Come Alive Again by Having More Fun
Episode Stats
Summary
When was the last time you had fun? Are you having trouble remembering it? Do you feel like fun has gone missing from your life and you re feeling a little dead inside as a result? In this episode of the Art of Manliness podcast, we re here to offer you a fun prevention: Katherine Price, author of The Power of Fun: How to Feel Alive Again, joins us to discuss the three elements of true fun and how it differs from fake fun, how to conduct a fun audit so you can identify your personal fun magnets, and why you really need to have a Ferris Bueller day.
Transcript
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brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast
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reflect on something for a second when was the last time you had fun are you having trouble
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remembering and if you think about it is it actually kind of hard to even describe what
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fun is don't worry if you feel like fun's gone missing from your life and are feeling a little
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dead inside as a result katherine price and i are here to offer you a fun prevention katherine is
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the author of the power of fun how to feel alive again and today on the show we discuss the three
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elements of true fun and how it differs from fake fun how to conduct a fun audit so you can identify
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your personal fun magnets how to get a greater kick out of your life and why you really need to have
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a ferris bueller day after the show's over check out our show notes at awim.is slash fun
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all right katherine price welcome to the show thank you so much for having me so you wrote a
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whole book about how to have fun i'm curious what caused you to take a deep dive into into how to
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have more friends you look at the research out there that's on this topic i mean what was going
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on in your life where it made you think you know like man i need to have more fun and i need to learn
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how to do it i mean i think the short answer to that is that i'm a huge dork and i wasn't having
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enough fun or maybe in the opposite order i was not having enough fun and i'm a huge dork so i decided
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i'd write a book about it but the contextual response is that i had written my previous book
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which was called how to break up with your phone which is about creating better boundaries with our
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devices and i had gone through the steps of my own book myself and i was feeling pretty good about
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myself because i'd created more space from my phone and other devices but i really hadn't realized that
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that was going to open up a new challenge and that new challenge was that once you reclaim time from
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your devices you actually have to figure out what to do with that time and i began to realize that
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i had lost sight of what i actually wanted to do with my time and so i actually had a kind of
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existential moment in this very room that i'm speaking to you from where i was sitting on the couch
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taking a break from my phone my kid was then a baby she was asleep my husband was out of the house
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and i had this like glorious hour in front of me to do whatever i wanted to with and i realized oh my
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goodness i actually don't know what i want to do and i ended up yeah having an existential crisis for a
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minute there and then asking myself this question that i had been asking people who helped me research
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how to break up with your phone and that question was what's something that i say i want to do but i
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supposedly don't have time for with the idea and i encourage people to you know ask themselves that
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as well but the idea is that we actually have a lot more time than we realize we're just frittering
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a lot of it away on meaningless things and my answer was i wanted to learn guitar and so i ended up
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signing up for this guitar class and it was a group of adults who met on wednesday nights by ob very
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informal and i realized that i was experiencing this kind of sense of joy and energy in that class that
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felt at that point in my life as a new parent who was pretty exhausted it felt very foreign and really
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wonderful and i got very curious about what this feeling was and in a revelation that sounds like
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kind of a dumb revelation in retrospect it took me a little while to realize oh it's fun like that's the
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word it's fun this is so fun and i got really curious about what exactly what was going on i'm a science
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journalist by by background and as i said i'm also a huge dork so i basically got intrigued by trying
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to figure out was my experience unique was this just because i was so fun starved or is this feeling
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of fun that something that is deeply energizing and nourishing and powerful for other people too
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and anyway those questions kind of led me on this journey that resulted in my book the power of fun
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okay so uh because you're a science journalist and because you're a dork you you wanted you went to the
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scientific literature to see what researchers had said about fun and one thing you discovered
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there isn't a lot of research out there about fun in the research that does exist how do psychologists
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and social scientists how do they define fun well yeah it was fascinating so yes as you're saying like
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any good science journalist dork i went to pub med and i looked up fun you know the the database of
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biomedical literature and at that point it actually was the top hit now i think it's just one of the top
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hits but one of the top hits that popped up when i put fun in was an article that was called the
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title was putting the fun in fungi and it was about toenail fungus and i just remember laughing when i saw
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that and thinking oh my god if that's actually one of the top hits on pub med about fun then this might
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actually be worth looking into you know and so then i i did more searching and there's really not
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much at all research that's been done about fun and what has been done is kind of it's like fun
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adjacent or it's about toenail fungus but it's not really about this feeling and i realized that
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probably part of the reason that there's not much research on this as opposed to other
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kind of nebulous psychological concepts like happiness or joy is that there's not a good
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definition of fun when i looked it up in the dictionary it said that it was just light-hearted
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amusement or pleasure light-hearted pleasure but when i reflected back on my own experiences of
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things that really stood out to me as having been so fun like truly fun memories it wasn't just
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light-hearted pleasure or amusement there was something much deeper going on and i decided to
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ask the people on my mailing list if they would share fun memories with me because again i was trying
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to see is this just me am i just like so fun starved at this moment that this is affecting me more than it
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is other people but i ended up collecting literally thousands of stories from people around the
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world and when i read through those stories i was just astonished by the depth of the joy that people
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were expressing in these stories and the meaning you know it quickly became clear that these were some of
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the most treasured memories they had from their lives and they weren't all dramatic which i think is a
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really important point it wasn't all you know people on vacation or in an exotic spot it was these
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mundane moments in many cases that still had this radiant joy coming through them you know one that
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stands out to me in my mind was someone who told me that they'd had a ton of fun just going out in
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the rain with their grandfather without umbrellas and just allowing themselves to be deliberately soaked
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and i just love that there was something very poignant about it and i'm actually um in the process of
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doing another what i call funtervention with the subscribers to my how to feel alive mailing list and
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just this morning i was looking through some of the stories that people shared with me about
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past experiences of fun and i had the same personal experience that i had when i was looking through
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the initial batch of stories that people shared which is that i read through these stories and i
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have this big smile on my face but i'm also actually welling up there's something very emotional about
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it so all that is to say that the dictionary definition of fun the idea that it is just light-hearted
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pleasure or amusement doesn't capture the depth of what the feeling of fun truly is
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you know fun seems like something we just intuitively know and feel and that's you know
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inherently free-flowing when you started this project of researching fun did you think am i
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risking am i doing like vivisection here where by intentionally thinking about fun and studying it
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i'm gonna kill it in the process um i didn't consciously think about that although i now i have a very
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vivid image of fun is this personified thing splayed out on an examining table and then i'm
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standing there with a scalpel like murdering it so thank you uh for that no i think it's kind of
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similar to like romance or sex where like there's something natural about it right but like you also
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could perhaps stand to benefit from thinking about it a bit too maybe not in the moment i don't think
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you should be in the middle of a fun experience and be like okay hold on guys right let's talk about
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what's making this fun you know you don't want to pull people out of the moment flow as we can talk
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about is what one of the three components i believe is part of the definition of fun but i think there
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is a real benefit to paying more attention to fun because a lot of times we have these fun moments
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and we enjoy them but they kind of slip away because we don't identify them as fun we don't really pay
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attention to them and that means that we don't really enjoy them as much as we could by reflecting
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back and savoring them afterwards but we also miss out on learning about what made it fun for us
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in hopes that we can actually put ourselves in more situations where fun might occur in the future
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so i think you know you don't want to take yourself out of the moment but there is actually a benefit to
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thinking about it and not just kind of assuming it's going to happen because especially as we become
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adults and our lives get busier and we take on more responsibilities it doesn't happen as often
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or we don't notice it happening as often so i think it's actually a skill that's worth developing
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okay so science doesn't have really good definitions of fun there's kind of fun adjacent definitions it's joy
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it's amusement but during your research and you're talking with your fun squads that you've developed
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through your mailing list that you have you made a distinction between true fun and fake fun
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what's the difference between the two i'm gonna get very dorky here so thank you thank you for that
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question yes so i i wanted to come up with a better definition of what fun is that better matched
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the experiences that not only i but the people on my mailing list were having and were expressing when
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they told me stories about fun and i noticed that there were three factors that popped up again and again
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and again in people's stories three kind of psychological states they seemed to be in when
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they had these moments of fun and the three states are playfulness connection and flow so i touched on
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flow a minute ago but flow is the state you get into when you're completely actively engaged and present
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in what you're doing you're in the zone you know like it's an athlete in the middle of a game it's a
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musician playing a piece of music the psychologist who coined the term did a lot of work studying rock
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climbers so you can imagine if you were actually scaling a rock face you are totally actively engaged
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in what you're doing we can get into flow and in a conversation when we're working on something
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there's many opportunities to be in flow the important thing about flow is that it's active
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right so time passes very quickly when you're in flow and a lot of times people will say oh
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that happens when i watch netflix and it's like yes you you lose track of time when you watch
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netflix but that's what's considered to be junk flow because it's sort of passive consumption
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true flow is this active engaged present state then playfulness i always like to clarify for adults
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because a lot of adults kind of clench up when they i mean i can see it when i give talks you say
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playfulness so there's all these grown-ups who kind of get a little bit more like rigid in their
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seats it doesn't mean that you have to be childish necessarily or silly or you know play charades
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or make believe or something like that those are two of my personal nightmares it's really about
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the attitude that you bring to situations so coming at life with a light-hearted attitude
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finding ways to laugh not taking yourself too seriously you know letting your guard down there's
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actually something beautifully vulnerable about being in a state of playfulness and fun so it's
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really the attitude that you're bringing to things and then connection was very interesting because i
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noticed in the vast vast majority of stories that people shared with me another person was involved
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in their experience of fun and i followed up the request for stories by actually asking people
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on the mailing list like a series of questions and these poor people actually answered them so this
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was my my research project here but i gave them this list of descriptors and i asked them to pick
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ones that would apply to what they had just told me and the two top choices that people picked
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were laughter which i thought was very telling but also special shared experience the feeling that you
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had a special shared experience with someone else there were times when that someone else was a dog
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there were occasional times when it was a sense of connection with the physical environment or the
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activity or yourself but really most people told stories with other people on them and that was true
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even for introverts in fact a number of people said something along the lines of i'm a self-proclaimed
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introvert and yet all of the stories that i just told you involved another person
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so i came to believe that true fun as i call it is the confluence of these three states it's the center of the
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venn diagram of playfulness connection and flow and as we can talk more about if you'd like i think that
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it is actually a really useful definition because once you break fun down to these three components
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of playfulness and connection and flow it gives you a much more accessible entry point in terms of
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figuring out ways to have more fun in your daily life and then to go back to your original question
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of why do i say true fun instead of just fun it's because i have this other concept that came to me
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when i was doing my research called fake fun because i realized oh we use the word fun really
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casually in our everyday speech to describe all sorts of feelings and activities some of which are
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truly fun that lead to this energizing nourishing state of playful connected flow but others that
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are almost like junk food they're very appealing easy to spend time on but you don't end up feeling
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nourished afterwards and that you know the biggest culprit by far i would say is social media
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in that regard and then things like binge watching television beyond the point of enjoyment you know
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where you end up feeling gross afterwards so i decided to refer to those types of experiences and
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activities as fake fun meaning something that's marketed to us as fun but it doesn't actually
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result in playful connected flow and then i do like to clarify too like those are two big buckets
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right like you've things that produce true fun things that lead to fake fun but i also think there's
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another third category of things we do with our leisure time which are things that are just enjoyable
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and nourishing maybe relaxing maybe more solitary that don't lead to true fun but they're still
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really worthwhile and those would be things like you know going for a walk or watching a tv show before
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you end up feeling gross about it or reading a book something that's a little bit quieter and i think
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that that's useful useful to make this distinction about these three categories because it means that you can
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come into your leisure time much more consciously and you can be more aware of the fake fun so that
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ideally you can reduce or eliminate it because it ends up feeling like a waste of time and then you
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can ask yourself well do i need something that's really energizing right now in which case maybe i
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should do something that might lead to true fun or do i just need something that's going to help me
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decompress and relax and nourish myself in a different way and then you can choose from your list of
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enjoyable activities so for me at least it's really helped me make much more intentional use of my leisure time
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something you talk about and this goes along with your last book that you wrote about breaking up with your
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phone is that a big reason we default to fake fun over true fun in the modern world is that our phones
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are always ready to distract us into just passive scrolling and passive amusement that's it isn't really fun
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i mean you have to be present to have flow so you say that anything that distracts you is going to prevent you
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from having that true fun but then also something you say that prevents us from having fun is just
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being over committed you know being busy with all the stuff that's going on in our life work school
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kids and the other issue with having fun is that it takes other people to have fun but those other
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people are also busy with their lives so it's hard to get together with people and i know i've seen this
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in my own life and i'm sure other people can relate where you know you want to get together with some
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friends for something but then you have to plan for it like three weeks in advance it's like 237
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texts go back and forth yeah um because everyone has different schedules because you know one kid's
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doing basketball another kid's doing some other thing and yeah it's i think i think youth soccer
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maybe that's one of the major impediments to adult fun yeah right exactly the traveling team you say
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another thing that gets in the way of our fun is that we just we think it's just frivolous right it's
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it's a nice thing to do when you got the time but it's not important it's not something worth
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prioritizing but not only you make the case that not only is fun something valuable in and of itself
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you can make a utilitarian case for being proactive about having fun when you highlight all these
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benefits that come with having fun it can keep you present it can unify a group of people it can boost
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your happiness it can make us more creative and it can actually you know ultimately make us more
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productive and then you also talk about that fun has a bunch of benefits for physical health yeah i
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found this to be absolutely fascinating so as i said i'm a science journalist by background that was
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inspired by the fact that i have type 1 diabetes and so i'm constantly thinking about how our
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environments and our behaviors affect our physical health and i realized that you know two of the
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biggest factors that are impeding our physical health these days are stress and loneliness loneliness
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and isolation and the reason that those two factors are so bad for us is that emotional stress and
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loneliness and isolation spike our levels of cortisol which is a stress hormone that's there to help us
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respond to physical threats so cortisol does stuff like increase our heart rate or our blood pressure or
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our blood glucose and it empowers us and enables us to flee from a physical threat but it's not good if
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it's elevated chronically over time in response to emotional stressors and when you recognize what cortisol does in
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the body you know with the heart rate blood pressure blood sugar among other things you can see why
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it's associated with an elevated risk for things like heart attack and stroke and type 2 diabetes and
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obesity so the reason i bring that up is that if you buy my definition that fun is a state of playful
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connected flow it is by definition a relaxed state in which you are not experiencing emotional
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stress and it's also a state of social connection so you're not lonely and isolated when you're having fun
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so i just thought that was fascinating because again while i don't know of any research studies
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that have looked directly at this definition of fun and could give you a footnote on this i think it
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stands to reason that by relaxing us and putting us into more situations of social connection
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fun can actually be considered to be a health intervention
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no i'd agree and i i've seen that in my own life where when i do make time for fun i think your
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definition's on it's that playful connection the flow state you know you you make plans for
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things that are fun and you're like oh my gosh it's gonna be a lot of work uh you know getting ready
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for a camping trip uh getting ready for uh you know a cookout or something like that like that's
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that's true the gear yeah no yeah find that fun but yes i agree with you the packing packing list
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yeah and that's why you put it off i actually we've got some friends that they're one of their
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saying is having fun is a lot of work but it's worth it um but i notice when i when i make the time
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for fun i see these benefits in my life i just feel energized with my work um i get new ideas i'm more
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relaxed even if i you know stayed up late talking with friends the next day i feel great yeah i'm curious
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i mean when you're talking about the times in which you have fun can you can you share an
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experience that stands out to you as having been truly fun oh sure i mean just i just random getting
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together with friends like on a weeknight and just talking and having conversation i find conversation
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very fun you get in the flow there's a playfulness to it and there's that connection aspect backpacking
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is another one i like our family likes to do again backpacking is a lot of work so you have to get
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the gear and then plan where you're gonna go and get the food and travel there but once you actually
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do it it feels great those are the ones that stick out to me off the top of my head i think it's
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interesting too because you kind of alluded to something that i always like to point out to people
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is that it's not necessarily people tend to think that the fun is the activity itself but what i've
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realized reading through people's stories and reflecting on this is that the fun is the feeling that
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results from the activity which i think is really important going back to what gets in the way of
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our ability to have fun as adults or in modern life and this busyness people kind of assume that if
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they're going to have more fun then they need to do more things like backpacking trips and i do think
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you know if that typically leads to fun for people they you should prioritize it but you don't
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necessarily need to do that if you recognize that oh i can also have this feeling of fun like you're
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saying from talking with friends or maybe there's particular friends who are particularly fun
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to talk to who produce this feeling because what i realized for myself it's like you can
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do the exact same quote-unquote fun activity and sometimes it's really fun and then sometimes it's
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not fun at all and then sometimes it's just in the middle like i'm sure with your backpacking trips you
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could probably you know rattle off like a few that fall into each of those categories and i think
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that's such an important insight it has been for me at least to be like oh okay i need to put less
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pressure on the activity itself and just seek out like situations where i can get this feeling
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i mean with that said i also i also think that there's what i call fun magnets which is a term i
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totally made up that refers to each of our personal collection of activities and people and settings
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that are more likely than others to produce this feeling of fun for us so you know for example one of
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my fun magnets is playing music with friends like that just really and it's a particular group of
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friends so that very often if not always results in some level of true fun for me and so i make a
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point to prioritize that my husband on the other hand like you know he he doesn't play an instrument
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so that's not a fun magnet for him at all that's kind of a boring night out and then for him he loves
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overnight camping trips i have bad knees and diabetes has not lend itself well to you know trail mix and like
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pasta and so i'm not i mean i love being outside but i'm not as much of a fan of overnight camping
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trips those are much more of a fun magnet for him and so i encourage listeners to kind of think back
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on your own fun memories and ask yourself are there any themes that stand out you know any activities
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that stand out to you or people or context or settings because those are probably your fun magnets
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and it's important to then prioritize them and also if you're in a relationship get to know your
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partner's fun magnets or your kids fun magnets or you know just other people's fun magnets and
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now i'm veering into couples therapy mode i'm not a couples therapist but you know i think it's really
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important for people in relationships to recognize each other's fun magnets and to give the other person
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space for theirs and to encourage them to prioritize it in addition to figuring out what fun magnets you
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share and doing those together but i'm so grateful to my husband that he recognizes how important music is
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to me and he'll take care of our kid like when i am out playing with my friends it makes such a difference
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it's so good for our relationship and honestly for for me in terms of my ability to be a
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a good partner and parent so when people ask me how can i have more fun i think about it
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in two like two angles to it i feel like i'm starting to sound like an engineer you know just
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engineer your fun magnets you can make more fun in your life so there's that side of things which
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gets back to your vivisection um analogy but i think it's very important it's like okay we'll
00:23:18.880
figure out what would be what's likely to lead to fun for you and the people in your life and then
00:23:23.600
create space for it like that's the one side and then what i've also realized is that you also then
00:23:28.640
have this like element of fun as you were also alluding to that's spontaneous that can't be planned
00:23:33.460
for so i think that we need to come at it from two different angles one is all right what are your
00:23:37.700
fun magnets you know what typically generates fun for you how can you prioritize it how can you make
00:23:42.420
space for those things in the life of someone you care about and then on the other side how do you
00:23:47.680
open yourself up more to spontaneity and that's where i think it's so important to ask yourself
00:23:52.080
okay well how can i make more space in my life in general if it's by saying no to some obligations
00:23:56.880
that are no longer essential or enjoyable or if it's by making a point to look up from your phone
00:24:02.660
instead of down at your phone just so you can kind of present yourself to the world as someone who could
00:24:06.820
be interacted with i mean that i think is enormously important is just to be more present in the world
00:24:12.180
because there's actually opportunities for little moments of fun around us all the time if we start
00:24:18.080
to become better at kind of paying attention to them and seeking them out there was a story someone
00:24:22.820
told me once he was a comedian actually and he told me the story about how he had had what he described
00:24:27.500
as two hours of true fun with his nephew and he said all they were doing were sitting on this park bench
00:24:34.020
and they were trying to catch leaves as they fell off of a tree and when he told me that story i was like
00:24:39.980
oh my god you just get it's like a perfect literal metaphor because you were literally catching little
00:24:45.780
moments of you know leaves off of a tree but the metaphor is that there actually are these
00:24:50.200
opportunities for fun floating around us all the time we just need to be better at reaching out and
00:24:53.980
grabbing them so i was very appreciative to him for telling me that story it really created a lovely
00:25:00.180
image in my own mind we're gonna take a quick break for your words from our sponsors
00:25:03.900
and now back to the show well i'm going back to this idea that fun isn't necessarily the activity
00:25:16.120
that you do it's the feeling you get from an activity because fun is subjective right like as you
00:25:22.220
alluded to one person can think one activities is fun and the other person can think boy this this is
00:25:29.240
terrible like i i need to stop this and i'm sure we've all had that experience where we've seen
00:25:34.740
something that looks like fun like you see other people having fun doing said activity and they're
00:25:40.620
well i'm gonna go do that and you're like oh man are we having fun yet like this is terrible like
00:25:45.160
what is going on here um yeah so let's talk about you do have this idea of a fun audit like figure out
00:25:50.780
what brings fun in your life so are there questions that you found that are really useful to help you
00:25:56.480
figure out what are the factors or what are the magnets in an activity that allow me to have fun
00:26:03.160
like how do you feel like some people might be listening like i can't remember last time i had
00:26:06.040
fun so i don't know i'm not okay you're not alone yeah so how do you figure this out how do you figure
00:26:11.900
out get in touch with what's fun for you yeah well i mean i really would say like don't worry if
00:26:16.940
you're listening to this and you're like oh my god my life is so lame i don't know i don't even know
00:26:21.960
what fun is like you're okay you do know what fun is it's just been maybe you've never thought
00:26:27.220
consciously about it totally fine we can help you through this um i would suggest like the first
00:26:32.780
thing to do is what we've been talking about which is actually like set aside a little bit of time
00:26:36.580
and think back even just on 2023 just like huh what's a fun memory that stands out don't put too
00:26:42.300
much pressure on it you know like don't it doesn't necessarily have to be the most fun you ever had
00:26:45.940
in your life but just like what stands out as fun and just start with this kind of like low bar
00:26:50.260
because once you start tapping into this type of memory you may find that you start to come up with
00:26:55.360
more and more you know it becomes easier i also would recommend doing that with someone you know
00:27:00.520
a friend or your spouse or partner or your kid whoever just like actually have a conversation
00:27:05.080
but like let's think back like what were some fun memories that that stand out to us and if you're
00:27:09.780
the kind of person who likes taking notes you can actually like just jot down some of these
00:27:13.500
memories i think that can be useful and then what you want to do is not only notice what
00:27:17.560
it feels like in your body and in your mind to think about past fun and to hear someone else talk
00:27:24.140
about past fun it's a very a joyful experience i found but then you can look at your stories and
00:27:29.900
you can as i was saying earlier you can ask yourself is there any like themes that come out so you'll
00:27:34.520
take the story and then you can ask yourself okay what are some of my fun magnets you know what people
00:27:38.580
just really help me get into this state of playful connected flow or their particular settings
00:27:43.620
you know for me like i loved camp as a child or as a teenager and even as an adult i organized camp
00:27:49.680
weekends for groups of my friends and going back to what you were saying total pain in the butt to
00:27:54.160
organize these weekends it is not fun to do all the logistics but i know that summer camp is for me a
00:27:59.440
context in which i tend to have a lot of fun you know it leads to this playfulness and this connection
00:28:03.820
and then you can also ask yourself like what are the activities that typically lead to fun that might be
00:28:08.520
the easiest one because you know we all of us i think can identify activities that we typically
00:28:13.780
enjoy like we're normally not too horrible about that it's just recognizing that oh yeah yeah that's
00:28:19.160
a fun magnet like i actually should prioritize that because of the fun but you might also want to ask
00:28:22.940
yourself for like the non-obvious activities for example what you just said like hanging out with
00:28:27.300
friends at night and having conversations it doesn't sound like an activity you list on a list of
00:28:33.340
hobbies per se but it's something that leads to fun so it takes some time to try to figure out these
00:28:39.300
themes so that you can pull out these fun magnets and again the benefit of that is that then you can
00:28:44.580
actually reserve time for those things on your schedule actually prioritize them in the same way
00:28:49.200
you'd prioritize i would hope a doctor's appointment or some kind of important meeting and then if you
00:28:54.200
want to take it a step further i think it's kind of fun to try to figure out what i call your fun
00:28:58.240
factors which is the characteristics of those people and settings and activities that make them
00:29:03.900
fun so for example if one of your fun magnets is backpacking trips maybe one of your fun factors is
00:29:10.720
nature like being outside in nature maybe it's the particular type of group you're with when you're
00:29:16.000
out in nature maybe it's the physical activity that tends to lead to fun for you like for me clearly
00:29:22.820
music is a fun factor for me because when music is involved i tend to have more fun
00:29:27.380
there's the element of community and creation that tends to lead to fun for me but just as an
00:29:35.640
example if we use you know me playing music with friends as an example um that we can draw from
00:29:39.580
another fun factor for a lot of people is performance right like you might find the
00:29:43.920
performing aspect really fun and i realized for me that's actually really not what it's about like
00:29:48.060
it is about creating something with a group of people and feeling very connected to them in the
00:29:52.080
moment and if we perform that's kind of like an added bonus that might be fun might not be fun
00:29:56.020
but it's not a primary driver for me in terms of fun and so i'd recommend kind of figuring out
00:30:02.120
these characteristics these fun factors because it can help you generate new ideas for things to try
00:30:07.480
because one of the shortcuts and kind of hacks to fun is to try new things ideally with other people
00:30:13.780
right like if we wanted to condense our conversation it's just like a sentence and the people like how
00:30:17.480
can i have more fun i'd say okay we'll try something new with another person you know and also more
00:30:22.720
situations where you're laughing if you're laughing you're probably having fun so if you want like a
00:30:26.140
tell for when you're having fun there's probably you probably laughed but anyway that so i think
00:30:30.200
that those are some of the steps i'd recommend starting with in terms of trying to figure out
00:30:34.320
like what you can actually prioritize and plan for and kind of play around with like what can you
00:30:40.200
experiment with um i actually yeah i've done a bunch of that myself like one of the things that this
00:30:45.620
whole process has led to as i said i took up the guitar i already played piano but i don't know i got
00:30:51.020
invited randomly to a drum class one time and i was like oh okay i don't know i'll try drumming that
00:30:55.200
sounds like it could be fun and now that's like my obsession i love drumming it is so so so so so
00:31:00.440
fun even though it was a little scary to start you know it's like a hard thing and it's trying
00:31:05.320
anything new can be a little bit intimidating but i'm so grateful i did so i would play around with
00:31:09.920
that and then on the flip side again in terms of figuring out ways to invite more fun into your
00:31:14.740
life we do need to create a little bit more mental space and i do think that starting with
00:31:19.400
your phone is a very very good place to start is how can you create better boundaries with your phone
00:31:24.760
whether it's by reducing notifications or creating physical boundaries where you you know for example
00:31:29.600
i charge my phone at night in the closet creating no phone zones where your phone just isn't around
00:31:34.280
so if you're trying to if you're with people put your phone away because if your phone's out it's
00:31:38.680
going to kind of distract you a little bit and that's going to get in the way of your potential
00:31:41.840
ability to lose yourself in the moment and to have fun or if you're in an uber for example like
00:31:46.500
maybe don't have your phone out i'm not saying that you have to get into a conversation with the
00:31:51.420
uber driver like it might not lead to you know true fun but it'll at least give you a little bit
00:31:56.060
more of a moment to engage in the world just as a side anecdote this is kind of sad but i try to do
00:32:01.240
that myself when i'm taking you know ride share things and i've had now three separate drivers ask
00:32:07.140
me if i'm okay because i've been looking out the window and i'm like yeah i was looking at a cloud
00:32:13.800
right and they're like okay i'm just checking i'm like oh my god so i get maybe that's inspiring
00:32:18.560
because it's like very low-hanging fruit anything you can do to create better boundaries with your
00:32:21.820
phone is probably going to make you more present and like open yourself up to more opportunities but
00:32:26.000
one more concrete example that i've had two separate people recently tell me about past experiences of
00:32:31.620
true fun when they were waiting in the airport for a delayed flight right like how unfun and i think
00:32:38.260
that really speaks to the fact that it's a feeling and not an activity because literally nobody
00:32:42.500
would say you know what's on my list of fun times like airport delays but in both cases it was
00:32:49.140
because this they ended up having some kind of um engagement with the people around them one guy
00:32:53.960
told me he had gotten into this very funny conversation with some of the other people
00:32:58.280
in line with him like waiting for the customer service desk i mean he was like glowing telling me
00:33:02.240
about this and then someone just told me about the adventures they ended up having with their
00:33:05.760
family when they were stuck in the airport and they kind of went on this exploration and they were
00:33:10.240
like i never would have chosen to do this it doesn't sound like it would have been fun at all
00:33:13.660
but we ended up actually having a really great time together yeah that reminds me of a time my family
00:33:19.100
we landed in chicago it was a layover because we're on our way home to tulsa but then my wife she
00:33:24.320
realized that she accidentally booked an itinerary that had it was like and it was a seven hour layover
00:33:30.980
chicago and at first we were just like oh my gosh this is awful as the worst news ever but then we
00:33:36.640
decided to take a taxi to see the chicago children's museum and we ended up having a blast on that
00:33:42.680
layover and like what else did we oh yeah we got a great hot dog a great chicago hot dog as well
00:33:46.740
so i mean you're not at the mercy of circumstances you can convert you know what seemingly seems like
00:33:52.720
a bad circumstance into fun okay so in this fun audit look back on the past year and you also
00:33:59.340
recommend having people look back when they were a kid yeah i think that can be useful too like what
00:34:03.980
did you love doing when you were you know nine years old when you were 13 years old when you were
00:34:08.040
17 years old like what did you used to be passionate about before life got in the way you know um and
00:34:14.360
that can be really useful because you can you probably can tap back into some of that like if you used to
00:34:18.280
play a lot of music i mean sorry i keep talking about that i'm like literally looking at my guitar but
00:34:21.800
there's probably a way to do a little bit of that or if you loved a sport like is there a way to get
00:34:26.480
back in touch with something that's physical even if it's not necessarily that sport per se but yeah look
00:34:31.940
back on your own life because again i think we've all had fun thankfully at some point so it's a
00:34:38.500
matter of paying more attention to it so you can kind of identify it like you can probably identify
00:34:43.480
most of the moments from your life in which you were truly terrified right because our brains are
00:34:48.300
very good at remembering negative frightening things it's a evolutionary strategy to keep us alive
00:34:55.520
is to be very attuned to threats it takes much more conscious effort to attune yourself to
00:34:59.660
things that make you feel good no yeah and so when you look back look for signs of fun of that
00:35:05.360
playfulness connection flow so you talk about signs you mentioned some of them laughter feeling like
00:35:11.140
you're connected to to other people losing track of time um you know feeling childlike excitement and
00:35:18.180
joy is another sign yeah so if you see those things in those moments as you look back in your life or
00:35:23.000
your year then that's how you figure out what those fun magnets are and what those fun factors are
00:35:27.840
as you said there's certain people like it might be just certain people that you spend time with that
00:35:32.040
allow you to have fun i know my wife and i we've got some good friends of ours uh they used to live
00:35:37.620
here in oklahoma but then they moved but we have a lot of fun with them so like we still once a year
00:35:43.800
try to get together to do something with them because we know we'll have fun yeah it's so important i think
00:35:50.460
that's so easy to let slip you know it's just oh we're going to figure out the logistics and so years
00:35:56.600
can go by and you don't see some of your favorite people that's something that's changed for me in
00:36:01.240
the past couple years the reason i started organizing these summer camp weekends for friends was that a
00:36:05.280
friend of mine from college a dear friend whom i don't see as often as i should although i will say
00:36:09.380
we did a summer camp this summer together but his dad died like in i think in 2016 and i went to
00:36:15.660
his memorial service and there were 200 300 i don't know how many people he was professor and he
00:36:20.200
was quite beloved celebrating him and i thought oh my god like this is both amazing but it's also so
00:36:25.660
sad that he's not here and that it took his death to bring these people together and i mean not to get
00:36:31.140
all existential but i'm like why are we not doing this when we're alive so that's when i started
00:36:35.420
organizing these weekends and it's been wonderful so yeah i would say definitely think about who you
00:36:41.440
have fun with who do you love being around and make it happen and on the flip side there's probably
00:36:47.040
people in your life that are not fun and obviously there's some people like that you're just going to
00:36:52.100
have to deal with if it's a co-worker or your boss or you know whatever or like a family member that you
00:36:56.320
just don't enjoy being around but there are other people whom you do have more choice with and they
00:37:02.280
might even be people that you were friends with for long ago and you're just actually not that good
00:37:07.320
friends now but you've kind of like you're keeping it up just because like maybe maybe let some of
00:37:11.620
those go because again our lives are very full and it's our time and attention are both zero sum
00:37:17.220
when you pay attention or spend time on one thing you can't spend time or attention on something else
00:37:22.980
so you need to clear out space so i'd also encourage that kind of reflection like oh is does someone
00:37:28.600
consistently actually bring me down when i'm with them because maybe i want to try to spend a bit less
00:37:33.100
time with them okay so once you figure out what your fun factors are your fun magnets are
00:37:37.360
you gotta start trying to be more intentional about having fun so you have this acronym spark
00:37:42.400
on how to have more fun s is for make more space p is for pursue passions a is for attract fun r is for
00:37:49.920
rebel and k is for keeping at it we've talked about some of these things you talk about making space so
00:37:55.660
if you if you're over committed see if there's things you can get rid of in your life so you can have
00:38:00.280
more time for fun do you talk about changing your relationship with your phone because that just
00:38:04.820
will suck you into fake fun so spend less time on your phone and make more time for you know actual
00:38:09.860
true fun the things that really bring you joy but i want to talk about this idea of attracting fun
00:38:14.500
i think a lot of what we've been talking about so far is how to have big fun right like those you know
00:38:19.940
things that might take a lot of planning so like a backpacking trip or maybe you're going to go see a
00:38:25.060
concert with some friends but what about just like that spontaneous fun right like how can you
00:38:29.940
attract more of that just sort of like day-to-day life you you have more of those feelings of fun
00:38:35.160
where it's playfulness connection and flow yeah so attract fun um part of that involves what i call
00:38:43.380
adopting a fun mindset which is a playoff of growth mindset and so it's basically like opening yourself
00:38:49.240
to opportunities of fun that might already exist and then also seeking out ways that you might be able
00:38:54.280
to create those moments of fun by which i mean moments of playfulness connection or flow they
00:39:00.180
don't all have to happen at once if you hit i think of it as being like a like a target and you're
00:39:04.560
playing darts you just want to hit anywhere well if you're me playing darts you want to hit anywhere
00:39:08.760
on the board you're pretty psyched and then the closer you get to the center the better right so if
00:39:14.380
you are in a moment of flow that's great and if it's also playable even better and if you're also
00:39:18.860
connected and like great then you hit the bullseye so one way to do so is to adopt the practice that
00:39:25.220
improv comedians talk about a lot which is yes and which basically is not just shutting things down
00:39:31.900
automatically and trying to both be open to new ideas and to build on them so in an improv comedy
00:39:39.240
setting if someone makes a suggestion on stage if they say like i'm santa claus your response should
00:39:44.880
not be no you're not it should be oh you are and like here's a present i don't know you do something
00:39:50.920
else the reason that stands out to me is because i took an improv comedy class once and it turns out
00:39:55.220
i'm horrible at improv comedy i love it but i'm horrible at it and someone did say i'm santa claus
00:40:00.220
and my response was no you're not and then they called scene so it's a little traumatic uh not fun for
00:40:06.240
me but anyway but if you can kind of adopt this attitude where you say yes to opportunities or you say
00:40:12.440
yes to ideas i've got one friend who tries to do this like she does this all the time i mean
00:40:17.400
i remember thanking her for saying yes to some weird invitation i'd extended to her and she just goes
00:40:23.800
i always try you know and i just thought that was so beautiful it's like try to be that person who says
00:40:29.320
yes you know and then try to be that person who then builds on it and brings a bit more playfulness
00:40:34.840
to the situation or a bit more you know connection or what have you or someone who invites other people
00:40:39.820
to do stuff so that's part of adopting this fun mindset the other way is to adopt practices where
00:40:46.940
you're just trying to help people i mean this is a little specific but the practice of noticing and
00:40:52.420
sharing things that delight you is a way to kind of shortcut into having a fun mindset so the idea
00:40:59.120
there and this is an idea i got from the book of delights by the poet ross gay which i highly recommend
00:41:03.840
is basically just instead of like allowing your brain to naturally tune into all the negative scary
00:41:10.000
things out there you make a conscious decision you're just going to scan your environment throughout
00:41:13.400
your day for anything that delights you and when you notice something that delights you it doesn't have
00:41:17.980
to be deep you know i get a lot of delight out of squirrels you put a finger in the air and you say
00:41:24.220
out loud delight which sounds ridiculous perhaps not inherently manly but i will tell you i've suggested
00:41:31.080
this at a number of conferences and i had a very funny experience where i walked past some men who
00:41:35.220
are coming out of the men's room and one of them saw me and he goes we were just talking about
00:41:39.920
delight at the urinals and i was like i have so many questions for you but i also delight that is
00:41:44.560
itself a delight i'm delighted that you told me that and that whatever happened in there happened
00:41:48.080
so my point is that if you get into this practice of noticing delights it really can boost your spirits
00:41:53.980
and it can help train you to get into a fun mindset by noticing these moments of levity and absurdity
00:42:00.240
and beauty and what have you that exist and if you take it a step further and you share your
00:42:04.760
delights with other people and i think this is a lovely thing to do with your family in particular
00:42:08.200
like i do this with my daughter she's eight and we share delights with each other another thing you
00:42:12.620
can do is to think about ways that you could just bring delight to other people right like how could
00:42:18.000
you do something that would brighten someone else's day because chances are it will brighten your day
00:42:22.040
too and you can actually become a quote-unquote fun person simply by shifting your attitude and i think
00:42:27.660
that's the deeper message here is that when i asked people because i did this in my big survey that i
00:42:31.980
sent to my mailing list when i was researching my book i said describe someone from your life that
00:42:36.940
you think of as a fun person and then tell me what makes them fun you know and i guess i kind of assumed
00:42:42.520
like i think many people would that people would describe people who were the quote-unquote life of
00:42:46.160
the party or like the class clown or someone who was kind of exuberant and boisterous and that was not
00:42:50.820
always the case there were a lot of examples where the person who was quote-unquote fun
00:42:56.120
was considered to be fun because they did things like say yes to things or make people feel
00:43:02.200
comfortable in their presence or you know laugh along with people not necessarily be the source
00:43:07.780
of the laughter but be the person who laughs and i thought that was really interesting because it
00:43:12.880
shows that you don't have to be extroverted to be a quote fun person it really is all about adopting
00:43:17.140
this fun mindset and just to go back to the delight example like an example of how i decided to spread
00:43:22.460
delight is at some point i was at a talk and someone showed me these pictures of portable disco
00:43:27.620
balls that they had been using to great effect in their own life and i realized that said disco
00:43:32.460
balls were like 9.99 on amazon and so i went online and i just bought like four of these disco
00:43:38.440
balls i mean obviously one for myself but then i just sent them to friends with like no explanation
00:43:43.040
just as a way to delight them and it was just such a treat then people wrote back to me you know my
00:43:47.900
my best friend from journalism school was like oh thank you for the disco ball you know my daughter
00:43:51.840
loves it and i wrote back i was like that was not for your daughter but you know it's like what can
00:43:56.560
you do to just brighten someone's day and then also what can you do for yourself to help you get a kick
00:44:02.760
out of your own life like it's okay to enjoy your own life it's actually really important because
00:44:08.300
you'll be able to bring so much more positive energy to everything you do if you're enjoying your own
00:44:13.400
life and that's part of the fun mindset and it's also part of the r in the spark acronym which is
00:44:19.000
rebel which actually was probably my favorite one of all five of those letters because i noticed in
00:44:24.440
stories that people sent me there often was this element of playful rebellion in them this kind of
00:44:30.000
like breaking the rules of responsible adulthood just a little bit not like doing anything illegal but
00:44:34.920
just doing something you wouldn't expect a quote-unquote responsible grown-up to do so for example the
00:44:39.580
woman who showed me the disco balls the context was that she worked for a financial a major financial
00:44:44.680
firm and she was showing me a video of her and her co-workers in their 40s in one of their basements
00:44:52.680
it was an unfinished basement and they all were on roller skates doing a disco party and they had these
00:44:58.700
balls you know on and one of them was dressed as a butterfly i don't know it was very odd totally
00:45:04.140
delightful and i was like wow that is not what you would think and i don't think that they were like
00:45:08.060
incredibly drunk or anything they were just having a fun time being playful and like just doing
00:45:12.480
something goofy together and i just love that as an example of a form of rebellion not what you would
00:45:17.660
expect these people to be doing and i think there's an element of the sense of rebellion that itself
00:45:22.700
generates fun just doing something a little bit i mean naughty might be too strong even but even
00:45:28.560
something like you know instead of listening to the news when you drive home today like turn on a song
00:45:33.700
that you loved when you were a teenager and just sing along to it you know maybe even like air drum
00:45:37.680
like do something like that where you're just like doing something that you get a kick out of just
00:45:41.540
because you get a kick out of it and then notice what difference it makes in your own mood to just
00:45:45.500
seek out opportunities to do things like that for yourself and for other people yeah this idea of
00:45:49.480
rebel made me think i want to do this with my kids and i need to do more in my life have a ferris
00:45:55.160
bueller day oh yeah right where you just you call into school you call into work you just say hey i'm not
00:46:00.920
coming in today and it's not because you're sick it's because you just want to go do ferris bueller
00:46:06.440
stuff you want to go to a baseball game in the middle of the day you want to go to a museum
00:46:10.540
that's that could be fun so like yeah find a ferris bueller day for yourself i think that's a great
00:46:15.680
idea it's also like pretty much my favorite movie of all time but yeah exactly you know and i think
00:46:20.100
that's why people love that movie because it's like the condensation like that is fun you know
00:46:25.600
ferris bueller is fun that day is fun we all of the generation that grew up with that movie
00:46:30.460
can probably quote numerous things from that movie you know and like the whole like twist and
00:46:35.580
shut everything about that is fun so yes i would highly recommend finding a way to create more
00:46:40.460
ferris bueller moments just like play hooky like people need to play hooky more often we need to
00:46:44.380
play hooky and and the irony is that you think it's going to make you less productive or whatever but
00:46:48.380
it's not because you're going to come back refreshed you're going to have a wonderful time it's going to
00:46:52.320
energize you and those are the moments that you remember you know like i remember ferris
00:46:56.920
bueller's day off and i was not in the movie right cameron yeah you know yeah you're right like
00:47:01.780
ferris bueller's the fun movie yeah yeah there's playfulness there's connection and then there's
00:47:07.960
flow yeah exactly exactly it's like a perfect example of it yeah or you know like i guess
00:47:13.560
rebellion i don't know how we're like when he goes in and pretends that he's the sausage king of
00:47:16.680
chicago like that's rebellious the whole thing obviously is rebellious oh i want to go watch that
00:47:20.840
movie now okay yeah the reason i came up my son just watched it he's 13 and he watched ferris
00:47:26.500
bueller and he thought it was the greatest movie ever i think i was 13 when i watched ferris bueller
00:47:29.860
okay yeah like i was like well is it still funny to people that didn't grow up with it no it's good
00:47:34.200
to know it still is it it stands well katherine this has been a great conversation uh where can people
00:47:39.860
go to learn more about the book in your work well i i would love it if people would sign up for my
00:47:44.580
newsletter uh it's called how to feel alive and if you search for katherine price and how to feel
00:47:49.640
alive you will find it it's technically on substack but if you want like a one-stop shop for all of my
00:47:54.500
stuff including the sign up for that it's katherine price katherine with a c.com yeah you can learn
00:47:59.880
about my books the newsletter i also have courses based on both of my books or both my most recent
00:48:04.740
books how to break up with your phone and the power of fun that walk you through the steps of the
00:48:07.900
book uh so i'd love to have some of your your listeners join the community yeah and just my whole
00:48:14.300
goal is to help people you know scroll less and live more and i myself am definitely included in
00:48:19.440
that the list of people who need that intervention so i'd love to have your listeners come along
00:48:23.680
fantastic well katherine price thanks for your time it's been a pleasure thank you so much this
00:48:27.680
has been truly fun and and you know i don't just say that well thank you my guest today was katherine
00:48:34.400
price she's the author of the book the power of fun it's available on amazon.com and bookstores
00:48:38.280
everywhere you can find more information about our work at our website katherineprice.com
00:48:42.180
also check out our show notes at am.is slash fun where you find links to resources
00:48:48.100
well that wraps up another edition of the a1 podcast make sure to check out our website at
00:48:59.700
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00:49:03.820
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00:49:08.160
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00:49:23.480
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