The Art of Manliness - Dad's Essential Role in Making Kids Awesome

00:00:00.000 Hey, this is Brett.

00:00:00.620 I wanna let you know that we have an enrollment

00:00:01.920 going on right now for our summer cohort

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00:00:05.780 The Strenuous Life is an online, offline program

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00:00:09.380 all the things we've been talking about

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00:00:13.500 And we've done that in a few ways.

00:00:15.080 First, we created 50 different badges

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00:00:18.320 There's hard skills like wilderness survival,

00:00:20.500 outdoorsmanship, knot tying, building fires,

00:00:22.840 but also soft skills like how to be a better host,

00:00:25.380 how to improve your social skills,

00:00:26.800 how to be a better husband, better father.

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00:01:11.780 I hope to see you on The Strenuous Life.

00:01:20.880 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition

00:01:22.860 of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:01:24.460 As compared to mothers, fathers are sometimes thought of

00:01:27.880 as a secondary, almost superfluous parent.

00:01:30.520 But my guest says that fathers actually saved the human race

00:01:33.240 and continue to do so today.

00:01:35.680 Anna Machen is an evolutionary anthropologist,

00:01:37.880 a pioneer of fatherhood science,

00:01:39.400 and the author of Life of Dad.

00:01:41.820 Today on the show, we talk about the role of fathers

00:01:43.740 in human history and how their main role continues to be

00:01:46.540 teaching kids the skills they need to take risk,

00:01:49.100 become independent,

00:01:49.820 and navigate the world beyond their family.

00:01:52.600 We also talk about the physiological changes

00:01:54.480 that happen when a man becomes a father

00:01:56.040 and how dads are just as biologically primed

00:01:58.540 as mothers to parent.

00:01:59.960 In the second half of our conversation,

00:02:01.540 we talk about the experience of being a dad.

00:02:04.280 Anna shares how long it typically takes a man

00:02:06.120 to bond with a baby

00:02:06.940 and transition to the role of fatherhood,

00:02:09.280 how roughhousing is key in building that bond,

00:02:11.360 as well as developing your child's resilience,

00:02:13.160 and how your personality and background

00:02:14.660 will affect your parenting.

00:02:16.120 We end our conversation with the difference

00:02:17.600 in how the relationship between mom and dad

00:02:19.180 affects how they parent

00:02:20.000 and the implications of that

00:02:21.400 for building a strong family.

00:02:23.340 After the show's over,

00:02:24.260 check out our show notes at aom.is slash lifeofdad.

00:02:39.640 All right, Anna Machen, welcome to the show.

00:02:42.220 Hello, thanks for having me.

00:02:43.540 So you are an evolutionary anthropologist,

00:02:46.360 and you've done a lot of your research on fatherhood.

00:02:49.740 What led you down that path?

00:02:51.760 It was actually a really personal experience

00:02:54.340 that led me to it.

00:02:55.420 I had my first child about 17 years ago.

00:02:58.760 And at the time when I gave birth to my first child,

00:03:01.500 it wasn't a particularly pleasant experience.

00:03:03.520 I was very ill.

00:03:04.380 My baby was very ill.

00:03:05.520 It was very traumatic.

00:03:07.300 And afterwards, I was offered lots of opportunities

00:03:10.100 to talk about it, for counseling, that kind of thing.

00:03:12.920 And my husband, who, to be honest,

00:03:15.180 had witnessed much more than me,

00:03:16.180 because I'd passed out.

00:03:17.260 I wasn't really, really aware of what was going on.

00:03:19.040 My husband, who witnessed everything,

00:03:20.940 wasn't offered anything at all.

00:03:22.740 And even two years after our child was born,

00:03:26.300 he still couldn't speak about the birth

00:03:28.460 without getting very, very upset.

00:03:30.480 And so this made me, to be honest, quite angry,

00:03:32.920 because we'd gone into the whole process

00:03:34.620 of having children as a team.

00:03:36.000 You know, you decide to have children together.

00:03:37.560 You do the tests together.

00:03:38.820 You go to the antenatal appointments together.

00:03:41.060 And at that point in that birthing room,

00:03:44.120 we weren't a team.

00:03:45.060 He was kind of excluded and shoved into the corner

00:03:46.940 while they dealt with me and dealt with my baby.

00:03:48.820 So I was quite cross about the way he'd been dealt with.

00:03:52.440 And when I went back to work at Oxford,

00:03:54.540 where my job was to research close human relationships,

00:03:57.460 I thought, okay, I'm just going to have a quick look

00:03:59.780 about what's out there about fatherhood in the literature.

00:04:03.580 And I found lots and lots of stuff

00:04:05.160 to do with absent fathers

00:04:06.460 and the impact that they have on children,

00:04:09.120 which, you know, is real

00:04:09.900 and is something we need to acknowledge.

00:04:12.340 But there was nothing on actually the vast majority of men

00:04:16.280 who actually do stick around, divorced or not,

00:04:18.960 and input into their children's lives

00:04:20.480 and support their children and help them grow.

00:04:22.700 And as an anthropologist,

00:04:24.460 I think that's an enormous absence in the literature.

00:04:28.020 You know, we're supposed to understand human society

00:04:29.680 and we hadn't bothered

00:04:30.580 to look at this very major figure in our society.

00:04:33.120 So that's really where I started, you know, now 17 years ago,

00:04:37.140 asking very, very basic questions

00:04:39.300 because none had been asked.

00:04:40.240 So asking, you know,

00:04:41.420 what happens to a man when he becomes a father,

00:04:43.380 psychologically, practically, neurochemically?

00:04:46.920 How does he build his relationship with his children?

00:04:49.460 What's his role in their lives?

00:04:50.780 That sort of thing.

00:04:51.340 Just very, very basic questions,

00:04:52.500 very searching questions

00:04:53.540 to try and get some basic idea

00:04:55.820 about who this person was.

00:04:58.760 Why do you think fatherhood had been overlooked

00:05:00.640 by scientists until recently?

00:05:03.460 I think because particularly in the West,

00:05:06.600 we have a major focus on the mother as the parent.

00:05:11.120 And there's a, and you know, I'm a mom

00:05:12.660 and I'm very grateful for that,

00:05:13.860 but it's a little bit like a cult of the mother

00:05:15.800 to a certain extent.

00:05:16.840 And so we only really see them as the true parent

00:05:19.240 because in our culture,

00:05:20.280 they tend to be the primary caretaker, for example.

00:05:22.220 Obviously they're going through this amazing,

00:05:23.820 very obvious physiological change

00:05:25.560 when they have a child.

00:05:26.340 And so I think we focused on them

00:05:28.880 because we also have this cultural idea

00:05:31.660 that fathers are kind of very much a secondary parent.

00:05:35.320 You know, even at times in our history,

00:05:37.200 we've seen them as very much as dispensable,

00:05:38.780 as really not terribly important.

00:05:40.580 I mean, certainly when I started,

00:05:41.900 it was felt that the love between a child and mother

00:05:44.680 was much more powerful than that

00:05:45.880 between a father and a child

00:05:47.640 and that they had no role in development, for example.

00:05:49.980 So I think we built all these myths up about them

00:05:52.240 from our cultural ideas.

00:05:53.900 And we just felt that there was really nothing to say

00:05:57.400 about them, to be honest.

00:05:59.800 So you wrote a book called The Life of Dad,

00:06:01.480 where you just bring in all the research

00:06:03.980 that's been done,

00:06:05.380 psychological research, anthropological research,

00:06:07.960 biological research on fatherhood

00:06:09.680 and put it in a very reader-friendly format.

00:06:12.400 And you start off the book with this line,

00:06:16.060 it is a little known fact,

00:06:17.940 but fathers saved the human race.

00:06:20.720 So how did dad save the human race?

00:06:22.800 They really did.

00:06:25.200 So we have two anatomical quirks as an ape.

00:06:28.060 We have very, very large brains.

00:06:30.580 They're six times bigger than they should be

00:06:31.900 for a mammal of our size.

00:06:32.920 And we walk bipedally on two legs.

00:06:34.680 So we have a very narrowed birth canal.

00:06:36.840 And this has meant that we have to birth our babies

00:06:40.260 much earlier than they should be.

00:06:42.060 They should be gestating for much,

00:06:43.400 much longer in the womb.

00:06:44.680 And because of this,

00:06:45.360 our babies are born what we call secondarily altricial,

00:06:48.040 which basically means they're born helpless.

00:06:49.560 And because of this,

00:06:51.500 unlike our fellow ape cousins who,

00:06:53.700 you know, if you see a chimpanzee baby there,

00:06:55.400 you know, rampaging through the trees

00:06:56.700 pretty soon after birth,

00:06:58.420 our children need everything given to them

00:07:00.480 and everything done for them when they're newborns.

00:07:02.640 And initially this started happening,

00:07:04.440 this kind of like issue started happening

00:07:05.800 about 1.8 million years ago.

00:07:07.340 And at that point,

00:07:08.540 female kin came together

00:07:09.860 to help raise these very dependent offspring.

00:07:11.840 Because obviously you can't go and forage,

00:07:13.100 you can't go and find food,

00:07:13.980 you can't find sources of water

00:07:15.080 if you're trying to deal with this very dependent baby.

00:07:17.160 So, you know, babysitting happens,

00:07:18.800 that kind of thing.

00:07:19.800 But about half a million years ago,

00:07:21.420 our brains took another really,

00:07:23.160 really dramatic jump in size.

00:07:25.600 And at that point,

00:07:26.660 women could no longer help each other with their babies.

00:07:29.720 They had to input so much into their own child

00:07:31.920 to keep it alive

00:07:32.760 that they couldn't help each other.

00:07:34.560 And so what happened next

00:07:35.900 is the next genetically related person stepped in

00:07:38.900 and that was dad.

00:07:40.040 And at that point,

00:07:40.860 human fatherhood evolved,

00:07:41.940 which is a really, really rare thing

00:07:44.180 in the mammalian line.

00:07:45.340 There's only 5% of mammals have investing fathers

00:07:47.700 and we're the only ape that has it.

00:07:49.540 So it's a very rare thing to happen.

00:07:51.280 But at that point,

00:07:51.900 dad stepped in and ensured

00:07:54.340 that mums could go on,

00:07:56.060 carry on reproducing

00:07:57.040 and ensured that these very,

00:07:58.800 very dependent babies,

00:08:00.120 you know,

00:08:00.760 would grow to adulthood with the right support.

00:08:02.580 So fathers took on this very,

00:08:03.700 very important role at this point

00:08:04.980 in terms of, in a way,

00:08:06.920 taking the toddlers off their partner's hands,

00:08:09.140 taking the adolescents off the partner's hands,

00:08:11.240 taking up a role in teaching

00:08:12.400 and supporting these sort of young children

00:08:14.480 and young adults

00:08:15.260 so that mom could focus on

00:08:17.140 either being pregnant

00:08:18.280 or nursing a newborn.

00:08:19.440 And absolutely,

00:08:20.260 if that had not happened,

00:08:22.100 then our species would not have been able

00:08:23.600 to replace the population

00:08:24.720 and we would have died out.

00:08:26.720 Okay.

00:08:26.880 So dad stepped in

00:08:28.000 when our brains got really big

00:08:29.860 and to save the human race.

00:08:32.380 And you talk about,

00:08:33.800 if you look across

00:08:34.680 the anthropological research

00:08:36.300 across time and cultures,

00:08:38.480 you found that there are two

00:08:39.820 key characteristics of fatherhood.

00:08:42.340 What are those two key characteristics?

00:08:44.480 Yeah.

00:08:44.720 What's really interesting about fatherhood

00:08:45.700 when you look at it around the world

00:08:46.520 is it's so different.

00:08:47.980 And that stands out

00:08:48.900 as compared to mothers

00:08:49.920 because mothers are quite biologically tied.

00:08:52.340 Whereas fathers,

00:08:52.840 because we're not tied

00:08:53.900 to pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding,

00:08:55.980 fathers can be a little bit more flexible.

00:08:57.420 So first of all,

00:08:58.120 they always have this very flexible role.

00:08:59.600 They're called facultative.

00:09:00.820 And that means they are the parent

00:09:02.660 that reacts to changes in the environment

00:09:04.320 that might, for example,

00:09:05.340 risk the child's survival.

00:09:06.960 So they are the ones to switch roles

00:09:08.360 very, very quickly

00:09:09.320 to make sure that child survives.

00:09:10.380 So that's kind of the first one,

00:09:12.020 you know,

00:09:12.280 that they are very, very flexible.

00:09:14.480 The second one

00:09:15.360 is they have this role in,

00:09:17.740 we kind of call it

00:09:18.520 scaffolding the child's entry

00:09:19.900 into the world beyond the family.

00:09:21.520 And that is very much based on two things.

00:09:23.800 It's based on being the parent

00:09:25.620 who inputs into the developmental side

00:09:28.200 that helps a child do that.

00:09:29.600 So when you step away from your family

00:09:31.940 and you go into the broader social world,

00:09:33.480 which for humans

00:09:34.060 is incredibly complicated,

00:09:36.600 there are lots of sets of skills

00:09:37.780 you need to learn

00:09:38.520 in terms of social interaction,

00:09:40.060 pro-social behaviors,

00:09:41.720 inhibition of inappropriate behaviors

00:09:43.620 and emotions,

00:09:44.440 these sorts of things.

00:09:45.500 So fathers are the ones

00:09:46.340 that input into that development,

00:09:47.720 but they also teach.

00:09:49.820 They are the teaching parent.

00:09:51.380 They are the ones that teach the skills

00:09:53.120 that are going to help that child

00:09:54.560 survive in that environment.

00:09:55.700 And because all those environments

00:09:56.600 are different,

00:09:57.940 what they teach is very different.

00:10:00.060 And so you will see

00:10:01.060 this real variability around the world.

00:10:02.540 But what brings them all together

00:10:04.100 is this focus on risk

00:10:07.480 and this focus on helping the child

00:10:09.820 survive in the world beyond the family

00:10:11.140 by teaching them

00:10:12.120 and by underpinning those behaviors,

00:10:15.340 those traits that are going to help

00:10:16.780 that child thrive in that environment.

00:10:19.240 Okay.

00:10:19.440 So flexibility and teaching.

00:10:23.060 Yeah.

00:10:23.860 Yeah.

00:10:24.180 And I guess the flexibility part goes to

00:10:26.100 dads will adapt to help the child survive,

00:10:29.220 like to protect and provide

00:10:30.380 and all that stuff.

00:10:30.820 They'll do what they have to do.

00:10:31.960 And that's going to be different in cultures.

00:10:33.360 And then beyond just mere survival,

00:10:37.140 the dads will then teach the kids

00:10:38.900 what they need to do

00:10:39.840 to thrive outside of the family.

00:10:42.140 Absolutely.

00:10:42.660 Yeah.

00:10:42.880 So what we say,

00:10:43.880 and there's a very good model

00:10:44.940 which was developed by an anthropologist

00:10:46.860 called Robert Devine,

00:10:48.080 which kind of explains

00:10:50.100 why we see this variability

00:10:51.340 in fathering around the world.

00:10:52.340 And it is based on risk.

00:10:53.640 So what a father does

00:10:54.540 is he assesses the risk in his environment

00:10:56.800 and he will then tailor his role

00:10:59.200 to deal with that particular risk.

00:11:00.860 So if you are in a very, very dangerous environment,

00:11:04.200 maybe there's a high disease load

00:11:05.620 or it's a very violent society,

00:11:08.360 the father's role there

00:11:09.140 is very much based upon

00:11:10.320 the actual physical survival of that child.

00:11:12.800 So it might be that he has to spend

00:11:14.700 a lot of time defending the child.

00:11:16.300 It might be that he has to spend

00:11:17.900 a lot of time inputting into the child

00:11:19.500 to make them strong enough

00:11:20.260 to deal with the disease load, for example.

00:11:22.700 If your survival is okay,

00:11:24.800 but economic hardship is the issue,

00:11:27.320 is the risk in that environment,

00:11:28.340 then a father spends a lot of time

00:11:29.840 making sure the child knows

00:11:31.620 how to make money, how to survive.

00:11:34.320 And so in those societies,

00:11:35.620 you see a lot of teaching around

00:11:36.980 how you can economically survive.

00:11:39.160 So for example, if you're a pastoralist,

00:11:40.580 you spend a lot of time

00:11:41.240 with your child in the fields,

00:11:42.320 showing them how to grow the crops

00:11:45.320 or deal with the animals

00:11:46.380 that are going to be

00:11:47.140 the economic future for that child.

00:11:49.660 And then if you look in the West,

00:11:50.820 we kind of,

00:11:51.780 we're okay in terms of our physical survival,

00:11:53.640 we're okay in terms of our economic survival,

00:11:55.640 certainly compared to the third world.

00:11:56.920 And therefore there,

00:11:58.700 it's actually your cultural

00:11:59.700 and social survival that matters.

00:12:01.940 And that's why we have this kind of joke

00:12:03.460 of the Western dad of, you know,

00:12:04.720 making sure that the kid gets good work experience

00:12:07.480 or tapping all their friends for, you know,

00:12:09.860 entries into good universities,

00:12:11.360 whatever it might be.

00:12:12.100 And that's what a dad will focus on in the West.

00:12:13.940 And it's a really helpful model

00:12:15.360 because I quite often get asked,

00:12:18.300 what's a good father?

00:12:20.000 And my answer is,

00:12:20.920 a good father is very dependent

00:12:22.800 on the environment.

00:12:23.700 Because we see in the West,

00:12:25.960 a good father is somebody

00:12:26.840 who gets involved in that child's life,

00:12:28.520 nurtures them,

00:12:29.680 you know,

00:12:29.920 does all the things that a mom can do,

00:12:32.040 but also, you know,

00:12:32.840 supports them,

00:12:33.700 scaffolds them in their education,

00:12:35.500 all that kind of thing.

00:12:36.660 Well, that's great in our environment.

00:12:38.020 But if you're in an environment

00:12:39.080 where you're going to get killed by a lion,

00:12:41.420 that's not going to be very helpful.

00:12:42.860 We don't need you to do all that.

00:12:43.980 We actually just need you to be really strong

00:12:45.300 and be able to run.

00:12:46.540 So when people say to me,

00:12:47.840 what's a good dad?

00:12:48.880 It's very, very environment dependent.

00:12:51.200 I want to dig more into this key characteristic

00:12:53.740 of dads that they teach their kids.

00:12:56.240 I want to talk more,

00:12:57.200 like what sorts of things do you see

00:12:58.860 across cultures

00:12:59.840 that dads are teaching their children?

00:13:02.700 Again, it's really,

00:13:03.640 there's these two areas.

00:13:04.880 It's kind of like the social skills.

00:13:07.300 So what you tend to see in all societies

00:13:10.240 is fathers kind of,

00:13:12.220 particularly with adolescents,

00:13:14.060 will start taking the adolescents out with them.

00:13:17.280 It might be that you're a hunter-gatherer,

00:13:18.740 in which case you're going to teach them

00:13:20.380 the skills of the hunt.

00:13:21.540 And you're also going to teach them

00:13:22.720 the social network relationships they need

00:13:25.100 because hunting is a cooperative behavior

00:13:27.060 so that they can build their own hunting group

00:13:29.640 so they can go and hunt and be successful.

00:13:31.680 So it depends on what you need in that environment.

00:13:34.600 And whether that be in a business environment,

00:13:36.180 in sort of societies where economic risk is high,

00:13:39.800 you know, you take them to the market with you,

00:13:41.560 take them to the meetings

00:13:43.360 where prices for things are negotiated

00:13:45.280 or, you know, relationships,

00:13:47.000 business relationships are made.

00:13:48.500 Or, you know, if you're in the West,

00:13:50.840 you know, you take them to the golf course

00:13:52.120 to meet your business buddies

00:13:53.040 or however it might be.

00:13:54.220 We see this thing where,

00:13:55.520 particularly with adolescents,

00:13:56.920 fathers have this real focus

00:13:59.040 on preparing that child to be an adult.

00:14:02.260 It's that kind of focus of,

00:14:03.840 right, okay,

00:14:04.800 one day you're going to be independent.

00:14:05.980 I'm going to give you all those skills.

00:14:07.720 And so we find that.

00:14:08.680 And what's really interesting is

00:14:09.700 humans are the only species on the planet

00:14:11.580 that has childhood and adolescence.

00:14:14.040 It's called a life history stage.

00:14:15.540 Most animal,

00:14:16.660 well, all animals have three life history stages,

00:14:18.720 which is infant, juvenile, adult.

00:14:21.200 That's it.

00:14:21.880 Because we have such big brains,

00:14:23.640 our offspring need lots and lots of time

00:14:25.880 for that brain to grow

00:14:27.020 and to learn everything.

00:14:27.840 So we've added a couple,

00:14:28.820 which are childhood and adolescence.

00:14:30.580 And particularly in adolescence

00:14:33.280 is when fathers really come to the fore

00:14:35.740 in terms of taking their children

00:14:37.480 and teaching them

00:14:38.320 what they're going to need

00:14:39.560 to deal with life going forward,

00:14:41.500 practically and also socially.

00:14:44.040 Yeah.

00:14:44.440 If I look at my own fathering,

00:14:46.160 you know,

00:14:46.420 I was an involved dad

00:14:47.140 when my kids were babies,

00:14:48.820 fed them,

00:14:49.440 changed diapers and things like that.

00:14:50.860 But it's been interesting to see

00:14:52.400 as they've gotten older,

00:14:54.040 I feel like I'm doing more.

00:14:56.360 Like I'm teaching them about,

00:14:57.620 like the other day,

00:14:58.520 a few weeks ago,

00:14:59.260 I took them to the bank

00:15:00.260 to open up a checking account

00:15:01.900 and taught them like,

00:15:03.740 okay,

00:15:03.920 here's how a checking account works.

00:15:05.240 And I made them like,

00:15:05.920 talk to the bank person,

00:15:08.000 give them their information.

00:15:08.960 And I was like,

00:15:09.720 they need to know this stuff.

00:15:11.060 So once they turn 18

00:15:12.600 and they're out of the house.

00:15:13.980 So I'm always thinking like,

00:15:15.060 what do I got to teach them

00:15:15.920 about insurance?

00:15:16.860 What do I got to teach them about,

00:15:18.400 you know,

00:15:18.860 car maintenance,

00:15:19.760 things like that.

00:15:20.700 Yeah.

00:15:20.860 And you're doing what,

00:15:21.840 what,

00:15:22.160 you know,

00:15:22.480 a father does is in our environment.

00:15:24.300 These are all skills

00:15:25.200 that your children need to know.

00:15:26.800 They need to know

00:15:27.480 so they can cope with life.

00:15:28.400 And the fact that you told them

00:15:29.160 they had to speak

00:15:29.900 to the teller at the bank,

00:15:31.180 you know,

00:15:31.760 you're again,

00:15:32.120 you're scaffolding

00:15:32.780 those social relationships

00:15:33.780 that they're going to have to build

00:15:34.940 and be able to do

00:15:35.800 to survive in our society.

00:15:37.520 So it's all about

00:15:38.700 preparing them

00:15:39.740 to be able to go out

00:15:40.620 and be alone.

00:15:41.660 It's been really interesting

00:15:42.460 to see my shift.

00:15:43.640 I'm thinking,

00:15:44.100 you know,

00:15:44.520 with my son,

00:15:45.120 I've got,

00:15:45.840 you know,

00:15:46.540 maybe five more years

00:15:48.420 with him in the house.

00:15:49.980 And I'm,

00:15:50.480 I'm really thinking

00:15:51.160 I need to spend more time

00:15:52.280 with him.

00:15:52.600 I need to,

00:15:53.040 I'm willing to like

00:15:54.340 take my foot off the gas

00:15:55.680 at work

00:15:56.280 so that I can spend more time

00:15:57.560 to teach him all the stuff

00:15:58.580 that I think he needs to know

00:15:59.580 before he goes out there

00:16:00.680 on his own.

00:16:01.120 It's been interesting

00:16:01.580 to observe it myself.

00:16:02.900 Yeah,

00:16:03.140 absolutely.

00:16:03.680 And I think that pattern

00:16:04.420 is repeated over and over

00:16:06.020 that that's a really,

00:16:07.280 really key time

00:16:08.020 of fathers taking on this role.

00:16:09.480 And we know also,

00:16:10.380 I mean,

00:16:10.500 what you're doing

00:16:11.280 is perfect

00:16:12.360 for your son's mental health,

00:16:14.220 for example.

00:16:14.820 We know that dads,

00:16:15.960 particularly in adolescence,

00:16:17.620 fathers are the biggest input

00:16:19.720 into their child's mental health.

00:16:21.600 There's something about

00:16:22.680 being with your dad

00:16:23.620 in adolescence

00:16:24.420 that builds your self-esteem

00:16:26.000 and reduces our,

00:16:27.480 you know,

00:16:27.680 feelings of loneliness

00:16:28.560 or reducing feelings

00:16:29.300 of depression or anxiety.

00:16:30.480 And there's now

00:16:30.920 a building body of work

00:16:33.220 of very good data

00:16:34.640 showing this,

00:16:35.560 that it's actually dad

00:16:36.700 and it doesn't have to be

00:16:37.980 anything amazing.

00:16:39.160 You don't have to,

00:16:39.760 you know,

00:16:39.980 spend lots of money

00:16:40.760 and do something amazing

00:16:41.620 with your child.

00:16:42.540 Just for example,

00:16:43.180 the fact that you took

00:16:43.980 them to a bank

00:16:45.120 and did that with them,

00:16:46.120 they will have felt,

00:16:46.920 okay,

00:16:47.020 my dad thinks I'm important to him.

00:16:48.820 He's doing something with me

00:16:50.020 to help me in my future

00:16:51.000 and that will have built

00:16:51.720 his self-esteem.

00:16:53.520 I think it's interesting

00:16:54.100 you said that dads

00:16:54.700 play a big role

00:16:55.640 in social development

00:16:57.320 of their kids

00:16:57.960 because I think typically

00:16:58.840 the stereotype is,

00:16:59.860 well,

00:17:00.040 women are better

00:17:00.680 at social skills

00:17:01.680 and things like that.

00:17:02.520 What's going on there?

00:17:03.660 What are dads doing

00:17:04.680 differently from moms

00:17:06.080 when it comes

00:17:06.920 to social development?

00:17:07.940 I think probably

00:17:08.460 the difference is

00:17:09.080 we have this kind of thing,

00:17:09.980 yeah,

00:17:10.100 that women are good at,

00:17:11.060 but what women are good at

00:17:12.460 is kind of the emotional,

00:17:13.900 empathetic side

00:17:14.680 of social skills,

00:17:15.880 of that kind of

00:17:16.920 building those really

00:17:18.160 beautiful,

00:17:18.660 empathetic relationships,

00:17:19.940 kind of remembering

00:17:20.580 all the sort of lovely

00:17:21.440 autobiographical details

00:17:22.620 about people's lives

00:17:23.580 and talking about them.

00:17:24.860 When we say that fathers

00:17:25.840 are involved in social development,

00:17:27.360 what we're talking about

00:17:28.320 is kind of the skills

00:17:29.900 that allow you

00:17:30.520 to rub along in life

00:17:31.720 even if it's just

00:17:32.640 with strangers.

00:17:34.180 And so,

00:17:34.760 like,

00:17:35.060 if we look at preschool children,

00:17:37.060 so preschool is like

00:17:37.960 the first time

00:17:38.540 you leave the comfort

00:17:39.920 of your family

00:17:40.660 who are probably

00:17:41.240 a little bit more tolerant

00:17:42.140 than most people

00:17:42.880 and go out into the world

00:17:44.000 as an independent being.

00:17:45.160 Your mom and daddy

00:17:45.580 are going to leave you

00:17:46.140 at preschool,

00:17:46.820 suddenly you're on your own

00:17:47.940 and you have to,

00:17:48.800 like,

00:17:49.000 rub along with all these people

00:17:50.020 who you've never met before.

00:17:51.280 And we know that dads

00:17:52.300 have a bigger role,

00:17:53.100 for example,

00:17:53.760 in how well their children

00:17:55.600 transition into preschool,

00:17:56.900 how comfortable that is.

00:17:58.020 We know that they have

00:17:59.440 the bigger role

00:17:59.940 in things like teaching them

00:18:00.920 what we call pro-social skills.

00:18:02.540 So pro-social skills

00:18:03.820 are things like

00:18:04.400 sharing,

00:18:05.320 caring,

00:18:05.580 and helping.

00:18:06.500 So these sort of,

00:18:07.300 these tricks that allow you

00:18:08.780 to get along with people.

00:18:09.820 We know that in terms

00:18:10.960 of social language development,

00:18:12.880 fathers are more involved

00:18:13.960 in social language development

00:18:15.100 and they're also the ones

00:18:16.320 that influence

00:18:17.060 whether or not a child

00:18:18.260 has what we would call

00:18:18.940 anti-social behavior.

00:18:20.400 So anti-social behavior

00:18:21.440 is, you know,

00:18:22.100 obviously behavior

00:18:23.080 which might be

00:18:24.040 inappropriate

00:18:24.600 in terms of emotional level,

00:18:26.060 inappropriate in terms of

00:18:26.960 inhibiting unhelpful behaviors,

00:18:29.580 possibly violence,

00:18:30.480 that kind of thing.

00:18:31.460 If you have a strong bond

00:18:33.180 with your father

00:18:34.000 and a strong attachment

00:18:35.380 as a preschooler,

00:18:36.580 you are much less likely

00:18:37.660 to show those behaviors.

00:18:39.420 So fathers,

00:18:40.060 it's more about

00:18:40.820 the rules of society.

00:18:43.060 From me,

00:18:43.640 you will get the rules of society

00:18:45.060 and you will know

00:18:46.020 how to behave in this world.

00:18:47.300 Whereas I think mums,

00:18:48.000 it's much more about

00:18:48.720 empathy and emotional connection.

00:18:51.600 Maybe that they are

00:18:52.600 more adept at that.

00:18:54.340 So something you do

00:18:55.840 is you take readers

00:18:56.860 through the research

00:18:57.620 that shows that

00:18:58.760 not only has evolution

00:18:59.840 shaped moms to be moms,

00:19:01.720 it's also shaped dads

00:19:03.380 to be dads.

00:19:04.440 And it's not just psychologically,

00:19:06.560 there's physiological changes

00:19:08.340 that happen

00:19:09.160 even before a baby is born.

00:19:11.520 That happened in men.

00:19:12.780 So let's start with biology.

00:19:13.940 How does a man's biology change

00:19:15.920 to prepare him for fatherhood

00:19:17.820 even before the baby is born?

00:19:19.840 It's really interesting.

00:19:20.920 Yeah, so two things happen.

00:19:22.100 The first is he goes through

00:19:23.500 a hormonal change.

00:19:25.460 And what happens is

00:19:26.300 when a man becomes a father

00:19:27.800 for the first time,

00:19:28.940 his testosterone level drops.

00:19:31.220 And it never returns

00:19:32.860 to pre-birth levels

00:19:34.680 unless he loses complete contact

00:19:37.000 with his child.

00:19:37.740 So even in divorced fathers

00:19:39.120 or separated fathers

00:19:39.920 who still maintain contact,

00:19:41.240 that testosterone level

00:19:42.700 will stay low.

00:19:43.900 And the reason for that

00:19:45.160 is really, really important

00:19:46.240 is because testosterone

00:19:47.180 is the hormone of mating.

00:19:48.620 So it's really good

00:19:50.400 at making you competitive

00:19:51.840 to find a mate

00:19:52.700 and it's very good

00:19:53.340 at making you more attractive

00:19:54.440 to the opposite sex.

00:19:55.580 But when you have a child,

00:19:57.700 we need your attention

00:19:58.880 as a man to shift

00:19:59.700 from mating to parenting.

00:20:01.820 And therefore,

00:20:02.660 you know,

00:20:02.840 the testosterone has got to go

00:20:03.820 because it's not helpful

00:20:04.700 at that point.

00:20:05.620 And it does.

00:20:06.680 And in fact,

00:20:07.560 we shouldn't really

00:20:08.660 have been surprised

00:20:09.400 by that finding

00:20:10.000 because actually

00:20:10.500 if we look at any species

00:20:11.840 that have investing fathers,

00:20:13.140 malian, reptilian,

00:20:14.460 bird life,

00:20:15.420 they all have this

00:20:16.240 testosterone drop

00:20:17.140 to allow this behavior

00:20:18.520 to shift to parenting.

00:20:19.960 But in humans,

00:20:21.520 it's important

00:20:22.140 because what we found

00:20:22.860 is men who have

00:20:23.620 lower testosterone,

00:20:25.000 fathers or not,

00:20:26.160 are much more motivated

00:20:27.820 to care for children.

00:20:29.160 And they're much more empathetic

00:20:30.760 to those children's needs

00:20:31.880 and much more receptive

00:20:32.960 to dealing with

00:20:34.260 what that child needs.

00:20:35.280 So that testosterone drop

00:20:36.180 is important to prime that man

00:20:38.420 to be motivated to care.

00:20:40.460 But also testosterone

00:20:41.280 at high levels

00:20:42.320 blocks some of the bonding hormones

00:20:44.240 that are going to be important

00:20:45.340 in you building a bond

00:20:46.360 with your baby,

00:20:46.960 particularly dopamine

00:20:47.620 and oxytocin.

00:20:49.140 And so that drop

00:20:49.660 in testosterone

00:20:50.140 also kind of releases

00:20:51.480 the power

00:20:52.120 of those two bonding hormones

00:20:53.680 which makes it easier

00:20:54.780 for you to build a bond

00:20:55.860 with your child.

00:20:56.620 So it's a really,

00:20:57.780 really important

00:20:58.520 hormonal change.

00:20:59.600 And I think quite often

00:21:00.600 when I speak to the dads

00:21:02.000 who I study,

00:21:02.720 they will say

00:21:03.200 they can kind of feel it

00:21:04.560 because certainly

00:21:05.580 once they've had a kid,

00:21:06.580 they find that

00:21:07.020 they are much more emotional

00:21:08.760 and they're much more

00:21:10.500 influenced by stories

00:21:12.400 about children

00:21:13.080 or things you see

00:21:13.680 on the news

00:21:14.120 which are difficult

00:21:14.800 to, you know,

00:21:15.720 emotionally upsetting,

00:21:16.960 they find themselves

00:21:17.700 much more vulnerable

00:21:18.440 to those sorts of things.

00:21:19.800 So the fathers I follow

00:21:20.880 certainly say

00:21:21.300 you can feed that.

00:21:22.540 The other thing

00:21:23.580 is your brain changes.

00:21:25.240 And this is actually

00:21:26.840 identical to mums.

00:21:28.060 The same brain changes occur.

00:21:29.780 So we see changes

00:21:31.000 in the very core

00:21:31.680 of your brain,

00:21:32.440 which is where

00:21:33.520 your unconscious brain

00:21:34.920 sits on your emotions.

00:21:36.320 So we see changes

00:21:37.240 linked to nurturing

00:21:38.100 and attachment behaviours.

00:21:40.040 And we see changes

00:21:41.060 in your amygdala.

00:21:42.440 Your amygdala,

00:21:43.180 which is where

00:21:43.680 you have risk detection

00:21:44.920 and that increases in size

00:21:46.880 because obviously

00:21:47.280 a big job of being a parent

00:21:48.560 is that you detect risk

00:21:50.000 in the environment

00:21:50.440 for your child.

00:21:51.540 And then if we look

00:21:52.180 in the cortical areas

00:21:53.000 of the brain,

00:21:53.480 which is that

00:21:54.020 more nutty bit

00:21:54.800 on the outside,

00:21:55.520 which is where

00:21:55.820 your conscious brain sits,

00:21:57.260 you see increases

00:21:58.260 in grey and white matter

00:21:59.380 in sort of areas

00:22:00.420 of the brain

00:22:00.800 such as related

00:22:01.340 to planning

00:22:01.920 and attention

00:22:03.120 and problem solving,

00:22:04.300 which are all key

00:22:05.100 to being a parent,

00:22:06.000 but also in areas

00:22:06.820 linked to empathising

00:22:07.820 because obviously

00:22:08.320 you need to understand

00:22:09.300 your child's emotional state

00:22:10.900 and their emotional needs

00:22:12.220 to be able to meet

00:22:13.860 those needs essentially.

00:22:14.940 So what I always say

00:22:16.100 is actually

00:22:16.720 men are as primed

00:22:18.400 biologically to parent

00:22:19.480 as women are

00:22:20.200 just because you don't see

00:22:21.020 this massive

00:22:21.600 physical change in men,

00:22:23.620 you know,

00:22:23.840 there's no big belly

00:22:24.580 or anything like that.

00:22:25.560 It doesn't mean

00:22:26.180 nothing's happening.

00:22:26.980 Something is very,

00:22:27.760 very definitely happening.

00:22:29.580 And this is all happening

00:22:30.320 before birth?

00:22:31.620 Not necessarily, no.

00:22:33.020 It tends to happen,

00:22:34.400 we still don't quite know

00:22:36.020 when the testosterone drop happens.

00:22:37.580 This is a longitudinal study

00:22:38.740 actually happening

00:22:39.200 in the States at the moment

00:22:40.120 trying to identify that

00:22:41.180 because we have mixed messages

00:22:43.440 coming from previous studies

00:22:45.500 as to whether it occurs

00:22:46.320 in pregnancy

00:22:47.000 or whether it occurs

00:22:47.760 just after birth.

00:22:48.840 We're not sure.

00:22:49.520 So we need to work that out.

00:22:50.600 In terms of the brain changes,

00:22:51.920 you know,

00:22:52.060 those happen after birth,

00:22:53.180 but they happen after birth

00:22:54.160 in women as well.

00:22:55.780 And that's to do

00:22:56.780 with interaction with the baby.

00:22:57.960 The interaction with the baby

00:22:58.920 prompts your brain

00:22:59.980 to kind of rewire itself

00:23:01.120 and increase neuronal connections.

00:23:03.460 Yeah, the testosterone drop,

00:23:04.680 I'm curious about

00:23:05.300 what they'll find on that

00:23:06.420 because I read that

00:23:06.940 your testosterone drops

00:23:07.920 as a man

00:23:08.500 whenever you have a kid.

00:23:09.620 I always figure as well,

00:23:10.540 so you're not sleeping

00:23:11.400 and you're stressed out

00:23:12.740 and that causes

00:23:14.020 your testosterone to drop.

00:23:15.460 But I'm curious

00:23:16.400 if they can do

00:23:17.540 some sort of study

00:23:18.300 where they make sure

00:23:19.720 men get appropriate

00:23:20.940 amounts of sleep for,

00:23:21.940 you know,

00:23:22.040 I don't know how they do this

00:23:23.060 and would there still be

00:23:24.100 that testosterone drop?

00:23:26.000 Oh, it definitely

00:23:26.840 will still occur.

00:23:27.840 It definitely will still occur.

00:23:28.580 And it's very significant.

00:23:29.840 It's not the kind of drop

00:23:30.820 that you would get from,

00:23:31.800 yeah, being a bit stressed

00:23:32.520 or having a lack of sleep.

00:23:33.340 I mean, it's about a third

00:23:34.820 of your testosterone goes.

00:23:36.220 Wow.

00:23:36.740 So it's not a small drop.

00:23:38.480 It's a significant drop.

00:23:40.000 Didn't they do a study

00:23:40.800 where they looked at dads

00:23:42.440 who, you know,

00:23:43.680 they fathered a child

00:23:44.540 but they didn't associate

00:23:45.740 with the child?

00:23:46.700 And like, I guess there wasn't

00:23:47.480 that same sort of testosterone drop

00:23:49.040 because they weren't

00:23:49.440 around the baby.

00:23:50.220 No, so you have to interact

00:23:51.620 with your baby.

00:23:52.640 So if you haven't interacted,

00:23:54.060 you won't get it.

00:23:54.620 And certainly even if you did

00:23:55.700 and let's say you then

00:23:56.580 separated from your partner

00:23:57.740 and you lost contact

00:23:59.240 with your child,

00:23:59.760 your testosterone will go back up

00:24:01.380 because you are then back

00:24:03.160 in that mating field,

00:24:04.460 not in that parenting field.

00:24:05.580 So the testosterone will go back up

00:24:06.900 to aid you

00:24:07.720 in finding another mate.

00:24:09.920 We're going to take a quick break

00:24:10.860 for your words from our sponsors.

00:24:16.880 And now back to the show.

00:24:18.720 Okay, so when a baby's born,

00:24:20.500 man's testosterone is going to drop.

00:24:22.000 That's going to make them

00:24:22.660 more nurturing,

00:24:23.460 less competitive,

00:24:24.280 with less of that desire

00:24:25.280 to go out there and mate

00:24:25.980 because they're going to focus

00:24:26.540 on this child.

00:24:27.680 It allows those neurotransmitters

00:24:29.560 that allow bonding

00:24:30.840 like oxytocin

00:24:31.720 to have more of an effect

00:24:32.580 and then your brain's

00:24:33.880 going to change

00:24:34.460 to be more geared

00:24:36.060 towards relationships.

00:24:37.800 Let's talk about this one.

00:24:38.940 You talk about the research

00:24:39.920 that's been done

00:24:40.760 on a man's identity

00:24:43.040 developing into

00:24:44.640 that of a father.

00:24:46.480 The research shows

00:24:47.120 this happens during pregnancy.

00:24:48.440 Walk us through that research.

00:24:49.940 Yeah, some of it happens

00:24:50.880 during pregnancy.

00:24:51.760 The full transition

00:24:52.560 actually takes

00:24:53.280 until about 18 months

00:24:54.860 after birth in fathers,

00:24:56.380 what we call

00:24:56.800 the period of transition.

00:24:58.100 But certainly,

00:24:58.960 in many fathers,

00:24:59.900 it starts in pregnancy,

00:25:02.020 particularly if you're

00:25:02.740 the sort of father

00:25:03.620 who imagines

00:25:04.620 being an involved father.

00:25:06.240 So we find fathers

00:25:06.960 who feel that they want

00:25:08.240 to take on that role

00:25:09.360 tend to have more

00:25:10.540 of an identity shift

00:25:11.380 during pregnancy

00:25:12.100 because they tend to spend

00:25:13.580 a lot of time

00:25:14.380 kind of daydreaming

00:25:15.360 about their baby,

00:25:17.440 about what they're going

00:25:17.940 to do with their baby.

00:25:18.780 People who are going

00:25:19.200 to be involved fathers

00:25:19.900 tend to, for example,

00:25:21.180 talk to the bump more.

00:25:22.500 They tend to be more involved

00:25:24.080 in things like

00:25:24.600 antenatal appointments,

00:25:25.800 that kind of thing.

00:25:26.320 So those fathers

00:25:26.980 who envisage that

00:25:27.860 being their role,

00:25:28.740 we see quite a shift

00:25:29.940 in identity during pregnancy.

00:25:31.780 And also what's lovely

00:25:32.700 is if you are

00:25:34.380 that kind of father,

00:25:35.360 and particularly

00:25:35.640 if you do spend

00:25:36.120 a lot of time daydreaming

00:25:37.180 and having positive thoughts

00:25:38.560 and interacting with the bump,

00:25:40.000 you actually start

00:25:40.740 to bond with the baby

00:25:41.540 before it's born,

00:25:43.220 which is really important

00:25:44.140 because we hear a lot

00:25:44.920 from fathers

00:25:45.820 that they feel

00:25:46.500 sometimes quite distant

00:25:47.660 from the baby

00:25:48.660 during pregnancy

00:25:49.180 because obviously

00:25:49.620 they don't have

00:25:50.140 that physical connection

00:25:51.040 that the mother has.

00:25:51.900 But what we are now

00:25:53.500 trying to encourage

00:25:54.180 fathers to do

00:25:55.140 is start to build

00:25:56.280 a relationship

00:25:56.800 during pregnancy

00:25:57.600 as much as they can

00:25:58.600 because we also know

00:25:59.660 that if you do that,

00:26:01.480 you will find it

00:26:02.340 much easier

00:26:03.040 after birth

00:26:03.980 to deal with maybe

00:26:04.820 the difficult times

00:26:05.860 that come with

00:26:06.280 having a baby.

00:26:06.900 You know,

00:26:07.020 as you mentioned,

00:26:07.660 no sleep,

00:26:08.400 crying constantly,

00:26:09.800 whatever it might be.

00:26:10.640 It helps you

00:26:11.720 after birth

00:26:12.460 to actually maintain

00:26:14.080 and grow

00:26:14.780 on that foundation

00:26:15.720 you've already made

00:26:16.460 during pregnancy.

00:26:17.100 So what are some things

00:26:18.360 that dads-to-be

00:26:19.220 can do

00:26:19.660 to develop

00:26:20.160 that relationship

00:26:20.820 with their child

00:26:22.120 even before

00:26:22.740 he or she is born?

00:26:24.420 I know it sounds,

00:26:25.240 I know dads find this

00:26:26.100 really uncomfortable,

00:26:26.660 but absolutely,

00:26:27.380 seriously,

00:26:28.080 interact with the bump

00:26:28.940 as much as you can

00:26:29.700 and particularly

00:26:30.080 in terms of talking

00:26:30.920 to it or singing to it

00:26:32.320 so that your baby

00:26:33.680 can hear you

00:26:34.580 and it's really important.

00:26:36.260 So just let it

00:26:37.040 hear your voice.

00:26:37.560 You don't even have

00:26:38.180 to talk to it

00:26:38.760 and read a book to it.

00:26:39.700 Read, I don't know,

00:26:40.280 read the sports pages.

00:26:41.580 It doesn't really matter

00:26:42.780 what you read,

00:26:43.960 but let it hear your voice.

00:26:45.220 It can't tell

00:26:46.560 that you're touching

00:26:47.220 the bump, for example,

00:26:48.080 but that could help you

00:26:49.020 if you put your hand

00:26:49.860 on the bump

00:26:50.240 and you can feel

00:26:50.680 the baby moving.

00:26:51.520 That's much more

00:26:52.180 of a physical connection

00:26:53.180 for you

00:26:53.620 and it will also

00:26:54.340 release oxytocin.

00:26:55.400 So those are two things

00:26:56.480 you can do

00:26:56.860 and don't underestimate

00:26:57.940 the power of daydreaming.

00:26:59.420 So take some time

00:27:00.340 to imagine

00:27:01.280 who your baby's going to be

00:27:02.700 and what are you looking forward

00:27:04.000 to doing with your baby?

00:27:05.400 That kind of thing

00:27:06.200 because we have

00:27:07.940 a very suggestive imagination,

00:27:10.460 a very suggestive brain

00:27:11.520 and you can start

00:27:12.300 to build bonds

00:27:12.880 within your imagination.

00:27:13.800 So it's very important

00:27:15.240 to just take that time

00:27:16.320 to maybe have a think

00:27:17.380 about what you're

00:27:18.560 looking forward to

00:27:19.120 as a father

00:27:19.580 and what you're going to

00:27:21.040 introduce your child to,

00:27:22.560 for example.

00:27:23.640 And imagine doing

00:27:24.200 those typical nesting things,

00:27:25.680 you know,

00:27:26.260 putting together the crib.

00:27:28.080 That does help,

00:27:29.040 but we actually find

00:27:30.220 that those are

00:27:30.920 very practical things

00:27:32.080 and they're great,

00:27:33.560 but we really do find

00:27:34.800 those things

00:27:35.300 which engage

00:27:35.940 the emotional brain more

00:27:38.260 tend to be more powerful

00:27:39.800 than something practical.

00:27:41.500 That's interesting.

00:27:42.620 So you mentioned

00:27:43.940 that it takes about

00:27:45.000 18 months

00:27:45.920 after birth

00:27:47.160 for a father

00:27:47.840 to really fully form

00:27:49.640 that identity

00:27:50.160 as a dad

00:27:51.020 and this is related,

00:27:52.520 I want to talk about

00:27:53.160 the father-child bond

00:27:55.080 after birth.

00:27:56.800 So does that happen

00:27:58.060 right away

00:27:58.620 for a lot of men

00:28:00.000 or does it usually

00:28:00.840 take a lot of time

00:28:01.860 at 18 months?

00:28:03.160 It usually takes time

00:28:04.580 and there's a reason

00:28:05.500 for that

00:28:05.860 and I do think

00:28:06.760 it's something

00:28:07.000 we need to prepare

00:28:07.800 new fathers for

00:28:08.880 because we all have

00:28:09.780 this mythology

00:28:10.400 that your baby

00:28:11.080 will come out

00:28:11.680 and you'll feel

00:28:12.200 this instant,

00:28:13.380 incredibly strong

00:28:14.340 emotional bond

00:28:15.120 to this baby

00:28:15.620 and some people do

00:28:16.720 but actually

00:28:17.200 it's quite rare

00:28:18.120 particularly in fathers

00:28:19.100 and that's because

00:28:20.880 fathers don't have

00:28:22.160 the head start

00:28:22.780 of childbirth

00:28:23.760 in particular.

00:28:24.280 So childbirth

00:28:24.820 is like a tidal wave

00:28:26.040 of bonding hormones

00:28:26.980 as a byproduct

00:28:28.020 of giving birth.

00:28:28.860 So, you know,

00:28:29.520 a mother is getting

00:28:30.520 oxytocin and dopamine

00:28:31.560 and beta endorphin

00:28:32.460 coursing through her brain

00:28:34.000 when she's giving birth.

00:28:35.400 So she has a head start.

00:28:36.940 Fathers have to build

00:28:37.780 their bond

00:28:38.140 through interaction.

00:28:39.000 That's the only way

00:28:39.420 you can do it

00:28:40.000 and when a baby is born

00:28:42.020 they're actually

00:28:43.260 pretty useless

00:28:44.260 and you certainly

00:28:44.780 don't get anything

00:28:45.720 back from them

00:28:46.400 in terms of

00:28:46.800 two-way interaction

00:28:47.560 tell at the very

00:28:48.820 earliest six weeks

00:28:49.840 when you might

00:28:50.300 get a smile.

00:28:51.840 So for fathers

00:28:52.380 that can be really hard

00:28:53.560 because you're not

00:28:54.120 actually getting

00:28:54.580 the interaction

00:28:55.140 you need to do that.

00:28:56.920 So we have this thing

00:28:57.940 where a delay

00:28:58.940 in bonding

00:28:59.520 and really

00:29:00.820 the bond

00:29:01.340 only starts

00:29:02.080 to broaden

00:29:03.180 and deepen

00:29:03.780 when you can start

00:29:05.100 having that reciprocal

00:29:05.860 interactive relationship

00:29:06.940 and that starts

00:29:08.460 at about

00:29:09.260 sort of

00:29:10.260 really six months

00:29:11.860 when you can start

00:29:12.600 playing with your baby

00:29:13.500 when you start to get

00:29:14.420 a real comeback

00:29:15.920 from them

00:29:16.300 of giggling

00:29:16.760 and babbling

00:29:17.420 and then being pleased

00:29:18.220 to see you

00:29:18.720 and you're starting

00:29:19.280 to do very gentle

00:29:20.160 what we call

00:29:20.620 rough and tumble play

00:29:21.600 which is quite a physical play

00:29:23.440 you know

00:29:23.780 I don't know

00:29:24.360 air planing around the room

00:29:25.520 or bouncing them

00:29:26.120 on your knee

00:29:26.620 or tickling them

00:29:27.860 or anything like that

00:29:28.640 that's rough and tumble play

00:29:29.620 and only when you can

00:29:30.780 start to do that

00:29:31.760 which is a really good

00:29:32.900 release of bonding hormones

00:29:33.900 for baby and father

00:29:35.020 do we start to see

00:29:36.560 a deepening

00:29:37.180 and broadening

00:29:37.640 of the bond

00:29:38.140 so if I talk to my dads

00:29:40.500 I always talk to them

00:29:41.580 you know

00:29:42.100 just after birth

00:29:43.120 and we do

00:29:43.720 quite a big interview

00:29:44.700 at the age of six months

00:29:45.660 when the baby's six months

00:29:46.320 they will say

00:29:47.340 that they did feel something

00:29:48.520 when the baby was born

00:29:49.160 but it was very much a

00:29:50.000 you are genetically related to me

00:29:51.980 therefore I care for you

00:29:53.180 but it wasn't

00:29:54.480 a deep emotional love

00:29:56.560 but if you ask them

00:29:57.920 at six months

00:29:58.320 they go

00:29:58.560 oh my god

00:29:58.980 it's categorically different now

00:30:00.660 how I feel about this baby

00:30:01.900 and so generally

00:30:03.060 most fathers

00:30:03.840 from about six months

00:30:05.040 to sort of 18 months

00:30:06.840 that's the time

00:30:07.520 when you start to really

00:30:08.520 feel the deep bond

00:30:09.340 and what we say

00:30:10.380 is by 18 months

00:30:11.280 most fathers

00:30:12.340 have fully transitioned

00:30:14.160 into the role

00:30:14.940 of being a father

00:30:15.580 and feel very much

00:30:16.420 that that's an important

00:30:17.220 part of their identity

00:30:18.140 so I think

00:30:19.240 that's some good advice

00:30:20.060 for dads to be

00:30:20.960 if they're worried about

00:30:22.120 am I going to

00:30:23.040 feel attached to my kid

00:30:24.280 you might not

00:30:24.880 yeah they really don't

00:30:25.420 and don't think

00:30:25.880 it makes you a bad father

00:30:26.640 the other thing they do

00:30:27.460 is they look at their partner

00:30:28.580 and because she's had

00:30:29.760 this head start

00:30:30.320 sometimes she will

00:30:31.700 appear to have

00:30:32.440 a much deeper bond

00:30:33.180 than you

00:30:33.560 and you start

00:30:34.480 comparing yourself

00:30:35.480 don't do that

00:30:36.780 because she has

00:30:38.060 had a head start

00:30:38.920 and it will come

00:30:41.000 it absolutely will come

00:30:42.400 and it doesn't mean

00:30:43.320 your baby doesn't like you

00:30:44.440 and it doesn't mean

00:30:45.000 that you're doing

00:30:45.380 a bad job

00:30:45.940 it's just basically

00:30:47.060 biology

00:30:47.580 that's what's

00:30:48.660 hindering

00:30:49.200 the formation

00:30:49.840 of the bond

00:30:50.320 and if you give it time

00:30:51.880 it will come

00:30:52.480 let's talk more about

00:30:53.960 this rough and tumble play

00:30:55.260 because this is interesting

00:30:56.220 because you see this

00:30:57.200 not just in humans

00:30:58.120 but this happens

00:30:58.800 in other species

00:30:59.760 other mammals as well

00:31:00.960 the dad

00:31:02.380 if the dad's around

00:31:03.260 will engage in

00:31:04.420 roughhousing

00:31:05.280 with their kids

00:31:06.340 what role does

00:31:07.460 roughhousing and play

00:31:08.860 serve in forming

00:31:10.000 the father-child bond

00:31:11.520 why do we do it

00:31:12.520 there's two reasons

00:31:13.440 we do it actually

00:31:14.000 and you're absolutely right

00:31:14.840 a lot of mammals play

00:31:16.140 and it's developmentally

00:31:17.200 really really important

00:31:18.660 but there's two reasons

00:31:19.640 why humans do it

00:31:20.340 the first is to build a bond

00:31:21.580 and particularly in

00:31:23.140 the time poor west

00:31:24.560 where we still have a model

00:31:25.620 of fathers being

00:31:26.780 the primary wage

00:31:27.640 and as quite often

00:31:28.500 away from the house

00:31:29.540 they have to try

00:31:30.820 and form this bond

00:31:31.660 quite quickly

00:31:33.040 in a quite time efficient way

00:31:34.740 and rough and tumble play

00:31:35.660 is brilliant at that

00:31:36.480 because it's very fast

00:31:37.640 and because it's very physical

00:31:38.700 it's a real driver

00:31:40.700 for a release

00:31:41.520 of a lot of the bonding hormones

00:31:42.560 very very quickly

00:31:43.520 so it works well

00:31:45.000 from that point of view

00:31:45.920 the other reason

00:31:47.240 why it's important

00:31:48.140 is it's developmentally

00:31:49.200 very important

00:31:49.940 because we live

00:31:51.000 in a very social world

00:31:52.160 which is all about

00:31:52.820 give and take

00:31:53.600 and rough and tumble play

00:31:55.340 is like an extreme form

00:31:56.400 of give and take

00:31:57.140 you have to play

00:31:58.180 with that person

00:31:58.900 you know it's quite

00:31:59.940 a challenging way of playing

00:32:01.440 it's quite a risky way

00:32:02.460 of playing

00:32:02.920 but you have to be very good

00:32:04.160 at reading the other person

00:32:05.140 to make sure it's still fun

00:32:06.220 that it hasn't gone over

00:32:07.380 into being actually

00:32:08.460 a little bit too rough

00:32:09.580 for example

00:32:10.220 so it's actually

00:32:11.420 very important developmentally

00:32:12.380 because it teaches

00:32:12.920 the child about reciprocity

00:32:14.280 it teaches them about

00:32:15.740 empathy and reading

00:32:16.600 the other person's

00:32:17.620 emotional state

00:32:18.540 and it teaches them

00:32:19.560 about confronting

00:32:20.360 challenge and risk

00:32:21.720 because one of the key jobs

00:32:23.480 of a dad

00:32:24.120 in relation to

00:32:25.120 this role of scaffolding

00:32:26.480 the child

00:32:27.100 into the world

00:32:28.080 beyond the family

00:32:28.660 is building mental

00:32:29.940 and physical resilience

00:32:30.840 dads are the parent

00:32:32.640 for resilience building

00:32:33.900 mums do it

00:32:35.200 but not to the same extent

00:32:36.320 that dads do it

00:32:37.040 and so this is the first

00:32:38.220 example of

00:32:38.980 this is going to be challenging

00:32:40.100 this is going to be

00:32:40.680 a little bit risky

00:32:41.400 this way of play

00:32:42.300 and I'm going to help you

00:32:43.660 to learn how to deal

00:32:44.620 with challenge

00:32:45.200 and not give up

00:32:46.340 as soon as life

00:32:47.020 gets difficult

00:32:47.580 for example

00:32:48.060 so it's a really

00:32:49.680 incredibly important

00:32:51.020 and actually quite

00:32:52.000 underestimated behaviour

00:32:53.660 and when dads

00:32:54.780 come to me

00:32:55.360 when I give talks

00:32:56.480 and say

00:32:57.080 you know

00:32:57.940 what's the one thing

00:32:58.960 I can do

00:32:59.600 I say

00:33:00.160 play

00:33:00.940 play with your child

00:33:01.800 because

00:33:02.420 if you can rough

00:33:03.300 and tumble play

00:33:03.800 not every dad's

00:33:04.560 comfortable with it

00:33:05.240 most are

00:33:05.760 but not all

00:33:06.220 but play with your child

00:33:07.800 because it's

00:33:08.360 unbelievably important

00:33:09.500 okay so the rough housing

00:33:11.180 that's going to help you

00:33:11.860 build a bond

00:33:12.340 with your child

00:33:12.760 all those endorphins

00:33:13.300 really really effective

00:33:14.020 because it releases

00:33:14.900 so touch

00:33:15.900 is the major releaser

00:33:17.100 of bonding hormones

00:33:18.540 there's a lot of touch

00:33:19.620 involved

00:33:19.980 exercise and physicality

00:33:21.580 releases beta endorphin

00:33:22.600 which is the hormone

00:33:23.580 of long-term love

00:33:24.480 laughter releases

00:33:25.760 beta endorphin

00:33:26.660 so all of these things

00:33:27.960 all come out

00:33:28.820 in rough and tumble play

00:33:29.640 so you're getting

00:33:30.220 this like triple whammy

00:33:31.480 of bonding hormones

00:33:32.720 so it's a very powerful

00:33:33.860 way of doing it

00:33:34.700 yeah and that idea

00:33:36.060 that rough housing

00:33:36.620 can help develop

00:33:37.620 social development

00:33:38.520 I've seen that

00:33:39.220 in my own kids

00:33:40.020 when I rough housed

00:33:41.160 with them

00:33:41.560 when they were younger

00:33:42.280 yeah you're teaching them

00:33:44.080 like how to read

00:33:45.960 and like how to know

00:33:46.940 when they've taken

00:33:47.360 things too far

00:33:48.020 and you might

00:33:48.460 when they you know

00:33:49.260 maybe they do something

00:33:50.460 that's a little too

00:33:51.440 too serious

00:33:52.500 you gotta you kind of

00:33:53.320 you have to like

00:33:53.780 be a little straight

00:33:54.660 hey no that's a little

00:33:55.560 too much

00:33:56.100 and that's a skill

00:33:57.220 you take over

00:33:58.380 into life

00:33:59.580 when you're

00:34:00.120 absolutely

00:34:00.460 you're teaching them

00:34:01.760 how to read other people

00:34:02.980 and how to know

00:34:04.160 about that social

00:34:05.040 give and take

00:34:05.700 about how to do it

00:34:07.140 in a way that yeah

00:34:08.580 doesn't take things

00:34:09.440 too far

00:34:09.920 and doesn't upset

00:34:10.640 other people

00:34:11.280 okay so when a child's born

00:34:13.120 there's some biological

00:34:14.220 changes that are going

00:34:14.920 to happen

00:34:15.240 and a man's going

00:34:15.760 to affect their

00:34:16.140 psychology as well

00:34:17.420 but you also talk

00:34:18.680 about how a father's

00:34:20.460 own upbringing

00:34:21.520 influences how

00:34:23.420 they'll parent

00:34:24.020 what does that

00:34:24.480 research say

00:34:25.100 yeah it really does

00:34:27.120 and you know

00:34:28.180 we know this from men

00:34:29.300 who for example

00:34:29.800 haven't had fathers

00:34:31.260 in their life

00:34:32.160 going back

00:34:32.580 so fathering

00:34:33.840 is actually

00:34:34.340 less hereditary

00:34:35.720 than mothering is

00:34:36.600 in terms of genetic

00:34:37.640 heritability

00:34:38.980 so fathers are very

00:34:40.340 influenced by

00:34:41.100 what they see

00:34:41.840 around them

00:34:42.320 in terms of

00:34:43.160 what they grew up

00:34:44.400 with

00:34:44.640 and certainly

00:34:46.240 I've had fathers

00:34:46.940 on my studies

00:34:47.620 who if they

00:34:48.480 haven't had an

00:34:49.220 example of fathering

00:34:50.140 do really really

00:34:51.000 struggle

00:34:51.340 they don't quite

00:34:52.040 know what to do

00:34:52.740 so we know

00:34:54.420 very much

00:34:54.960 that the parenting

00:34:55.800 crosses generations

00:34:57.120 and certainly

00:34:58.300 you get a lot

00:34:59.060 of ideas

00:34:59.560 about how you're

00:35:00.720 going to be

00:35:00.980 as a father

00:35:01.440 from your father

00:35:02.260 sometimes in

00:35:03.360 opposition to your

00:35:04.160 father quite often

00:35:04.980 I will say

00:35:05.740 to dads

00:35:06.820 what kind of father

00:35:08.080 do you think

00:35:08.560 you want to be

00:35:09.920 or that you are

00:35:10.920 and they will say

00:35:11.700 I want to be

00:35:12.760 exactly the opposite

00:35:13.920 to my father

00:35:14.520 for example

00:35:15.560 so they will father

00:35:16.500 in opposition

00:35:17.180 to the example

00:35:18.060 they were given

00:35:18.600 or others

00:35:19.500 will say

00:35:19.820 you know

00:35:20.080 my dad

00:35:20.620 was amazing

00:35:21.200 you know

00:35:21.660 I want to be

00:35:22.240 like my dad

00:35:22.880 so it is a

00:35:24.280 major influence

00:35:24.840 because there's

00:35:25.460 much less

00:35:26.160 genetic heritability

00:35:27.160 of fathering

00:35:27.760 behavior than

00:35:28.300 there is of

00:35:28.640 mothering

00:35:29.020 so it sounds

00:35:30.460 like if you're

00:35:31.040 a dad

00:35:31.380 and maybe

00:35:31.780 you had a

00:35:32.240 bad relationship

00:35:33.320 with your

00:35:33.780 own father

00:35:34.360 you're not

00:35:35.400 destined to

00:35:36.100 repeat that

00:35:36.540 absolutely not

00:35:37.380 absolutely not

00:35:38.480 no you really

00:35:39.160 really aren't

00:35:39.480 and particularly

00:35:39.900 if you recognize

00:35:40.700 it you're

00:35:41.520 already halfway

00:35:42.200 there to be

00:35:43.040 honest

00:35:43.320 and what I always

00:35:44.160 say to those

00:35:44.620 men is

00:35:45.060 okay you know

00:35:46.240 your dad either

00:35:46.840 wasn't there

00:35:47.400 or he wasn't

00:35:48.020 a good role

00:35:48.400 model for you

00:35:48.860 but just think

00:35:49.500 about you know

00:35:50.480 your friends

00:35:51.200 fathers or

00:35:51.980 maybe uncles

00:35:52.900 or grandfathers

00:35:53.660 or even teachers

00:35:54.440 or who were

00:35:55.220 the men in

00:35:55.680 your life

00:35:56.100 growing up

00:35:56.740 who you

00:35:57.340 looked up

00:35:57.800 to and

00:35:59.320 take it from

00:36:00.340 them who

00:36:01.560 you want to

00:36:01.980 be

00:36:02.200 yeah we

00:36:02.900 wrote an

00:36:03.300 article several

00:36:04.160 years ago

00:36:04.780 about being a

00:36:06.260 transitional character

00:36:08.260 in your family

00:36:09.000 this came from

00:36:10.580 a marriage and

00:36:11.440 relationship scholar

00:36:12.620 Carl Fred

00:36:13.540 Broderick

00:36:14.240 describes these

00:36:15.920 transitional characters

00:36:16.840 where you know

00:36:17.820 maybe you came

00:36:18.240 from a family

00:36:18.840 it was just

00:36:19.380 broken and

00:36:20.200 there's a lot

00:36:20.500 of problems

00:36:21.060 you can

00:36:21.960 intentionally

00:36:22.340 change that

00:36:22.820 and they've

00:36:23.020 done research

00:36:23.420 like there's

00:36:23.840 people in

00:36:24.740 any lineage

00:36:25.600 where things

00:36:26.380 were going

00:36:26.640 this way

00:36:27.040 that's because

00:36:27.380 that's how

00:36:27.680 everyone did

00:36:28.780 family but

00:36:29.700 then someone

00:36:29.980 decided I'm

00:36:30.460 not going to

00:36:30.780 do that anymore

00:36:31.340 I'm going to

00:36:31.660 do something

00:36:31.900 different

00:36:32.300 absolutely

00:36:33.040 and you can

00:36:33.640 be that

00:36:33.920 person and

00:36:34.420 as I said

00:36:34.880 you know

00:36:35.140 if you're

00:36:35.460 conscious of

00:36:36.120 it then you're

00:36:36.940 virtually halfway

00:36:37.720 there already

00:36:38.380 because you've

00:36:39.140 acknowledged it

00:36:39.740 and you know

00:36:40.440 that that's not

00:36:41.400 what you want to

00:36:41.920 be

00:36:42.160 so let's talk

00:36:43.220 about personality

00:36:43.820 personality is

00:36:44.820 partly genetic

00:36:46.180 a lot of it's

00:36:47.100 genetic

00:36:47.420 how does a man's

00:36:48.680 personality influence

00:36:49.860 his parenting

00:36:50.500 style

00:36:50.920 it really does

00:36:52.340 depend actually

00:36:53.160 so we know

00:36:54.360 for example

00:36:54.860 that people who

00:36:55.660 are much more

00:36:57.020 open obviously

00:36:58.480 deal with being

00:36:59.880 I mean moms and

00:37:00.840 dads deal with

00:37:01.500 being parents much

00:37:02.400 more easily if you

00:37:02.900 kind of have an

00:37:03.520 open personality

00:37:04.200 type because you

00:37:04.920 are willing to

00:37:06.200 be a little bit

00:37:07.240 more relaxed about

00:37:07.980 it if you're more

00:37:08.920 on sort of the

00:37:09.320 neurotic end of

00:37:10.080 things then it can

00:37:10.780 be very very

00:37:11.300 difficult and

00:37:11.800 certainly our

00:37:12.180 personalities

00:37:12.700 affect how we

00:37:13.800 perceive a

00:37:14.880 situation so you

00:37:16.420 know if you have

00:37:16.800 an open personality

00:37:17.780 then you maybe

00:37:21.000 you've got a

00:37:21.500 screaming toddler

00:37:22.080 in a high chair

00:37:22.860 who won't put

00:37:23.380 their shoes on

00:37:23.940 and is chucking

00:37:24.600 their food

00:37:24.940 everywhere you

00:37:26.020 might be able to

00:37:26.740 perceive that as

00:37:27.420 not quite so

00:37:28.100 catastrophic as

00:37:28.760 someone for

00:37:29.060 example who's

00:37:29.600 from the neurotic

00:37:30.420 end of personality

00:37:31.640 so personality

00:37:32.200 does affect it

00:37:33.060 it's not a

00:37:33.820 really really big

00:37:34.680 effector actually

00:37:35.540 but it is

00:37:36.460 something that

00:37:36.940 comes into

00:37:37.700 some of the

00:37:39.100 ways that people

00:37:39.620 perceive things

00:37:40.200 certainly I found

00:37:40.760 that particularly

00:37:41.140 for example

00:37:41.560 around childbirth

00:37:42.360 so I've had

00:37:43.020 fathers who

00:37:43.720 objectively have

00:37:45.560 actually had very

00:37:46.240 easy childbirths

00:37:47.560 but for them

00:37:48.660 it was a very

00:37:49.360 traumatic experience

00:37:50.560 whereas I've had

00:37:51.560 men who again

00:37:52.400 have objectively

00:37:53.020 had the most

00:37:53.600 awful experience

00:37:54.260 of childbirth

00:37:54.760 and actually

00:37:55.300 are just like

00:37:56.080 well we were

00:37:56.840 in the right

00:37:57.200 place

00:37:57.620 we had the

00:37:58.500 right people

00:37:58.820 around us

00:37:59.320 it all turned

00:37:59.800 out fine

00:38:00.200 I'm fine

00:38:00.960 and so actually

00:38:02.140 I always think

00:38:03.160 with parenting

00:38:03.820 in general

00:38:04.400 you have to be

00:38:05.000 very open to

00:38:05.720 how people

00:38:06.080 perceive things

00:38:06.920 because we

00:38:07.820 might look in

00:38:08.260 from the outside

00:38:08.760 and go

00:38:09.000 well that's

00:38:09.400 fine

00:38:09.780 but your

00:38:10.880 personality

00:38:11.560 your life

00:38:12.100 experience

00:38:12.440 is going to

00:38:12.820 affect actually

00:38:13.360 how you deal

00:38:13.980 with something

00:38:14.240 so we should

00:38:14.860 never impose

00:38:16.140 our own ideas

00:38:17.120 about whether

00:38:17.500 something's easy

00:38:18.140 difficult

00:38:18.600 whatever

00:38:19.140 onto somebody

00:38:20.240 any advice

00:38:22.420 or anything

00:38:23.240 the research

00:38:23.760 says about

00:38:24.180 what if

00:38:24.560 you're a dad

00:38:25.060 who kind

00:38:25.880 of goes

00:38:26.500 over to

00:38:26.720 that neurotic

00:38:27.220 side

00:38:27.660 can you do

00:38:28.520 anything

00:38:28.780 to tamper

00:38:30.120 that down

00:38:30.580 it's yeah

00:38:31.760 I mean I think

00:38:32.360 it's hard

00:38:33.300 because if you

00:38:33.780 have that

00:38:34.180 personality type

00:38:34.900 it's quite

00:38:35.320 hard to step

00:38:36.320 back from it

00:38:37.140 what I would

00:38:38.220 say is

00:38:38.920 and in a way

00:38:39.800 childbirth

00:38:40.380 and having

00:38:40.680 children is the

00:38:41.320 ultimate test

00:38:42.020 if you are

00:38:42.480 at the neurotic

00:38:43.000 end of things

00:38:43.500 because nothing

00:38:44.420 is predictable

00:38:45.060 literally nothing

00:38:46.500 is predictable

00:38:46.980 you know you

00:38:47.400 don't know

00:38:47.860 what's going

00:38:48.240 to happen

00:38:48.500 with the birth

00:38:48.920 I mean

00:38:49.180 here in the UK

00:38:50.120 you're made

00:38:50.600 it's hysterical

00:38:51.460 you're made

00:38:51.760 to write out

00:38:52.220 a birth plan

00:38:52.900 of what you

00:38:53.300 would like

00:38:53.720 to happen

00:38:54.180 you know

00:38:54.420 so I don't

00:38:54.780 want any drugs

00:38:55.460 and I'd like

00:38:55.780 to be in the

00:38:56.060 birthing pool

00:38:56.500 and I'd like

00:38:56.820 this piece

00:38:57.100 of music

00:38:57.380 playing

00:38:57.680 and quite

00:38:58.340 often that

00:38:58.620 just goes

00:38:58.860 straight out

00:38:59.280 the window

00:38:59.620 because you

00:39:00.560 you can't

00:39:01.360 predict what's

00:39:01.740 happening

00:39:01.940 and I think

00:39:02.340 it is hard

00:39:03.140 what I would

00:39:04.020 say to people

00:39:04.880 who are at

00:39:05.680 that end of

00:39:06.000 personality

00:39:06.380 is talking

00:39:07.660 is really

00:39:08.140 powerful

00:39:08.620 so if you

00:39:09.800 have concerns

00:39:10.520 if you're

00:39:10.880 feeling worried

00:39:11.540 about what

00:39:11.980 might happen

00:39:12.580 talk to people

00:39:13.920 one of the

00:39:14.720 things that's

00:39:15.100 really important

00:39:15.960 and I think

00:39:16.400 this for all

00:39:16.980 fathers is

00:39:17.640 babies have a

00:39:18.260 tendency to be

00:39:18.840 born at night

00:39:19.580 and particularly

00:39:20.720 if you have

00:39:21.380 struggled

00:39:21.720 particularly with

00:39:22.200 the birth

00:39:22.600 for example

00:39:23.140 have someone

00:39:24.660 who you can

00:39:25.540 call even at

00:39:26.500 two o'clock in

00:39:27.060 the morning

00:39:27.480 to talk to

00:39:28.780 about it

00:39:29.420 so have them

00:39:30.200 lined up

00:39:30.780 ready

00:39:31.100 and know that

00:39:31.960 you're not

00:39:32.240 disturbing them

00:39:32.840 they will be

00:39:33.220 perfectly happy

00:39:33.680 to be woken

00:39:34.140 up and talked

00:39:34.680 to because I

00:39:35.160 think that is

00:39:36.200 one of the

00:39:36.520 toughest times

00:39:37.200 is walking

00:39:38.060 out into the

00:39:38.480 car park

00:39:39.020 at the hospital

00:39:39.660 on your own

00:39:40.840 two o'clock in

00:39:41.580 the morning

00:39:41.860 this amazing

00:39:42.740 thing has just

00:39:43.260 happened but you

00:39:43.840 might have found

00:39:44.360 it very difficult

00:39:44.960 and you've got

00:39:45.680 literally nobody

00:39:46.420 to talk to

00:39:46.960 about it

00:39:47.400 so I think

00:39:48.260 that's really

00:39:48.640 important

00:39:49.060 some of the

00:39:49.900 interesting research

00:39:50.620 in your book

00:39:51.480 was how mom

00:39:53.480 and dads

00:39:53.980 differ in how

00:39:55.520 they view the

00:39:56.200 family and the

00:39:57.100 relationships that

00:39:57.780 constitute the

00:39:58.340 family he walks

00:39:59.040 through that

00:39:59.280 research

00:39:59.640 yeah it's really

00:40:01.200 interesting because

00:40:01.840 moms and dads

00:40:02.660 view how the

00:40:03.900 family network

00:40:05.380 is built in a

00:40:06.120 very different

00:40:06.640 way so moms

00:40:08.220 tend to look at

00:40:09.080 families as a

00:40:10.020 set of dyadic

00:40:11.000 relationships

00:40:11.740 independent

00:40:12.260 dyadic

00:40:12.600 relationships so

00:40:13.160 mom and child

00:40:13.820 mom and child

00:40:14.380 two mom and

00:40:14.980 father for

00:40:15.420 example whereas

00:40:16.440 fathers look at

00:40:17.760 it from a sort

00:40:18.940 of top-down

00:40:19.620 view so let's

00:40:20.260 say there's you

00:40:21.220 your partner and

00:40:21.920 a baby so they

00:40:22.540 look at it in the

00:40:23.320 triad and it's a

00:40:24.700 triadic view so

00:40:26.200 what tends to

00:40:27.120 happen is dads

00:40:28.120 are much more

00:40:29.180 affected by

00:40:31.240 conflict between

00:40:32.860 mom and dad in

00:40:34.620 terms of their

00:40:35.100 relationship with

00:40:35.700 their baby than

00:40:36.240 moms are if mom

00:40:37.140 and dad are

00:40:37.520 arguing a mom

00:40:38.420 because she sees

00:40:39.140 the family as a

00:40:39.860 load of dyads can

00:40:40.980 separate that from

00:40:42.440 the relationship she

00:40:43.120 has with her baby

00:40:43.880 it will not affect

00:40:44.680 the relationship

00:40:45.200 she has with her

00:40:45.860 baby for fathers

00:40:47.120 if dad and mom

00:40:48.340 are arguing because

00:40:49.780 he sees it in this

00:40:50.580 triadic way it will

00:40:52.220 affect the

00:40:53.160 relationship he has

00:40:53.880 with his baby and

00:40:55.220 that's why we have

00:40:56.520 to understand that

00:40:57.120 different view and

00:40:57.700 we find actually

00:40:58.400 generally that

00:40:59.020 fathers are much

00:40:59.860 more impacted by

00:41:01.520 the quality of their

00:41:02.980 relationship with

00:41:03.540 their partner in

00:41:04.200 terms of family

00:41:04.800 functioning in

00:41:05.760 terms of their

00:41:06.200 mental health than

00:41:07.700 mothers are so the

00:41:09.120 actual relationship and

00:41:10.240 the state of the

00:41:10.980 relationship is

00:41:11.500 actually critical to

00:41:12.400 a father in terms

00:41:13.160 of how well he

00:41:13.700 transitions to being

00:41:14.620 a father how good

00:41:15.720 his mental health

00:41:16.460 is how well he

00:41:17.560 builds a bond with

00:41:18.180 his child yeah you

00:41:19.820 right here and

00:41:20.540 while families are

00:41:21.440 made up of their

00:41:22.020 constituent relationships

00:41:23.140 the ability to

00:41:24.580 picture them as a

00:41:25.200 whole organism as

00:41:26.380 well as individuals

00:41:27.220 and couples enables

00:41:28.840 fathers to have the

00:41:29.660 strength to confront

00:41:30.600 the difficulties that

00:41:31.620 will inevitably

00:41:32.080 challenge them as

00:41:32.920 they move through

00:41:33.400 life yeah because

00:41:34.840 they see the whole

00:41:35.720 picture essentially

00:41:37.000 and that is how

00:41:37.740 families operate

00:41:38.360 families don't

00:41:38.920 operate in isolation

00:41:39.960 of dyads they

00:41:40.760 operate as a very

00:41:41.680 you know fluid but

00:41:43.900 cohesive system where

00:41:45.020 everybody impacts

00:41:45.880 everybody else

00:41:46.560 so how do these

00:41:47.940 differences work

00:41:48.480 together so how

00:41:49.100 does like the

00:41:49.800 system view of a

00:41:50.740 family and the

00:41:51.800 didactic relationship

00:41:52.860 do they work

00:41:53.820 together or do

00:41:54.440 they work against

00:41:55.020 each other against

00:41:56.240 cross currents

00:41:57.080 it's it's

00:41:58.380 interesting obviously

00:41:59.280 as long as the

00:41:59.740 relationship with the

00:42:00.440 mother is healthy

00:42:01.120 everything is fine

00:42:02.020 what it the problem

00:42:03.320 comes when there's

00:42:04.060 conflict and then no

00:42:04.960 they work against

00:42:05.780 because you've got

00:42:07.080 one system with the

00:42:08.040 mother where it's

00:42:09.440 not affecting her

00:42:10.240 relationship with the

00:42:10.880 baby so in a way

00:42:11.540 she can go into

00:42:12.560 that relationship

00:42:13.100 the baby and feel

00:42:14.100 protected and safe

00:42:16.180 in that relationship

00:42:17.000 whereas fathers it's

00:42:18.760 going to affect

00:42:19.240 everybody it's going

00:42:20.400 to affect every

00:42:21.000 aspect of his

00:42:21.920 family life and I

00:42:23.740 think that's quite

00:42:24.320 hard sometimes those

00:42:25.560 differences are quite

00:42:26.360 hard to resolve

00:42:27.180 because you've got

00:42:27.660 people who perceive

00:42:28.440 things completely

00:42:29.660 differently and

00:42:31.180 that's one of the

00:42:31.620 and that is why in

00:42:33.480 my book I write a

00:42:34.200 whole chapter on the

00:42:36.100 parenting relationship

00:42:37.020 because actually the

00:42:37.900 parenting relationship

00:42:38.620 is the environment

00:42:39.720 in which that child

00:42:40.600 will develop so we

00:42:41.920 have to make sure

00:42:42.580 that those parents

00:42:43.440 and that relationship

00:42:44.480 is as strong and

00:42:45.240 healthy as it can be

00:42:45.980 before the baby is

00:42:46.960 born and I

00:42:48.120 constantly advocate

00:42:49.240 for antenatal classes

00:42:50.680 to have at least one

00:42:52.300 week on preparing the

00:42:53.800 relationship and

00:42:54.440 explaining that dads

00:42:55.700 see the family in a

00:42:56.460 different way to mums

00:42:57.280 and the fact that

00:42:58.340 actually the relationship

00:42:59.160 with the mother is a

00:43:00.060 major factor in how

00:43:01.320 the dad will father

00:43:02.260 and I think we need to

00:43:04.400 acknowledge that and

00:43:05.300 actually help new

00:43:06.640 families by preparing

00:43:08.360 the parents before

00:43:09.520 the baby is born

00:43:10.280 so yeah they'd be

00:43:11.420 like marital counseling

00:43:12.220 giving advice on how

00:43:12.980 to do conflict

00:43:13.680 resolution

00:43:14.300 absolutely yeah

00:43:15.400 exactly absolutely

00:43:16.780 because and then give

00:43:17.460 them the tools because

00:43:18.120 there's nothing you

00:43:18.980 know having a baby

00:43:19.860 having a young baby

00:43:20.460 is probably the

00:43:22.880 biggest pressure you

00:43:23.840 will ever put on a

00:43:24.720 relationship because it

00:43:26.220 can be so hard and to

00:43:27.840 send couples into that

00:43:29.400 with absolutely no

00:43:30.680 tools at all I think

00:43:32.520 is you know actually

00:43:33.820 pretty neglectful I

00:43:35.040 think it's something

00:43:35.480 that you really should

00:43:36.440 prepare people for

00:43:37.280 and then after birth

00:43:38.840 after the child is

00:43:39.940 born maybe new dads

00:43:41.240 what they need to

00:43:41.720 think about is like

00:43:42.440 keep nurturing that

00:43:43.140 relationship with their

00:43:43.760 wife take them out on

00:43:44.740 dates make sure that's

00:43:45.800 strong and healthy

00:43:46.620 because that's going to

00:43:47.620 carry over to your

00:43:48.200 child as well

00:43:48.940 it completely is and

00:43:49.880 I would say it's not

00:43:50.700 you know I think we

00:43:51.540 need to put that

00:43:52.020 responsibility on both

00:43:53.060 parents to say you

00:43:53.740 know you have to

00:43:54.340 nurture your relationship

00:43:55.260 because as I said

00:43:56.600 that is the nest that

00:43:57.820 your child grows in

00:43:58.880 essentially so you have

00:44:00.380 to nurture it you have

00:44:01.600 to not see it as

00:44:02.580 selfish to say yeah

00:44:03.600 tonight we're going to

00:44:04.380 go out together or

00:44:05.520 you know take up that

00:44:06.440 offer of babysitting from

00:44:07.380 whoever's offered to

00:44:08.000 babysit and do that and

00:44:09.320 go out and and remind

00:44:11.120 each other who you are

00:44:12.220 yeah really I imagine

00:44:13.760 that can be harder for

00:44:14.440 moms because they really

00:44:15.740 take on that identity and

00:44:16.980 they you know a child can

00:44:18.160 just you know really

00:44:18.960 because children are they

00:44:20.580 suck up all your band

00:44:21.320 they can suck up all your

00:44:22.200 band with you if you let

00:44:23.120 them and you will fight

00:44:24.080 you know I mean you've

00:44:25.080 probably have this

00:44:25.520 experience like you go out

00:44:26.500 and you spend your whole

00:44:27.220 two hours talking about

00:44:28.180 your children anyway even

00:44:29.560 though they're not there

00:44:30.180 yeah it is really hard

00:44:33.040 but I think if we can

00:44:33.980 prepare couples during

00:44:35.400 you know there are very

00:44:36.780 few things that you know

00:44:38.500 are going to happen and

00:44:39.580 you know when roughly

00:44:40.580 they're going to happen

00:44:41.320 and having a child is one

00:44:43.320 of them you have like

00:44:43.920 nine months where you

00:44:45.480 know this is going to

00:44:46.360 happen so take that nine

00:44:48.360 months and prepare the

00:44:49.940 relationship to deal with

00:44:51.040 this new member basically

00:44:52.560 and I think if you you

00:44:54.940 already have kids if you

00:44:56.480 know someone who's going

00:44:57.140 to have a kid offer to

00:44:58.120 babysit like that can be

00:44:59.100 one thing you do to help

00:45:00.480 you guys go on a date

00:45:02.260 you guys need to have a

00:45:02.880 night to yourself and

00:45:03.860 even if they don't want

00:45:04.680 to go out say I'll go

00:45:05.960 upstairs with the baby

00:45:07.080 you sit you know in your

00:45:09.100 living room in your

00:45:09.960 kitchen have a you know

00:45:11.480 I don't know have a

00:45:12.240 drink together have a

00:45:12.840 glass of wine whatever

00:45:13.460 and take some time I'm

00:45:15.060 just upstairs the baby

00:45:15.980 is fine so you know if

00:45:17.620 you're a kind of parent

00:45:18.240 who doesn't want to

00:45:18.960 quite leave the baby

00:45:19.560 that's fine but just

00:45:20.160 take some time where you

00:45:21.440 do not have a baby

00:45:22.220 attached to you what do

00:45:24.000 you hope readers walk

00:45:25.160 away thinking after they

00:45:26.360 finish your book I hope

00:45:29.080 they go away kind of

00:45:31.020 busting a few myths they

00:45:32.120 might have had about

00:45:33.140 fathers first of all that

00:45:34.560 fathers are like a

00:45:36.060 secondary parent I really

00:45:37.960 hate that idea that

00:45:39.160 fathers are like the

00:45:40.080 secondary parent he kind

00:45:41.000 of takes over if mom's

00:45:42.060 doing something else I

00:45:43.760 would like them to place

00:45:44.960 dad on the pedestal next

00:45:46.080 to mom because actually

00:45:46.920 human babies who mean

00:45:48.560 children have evolved to

00:45:49.360 need both okay and so

00:45:51.680 that's why dad exists and

00:45:53.740 so I would like them to

00:45:55.000 see father as a true

00:45:56.120 co-parent rather than a

00:45:57.260 secondary carer and I

00:45:59.220 would like them to see

00:46:00.480 that actually both

00:46:01.320 parents are biologically

00:46:02.180 primed with an instinct to

00:46:04.300 do this and so I would

00:46:05.760 like it to be seen like

00:46:06.700 that that fathers are not

00:46:07.740 this useless thing that

00:46:08.840 we can just get rid of

00:46:09.840 that that doesn't really

00:46:10.740 matter if he's around or

00:46:11.560 not that they are a

00:46:12.760 co-parent that they are

00:46:14.000 equal to mom in instinct

00:46:15.180 and that they have a

00:46:17.200 powerful bond to their

00:46:18.800 child which is different

00:46:20.400 to moms but is just as

00:46:22.580 powerful and just as

00:46:23.340 important well Anna this

00:46:25.240 has been a great

00:46:25.640 conversation where can

00:46:26.560 people go to learn more

00:46:27.300 about the book in your

00:46:27.960 work well there's lots on

00:46:29.600 my website which is

00:46:30.940 annamachin.com I'm also

00:46:32.440 on Twitter and Instagram

00:46:33.920 at dr amachin so there's

00:46:36.320 lots of like videos and

00:46:37.940 and things on there

00:46:38.820 fantastic well Anna

00:46:39.800 Machen thanks for time

00:46:40.440 it's been a pleasure

00:46:40.920 thank you

00:46:41.860 my guest here is Anna

00:46:43.480 Machen she's the author

00:46:44.380 of the book life of dad

00:46:45.540 it's available on

00:46:46.120 amazon.com you can find

00:46:47.440 more information about

00:46:48.020 our work at our website

00:46:48.820 annamachin.com also check

00:46:50.800 out our show notes at

00:46:51.360 awim.is slash life of dad

00:46:53.140 where you find links to

00:46:53.900 resources we delve deeper

00:46:55.000 into this topic

00:46:55.940 well that wraps up

00:47:03.960 another edition of the

00:47:04.920 AOM podcast make sure

00:47:06.080 to check out our website

00:47:06.800 at artofmanly.com where

00:47:08.020 you find our podcast

00:47:08.740 archives as well as

00:47:10.020 thousands of articles

00:47:10.680 that we've written over

00:47:11.320 the years about pretty

00:47:11.980 much anything you think

00:47:12.840 of and if you haven't

00:47:14.040 done so already I'd

00:47:14.680 appreciate if you take

00:47:15.340 one minute to give us

00:47:16.080 review on the podcast or

00:47:16.980 Spotify it helps that a

00:47:17.960 lot and if you've done

00:47:18.660 that already thank you

00:47:19.620 please consider sharing

00:47:20.840 the show with a friend or

00:47:21.580 family member who would

00:47:22.380 think we need something out

00:47:23.040 of it as always thank you

00:47:24.780 for the continued support

00:47:25.540 and until next time it's

00:47:26.340 Brett McKay reminding you

00:47:27.580 to listen to the AOM

00:47:28.080 podcast but put what

00:47:29.440 you've heard into action

The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

Dad's Essential Role in Making Kids Awesome

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