The Art of Manliness - Chasing the White Whale — Into the Depths of Moby-Dick

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00:01:13.380 Brett McKay here,

00:01:14.460 and welcome to another edition

00:01:15.520 of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:01:17.780 If you went to high school in America,

00:01:19.440 you probably read Moby Dick,

00:01:21.480 or more likely, you skinned the CliffsNotes

00:01:24.180 and wondered why this dense, whale-obsessed novel

00:01:26.480 was considered a classic.

00:01:28.160 That was me in 10th grade.

00:01:29.680 But earlier this year,

00:01:30.680 I decided to revisit Moby Dick in midlife,

00:01:32.840 and it hit me completely differently.

00:01:35.240 What once seemed like a tedious story

00:01:36.820 about a guy chasing a whale

00:01:38.080 revealed itself to be a profound meditation

00:01:40.440 on free will, perception, self-reliance,

00:01:43.760 leadership, and obsession.

00:01:45.240 It's now one of my favorite novels.

00:01:47.760 To help unpack why Moby Dick indoors

00:01:49.360 and why it might be worth picking up again,

00:01:51.540 I'm joined by Mark Chirino,

00:01:53.040 professor of American literature.

00:01:55.260 Today on the show,

00:01:55.840 we discuss why Moby Dick was initially overlooked,

00:01:58.500 the novel's major themes,

00:02:00.000 and a timeless mystery

00:02:01.020 of Captain Ahab's monomaniacal quest.

00:02:04.040 After the show's over,

00:02:04.820 check out our show notes at aom.is slash Moby Dick.

00:02:07.500 All right, Mark Chirino,

00:02:22.580 welcome back to the show.

00:02:23.900 Thanks so much, Brett.

00:02:24.940 Great to be back.

00:02:25.760 So you are a Hemingway scholar,

00:02:27.280 and we've had you on the show before

00:02:28.600 to talk about Hemingway as a writer

00:02:30.500 and for whom the bell tolls, his novel.

00:02:33.300 But you also teach a class

00:02:34.640 about Herman Melville's Moby Dick.

00:02:37.140 Which is your favorite novel.

00:02:39.220 So if you are an American,

00:02:41.760 you went to high school in America,

00:02:43.660 you probably read this book,

00:02:45.260 I don't know, right around 10th grade.

00:02:46.560 That's when I read it.

00:02:47.280 It's when we did American literature.

00:02:48.860 And if you're like me in 10th grade,

00:02:50.660 you probably use the cliff notes a lot.

00:02:53.540 And I wanted to talk about Moby Dick

00:02:55.300 because I recently reread it earlier this year

00:02:57.820 as a 42-year-old man.

00:03:00.380 And I absolutely love this novel.

00:03:01.980 It's one of my favorites now.

00:03:03.240 And I hope with our conversation,

00:03:04.720 we can inspire some listeners

00:03:07.220 to either pick it up for the first time

00:03:09.720 or revisit it

00:03:11.120 if the last time they read it

00:03:12.480 was in high school English class.

00:03:15.320 So let's talk about big picture.

00:03:17.220 Let's talk about this guy, Herman Melville,

00:03:18.480 who wrote Moby Dick.

00:03:20.200 Who was this guy when he wrote Moby Dick?

00:03:22.280 What's his story?

00:03:24.060 Herman Melville was born in 1819.

00:03:27.340 So he was born into the era

00:03:29.080 that we really call American Romanticism,

00:03:31.300 which began around that time.

00:03:33.460 And he was a fairly prominent writer

00:03:36.460 of seafaring narratives,

00:03:39.000 Taipei, Oumu,

00:03:40.460 just kind of romps in foreign lands.

00:03:44.300 And with Moby Dick,

00:03:46.340 he became more interested in writing

00:03:49.160 in an abstract way.

00:03:50.860 So in other words,

00:03:51.600 he kept with the maritime adventures

00:03:54.540 and ships,

00:03:56.000 but instead he began to write

00:03:59.180 in an allegorical and abstract way

00:04:01.660 where he began to be all-encompassing.

00:04:04.760 And when this book was published in 1851,

00:04:07.580 people just weren't ready for it.

00:04:09.460 Some people noted that it was

00:04:10.760 an impressive book and so forth,

00:04:13.300 but it wasn't like it sold very much.

00:04:15.820 It wasn't like Melville became

00:04:17.220 this unimpeachable bard of American letters.

00:04:22.120 Melville would go on to write

00:04:23.380 a lot of abstract work,

00:04:25.120 philosophical, political, psychological.

00:04:27.980 And then he really became more of a poet

00:04:30.360 later in his life

00:04:31.800 before he died in 1891,

00:04:34.480 to the extent that when he died in 1891,

00:04:37.580 his obituaries didn't really say

00:04:39.020 that he was the author of Moby Dick

00:04:40.700 first and foremost.

00:04:42.320 He was more the author of Taipei,

00:04:45.000 Oumu,

00:04:45.480 these early kind of romantic yarns.

00:04:48.620 And it was only until later,

00:04:50.420 maybe the centennial of Melville's birth,

00:04:54.020 so 1919,

00:04:55.960 where people began to rediscover Moby Dick

00:04:59.280 and say, wow,

00:05:00.240 this is actually worth reading.

00:05:01.960 If I can tell you really quickly, Brett,

00:05:03.860 there's one particular scholar

00:05:06.200 named Raymond Weaver

00:05:07.300 who taught at Columbia,

00:05:08.480 who was prominent

00:05:10.100 in what is now known

00:05:11.120 as the Melville Revival,

00:05:13.020 which is kind of the rediscovery

00:05:14.400 of Moby Dick

00:05:15.020 and the rediscovery

00:05:16.240 of Melville himself.

00:05:18.400 And my grandfather

00:05:20.660 was a student at Columbia

00:05:22.100 for Professor Weaver.

00:05:24.200 And so he was one of the students

00:05:26.020 reading this book

00:05:28.000 that nobody had ever heard of

00:05:29.480 or nobody thought much about.

00:05:31.120 But this guy was like John the Baptist

00:05:32.860 when it came to Melville.

00:05:34.920 So now, years later,

00:05:36.820 Moby Dick is celebrated

00:05:37.800 as an unequivocal

00:05:39.680 great American novel.

00:05:42.000 And it just goes to show,

00:05:43.220 it might get us to think about

00:05:44.640 that the American literary canon

00:05:46.800 is as subjective as anything else.

00:05:48.980 You know, you think of Moby Dick

00:05:50.320 dropped down from the heavens

00:05:51.620 as, you know, sacred text.

00:05:54.440 It really wasn't that.

00:05:55.600 It was discovered

00:05:56.520 by some literature professor.

00:05:59.300 It reminds me of

00:06:00.600 F. Scott Fitzgerald's

00:06:01.840 The Great Gatsby.

00:06:02.820 Same sort of thing.

00:06:03.400 100%.

00:06:03.580 Yeah.

00:06:03.960 100%.

00:06:04.480 When Fitzgerald died in 1940,

00:06:07.540 he was convinced

00:06:08.200 Gatsby was a failure.

00:06:09.460 Gatsby was out of print.

00:06:11.020 And it had to be reintroduced.

00:06:13.200 And then now, of course,

00:06:14.700 it'll never go out of print.

00:06:15.700 So it's interesting,

00:06:17.640 Melville had written a lot

00:06:18.660 and he was well known

00:06:20.080 for his writing

00:06:20.860 before Moby Dick.

00:06:23.280 But today,

00:06:24.320 I think most people,

00:06:25.380 if they've read Melville,

00:06:26.400 the only thing they've read

00:06:27.200 from Melville

00:06:27.760 is Moby Dick.

00:06:29.200 Or they might have read

00:06:30.240 Bartleby the Scrivener.

00:06:32.020 And that's about it.

00:06:32.800 What do you think that is?

00:06:34.720 So I've read

00:06:36.140 several other Melville novels

00:06:37.960 to try to answer

00:06:39.160 exactly that question, Brett.

00:06:40.540 I was like,

00:06:40.840 why everyone would say

00:06:42.980 Melville is one of the

00:06:44.440 great American novelists

00:06:45.720 of all time.

00:06:47.060 Everybody would say that.

00:06:48.100 And then you could ask

00:06:48.960 those people who say that,

00:06:50.580 okay, so name two

00:06:51.660 Melville novels.

00:06:53.700 And, you know,

00:06:54.340 they would say,

00:06:54.760 well, Moby Dick

00:06:55.400 and Bartleby the Scrivener.

00:06:56.940 Okay, Bartleby the Scrivener

00:06:57.780 is a short story, right?

00:06:59.380 So what does Moby Dick have

00:07:01.400 that the others don't?

00:07:03.580 Especially since they're

00:07:04.520 kind of covering

00:07:05.120 the same terrain.

00:07:06.640 And if I can just be

00:07:07.780 reductive

00:07:08.640 and try to figure

00:07:09.860 this out,

00:07:10.640 the first thing

00:07:11.440 it has

00:07:11.900 is Ishmael.

00:07:13.460 And Ishmael

00:07:14.120 is this singular

00:07:15.420 narrator.

00:07:16.620 He's funny,

00:07:18.040 he's imaginative,

00:07:19.740 he's enthusiastic,

00:07:21.920 he's discursive,

00:07:23.760 like he goes on tangents

00:07:25.080 here and there,

00:07:26.060 and he's very

00:07:28.020 insightful

00:07:28.680 about human

00:07:30.140 behavior.

00:07:32.100 So Melville

00:07:32.920 had never done

00:07:33.500 that before.

00:07:34.080 Create such a

00:07:35.320 perfect narrator.

00:07:36.620 The second thing

00:07:37.920 it has

00:07:38.200 is Ahab,

00:07:39.220 this enormous

00:07:40.240 figure,

00:07:41.020 this mad

00:07:41.860 captain

00:07:42.720 determined to

00:07:43.840 get vengeance

00:07:44.560 on this monster

00:07:45.920 of the sea.

00:07:46.860 So he's almost

00:07:47.700 godlike

00:07:48.460 or royalty.

00:07:50.440 He's just

00:07:51.200 larger than life

00:07:52.300 and Melville

00:07:53.340 had never created

00:07:54.380 such a

00:07:55.920 larger than life

00:07:56.840 protagonist.

00:07:58.020 And also

00:07:58.780 Moby Dick

00:07:59.400 himself,

00:08:00.200 the whale,

00:08:01.140 this creature

00:08:01.860 that is the

00:08:03.080 object of so

00:08:03.960 much fury

00:08:04.680 and so much

00:08:05.340 scrutiny

00:08:05.960 that is

00:08:07.540 the great

00:08:08.460 quest that

00:08:09.400 Ahab is

00:08:10.000 on.

00:08:11.040 And so

00:08:11.440 triangulating

00:08:12.520 these three

00:08:13.380 unbelievable

00:08:14.340 characters

00:08:15.260 within this

00:08:16.160 novel

00:08:16.560 creates such

00:08:18.360 an alchemy,

00:08:19.340 such power

00:08:20.200 and mystery

00:08:20.940 that none

00:08:22.440 of his other

00:08:23.080 books ever

00:08:23.900 approached

00:08:24.660 this kind

00:08:25.640 of structure.

00:08:27.820 Why do you

00:08:28.080 think this

00:08:28.360 novel is so

00:08:28.920 intimidating?

00:08:29.840 I think some

00:08:30.260 people,

00:08:30.660 they have

00:08:30.980 Moby Dick

00:08:31.520 on their

00:08:31.940 to-read list

00:08:32.780 or they

00:08:33.180 remember reading

00:08:33.840 it from when

00:08:34.260 they were in

00:08:34.460 high school

00:08:34.880 and they're

00:08:35.080 like,

00:08:35.340 ugh,

00:08:36.180 Moby Dick.

00:08:37.320 I can't do

00:08:38.080 that.

00:08:38.660 What is it

00:08:39.220 about this

00:08:39.700 book or the

00:08:40.200 way it's

00:08:40.560 written that

00:08:41.000 makes it

00:08:41.400 intimidating?

00:08:42.800 Well,

00:08:43.220 you're going

00:08:43.740 to have to

00:08:44.140 tell me

00:08:44.980 about how

00:08:45.580 you felt

00:08:46.080 about it

00:08:46.440 as a

00:08:46.760 10th

00:08:47.040 grader.

00:08:47.780 I mean,

00:08:48.220 it's kind

00:08:48.720 of long.

00:08:49.640 It's not

00:08:50.280 long as

00:08:51.900 19th century

00:08:52.740 American novels

00:08:53.560 go necessarily.

00:08:54.760 I mean,

00:08:54.920 there are lots

00:08:55.460 longer novels.

00:08:57.060 I think the

00:08:57.640 writing is

00:08:58.180 pretty dense

00:08:59.000 and poetic

00:09:00.460 and Baroque.

00:09:02.220 Melville writes

00:09:02.940 in a very

00:09:03.620 intense way.

00:09:05.760 So it can

00:09:06.780 be very hard

00:09:07.600 to kind of

00:09:08.120 unpack some

00:09:09.020 of the

00:09:09.300 poetic

00:09:09.740 imagery,

00:09:11.340 some of

00:09:11.680 the philosophical

00:09:12.580 ideas.

00:09:13.580 Absolutely,

00:09:14.320 some of

00:09:14.660 that can

00:09:15.580 be difficult

00:09:16.200 to unpack.

00:09:18.000 Ishmael also

00:09:18.820 goes on

00:09:19.800 digressions,

00:09:20.680 as I

00:09:20.980 mentioned.

00:09:22.000 So there's

00:09:22.380 the very

00:09:22.840 simple story,

00:09:24.160 which is,

00:09:25.200 Ahab has

00:09:25.740 been wounded

00:09:26.380 by this one

00:09:27.340 particular white

00:09:28.400 whale named

00:09:28.960 Moby Dick

00:09:29.600 and has

00:09:30.520 now determined

00:09:31.340 to set out

00:09:32.460 and avenge

00:09:33.420 it.

00:09:33.940 And our

00:09:34.620 narrator Ishmael

00:09:35.640 happens to be

00:09:36.440 on that ship,

00:09:37.420 the Pequod.

00:09:38.340 So that's a

00:09:38.880 very simple

00:09:39.460 story,

00:09:40.060 just a very

00:09:40.540 simple story

00:09:41.800 of vengeance

00:09:42.340 and actually

00:09:43.040 also a

00:09:43.620 holy grail

00:09:44.200 story,

00:09:44.840 trying to

00:09:45.520 reach one

00:09:46.300 particular

00:09:46.840 object.

00:09:48.500 But at the

00:09:49.080 same time,

00:09:50.200 Melville layers

00:09:51.140 on top of

00:09:51.980 this very

00:09:52.380 simple,

00:09:53.100 straightforward,

00:09:53.880 linear story,

00:09:54.980 discussions

00:09:55.400 about religion

00:09:56.280 and politics

00:09:57.600 and commerce

00:09:58.780 and law

00:09:59.780 and history

00:10:00.780 and psychology

00:10:02.520 and philosophy

00:10:03.420 and nature.

00:10:04.800 So it goes

00:10:05.180 on and on

00:10:06.100 and on.

00:10:06.940 And I think

00:10:07.680 that can be

00:10:08.220 very either

00:10:09.200 frustrating or

00:10:10.280 disorienting for

00:10:11.620 lots of readers.

00:10:13.920 I think when I

00:10:15.040 was in 10th grade

00:10:15.880 and I was reading

00:10:16.640 this book the

00:10:17.000 first time,

00:10:17.560 I remember I'd

00:10:18.080 get to the

00:10:18.480 chapters where

00:10:19.700 Melville would

00:10:21.080 just inject

00:10:21.760 these almost

00:10:22.680 like pseudo

00:10:23.360 scientific textbooks

00:10:24.820 about whales.

00:10:25.660 like chapter

00:10:26.760 32 where

00:10:28.380 you just see

00:10:29.480 that it's just

00:10:29.920 basically like

00:10:30.400 the scientific

00:10:31.100 name of the

00:10:31.860 whale,

00:10:32.220 like the

00:10:32.700 description of

00:10:33.200 the whale.

00:10:34.200 And I remember

00:10:34.580 in 10th grade

00:10:35.080 it's like,

00:10:35.280 what does that

00:10:35.560 have to do

00:10:35.780 with the

00:10:36.040 story?

00:10:36.800 So I'm

00:10:37.020 just going

00:10:37.200 to skip

00:10:37.480 this.

00:10:37.980 What do

00:10:38.280 you think

00:10:38.380 is going

00:10:38.600 on there?

00:10:38.960 Why did

00:10:39.400 Melville do

00:10:40.240 that?

00:10:40.420 I mean,

00:10:40.520 he does

00:10:40.720 that several

00:10:41.320 times throughout

00:10:41.660 the book.

00:10:41.980 I remember

00:10:42.180 there's one

00:10:42.720 where he

00:10:43.000 just talks

00:10:43.420 about the

00:10:43.720 anatomy of

00:10:44.280 the sperm

00:10:44.720 whale head.

00:10:45.820 Like,

00:10:45.960 what does

00:10:46.380 this have

00:10:46.660 to do

00:10:47.040 with Ahab

00:10:47.680 getting Moby

00:10:48.200 Dick?

00:10:49.680 Yeah,

00:10:50.080 on the

00:10:50.940 surface it

00:10:51.520 has nothing

00:10:52.160 to do

00:10:52.520 with it.

00:10:53.120 And chapter

00:10:53.600 32,

00:10:54.280 which is

00:10:54.500 called

00:10:54.740 Sotology,

00:10:55.960 probably has

00:10:56.720 caused more

00:10:57.580 editions of

00:10:58.400 Moby Dick

00:10:58.900 to be turned

00:10:59.480 into Frisbees

00:11:00.420 and launched

00:11:01.140 across dorm

00:11:02.080 rooms all

00:11:03.280 across the

00:11:03.720 United States

00:11:04.300 than anything

00:11:05.120 else in

00:11:06.280 American

00:11:06.740 literature.

00:11:08.120 So Ishmael

00:11:09.200 takes us on

00:11:10.060 a really

00:11:11.020 convoluted

00:11:12.040 taxonomy of

00:11:13.420 the different

00:11:13.900 kinds of

00:11:14.540 whales and

00:11:15.320 the way they

00:11:15.700 looked and

00:11:16.400 their behavior.

00:11:18.280 And I

00:11:18.760 think this is

00:11:19.240 part of

00:11:19.720 Melville's

00:11:20.320 vision.

00:11:20.900 Of course,

00:11:21.360 I'm only

00:11:21.860 telling you

00:11:22.420 what its

00:11:22.900 effect is

00:11:23.740 to me as

00:11:24.520 a reader.

00:11:25.080 I can't

00:11:25.520 tell you

00:11:25.840 what he

00:11:26.400 was going

00:11:27.360 for.

00:11:27.900 He never

00:11:28.220 proclaimed it.

00:11:29.340 But I

00:11:29.600 think in

00:11:30.260 addition to

00:11:30.740 this narrative,

00:11:31.600 he was

00:11:31.960 trying to

00:11:32.400 say everything

00:11:33.080 about whales

00:11:34.240 all at

00:11:34.840 once.

00:11:35.500 So he

00:11:35.740 was trying

00:11:36.060 to come

00:11:36.420 at it

00:11:36.740 from an

00:11:37.760 adventure

00:11:38.240 point of

00:11:38.720 view.

00:11:39.020 He was

00:11:39.240 trying to

00:11:39.560 come at

00:11:39.820 it from

00:11:40.060 a metaphysical

00:11:41.040 point of

00:11:41.520 view,

00:11:41.820 a historical

00:11:42.500 point of

00:11:43.100 view,

00:11:43.560 and in

00:11:44.380 this case,

00:11:45.060 a scientific

00:11:45.580 point of

00:11:46.100 view.

00:11:46.560 I'll tell

00:11:46.960 you a

00:11:47.240 couple of

00:11:47.860 effects that

00:11:49.720 is on

00:11:49.960 me.

00:11:50.840 The first

00:11:51.340 thing it

00:11:52.020 does is

00:11:52.640 it shows

00:11:53.280 how engrossed

00:11:54.760 and enthusiastic

00:11:55.760 Ishmael is

00:11:56.800 as a

00:11:57.260 narrator.

00:11:58.180 And that's

00:11:58.600 no small

00:11:59.060 thing.

00:11:59.780 Brett, if

00:12:00.140 you've ever

00:12:00.440 been talking

00:12:00.980 to somebody,

00:12:01.620 even if

00:12:01.940 you're not

00:12:02.440 inherently

00:12:02.980 interested in

00:12:03.700 what the

00:12:03.980 person's

00:12:04.300 talking about,

00:12:05.100 if they

00:12:05.720 are so

00:12:07.140 obsessed and

00:12:08.120 hyped up on

00:12:09.080 what the

00:12:09.800 story is,

00:12:10.800 sometimes that's

00:12:11.520 charming and

00:12:12.120 engaging, and

00:12:12.900 I definitely

00:12:13.680 find that with

00:12:14.420 Ishmael.

00:12:15.180 You don't

00:12:15.680 really need to

00:12:16.240 be as

00:12:16.980 excited about

00:12:17.700 whales as

00:12:18.240 Ishmael.

00:12:18.800 You just

00:12:19.140 need to know

00:12:19.580 that Ishmael

00:12:20.180 is very

00:12:20.500 excited about

00:12:21.120 whales.

00:12:22.040 So Ishmael

00:12:22.720 is eager to

00:12:23.400 tell you

00:12:23.860 everything that

00:12:24.540 he's learned

00:12:25.160 about whales.

00:12:26.740 And the

00:12:27.400 second thing

00:12:27.920 that I would

00:12:28.340 offer about

00:12:29.300 the Sotology

00:12:29.960 chapter is,

00:12:31.140 as Ishmael

00:12:32.300 is offering

00:12:33.180 an organizational

00:12:34.600 system of

00:12:36.240 whales based

00:12:37.100 on how they

00:12:37.900 look and how

00:12:38.640 they behave,

00:12:40.080 this book

00:12:40.620 comes out in

00:12:41.280 1851, and

00:12:43.100 in 1851,

00:12:44.700 weren't we

00:12:45.240 doing the same

00:12:45.880 thing about

00:12:46.940 human beings?

00:12:47.660 didn't we

00:12:48.500 have a

00:12:48.820 hierarchy of

00:12:49.640 human beings

00:12:50.380 that we

00:12:51.100 valued depending

00:12:52.120 on how they

00:12:52.680 looked and

00:12:53.460 how they

00:12:53.740 behaved and

00:12:54.900 where they

00:12:55.440 were, where

00:12:56.180 they lived?

00:12:57.160 If we don't

00:12:58.200 in 2025, we

00:12:59.440 certainly were

00:13:00.220 in 1851.

00:13:02.000 And so when I

00:13:03.600 mentioned earlier

00:13:04.360 that the

00:13:04.840 whaling adventure

00:13:05.860 is kind of an

00:13:06.580 allegory or a

00:13:07.800 metaphor for

00:13:09.180 larger things,

00:13:10.800 that could be

00:13:12.340 something that

00:13:12.960 the Sotology

00:13:13.720 chapter suggests.

00:13:15.280 I think for

00:13:16.440 me, the

00:13:16.760 effect it

00:13:17.220 had on me

00:13:17.700 whenever he

00:13:18.120 goes into

00:13:18.460 these scientific

00:13:19.220 digressions about

00:13:20.160 whales, it

00:13:21.300 made Moby Dick

00:13:23.060 the whale, like

00:13:24.040 I understood it

00:13:25.320 more, and it

00:13:25.860 also made him

00:13:26.860 even more

00:13:27.460 impressive in a

00:13:28.780 way.

00:13:29.160 I don't know if

00:13:29.580 that was the

00:13:29.960 effect he was

00:13:30.400 going for, but

00:13:30.820 that's what it

00:13:31.140 did for me.

00:13:31.760 It made the

00:13:32.520 whale more

00:13:32.960 impressive or

00:13:33.600 Ishmael more

00:13:34.380 impressive?

00:13:34.440 It made the

00:13:34.980 whale more

00:13:35.400 impressive.

00:13:37.060 Yeah, because

00:13:37.720 he's saying you

00:13:38.620 have to understand

00:13:39.840 this thing from

00:13:40.820 all its vantage

00:13:42.400 points, how

00:13:43.480 big its head

00:13:44.560 is, what its

00:13:45.460 tail is like.

00:13:46.820 On and on,

00:13:47.720 there's even the

00:13:48.680 chapter about a

00:13:49.460 whale's penis, only

00:13:50.920 to show that we

00:13:52.580 have never really

00:13:53.600 encountered monsters

00:13:54.760 like this before.

00:13:56.220 So you mentioned

00:13:56.720 the big picture

00:13:57.940 outline of the

00:13:58.500 book.

00:13:58.900 It's this guy

00:13:59.420 named Ishmael.

00:14:00.420 He hooks up with

00:14:00.920 this ship called

00:14:01.920 the Pequod, and

00:14:03.020 he's the book's

00:14:03.860 narrator.

00:14:04.880 And the ship's

00:14:05.480 captain is Ahab,

00:14:06.800 who's been injured

00:14:07.560 by this whale named

00:14:08.820 Moby Dick.

00:14:10.160 And the book is

00:14:10.880 all about Ahab

00:14:11.940 trying to find

00:14:12.960 this whale,

00:14:13.640 essentially.

00:14:14.620 That's what it

00:14:15.000 is.

00:14:15.520 And then along

00:14:16.040 the way, they're

00:14:16.540 doing some

00:14:16.940 welling, then

00:14:17.660 there's some

00:14:18.080 other things

00:14:18.680 going on.

00:14:19.600 But let's talk

00:14:20.040 about the main

00:14:20.580 themes of Moby

00:14:21.480 Dick.

00:14:21.840 You mentioned

00:14:22.120 some of them

00:14:22.540 earlier, science,

00:14:24.480 philosophy, religion.

00:14:26.220 What would you say

00:14:27.220 are the big themes

00:14:28.340 you see throughout

00:14:29.420 this novel?

00:14:30.840 Yeah, there are a

00:14:31.640 lot of themes.

00:14:33.120 I think Melville

00:14:34.140 touches on a lot

00:14:35.340 of things.

00:14:36.000 One of the

00:14:36.600 elements that he

00:14:38.600 is addressing is

00:14:40.080 the difference

00:14:40.580 between free will

00:14:41.680 and determinism,

00:14:43.160 which is simply,

00:14:44.240 do you have

00:14:44.620 control of your

00:14:45.280 own actions?

00:14:46.340 In the very first

00:14:47.200 chapter, which is

00:14:47.900 called Loomings,

00:14:49.640 Ishmael is describing

00:14:50.700 a kind of a magnetic

00:14:51.960 pull that he has

00:14:53.000 to the sea.

00:14:53.940 So it's almost like

00:14:54.600 he doesn't choose

00:14:55.300 to go.

00:14:55.940 The sea draws him

00:14:57.280 and he's saying

00:14:58.640 that happens

00:14:59.680 all the time,

00:15:01.460 that we're drawn

00:15:02.360 to certain places,

00:15:03.520 like we're kind of

00:15:04.200 sick of society

00:15:05.140 and we've got to

00:15:06.100 go into nature.

00:15:07.700 And by the same

00:15:08.420 token, the reason

00:15:09.640 that theme is so

00:15:10.760 important is because

00:15:11.720 when Moby Dick

00:15:13.860 injured Ahab,

00:15:15.900 Ahab believes

00:15:17.100 that Moby Dick

00:15:18.180 sought him out

00:15:19.340 personally to

00:15:20.660 injure him.

00:15:21.520 Like, you.

00:15:22.440 I want to get

00:15:23.020 you.

00:15:24.000 And so Ahab is

00:15:24.820 personally insulted

00:15:26.140 that that one

00:15:27.400 particular whale

00:15:28.600 injured him.

00:15:29.700 Meanwhile, I think

00:15:30.860 maybe most

00:15:31.500 common sense readers

00:15:32.640 and certainly

00:15:33.480 Starbuck in the

00:15:34.600 novel, they're

00:15:35.460 like, Ahab,

00:15:36.840 that's what whales

00:15:37.760 do.

00:15:38.540 It was instinct.

00:15:39.600 Why would you

00:15:40.740 take it personally?

00:15:42.220 God designed

00:15:43.440 this whale to

00:15:44.460 defend itself

00:15:45.680 and to attack

00:15:46.620 potential threats.

00:15:48.060 You just have to

00:15:48.960 accept that.

00:15:50.060 And so, you see,

00:15:51.280 there's a distinction

00:15:52.040 between did

00:15:53.880 Moby Dick

00:15:54.700 act intentionally

00:15:55.860 with a human

00:15:56.840 motivation or

00:15:58.620 was it just

00:15:59.500 mechanical instinct?

00:16:01.380 And that question

00:16:02.440 gets turned around

00:16:03.700 when Ahab is

00:16:05.880 suggesting his

00:16:07.240 act of vengeance

00:16:08.340 on the whale

00:16:09.320 is also

00:16:10.440 instinct.

00:16:11.520 He is drawn

00:16:12.400 to it

00:16:13.280 magnetically

00:16:14.260 almost like

00:16:15.460 the whale

00:16:16.320 was drawn

00:16:16.760 to him.

00:16:17.780 So this

00:16:18.160 kind of gets

00:16:18.820 at a lot

00:16:19.360 of questions

00:16:19.960 about human

00:16:20.480 behaviors.

00:16:21.220 When do we

00:16:22.200 act according

00:16:23.120 to our own

00:16:23.760 consciousness

00:16:24.260 versus when

00:16:25.620 do we act

00:16:26.200 kind of

00:16:26.740 programmatically?

00:16:28.420 And so that's

00:16:28.960 certainly one

00:16:29.600 of the themes.

00:16:31.060 So what do

00:16:31.200 you think was

00:16:31.420 going on in

00:16:32.480 Melville's time

00:16:33.220 where he was

00:16:33.660 thinking about

00:16:34.420 free will

00:16:35.680 versus

00:16:36.320 determinism?

00:16:37.400 What was

00:16:37.780 happening in

00:16:38.280 America at

00:16:38.760 the time?

00:16:40.280 Well, I think

00:16:41.140 one of my

00:16:41.620 favorite sentences

00:16:43.120 in the novel

00:16:44.800 is when Ishmael

00:16:46.280 says,

00:16:46.680 who ain't a

00:16:47.140 slave?

00:16:48.020 And I think

00:16:48.920 that's one of

00:16:49.320 the most

00:16:49.580 courageous

00:16:49.980 sentences in

00:16:50.840 that novel.

00:16:51.980 In 1851,

00:16:53.300 he says,

00:16:53.680 who ain't a

00:16:54.220 slave?

00:16:54.680 And some

00:16:55.120 people actually

00:16:55.840 were slaves.

00:16:56.900 But he's

00:16:57.320 talking about

00:16:57.800 something a

00:16:58.220 little larger.

00:16:59.400 He's saying,

00:16:59.760 okay, is

00:17:00.720 slavery a

00:17:02.360 legal issue?

00:17:03.380 Or can it

00:17:04.520 also be a

00:17:05.180 psychological issue?

00:17:06.120 Are there

00:17:06.480 things that

00:17:07.420 even free

00:17:08.120 people in

00:17:09.120 2025 are

00:17:10.800 slaves to?

00:17:12.240 And then as

00:17:12.960 one of his

00:17:13.760 contemporaries,

00:17:15.020 Ralph Waldo

00:17:15.680 Emerson said,

00:17:17.260 well, what if

00:17:18.080 you're a slave

00:17:18.600 driver to

00:17:19.300 yourself, right?

00:17:20.360 What if you

00:17:20.860 are imprisoning

00:17:22.340 yourself through

00:17:23.580 limitations or

00:17:25.020 habits or

00:17:26.200 prejudices or

00:17:27.520 small-mindedness or

00:17:28.980 things like that?

00:17:30.920 Another theme

00:17:31.800 that you talk

00:17:33.100 about and

00:17:33.860 that you see

00:17:34.280 in the book

00:17:34.600 is this idea

00:17:35.040 of objective

00:17:35.600 versus subjective?

00:17:36.780 Yes.

00:17:37.280 What's going

00:17:37.620 on there?

00:17:39.240 Yeah, so

00:17:39.760 basically, there's

00:17:41.800 a juxtaposition

00:17:43.140 between subjective

00:17:44.380 perception, how

00:17:45.360 an individual

00:17:46.480 sees the truth

00:17:47.680 of something,

00:17:48.400 and objective

00:17:49.380 reality, what

00:17:50.160 the empirical

00:17:51.060 facts are.

00:17:52.480 And this is

00:17:53.320 really set up

00:17:54.160 in so many

00:17:54.920 ways.

00:17:55.540 And I think

00:17:56.020 the best way

00:17:57.360 to analyze

00:17:58.780 this idea

00:17:59.740 is the

00:18:01.260 doubloon

00:18:01.800 chapter, where

00:18:03.340 Ahab nails

00:18:04.720 up a single

00:18:05.780 coin and

00:18:07.260 says, whoever

00:18:07.840 can spot

00:18:08.920 Moby Dick

00:18:09.360 first, this

00:18:09.960 one particular

00:18:10.540 wealth, gets

00:18:11.320 this very

00:18:12.500 valuable coin.

00:18:13.980 And then there's

00:18:14.980 an extraordinary

00:18:15.680 chapter where

00:18:17.360 Ishmael describes

00:18:18.480 several people,

00:18:19.680 starting with Ahab,

00:18:20.980 going up to the

00:18:22.000 doubloon, looking

00:18:23.340 at the shapes and

00:18:24.640 the figures and

00:18:25.560 the symbols on

00:18:26.600 this coin, and

00:18:28.220 essentially

00:18:28.800 interpreting it or

00:18:30.000 reading it.

00:18:31.000 So we might

00:18:32.160 think of like an

00:18:32.780 inkblot test.

00:18:34.160 Well, an inkblot

00:18:34.960 test objectively

00:18:36.200 is an inkblot, but

00:18:37.760 subjectively, there

00:18:39.000 might be an image

00:18:39.820 or a memory that

00:18:41.540 it calls up to

00:18:42.360 you individually.

00:18:43.840 And the same is

00:18:44.820 true for the

00:18:45.280 doubloon.

00:18:46.040 So it ends up

00:18:46.920 revealing more

00:18:47.620 about the person

00:18:48.480 than about the

00:18:49.460 coin itself.

00:18:50.900 So Ahab looks

00:18:51.660 at it, and you

00:18:52.600 remember what he

00:18:53.080 says when he

00:18:53.700 sees the coin?

00:18:55.180 He says, you

00:18:55.960 see that?

00:18:56.600 That's Ahab.

00:18:57.840 Those things

00:18:58.380 over there, that's

00:18:59.120 Ahab.

00:18:59.600 Everything, Ahab,

00:19:00.580 Ahab, Ahab.

00:19:01.700 So it's the

00:19:02.560 greatest expression

00:19:03.800 of solipsism and

00:19:05.800 self-obsession,

00:19:06.840 self-absorption,

00:19:07.860 because Ahab sees

00:19:08.880 himself in

00:19:09.900 everything.

00:19:10.800 He's self-obsessed.

00:19:12.700 Another chapter

00:19:14.260 where you see that

00:19:15.180 exploration of

00:19:16.040 objective versus

00:19:16.740 subjective, it's

00:19:18.180 one of my favorite

00:19:18.680 chapters, 118,

00:19:20.120 The Quadrant.

00:19:21.580 Okay.

00:19:22.180 And this is a

00:19:23.740 scene where

00:19:24.700 someone's trying to

00:19:25.660 bust out the

00:19:26.160 quadrant.

00:19:26.760 Sailors use this

00:19:27.580 to navigate.

00:19:28.600 You look at the

00:19:29.200 stars, and you

00:19:29.900 can figure out

00:19:30.300 where you're at.

00:19:31.540 And Ahab is

00:19:32.460 like, I'm not

00:19:32.960 having it.

00:19:33.540 He's like, I

00:19:34.080 hate this thing.

00:19:34.800 He calls it

00:19:35.740 foolish toy,

00:19:36.580 babies, plaything

00:19:37.400 of haughty

00:19:37.900 admirals and

00:19:38.480 commodores and

00:19:39.140 captains.

00:19:40.060 The world brags

00:19:41.040 of thee and thy

00:19:41.680 cunning might.

00:19:43.020 Then he says,

00:19:43.540 science, curse

00:19:44.600 thee, thou vain

00:19:45.500 toy, and curse

00:19:46.700 be all the things

00:19:47.440 that cast man's

00:19:48.440 eyes aloft to

00:19:49.160 that heaven,

00:19:50.080 whose live

00:19:50.720 vividness but

00:19:51.380 scorches him,

00:19:52.400 as these old

00:19:53.100 eyes are even

00:19:53.960 now scorched

00:19:54.660 with thy

00:19:54.980 light.

00:19:56.000 And he said,

00:19:56.800 level by nature

00:19:57.760 to this earth's

00:19:58.360 horizon are the

00:19:59.080 glances of man's

00:19:59.780 eyes, not shot

00:20:00.660 from the crown of

00:20:01.220 his head as if

00:20:01.860 God had meant

00:20:02.580 him to gaze on

00:20:03.420 his firmament.

00:20:04.400 Curse thee, thou

00:20:05.020 quadrant.

00:20:05.920 And he dashed it

00:20:06.540 to the deck.

00:20:07.320 No longer will I

00:20:08.240 guide my earthly

00:20:08.940 way by thee, the

00:20:10.180 level ship compass,

00:20:11.380 and the level of

00:20:12.060 dead reckoning by

00:20:12.880 log and by line.

00:20:14.240 These shall conduct

00:20:15.200 me and show me my

00:20:16.400 place on the sea.

00:20:17.940 And I think it's a

00:20:18.540 great, he's like,

00:20:19.080 I'm rejecting

00:20:19.560 science.

00:20:20.420 I'm not guiding

00:20:21.180 my life by the

00:20:22.420 objective science.

00:20:24.460 I'm just going to

00:20:25.080 use my own self

00:20:26.540 to guide my life.

00:20:28.300 And I read that

00:20:30.120 and I can see,

00:20:30.760 okay, that's not

00:20:31.340 good to reject

00:20:32.140 objectivity.

00:20:33.040 But at the same

00:20:33.740 time, I'm kind of

00:20:34.620 inspired by Ahab

00:20:35.700 because he's like,

00:20:36.700 I'm going to do

00:20:37.180 what I want to do

00:20:38.080 and not what some

00:20:39.620 instrument tells me

00:20:40.800 to do.

00:20:41.340 Because I think it's

00:20:41.780 very relevant today

00:20:42.800 where we have AI.

00:20:44.900 People are going to

00:20:45.740 ChatGPT asking

00:20:46.740 ChatGPT to make

00:20:48.060 decisions for them

00:20:49.180 about, well,

00:20:50.420 should I take this

00:20:51.540 job or, you know,

00:20:52.720 even about romance,

00:20:53.860 their romantic life.

00:20:55.180 And I think Ahab

00:20:56.440 would say like,

00:20:56.860 no, curse the

00:20:58.400 ChatGPT and like

00:20:59.540 he'd smash it.

00:21:01.300 There is definitely

00:21:02.320 that to it.

00:21:03.120 And this is like

00:21:04.240 Luke Skywalker

00:21:05.020 using the force

00:21:06.500 and not, you know,

00:21:08.180 putting the blast

00:21:08.900 shield down, right?

00:21:09.920 And he's like,

00:21:10.660 I'm trusting my own

00:21:11.900 instinct is strong

00:21:13.260 enough to solve

00:21:15.200 this problem and

00:21:16.420 execute this mission.

00:21:17.380 And I agree with

00:21:18.580 you, that is

00:21:19.300 inspiring.

00:21:20.520 But we can see

00:21:21.700 also the cautionary

00:21:23.300 tale of how they

00:21:23.840 can get you into

00:21:24.380 trouble, how you

00:21:25.860 can forsake facts

00:21:27.300 and say, I got

00:21:29.180 this.

00:21:30.040 And there's a

00:21:30.620 difference, especially

00:21:31.340 in romantic literature,

00:21:32.760 capital R.

00:21:33.740 So I'm not talking

00:21:34.340 about romance novels,

00:21:35.320 I'm talking about

00:21:35.780 romantic literature.

00:21:37.160 The difference in

00:21:38.060 romantic literature is

00:21:39.180 trusting yourself,

00:21:41.300 and I'm using

00:21:41.880 self as its own

00:21:43.120 word, trusting

00:21:43.840 yourself, which

00:21:44.880 means the heart's

00:21:46.280 core, that deep

00:21:47.700 inner part of you

00:21:48.960 that maybe other

00:21:50.400 people don't see,

00:21:51.400 maybe you don't even

00:21:52.260 see, it's your soul.

00:21:54.180 Trusting that, which

00:21:55.160 is a divine

00:21:56.180 correspondence to

00:21:57.880 nature and to

00:21:59.040 divinity, versus

00:22:00.820 trusting your ego.

00:22:02.300 And so Ahab may let

00:22:04.360 ego get in the way,

00:22:05.820 or other leaders may

00:22:07.000 let ego get in the

00:22:08.040 way, and they

00:22:09.200 forsake facts.

00:22:10.100 But I do agree

00:22:11.960 with you that if

00:22:12.540 you're using instinct

00:22:14.080 properly, if you're

00:22:16.000 balanced, that can be

00:22:17.760 inspiring.

00:22:18.760 There's one other

00:22:19.380 illustration of this,

00:22:20.780 Brett, that might add

00:22:21.860 a layer to it.

00:22:22.960 In the chart, which

00:22:24.880 is, you know, not

00:22:25.960 dissimilar from the

00:22:27.760 quadrant in chapter

00:22:29.020 44, Ishmael is

00:22:30.880 saying, essentially,

00:22:32.080 Ahab wanted this

00:22:33.520 whale so badly.

00:22:34.820 He was so bent on

00:22:36.500 this obsession that

00:22:38.100 he says, all

00:22:39.520 possibilities would

00:22:40.780 become probabilities,

00:22:42.360 and as Ahab fondly

00:22:43.700 thought, every

00:22:44.860 probability, the

00:22:46.020 next thing to a

00:22:46.880 certainty.

00:22:48.060 And so, we all

00:22:49.100 know people like

00:22:49.860 this.

00:22:50.740 The people who,

00:22:51.920 they can't see

00:22:53.100 reality because they

00:22:54.700 want something so

00:22:55.880 badly.

00:22:56.760 And like, because I

00:22:57.780 want it to happen, I

00:22:59.180 can will it to

00:22:59.980 happen.

00:23:00.720 So it cuts both

00:23:01.640 ways, because the

00:23:02.520 more kind of sober,

00:23:04.640 realistic people may

00:23:05.940 say, well, that's

00:23:06.660 not going to, I

00:23:07.820 don't think that's

00:23:08.340 going to work, but

00:23:09.620 the fact is, don't

00:23:11.020 our heroes, don't

00:23:12.820 the really great

00:23:14.040 adventurers and

00:23:15.340 leaders and

00:23:16.180 inventors, don't

00:23:17.600 they have this

00:23:18.380 kind of little

00:23:19.060 strain of hyperbole

00:23:21.180 to them, this

00:23:21.760 little extreme

00:23:23.100 element to them?

00:23:25.160 We're going to

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00:24:26.380 manliness.

00:24:27.200 That's Shopify.com

00:24:28.520 slash manliness.

00:24:30.680 And now back to the

00:24:32.000 show.

00:24:32.640 Let's talk about some

00:24:33.200 of the characters more

00:24:34.040 specifically.

00:24:34.960 We've been discussing

00:24:36.020 them kind of on the

00:24:36.800 surface.

00:24:37.180 I want to go deeper

00:24:37.900 with this.

00:24:38.920 Yes.

00:24:39.100 Let's talk about the

00:24:39.980 narrator Ishmael.

00:24:41.940 Moby Dick starts off in a

00:24:43.240 famous way.

00:24:44.000 Everyone probably knows

00:24:44.900 the first line of Moby

00:24:45.740 Dick.

00:24:46.280 It's, call me Ishmael.

00:24:48.240 What does this line do for

00:24:49.840 the narrative, and what

00:24:51.180 does that tell us about

00:24:52.500 Ishmael that he started

00:24:54.020 off this story with, call

00:24:56.080 me Ishmael?

00:24:56.940 Yeah, that's a question

00:24:57.880 that people have been

00:24:58.940 wrestling with for 150

00:25:00.740 years, right?

00:25:01.820 What does call me Ishmael

00:25:04.200 mean?

00:25:05.360 On the surface, it's a

00:25:07.520 really folksy introduction

00:25:09.240 to our narrator, who's

00:25:10.800 like going to sit down and

00:25:11.840 tell you a nice wailing

00:25:13.220 yarn.

00:25:14.320 But on the other hand, it

00:25:16.140 might be a little shifty.

00:25:18.080 There's a difference between

00:25:18.900 saying, my name is Ishmael,

00:25:20.420 and call me Ishmael.

00:25:22.020 Call me Ishmael is kind of

00:25:23.580 establishing the authority

00:25:26.060 of who is telling the story

00:25:27.480 and who is going to be

00:25:28.500 listening to the story,

00:25:29.440 and at the mercy of who

00:25:31.460 is telling the story.

00:25:32.920 So, if somebody tells you,

00:25:34.740 call me blank, they are

00:25:36.720 kind of setting the terms

00:25:38.140 of the narrative.

00:25:40.080 In fact, we can go on to

00:25:41.260 the second sentence of

00:25:42.200 the story.

00:25:42.620 He says, call me Ishmael

00:25:44.500 some years ago, never mind

00:25:47.080 how long precisely.

00:25:48.620 So, it's already he's

00:25:49.680 telling us what to ask and

00:25:51.480 what not to ask.

00:25:52.880 He's a very engaging

00:25:54.160 narrator, but again, he's

00:25:55.400 also setting the terms.

00:25:56.960 We might also wonder

00:25:59.040 about the name Ishmael

00:26:00.740 because, I don't know,

00:26:02.520 how many Americans

00:26:03.320 are named Ishmael?

00:26:04.420 This is a quintessentially

00:26:05.560 American narrative,

00:26:07.460 and we have American

00:26:09.260 characters named

00:26:10.060 Ishmael and Ahab.

00:26:11.660 Yeah, why is that?

00:26:12.660 Is there something

00:26:13.100 symbolic about the name

00:26:14.660 Ishmael?

00:26:15.320 There must be.

00:26:16.280 So, when he says, call me

00:26:17.300 Ishmael, he is alluding

00:26:19.800 to a figure in the Bible,

00:26:22.000 the son of Hagar,

00:26:23.660 who is an outcast.

00:26:24.820 So, when he's saying, call

00:26:26.680 me Ishmael, he might be

00:26:28.960 suggesting that he serves

00:26:30.880 that same kind of role in

00:26:32.340 society or that same kind

00:26:33.780 of role in the narrative.

00:26:35.740 One of the things about

00:26:36.860 Ishmael, and I think this

00:26:38.020 is truly the genius thing

00:26:40.360 about the novel Moby Dick

00:26:42.260 or one of the genius

00:26:43.260 things, is that Ishmael is

00:26:45.460 not the protagonist and Ahab

00:26:47.960 is not the narrator.

00:26:50.140 Ishmael is kind of on the

00:26:51.440 periphery, off to the side,

00:26:53.340 observing.

00:26:55.020 Sometimes you don't even

00:26:56.020 know how he has access

00:26:57.820 to certain events that go

00:26:59.960 on on the Pequod, but he

00:27:02.420 can sometimes get into the

00:27:03.820 thoughts of Ahab.

00:27:05.500 Sometimes Ahab does

00:27:06.640 something all by himself,

00:27:08.300 even below deck, and you

00:27:10.240 wonder, how does Ishmael

00:27:12.520 know what is going on?

00:27:14.420 Does he have imaginative

00:27:16.320 powers?

00:27:16.920 Does he have supernatural

00:27:17.820 powers?

00:27:18.660 Is he a fiction writer?

00:27:19.820 Where does the truth and

00:27:23.100 imagination blend?

00:27:25.580 Yeah, this reminds me,

00:27:26.780 going back to The Great

00:27:27.440 Gatsby, it's the same

00:27:29.020 thing with Nick Carraway,

00:27:30.800 the narrator.

00:27:32.160 Yes.

00:27:32.480 And then Jay Gatsby is the

00:27:33.420 protagonist.

00:27:34.400 And my son just got done

00:27:36.360 reading The Great Gatsby,

00:27:37.760 and he had this funny

00:27:38.660 comedy, he's like, Nick

00:27:39.480 Carraway is just always

00:27:40.080 kind of lurking.

00:27:41.020 I don't know why he's

00:27:41.660 there in these different

00:27:43.020 situations, how he knows

00:27:43.980 what's going on, but he's

00:27:44.940 just kind of there in the

00:27:45.800 background.

00:27:46.860 I'm like, yeah, he is

00:27:47.580 kind of a lurker.

00:27:49.600 That is a great parallel.

00:27:51.820 It's exactly the same.

00:27:53.880 The central phrase for

00:27:56.600 Nick Carraway is, you

00:27:58.100 remember, and I'm sure

00:27:58.860 your son just read this,

00:28:00.780 when Nick Carraway is

00:28:01.940 talking about this party

00:28:02.920 that he's at, this really

00:28:04.000 kind of seedy party in

00:28:05.660 this apartment, and he

00:28:07.720 looks outside and he sees

00:28:09.180 kind of a bystander, and

00:28:11.600 he says, I was within and

00:28:14.320 without.

00:28:14.720 So simultaneously, he was

00:28:16.920 two places at the same

00:28:18.100 time, and he was two

00:28:19.680 people at the same time.

00:28:20.960 And that is the

00:28:23.160 brilliance of Gatsby, the

00:28:25.340 way it's narrated.

00:28:26.420 But of course, Moby Dick

00:28:28.000 came way earlier, and so

00:28:30.220 I'm sure that Fitzgerald

00:28:31.940 modeled it after Ishmael.

00:28:35.100 So Ishmael, as you said,

00:28:37.540 he's this really

00:28:38.000 enthusiastic guy.

00:28:39.500 He's really enthusiastic

00:28:40.520 about whaling, and he's

00:28:42.460 also kind of an outsider.

00:28:44.420 What does Ishmael

00:28:45.500 represent, do you think?

00:28:46.640 Because Melville's writing

00:28:48.420 symbolically in this novel,

00:28:49.760 so Ishmael must represent

00:28:51.040 some idea that he's

00:28:52.240 trying to convey.

00:28:54.020 Yeah, that's a really

00:28:54.940 good question.

00:28:56.060 I think Ishmael might be a

00:28:57.640 stand-in for Melville.

00:28:59.120 I think he's the writer.

00:29:00.540 I think he's the poet.

00:29:03.100 And so the poetic leaps

00:29:05.020 that Ishmael takes, the

00:29:06.960 philosophical and

00:29:08.220 psychological leaps that

00:29:09.780 he takes, he's really the

00:29:11.840 poet and the novelist

00:29:14.160 on the ship.

00:29:16.360 Ahab doesn't think on

00:29:17.880 those terms.

00:29:18.840 Ahab is thinking, must get

00:29:20.760 whale.

00:29:21.420 And if this novel were to

00:29:24.320 be narrated by Ahab, it

00:29:26.760 probably would be very

00:29:28.360 direct.

00:29:29.480 It would be much shorter.

00:29:31.580 But Ishmael is more

00:29:33.180 expansive.

00:29:34.500 And I think that is a,

00:29:35.700 it's kind of showing what

00:29:37.980 it's like, and this goes

00:29:39.120 back to the Nick Carraway

00:29:40.100 thing, what it shows to be

00:29:41.720 in the proximity of these

00:29:43.840 larger-than-life figures.

00:29:46.220 So Ishmael is kind of

00:29:47.720 awestruck.

00:29:49.020 He looks around with a

00:29:50.220 sense of wonder at

00:29:51.840 whales, at these great

00:29:54.700 captains, at all the

00:29:56.180 events, the violence.

00:29:58.140 And he's sort of our

00:30:00.040 stand-in and also Melville's

00:30:02.620 stand-in.

00:30:03.980 Let's talk about

00:30:04.340 Queequeg.

00:30:05.200 Queequeg has always been

00:30:06.260 one of my favorite

00:30:06.860 characters.

00:30:07.420 For some reason, I just

00:30:08.600 find him endearing.

00:30:10.840 Why do you think this

00:30:12.240 cannibal sailor dude from

00:30:14.700 the South Pacific is such an

00:30:16.420 endearing character?

00:30:18.080 Yeah.

00:30:18.640 First of all, he's great at

00:30:20.880 being a harpooner.

00:30:22.120 So he gets on the Pequod due

00:30:24.340 to merit, and that's

00:30:25.740 fantastic.

00:30:27.340 He's more qualified than

00:30:28.640 Ishmael to get on the

00:30:29.620 Pequod.

00:30:30.460 He's a great friend.

00:30:32.140 He's generous.

00:30:33.500 And I think, well, you can

00:30:34.960 answer why he's endearing to

00:30:36.480 you.

00:30:36.700 What he's endearing to me

00:30:37.700 about is that he's

00:30:39.000 self-reliant in the

00:30:40.500 Emersonian sense of being

00:30:41.920 self-reliant in terms of

00:30:43.560 being comfortable in his

00:30:45.180 own skin, which is in his

00:30:47.600 own heavily tattooed skin.

00:30:50.020 Imagine being a heavily

00:30:51.680 tattooed Pacific Islander

00:30:53.860 observing Ramadan,

00:30:55.880 carrying heads in your sack

00:30:57.500 in Manhattan in the middle

00:31:00.740 of the 19th century.

00:31:01.760 You would be extremely

00:31:03.080 conspicuous.

00:31:04.700 He has absolutely no

00:31:06.540 embarrassment about his own

00:31:08.300 actions.

00:31:09.160 They give him a wheelbarrow to

00:31:10.760 lug things around in.

00:31:11.920 He puts things in the

00:31:12.980 wheelbarrow and carries it

00:31:14.140 because he doesn't

00:31:14.980 understand how wheelbarrows

00:31:16.040 work.

00:31:17.120 And Ishmael's like, well,

00:31:17.780 didn't you feel silly?

00:31:19.320 He's like, no.

00:31:20.160 Why would I feel silly?

00:31:21.360 You know, I don't know how

00:31:22.160 to do it.

00:31:22.780 This isn't something I'm

00:31:24.060 familiar with.

00:31:24.780 So he's completely at ease

00:31:27.620 with who he is.

00:31:28.380 I find that very inspirational.

00:31:31.100 One of the great chapters in

00:31:32.920 Moby Dick is called The

00:31:33.920 Monkey Rope.

00:31:35.680 And in The Monkey Rope, you

00:31:37.020 remember this episode, Brett,

00:31:38.360 where Queequeg is on top of a

00:31:40.400 whale, you know, carving it

00:31:42.360 up.

00:31:43.200 And Ishmael is on the boat,

00:31:45.700 tethered to Queequeg with a

00:31:47.520 rope.

00:31:48.740 And Ishmael finally realizes if

00:31:51.300 Queequeg falls in, I fall in.

00:31:53.920 And if I let go, Queequeg

00:31:56.060 falls in.

00:31:57.120 And then he takes another

00:31:58.040 step back and goes, well,

00:31:58.980 isn't this just like every

00:32:00.740 human being all across the

00:32:02.580 world?

00:32:02.900 Is that we all are connected.

00:32:05.140 Even if it's not with a

00:32:06.240 tangible rope, if I'm driving

00:32:08.700 to work and someone swerves

00:32:10.140 in, I'm done.

00:32:11.580 If the pharmacist isn't paying

00:32:13.180 attention when he gives me my

00:32:14.580 medicine, I overdose and I'm

00:32:16.560 done.

00:32:17.040 So we all depend on one

00:32:18.900 another for survival.

00:32:21.400 We just don't see it on an

00:32:22.980 everyday basis.

00:32:23.760 And so Ishmael is having this

00:32:25.120 very physical connection to

00:32:27.400 Queequeg, but he also

00:32:29.220 appreciates this sublime

00:32:32.000 metaphysical connection he has

00:32:33.800 to him also.

00:32:35.220 Yeah, I love that insight that

00:32:36.540 Queequeg, he lacks that morbid

00:32:39.460 self-consciousness that a lot of

00:32:41.040 Westerners have.

00:32:42.400 And that's admirable.

00:32:44.000 Someone who's comfortable in

00:32:45.140 their own skin.

00:32:45.600 I think that really ties in.

00:32:47.420 I think Melville is probably

00:32:48.700 getting it at that idea in

00:32:50.440 American romanticism of just

00:32:53.140 what Emerson hit on.

00:32:54.240 You know, you got to be your

00:32:55.340 own guy.

00:32:56.080 As Thoreau said, march to the

00:32:57.400 beauty of your own drummer,

00:32:58.380 that sort of thing.

00:32:59.200 And that's admirable.

00:33:00.620 Emerson says, you know,

00:33:02.080 anybody can be themselves in

00:33:03.940 the privacy of their own room.

00:33:05.560 The key of being yourself, you

00:33:07.900 know, the capital S, the key to

00:33:09.780 being an adult, a fully

00:33:11.980 functioning human being is to be

00:33:13.660 yourself out in society.

00:33:15.360 That's the challenge.

00:33:17.060 When conformity is really

00:33:19.900 pressuring you to be like

00:33:22.080 everybody else.

00:33:22.760 He said, if you can maintain

00:33:23.800 who you really are, really are

00:33:25.640 deep down, that is greatness.

00:33:28.380 And Ishmael's looking around to

00:33:29.560 see like, oh, who's doing this?

00:33:31.080 Am I being, you know, he's kind

00:33:32.680 of like jittery.

00:33:34.100 Queequeg is in a foreign land at

00:33:36.900 complete ease.

00:33:38.380 Let's talk about Ahab.

00:33:39.300 He is one of the great figures in,

00:33:41.740 I'd say, world literature.

00:33:43.380 Yeah.

00:33:43.660 Part tragic hero, part madman.

00:33:47.040 How do you think Melville wants

00:33:48.680 us to understand Ahab and his

00:33:50.800 obsession for the whale?

00:33:54.080 Wow.

00:33:54.680 So many ways.

00:33:56.180 I think for starters, we can ask

00:33:58.740 ourselves if we are Ahab at all.

00:34:02.060 If there's, you know, in common

00:34:04.340 parlance, the white whale is like,

00:34:07.140 hey, what's your white whale?

00:34:08.340 It's like, what's the one thing

00:34:09.520 that you keep trying for that you

00:34:10.840 can never get?

00:34:11.820 And it's like, oh, I might be

00:34:13.580 obsessive about certain things that

00:34:15.280 I keep failing about or that I'm

00:34:17.480 destined to fail.

00:34:19.520 And I'm really driving myself crazy

00:34:21.260 about it.

00:34:21.780 What is your white whale?

00:34:23.280 So we might all be Ahab at one time

00:34:25.600 or another in our lives.

00:34:26.880 Hopefully we recognize it before

00:34:28.960 it's too late.

00:34:30.240 So at one point, it's about

00:34:32.380 obsession and monomania.

00:34:34.860 You know, only thinking about one

00:34:36.220 thing and how that.

00:34:38.180 Remember, Brett, I hope you're

00:34:40.040 comfortable with spoilers.

00:34:41.860 The way that Ahab dies, I think,

00:34:44.280 is so crucial.

00:34:45.320 Yeah, tell us about that.

00:34:46.220 Are we okay?

00:34:47.380 Yeah.

00:34:47.620 If you haven't read Moby Dick yet,

00:34:49.460 you can fast forward.

00:34:51.020 Let's talk about this.

00:34:52.300 Okay.

00:34:52.680 Well, the manner in which Ahab dies

00:34:55.240 is he's impaled by his own harpoon.

00:34:58.240 And how symbolic is that?

00:35:00.360 That what really ended up killing him

00:35:02.200 was not necessarily the whale.

00:35:03.980 It was his own violence towards the whale

00:35:07.860 got turned on himself.

00:35:09.820 I also think Ahab is a quintessential dictator.

00:35:14.060 So the Pequod is run in a fascist way.

00:35:19.000 And so Melville is talking a lot about

00:35:21.820 government and leadership.

00:35:23.940 One of the aspects of the Pequod

00:35:26.180 is that there are people from all over the world.

00:35:30.480 Almost every nationality and ethnicity

00:35:32.980 is represented on the Pequod.

00:35:35.240 It's like a floating United Nations

00:35:36.900 of which Ahab is the leader,

00:35:39.780 is the commander.

00:35:41.620 And Ahab, sooner than later,

00:35:44.880 gets everybody to do

00:35:46.640 exactly what he wants them to do.

00:35:49.120 The passion of his leadership,

00:35:50.740 his charisma,

00:35:51.960 his magnetism

00:35:53.240 has overwhelmed everybody else

00:35:56.480 on the Pequod

00:35:58.160 so that his doomed,

00:36:00.840 insane mission

00:36:01.960 becomes

00:36:03.040 unanimous.

00:36:04.460 That sounds,

00:36:05.760 I mean,

00:36:06.120 I know this is probably

00:36:07.240 not a great parallel,

00:36:08.760 but it reminds me

00:36:09.860 of Steve Jobs

00:36:11.340 when he was

00:36:12.680 the head of Apple.

00:36:13.560 People would talk about

00:36:14.420 how he would just,

00:36:15.760 because of his charisma

00:36:16.680 and his just obsession

00:36:18.040 with making the best product possible,

00:36:21.020 he would get people to do

00:36:22.660 what they thought was impossible.

00:36:24.760 Oh, interesting.

00:36:25.740 Yeah.

00:36:25.920 Does that,

00:36:26.980 the way you're saying it,

00:36:27.920 that almost sounds like

00:36:28.600 a positive application.

00:36:30.000 Well, so, I mean,

00:36:31.180 it was positive

00:36:31.840 because we got the iPod

00:36:32.840 and we got the iPhone,

00:36:33.700 but the way you hear people

00:36:35.240 describe working for Steve Jobs,

00:36:37.060 like he was a real jerk.

00:36:38.720 It was awful working under him

00:36:41.100 because he was just,

00:36:42.080 he was mean.

00:36:42.920 And he even recognized that

00:36:44.000 as he was dying.

00:36:44.800 He's like,

00:36:45.000 yeah,

00:36:45.100 I probably could have done

00:36:45.840 things differently.

00:36:46.820 But maybe not.

00:36:47.820 Maybe he couldn't have done

00:36:48.740 things differently

00:36:49.240 to get accomplished

00:36:50.380 what he accomplished.

00:36:52.620 What I think about sometimes

00:36:54.540 when Ahab gives that first pep talk

00:36:57.500 where he gathers everybody around

00:36:59.320 and he essentially says,

00:37:00.940 hey, you know why you're here?

00:37:02.220 We're here to kill one whale,

00:37:04.240 Moby Dick.

00:37:05.280 And Starbuck is like,

00:37:06.640 hey, I thought we were going to do,

00:37:08.080 you know,

00:37:08.420 see how many whales we could catch

00:37:09.960 so we could make a lot of money.

00:37:11.440 He's like,

00:37:11.760 no, no, no.

00:37:12.320 We're getting one whale.

00:37:13.460 We're going to get vengeance

00:37:14.460 on the one whale who injured me.

00:37:16.480 What that makes me think of

00:37:17.880 is to look at a Nazi rally

00:37:20.100 from the 1930s

00:37:21.420 and how Hitler

00:37:23.440 was so passionate,

00:37:26.720 filled with evil

00:37:27.940 and hate

00:37:28.900 and madness.

00:37:30.500 You could tell

00:37:31.380 the power of his

00:37:33.220 insanity

00:37:34.260 was greater

00:37:36.300 than the emotions

00:37:37.160 that anybody else

00:37:37.920 in that room had.

00:37:40.520 And Ahab even knows it.

00:37:42.140 Ahab knows

00:37:42.900 what he's saying

00:37:43.780 might be ruinous

00:37:45.520 and wrong,

00:37:46.280 but he also knows

00:37:47.320 there's nobody

00:37:48.100 who is his equal.

00:37:50.080 Nobody wants it

00:37:51.480 as bad as he does.

00:37:53.100 Nobody wants

00:37:53.760 the opposite

00:37:54.440 as bad as he wants

00:37:55.600 what he wants.

00:37:57.020 So,

00:37:57.720 he overwhelms them.

00:37:59.700 I mean,

00:38:00.480 when I read Ahab,

00:38:02.300 I think Melville

00:38:02.940 paints a really complicated

00:38:04.480 character.

00:38:06.240 On the one hand,

00:38:06.740 yeah,

00:38:06.920 his obsession

00:38:07.500 ended up killing him

00:38:08.820 and lots of other people

00:38:10.840 too.

00:38:11.600 Yes.

00:38:12.040 But on the other hand,

00:38:13.620 I mean,

00:38:14.320 Melville does paint

00:38:15.960 Ahab

00:38:16.500 in a kind of

00:38:17.600 romantic light

00:38:19.120 in a way.

00:38:20.260 He's got on a bad course,

00:38:22.580 but there's something

00:38:23.020 attractive

00:38:23.560 about this dynamism.

00:38:25.940 And I feel like

00:38:26.700 Melville would say

00:38:28.480 there's a role

00:38:30.020 for passion,

00:38:31.020 this whole

00:38:31.420 American romanticism thing,

00:38:33.320 but it's got to be

00:38:34.280 harnessed

00:38:34.740 in the right way.

00:38:36.020 You make a great point.

00:38:37.020 So,

00:38:37.240 first of all,

00:38:37.840 just a couple of things

00:38:38.880 about that.

00:38:39.380 First of all,

00:38:40.040 I think

00:38:40.500 there's a moment

00:38:41.640 where after Ahab

00:38:42.880 kind of riles

00:38:44.420 the entire

00:38:45.440 Pequod up

00:38:46.540 and everybody's

00:38:47.300 on his side,

00:38:48.200 there's a line

00:38:49.060 that should make

00:38:50.100 your heart sink

00:38:50.820 where the beginning

00:38:52.220 of chapter 41,

00:38:53.940 Ishmael says,

00:38:55.500 I, Ishmael,

00:38:56.200 was one of that crew.

00:38:57.560 My shouts

00:38:58.160 had gone up

00:38:58.840 with the rest.

00:38:59.740 My oath

00:39:00.160 had been welded

00:39:00.780 with theirs.

00:39:01.880 And stronger I shouted,

00:39:03.280 more did I hammer

00:39:04.160 and clinch my oath

00:39:05.580 because of the dread

00:39:06.940 in my soul.

00:39:08.480 A wild,

00:39:09.500 mystical,

00:39:10.260 sympathetical feeling

00:39:11.260 was in me.

00:39:12.480 Ahab's quenchless feud

00:39:14.080 seemed mine.

00:39:15.180 And that is for anybody

00:39:17.740 and it doesn't have

00:39:18.860 to be grandiose

00:39:20.320 like politics

00:39:21.480 or religion

00:39:22.520 or,

00:39:23.400 you know,

00:39:23.980 life and death.

00:39:24.960 It could be any time

00:39:26.260 you went along

00:39:27.860 with something

00:39:28.440 that you deep down

00:39:29.680 knew better than,

00:39:30.900 but you got

00:39:31.840 overpowered.

00:39:33.400 And the other thing

00:39:35.060 that your comment

00:39:35.960 made me think about,

00:39:37.120 Brett,

00:39:37.460 was there's a moment

00:39:39.300 where Ahab

00:39:41.060 is really humanized,

00:39:42.660 where he's all by himself,

00:39:44.900 at least.

00:39:45.940 He thinks he's all by himself

00:39:46.920 or perhaps Ishmael's

00:39:48.160 looking on.

00:39:49.460 And he leans over,

00:39:50.920 he's thinking about his wife

00:39:52.020 and he's thinking about

00:39:53.340 what his obsession

00:39:55.080 and what his career

00:39:56.640 as a sailor

00:39:58.180 has done to his family

00:39:59.900 and how he's spent

00:40:01.680 way more time

00:40:02.640 out on the ocean

00:40:03.580 than on land.

00:40:05.020 And one teardrop

00:40:06.880 drops into the water.

00:40:09.120 And what Ishmael surmises

00:40:10.600 is there was

00:40:12.260 more substance

00:40:14.200 in that one teardrop

00:40:16.060 than there was

00:40:17.060 in the rest of the ocean

00:40:18.020 combined

00:40:18.700 because of just

00:40:20.220 how long did it take

00:40:21.860 that tear

00:40:22.620 to form?

00:40:24.120 Probably he had never

00:40:25.000 done it before.

00:40:26.560 But there is that,

00:40:27.340 it's like a

00:40:28.040 kind of a yin and yang

00:40:29.860 type thing

00:40:30.580 where,

00:40:32.060 yes,

00:40:32.860 Ahab is all one thing,

00:40:34.220 but there's one dot

00:40:35.500 of humanity

00:40:36.320 and sanity

00:40:37.440 and family man

00:40:39.460 where he kind of

00:40:40.720 remembers who he really is.

00:40:43.160 Let's talk about

00:40:44.000 another character,

00:40:45.020 really important character,

00:40:46.220 the whale,

00:40:47.320 Moby Dick.

00:40:49.280 I'm sure

00:40:50.060 lots of people

00:40:50.940 have written essays

00:40:51.740 when they're in high school

00:40:52.520 like,

00:40:52.840 well,

00:40:53.040 the white whale

00:40:53.980 represents this.

00:40:55.540 What do you think

00:40:56.120 the white whale represents?

00:40:57.880 Okay,

00:40:58.160 so let's take

00:40:58.940 one baby step back

00:41:00.220 and I think

00:41:00.840 a lot of

00:41:02.040 readers of literature

00:41:03.580 who were

00:41:04.740 asked to read this book

00:41:07.080 let's say in high school

00:41:07.900 and 10th grade

00:41:08.580 seems actually

00:41:09.200 very early

00:41:09.960 to read this book.

00:41:11.280 But let's say

00:41:11.940 they did

00:41:13.320 and their professor,

00:41:15.060 their teacher said,

00:41:16.160 now we're all

00:41:17.200 going to write essays

00:41:17.760 about what

00:41:18.420 Moby Dick represents,

00:41:19.880 what the whale represents.

00:41:21.500 And a common

00:41:22.480 complaint is,

00:41:23.300 well,

00:41:23.420 why does the whale

00:41:24.100 have to represent something?

00:41:25.820 Why can't it just be a whale?

00:41:27.060 Why can't it just be?

00:41:28.200 And we have to have

00:41:29.580 a discussion

00:41:30.200 in that class

00:41:31.320 about

00:41:31.760 there is such a thing

00:41:33.380 as literary

00:41:34.500 symbols.

00:41:35.660 Things do represent

00:41:37.120 other things.

00:41:38.900 And we don't really need

00:41:41.000 to presume this.

00:41:42.940 We don't have to guess

00:41:43.840 about this

00:41:44.300 because actually

00:41:45.200 Ishmael tells us

00:41:46.920 what the whale

00:41:48.160 represents.

00:41:49.580 He says in

00:41:50.660 chapter 41

00:41:51.700 which is called

00:41:52.840 Moby Dick

00:41:53.540 and let me just quote

00:41:54.580 a sentence or two,

00:41:56.340 all that most

00:41:57.840 maddens and torments,

00:41:59.500 all that stirs up

00:42:00.500 the lees of things,

00:42:01.960 all truth with

00:42:02.860 malice in it,

00:42:04.020 all that cracks

00:42:05.100 the sinews

00:42:05.800 and cakes the brain,

00:42:07.280 all the subtle

00:42:08.240 demonisms of life

00:42:09.640 and thought,

00:42:10.620 all evil

00:42:11.560 to crazy Ahab

00:42:12.880 were visibly

00:42:14.000 personified

00:42:14.760 and made

00:42:15.740 practically

00:42:16.280 assailable

00:42:16.800 in Moby Dick.

00:42:19.020 So Ishmael

00:42:20.160 is saying

00:42:20.620 everything

00:42:21.420 bad about

00:42:22.440 the world,

00:42:23.520 Ahab

00:42:24.020 ascribed

00:42:24.860 to this one

00:42:25.660 particular whale.

00:42:27.200 Now,

00:42:27.900 it's very important

00:42:29.160 that Ishmael

00:42:29.900 is saying

00:42:30.300 that is what

00:42:31.360 the whale

00:42:31.820 symbolizes

00:42:32.840 to Ahab.

00:42:34.260 The thing about

00:42:34.840 a symbol

00:42:35.340 is that

00:42:36.140 it means

00:42:36.500 different things

00:42:37.240 to different

00:42:37.880 people.

00:42:38.500 An American

00:42:38.940 flag

00:42:39.480 will mean

00:42:40.200 something

00:42:40.480 different

00:42:40.820 to an

00:42:41.200 American

00:42:41.600 and someone

00:42:42.460 from

00:42:43.140 a different

00:42:43.800 country.

00:42:44.860 A cross

00:42:45.540 means something

00:42:46.220 different

00:42:46.600 to a Christian

00:42:47.740 and a non-Christian

00:42:48.940 and this is

00:42:49.980 the way

00:42:50.400 symbols are.

00:42:51.140 They mean

00:42:51.400 different things

00:42:52.040 to different

00:42:52.440 people.

00:42:53.440 We almost

00:42:54.340 started our

00:42:54.860 conversation

00:42:55.360 by talking

00:42:55.840 about the

00:42:56.120 difference

00:42:56.360 between

00:42:56.600 objective

00:42:57.240 and subjective.

00:42:58.920 So,

00:42:59.460 we have to

00:42:59.960 be very

00:43:00.420 careful

00:43:00.880 that the

00:43:01.540 whale

00:43:01.840 doesn't

00:43:02.560 mean the

00:43:02.940 same

00:43:03.160 thing

00:43:03.540 to

00:43:04.120 everybody.

00:43:05.420 Ahab

00:43:05.660 is trying

00:43:06.760 to make

00:43:07.340 Moby Dick

00:43:08.160 mean the

00:43:08.980 same thing

00:43:09.340 to everybody.

00:43:09.940 He wants

00:43:10.520 everybody

00:43:11.080 to hate

00:43:11.960 it as

00:43:12.340 much

00:43:12.560 as he

00:43:13.000 does.

00:43:13.740 But,

00:43:14.100 in fact,

00:43:14.800 the very

00:43:15.220 next chapter,

00:43:16.360 chapter 42,

00:43:18.000 which is called

00:43:18.680 The Whiteness

00:43:19.340 of the Whale,

00:43:20.340 begins when

00:43:21.100 Ishmael says,

00:43:22.400 what the

00:43:22.840 white whale

00:43:23.360 was to Ahab

00:43:24.660 has been

00:43:25.360 hinted.

00:43:26.260 What at

00:43:26.660 times he

00:43:27.740 was to

00:43:28.280 me,

00:43:29.060 as yet

00:43:29.540 remains

00:43:30.040 unsaid.

00:43:31.720 So,

00:43:32.520 for every

00:43:33.680 person in

00:43:34.660 the book

00:43:35.080 and for

00:43:35.560 every reader,

00:43:36.860 the white

00:43:37.500 whale probably

00:43:38.280 means something

00:43:38.980 different.

00:43:39.780 I know that's

00:43:40.400 frustrating and

00:43:41.340 I hope it

00:43:41.740 doesn't sound

00:43:42.120 like I'm

00:43:42.480 equivocating,

00:43:43.640 but what it

00:43:44.180 really is,

00:43:44.620 it's a

00:43:44.900 celebration of

00:43:45.980 subjective

00:43:46.740 perception over

00:43:47.720 objective

00:43:48.200 reality.

00:43:50.180 And so,

00:43:50.820 okay,

00:43:51.380 Moby Dick

00:43:51.740 represents evil

00:43:53.140 to Ahab

00:43:54.440 and he has

00:43:54.880 to kill it.

00:43:55.620 what does

00:43:56.560 it mean

00:43:56.880 to

00:43:57.500 Ishmael?

00:43:58.740 Yeah,

00:43:59.240 so you're

00:43:59.900 exactly,

00:44:00.260 so Ahab

00:44:00.740 is saying,

00:44:01.620 once I

00:44:02.260 kill Moby

00:44:02.760 Dick,

00:44:03.400 everything will

00:44:03.820 be better.

00:44:04.640 And now we

00:44:05.040 may look at

00:44:05.640 that and

00:44:05.880 go,

00:44:06.340 like,

00:44:06.580 what is

00:44:06.900 going to

00:44:07.140 happen?

00:44:07.500 Once he

00:44:07.840 kills

00:44:08.040 Moby Dick,

00:44:08.700 he's going

00:44:09.320 to live

00:44:09.520 happily ever

00:44:10.080 after?

00:44:10.500 Do we

00:44:10.740 really think

00:44:11.240 that's

00:44:11.580 what's

00:44:11.880 going to

00:44:12.180 happen?

00:44:12.440 So,

00:44:14.240 in Ishmael's

00:44:15.300 case,

00:44:15.740 in chapter

00:44:16.140 42,

00:44:16.840 he takes

00:44:17.340 a philosophical

00:44:18.180 point of

00:44:19.160 view.

00:44:20.140 Chapter 42

00:44:20.840 is called

00:44:21.300 The Whiteness

00:44:22.040 of the Whale.

00:44:23.040 And he

00:44:23.360 says,

00:44:23.800 do you know

00:44:24.080 what really

00:44:24.740 bothers me

00:44:25.760 about Moby

00:44:26.320 Dick,

00:44:26.540 the thing

00:44:26.840 that really

00:44:27.380 kind of

00:44:28.000 exasperates

00:44:28.800 me,

00:44:29.300 is that

00:44:29.840 he's

00:44:30.040 white.

00:44:30.780 And by

00:44:31.340 that,

00:44:31.840 it's saying

00:44:32.460 he's

00:44:33.180 blank.

00:44:33.960 He has

00:44:34.300 no definition.

00:44:35.520 It's his

00:44:36.020 absence.

00:44:37.380 He says,

00:44:38.540 vague,

00:44:39.460 nameless

00:44:39.920 horror.

00:44:40.460 So,

00:44:41.580 what frightens

00:44:42.600 Ishmael

00:44:43.400 is that

00:44:44.600 he's a

00:44:45.100 white whale.

00:44:46.860 And it

00:44:47.240 could mean

00:44:47.620 anything,

00:44:48.580 in that sense.

00:44:49.380 It means

00:44:50.160 whatever you

00:44:50.840 think it

00:44:51.160 means.

00:44:51.660 You are

00:44:52.360 projecting

00:44:52.940 your own

00:44:53.660 anxieties,

00:44:55.200 fears,

00:44:56.440 prejudices,

00:44:57.560 onto this

00:44:58.300 blank screen.

00:44:59.800 If you've

00:45:00.200 ever had to

00:45:01.040 write something

00:45:01.680 and you look

00:45:02.240 at a white

00:45:02.700 sheet of

00:45:03.100 paper,

00:45:04.380 that could

00:45:05.200 be very

00:45:05.780 anxiety-causing.

00:45:07.560 But here

00:45:07.900 he's saying,

00:45:08.880 and this is

00:45:09.320 kind of

00:45:09.540 counterintuitive

00:45:10.260 because I

00:45:11.440 think our

00:45:11.860 culture,

00:45:12.380 we look at

00:45:12.760 white as

00:45:13.580 pure and

00:45:14.780 clean and

00:45:16.300 innocent.

00:45:17.640 And here

00:45:17.940 he's saying,

00:45:18.680 you know what

00:45:19.100 it's like?

00:45:19.560 It's like if

00:45:20.040 you're caught

00:45:20.520 in a white

00:45:21.160 out or an

00:45:22.220 avalanche and

00:45:23.780 your surroundings

00:45:24.920 have no

00:45:25.820 definition.

00:45:27.160 In 1851,

00:45:28.860 the early

00:45:29.300 19th century,

00:45:30.500 if you looked

00:45:31.120 at the map

00:45:31.760 of America,

00:45:33.420 there were

00:45:33.720 white spots,

00:45:34.780 there were

00:45:35.140 white areas,

00:45:36.600 things that

00:45:37.020 hadn't been

00:45:37.700 fully settled

00:45:39.640 and explored.

00:45:41.960 And romantic

00:45:43.140 writers,

00:45:43.680 Emerson and

00:45:44.260 Thoreau,

00:45:44.740 were like,

00:45:45.440 don't explore

00:45:46.480 externally,

00:45:47.540 don't explore

00:45:48.060 the continent,

00:45:49.140 go within.

00:45:50.560 Explore the

00:45:51.240 white spots

00:45:52.000 in your own

00:45:52.960 brain,

00:45:53.740 the areas

00:45:54.620 of your own

00:45:55.480 psyche and

00:45:56.500 consciousness

00:45:56.980 that you

00:45:57.480 haven't thought

00:45:58.220 of before.

00:46:00.400 Yeah,

00:46:00.500 there's a

00:46:00.780 great line

00:46:01.380 in that

00:46:02.080 chapter,

00:46:02.460 chapter 42,

00:46:03.660 talking about

00:46:04.500 how the

00:46:05.500 whiteness,

00:46:06.300 it's this

00:46:06.800 void,

00:46:07.200 this blankness,

00:46:07.700 and how

00:46:08.000 it's

00:46:08.780 anxiety

00:46:09.180 producing,

00:46:10.200 sort of

00:46:10.460 existentially

00:46:11.020 anxiety

00:46:11.700 producing.

00:46:12.400 He says

00:46:12.800 this,

00:46:13.660 is it

00:46:14.060 that by

00:46:14.440 its

00:46:14.860 indefiniteness,

00:46:15.880 it shadows

00:46:16.440 forth the

00:46:16.940 heartless

00:46:17.280 voids and

00:46:17.760 immensities

00:46:18.180 of the

00:46:18.420 universe,

00:46:19.320 and thus

00:46:19.700 stabs us

00:46:20.260 from behind

00:46:20.820 with the

00:46:21.300 thought of

00:46:21.640 annihilation,

00:46:22.780 when beholding

00:46:23.360 the white

00:46:23.740 depths of

00:46:24.300 the Milky

00:46:24.640 Way?

00:46:25.440 Incredible.

00:46:26.600 That's

00:46:26.880 incredible.

00:46:27.360 Yeah,

00:46:27.520 if you are

00:46:28.080 an imaginative

00:46:29.100 person,

00:46:29.960 if you can

00:46:30.500 project,

00:46:31.580 and then you

00:46:32.060 kind of like

00:46:32.500 can spiral

00:46:33.060 out of

00:46:33.440 control,

00:46:33.840 because it's

00:46:34.500 just blank,

00:46:35.160 there's a

00:46:36.200 line in

00:46:37.180 Walt Whitman's

00:46:38.440 Song of

00:46:38.880 Myself,

00:46:39.520 which is

00:46:39.860 1855,

00:46:41.440 and I might

00:46:42.400 butcher it,

00:46:42.960 but I'll do

00:46:43.580 my best.

00:46:44.560 He says,

00:46:45.500 the white

00:46:45.880 topped

00:46:46.380 mountains are

00:46:47.620 in the

00:46:47.880 distance,

00:46:48.420 I fling my

00:46:49.420 fancies toward

00:46:50.640 them.

00:46:51.360 Fling my

00:46:52.200 fancies toward

00:46:52.820 them.

00:46:52.960 So he's

00:46:53.600 looking essentially

00:46:54.280 at a white

00:46:54.940 easel or white

00:46:56.100 canvas,

00:46:56.620 and he's like,

00:46:58.120 whatever's in

00:46:58.640 my brain,

00:46:59.200 that is going

00:47:00.160 to project

00:47:00.660 onto it.

00:47:01.340 And that's

00:47:02.480 scary.

00:47:03.020 And what

00:47:04.020 Ishmael is

00:47:04.680 gesturing towards

00:47:06.020 is that we

00:47:07.220 really, as

00:47:07.860 human beings,

00:47:08.480 seek definition.

00:47:09.960 We seek

00:47:10.500 boundaries.

00:47:11.400 We want

00:47:11.760 things to be

00:47:12.640 contained.

00:47:13.980 And if the

00:47:14.960 white whale is

00:47:15.800 so enormous,

00:47:17.140 and he's

00:47:17.600 white, we

00:47:18.580 don't know if

00:47:19.880 there's any

00:47:20.560 end to it.

00:47:21.140 It could be

00:47:21.600 just an

00:47:22.060 infinite beast.

00:47:24.260 So you're

00:47:25.160 a Hemingway

00:47:25.560 guy.

00:47:26.160 You have a

00:47:26.740 podcast called

00:47:27.760 One True

00:47:28.320 Podcast, and

00:47:29.120 it comes from

00:47:30.100 this line,

00:47:30.760 from Ernest

00:47:32.300 Hemingway in

00:47:33.400 A Moveable

00:47:33.800 Feast, where

00:47:34.660 he describes

00:47:35.380 how he

00:47:36.220 writes.

00:47:36.740 And he

00:47:36.960 says,

00:47:37.480 all you have

00:47:38.640 to do is

00:47:39.060 write one

00:47:39.880 true sentence.

00:47:41.160 Write the

00:47:41.560 truest sentence

00:47:42.340 that you

00:47:42.800 know.

00:47:43.880 What do

00:47:44.520 you think

00:47:44.860 is the

00:47:45.420 true sentence

00:47:46.260 in Moby

00:47:47.180 Dick?

00:47:48.560 Well, that

00:47:49.340 question is

00:47:50.040 just, now I

00:47:50.740 realize how

00:47:51.180 evil that

00:47:51.840 question is,

00:47:52.540 because there's

00:47:53.160 about 90

00:47:54.100 One True

00:47:54.600 Sentences from

00:47:55.480 Moby

00:47:56.680 Dick.

00:47:56.960 I can choose

00:47:57.660 one of my

00:47:58.580 many One True

00:47:59.440 Sentences.

00:47:59.860 So, as

00:48:01.580 the novel

00:48:02.520 goes along,

00:48:03.540 and this

00:48:03.880 might be a

00:48:04.320 little bit of

00:48:04.700 a key for

00:48:05.260 people who

00:48:05.760 get frustrated

00:48:06.540 with some

00:48:07.200 of Ishmael's

00:48:08.240 digressions,

00:48:09.540 we start to

00:48:10.220 see a little

00:48:10.680 bit of a

00:48:11.100 pattern in

00:48:11.920 how Melville

00:48:12.820 structures

00:48:13.900 Moby

00:48:14.360 Dick.

00:48:15.280 What he'll

00:48:15.740 do is he'll

00:48:16.280 spend a few

00:48:17.500 pages of a

00:48:18.480 chapter talking

00:48:19.220 about some

00:48:19.760 arcane aspect

00:48:21.020 of whaling,

00:48:22.700 or whales,

00:48:23.820 or the

00:48:24.520 practice of

00:48:25.280 whaling, and

00:48:25.880 you're saying,

00:48:26.400 why am I

00:48:26.800 engaged with

00:48:27.500 this?

00:48:27.720 Why do I

00:48:28.060 need to know

00:48:28.520 this?

00:48:29.700 And then

00:48:30.500 at the

00:48:30.800 very end,

00:48:31.660 maybe the

00:48:32.000 last sentence

00:48:32.720 or the

00:48:33.060 last paragraph,

00:48:34.360 Ishmael will

00:48:34.860 tie it in to

00:48:36.200 a larger

00:48:37.440 universal or

00:48:38.600 metaphysical

00:48:39.100 concept, and

00:48:40.580 you're like,

00:48:41.100 oh, now I

00:48:42.320 see why we're

00:48:42.900 talking about

00:48:43.460 it.

00:48:43.660 And it's

00:48:44.080 absolutely

00:48:44.740 brilliant.

00:48:45.400 Many of

00:48:45.860 these chapters

00:48:46.360 are absolutely

00:48:47.140 brilliant.

00:48:48.220 One such

00:48:48.960 chapter is

00:48:50.300 called Fast

00:48:51.560 Fish and

00:48:52.540 Loose Fish,

00:48:53.380 and this is

00:48:54.120 chapter 89.

00:48:55.200 this very

00:48:56.820 small chapter

00:48:57.620 is essentially

00:48:59.120 a rule book

00:49:00.180 about whaling,

00:49:01.420 which is to

00:49:01.800 say, what do

00:49:02.700 you do when

00:49:03.280 two rival

00:49:04.480 ships are

00:49:05.660 both pursuing

00:49:06.380 the same

00:49:06.820 whale?

00:49:07.180 How do you

00:49:07.780 know who

00:49:08.420 gets it?

00:49:09.420 And the

00:49:10.000 short answer

00:49:10.600 is, whichever

00:49:11.480 ship is fast

00:49:12.720 to it, or

00:49:13.440 attached to

00:49:14.180 it, and if

00:49:15.100 the whale is

00:49:15.700 loose, if

00:49:16.720 it's unclaimed,

00:49:18.440 then whichever

00:49:19.260 ship becomes

00:49:20.520 fast to it

00:49:21.240 gets this

00:49:22.400 whale.

00:49:22.800 And you're

00:49:23.260 like, well,

00:49:24.000 this is kind

00:49:24.500 of interesting.

00:49:25.240 I never

00:49:25.580 thought that

00:49:26.340 there was a

00:49:27.020 rule book

00:49:27.380 about whaling,

00:49:28.240 but I guess

00:49:28.900 there's rule

00:49:29.440 books about

00:49:29.800 everything.

00:49:30.520 That's kind

00:49:31.140 of interesting

00:49:31.640 trivia, and

00:49:33.620 that's that.

00:49:34.600 But towards

00:49:35.520 the end of

00:49:36.080 this chapter,

00:49:37.600 Ishmael begins

00:49:38.560 to talk about

00:49:40.460 being fast and

00:49:41.800 being loose in

00:49:43.140 the sense of

00:49:44.400 metaphysics, or

00:49:45.760 your soul, or

00:49:46.640 your spirit, or

00:49:47.600 your psyche.

00:49:49.400 And then, let

00:49:50.120 me just end the

00:49:50.940 chapter the way

00:49:51.940 he does.

00:49:52.360 He says,

00:49:53.220 What are the

00:49:53.840 rights of man

00:49:54.840 and the

00:49:55.360 liberties of

00:49:55.900 the world, but

00:49:56.640 loose fish?

00:49:57.560 What all men's

00:49:58.520 minds and

00:49:59.000 opinions, but

00:49:59.780 loose fish?

00:50:00.780 What is the

00:50:01.400 principle of

00:50:02.020 religious belief

00:50:02.900 in them, but

00:50:03.820 a loose fish?

00:50:04.920 What, to the

00:50:05.760 ostentatious,

00:50:07.240 smuggling

00:50:07.620 verbalists, are

00:50:09.040 the thoughts of

00:50:09.700 thinkers, but

00:50:10.740 loose fish?

00:50:11.860 What is the

00:50:12.620 great globe

00:50:13.300 itself, but a

00:50:14.280 loose fish?

00:50:15.300 And what are

00:50:15.780 you, reader, but

00:50:16.860 a loose fish?

00:50:18.160 And a fast

00:50:18.820 fish, too.

00:50:19.360 And that

00:50:21.000 last sentence

00:50:21.840 brings it

00:50:23.140 home and

00:50:23.660 kind of twists

00:50:24.340 the knife in

00:50:25.240 where he's

00:50:25.740 basically saying,

00:50:27.020 okay, so

00:50:28.000 what are

00:50:29.000 things that

00:50:29.600 you are

00:50:30.420 susceptible to

00:50:31.720 being influenced

00:50:33.120 by?

00:50:35.000 It goes back

00:50:35.800 to a lot of

00:50:36.380 the strains of

00:50:37.400 conversation,

00:50:38.240 Brett, that

00:50:38.560 we've just been

00:50:39.060 having, which is,

00:50:39.600 okay, who

00:50:40.100 could come

00:50:40.500 along and

00:50:41.140 convince you to

00:50:41.840 do something

00:50:42.380 that you

00:50:43.120 wouldn't

00:50:43.820 ordinarily do?

00:50:45.280 And then he

00:50:45.880 goes back to,

00:50:46.760 but what are

00:50:47.180 you fast to?

00:50:48.340 What has

00:50:49.240 already claimed

00:50:50.060 you in ways

00:50:51.200 that you might

00:50:51.700 not even be

00:50:52.200 aware of, like

00:50:52.880 who ain't a

00:50:53.460 slave?

00:50:54.120 What are you

00:50:55.080 imprisoned by?

00:50:56.740 Have you ever

00:50:57.300 taken a step

00:50:57.940 back to say,

00:50:59.280 what am I

00:50:59.860 loose to and

00:51:00.800 what am I

00:51:01.200 fast to?

00:51:02.300 It's an

00:51:02.900 absolutely

00:51:03.420 brilliant way

00:51:04.560 to parallel

00:51:05.660 this kind of

00:51:07.180 weird, trivial

00:51:08.620 law of

00:51:09.460 wailing and

00:51:10.840 the way we

00:51:12.020 all experience

00:51:12.940 life.

00:51:14.840 That's

00:51:14.940 amazing.

00:51:15.800 Well, Mark,

00:51:16.600 this has been a

00:51:16.900 great conversation.

00:51:17.640 I hope it's

00:51:18.100 inspired some

00:51:18.720 people to go

00:51:19.280 pick up their

00:51:19.920 old copy of

00:51:21.040 Moby Dick and

00:51:22.240 give it a

00:51:22.740 reread.

00:51:23.560 Where can

00:51:23.840 people go to

00:51:24.300 learn more

00:51:24.620 about your

00:51:25.040 work and

00:51:25.380 what you

00:51:25.580 do?

00:51:26.680 So I am

00:51:27.460 actually hosting

00:51:28.160 two podcasts.

00:51:29.520 One, as you

00:51:29.980 say, is

00:51:30.260 Hemingway

00:51:30.800 specific called

00:51:32.040 One True

00:51:32.540 Podcast.

00:51:33.520 The other is

00:51:34.920 called the

00:51:35.600 Norton Library

00:51:36.760 Podcast, of

00:51:37.720 which there are

00:51:38.380 two beautiful

00:51:39.500 episodes about

00:51:41.060 Moby Dick with

00:51:41.980 the editor,

00:51:43.240 Jeffrey Insko.

00:51:43.980 And I have

00:51:46.140 recently published

00:51:47.060 an edition of

00:51:48.720 Hemingway's A

00:51:49.480 Farewell to

00:51:49.940 Arms with the

00:51:51.220 Norton Library

00:51:51.860 that I hope

00:51:53.560 everybody enjoys.

00:51:55.020 Fantastic.

00:51:55.440 Well, Mark

00:51:55.720 Torino, thanks for

00:51:56.280 time.

00:51:56.440 It's been a

00:51:56.660 pleasure.

00:51:57.540 My pleasure,

00:51:58.320 Brett.

00:51:58.500 Thank you.

00:51:59.840 My guest

00:52:00.500 today is Mark

00:52:00.860 Torino.

00:52:01.320 He's a professor

00:52:02.020 of American

00:52:02.480 literature.

00:52:03.180 Check out the

00:52:03.540 podcast he hosts.

00:52:04.440 He's got the

00:52:04.820 Norton Library

00:52:05.500 podcast as well

00:52:06.460 as One True

00:52:07.160 Podcast, which

00:52:07.880 is about

00:52:08.200 Hemingway.

00:52:09.140 They're available

00:52:09.520 on all podcast

00:52:10.520 players.

00:52:11.400 Also, check out

00:52:11.880 our show notes

00:52:12.220 at aom.is

00:52:13.180 slash Moby Dick.

00:52:14.180 We'll find links

00:52:14.640 to resources.

00:52:15.380 We delve deeper

00:52:15.900 into this topic.

00:52:24.120 Well, that wraps up

00:52:25.160 another edition of

00:52:25.960 the AOM podcast.

00:52:26.960 Make sure to check

00:52:27.460 out our website at

00:52:28.080 artofmanliness.com and

00:52:29.120 make sure to check out

00:52:29.760 our new newsletter.

00:52:30.620 It's called Dying

00:52:31.200 Breed.

00:52:31.800 Sign up at

00:52:32.340 dyingbreed.net.

00:52:33.340 It's a great way to

00:52:34.260 support the show

00:52:34.720 directly.

00:52:35.620 As always, thank you

00:52:36.620 for the continued

00:52:37.020 support.

00:52:37.420 Until next time,

00:52:37.880 this is Brett

00:52:38.160 McKay.

00:52:38.760 Remind you on

00:52:39.200 listening to AOM

00:52:39.560 podcast, but put

00:52:40.540 what you've heard

00:52:41.200 into action.

00:52:58.500 Hey, before we

00:52:59.280 go, I've got one

00:52:59.820 more episode for

00:53:00.400 you to check out

00:53:01.020 on the art of

00:53:01.540 manliness.

00:53:02.080 I talked to Alex

00:53:02.860 Petkus about

00:53:03.540 Plutarch's lives and

00:53:05.200 why this ancient

00:53:05.840 collection of

00:53:06.360 biographies has

00:53:07.140 shaped leaders for

00:53:07.860 centuries and how

00:53:08.920 Plutarch can still

00:53:09.700 sharpen your sense

00:53:10.340 of virtue, judgment,

00:53:11.880 and character today.

00:53:13.240 It's timeless stuff

00:53:14.160 and a great entry

00:53:15.140 point into the works

00:53:16.280 of Plutarch.

00:53:17.420 Check it out at

00:53:18.080 aom.is slash

00:53:19.340 Plutarch.

00:53:20.140 That's aom.is slash

00:53:21.640 Plutarch.

The Art of Manliness - October 21, 2025

Chasing the White Whale — Into the Depths of Moby-Dick

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