The Art of Manliness - Come Alive Again by Having More Fun

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast

00:00:11.060 reflect on something for a second when was the last time you had fun are you having trouble

00:00:16.640 remembering and if you think about it is it actually kind of hard to even describe what

00:00:20.560 fun is don't worry if you feel like fun's gone missing from your life and are feeling a little

00:00:25.640 dead inside as a result katherine price and i are here to offer you a fun prevention katherine is

00:00:30.420 the author of the power of fun how to feel alive again and today on the show we discuss the three

00:00:35.480 elements of true fun and how it differs from fake fun how to conduct a fun audit so you can identify

00:00:40.700 your personal fun magnets how to get a greater kick out of your life and why you really need to have

00:00:45.580 a ferris bueller day after the show's over check out our show notes at awim.is slash fun

00:00:50.820 all right katherine price welcome to the show thank you so much for having me so you wrote a

00:01:06.580 whole book about how to have fun i'm curious what caused you to take a deep dive into into how to

00:01:14.880 have more friends you look at the research out there that's on this topic i mean what was going

00:01:18.720 on in your life where it made you think you know like man i need to have more fun and i need to learn

00:01:23.860 how to do it i mean i think the short answer to that is that i'm a huge dork and i wasn't having

00:01:30.880 enough fun or maybe in the opposite order i was not having enough fun and i'm a huge dork so i decided

00:01:35.540 i'd write a book about it but the contextual response is that i had written my previous book

00:01:41.060 which was called how to break up with your phone which is about creating better boundaries with our

00:01:45.300 devices and i had gone through the steps of my own book myself and i was feeling pretty good about

00:01:49.820 myself because i'd created more space from my phone and other devices but i really hadn't realized that

00:01:55.400 that was going to open up a new challenge and that new challenge was that once you reclaim time from

00:02:00.200 your devices you actually have to figure out what to do with that time and i began to realize that

00:02:04.740 i had lost sight of what i actually wanted to do with my time and so i actually had a kind of

00:02:10.480 existential moment in this very room that i'm speaking to you from where i was sitting on the couch

00:02:14.580 taking a break from my phone my kid was then a baby she was asleep my husband was out of the house

00:02:18.980 and i had this like glorious hour in front of me to do whatever i wanted to with and i realized oh my

00:02:24.240 goodness i actually don't know what i want to do and i ended up yeah having an existential crisis for a

00:02:29.140 minute there and then asking myself this question that i had been asking people who helped me research

00:02:33.860 how to break up with your phone and that question was what's something that i say i want to do but i

00:02:38.960 supposedly don't have time for with the idea and i encourage people to you know ask themselves that

00:02:44.400 as well but the idea is that we actually have a lot more time than we realize we're just frittering

00:02:48.900 a lot of it away on meaningless things and my answer was i wanted to learn guitar and so i ended up

00:02:55.920 signing up for this guitar class and it was a group of adults who met on wednesday nights by ob very

00:03:01.680 informal and i realized that i was experiencing this kind of sense of joy and energy in that class that

00:03:07.200 felt at that point in my life as a new parent who was pretty exhausted it felt very foreign and really

00:03:13.600 wonderful and i got very curious about what this feeling was and in a revelation that sounds like

00:03:20.100 kind of a dumb revelation in retrospect it took me a little while to realize oh it's fun like that's the

00:03:25.520 word it's fun this is so fun and i got really curious about what exactly what was going on i'm a science

00:03:32.940 journalist by by background and as i said i'm also a huge dork so i basically got intrigued by trying

00:03:38.560 to figure out was my experience unique was this just because i was so fun starved or is this feeling

00:03:43.880 of fun that something that is deeply energizing and nourishing and powerful for other people too

00:03:49.600 and anyway those questions kind of led me on this journey that resulted in my book the power of fun 0.91

00:03:54.660 okay so uh because you're a science journalist and because you're a dork you you wanted you went to the

00:04:01.540 scientific literature to see what researchers had said about fun and one thing you discovered

00:04:05.420 there isn't a lot of research out there about fun in the research that does exist how do psychologists

00:04:11.840 and social scientists how do they define fun well yeah it was fascinating so yes as you're saying like

00:04:18.360 any good science journalist dork i went to pub med and i looked up fun you know the the database of

00:04:23.320 biomedical literature and at that point it actually was the top hit now i think it's just one of the top

00:04:30.180 hits but one of the top hits that popped up when i put fun in was an article that was called the

00:04:35.380 title was putting the fun in fungi and it was about toenail fungus and i just remember laughing when i saw

00:04:43.220 that and thinking oh my god if that's actually one of the top hits on pub med about fun then this might

00:04:49.440 actually be worth looking into you know and so then i i did more searching and there's really not

00:04:56.580 much at all research that's been done about fun and what has been done is kind of it's like fun

00:05:04.660 adjacent or it's about toenail fungus but it's not really about this feeling and i realized that

00:05:09.080 probably part of the reason that there's not much research on this as opposed to other

00:05:13.460 kind of nebulous psychological concepts like happiness or joy is that there's not a good

00:05:17.580 definition of fun when i looked it up in the dictionary it said that it was just light-hearted

00:05:21.220 amusement or pleasure light-hearted pleasure but when i reflected back on my own experiences of

00:05:27.720 things that really stood out to me as having been so fun like truly fun memories it wasn't just

00:05:33.400 light-hearted pleasure or amusement there was something much deeper going on and i decided to

00:05:37.600 ask the people on my mailing list if they would share fun memories with me because again i was trying

00:05:42.900 to see is this just me am i just like so fun starved at this moment that this is affecting me more than it

00:05:48.460 is other people but i ended up collecting literally thousands of stories from people around the

00:05:53.080 world and when i read through those stories i was just astonished by the depth of the joy that people

00:06:00.700 were expressing in these stories and the meaning you know it quickly became clear that these were some of

00:06:06.060 the most treasured memories they had from their lives and they weren't all dramatic which i think is a

00:06:11.080 really important point it wasn't all you know people on vacation or in an exotic spot it was these

00:06:16.840 mundane moments in many cases that still had this radiant joy coming through them you know one that

00:06:21.920 stands out to me in my mind was someone who told me that they'd had a ton of fun just going out in

00:06:26.380 the rain with their grandfather without umbrellas and just allowing themselves to be deliberately soaked

00:06:30.900 and i just love that there was something very poignant about it and i'm actually um in the process of

00:06:36.920 doing another what i call funtervention with the subscribers to my how to feel alive mailing list and

00:06:42.640 just this morning i was looking through some of the stories that people shared with me about

00:06:46.520 past experiences of fun and i had the same personal experience that i had when i was looking through

00:06:51.400 the initial batch of stories that people shared which is that i read through these stories and i

00:06:55.460 have this big smile on my face but i'm also actually welling up there's something very emotional about

00:07:00.060 it so all that is to say that the dictionary definition of fun the idea that it is just light-hearted

00:07:05.320 pleasure or amusement doesn't capture the depth of what the feeling of fun truly is

00:07:11.480 you know fun seems like something we just intuitively know and feel and that's you know

00:07:18.340 inherently free-flowing when you started this project of researching fun did you think am i

00:07:23.860 risking am i doing like vivisection here where by intentionally thinking about fun and studying it

00:07:30.660 i'm gonna kill it in the process um i didn't consciously think about that although i now i have a very 0.51

00:07:37.640 vivid image of fun is this personified thing splayed out on an examining table and then i'm 0.97

00:07:43.200 standing there with a scalpel like murdering it so thank you uh for that no i think it's kind of

00:07:50.100 similar to like romance or sex where like there's something natural about it right but like you also 0.97

00:07:55.140 could perhaps stand to benefit from thinking about it a bit too maybe not in the moment i don't think

00:08:00.440 you should be in the middle of a fun experience and be like okay hold on guys right let's talk about

00:08:04.840 what's making this fun you know you don't want to pull people out of the moment flow as we can talk

00:08:09.340 about is what one of the three components i believe is part of the definition of fun but i think there

00:08:15.060 is a real benefit to paying more attention to fun because a lot of times we have these fun moments

00:08:21.980 and we enjoy them but they kind of slip away because we don't identify them as fun we don't really pay

00:08:28.740 attention to them and that means that we don't really enjoy them as much as we could by reflecting

00:08:35.320 back and savoring them afterwards but we also miss out on learning about what made it fun for us

00:08:40.960 in hopes that we can actually put ourselves in more situations where fun might occur in the future

00:08:45.440 so i think you know you don't want to take yourself out of the moment but there is actually a benefit to

00:08:50.320 thinking about it and not just kind of assuming it's going to happen because especially as we become

00:08:55.140 adults and our lives get busier and we take on more responsibilities it doesn't happen as often

00:09:01.280 or we don't notice it happening as often so i think it's actually a skill that's worth developing

00:09:06.220 okay so science doesn't have really good definitions of fun there's kind of fun adjacent definitions it's joy

00:09:15.020 it's amusement but during your research and you're talking with your fun squads that you've developed

00:09:21.360 through your mailing list that you have you made a distinction between true fun and fake fun

00:09:26.880 what's the difference between the two i'm gonna get very dorky here so thank you thank you for that

00:09:32.060 question yes so i i wanted to come up with a better definition of what fun is that better matched

00:09:39.080 the experiences that not only i but the people on my mailing list were having and were expressing when

00:09:45.160 they told me stories about fun and i noticed that there were three factors that popped up again and again

00:09:51.120 and again in people's stories three kind of psychological states they seemed to be in when

00:09:55.140 they had these moments of fun and the three states are playfulness connection and flow so i touched on

00:10:03.800 flow a minute ago but flow is the state you get into when you're completely actively engaged and present

00:10:10.200 in what you're doing you're in the zone you know like it's an athlete in the middle of a game it's a

00:10:15.080 musician playing a piece of music the psychologist who coined the term did a lot of work studying rock

00:10:19.900 climbers so you can imagine if you were actually scaling a rock face you are totally actively engaged

00:10:25.380 in what you're doing we can get into flow and in a conversation when we're working on something

00:10:30.580 there's many opportunities to be in flow the important thing about flow is that it's active

00:10:35.740 right so time passes very quickly when you're in flow and a lot of times people will say oh

00:10:39.680 that happens when i watch netflix and it's like yes you you lose track of time when you watch

00:10:43.740 netflix but that's what's considered to be junk flow because it's sort of passive consumption

00:10:48.320 true flow is this active engaged present state then playfulness i always like to clarify for adults

00:10:54.300 because a lot of adults kind of clench up when they i mean i can see it when i give talks you say

00:10:58.400 playfulness so there's all these grown-ups who kind of get a little bit more like rigid in their

00:11:03.000 seats it doesn't mean that you have to be childish necessarily or silly or you know play charades

00:11:09.120 or make believe or something like that those are two of my personal nightmares it's really about

00:11:13.380 the attitude that you bring to situations so coming at life with a light-hearted attitude

00:11:17.960 finding ways to laugh not taking yourself too seriously you know letting your guard down there's

00:11:23.980 actually something beautifully vulnerable about being in a state of playfulness and fun so it's

00:11:29.320 really the attitude that you're bringing to things and then connection was very interesting because i

00:11:33.520 noticed in the vast vast majority of stories that people shared with me another person was involved

00:11:39.140 in their experience of fun and i followed up the request for stories by actually asking people

00:11:45.040 on the mailing list like a series of questions and these poor people actually answered them so this

00:11:48.720 was my my research project here but i gave them this list of descriptors and i asked them to pick

00:11:53.500 ones that would apply to what they had just told me and the two top choices that people picked

00:11:58.840 were laughter which i thought was very telling but also special shared experience the feeling that you

00:12:03.760 had a special shared experience with someone else there were times when that someone else was a dog

00:12:08.640 there were occasional times when it was a sense of connection with the physical environment or the

00:12:14.980 activity or yourself but really most people told stories with other people on them and that was true

00:12:20.920 even for introverts in fact a number of people said something along the lines of i'm a self-proclaimed

00:12:25.580 introvert and yet all of the stories that i just told you involved another person

00:12:29.080 so i came to believe that true fun as i call it is the confluence of these three states it's the center of the

00:12:35.660 venn diagram of playfulness connection and flow and as we can talk more about if you'd like i think that

00:12:42.600 it is actually a really useful definition because once you break fun down to these three components

00:12:47.840 of playfulness and connection and flow it gives you a much more accessible entry point in terms of

00:12:52.760 figuring out ways to have more fun in your daily life and then to go back to your original question

00:12:57.740 of why do i say true fun instead of just fun it's because i have this other concept that came to me

00:13:03.240 when i was doing my research called fake fun because i realized oh we use the word fun really

00:13:07.820 casually in our everyday speech to describe all sorts of feelings and activities some of which are

00:13:13.240 truly fun that lead to this energizing nourishing state of playful connected flow but others that

00:13:17.920 are almost like junk food they're very appealing easy to spend time on but you don't end up feeling

00:13:22.700 nourished afterwards and that you know the biggest culprit by far i would say is social media

00:13:27.640 in that regard and then things like binge watching television beyond the point of enjoyment you know

00:13:33.320 where you end up feeling gross afterwards so i decided to refer to those types of experiences and

00:13:38.260 activities as fake fun meaning something that's marketed to us as fun but it doesn't actually

00:13:44.700 result in playful connected flow and then i do like to clarify too like those are two big buckets

00:13:49.620 right like you've things that produce true fun things that lead to fake fun but i also think there's

00:13:53.640 another third category of things we do with our leisure time which are things that are just enjoyable

00:13:58.200 and nourishing maybe relaxing maybe more solitary that don't lead to true fun but they're still

00:14:05.640 really worthwhile and those would be things like you know going for a walk or watching a tv show before

00:14:11.800 you end up feeling gross about it or reading a book something that's a little bit quieter and i think

00:14:16.700 that that's useful useful to make this distinction about these three categories because it means that you can

00:14:21.880 come into your leisure time much more consciously and you can be more aware of the fake fun so that

00:14:28.160 ideally you can reduce or eliminate it because it ends up feeling like a waste of time and then you

00:14:32.460 can ask yourself well do i need something that's really energizing right now in which case maybe i

00:14:37.500 should do something that might lead to true fun or do i just need something that's going to help me

00:14:41.020 decompress and relax and nourish myself in a different way and then you can choose from your list of

00:14:46.520 enjoyable activities so for me at least it's really helped me make much more intentional use of my leisure time

00:14:51.400 something you talk about and this goes along with your last book that you wrote about breaking up with your

00:14:55.800 phone is that a big reason we default to fake fun over true fun in the modern world is that our phones

00:15:03.300 are always ready to distract us into just passive scrolling and passive amusement that's it isn't really fun

00:15:11.060 i mean you have to be present to have flow so you say that anything that distracts you is going to prevent you

00:15:16.400 from having that true fun but then also something you say that prevents us from having fun is just

00:15:22.440 being over committed you know being busy with all the stuff that's going on in our life work school

00:15:27.620 kids and the other issue with having fun is that it takes other people to have fun but those other

00:15:33.360 people are also busy with their lives so it's hard to get together with people and i know i've seen this

00:15:37.920 in my own life and i'm sure other people can relate where you know you want to get together with some

00:15:42.380 friends for something but then you have to plan for it like three weeks in advance it's like 237

00:15:48.360 texts go back and forth yeah um because everyone has different schedules because you know one kid's

00:15:53.900 doing basketball another kid's doing some other thing and yeah it's i think i think youth soccer

00:15:59.740 maybe that's one of the major impediments to adult fun yeah right exactly the traveling team you say

00:16:05.720 another thing that gets in the way of our fun is that we just we think it's just frivolous right it's

00:16:11.000 it's a nice thing to do when you got the time but it's not important it's not something worth

00:16:15.600 prioritizing but not only you make the case that not only is fun something valuable in and of itself

00:16:21.480 you can make a utilitarian case for being proactive about having fun when you highlight all these

00:16:27.340 benefits that come with having fun it can keep you present it can unify a group of people it can boost

00:16:33.100 your happiness it can make us more creative and it can actually you know ultimately make us more

00:16:38.540 productive and then you also talk about that fun has a bunch of benefits for physical health yeah i

00:16:44.120 found this to be absolutely fascinating so as i said i'm a science journalist by background that was

00:16:48.260 inspired by the fact that i have type 1 diabetes and so i'm constantly thinking about how our

00:16:52.300 environments and our behaviors affect our physical health and i realized that you know two of the

00:16:57.740 biggest factors that are impeding our physical health these days are stress and loneliness loneliness

00:17:05.500 and isolation and the reason that those two factors are so bad for us is that emotional stress and

00:17:11.820 loneliness and isolation spike our levels of cortisol which is a stress hormone that's there to help us

00:17:17.140 respond to physical threats so cortisol does stuff like increase our heart rate or our blood pressure or

00:17:22.460 our blood glucose and it empowers us and enables us to flee from a physical threat but it's not good if

00:17:28.820 it's elevated chronically over time in response to emotional stressors and when you recognize what cortisol does in

00:17:34.440 the body you know with the heart rate blood pressure blood sugar among other things you can see why

00:17:39.140 it's associated with an elevated risk for things like heart attack and stroke and type 2 diabetes and

00:17:44.380 obesity so the reason i bring that up is that if you buy my definition that fun is a state of playful

00:17:50.100 connected flow it is by definition a relaxed state in which you are not experiencing emotional

00:17:56.160 stress and it's also a state of social connection so you're not lonely and isolated when you're having fun

00:18:02.860 so i just thought that was fascinating because again while i don't know of any research studies

00:18:07.700 that have looked directly at this definition of fun and could give you a footnote on this i think it

00:18:12.500 stands to reason that by relaxing us and putting us into more situations of social connection

00:18:19.120 fun can actually be considered to be a health intervention

00:18:22.180 no i'd agree and i i've seen that in my own life where when i do make time for fun i think your

00:18:28.340 definition's on it's that playful connection the flow state you know you you make plans for

00:18:34.420 things that are fun and you're like oh my gosh it's gonna be a lot of work uh you know getting ready

00:18:40.280 for a camping trip uh getting ready for uh you know a cookout or something like that like that's

00:18:45.660 that's true the gear yeah no yeah find that fun but yes i agree with you the packing packing list

00:18:51.020 yeah and that's why you put it off i actually we've got some friends that they're one of their

00:18:55.180 saying is having fun is a lot of work but it's worth it um but i notice when i when i make the time

00:19:00.480 for fun i see these benefits in my life i just feel energized with my work um i get new ideas i'm more

00:19:07.160 relaxed even if i you know stayed up late talking with friends the next day i feel great yeah i'm curious

00:19:13.580 i mean when you're talking about the times in which you have fun can you can you share an

00:19:17.000 experience that stands out to you as having been truly fun oh sure i mean just i just random getting

00:19:22.160 together with friends like on a weeknight and just talking and having conversation i find conversation

00:19:27.820 very fun you get in the flow there's a playfulness to it and there's that connection aspect backpacking

00:19:35.380 is another one i like our family likes to do again backpacking is a lot of work so you have to get

00:19:40.200 the gear and then plan where you're gonna go and get the food and travel there but once you actually

00:19:46.100 do it it feels great those are the ones that stick out to me off the top of my head i think it's

00:19:53.800 interesting too because you kind of alluded to something that i always like to point out to people

00:19:58.700 is that it's not necessarily people tend to think that the fun is the activity itself but what i've

00:20:04.480 realized reading through people's stories and reflecting on this is that the fun is the feeling that

00:20:08.680 results from the activity which i think is really important going back to what gets in the way of

00:20:13.100 our ability to have fun as adults or in modern life and this busyness people kind of assume that if

00:20:18.160 they're going to have more fun then they need to do more things like backpacking trips and i do think

00:20:21.820 you know if that typically leads to fun for people they you should prioritize it but you don't

00:20:26.080 necessarily need to do that if you recognize that oh i can also have this feeling of fun like you're

00:20:30.000 saying from talking with friends or maybe there's particular friends who are particularly fun

00:20:34.140 to talk to who produce this feeling because what i realized for myself it's like you can

00:20:38.700 do the exact same quote-unquote fun activity and sometimes it's really fun and then sometimes it's

00:20:45.100 not fun at all and then sometimes it's just in the middle like i'm sure with your backpacking trips you

00:20:49.240 could probably you know rattle off like a few that fall into each of those categories and i think

00:20:53.700 that's such an important insight it has been for me at least to be like oh okay i need to put less

00:20:58.680 pressure on the activity itself and just seek out like situations where i can get this feeling

00:21:04.400 i mean with that said i also i also think that there's what i call fun magnets which is a term i

00:21:10.600 totally made up that refers to each of our personal collection of activities and people and settings

00:21:17.380 that are more likely than others to produce this feeling of fun for us so you know for example one of

00:21:23.680 my fun magnets is playing music with friends like that just really and it's a particular group of

00:21:28.900 friends so that very often if not always results in some level of true fun for me and so i make a

00:21:34.720 point to prioritize that my husband on the other hand like you know he he doesn't play an instrument

00:21:39.020 so that's not a fun magnet for him at all that's kind of a boring night out and then for him he loves

00:21:45.740 overnight camping trips i have bad knees and diabetes has not lend itself well to you know trail mix and like

00:21:52.900 pasta and so i'm not i mean i love being outside but i'm not as much of a fan of overnight camping

00:21:58.000 trips those are much more of a fun magnet for him and so i encourage listeners to kind of think back

00:22:03.000 on your own fun memories and ask yourself are there any themes that stand out you know any activities

00:22:09.300 that stand out to you or people or context or settings because those are probably your fun magnets

00:22:14.640 and it's important to then prioritize them and also if you're in a relationship get to know your

00:22:20.380 partner's fun magnets or your kids fun magnets or you know just other people's fun magnets and

00:22:25.300 now i'm veering into couples therapy mode i'm not a couples therapist but you know i think it's really

00:22:31.460 important for people in relationships to recognize each other's fun magnets and to give the other person

00:22:36.600 space for theirs and to encourage them to prioritize it in addition to figuring out what fun magnets you

00:22:42.360 share and doing those together but i'm so grateful to my husband that he recognizes how important music is

00:22:47.940 to me and he'll take care of our kid like when i am out playing with my friends it makes such a difference

00:22:52.900 it's so good for our relationship and honestly for for me in terms of my ability to be a

00:22:57.700 a good partner and parent so when people ask me how can i have more fun i think about it

00:23:03.380 in two like two angles to it i feel like i'm starting to sound like an engineer you know just

00:23:09.100 engineer your fun magnets you can make more fun in your life so there's that side of things which

00:23:13.680 gets back to your vivisection um analogy but i think it's very important it's like okay we'll

00:23:18.880 figure out what would be what's likely to lead to fun for you and the people in your life and then

00:23:23.600 create space for it like that's the one side and then what i've also realized is that you also then

00:23:28.640 have this like element of fun as you were also alluding to that's spontaneous that can't be planned

00:23:33.460 for so i think that we need to come at it from two different angles one is all right what are your

00:23:37.700 fun magnets you know what typically generates fun for you how can you prioritize it how can you make

00:23:42.420 space for those things in the life of someone you care about and then on the other side how do you

00:23:47.680 open yourself up more to spontaneity and that's where i think it's so important to ask yourself

00:23:52.080 okay well how can i make more space in my life in general if it's by saying no to some obligations

00:23:56.880 that are no longer essential or enjoyable or if it's by making a point to look up from your phone

00:24:02.660 instead of down at your phone just so you can kind of present yourself to the world as someone who could

00:24:06.820 be interacted with i mean that i think is enormously important is just to be more present in the world

00:24:12.180 because there's actually opportunities for little moments of fun around us all the time if we start

00:24:18.080 to become better at kind of paying attention to them and seeking them out there was a story someone

00:24:22.820 told me once he was a comedian actually and he told me the story about how he had had what he described

00:24:27.500 as two hours of true fun with his nephew and he said all they were doing were sitting on this park bench

00:24:34.020 and they were trying to catch leaves as they fell off of a tree and when he told me that story i was like

00:24:39.980 oh my god you just get it's like a perfect literal metaphor because you were literally catching little

00:24:45.780 moments of you know leaves off of a tree but the metaphor is that there actually are these

00:24:50.200 opportunities for fun floating around us all the time we just need to be better at reaching out and

00:24:53.980 grabbing them so i was very appreciative to him for telling me that story it really created a lovely

00:25:00.180 image in my own mind we're gonna take a quick break for your words from our sponsors

00:25:03.900 and now back to the show well i'm going back to this idea that fun isn't necessarily the activity

00:25:16.120 that you do it's the feeling you get from an activity because fun is subjective right like as you

00:25:22.220 alluded to one person can think one activities is fun and the other person can think boy this this is

00:25:29.240 terrible like i i need to stop this and i'm sure we've all had that experience where we've seen

00:25:34.740 something that looks like fun like you see other people having fun doing said activity and they're

00:25:40.620 well i'm gonna go do that and you're like oh man are we having fun yet like this is terrible like

00:25:45.160 what is going on here um yeah so let's talk about you do have this idea of a fun audit like figure out

00:25:50.780 what brings fun in your life so are there questions that you found that are really useful to help you

00:25:56.480 figure out what are the factors or what are the magnets in an activity that allow me to have fun

00:26:03.160 like how do you feel like some people might be listening like i can't remember last time i had

00:26:06.040 fun so i don't know i'm not okay you're not alone yeah so how do you figure this out how do you figure

00:26:11.900 out get in touch with what's fun for you yeah well i mean i really would say like don't worry if

00:26:16.940 you're listening to this and you're like oh my god my life is so lame i don't know i don't even know

00:26:21.960 what fun is like you're okay you do know what fun is it's just been maybe you've never thought

00:26:27.220 consciously about it totally fine we can help you through this um i would suggest like the first

00:26:32.780 thing to do is what we've been talking about which is actually like set aside a little bit of time

00:26:36.580 and think back even just on 2023 just like huh what's a fun memory that stands out don't put too

00:26:42.300 much pressure on it you know like don't it doesn't necessarily have to be the most fun you ever had

00:26:45.940 in your life but just like what stands out as fun and just start with this kind of like low bar

00:26:50.260 because once you start tapping into this type of memory you may find that you start to come up with

00:26:55.360 more and more you know it becomes easier i also would recommend doing that with someone you know

00:27:00.520 a friend or your spouse or partner or your kid whoever just like actually have a conversation

00:27:05.080 but like let's think back like what were some fun memories that that stand out to us and if you're

00:27:09.780 the kind of person who likes taking notes you can actually like just jot down some of these

00:27:13.500 memories i think that can be useful and then what you want to do is not only notice what

00:27:17.560 it feels like in your body and in your mind to think about past fun and to hear someone else talk

00:27:24.140 about past fun it's a very a joyful experience i found but then you can look at your stories and

00:27:29.900 you can as i was saying earlier you can ask yourself is there any like themes that come out so you'll

00:27:34.520 take the story and then you can ask yourself okay what are some of my fun magnets you know what people

00:27:38.580 just really help me get into this state of playful connected flow or their particular settings

00:27:43.620 you know for me like i loved camp as a child or as a teenager and even as an adult i organized camp 0.68

00:27:49.680 weekends for groups of my friends and going back to what you were saying total pain in the butt to

00:27:54.160 organize these weekends it is not fun to do all the logistics but i know that summer camp is for me a

00:27:59.440 context in which i tend to have a lot of fun you know it leads to this playfulness and this connection

00:28:03.820 and then you can also ask yourself like what are the activities that typically lead to fun that might be

00:28:08.520 the easiest one because you know we all of us i think can identify activities that we typically

00:28:13.780 enjoy like we're normally not too horrible about that it's just recognizing that oh yeah yeah that's

00:28:19.160 a fun magnet like i actually should prioritize that because of the fun but you might also want to ask

00:28:22.940 yourself for like the non-obvious activities for example what you just said like hanging out with

00:28:27.300 friends at night and having conversations it doesn't sound like an activity you list on a list of

00:28:33.340 hobbies per se but it's something that leads to fun so it takes some time to try to figure out these

00:28:39.300 themes so that you can pull out these fun magnets and again the benefit of that is that then you can

00:28:44.580 actually reserve time for those things on your schedule actually prioritize them in the same way

00:28:49.200 you'd prioritize i would hope a doctor's appointment or some kind of important meeting and then if you

00:28:54.200 want to take it a step further i think it's kind of fun to try to figure out what i call your fun

00:28:58.240 factors which is the characteristics of those people and settings and activities that make them

00:29:03.900 fun so for example if one of your fun magnets is backpacking trips maybe one of your fun factors is

00:29:10.720 nature like being outside in nature maybe it's the particular type of group you're with when you're

00:29:16.000 out in nature maybe it's the physical activity that tends to lead to fun for you like for me clearly

00:29:22.820 music is a fun factor for me because when music is involved i tend to have more fun

00:29:27.380 there's the element of community and creation that tends to lead to fun for me but just as an

00:29:35.640 example if we use you know me playing music with friends as an example um that we can draw from

00:29:39.580 another fun factor for a lot of people is performance right like you might find the

00:29:43.920 performing aspect really fun and i realized for me that's actually really not what it's about like

00:29:48.060 it is about creating something with a group of people and feeling very connected to them in the

00:29:52.080 moment and if we perform that's kind of like an added bonus that might be fun might not be fun

00:29:56.020 but it's not a primary driver for me in terms of fun and so i'd recommend kind of figuring out

00:30:02.120 these characteristics these fun factors because it can help you generate new ideas for things to try

00:30:07.480 because one of the shortcuts and kind of hacks to fun is to try new things ideally with other people

00:30:13.780 right like if we wanted to condense our conversation it's just like a sentence and the people like how

00:30:17.480 can i have more fun i'd say okay we'll try something new with another person you know and also more

00:30:22.720 situations where you're laughing if you're laughing you're probably having fun so if you want like a

00:30:26.140 tell for when you're having fun there's probably you probably laughed but anyway that so i think

00:30:30.200 that those are some of the steps i'd recommend starting with in terms of trying to figure out

00:30:34.320 like what you can actually prioritize and plan for and kind of play around with like what can you

00:30:40.200 experiment with um i actually yeah i've done a bunch of that myself like one of the things that this

00:30:45.620 whole process has led to as i said i took up the guitar i already played piano but i don't know i got

00:30:51.020 invited randomly to a drum class one time and i was like oh okay i don't know i'll try drumming that

00:30:55.200 sounds like it could be fun and now that's like my obsession i love drumming it is so so so so so

00:31:00.440 fun even though it was a little scary to start you know it's like a hard thing and it's trying

00:31:05.320 anything new can be a little bit intimidating but i'm so grateful i did so i would play around with

00:31:09.920 that and then on the flip side again in terms of figuring out ways to invite more fun into your

00:31:14.740 life we do need to create a little bit more mental space and i do think that starting with

00:31:19.400 your phone is a very very good place to start is how can you create better boundaries with your phone

00:31:24.760 whether it's by reducing notifications or creating physical boundaries where you you know for example

00:31:29.600 i charge my phone at night in the closet creating no phone zones where your phone just isn't around

00:31:34.280 so if you're trying to if you're with people put your phone away because if your phone's out it's

00:31:38.680 going to kind of distract you a little bit and that's going to get in the way of your potential

00:31:41.840 ability to lose yourself in the moment and to have fun or if you're in an uber for example like

00:31:46.500 maybe don't have your phone out i'm not saying that you have to get into a conversation with the

00:31:51.420 uber driver like it might not lead to you know true fun but it'll at least give you a little bit

00:31:56.060 more of a moment to engage in the world just as a side anecdote this is kind of sad but i try to do

00:32:01.240 that myself when i'm taking you know ride share things and i've had now three separate drivers ask

00:32:07.140 me if i'm okay because i've been looking out the window and i'm like yeah i was looking at a cloud

00:32:13.800 right and they're like okay i'm just checking i'm like oh my god so i get maybe that's inspiring

00:32:18.560 because it's like very low-hanging fruit anything you can do to create better boundaries with your

00:32:21.820 phone is probably going to make you more present and like open yourself up to more opportunities but

00:32:26.000 one more concrete example that i've had two separate people recently tell me about past experiences of

00:32:31.620 true fun when they were waiting in the airport for a delayed flight right like how unfun and i think

00:32:38.260 that really speaks to the fact that it's a feeling and not an activity because literally nobody

00:32:42.500 would say you know what's on my list of fun times like airport delays but in both cases it was

00:32:49.140 because this they ended up having some kind of um engagement with the people around them one guy

00:32:53.960 told me he had gotten into this very funny conversation with some of the other people

00:32:58.280 in line with him like waiting for the customer service desk i mean he was like glowing telling me

00:33:02.240 about this and then someone just told me about the adventures they ended up having with their

00:33:05.760 family when they were stuck in the airport and they kind of went on this exploration and they were

00:33:10.240 like i never would have chosen to do this it doesn't sound like it would have been fun at all

00:33:13.660 but we ended up actually having a really great time together yeah that reminds me of a time my family

00:33:19.100 we landed in chicago it was a layover because we're on our way home to tulsa but then my wife she 1.00

00:33:24.320 realized that she accidentally booked an itinerary that had it was like and it was a seven hour layover

00:33:30.980 chicago and at first we were just like oh my gosh this is awful as the worst news ever but then we

00:33:36.640 decided to take a taxi to see the chicago children's museum and we ended up having a blast on that

00:33:42.680 layover and like what else did we oh yeah we got a great hot dog a great chicago hot dog as well

00:33:46.740 so i mean you're not at the mercy of circumstances you can convert you know what seemingly seems like

00:33:52.720 a bad circumstance into fun okay so in this fun audit look back on the past year and you also

00:33:59.340 recommend having people look back when they were a kid yeah i think that can be useful too like what

00:34:03.980 did you love doing when you were you know nine years old when you were 13 years old when you were

00:34:08.040 17 years old like what did you used to be passionate about before life got in the way you know um and

00:34:14.360 that can be really useful because you can you probably can tap back into some of that like if you used to

00:34:18.280 play a lot of music i mean sorry i keep talking about that i'm like literally looking at my guitar but

00:34:21.800 there's probably a way to do a little bit of that or if you loved a sport like is there a way to get

00:34:26.480 back in touch with something that's physical even if it's not necessarily that sport per se but yeah look

00:34:31.940 back on your own life because again i think we've all had fun thankfully at some point so it's a

00:34:38.500 matter of paying more attention to it so you can kind of identify it like you can probably identify

00:34:43.480 most of the moments from your life in which you were truly terrified right because our brains are

00:34:48.300 very good at remembering negative frightening things it's a evolutionary strategy to keep us alive

00:34:55.520 is to be very attuned to threats it takes much more conscious effort to attune yourself to

00:34:59.660 things that make you feel good no yeah and so when you look back look for signs of fun of that

00:35:05.360 playfulness connection flow so you talk about signs you mentioned some of them laughter feeling like

00:35:11.140 you're connected to to other people losing track of time um you know feeling childlike excitement and

00:35:18.180 joy is another sign yeah so if you see those things in those moments as you look back in your life or

00:35:23.000 your year then that's how you figure out what those fun magnets are and what those fun factors are

00:35:27.840 as you said there's certain people like it might be just certain people that you spend time with that

00:35:32.040 allow you to have fun i know my wife and i we've got some good friends of ours uh they used to live

00:35:37.620 here in oklahoma but then they moved but we have a lot of fun with them so like we still once a year

00:35:43.800 try to get together to do something with them because we know we'll have fun yeah it's so important i think

00:35:50.460 that's so easy to let slip you know it's just oh we're going to figure out the logistics and so years

00:35:56.600 can go by and you don't see some of your favorite people that's something that's changed for me in

00:36:01.240 the past couple years the reason i started organizing these summer camp weekends for friends was that a

00:36:05.280 friend of mine from college a dear friend whom i don't see as often as i should although i will say

00:36:09.380 we did a summer camp this summer together but his dad died like in i think in 2016 and i went to

00:36:15.660 his memorial service and there were 200 300 i don't know how many people he was professor and he

00:36:20.200 was quite beloved celebrating him and i thought oh my god like this is both amazing but it's also so

00:36:25.660 sad that he's not here and that it took his death to bring these people together and i mean not to get

00:36:31.140 all existential but i'm like why are we not doing this when we're alive so that's when i started

00:36:35.420 organizing these weekends and it's been wonderful so yeah i would say definitely think about who you

00:36:41.440 have fun with who do you love being around and make it happen and on the flip side there's probably

00:36:47.040 people in your life that are not fun and obviously there's some people like that you're just going to

00:36:52.100 have to deal with if it's a co-worker or your boss or you know whatever or like a family member that you

00:36:56.320 just don't enjoy being around but there are other people whom you do have more choice with and they

00:37:02.280 might even be people that you were friends with for long ago and you're just actually not that good

00:37:07.320 friends now but you've kind of like you're keeping it up just because like maybe maybe let some of

00:37:11.620 those go because again our lives are very full and it's our time and attention are both zero sum

00:37:17.220 when you pay attention or spend time on one thing you can't spend time or attention on something else

00:37:22.980 so you need to clear out space so i'd also encourage that kind of reflection like oh is does someone

00:37:28.600 consistently actually bring me down when i'm with them because maybe i want to try to spend a bit less

00:37:33.100 time with them okay so once you figure out what your fun factors are your fun magnets are

00:37:37.360 you gotta start trying to be more intentional about having fun so you have this acronym spark

00:37:42.400 on how to have more fun s is for make more space p is for pursue passions a is for attract fun r is for

00:37:49.920 rebel and k is for keeping at it we've talked about some of these things you talk about making space so

00:37:55.660 if you if you're over committed see if there's things you can get rid of in your life so you can have

00:38:00.280 more time for fun do you talk about changing your relationship with your phone because that just

00:38:04.820 will suck you into fake fun so spend less time on your phone and make more time for you know actual 0.67

00:38:09.860 true fun the things that really bring you joy but i want to talk about this idea of attracting fun

00:38:14.500 i think a lot of what we've been talking about so far is how to have big fun right like those you know

00:38:19.940 things that might take a lot of planning so like a backpacking trip or maybe you're going to go see a

00:38:25.060 concert with some friends but what about just like that spontaneous fun right like how can you

00:38:29.940 attract more of that just sort of like day-to-day life you you have more of those feelings of fun

00:38:35.160 where it's playfulness connection and flow yeah so attract fun um part of that involves what i call

00:38:43.380 adopting a fun mindset which is a playoff of growth mindset and so it's basically like opening yourself

00:38:49.240 to opportunities of fun that might already exist and then also seeking out ways that you might be able

00:38:54.280 to create those moments of fun by which i mean moments of playfulness connection or flow they

00:39:00.180 don't all have to happen at once if you hit i think of it as being like a like a target and you're

00:39:04.560 playing darts you just want to hit anywhere well if you're me playing darts you want to hit anywhere

00:39:08.760 on the board you're pretty psyched and then the closer you get to the center the better right so if

00:39:14.380 you are in a moment of flow that's great and if it's also playable even better and if you're also

00:39:18.860 connected and like great then you hit the bullseye so one way to do so is to adopt the practice that

00:39:25.220 improv comedians talk about a lot which is yes and which basically is not just shutting things down

00:39:31.900 automatically and trying to both be open to new ideas and to build on them so in an improv comedy

00:39:39.240 setting if someone makes a suggestion on stage if they say like i'm santa claus your response should

00:39:44.880 not be no you're not it should be oh you are and like here's a present i don't know you do something

00:39:50.920 else the reason that stands out to me is because i took an improv comedy class once and it turns out

00:39:55.220 i'm horrible at improv comedy i love it but i'm horrible at it and someone did say i'm santa claus

00:40:00.220 and my response was no you're not and then they called scene so it's a little traumatic uh not fun for

00:40:06.240 me but anyway but if you can kind of adopt this attitude where you say yes to opportunities or you say

00:40:12.440 yes to ideas i've got one friend who tries to do this like she does this all the time i mean 1.00

00:40:17.400 i remember thanking her for saying yes to some weird invitation i'd extended to her and she just goes

00:40:23.800 i always try you know and i just thought that was so beautiful it's like try to be that person who says

00:40:29.320 yes you know and then try to be that person who then builds on it and brings a bit more playfulness

00:40:34.840 to the situation or a bit more you know connection or what have you or someone who invites other people

00:40:39.820 to do stuff so that's part of adopting this fun mindset the other way is to adopt practices where

00:40:46.940 you're just trying to help people i mean this is a little specific but the practice of noticing and

00:40:52.420 sharing things that delight you is a way to kind of shortcut into having a fun mindset so the idea

00:40:59.120 there and this is an idea i got from the book of delights by the poet ross gay which i highly recommend

00:41:03.840 is basically just instead of like allowing your brain to naturally tune into all the negative scary

00:41:10.000 things out there you make a conscious decision you're just going to scan your environment throughout

00:41:13.400 your day for anything that delights you and when you notice something that delights you it doesn't have

00:41:17.980 to be deep you know i get a lot of delight out of squirrels you put a finger in the air and you say

00:41:24.220 out loud delight which sounds ridiculous perhaps not inherently manly but i will tell you i've suggested

00:41:31.080 this at a number of conferences and i had a very funny experience where i walked past some men who

00:41:35.220 are coming out of the men's room and one of them saw me and he goes we were just talking about

00:41:39.920 delight at the urinals and i was like i have so many questions for you but i also delight that is

00:41:44.560 itself a delight i'm delighted that you told me that and that whatever happened in there happened

00:41:48.080 so my point is that if you get into this practice of noticing delights it really can boost your spirits

00:41:53.980 and it can help train you to get into a fun mindset by noticing these moments of levity and absurdity

00:42:00.240 and beauty and what have you that exist and if you take it a step further and you share your

00:42:04.760 delights with other people and i think this is a lovely thing to do with your family in particular

00:42:08.200 like i do this with my daughter she's eight and we share delights with each other another thing you

00:42:12.620 can do is to think about ways that you could just bring delight to other people right like how could

00:42:18.000 you do something that would brighten someone else's day because chances are it will brighten your day

00:42:22.040 too and you can actually become a quote-unquote fun person simply by shifting your attitude and i think

00:42:27.660 that's the deeper message here is that when i asked people because i did this in my big survey that i

00:42:31.980 sent to my mailing list when i was researching my book i said describe someone from your life that

00:42:36.940 you think of as a fun person and then tell me what makes them fun you know and i guess i kind of assumed

00:42:42.520 like i think many people would that people would describe people who were the quote-unquote life of

00:42:46.160 the party or like the class clown or someone who was kind of exuberant and boisterous and that was not

00:42:50.820 always the case there were a lot of examples where the person who was quote-unquote fun

00:42:56.120 was considered to be fun because they did things like say yes to things or make people feel

00:43:02.200 comfortable in their presence or you know laugh along with people not necessarily be the source

00:43:07.780 of the laughter but be the person who laughs and i thought that was really interesting because it

00:43:12.880 shows that you don't have to be extroverted to be a quote fun person it really is all about adopting

00:43:17.140 this fun mindset and just to go back to the delight example like an example of how i decided to spread

00:43:22.460 delight is at some point i was at a talk and someone showed me these pictures of portable disco

00:43:27.620 balls that they had been using to great effect in their own life and i realized that said disco

00:43:32.460 balls were like 9.99 on amazon and so i went online and i just bought like four of these disco

00:43:38.440 balls i mean obviously one for myself but then i just sent them to friends with like no explanation

00:43:43.040 just as a way to delight them and it was just such a treat then people wrote back to me you know my

00:43:47.900 my best friend from journalism school was like oh thank you for the disco ball you know my daughter

00:43:51.840 loves it and i wrote back i was like that was not for your daughter but you know it's like what can

00:43:56.560 you do to just brighten someone's day and then also what can you do for yourself to help you get a kick

00:44:02.760 out of your own life like it's okay to enjoy your own life it's actually really important because

00:44:08.300 you'll be able to bring so much more positive energy to everything you do if you're enjoying your own

00:44:13.400 life and that's part of the fun mindset and it's also part of the r in the spark acronym which is

00:44:19.000 rebel which actually was probably my favorite one of all five of those letters because i noticed in

00:44:24.440 stories that people sent me there often was this element of playful rebellion in them this kind of

00:44:30.000 like breaking the rules of responsible adulthood just a little bit not like doing anything illegal but

00:44:34.920 just doing something you wouldn't expect a quote-unquote responsible grown-up to do so for example the

00:44:39.580 woman who showed me the disco balls the context was that she worked for a financial a major financial 1.00

00:44:44.680 firm and she was showing me a video of her and her co-workers in their 40s in one of their basements

00:44:52.680 it was an unfinished basement and they all were on roller skates doing a disco party and they had these

00:44:58.700 balls you know on and one of them was dressed as a butterfly i don't know it was very odd totally

00:45:04.140 delightful and i was like wow that is not what you would think and i don't think that they were like

00:45:08.060 incredibly drunk or anything they were just having a fun time being playful and like just doing

00:45:12.480 something goofy together and i just love that as an example of a form of rebellion not what you would

00:45:17.660 expect these people to be doing and i think there's an element of the sense of rebellion that itself

00:45:22.700 generates fun just doing something a little bit i mean naughty might be too strong even but even

00:45:28.560 something like you know instead of listening to the news when you drive home today like turn on a song

00:45:33.700 that you loved when you were a teenager and just sing along to it you know maybe even like air drum

00:45:37.680 like do something like that where you're just like doing something that you get a kick out of just

00:45:41.540 because you get a kick out of it and then notice what difference it makes in your own mood to just

00:45:45.500 seek out opportunities to do things like that for yourself and for other people yeah this idea of

00:45:49.480 rebel made me think i want to do this with my kids and i need to do more in my life have a ferris

00:45:55.160 bueller day oh yeah right where you just you call into school you call into work you just say hey i'm not

00:46:00.920 coming in today and it's not because you're sick it's because you just want to go do ferris bueller

00:46:06.440 stuff you want to go to a baseball game in the middle of the day you want to go to a museum

00:46:10.540 that's that could be fun so like yeah find a ferris bueller day for yourself i think that's a great

00:46:15.680 idea it's also like pretty much my favorite movie of all time but yeah exactly you know and i think

00:46:20.100 that's why people love that movie because it's like the condensation like that is fun you know

00:46:25.600 ferris bueller is fun that day is fun we all of the generation that grew up with that movie

00:46:30.460 can probably quote numerous things from that movie you know and like the whole like twist and

00:46:35.580 shut everything about that is fun so yes i would highly recommend finding a way to create more

00:46:40.460 ferris bueller moments just like play hooky like people need to play hooky more often we need to

00:46:44.380 play hooky and and the irony is that you think it's going to make you less productive or whatever but

00:46:48.380 it's not because you're going to come back refreshed you're going to have a wonderful time it's going to

00:46:52.320 energize you and those are the moments that you remember you know like i remember ferris

00:46:56.920 bueller's day off and i was not in the movie right cameron yeah you know yeah you're right like

00:47:01.780 ferris bueller's the fun movie yeah yeah there's playfulness there's connection and then there's

00:47:07.960 flow yeah exactly exactly it's like a perfect example of it yeah or you know like i guess

00:47:13.560 rebellion i don't know how we're like when he goes in and pretends that he's the sausage king of

00:47:16.680 chicago like that's rebellious the whole thing obviously is rebellious oh i want to go watch that

00:47:20.840 movie now okay yeah the reason i came up my son just watched it he's 13 and he watched ferris

00:47:26.500 bueller and he thought it was the greatest movie ever i think i was 13 when i watched ferris bueller

00:47:29.860 okay yeah like i was like well is it still funny to people that didn't grow up with it no it's good

00:47:34.200 to know it still is it it stands well katherine this has been a great conversation uh where can people

00:47:39.860 go to learn more about the book in your work well i i would love it if people would sign up for my

00:47:44.580 newsletter uh it's called how to feel alive and if you search for katherine price and how to feel

00:47:49.640 alive you will find it it's technically on substack but if you want like a one-stop shop for all of my

00:47:54.500 stuff including the sign up for that it's katherine price katherine with a c.com yeah you can learn

00:47:59.880 about my books the newsletter i also have courses based on both of my books or both my most recent

00:48:04.740 books how to break up with your phone and the power of fun that walk you through the steps of the

00:48:07.900 book uh so i'd love to have some of your your listeners join the community yeah and just my whole

00:48:14.300 goal is to help people you know scroll less and live more and i myself am definitely included in

00:48:19.440 that the list of people who need that intervention so i'd love to have your listeners come along

00:48:23.680 fantastic well katherine price thanks for your time it's been a pleasure thank you so much this

00:48:27.680 has been truly fun and and you know i don't just say that well thank you my guest today was katherine

00:48:34.400 price she's the author of the book the power of fun it's available on amazon.com and bookstores

00:48:38.280 everywhere you can find more information about our work at our website katherineprice.com

00:48:42.180 also check out our show notes at am.is slash fun where you find links to resources

00:48:46.660 we can delve deeper into this topic

00:48:48.100 well that wraps up another edition of the a1 podcast make sure to check out our website at

00:48:59.700 artofmanliness.com where you can find our podcast archives and while you're there make sure to sign

00:49:03.820 up for our newsletter we have a daily option and a weekly option they're both free and it's the best

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00:49:19.580 or family member who you think we get something out of it as always thank you for the continued

00:49:23.480 support and until next time's brett mckay reminding you to listen to a1 podcast would put what you've

00:49:28.360 heard into action

00:49:29.260 you

00:49:36.060 you

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00:49:40.060 you

The Art of Manliness - January 17, 2024

Come Alive Again by Having More Fun

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