The Art of Manliness - Could Sleeping in Separate Beds Improve Your Relationship？

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:10.780 Now, when it comes to advice around getting better sleep, nearly all of it is directed

00:00:13.880 at the individual sleeper who feels they've got room to improve.

00:00:16.840 Here's what you might be doing wrong.

00:00:18.260 Here's how to straighten out your sleep hygiene.

00:00:19.800 Yet for the millions of people who are sleeping with someone else in their bed, this advice

00:00:23.140 leaves out a huge elephant in the room, the other person sharing your sheets.

00:00:27.020 As my guest today argues, a shared bed means shared sleep issues that need to be tackled

00:00:31.240 with shared solutions.

00:00:32.680 Her name is Dr. Wendy Troxell.

00:00:34.080 She's a clinical psychologist, a sleep specialist, and the author of Sharing the Covers, Every

00:00:37.980 Couple's Guide to Better Sleep.

00:00:39.480 We begin our conversation by discussing how sleep not only affects people's relationships,

00:00:42.880 but people's relationships affect their sleep, and how this bi-directional dynamic can become

00:00:46.760 either a vicious or virtuous cycle, depending on the quality of sleep a couple gets.

00:00:51.340 We then talk about the various issues couples deal with in sharing a bed, from snoring to

00:00:55.120 a mismatch in temperature preferences.

00:00:56.560 We also get into complications that come with bringing kids into the picture, and Wendy

00:01:00.340 gives her take on the issue of family co-sleeping.

00:01:02.660 From there, we turn to solutions for shared sleep problems and dig into the idea of sleeping

00:01:06.400 in separate beds.

00:01:07.820 Wendy impacts the way the taboo around separate sleeping has waxed and waned throughout history,

00:01:11.740 why it works for some couples, and the options for implementing it, from sleeping in separate

00:01:15.500 bedrooms to a more moderate approach called the Scandinavian method.

00:01:18.700 Wendy also gives advice to couples who want to continue to share the same bed, but struggle

00:01:22.300 with the fact that one person is a morning bird and the other is a night owl.

00:01:25.360 After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash shared sleep.

00:01:34.320 All right, Wendy Troxell, welcome to the show.

00:01:41.220 Thanks so much for having me.

00:01:42.180 It's a real pleasure.

00:01:42.740 So you are a sleep specialist, and you have studied how sleep problems manifest in individuals.

00:01:48.560 You also are a therapist.

00:01:49.620 You help people with their sleep problems as well.

00:01:51.940 But you also study how sleep problems can affect society and couples.

00:01:57.100 I'm curious, what led you down that path?

00:01:58.660 Well, when I first started my research career and I was pursuing my doctoral degree in clinical

00:02:03.400 and health psychology, I've always been fascinated by relationships and understanding how and why

00:02:09.620 relationships and, frankly, our social environments more generally are so important, not just for

00:02:15.780 our mental health, but also for our physical health.

00:02:18.320 So we know, for instance, that married people or partnered people live longer, happier, and healthier

00:02:25.000 lives than their unmarried or unpartnered counterparts.

00:02:28.940 And it's not just being married that matters for health.

00:02:31.340 It's really being in a high-quality relationship that can provide a real boost to your health,

00:02:36.060 including your risk of chronic illnesses such as heart disease.

00:02:39.780 What we don't know is how do these relationships get under the skin to impact such chronic health

00:02:47.320 conditions like heart disease?

00:02:48.800 And that's when I had this kind of aha moment that I had to start studying sleep and specifically

00:02:55.100 the role that sleep plays in the life of a couple and how sleep may help explain why some

00:03:01.480 relationships are health protective, whereas others may confer health risks.

00:03:06.320 Because we know, of course, that sleep is vitally important for our physical health and our mental

00:03:12.100 health, and it also happens to be the one health behavior that is traditionally shared among

00:03:19.340 couples.

00:03:20.720 And yet very few people in sleep research or throughout the history of sleep science have

00:03:25.440 studied sleep in the social context in which it occurs.

00:03:29.480 I mean, if you just think about the typical sleep laboratory setup, what do we do?

00:03:34.060 We bring individuals into a laboratory under tightly controlled conditions, and we isolate them

00:03:40.280 as much as possible.

00:03:41.960 But this isn't what sleep in the real world looks like.

00:03:45.020 Sleep in the real world is often noisy, interrupted, and most importantly, shared, often with a

00:03:51.580 partner.

00:03:52.760 Okay, so yeah, I think that's really interesting.

00:03:54.900 That's why this book really jumped out to me, because you're right, we've had sleep experts

00:03:58.380 on the podcast where we've talked about the downsides of having sleep deprivation, or you're

00:04:03.600 not getting enough sleep.

00:04:04.520 So people have probably read articles about it.

00:04:06.620 Like, if you're not getting enough sleep, you increase your risk for heart disease, as you

00:04:10.240 said, Alzheimer's, insulin resistance, or diabetes.

00:04:14.420 Then on the psychological level, sleep deprivation can lead to depression, anxiety, and other

00:04:19.820 mental issues.

00:04:21.560 But then, yeah, you make this really great case, and you've done research on this, is

00:04:24.580 that the lack of sleep can also affect or negatively influence our relationships.

00:04:30.480 What does the research say about that?

00:04:32.360 Yeah, that's absolutely correct.

00:04:33.480 So it's wonderful that we're all becoming more and more aware of the profound individual

00:04:38.560 consequences of sleep disturbances, ranging from, as you said, risk for heart disease,

00:04:43.660 depression, anxiety, and even Alzheimer's disease and other dementias.

00:04:48.020 But people are less aware of the fact that, and I would say it's equally important, that

00:04:53.900 there also are profound interpersonal consequences of sleep loss and disruption.

00:04:58.440 So what does the research say?

00:05:00.220 This is coming from both, you know, my research team as well as others.

00:05:04.860 The research clearly has shown that when people are poorly slept, they're more likely to engage

00:05:11.040 in the very types of behaviors that the relationship experts, including the renowned Dr. John Gottman,

00:05:17.340 have deemed to be the most toxic types of relationship behaviors, and the behaviors that are most

00:05:23.160 predictive of relationship demise.

00:05:25.360 So this includes the fact, studies have shown, that when we're sleep-deprived or we experience

00:05:30.660 sleep loss, we're more likely to display hostile behaviors, our frustration tolerance is lower,

00:05:38.200 we're more prone to conflict, and we're less able to read our partner's emotions.

00:05:42.720 Add on top of that, the fact that sleep problems can predict the onset of mental health problems

00:05:48.480 like depression and anxiety and substance use problems, and you can really have a toxic combination

00:05:54.460 for relationships.

00:05:56.640 I think that makes sense.

00:05:57.700 I mean, if you have kids, you understand whenever your toddler, your kid doesn't get enough sleep.

00:06:03.320 Like one of the first thing, you know, they're cranky.

00:06:05.380 Yes.

00:06:05.720 And we think, well, that doesn't happen to adults, but no, the same thing happens to adults as well.

00:06:10.600 Absolutely.

00:06:11.260 A child meltdown because of sleep deprivation looks very similar in some ways as an adult meltdown.

00:06:17.420 Maybe we're not having a tantrum, but we do become irritable.

00:06:22.100 We tend to snap at the other person.

00:06:24.760 And when we kind of have those negative behaviors, we're most likely to take it out on our partners.

00:06:29.880 We can kind of regulate ourselves a little bit more when it comes to our boss or coworkers,

00:06:35.320 maybe.

00:06:36.120 But that irritability and that frustration tolerance, which is lowered, can really, you know,

00:06:41.020 we're prone to snap at our partner, the person who's always supposed to be there for us.

00:06:45.400 And what causes that increase of frustration sensitivity?

00:06:48.660 Is there something going on in the brain because of lack of sleep that would result in us in

00:06:52.660 snapping and just being more irritable?

00:06:54.100 Like what's going on there?

00:06:55.700 Yes.

00:06:56.240 Well, there's really elegant research showing that, you know, sleep plays a key role in our

00:07:01.900 ability to regulate our emotions.

00:07:04.620 And it also does have an impact on the parts of the brain that are kind of the emotion centers,

00:07:10.560 like the amygdala.

00:07:11.480 So that becomes under sleep deprived conditions.

00:07:14.100 We see an amplification in amygdala responses, which is, again, that sort of hot, fiery emotion

00:07:20.720 center.

00:07:21.700 And we actually see a down regulation in the prefrontal area, which is really sort of the

00:07:26.940 reins in the brain system trying to kind of regulate those hot, fiery emotions.

00:07:32.800 So you have an, you know, kind of, you know, up regulation of, of the fieriness and sort

00:07:38.340 of the tendency to snap or become angry and less control of our emotions because the down

00:07:44.060 regulation in the prefrontal area.

00:07:46.460 So not only, that's another thing you highlight too in the book is not only does sleep deprivation

00:07:49.960 cause us to just be more irritable.

00:07:51.340 So when our spouse or partner asks us to do something in the morning, we just like, ah, 0.96

00:07:56.000 you know, just bite their head off.

00:07:57.360 But it also, it can increase feelings of loneliness too, for some weird reason.

00:08:01.420 Like you actually feel lonelier even when you're sleep deprived, even though you might, you know,

00:08:05.500 objectively not be lonely.

00:08:06.640 You have your spouse, kids, friends.

00:08:08.980 Yeah.

00:08:09.340 Yeah.

00:08:09.560 That feeling of, I mean, we can feel lonely even, you know, with a partner and that's sometimes

00:08:16.860 the loneliest place to be.

00:08:19.040 And elegant work at Berkeley has shown that under sleep deprived conditions, people tend

00:08:25.480 to subjectively feel more lonely regardless of what the actual social context is.

00:08:30.760 And what's really cool about that research is that they also showed that loneliness is kind

00:08:35.500 of contagious, that sleep deprived people were rated by external reviewers as being more

00:08:42.500 lonely, but the reviewers themselves after, you know, sort of looking at these sleep deprived

00:08:48.140 people also felt more lonely themselves.

00:08:50.540 So there can be this sort of loneliness contagion.

00:08:53.960 And you could imagine in a couple how that kind of, if both partner is feeling kind of lonely

00:08:59.460 and disconnected over time, that sense of disconnection is a really powerful predictor of relationship

00:09:06.740 demise.

00:09:07.460 It's when couples start sort of moving apart and they're not quite sure why their relationship

00:09:14.180 is no longer satisfying, that it's not feeding them anymore, but they're just sort of living

00:09:18.140 in separate worlds.

00:09:19.300 And that can be very devastating.

00:09:21.960 Okay.

00:09:22.100 So in addition to our sleep deprivation affecting negatively affecting relationships because we

00:09:27.920 get snappier, we feel lonely, we feel disconnected from our spouse or partner.

00:09:32.060 You also, there's research that says the quality of a relationship can also positively or negatively

00:09:38.720 affect our sleep.

00:09:39.720 So what's going on there?

00:09:41.140 Yeah, that's absolutely correct.

00:09:42.540 So on the negative side, I think this is kind of intuitively obvious to most people.

00:09:47.120 If you're going through a rough spell in your relationship or you have a, you know, conflict with your

00:09:51.480 partner during the day, that can really disrupt your sleep that night because relationship

00:09:57.000 conflict or, you know, relationship strain is a major source of stress for most people.

00:10:02.560 But here's what's interesting.

00:10:04.140 My colleague, Dr.

00:10:05.140 Brant Hassler, who's from the University of Pittsburgh and I, we did a study a number of

00:10:09.100 years ago in which we measured couples' daily relationship behaviors and nightly sleep quality

00:10:14.880 over a period of about 10 days.

00:10:17.700 What we found was that for men on nights when they slept worse, the next day they reported

00:10:23.780 poor relationship quality.

00:10:26.280 But for women, we found evidence for the reverse direction, okay? 0.95

00:10:30.700 So for women, we found that on days when she reported feeling less satisfied in her relationship,

00:10:37.480 that night, both her sleep and her partner's sleep suffered.

00:10:43.140 So in other words, if she's not happy, no one's sleeping.

00:10:47.000 But what this research shows us with these bidirectional associations, some of which may be

00:10:51.960 gender dependent, you can easily see if sleep is affecting relationships and relationships can

00:10:58.080 in turn affect sleep, you can have this vicious cycle emerge.

00:11:02.540 But I want to mention, it's not all negative.

00:11:05.140 There can also be virtuous cycles if we turn this around, wherein if we prioritize sleep

00:11:11.020 and relationship health, we can have healthy sleep begetting healthier relationship behaviors

00:11:16.340 and so on.

00:11:17.840 Well, I'm curious.

00:11:18.280 That's interesting.

00:11:18.720 Yeah, I can totally see the vicious cycle happen.

00:11:20.780 You get a bad night's sleep, that affects the relationship, the relationship's bad the

00:11:24.240 next day, and that just makes the next night's sleep bad.

00:11:27.840 Or it could be the opposite way, bad, you know, a fight with your spouse, then you don't sleep

00:11:33.000 well, and then it just perpetuates.

00:11:34.900 I'm curious, in your research, and also you're also a therapist, you work with people and couples

00:11:39.260 with their sleep problems.

00:11:41.280 Have you, is it usually like, what precipitates, what starts the vicious cycle?

00:11:44.460 Is it like usually a lack of sleep or is it the bad relationship?

00:11:48.740 Like, what's the kickstarter?

00:11:51.600 Yeah.

00:11:52.200 Well, I mean, I think, obviously, there's a bit of a selection bias because I'm known as

00:11:57.600 a specialist.

00:11:58.420 I am a general clinical psychologist, but people generally come to me for sleep issues.

00:12:03.060 So I hear a lot about the, you know, the sleep disturbances effects on the relationships.

00:12:09.460 However, even in my, you know, clinical sleep context, relationship issues are often a precipitant

00:12:17.200 of sleep problems for, you know, not all of my patients, but many.

00:12:20.720 So, so again, even in the kind of etiology of sleep problems that, you know, people will

00:12:26.140 come to me to treat relationship, you know, stress in the relationship or divorce or separation,

00:12:32.460 those are often identified by the patient as, you know, kind of when their sleep problems

00:12:38.240 began.

00:12:39.280 But I also see the other side of that because I'm treating the sleep problems that my patients

00:12:44.640 will acknowledge that, and particularly if their partners come in, they will also acknowledge

00:12:49.200 that the sleep problem in one partner is really having an impact on the couple as a

00:12:54.180 unit.

00:12:55.200 Well, let's talk about that.

00:12:55.880 What are the problems couples might experience when it comes to sleeping?

00:12:59.980 What issues do you often see with partnered sleeping?

00:13:03.140 Because I think that's an important thing because I think people will typically, I got

00:13:05.000 a sleeping problem.

00:13:06.540 They usually, as you said earlier, it's usually, well, what's my problem?

00:13:09.840 They never think, well, how's my, how's my, my wife or my husband contributing to this?

00:13:15.500 Absolutely.

00:13:16.160 And, you know, here's a big thrust of the book too, is that we need to kind of get over

00:13:20.820 this idea that, you know, a sleeping problem is my problem or your problem.

00:13:24.620 Because if a couple shares a bed, the bottom line is that problem is a we problem.

00:13:29.680 It is an interdependent phenomenon because sleep is shared for many adults.

00:13:34.160 So we really have to start thinking about it that way and problem solving at the level

00:13:38.500 of the couple.

00:13:39.740 But in answer to your question, in terms of the types of problems that are most commonly

00:13:43.960 faced by couples when sleeping together, and here I mean in the literal sense, not the

00:13:48.880 biblical sense, you know, the big one, of course, that we hear about most frequently

00:13:52.360 is, you know, that one partner snores and that keeps the other partner up.

00:13:56.680 But of course, there are other sleep disorders as well, like insomnia or restless leg syndrome,

00:14:01.660 which can have effects both on the individual as well as the partner.

00:14:06.400 Couples may have differences in sleep-wake schedules or patterns.

00:14:10.140 One's an early bird or a morning lark and the other's an evening owl, or they may have

00:14:15.080 different work schedules.

00:14:16.300 As any parent will tell you, the presence of children can wreak some havoc on couples'

00:14:21.820 sleep.

00:14:22.800 And then, of course, there are just differences, kind of more mundane, run-of-the-mill differences

00:14:26.940 in sleep preferences or behaviors.

00:14:30.380 Maybe you have differences in preferences for firmness or softness of the mattress, or one

00:14:35.600 of you likes it hot in the bedroom, the other likes it cold.

00:14:38.740 Or maybe one partner likes to, you know, bring their phone into bed and scrolls through their

00:14:43.700 phone obsessively before falling asleep, whereas the other partner is really trying to practice

00:14:48.400 healthy sleep hygiene.

00:14:50.520 So these kind of behaviors are incompatible.

00:14:54.860 And again, the other big point I make in the book is that just because you love a person,

00:15:00.280 you know, and you're committed to them, doesn't mean you're necessarily going to automatically

00:15:04.220 be perfectly compatible when it comes to that roughly third of our lives that we spend together

00:15:11.100 in bed.

00:15:11.740 Yeah, it's funny, you know, there's a lot of relationship advice, you know, before you

00:15:15.280 get married, you're supposed to talk about, okay, what are your, what's your approach to

00:15:19.700 finances?

00:15:20.640 Yeah.

00:15:20.980 You talk about that, but never crossed my mind to ask my wife, like, so are you a morning

00:15:26.360 bird or a night owl?

00:15:27.360 Like, how, how's that?

00:15:28.840 Like, that never crossed my mind at all.

00:15:30.940 Right.

00:15:31.320 I mean, and these are really important things.

00:15:33.240 It's a third of our lives.

00:15:34.600 And, you know, it's one of the few things that, you know, again, for most couples, it's

00:15:38.700 actually that entire time period is generally shared together.

00:15:42.400 And we just assume that, you know, it's going to work or we default to these ideas of how

00:15:47.980 couples should be and that it's just naturally going to work. 0.93

00:15:50.840 And, you know, it doesn't always sort of work that seamlessly.

00:15:55.120 And without having any dialogue about, you know, how do we work through this?

00:15:59.980 I think that that can create tension that's unnecessary in couples.

00:16:03.380 So that's, again, kind of the purpose of the book is to like start the dialogue that, you

00:16:08.080 know, sleeping together isn't always easy or automatically compatible, but there are

00:16:12.960 strategies to work together, you know, to make it work.

00:16:16.000 So besides differences in circadian rhythms, can anyone, you know, someone can be a night

00:16:20.060 owl, someone can be an early bird.

00:16:21.440 Are there differences between how men and women sleep that can cause problems, like from

00:16:25.640 like on a physiological basis?

00:16:27.820 Yes, there are a number of biological sex differences in sleep that, of course, can cause

00:16:33.320 particular issues among heterosexual couples.

00:16:36.820 Though generally speaking, I want to mention that the challenges that couples face when it comes

00:16:41.200 to sharing a bed apply to all types of couples, straight, gay, young, old, newlyweds,

00:16:45.700 or long-term couples.

00:16:47.520 But as far as sex differences go, the short answer is this.

00:16:51.740 Women tend to suffer more from sleep disturbances and sleep disorders characterized by poor sleep 0.55

00:16:58.000 quality or kind of lighter, non-refreshing sleep.

00:17:01.660 Like they're more, they're about twice as likely to have insomnia as compared to men.

00:17:05.740 They're also more likely to have restless leg syndrome as compared to men.

00:17:10.400 On the other hand, men are more likely to be loud sleepers.

00:17:14.180 So statistically speaking, at least, men are more likely to be snorers or to have the clinical

00:17:20.380 disorder known as obstructive sleep apnea that's characterized by loud snoring or gasping

00:17:26.000 for air at night, which can be, of course, very disruptive.

00:17:30.000 So you can kind of imagine how among heterosexual couples, the pairing of a sex that tends to be

00:17:36.840 lighter sleep, more prone to sleep disturbances with a loud sleeper could create some conflict

00:17:43.400 in the bedroom.

00:17:44.780 So besides issues between sleep differences between the couple, you also talk about adding

00:17:50.180 kids to the picture can also create problems or exacerbate sleeping problems.

00:17:55.480 What does that look like?

00:17:57.060 Well, you probably don't need me to tell you this.

00:17:59.100 You just need to ask any parent of a child that the presence of a child has profound impacts

00:18:05.240 on your sleep individually and as a couple.

00:18:07.860 And here's what's actually very interesting.

00:18:10.600 Research shows that after the birth of your first child, couples experience a precipitous

00:18:16.260 decline in their relationship quality.

00:18:18.920 And also, as every parent will tell you, having an infant in the house is a surefire way to

00:18:24.360 become sleep deprived.

00:18:26.360 Given what we know about the consequences of sleep loss on our moods, our behavior, and our

00:18:31.480 ability to communicate effectively, it stands to reason that sleep loss can be a major driver

00:18:37.380 of relationship conflict and that sort of deterioration, at least temporarily, in relationship

00:18:44.500 satisfaction when couples become parents.

00:18:47.040 And again, this is also why it's so important for couples to start acknowledging the importance

00:18:52.840 of sleep in the life course of their relationship.

00:18:56.280 Because, you know, thankfully, you know, the sleep problems and sleep deprivation of having

00:19:01.200 a newborn, it doesn't last forever for all your newborn parents out there, but other sleep

00:19:06.440 problems do emerge and, you know, over the course of the development of your children.

00:19:10.680 So I can tell you as a parent of two teenagers, definitely not the same level of sleep deprivation

00:19:16.120 that I had when they were infants, but there is sleep disruption when you worry about when

00:19:20.900 they'll come home at night, especially with young drivers.

00:19:23.840 So having children certainly is just another factor that comes to play that can kind of

00:19:30.360 shake up the boat when it comes to couples' sleep and acknowledging that and recognizing

00:19:35.380 that some of this is very, you know, time-limited and related to a very normal, typical part of

00:19:42.240 the life course of a couple.

00:19:43.680 You know, having a newborn, most people will experience some level of sleep deprivation.

00:19:48.780 If you can label it as that, and if you can maybe give your partner some distance,

00:19:53.000 that this is not about you, you know, being just a fatally flawed person or a bad person

00:19:58.380 or irritable person.

00:19:59.460 It's really just that you're sleep deprived.

00:20:01.580 That can give some healthy distance and help couples kind of manage these rough spots better. 0.95

00:20:07.000 Yeah.

00:20:07.140 And you talk about too, when you bring a kid into the family, particularly a newborn,

00:20:11.680 like have conversations around this.

00:20:13.600 Like, what are we going to do to make sure we both get some good sleep?

00:20:16.940 I think it's been a while since I've been a newborn parent, but I remember, so my wife's

00:20:21.520 a night owl.

00:20:22.500 I tend to be an early bird.

00:20:24.680 And I think when we first had our kids, it was like our sort of arrangement was, because

00:20:28.880 you know, babies, you know, newborns, they got to eat all the time.

00:20:31.640 Yeah.

00:20:31.760 Yes, they got to eat in the middle of the night.

00:20:33.180 So it was like, if it's before two o'clock in the morning, like wife would take care of 0.67

00:20:37.920 that.

00:20:38.220 Kate would take care of that. 0.61

00:20:39.280 If it was after two or three, then I would get up and take care of it.

00:20:43.520 Now, kind of, I guess that worked for us.

00:20:45.220 Yeah, well, I mean, I think couples who are able to recognize their sleep-wake differences

00:20:50.500 and then use them in their favor, that's a really healthy approach.

00:20:55.120 And generally speaking, yes, and the key for couples struggling with the, you know, sort

00:20:59.940 of temporary nature of, you know, sleep deprivation caused by the birth of a child, it may feel

00:21:05.600 like it's lasting forever, but it really doesn't.

00:21:07.920 Finding ways to, you know, help your partner out so that you can maybe, you know, swap nights

00:21:13.060 when one partner is on for the nighttime caregiving duties where the other partner might get that

00:21:18.460 blessed, you know, four to six hour chunk of sleep, which makes a world of difference

00:21:23.000 in those first few months of having a baby.

00:21:25.340 But again, it's about sort of acknowledging this exists and it's going to have an impact

00:21:30.140 on us.

00:21:30.620 So how do we work together to avoid the impact harming us, you know, more long-term in our

00:21:38.340 relationship?

00:21:39.200 Really supporting both and recognizing that, you know, feeling slangry, the term for, you

00:21:44.840 know, sleepy plus angry, kind of like hangry, you know, that it's not about your partner

00:21:49.020 being a bad person.

00:21:49.900 It's about the situation, which is causing sleep deprivation.

00:21:54.380 And we know that sleep deprivation can have really profound impacts on your mood and your

00:22:00.160 behavior.

00:22:01.060 Now I can attest to the fact, even after the newborn phase, your kids are still going to

00:22:05.320 mess up your sleep.

00:22:06.240 Like this week alone, I've had, we've had two separate kids come into our bedroom at like

00:22:10.860 one o'clock in the morning.

00:22:11.940 They had like a leg pain, like I got growing pains.

00:22:14.660 And so we had to like wake up, Tylenol, you know, it's just still happens.

00:22:19.160 Still happens.

00:22:19.860 They're 10 and eight.

00:22:20.880 It still happens.

00:22:22.000 Now the good news is, you know, that, you know, temporary sleep disruptions are really

00:22:27.180 not going to kill you.

00:22:28.300 They happen.

00:22:29.120 It's a part, a normal part of life.

00:22:30.900 What we want to avoid is, you know, really chronic disrupted sleep or insufficient sleep

00:22:37.360 over a long period of time.

00:22:38.720 That's what the research shows is really most strongly associated with negative health outcomes.

00:22:43.280 So doing whatever you can to protect your sleep when you can, and, you know, working

00:22:47.980 with your partner so that, you know, if you're going through a period, a longer period of

00:22:52.620 time, for instance, where a child is waking up a lot in the middle of the night, how do

00:22:56.160 you find ways to maybe sort of reciprocate with your partner to make sure that each of

00:23:01.720 you gets some decent sleep, at least occasionally.

00:23:05.060 So you don't have that buildup of chronic sleep deprivation, which can have the most

00:23:09.960 negative consequences.

00:23:11.740 We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:23:15.980 And now back to the show.

00:23:17.700 Another thing you talk about in the book that, you know, some families do, they do shared

00:23:21.540 sleeping.

00:23:21.900 So it's like the baby sleeps with the parents and then they just continues like in the

00:23:25.720 toddlerhood and some, for some families that works out great.

00:23:28.580 It's fantastic.

00:23:29.520 But then you've also, there's couples you highlighted where that was like, that was 0.95

00:23:32.740 the sleep issue.

00:23:33.420 That was kind of a point of contention in the relationship.

00:23:36.500 Right.

00:23:36.680 So the issue of, you know, family co-sleeping, you know, it's a hotly debated and controversial

00:23:41.200 topic.

00:23:42.040 And from a medical standpoint, what I always say is, you know, co-sleeping, if it's done

00:23:47.280 safely, you know, is really a family level decision.

00:23:51.480 And again, when I say safely, that means that there's appropriate bedding for the, for the

00:23:55.100 infant or the child and that, you know, that there's not substance use involved on the part

00:23:59.760 of either of the parents.

00:24:00.980 But here's the thing, what is missing for so many families is the actual act of making

00:24:07.680 it a family decision for some couples and families.

00:24:11.660 If it is an active choice to co-sleep, it can be, you know, the right choice for that family.

00:24:18.280 What happens for many families is that it's not an active decision or a proactive and mutual

00:24:24.440 decision, rather maybe the infant or child starts, you know, sleeping in the bed because

00:24:29.380 they're having, you know, issues sleeping in their own bed, but the couple never arrived

00:24:34.620 at this decision together.

00:24:36.360 So I've seen clients who come to me with issues with their child sleeping, but it's really

00:24:40.920 about issues with the family sleep.

00:24:43.440 And I'll ask one partner, so what's your goal here?

00:24:45.840 And one partner may say, I just want my child to sleep through the night.

00:24:49.960 The other partner will say, I just want my child to sleep through the night in their

00:24:54.240 own bed.

00:24:55.580 Now, those extra words are very different.

00:24:59.060 And before we can problem solve and do anything really effective to support the child's sleep,

00:25:04.520 I have to help the couple come together on, well, what's your couple level goal?

00:25:08.920 Because what's most important for children when it comes to their sleep is following a consistent

00:25:14.300 pattern of behavior and sticking with it.

00:25:16.860 So if there's, you know, those few little word differences in those two statements makes

00:25:22.880 a big difference because if one partner just wants that child to sleep wherever it is, and

00:25:27.320 the other partner wants that child to sleep in their own bed, well, that can lead to a

00:25:31.900 great deal of inconsistency in the kind of routines and behaviors the family will practice

00:25:36.840 throughout the night.

00:25:38.000 All right.

00:25:38.060 So be intentional about shared sleeping, co-sleeping.

00:25:40.860 Don't just slide into it.

00:25:42.200 Like actually be intentional about it.

00:25:44.720 Exactly.

00:25:45.460 Intentionality is key.

00:25:46.860 And, you know, having an open dialogue with your partner about it, about what are our goals

00:25:51.680 and, you know, what are the pros and cons of each?

00:25:55.400 You know, what will this mean both currently and, you know, a few years from now?

00:26:00.580 And, you know, how is this going to work in the context of our relationship?

00:26:03.720 And, you know, couples may have sort of best laid plans to try one approach and they may

00:26:09.000 find that it's not working for them.

00:26:10.860 But again, that's okay to sort of switch directions, but do it in an intentional and proactive way

00:26:16.460 and stick with it because consistency is what's really key for children.

00:26:22.200 All right.

00:26:22.320 So let's put aside the issue of family sleeping and there's kids.

00:26:25.740 We're just talking about the couple here.

00:26:27.300 Let's talk about the solutions for sleeping mismatch problems between a couple.

00:26:31.900 And the most significant one, I've been reading more and more about this, is for the couple

00:26:38.140 to decide to sleep in separate beds.

00:26:41.240 Now, a lot of people don't want to talk about this idea because sleeping in separate beds

00:26:45.460 seems pretty taboo.

00:26:47.000 I mean, the feeling is like, oh, if a couple is sleeping in separate beds, that means the

00:26:50.120 relationship is on the rocks.

00:26:51.860 What's interesting, in the book, you explore the cultural history of partnered sleeping and

00:26:55.920 you highlight the fact that throughout history, there's been sort of this swing back and

00:26:59.700 forth between the acceptance of separate sleeping arrangements and then sleeping together.

00:27:04.660 Key walks through that history so we can get an idea of how we as a culture thought about

00:27:08.300 sleeping arrangements between couples.

00:27:10.540 Yes.

00:27:10.680 This is really a fascinating part of doing the research for my book because I'm not myself

00:27:15.600 a historian, but I had the opportunity to read historical texts and interview some prominent

00:27:20.280 historians, including Dr. Roger Eckert.

00:27:22.840 She wrote the book, At Days Closed, which gives a historical perspective on how sleep has

00:27:27.920 changed throughout history.

00:27:29.440 It's a brilliant book.

00:27:31.060 So kind of here's what history and historians tell us.

00:27:34.660 I mean, throughout Western history, sleep has been a social behavior.

00:27:39.920 And in fact, in medieval times, sleep wasn't just, you know, it wasn't just a marital bed.

00:27:44.440 It was really the shared communal bed with, you know, family members, even, you know, could

00:27:49.920 be a passerby or servants in the house.

00:27:54.140 And sort of where you got to sleep in the bed sort of was a sign of sort of where you

00:27:58.500 fit in the sort of family structure.

00:28:01.200 But then you can fast forward to the Victorian era.

00:28:04.680 And it was at that time de rigueur to be able to sleep in separate bedrooms.

00:28:09.780 It was a sign of prestige in part because only the well-to-do couples could afford to sleep

00:28:15.600 apart.

00:28:15.920 Again, in earlier history, the bed in the bedroom was kind of one of the most prized possessions

00:28:21.060 and the most expensive possessions of a family.

00:28:24.100 So, you know, people could not afford to have separate bedrooms.

00:28:27.600 So in the Victorian era, you know, being able to sleep apart was a sign of your wealth.

00:28:33.980 And there were also some half-baked science ideas at the time that suggested that disease

00:28:39.200 was spread through foul smells.

00:28:41.420 So you can take that a step further and make the point that, and doctors of the time did

00:28:46.680 that, you know, your partner's morning breath could literally make you sick.

00:28:51.100 So therefore, if you can afford it, best to sleep apart.

00:28:53.880 So it was also a sign of hygiene.

00:28:55.660 Then we jumped to sort of the 1950s and we see, you know, popular television shows like

00:29:01.260 I Love Lucy still perpetuating the image of a married couple, both on and off screen,

00:29:08.240 who are sleeping apart.

00:29:10.060 And there were even Hollywood regulations for what could be, you know, acceptable on screen

00:29:15.520 that if a man and a woman were in the same bed, one person had to have a leg on the floor

00:29:22.360 as if this was some sort of like chastity belt, keeping them from, you know, any hanky-panky,

00:29:28.000 I guess.

00:29:28.660 And then you kind of shift forward again to the sexual revolution of the 1960s.

00:29:35.300 And we see the pendulum shift in the opposite direction.

00:29:38.560 This is where we start to see this taboo attached to sleeping apart as if sleeping apart is

00:29:45.720 necessarily a sign of this, you know, loveless or sexless union.

00:29:50.000 It was really this reaction to kind of the image of this kind of prudish, you know, behavior

00:29:55.600 of the 1950s and before.

00:29:57.680 And to some extent, we still see that stigma attached to sleeping apart.

00:30:03.140 Although there's some evidence that as more and more couples come out and admit that they're

00:30:08.200 perfectly happy, but, you know, it's working for them and their relationships for many different

00:30:12.640 reasons to sleep apart.

00:30:14.280 It may be that that stigma will start to wane.

00:30:18.180 Again, so the fear is people like, well, I don't want to do that because that just like,

00:30:22.000 it's like a sleep divorce.

00:30:22.960 It's like, it's a sign that our relationship is on the rocks.

00:30:25.240 But there's also research saying that people who, couples who decide to sleep apart, they

00:30:32.520 actually don't have any relationship problems.

00:30:34.300 In fact, it could possibly help the relationship.

00:30:37.640 What's going on there?

00:30:39.160 Right.

00:30:39.720 So I would actually say that the research specifically on, you know, relationship quality when couples

00:30:44.420 sleep together or apart is pretty limited.

00:30:46.300 Though I can absolutely say anecdotally, I've met with many couples who say that sleeping

00:30:51.800 apart has, you know, been the lifesaver for the relationship and they're so much happier.

00:30:56.820 And again, what I say to all couples is that there is not a one size fits all sleeping strategy

00:31:02.720 that's going to work for all couples.

00:31:05.600 What we do know quite clearly from the science is that when you're well slept, you're able to

00:31:12.220 be a better partner.

00:31:13.860 So, you know, regardless of your sleeping arrangements, what couples need to do is prioritize both

00:31:20.120 of their sleep because that will make both of them better partners.

00:31:24.540 And for couples who do decide that sleeping apart makes sense in their relationship, I

00:31:31.060 also recommend that it's really important to still kind of savor the cuddle or the time

00:31:37.400 that they spend together in bed before falling asleep, because that's often the most important

00:31:43.480 time for sustaining and maintaining a healthy relationship.

00:31:47.580 So I still believe that the marital or otherwise shared bed really still holds an important place

00:31:55.000 in the life of a couple.

00:31:57.140 And we need to preserve that and avoid the tendency to let, you know, external factors and distractors

00:32:03.160 like our phones interfere with that really sacred time where couples just get to be together,

00:32:09.140 hopefully for some quality time, whether it be for intimacy or just to talk or cuddle or

00:32:15.000 digest the stresses of the day together.

00:32:18.180 That's a really important time for a couple.

00:32:20.240 And it often does occur before couples fall asleep.

00:32:24.240 So even if you go your separate ways at bedtime, that's really important to preserve.

00:32:29.240 For other couples who choose to sleep apart, you know, there can be some relationship benefits

00:32:33.940 because they have this sort of mini reunion in the morning when they come back together

00:32:38.760 after having a good night of sleep or for couples who have, you know, temporary sleep

00:32:43.820 separations.

00:32:44.800 They've reported that, you know, they find that it kind of spices up the relationship.

00:32:49.080 Again, I want to make it quite clear that I say throughout my book and whenever I speak

00:32:54.740 on this topic, what I want to avoid is being prescriptive about this in any way to all couples.

00:33:01.280 It is not for me or anyone else to tell you how you should be sleeping with or without

00:33:06.840 your partner.

00:33:07.820 It's really about recognizing how important sleep is in the life of your relationship and

00:33:13.020 then finding the strategy that's going to work best for you.

00:33:16.180 Well, so one option that some couples do is they'll get two full-size beds and they'll

00:33:21.460 put them together to form a single bed.

00:33:23.840 So they're still together, but they're also separate.

00:33:27.340 There's a name for it.

00:33:28.140 It's called the Scandinavian method.

00:33:29.640 That could be really helpful if you've got one person who's a tosser and turner or who's

00:33:33.580 got restless legs.

00:33:34.520 That kind of thrashing, again, it has both individual effects and couple-level effects.

00:33:40.260 So having even a king-size bed, even though you can kind of be at your separate corners,

00:33:44.660 if somebody is thrashing enough or enough of a sheet stealer, they can still grab all your

00:33:49.040 sheets.

00:33:49.980 So the Scandinavian method, it typically involves putting two twin beds together because two

00:33:54.780 twin beds equal a king.

00:33:56.420 And it allows both partners to have their individualized preferences for the mattress,

00:34:02.260 their bedding.

00:34:04.080 And then you can actually, for some couples, they prefer to have sort of a communal comforter

00:34:09.740 or overlay that's a king-size.

00:34:12.040 So for those who are still a little concerned about any sort of stigma attached to separate

00:34:16.860 beds, this makes it look like one king-size bed, but the actual beds themselves and the bedding

00:34:23.160 are individualized.

00:34:24.440 And that can work very well for many couples.

00:34:26.880 Okay.

00:34:26.980 So the Scandinavian method is a good option for sheet stealers, for restless sleepers, or 0.98

00:34:32.080 couples where one person, they want a warmer mattress and warmer sheets. 0.72

00:34:36.220 The other person wants a cooler mattress and cooler sheets. 0.98

00:34:39.100 Or maybe you and your spouse get up and go to bed at different times and you want to disturb

00:34:44.500 each other less.

00:34:45.080 So that's a good option.

00:34:45.820 And you found that with couples that do this, the Scandinavian method, they've got separate

00:34:52.080 beds technically, but maintaining intimacy, this isn't an issue.

00:34:57.300 It's like, you know, we have these really entrenched beliefs that, you know, the literal meaning

00:35:03.860 of sleeping together and the biblical meaning of sleeping together, i.e. sex, have to be one

00:35:08.660 in the same.

00:35:09.180 And it's absolutely not true.

00:35:11.800 You know, there are many ways for couples to find intimacy and, you know, it doesn't

00:35:16.940 only have to happen right before bedtime or in the middle of the night.

00:35:20.840 You know, couples should really be open to, you know, being intimate and having sexual

00:35:25.640 activity when it works for both of them.

00:35:27.560 So if, you know, one of you is an extreme night owl and one is an extreme, you know, morning

00:35:33.260 person, you know, you need to find ways to, you know, problem solve and find times that

00:35:38.340 you're both going to even be interested and awake for sex because being exhausted is a

00:35:43.460 primary reason why couples don't have sex. 1.00

00:35:46.440 So again, prioritizing sleep is good for the relationship in all sorts of ways.

00:35:52.640 So sleeping separate beds or the Scandinavian method where you get separate beds, put them

00:35:56.880 together is one option.

00:35:58.180 Another option you're hearing a lot more about is couples just sleeping.

00:36:01.800 They're doing like Downton Abbey style.

00:36:03.700 Like they're going like Lord Grantham's got his bedroom and then Lady Grantham's got hers

00:36:07.920 a bedroom.

00:36:08.440 Like what would cause, I mean, in your experience, what would, what causes a couple to make that

00:36:13.280 decision?

00:36:14.680 Sure.

00:36:15.120 Well, I mean, first of all, it depends in part on sort of your resources and, you know,

00:36:20.640 availability.

00:36:21.340 Not everyone's got a spare bedroom.

00:36:22.540 Right.

00:36:22.740 Yeah.

00:36:23.100 Not everyone lives in Downton Abbey.

00:36:25.240 Correct.

00:36:25.840 So in that way, we're, you know, it's sort of similar to, you know, that time where, you

00:36:29.780 know, separate bedrooms were in fact, a sign of prestige.

00:36:32.160 And, you know, if you live in a New York apartment and you're well, if you're lucky enough to

00:36:35.900 have an extra bedroom, we'll then have at it.

00:36:38.520 But, you know, so first of all, it can be a resource issue, resource issue.

00:36:42.600 But for those who, you know, have the space available for a separate bedroom, generally

00:36:47.340 speaking, you know, there's some issues that can, you know, only be solved or best be solved

00:36:53.800 by, you know, separate bedrooms.

00:36:55.220 So the Scandinavian method is not going to help the partner who, you know, has a partner 0.87

00:37:00.260 who, you know, snores like a foghorn every night.

00:37:03.080 Right.

00:37:03.620 You're going to need to be in separate rooms and ideally down the hall from each other.

00:37:07.860 If the noise disruption is the primary cause of the sleep disruption.

00:37:12.940 But I also should mention if, you know, snoring and if it's really loud snoring is the primary

00:37:17.820 cause of sleep disruption before you jump to separate bedrooms as being the only solution.

00:37:23.520 It's also really important to encourage a partner to, you know, seek medical attention

00:37:28.300 and determine, is this a sleep disorder that could be treated and that failure to treat

00:37:33.620 can have significant health consequences.

00:37:36.800 Okay.

00:37:36.940 So the takeaway there, if you decide to go, you know, if the sleep incongruencies are so

00:37:40.540 bad, you decide to go separate.

00:37:41.660 Like the takeaway there is make sure, again, it's intentional.

00:37:44.440 You're not just sliding into it.

00:37:46.100 You're having a conversation about it.

00:37:47.500 And also make sure you maintain a figurative marital bed at some point in the sleep process

00:37:55.120 so that you can maintain just that, just that connection with your.

00:37:59.360 That connection.

00:38:00.060 Right.

00:38:00.460 Right.

00:38:00.860 And, and again, that intentionality is so key and it's something that we just, we don't

00:38:06.340 have practice in doing because there's not a great amount of dialogue around, you know,

00:38:11.160 kind of what's working, what's not working in the bedroom when it comes to sleep.

00:38:15.080 And so what too often happens and where issues can, you know, arise for couples is that, you

00:38:22.540 know, there's never a discussion about sleeping apart.

00:38:25.280 It's just that one partner ends up stomping out of the bedroom onto the couch or kicking

00:38:29.480 her partner out of the bedroom onto the couch.

00:38:32.220 And that's where sort of the resentment can build because there's not a discussion about

00:38:37.200 that.

00:38:37.900 This isn't working because neither of us is sleeping well.

00:38:40.460 It becomes really an act of anger and resentment.

00:38:43.220 And then the other partner can end up feeling abandoned.

00:38:46.320 All right.

00:38:46.500 Don't do that.

00:38:47.080 Don't slide into a separate sleeping arrangement.

00:38:49.840 So what if, okay, let's say there's problems like, you know, one, one person in the relationship,

00:38:54.380 they're a morning bird, the other one's a night owl, but they don't want to get separate

00:38:58.640 beds.

00:38:58.920 It's just something they enjoy.

00:39:00.120 They want to be together.

00:39:01.440 Any advice there?

00:39:02.420 Like what works, like what can they do to sort of sync up a bit so they don't disrupt each

00:39:07.580 other's sleep?

00:39:08.920 Absolutely.

00:39:09.320 So what you're talking about is kind of mismatched pairs.

00:39:12.100 One's, one's a early bird, one's an evening owl.

00:39:14.980 And I see this quite frequently.

00:39:16.580 And I've talked to a number of couples who struggle with this.

00:39:19.200 And here's one scenario that often happens.

00:39:21.500 It's often that the night owl tries to go to bed at the same time as the early bird,

00:39:28.060 you know, say a reasonable time of 10 PM.

00:39:31.500 Well, the truth of the matter is a bedtime of 10 PM is really not reasonable for a night

00:39:36.520 owl.

00:39:36.860 So what happens the night owl ends up, you know, lying in bed, you know, feeling forced

00:39:42.140 to, you know, go to sleep at a time that their biological clock tells them they're not ready.

00:39:46.680 So what do they do?

00:39:47.460 They lie there in bed kind of in agony, you know, staring at the ceiling, wishing they

00:39:51.680 could fall asleep.

00:39:52.240 And they simply can't because their biology is working against them in that kind of situation.

00:39:57.520 Resentment can start to build.

00:39:58.820 And then if the, you know, morning is based on the, you know, early bird schedule, then

00:40:03.840 the night owl has to wake up probably long before their biological clock tells them they're

00:40:09.020 ready.

00:40:09.240 And this can result in sleep deprivation for the night owl.

00:40:13.640 So it's really important for couples to, first of all, recognize that these differences

00:40:18.900 in sleep, wake preferences, particularly at these extremes, these are genetically derived

00:40:24.400 largely.

00:40:24.880 So you can't just change your sleep, wake preference because, you know, you love someone and you

00:40:29.900 want to be compatible with them.

00:40:31.160 If you do so, that's going to, you know, it's working against your biology and that generally

00:40:36.200 doesn't work.

00:40:37.060 And again, you might start to build resentment towards your partner.

00:40:39.700 So what I recommend to couples who are on these mismatched schedules is to find ways to connect

00:40:47.080 and have that quality time together.

00:40:48.740 Again, preserve the cuddle, but it doesn't mean that you, it doesn't mean that you have

00:40:52.560 to go to sleep or wake up at the exact same time.

00:40:56.560 So in the case I gave, you know, the couple could spend some time in bed before the early

00:41:02.280 bird falls asleep, let's say at 10 PM.

00:41:04.700 And when it's bedtime for the early bird, the night owl could quietly leave the room.

00:41:09.700 Go have some me time, which can be really good for the individual and then return to

00:41:15.300 bed at their more natural later bedtime.

00:41:18.380 And in the morning, the early bird will wake up at their early time, get out of bed quietly

00:41:23.340 so as not to disturb the night owl and start their day and maybe return later in the morning

00:41:27.860 to wake up their partner, ideally with coffee in hand.

00:41:31.640 So these are the kinds of problem solving strategies that couples absolutely can do.

00:41:38.020 And it will support their sleep in both of them and also their relationship quality.

00:41:43.180 What's really interesting, there is research on the impact of being mismatched in terms

00:41:49.920 of sleep-wake preferences on couples' relationship quality.

00:41:54.380 And, you know, the news is not great.

00:41:55.940 It actually does show that, you know, couples who are mismatched have higher levels of relationship

00:42:00.920 conflict, poor relationship satisfaction, and lesser sexual activity.

00:42:05.400 But the caveat of that research, don't go run off in despair, please, is that couples who

00:42:11.740 are mismatched but have good problem-solving skills do not show these relationship impairments.

00:42:17.300 So it's really about the ability to problem-solve and, as you mentioned, being intentional about

00:42:23.740 your behaviors and finding solutions that are going to work for you as a couple.

00:42:28.280 So you don't have to fall asleep at the same time to still have some time to share some

00:42:35.040 time in bed before either of you falls asleep or maybe it's in the morning.

00:42:38.860 There's all sorts of strategies that can work, but it's about being intentional and proactive

00:42:43.440 about it and bringing the conversation about sleep into your life as a couple.

00:42:49.120 So what do you hope people walk away with?

00:42:51.200 Like, what's the big takeaway?

00:42:52.280 You want readers of your book, it's called Sharing the Covers.

00:42:54.540 What do you want them to take away or walk away with after they finish the book?

00:43:00.000 Great question.

00:43:01.000 So, I mean, I guess what I want to impress upon people with my book is that, first of

00:43:05.440 all, for far too long, we've lived in a culture that has undermined the importance of sleep.

00:43:11.420 But even that's starting to change as we recognize the individual consequences of sleep.

00:43:17.140 But if that's not enough to change your behaviors and help you prioritize sleep for your own sake,

00:43:23.120 then I want to impress with the book and the data and the research that I provide, that

00:43:28.900 if you're not going to sleep for yourself, then do it for everyone else around you and

00:43:34.640 most importantly, your closest relationships.

00:43:37.780 We really need to start focusing on sleep as being so vital for the health of our relationships.

00:43:45.580 And if you're struggling as a couple to sleep well, there's not a reason to despair because

00:43:50.860 there are strategies that work, but we first have to start having a dialogue around the

00:43:57.360 importance of sleep as a couple, and then we can start problem-solving and finding strategies

00:44:02.780 that will both improve your sleep and your relationship health.

00:44:07.000 And that's exactly what the book is intended to do, to provide couples with actionable techniques

00:44:11.640 that can improve both of their sleep and in turn improve their relationship health, recognizing

00:44:16.840 that these two things are intricately intertwined.

00:44:21.080 Well, Wendy, this has been a great conversation.

00:44:22.520 Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:44:25.220 The book, again, is available online at all major retailers.

00:44:29.320 It's called Sharing the Covers, Every Couple's Guide to Better Sleep.

00:44:33.060 I'm also on Twitter, Wendy Troxell, and you can also check out my website, wendytroxell.com.

00:44:38.900 All right.

00:44:39.180 Well, Wendy Troxell, thanks for your time.

00:44:40.260 It's been a pleasure.

00:44:41.180 Thank you so much.

00:44:42.040 It's been a pleasure talking to you.

00:44:43.900 My guest today was Dr. Wendy Troxell.

00:44:45.520 She's the author of the book, Sharing the Covers.

00:44:47.600 It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.

00:44:49.740 You can find out more information about her work at her website, wendytroxell.com.

00:44:53.300 Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash shared sleep, where you can find links to

00:44:57.500 resources, where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:45:06.540 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast.

00:45:09.220 Check out our website at artofmanlios.com, where you can find our podcast archives, as well

00:45:12.520 as thousands of articles during the years about pretty much anything you think of.

00:45:15.200 And if you'd like to enjoy ad-free episodes of the AOM Podcast, you can do so on Stitcher

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00:45:18.960 Head over to stitcherpremium.com, sign up, use code MANLIOS at checkout for a free month

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00:45:28.300 And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate if you take one minute to give us your view

00:45:30.980 on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher.

00:45:32.100 It helps out a lot.

00:45:32.840 And if you've done that already, thank you.

00:45:34.380 Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who would think we get something

00:45:37.460 out of it.

00:45:37.980 As always, thank you for the continued support.

00:45:39.640 Until next time, this is Brett McKay.

00:45:40.680 Remind you to not only listen to the AOM Podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

00:45:45.200 Thank you.

00:45:46.200 Thank you.

The Art of Manliness - August 30, 2021

Could Sleeping in Separate Beds Improve Your Relationship？

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