no, but I understand what we're really trying

00:31:37.920 to get done here.

00:31:38.900 Then you can look past a lot of the other stuff.

00:31:41.260 Dave introduced me to something he called the Augustinian code, although apparently it's

00:31:45.420 dubious as to whether or not St. Augustine actually said it.

00:31:48.220 And that is in essentials, we'll have unity.

00:31:50.880 In non-essentials, we'll have liberty.

00:31:54.000 But in all things, we'll have charity.

00:31:56.640 And so I think, you know, you have a desire and a dedication and a focus on a mission and

00:32:05.380 then a guy joins for whatever reason he joins for.

00:32:07.460 But I think he stays because he says, no, I understand that this stuff that is greater

00:32:12.180 than me, these things that are bigger than me, those are things that I serve.

00:32:15.580 I take myself out of it.

00:32:17.360 And then he stays because he wants the same thing we want, which is in our case, you know,

00:32:22.100 to help build leaders and to unlock men's hearts and minds so that they can be maximally

00:32:27.160 effective in their areas of influence, whatever that might be.

00:32:29.960 So I think that's the answer.

00:32:31.100 Yeah.

00:32:31.240 I think the key there is just communicate the mission constantly.

00:32:35.120 And that's all I do.

00:32:35.900 Yeah.

00:32:36.060 And if you think you've communicated enough, you probably haven't.

00:32:39.040 So in a traditional leadership setting to like a company or even a church, there's typically

00:32:43.180 a clear hierarchy, like the president, vice presidents, et cetera.

00:32:47.820 F3 doesn't have that in these groups.

00:32:49.700 So what does leadership look like in a decentralized volunteer community like F3?

00:32:55.380 Because I'm sure there's lessons we can take from F3 to any other voluntary group that you

00:33:00.800 might belong to.

00:33:02.300 Well, that is our hope.

00:33:03.400 In fact, we would like you to take it to the non-voluntary groups that you belong to as 0.79

00:33:06.580 well.

00:33:07.120 Because I think there's things that we can teach about leadership that are definitely

00:33:10.560 applicable in every area of life, even those that are non-voluntary.

00:33:13.580 But to your point, I think the number one thing to remember is you said, you know, what

00:33:18.780 is decentralized leadership?

00:33:19.860 It looks messy.

00:33:21.160 That's what it looks like to have no leader, you know, set person that you're like, well,

00:33:25.880 he just told me, I guess I have to do it is messy.

00:33:28.320 And it's funny because this is something that came up early on.

00:33:30.780 And my sort of serving at the national level in F3 was, you know, one of the guys got really

00:33:36.220 frustrated and he was like, what are the men thinking?

00:33:38.900 Why can't they just do the thing that I want them to do?

00:33:40.820 Like, what are they thinking?

00:33:41.940 And I had to say, I was like, well, I think they think that they're afraid to lead.

00:33:45.860 You know, I think this is your fault.

00:33:47.740 Like you taught them that they're leaders.

00:33:49.480 And then when they do the thing, you know, they're turning around trying to lead, like

00:33:52.160 you get mad at them.

00:33:53.080 So it's kind of funny.

00:33:53.800 But I think that we want you to recognize in a decentralized situation that every person

00:34:00.920 ultimately is responsible for the outcome of their own lives.

00:34:05.960 And so if they're leading a workout that day, yeah, they might be responsible for the

00:34:09.840 individual outcome of that workout.

00:34:12.000 And they may have sort of positions or kind of different areas of responsibility or something

00:34:17.040 within a region or group of F3 or whatever.

00:34:20.040 I have a different job, I guess, technically than maybe some others.

00:34:23.480 But ultimately, it isn't that one job is more important than another.

00:34:28.620 It's understanding that, A, if I called the guys in Tulsa and said, hey, you're going to

00:34:35.760 do this for your workout tomorrow.

00:34:37.880 I mean, when they stopped laughing, we could probably have a discussion about it, right?

00:34:43.440 Right.

00:34:43.660 I don't have any, I can't tell anyone what to do.

00:34:46.460 I wouldn't even pretend to.

00:34:48.120 I wouldn't attempt it.

00:34:49.920 Because number one, you know, it's not my job.

00:34:52.780 Number two, they understand now that they're the ones with the responsibility.

00:34:56.900 And coming from me, it would be comical because they ask me questions all the time.

00:35:01.920 You know, guys ask questions like, well, how old should a kid be before we let him come

00:35:05.900 to an F3 workout?

00:35:07.640 Man, like you're looking for a rule.

00:35:09.780 And I get that.

00:35:10.380 And I understand why you want it.

00:35:11.640 But ultimately, you have to make that decision.

00:35:13.780 You're the one responsible.

00:35:15.260 And I'm sorry.

00:35:15.760 And I know that frustrates you, but that's just the way that it is, right?

00:35:18.920 I can't tell you what to do.

00:35:20.760 So my job is not to tell you what to do.

00:35:23.020 My job is to stand and to help you discover the right answer.

00:35:26.900 What is the answer that you already know or that you have in your heart?

00:35:29.660 Or what is the answer that aligns most with the mission that we theoretically all believe

00:35:33.780 in?

00:35:34.160 That kind of a thing.

00:35:35.080 And so I think it looks messy, but it also looks like just a lot of love, a lot of influence.

00:35:40.400 I don't remember how many times I've not answered a question to a guy, but suddenly at the end

00:35:44.340 of our conversation, he seems to know what to do.

00:35:46.560 No, I've had that experience too with The Strenuous Life.

00:35:48.400 Yeah, right.

00:35:48.900 I'll get questions from guys like, well, does this count for this requirement?

00:35:53.440 Or if I do this, will it count?

00:35:56.080 Or how about if I do this for our group?

00:35:57.720 Is that okay?

00:35:58.680 And we have this guiding principle in The Strenuous Life.

00:36:01.460 I'm sure Strenuous Life listeners know what I'm about to say.

00:36:04.120 Phronesis, which comes from the Greek, ancient Greeks.

00:36:07.540 It's basically practical wisdom.

00:36:09.140 It's like knowing what the right thing to do for the right reason, the right time, for

00:36:13.640 the right purpose.

00:36:14.780 And I just tell people, use your phronesis, man.

00:36:16.860 Use your brain.

00:36:17.420 Like you've got, I trust you.

00:36:19.080 You can make that decision.

00:36:19.760 It's in there.

00:36:20.080 And a lot of guys, they get frustrated with that because they just want to be told exactly

00:36:22.960 what to do.

00:36:23.460 I'm like, no, I'm not going to do that.

00:36:24.900 I want you to develop this capacity to make decisions and use your judgment.

00:36:31.080 Yeah.

00:36:31.680 Yeah.

00:36:32.320 I think that fundamentally, and this is something that I think is so critical to leadership

00:36:37.720 of any kind, certainly of any small group, and very, very certainly of any sort of volunteer

00:36:42.900 type organization, like what we're doing out here.

00:36:45.860 You know, it's a different one when you got a boss and a boss can just tell you what to

00:36:48.920 do or they can threaten you to get fired or whatever, right?

00:36:51.120 That's not leadership.

00:36:52.020 That's just management.

00:36:53.400 And so if you're going to be in real leadership, I think the thing that we, another thing that

00:36:57.920 we forget amongst the many is that this is a love endeavor.

00:37:02.400 This is a love endeavor.

00:37:03.840 And our world has taught us that if I love you, that I will kind of plow the road ahead

00:37:11.000 of you and you never have to worry about anything.

00:37:13.040 I will accept you exactly as you are and I will let you do whatever you want because

00:37:16.420 that's love, but it's not.

00:37:18.640 It's permissiveness.

00:37:20.020 And permissiveness actually is its own kind of sin in my estimation.

00:37:23.240 And so I think that what you're talking about there, that's real love.

00:37:27.720 Real love is loving you enough to let you fail.

00:37:30.860 It's loving you enough to let you figure it out and struggle through it and make your

00:37:35.240 own decision.

00:37:36.160 Dude, if I could just tell my kids exactly what to do and have them do it, my life would

00:37:41.720 be infinitely easier, infinitely easier.

00:37:45.400 It is messy and horrifying, you know, that I, I send them on their way and I'm like, and

00:37:50.780 they come to me and they're like, dad, what should I do?

00:37:52.280 And I look at them and I go, you've been taught how to make decisions.

00:37:54.840 I think you should do that.

00:37:56.600 They don't love that as you might imagine.

00:37:59.440 But that's how I answer the things to the guys in F3 too.

00:38:02.360 You know, they're like, well, what should we do?

00:38:03.880 I think you should, I think you should employ those tactics and those techniques that you've

00:38:08.100 learned along the way on how to make decisions.

00:38:09.660 And you should do that because I can't tell you and I should not tell you.

00:38:14.680 In fact, I love you too much to tell you.

00:38:17.400 You have to know for yourself.

00:38:19.040 If I tell you it's what I think, if it goes wrong, then it's my fault.

00:38:22.640 If it goes right, then it was my success somehow.

00:38:24.760 And I love you too much.

00:38:25.940 You get to do this.

00:38:27.080 This is your deal.

00:38:27.900 So how should leaders of small groups of men, whether it's a church or you got a book

00:38:34.280 club or whatever, how should they define success?

00:38:42.400 That's a good question.

00:38:43.960 Every group is going to have its own definition, I'm sure.

00:38:47.160 And so I would say success looks like adherence to whatever that mission is.

00:38:51.880 So for me, how about this?

00:38:53.600 How about I answer it this way for F3, here's what I think success looks like.

00:38:58.260 And guys all over the country and even our board sometimes, and certainly from outside

00:39:03.420 organizations look and they're like, well, how are you measuring success?

00:39:06.600 And I'm like, well, that's a good question.

00:39:09.760 It sounds like you probably have an opinion about that.

00:39:11.620 Why don't you tell me what you think?

00:39:12.520 And they're like, well, you know, growth numbers, like how many men are in F3?

00:39:15.640 You should be tracking that.

00:39:16.540 You should know. 0.99

00:39:17.060 And I'm like, okay, but what if every guy in F3 is an idiot, but we have 500,000 of 1.00

00:39:22.960 them, but they're idiots. 1.00

00:39:25.020 And they're like, oh, I hadn't thought about that. 1.00

00:39:26.300 Exactly.

00:39:27.220 So that can't be it.

00:39:29.080 Okay, well, what if we have only 10 guys that, you know, in it, but they're really dedicated

00:39:34.660 to the mission?

00:39:35.320 Is that success?

00:39:36.860 You know, again, I go, well, maybe.

00:39:40.140 I don't know.

00:39:41.160 Here's what I know.

00:39:42.060 For me, success looks like I wore myself out.

00:39:47.640 My personal success, right?

00:39:49.080 Is I wore myself out in the service of the mission.

00:39:52.920 And I think success across the organization, for us anyway, is largely anecdotal.

00:39:58.980 It's the stories I hear about men saying, I recaptured my life.

00:40:04.080 My wife and I get along now.

00:40:05.820 We snatched our marriage from the jaws of divorce.

00:40:09.100 Or it looks like I quit drugs and alcohol.

00:40:12.060 Or I lost 100 pounds.

00:40:13.500 Or whatever it is.

00:40:14.380 There's the individual results of quote unquote success.

00:40:17.820 I think you're going to have as many, you know, as there are individual guys.

00:40:22.740 So I think success for us is knowing that we did the best we could to adhere to the mission

00:40:28.080 and serve the thing that is greater than us.

00:40:30.280 That's the best I can answer on that one.

00:40:32.220 Something that I've had to struggle with as a leader of different groups I belong to

00:40:37.000 is cultivating the patience that's often required to lead whenever it seems like things are just going slower than you want.

00:40:46.760 Have you had that struggle as well?

00:40:48.840 And if so, what have you done to overcome it?

00:40:51.400 Yeah, no.

00:40:52.480 I struggle from a condition known as perpetual dissatisfaction.

00:40:57.460 Yeah.

00:40:58.500 I don't know if you've said something similar.

00:41:01.140 But no, patience is not my jam.

00:41:04.060 I tend to move fast.

00:41:05.240 I decide things fast.

00:41:06.500 I live fast.

00:41:07.720 I told, in fact, a guy, CEO of a very large fitness company just yesterday was like,

00:41:12.180 you have an intensity issue.

00:41:13.260 And I was like, do I?

00:41:14.340 You know, that's interesting coming from you.

00:41:16.500 But okay.

00:41:17.580 But so I recognize that that's my bias.

00:41:20.520 I say that to say I have tons of biases, Brett.

00:41:24.740 And I'm always going to be slightly dissatisfied.

00:41:27.920 Or I'm always going to think that it's not moving fast enough.

00:41:30.300 Or I'm always going to be unhappy with the result of something.

00:41:33.900 And I'm happy with a lot of results, too.

00:41:35.620 I'm not, it's not, don't get the impression that I walk around sad all the time going like,

00:41:38.600 why can't everything be wonderful?

00:41:40.540 It's not that at all.

00:41:41.800 But I know that I have biases.

00:41:43.500 So the advice that I would give to someone starting a thing or who's looking to lead

00:41:48.760 in any way, the way to cultivate that patience is to segment your life a little bit, right?

00:41:54.720 So exhibit patience where, in those environments where it's appropriate.

00:41:58.540 And then by golly, get yourself a mentor and get yourself a small group.

00:42:04.000 We call them in F3, we call them shield locks.

00:42:06.600 You lock shields with two, three other guys.

00:42:09.100 And those are the guys that hear the best and the worst and the hardest and the, you

00:42:14.580 know, whatever.

00:42:15.320 And I unload it to those guys and they get to hear it. 0.98

00:42:18.060 And then they get to tell me that my head is in my rear end.

00:42:21.360 Or they get to tell me, you know, where I might be choosing poorly or where I might be choosing

00:42:26.260 well.

00:42:27.260 So, okay, it's not moving as fast as I want.

00:42:29.840 Fine.

00:42:30.660 Too bad.

00:42:31.540 It's moving as fast as it can.

00:42:33.340 It's moving as fast as it's supposed to.

00:42:34.740 The analogy I give a lot of times to guys is I go, all right, because they'll say in

00:42:39.040 their marriage, you know, something went wrong in their marriage and they're struggling.

00:42:43.300 And then they're trying to make good on it, but they can't seem to get their wife to forgive

00:42:47.920 them and to, you know, move forward or whatever.

00:42:49.720 And I say, well, here's the thing.

00:42:51.580 You think of it like a seed that you put in the ground and you can put all the nutrients

00:42:56.620 you want in that soil and you can cover it up at the perfect depth and you can measure

00:43:01.240 the pH and the moisture content and you can make this thing just as optimal, the perfect

00:43:06.500 amount of sunshine, keep the temperature, whatever it is, right?

00:43:11.220 But that seed is going to sprout above the edge of that soil when it is darn good and

00:43:16.040 ready.

00:43:16.240 And the only thing you can do is to consistently try and create, you know, a perfect environment

00:43:23.840 or as optimal an environment as you possibly can.

00:43:26.020 Now, that's your job as the leader in the group or in the organization or whatever it

00:43:31.040 might be.

00:43:31.860 That's your job is to consistently try and create optimal conditions so that when growth

00:43:36.720 is ready to happen, it happens.

00:43:39.240 So again, we get our minds caught in this finite game of, well, but I didn't get this

00:43:45.040 done by X date.

00:43:46.280 And so it must be not going well, or it must be a failure or any number of things, right?

00:43:51.160 And I just say, nah, man, again, I think you're just, you're playing the wrong game as a leader,

00:43:57.320 particularly of a volunteer organization.

00:43:58.660 But I think as a leader in general, it only serves us to remember that this is an infinite

00:44:04.380 game that goes on forever and ever and ever.

00:44:07.840 And so patience is all you have.

00:44:09.540 Time is all you have.

00:44:10.700 You can't control any of the other factors.

00:44:12.760 I can do what I can to maintain an optimal environment.

00:44:15.100 And then when that seed is ready, it'll come up.

00:44:17.860 Well, Frank, this has been a great conversation.

00:44:19.240 Where can people go to learn more about F3?

00:44:21.480 Just go outside and whether you see some crazy guys in a parking lot somewhere barking in

00:44:25.480 cadence, then you'll know.

00:44:26.580 That's where we, no, I'm just kidding.

00:44:28.200 Yeah.

00:44:28.460 Go to f3nation.com.

00:44:30.440 There's a place like, if you've never heard of F3 before and you think to yourself, man,

00:44:33.900 that sounds like a thing I might want to try.

00:44:35.860 Go to f3nation.com.

00:44:37.060 You'll see a link in there up at the top that says locations.

00:44:40.480 I think it's under like new or get started or something.

00:44:42.600 I don't remember now.

00:44:43.440 But you find, find the map, find the locations, find one near you and men just show up, just show

00:44:48.440 up and then we'll help you through the rest.

00:44:50.780 Don't worry about it.

00:44:51.820 Don't worry about it.

00:44:52.360 We'll guide you.

00:44:52.940 We'll get you moving.

00:44:53.640 But yeah, go someplace, just find one near you and show up and you can read all about

00:44:57.320 us on the website there.

00:44:58.980 Fantastic.

00:44:59.280 Well, Frank Shorts, thanks for your time.

00:45:00.180 It's been a pleasure.

00:45:01.240 Brett, I appreciate the time, my friend.

00:45:02.980 Take care.

00:45:04.440 My guest, it was Frank Shorts.

00:45:05.700 He's the CEO of F3.

00:45:07.240 You can find more information about F3 at f3nation.com.

00:45:10.080 Also, check out our show notes at awim.is slash men's groups.

00:45:13.580 We'll find links to resources where we delve deeper into this topic.

00:45:23.320 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AWIM podcast.

00:45:26.100 Make sure to check out our website at artofmanly.com where you'll find our podcast archives and make

00:45:30.020 sure to sign up for a new newsletter.

00:45:31.420 It's called Dying Breed. 0.98

00:45:32.700 You can sign up at dyingbreed.net.

00:45:34.380 It's a great way to support the show directly.

00:45:36.060 As always, thank you for the continued support.

00:45:38.600 Until next time, it's Brett McKay.

00:45:40.180 Remind you to listen to the AWIM podcast with Put What You've Heard into Action.

The Art of Manliness - May 13, 2025

Building Tribe — How to Create and Sustain Communities of Men

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript