The Art of Manliness - Dante's Guide to Navigating a Spiritual Journey

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast

00:00:11.120 dante's divine comedy is considered one of the greatest works of literature ever written

00:00:15.400 the poem not only imagines the three parts of the afterlife but serves as an allegory for

00:00:20.100 the spiritual journey of the human soul here to take us on a tour of the journey dante describes

00:00:24.520 is robert baron a bishop in the catholic church today on the show bishop baron offers a bit of

00:00:29.600 background on the divine comedy and how it resonates as a story of the search for greater

00:00:33.940 meaning that commonly arises in your mid-30s we then delve into dante's journey through inferno

00:00:38.860 purgatorio and paradisio we discuss why dante can't initially climb the redemptive mountain of

00:00:44.020 purgatory and has to go through hell first the importance of having a tough but encouraging

00:00:47.740 guide for any spiritual journey why hell is an inverted cone that gets narrower and colder at

00:00:52.260 the bottom and why traders inhabit the lowest layer we then get into what it takes to climb

00:00:56.880 mount purgatory why heaven and the divine comedy doesn't get much attention and what dante finds

00:01:01.680 when he gets there along the way bishop baron describes the meaning behind the religious imagery

00:01:06.360 dante used in his poem as well as insights that can be applied to any spiritual journey after the

00:01:11.780 show's over check out our show notes at aom.is slash dante

00:01:14.780 all right bishop robert baron welcome to the show thank you great to be great to be with you thanks

00:01:35.500 so you are a catholic bishop but you're also a really busy man you've done all sorts of stuff you

00:01:40.620 founded an organization called word on fire where you're putting out tons of content interviews with

00:01:45.060 public figures you did a documentary on catholicism for pbs you're a religion correspondent for nbc you

00:01:52.020 speak to corporations around the world about religion the reason i brought you on because you put out a

00:01:58.040 course on word on fire about one of my favorite books of all time and that's dante's the divine

00:02:05.220 comedy most of us if you lived in america or in the west you probably read excerpts of the inferno

00:02:11.360 maybe in a high school english class i'm curious when did you discover dante's divine comedy and how

00:02:18.040 did it change you yeah i could tell you exactly when it was it was the summer of 1990 and i was in

00:02:25.120 germany i was doing my doctoral work over in europe and and that summer i went to germany to study german

00:02:31.040 and so all day long i was just you know reading writing speaking and listening to german so i brought

00:02:37.220 with me from paris where i lived i think it was just the inferno just the volume one of dante i had

00:02:43.200 never read dante at that point i thought you know i'm just gonna i'm just gonna read this so after a

00:02:47.600 long day of german study i remember going back to my little it was like a little crummy college dorm

00:02:52.860 room they had me living in and i had this this small paperback of the inferno and i started reading

00:02:59.560 it and it was to me at that point in my life i don't know why exactly but i read it like a novel

00:03:05.840 it was just so engaging and the notes in the edition i had were so good that it just drew me

00:03:11.240 into the the narrative and everything so i i loved it from that moment and then you're right in

00:03:17.800 suggesting that it had a big impact on my life i think almost every book i've written has some

00:03:23.640 reference to dante in it maybe not every talk i give but a lot of them would have a reference to

00:03:28.900 dante he's one of those people that at the same time a great literary master obviously but

00:03:33.920 he's a spiritual master and t.s elliott said you know western literature is basically divided between

00:03:39.820 two people shakespeare and dante if that's true that one of the two greatest writers in the western

00:03:46.020 tradition wrote basically about the christian spiritual life so i think that's rather extraordinary

00:03:51.880 and i found him to be indeed one of the great masters so that's how i found him and that's that's

00:03:57.020 kind of in general what he's meant to me yeah for me i i remember reading a bit of it

00:04:01.520 in high school english an excerpt but then when i was around i think i was like 35 years old which is

00:04:06.960 interesting so we'll talk about this because this has an important reference in the inferno i i read

00:04:12.600 the whole thing and i remember just being like this is great i can't believe a medieval guy wrote this

00:04:17.500 and i'm constantly thinking about things i'll have an experience in my life and like oh that reminds me

00:04:22.500 of something from dante oh absolutely it's archetypal you know and once you get into that

00:04:27.040 story you recognize yourself in it and as you suggested there it's for people going through a

00:04:32.540 midlife crisis and all of us do to some degree dante in many ways is the man to read it's it's how to

00:04:39.160 how to handle yourself during that time of crisis i mean what what do you do what don't you do

00:04:45.520 what's the right spiritual program or psychological program dante illumines all that well let's talk a bit

00:04:51.880 about dante in his life because i think it shapes you know helps us understand what he was trying to

00:04:56.140 do with the divine comedy so uh tell us about dante when was he alive what was his life like

00:05:00.440 yeah well he was born in 1265 so he's born kind of at the height of the high middle ages so

00:05:06.560 when he's born thomas aquinas is writing bonaventure is writing the great cathedrals are going up

00:05:11.880 so he's there at the height of the best of medieval culture and i would put him in that mix when people

00:05:18.940 ask about the middle ages i'll say look at shark cathedral read the summa of aquinas and read the

00:05:24.640 the commedia of dante and you'll see what that culture was about so he was kind of born into the

00:05:30.440 best of that period born 1265 in florence and he's a he's a florentine in his bones you know some people

00:05:38.160 are just identified with the city of their birth and and he was like that he gets involved he's a

00:05:43.720 intellectual obviously he's trained in philosophy and poetry and so on but he's also a practical man

00:05:50.780 of politics and he gets involved in the very rough and tumble politics of that time roughly speaking

00:05:58.240 the italian city states like florence were kind of divided between pressure from the north from the

00:06:03.680 german emperor and then from the south the pope and they were siding with one or the other and that's

00:06:08.600 kind of where the politics broke well dante finds himself around midlife on the wrong side of one

00:06:15.000 of these fights and without going into every detail he gets exiled from his hometown and it just broke

00:06:21.800 his heart into a thousand pieces he was a man of florence and to be told you can never come back

00:06:28.100 practically destroyed him and it's true he never came back he never returned home he begins to write

00:06:35.360 the divine comedy his great masterpiece during those years of those early years of exile so it's a book

00:06:42.700 written by an exile for people who often feel themselves in a kind of spiritual exile anyway he

00:06:50.900 wanders those latter decades of his life around different italian cities he dies in ravenna and

00:06:56.700 that's where he's buried there was a move to have his body brought back to florence and his people said

00:07:01.920 no no no you rejected him in life you won't get him in death so he's still there and i i remember

00:07:06.920 oh this is maybe 10 years ago we were filming in ravenna and we made a pilgrimage to dante's grave

00:07:12.460 which i found very moving so he died in i believe it's 1321 or 23 one of the two so early 14th century

00:07:20.440 he died and what's interesting of course is he's born 1265 so when he's 35 which would have been seen as

00:07:28.700 midlife in the middle ages that's the year 1300 and that's when the divine comedy is set in addition

00:07:35.560 to getting exiled from florence and that had that basically caused him to write the inferno or the

00:07:41.300 divine comedy another there's another person in his life who's actually a character in the book and

00:07:45.880 this this character named beatrice tell us about beatrice who was she well it's fascinating not his

00:07:51.400 wife he was married to a woman named gemma and had a number of children with her but he makes almost

00:07:57.360 no reference to his wife in his writings but when he was just a kid this kid roughly his age

00:08:04.320 beatrice he sees her and it's typical of the middle ages in that kind of chivalric context that he he

00:08:12.260 just was smitten he was struck by her by her beauty but also by her personality her spirit and then many

00:08:21.460 years later he sees her again and they exchange a glance and a couple of words but that's enough

00:08:27.660 to make him say i'm going to write the most beautiful poem ever written about you so and of

00:08:36.020 course he did that's this amazing thing is you know i could say that you could say that but we don't have

00:08:40.780 the the creative power to do it he did and he said i'm going to write the most beautiful poem ever

00:08:46.560 written and that's the commedia that's the divine comedy is in a way all about her but because it's

00:08:53.740 about her whom he loved with the deepest part of his soul it's by the same token about god and that

00:09:01.780 tells you a lot about his mentality and the mentality of the middle ages you know that through a beautiful

00:09:07.940 creature i can come to knowledge of the ever more beautiful creator so that's the role that beatrice

00:09:15.200 plays in the writing of it she's also as you say a character in the poem and that's a very

00:09:21.440 interesting role she plays there yeah this idea that romantic love can lead to love of god and that's

00:09:28.120 a platonic idea right like that yeah talks about in the symposium right erotic love can eventually lead 0.97

00:09:33.040 you to loving the good yeah it's called the diotima speech it's a woman around the table as socrates 1.00

00:09:39.680 and his friends are talking about love and wisdom and so on and she makes an observation that's picked

00:09:45.600 up by some of the greatest spirits in the west namely by beginning with the particular beautiful

00:09:50.300 thing or person or event you can move by a steady series of steps finally to the source of all goodness

00:09:59.520 the source of all beauty you can see this echoed in dante you also see it echoed in james joyce

00:10:04.720 pick up a portrait of the artist as a young man his great autobiographical novel and there's a scene

00:10:10.140 out of that book that's right out of the diotima speech and about dante so let's talk about the

00:10:16.560 structure big picture structure of the divine comedy because the book is it's it's fantastical it's almost

00:10:22.760 it's like a fantasy novel but it's highly organized and highly structured if you look at it the right way

00:10:29.400 in fact it's been compared to a medieval cathedral yeah why is that i say for several reasons if you

00:10:35.620 go to the medieval cathedrals like a charter notre dame in paris or rheims or amiens the great ones

00:10:40.520 there's a kind of here comes everybody or here comes everything quality about them in the cathedrals

00:10:46.880 you can find planets and plants and animals and people obviously and angels and god and the blessed

00:10:53.800 mother and like the whole universe gargoyles etc the good the bad the ugly it's all there there's

00:11:01.460 something of that in the divine comedy there's a line i remember from a hero of mine kenneth clark who

00:11:07.760 is uh the great art historian that was behind that series called civilization and in the course of that

00:11:14.160 when he says in his plummy accent is there sensuality in dante and he says of course there is there's

00:11:21.180 everything in dante you know and it's it's a good observation that like the cathedrals there's an

00:11:26.420 everything quality it's all there but secondly as you suggest correctly the architectonic structure of

00:11:34.060 it is very much like a cathedral so the cathedrals were were balanced and symmetrical and ordered

00:11:40.900 and usually around the number three you look at the three levels let's say of the facade at notre

00:11:46.780 damme the three portals you know the three entrances etc the whole building is kind of

00:11:51.960 predicated upon the number three and for obvious reasons because god is three persons same with the 0.90

00:11:57.560 divine comedy three major sections the inferno the purgatorio and the paradiso but then each of those

00:12:04.560 is subdivided into 33 cantos or divisions and then the cantos are displayed according to what is called

00:12:12.640 terza rima or third rhyme it's a particular rhyming pattern the point there is in the architecture of

00:12:19.740 the poem the number three is consistently ingredient and for obvious reasons because if you want to get

00:12:27.360 out of the dark night that he's in you've got to be trinitized you've got to be brought into the life

00:12:34.000 of the trinity so the the order and the harmony the internal integrity of the poem is very much like a

00:12:41.040 cathedral all right so let's dig into the divine comedy and what i'd like to do sort of organize

00:12:45.980 this i think dante we're gonna make dante our guide for our spiritual journey in life like he goes

00:12:52.000 through a spiritual journey i think we can look to him on how what we can learn about that so the poem

00:12:56.500 starts off with the inferno so this is this trip to hell and the opening lines we kind of alluded to

00:13:01.360 them are this he said midway in the journey of our life that's funny he didn't say my life he said our

00:13:07.680 life i found myself in the midst of a dark wood and the true way was lost why does dante begin his

00:13:14.480 poem like this so important isn't it many people at midlife go through a time like that first half

00:13:22.160 of life when you're seeking you know relationship and marriage and your kids and your career and your

00:13:27.960 house and and you're on a certain path and you're finding great joy in that accomplishment

00:13:32.200 something tends to happen at midlife and you know jung the psychologist who loved dante

00:13:38.580 took 35 as the midlife number you know it's not 50 it's more like 35 what often happens is the

00:13:48.060 things that got you going in the first half of your life the things that gave you joy and purpose

00:13:53.600 are suddenly kind of taken away from you and you feel lost and arid and depressed and what what am i

00:14:01.200 about what am i supposed to do so that's where the story begins midway and it's the journey of his

00:14:07.200 life because as i say in the year 1300 he's 35 but by saying are you're right he's trying to draw

00:14:13.300 everybody into it to say my story i do think is your story too so midway on our life's journey we tend

00:14:21.880 to find ourselves kind of lost i bet i bet a lot of people listening to the two of us right now will

00:14:26.820 identify with that i found in my years doing pastoral ministry is very often people at that age

00:14:34.520 like 35 or so would come with difficulties and problems and depressions and do you remember i just

00:14:42.380 saw it recently that old movie with billy crystal and jack palance you know the city slickers remember

00:14:47.720 that right yeah they're out there and you know billy's going through a midlife crisis and and jack

00:14:52.220 palance is kind of his wisdom like his virgil figure and at one point he goes how old are you

00:14:57.180 and he said i'm 38 i think he said and he goes yeah yeah they all come at the same time and and that's

00:15:03.140 just old spiritual wisdom that often at that age see what's what's happening is the first half of your

00:15:09.480 life you found success and dante did you know had his family and his and his wife and his career and all

00:15:14.980 that but then see we're not meant just for that and so it's you you have to be sort of weaned off

00:15:21.460 of the things that obsessed you in the first half of life to to get now into a deeper place but that's

00:15:27.780 painful invariably and that's how the story begins and he talks about how he got lost was he fell asleep

00:15:34.980 and he's talking he says he says the true way was lost so he's insinuating that he had the true way at

00:15:40.400 one point but he fell asleep and then he lost it i think that i mean if i look at my own life i just

00:15:45.340 turned 40 not too long ago and part of that i read my old journals from like the the first 20 years of

00:15:51.240 my adulthood and when i as i read those journal entries and i was 19 20 my early 20s i was struck

00:15:58.220 by how earnest and idealistic i was like i've got these ideals i'm aiming for and then as i got older

00:16:05.140 my journal sort of shifted to complaining about you know carping about the day-to-day of life

00:16:09.740 and maybe that's what happened like he maybe i think all of us have those ideals but then just

00:16:13.860 because of the day-to-day we forget what what's really important in life yeah i think that's a

00:16:18.720 legitimate way to to get at it and maybe it was dante being so caught up in the politics of his

00:16:23.960 hometown that he lost you know his love for philosophy and theology and all that maybe it was compromised

00:16:30.580 by all those battles he was in and then he saw that he had the terrible pain of his exile which never

00:16:37.780 went away and but i think he would say that opened him to a deeper desire a deeper place and and that's

00:16:45.120 how the story commences if you miss that you're going to miss a lot of what's going on i think in

00:16:50.280 the divine comedy it begins with a man in crisis it's like i always compare it to um the beginning

00:16:55.580 of moby dick you know when you know you call me ishmael and you know when it's a dreary november in 0.73

00:17:01.620 your soul that's how that story begins and he knows i've got to go on a journey he's got to go 0.98

00:17:07.380 on this whaling ship and then the story unfolds it's similar with dante in a way that he he begins

00:17:13.000 in crisis and he knows implicitly he's got to go on a journey all right so he's scared he's lost he

00:17:19.340 knows he needs to go on a journey so he looks around and he sees a mountain and he's suddenly

00:17:23.220 filled with hope and he's like i see the path i'm gonna start walking towards that mountain

00:17:27.080 what was that mountain and why did it give him hope and then how come he couldn't climb up the

00:17:32.080 mountain yeah it's the mountain of purgatory which he eventually will climb but it's he has a lot of

00:17:38.540 work to do before he gets there and you know it's not a bad thing when you intuit during a time of

00:17:43.660 crisis oh there there actually is a way out of this there is a path and at the top of it there's

00:17:49.360 there's light and i i'm not in an impossible situation but the mistake he made at that point was to

00:17:55.320 think he could just race up the mountain like okay no problem i'm going through a rough patch

00:17:59.900 but just give me you know a quick little burst of energy and i'll be fine but what he needs to do

00:18:05.300 is go on a very long and very arduous journey eventually going up that mountain that's that's

00:18:12.280 right and coming to salvation but it's going to cost him it's not a cheap grace kind of story

00:18:18.980 and there's what happens is there's three animals that block him and they basically they represent

00:18:24.400 the different types of sin he will encounter when he finally goes to hell right the different

00:18:29.640 degrees of sin and the people that read them in different ways how to interpret the animals but

00:18:34.000 the main point is you can't climb the mountain you can't just race up the mountain you got to come

00:18:39.160 to terms with these kind of ravenous forces that are in you that are blocking your access to truth and

00:18:47.580 goodness and beauty there's something the matter with your own soul that you've got to deal with

00:18:52.560 otherwise you get to the top of the mountain and you'll still be the same person so you'll be

00:18:57.500 blocked you just might might be in a higher a physical place but you won't be higher spiritually

00:19:02.980 until you deal with these animals and so these different levels of sin will correspond to the levels of

00:19:10.860 hell that he has to go down you know how wonderful that even when talking about hell there's that

00:19:15.960 medieval sense of hierarchy and order and symmetry so even hell is laid out a bit like a like a well

00:19:23.020 ordered building yeah you make the point in your own ministry and working with counseling individuals

00:19:27.940 that before they can make that change they might have that inkling of hope like yeah i i need to do

00:19:33.300 something and i there's something that'll help me you say they got to go through a deep moral inventory

00:19:38.960 yeah similar to what they you know what you might see in a 12-step program and that's what these animals

00:19:43.720 were saying like hey no you can't do this you're gonna have to go to hell and kind of face your inner

00:19:48.440 demons to see what's going on in you right and and i use that on purpose of course that language from

00:19:53.920 the 12-step process now do a connection there the 12-step was recognized by jung the psychologist

00:20:00.120 as a very powerful kind of psychological spiritual tool and it's found resonance with a lot of religious

00:20:07.660 people because the principles of it are close to our principles i'll just give you a couple of

00:20:12.780 examples someone's got to hit bottom right if you're addicted to sex or to drugs or to you know

00:20:19.000 whatever it is you won't really make progress until you've hit bottom until you say okay i know i'm lost

00:20:26.000 i know i can't solve this problem on my own right at which point you've got to hand your life over to a

00:20:32.540 higher power well look how the divine comedy unfolds it opens with a guy kind of having hit bottom

00:20:38.540 he knows he's lost he first tries on his own oh i can get up this mountain no problem no no no no you

00:20:46.360 can't and then what happens is his life will be handed over to these higher spiritual powers and only

00:20:54.460 under their direction will he now another term from the 12 step be able to do a searching moral

00:21:02.620 inventory right so someone that's going through aa or something you have to you have to do an

00:21:09.240 inventory not only of the things that you've done to other people ways that you're drinking or whatever

00:21:14.440 has hurt other people but you got to go deep down inside and look at the roots and sources of

00:21:20.840 this dysfunction well that's exactly what happens here hits bottom turns his life over to a higher power

00:21:27.440 and then is walked through a searching moral inventory so it's very much along the lines of

00:21:34.980 the 12 step and mind you too under the guidance of a of a mentor so in the 12 step you have a sponsor

00:21:40.940 right you have an elder or someone that's been through the same journey and so dante has that too

00:21:45.960 there's a tremendous resonance there yeah it's interesting dante hits bottom but then he learns

00:21:52.180 to go up he's gonna have to just keep going down he has to go yeah go down to go up so he has to

00:21:57.160 go to hell and you mentioned he has a guide his mentor it's virgil which is a weird pick right for

00:22:01.980 a catholic italian guy his mentor through hell and purgatory is this pagan poet why virgil well

00:22:10.040 several reasons one is he's a he's another self when you're first getting going in this process you need

00:22:16.900 someone that has a kind of authority you know over you but at the same time it's better to begin with

00:22:21.660 someone kind of like you well who is dante but an italian epic poet who is virgil an italian epic

00:22:29.680 poet virgil represents in dante's vision human reason so precisely as a pagan he doesn't have the 0.92

00:22:38.000 benefit of revelation so he represents like what what humanity can come up with on its own a human

00:22:45.180 reason now this is a good catholic instinct he's writing at the same time as thomas aquinas who said

00:22:52.100 faith and reason who used classical philosophy in his articulation of the christian faith so something

00:22:59.880 very parallel is going on here where dante is using pagan wisdom to get him going in the spiritual

00:23:07.380 process and i see i find that as a as a catholic it's kind of wonderful is use whatever works in a

00:23:13.300 way if someone comes to you and they've really been struggling in the spiritual order the psychological

00:23:18.500 order well okay start with a philosopher a psychologist start with a wisdom figure from the

00:23:24.700 world maybe that's that's better the person can get that more easily so that's what virgil represents

00:23:31.720 he's like dante and he's human reason and it leads him a long way virgil will lead him all the way

00:23:38.860 down through hell and all the way up mount purgatory it's only when he's ready for heaven that virgil has

00:23:44.820 to hand him off because human reason can't go that far but i think you know if people listening right

00:23:50.200 now are going through a crisis you got to find a mentor you got to find a spiritual guide and maybe

00:23:56.560 begin with someone who's kind of like you that's a lesson here and also the thing about virgil he doesn't

00:24:02.760 uh he doesn't use kid gloves with uh dante he's constantly just berating him because dante you

00:24:08.540 know he's going through hell he's you know naturally terrified of what he's seen and virgil's always

00:24:13.800 like a stern he reminds me like a stern football coach yeah buck up you got to be brave man and don't

00:24:20.600 hide your eyes you got to look at what's going on here you know and so you're you're 40s i'm a bit

00:24:25.120 older than you are when we were going through school so i was coming of age in the catholic church right

00:24:29.800 after vatican ii so 60s into the 70s everything was kind of soft in those days we were emphasizing

00:24:37.780 you know the love of god the mercy of god uh forgiveness and you know get up and you'll be

00:24:43.380 okay and but there was something weird about that because if you look at the great spiritual tradition

00:24:48.400 from the very beginning to right through it's marked by these tough people spiritual direction is

00:24:55.440 not like a little soft you know here's a pillow and relax on the contrary a real spiritual direction

00:25:01.860 is tough work because it involves precisely this coming to terms with what's negative in you and you

00:25:10.740 do need a football coach and you know i bet this is true for you it's true i think most men that i know

00:25:17.020 who are the teachers and coaches we remember that they were the ones who were tough on us right the

00:25:22.800 ones who made a lot of demands on us that they didn't say hell you're fine everything's great

00:25:27.620 the the coaches and teachers that we remember are the ones that that demanded a lot of us

00:25:32.920 that's a lost art i think i'll tell you a story from a couple years ago a priest friend of mine younger

00:25:39.160 than i am but went through some of the same kind of training he said you know what our generation missed

00:25:45.060 we missed yoda on our shoulders and the reference was in star wars remember when uh luke skywalker

00:25:51.880 has to go through his sort of initiation as a jedi and there's yoda yoda was not easy on him and was

00:26:00.780 barking orders at him and making demands and and literally riding him you know to get him to do what

00:26:07.200 he wanted this priest friend of mine said we didn't have that grown up we didn't have yoda on our

00:26:12.160 shoulders well that's virgil you need virgil to say okay we got to go through hell you're not going to

00:26:20.060 hide if you start swooning on me pal you you better wake up you know so i i think that's a much much

00:26:27.960 needed thing today we're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors

00:26:31.780 and now back to the show so transformation requires courage and it requires just being open like seeing

00:26:44.940 things as they really are and that takes courage to do that yeah let's talk about the topography of

00:26:48.780 hell so they start making their way down hell it's described as this you know an inverted cone

00:26:53.260 so it starts out wide and as you get deeper and deeper in hell it gets narrower and narrower

00:26:58.280 what does that represent he's so good i mean he's such a great poet and so all those are symbolic

00:27:04.100 values so see in in aquinas and the great medieval figures the soul is meant for expansion

00:27:12.740 you know the soul is meant for union with god and it's meant to go out from itself first to the

00:27:18.820 the beauties and goodnesses of the world but then ultimately is to to fly into the fullness of goodness

00:27:25.580 that god is so it's like wings it's flight it's mobility it's it's spaciousness so hell is the opposite of

00:27:34.740 that saint augustine described sin as being curvatus in say which means caved in on oneself it always

00:27:44.560 struck me as a really good definition those times in life when you're you're so self-absorbed and

00:27:49.980 self-preoccupied self-pitying that you want to kind of retreat into the recesses of your own self

00:27:56.900 well that's hell so as hell gets lower and lower it gets narrower and narrower so that's the the small

00:28:05.540 space of the fallen soul but dante's got to go down all the way to find the source of that narrowing

00:28:14.980 in him of course the other thing so the narrowness of hell is also the cold of hell and that's a that's

00:28:21.700 a marvelous intuition of dante's because we always associate hell with heat with fire he doesn't it's

00:28:29.420 the opposite the deeper you get the colder it gets much better symbol i think because sin is is a cold

00:28:38.660 state of affairs and i make the world around me colder when i'm in sin cold causes me to kind of

00:28:46.620 you know grasp at my own sides to warm myself up it it narrows and constricts me so it it corresponds

00:28:54.360 to the narrowing of the physical space of hell and i think to me that's always been a marvelous

00:28:59.280 symbol not fire but ice no i think i i think that's a great representation and great description because

00:29:05.600 i've known in my own life when i am in those periods where you know i'm not i'm just like i'm

00:29:10.240 self-absorbed i don't feel good and you feel cold and i think we've all can relate to that and what's

00:29:15.860 interesting too as dante's going down hell he's he's talking to the the souls in hell and what's

00:29:21.240 interesting the way the impression i got is that they all continue to be self-absorbed like they're

00:29:25.740 just still talking about you know whatever happened to them in life or they just talk about well the

00:29:30.380 reason i'm here is because because god put me here it's my parents or just because the time i was born

00:29:36.000 again it's that self-absorption is still going on there well and look at if you're dealing pastorally

00:29:41.340 with people like going through a 12-step type process that's often what you got to overcome

00:29:45.500 is maybe before someone's hit bottom they're playing all those games all the time of oh no

00:29:51.420 this is not really my problem if someone else did this to me it's because of that i have these old

00:29:56.160 resentments and and you know if only things were different then i would feel better about myself and

00:30:00.840 you have to get beyond that and everyone in hell is reflecting everybody else but in this very

00:30:07.100 negative way they're reinforcing their own constriction and coldness and negativity

00:30:13.460 um it'll be the opposite of course in heaven when everyone reflects everyone else in a positive

00:30:19.960 way you know we're in a beautiful world you and i would be enhancing each other you know as i would

00:30:26.420 appreciate your goodness you'd appreciate my goodness and we wouldn't be in a rivalry but we'd

00:30:31.620 be in a in a relationship of kind of mutual enhancement well hell is the opposite you know for this and and the

00:30:37.840 thing is you know we we all we all live in hell in the measure that we're sinners we know what that's

00:30:43.280 like when i find myself in this cold narrow space full of self-pity blaming others making the world

00:30:50.620 around me colder filling other people with resentment i mean i i know what that's like um and

00:30:56.580 dante expresses that in his in his very fine poetry what's interesting about dante too and his the way

00:31:02.540 depicted hell the bottom layer of hell like the closest to satan that's where the fraudsters go

00:31:08.640 right it's not the murderers it's not the you know people who do violence it's people who

00:31:13.540 lie and people who commit fraud who are traitors why what's going on there why did dante think that

00:31:18.700 was worse than killing somebody for very simple reason because it's more spiritually pure

00:31:24.220 so like sins of of lust and and you know when your passions get the better of you

00:31:28.880 their sins don't get me wrong dante sees them as very serious things but he also can find room in

00:31:35.000 his heart to to forgive you know when someone's passions or bodily passions get the better of them

00:31:40.960 but see when you're you've betrayed a friend well that's not just your bodily passion get the better

00:31:48.060 of you that's a very coldly calculating move that participates much more in the soul than it does in

00:31:56.140 the body if that makes sense someone who's caught in some kind of say a sexual addiction a lot of

00:32:01.220 that is the body or the the desires the body kind of run amok he's much more sympathetic with that

00:32:07.940 than he is with the cold-blooded calculating traitor and that's why i think quite rightly puts

00:32:15.260 them at a lower place in hell if you look at the deadly sins and we'll get there when we get to

00:32:19.760 purgatory but probably most people today you mentioned sin or you know vice they would think

00:32:25.340 right away of sexual sin well dante reverses that sexual sin for him is the least of the deadly sins

00:32:32.380 where of course pride is the most serious but i wonder how many people if you say boy that guy is

00:32:39.540 really a sinner that that guy really is caught in vice would they think of pride first of all i i rather

00:32:46.740 doubt it but dante is right in line by the way with the great spiritual teachers too aquinas would

00:32:52.600 certainly say that that the greatest of the sins is pride not lust so he gets down to the bottom of

00:32:58.320 hell and he sees satan and satan's this kind of pathetic figure he's this giant with wings and he's 0.77

00:33:03.320 covered he's like in ice to his chest and he's crying he's got three faces he's sort of this inverted 0.93

00:33:09.280 trinity going on he's chewing up the great traitors judas and then the guys who betrayed caesar 0.89

00:33:15.140 and you know virgil says all right we got to hop on satan here because we got to keep going on a trip

00:33:20.620 and what's funny satan doesn't do anything that's kind of that soul idea that when you're in a place

00:33:24.620 of sin it's you're just self-absorbed and you're cold and what's interesting you talk about this in

00:33:29.300 the course you know what virgil says to uh dante is like all right hold on here we got to keep going

00:33:33.800 down that's that's the only way we can get up to purgatory there's so much that's fascinating there

00:33:38.320 i think one of the great literary inventions in the whole tradition is dante's invention of satan

00:33:43.860 at the pit of hell as you say he's at the very lowest place so the coldest place and it's the

00:33:50.920 iciest place he has wings as dante imagines him because he's an angel right well angels are meant

00:33:58.620 to fly they're spiritual creatures meant to fly into the beauty of god but satan is a perverted angel so

00:34:06.360 the wings have become like bat wings and now that he's stuck it's beautiful beautiful perception here

00:34:13.120 he's stuck so as he beats his angel wings which are meant to make him fly all they do is make the

00:34:20.340 world around him colder see it's the use of of a positive spiritual power but in a sinful way

00:34:27.160 you know the um that's the christian idea of sin by the way it's not like there's no such thing as

00:34:32.360 pure corruption corruption has to be a corruption of something good by definition you know so evil is

00:34:40.220 only a privation of the good that we say so the the wings represent what's good in satan his spiritual

00:34:47.100 powers but they become corroded and corrupt and so all they succeed in doing is making the world around

00:34:53.280 you colder how many of us sinners use what's good in us our minds our wills our powers our whatever

00:35:01.360 but to harm people we what should be instruments of of love become instruments of of hostility

00:35:09.000 well that's the wings of of satan beating over the ice and making the world around him colder

00:35:14.700 and then as you say beautifully he's got three faces god is three persons and that's a way of

00:35:22.480 expressing the fact that god is love by the way right that in god there's a lover the father a beloved

00:35:27.780 the son and the love they share of the holy spirit so that's beautiful the trinity is an expression of

00:35:33.080 the love that god is what's every sinner every sinner is a sort of perverse simulacrum of god

00:35:40.840 in the measure that you're a sinner you think you're god you think you're the center of the universe 1.00

00:35:45.920 the world revolves around you the world exists to serve you and so all of us sinners have these three

00:35:53.900 faces were perverse inversions of the trinity and then as you also suggest he's chewing in each of

00:36:02.140 his mouths on a sinner in dante's mind the three greatest traitors judas who betrayed jesus and then

00:36:08.020 brutus and cassius who betrayed caesar so there's our thing too about that's the most refined kind of sin

00:36:14.440 betrayal but he chews on them without devouring them and then he weeps from all six eyes so stuck

00:36:25.140 coldly in place making the world around you colder chewing on past resentments and weeping in your

00:36:35.500 sadness that to me is such a beautiful depiction of what sin looks like what sin feels like in other

00:36:43.200 words he's not a glamorous figure the devil is often portrayed in literature as a glamorous figure

00:36:49.320 he's not in dante at all and he's effectively powerless because they they jump onto his sides 1.00

00:36:56.980 and he he barely even notices them because he's so stuck in this sort of hopeless self-regard

00:37:04.120 that's a beautiful picture of what goes wrong with us and notice he finds it at the bottom of hell which

00:37:11.960 means it's the source of all the negativity of hell so when you go in that spiritual inventory and you

00:37:19.600 go all the way down into yourself and find this wound or this pain or this sin that's generating

00:37:30.020 all that's wrong in you that's a very important spiritual moment so they make the bottom and as you

00:37:37.340 said to to go up you have to go down you have to kind of fall upwards i think richard roar talks about

00:37:42.240 that you got to fall upwards so they continue their trip like basically they're going through the earth

00:37:45.860 right yeah out to the other side of the earth and there they see mount purgatory this is where

00:37:51.960 the refinement is going to start happening so dante got to see sin what it was like now he's in the

00:37:58.020 process where you can refine himself purgatory so you get to purge yourself of right and remember he he 0.51

00:38:03.240 tried that early on oh i'll just climb this mountain but he wasn't ready at all for that and even that

00:38:08.760 move oh no problem i'll climb the mountain you see all the pride that was in him and the sort of

00:38:14.360 spiritual superficiality so what he needed was the experience of hell he had to go all the way down and

00:38:21.400 get all the soot on him and all the smell and the stink and the and the ugliness of hell he had to see

00:38:27.920 all of that that's true in any spiritual adventure if you think oh no problem i'll just you know purge

00:38:34.020 a few little problems that i have then ipso facto you're in a bad spiritual space so having made that

00:38:40.940 awful journey he's now ready for purgation so he gets to purgatory tell us about the topography of

00:38:47.840 mount purgatory what does it look like and there's also there's a daily rhythm that goes on there that

00:38:52.400 didn't happen in hell it's arranged according to seven levels and they correspond to the

00:38:57.920 seven deadly sins i don't know if any of your listeners are aware of of thomas merton the great

00:39:03.940 trappist spiritual writer from the last century his autobiography is called the seven-story mountain

00:39:09.080 and it's it's taken from dante the purgatory because merton saw his life as a trappist as a kind

00:39:15.800 of purgatorial exercise to walk up the seven-story mountain so that that's the discipline he has to go

00:39:21.780 from level to level there's a rhythm as you say of of day and night of work and then rest and so on

00:39:28.260 there's an orderliness and a purposefulness about purgatory that you don't find in hell hell is sort

00:39:34.880 of cacophonous and hopeless and and you know the way that's that's what it feels like to be stuck in

00:39:41.440 sin but when you're ready for this purgative move it corresponds to a to a discipline and order in the

00:39:48.780 spiritual life and what you see too is you see the souls in purgatory starting to help each other

00:39:53.700 right hell they were just yelling at each other and in purgatory they're actually they're starting

00:39:58.960 to come together they're starting to turn outwards yes yes and that's the right way to to do it and

00:40:04.180 and you see it anyone that's done counseling or spiritual direction you know with people is you

00:40:09.240 see that it's it's lovely when that moment happens people were caught in hell they're they're

00:40:14.460 just the way dante describes them resentful blaming others suspicious of everyone around them

00:40:21.420 looking for the worst not the best but when you make that transition and you say okay look i know

00:40:26.680 i'm a sinner i'm a terrible sinner and i'm now doing my purgative work well then your your instinct

00:40:34.320 shifts and and you start seeing other people not as rivals to you but as companions on the way and

00:40:40.180 and you know that in helping them you're helping yourself and vice versa so right that's a major

00:40:46.000 spiritual shift so i think that's a good point there so for spiritual transformation you need a

00:40:51.620 guide you need to do that deep that searching moral inventory see who you who you are and then

00:40:56.980 eventually you got to get to a point where you're trying to get better but you got to do it with other

00:41:02.000 people yeah right it's that's exactly right a communitarian enterprise the spiritual life is never

00:41:07.740 just you know me and jesus or me and god trying to work it out god wants to draw us into a family so

00:41:13.440 the church i'm speaking as a catholic the church is essential to the spiritual progress it happens

00:41:20.240 with other members of the mystical body and that's a beautiful dimension of it and mind you virgil's still

00:41:27.600 guiding him at this point so he's not handing him off yet still human reason and that's interesting

00:41:33.420 thing so there's only someone who's maybe outside the formal church but they're trying to follow this

00:41:38.000 program okay you can do a lot under the guidance of of you know human human wisdom so in purgatory

00:41:45.220 people are working together like hey you got this we can make this happen you're doing a great job

00:41:49.600 what does the purgation process look like i mean how do they get rid of their their sins

00:41:55.000 it's usually by a process that jung referred to as an anti-edromia which is kind of or

00:42:00.620 stagnation as we call the agere contra you you act against so pride you know which is the elevation

00:42:08.440 of the self the lifting up the prideful people have to walk around under the weight of terrible boulders

00:42:15.120 so their their self elevation is met by a self denigration let's see the the envious people that

00:42:23.000 kept looking around you know other people and how they doing their eyes are sewn shut the way a

00:42:29.260 a falcon's eyes would have been sewn shut in the middle ages so in every case and then the gluttonous

00:42:35.260 of course are are deprived of food the slothful have to get up and run so on every level it's the

00:42:43.420 opposite of your problem and that's a very deep spiritual intuition too though simple but very

00:42:49.320 profound it's like okay what's your problem what's your poison you got a agere contra you have to act

00:42:55.360 against whatever that is still very wise advice and as the souls go up the mountain and sort of

00:43:02.260 start taking off their sin purging themselves of their sins they get lighter that's the another

00:43:06.600 thing dante notices they're going to get they get lighter and lighter and it's that it's the opposite

00:43:10.720 from you know of hell where it's inward and heavy and cold now you're turning outward and becoming

00:43:16.980 lighter and lighter you know i think of it it's funny ever since i read that whenever i'm walking

00:43:21.140 uphill i like to walk and hike you know it's a steep uphill climb like oh it's such a pain this uphill

00:43:27.580 climb i always think yeah you know in heaven it'll be the opposite is it as i'm climbing upward it's

00:43:33.440 getting lighter it's a great image the lightness of being means i'm not weighed down by my ego i don't

00:43:40.680 have that monkey on my back anymore that's what weighs you down is you're preoccupied with how am i doing

00:43:47.560 how do i appear am i successful do they like me and all of that is just a weight on my back

00:43:54.540 the best moments in life are when you transcend that when you can set that monkey aside and then

00:44:01.660 you move with such a a lightness of step well that's the idea now is as you're getting rid of

00:44:08.260 your sins like what if you really could get through a day without pride that you never once thought

00:44:15.200 about you know do they like me am i doing better than that guy why does he have something i don't

00:44:20.420 have what if i could set all of that aside the lightness of being is what we all really want

00:44:27.180 but we're burdened by all seven of the deadly sins yeah i can really i've i've there's been

00:44:32.720 those moments in my life where i just feel that like i just completely just don't care but in not

00:44:36.760 not in a nihilistic way but in a way i just say i just i'm gonna just be focused on it and it feels

00:44:42.360 great yeah then you just have a tendency to start turning inwards again it's it's annoying

00:44:46.740 right well that's the mysterium iniquitatis is our the spiritual masters say the the mystery of evil

00:44:52.640 because as you say and we all know that everyone listening to us knows that those moments in life

00:44:57.920 when you're least aware of yourself are the best moments in life but they're like a firework that goes

00:45:04.560 off and then it disappears so he makes it up mount purgatory and then we enter into paradisio

00:45:09.640 and i'll admit when i read paradisio it didn't it didn't grab me as much as purgatorio or the

00:45:17.180 inferno but i know other people have complained about the same thing it's like well i mean people

00:45:21.900 don't talk about that when they talk about the divine comedy they usually talk about inferno

00:45:25.080 maybe purgatory right people always forget there's a paradisio why do you think heaven doesn't get a

00:45:29.480 lot of attention because we don't know what it's like and and see sin we're all over that i mean i i

00:45:36.080 know all about sin i've practiced all seven deadly sins i know what that feels like and so the imagery

00:45:42.020 that dante reaches for we're like yep yep got it remember yeah i experienced that and the purgatorio

00:45:48.280 trying to deal with all this yes i've been there so i think we we just readily identify with those

00:45:55.000 parts you get to the paradiso and now you're in a place that's beyond the deadly sins that's beyond

00:46:02.920 self-absorption you're not lost you're journeying in to the light and love that god is well see most

00:46:13.340 of us don't don't have a lot of experience that in those great moments we were just alluding to

00:46:18.760 maybe in the liturgy maybe in a splendid work of art we have little fleeting hints of what that's like

00:46:26.580 it's like a you know in the scriptures how the angels the angels come and they go they never

00:46:34.380 stick around all right there's no example in the scripture where the angels came and then they

00:46:39.460 moved in next door and they were there for you know a few months i got to know them no the angels

00:46:44.180 come and they go and that's i think a very deep spiritual point that these moments of breakthrough

00:46:49.840 are moments and they pass now my point here is when you're trying now in a sustained way

00:46:57.440 to depict heaven we have a much harder time even a even a sublime poet like dante

00:47:03.040 has a harder time grabbing our sinful imagination and also what goes on in heaven what's interesting

00:47:09.280 so there's a lot of there's a lot of movement there's a lot of music dante also describes it

00:47:14.460 soldiers sitting around playing games and singing and you describe heaven you do

00:47:19.560 useless things in heaven but uh as we learned from c.s lewis sometimes the most valuable things

00:47:24.380 in life are the useless things yeah they always are no by definition because if it's useful it's

00:47:30.320 subordinated to an end outside of itself so i've got a car it's useful to me to get me places i want

00:47:35.560 to go once i get there some some things i do are useful to higher ends but like sometimes the car takes

00:47:42.360 me let's say to the mass and now i'm doing the most useless thing i can on earth the mass is the

00:47:48.140 most useless thing you can do which means it's the best thing that it's not subordinated to an

00:47:52.640 end outside of itself or i go to a baseball game baseball game is supremely useless it's a it's a

00:47:58.460 waste of time but that means it's the very best thing we have and so i think play or game language

00:48:06.960 is appropriate to heaven that's why you know playing a harp which always sounds so dull to me i mean harp

00:48:12.280 music if they had like a cool guitar or something but like playing a harp but the idea there is both

00:48:18.200 music and it's play and both of those are evocative of the sheer useless splendor of of heaven also i

00:48:27.880 like about play is or let's say you're you're not just strumming a harp by yourself you're part of an

00:48:33.000 orchestra because now you're you're sharing music with others people that ever like been in a band you

00:48:39.020 know those ecstatic moments when the band really comes together and you know you're not just playing

00:48:46.040 the song but you've reached a new level of cooperation and and kind of one in the other

00:48:51.840 quality or you know in sports same thing like if you're bringing the ball up court and and boy that

00:48:58.060 play just worked or that fast break we we all communicated appropriately and we you know those are

00:49:05.200 the moments that are kind of like heaven and dante is hinting at all that for sure so when he gets to

00:49:11.700 heaven he looks to the side and virgil's not there anymore but it's beatrice this this love of his life

00:49:18.640 right and it's funny uh you think this would be like a great moment but beatrice kind of just yells

00:49:22.780 at him at dante's like and basically yelled like what took you so long why did i have to do this

00:49:27.360 for you to get here but why is it beatrice at heaven that that's his guide and not virgil yeah because

00:49:33.520 she stands for theology and virgil's for a natural reason it's more masculine it's more mind oriented

00:49:39.460 and you know purpose oriented theology i mean read aquinas those people is certainly a rigorous

00:49:44.920 intellectual discipline but it's predicated upon something more like love because it's a response

00:49:50.960 to revelation and revelation is always the act of a person revealing him or herself right stay with

00:49:59.760 that image for a bit i mean i could learn a little bit about you by looking you up and google and i could

00:50:05.140 read about you and i'm i'm learning i mean a little tiny bit in our conversation today but if you and i

00:50:11.460 went on to become friends and so on and then a certain point maybe deep into our our companionship

00:50:19.320 you decided to reveal something about yourself that i would never have known otherwise right well at that

00:50:27.980 moment something like love or trust has to be paramount because i i can't analyze that and just

00:50:36.200 take it in on my own terms i have to i have to love you enough and trust you enough to believe what

00:50:41.660 you've told me if that makes sense that to me is a very exact uh comparison to what faith religious

00:50:48.280 faith is like is i can know a lot about god through reason and i can you know work my way up the ladder to a

00:50:55.260 degree but finally it's a person who's spoken to me and so it's in love and trust that i have to say

00:51:04.000 okay i believe that that's why it's appropriate that i mean dante didn't love virgil i mean he admired

00:51:10.420 him and he followed him but he loved beatrice and so she's a more appropriate symbol for theology

00:51:16.380 which is what's needed for the journey into heaven so he begins his journey and what he sees like we said

00:51:22.200 there's people playing games they're singing there's music sometimes dante can't hear the music

00:51:27.220 and he's told well your ears are these mortal ears and you can't hear it but you only get remnants of

00:51:31.860 it and the other the big change too is the souls the souls in in heaven they've completed that outward

00:51:38.340 turning they're completely it's just this communitarian everyone's just reaching out towards

00:51:43.280 each other and i think i mean we've all had those moments where people we have differences with

00:51:47.860 we somehow just as you said like that baseball game where you do a great play everyone's just

00:51:52.100 syncing up and playing their part yeah and so dante describes heaven as there's individuals you don't

00:51:57.400 lose your individuality in fact your individuality gets enhanced in heaven but it's enhanced to be part

00:52:02.740 of this larger circle of community yeah and it's a circle of community that includes not just human

00:52:09.220 beings but the angels too and there's that gothic cathedral quality you know that the cathedrals have

00:52:15.080 human figures in them to be sure in natural realities like plants and animals but they also

00:52:20.940 have angels they have these beings that exist at a higher pitch of existence and who are loving and

00:52:27.700 knowing at a higher pitch and heaven shows our communion yes even with them even with the angels

00:52:34.240 how come we can't hear the angels we can say well we're you know in our sin we're just not tuned in

00:52:40.240 we're not attuned to that level of of reality so he makes it to the top layer of heaven and a new

00:52:47.600 guide takes beatrice's place and saint bernard why did saint bernard become dante's guide to the

00:52:53.100 utmost reaches of heaven because he was a mystic bernard was extraordinary figure died early 12th

00:52:58.980 century fascinating figure intellectual to be sure religious founder but what he's best known for is

00:53:05.780 his mysticism and when i say mysticism i mean that sense of union with god that has become visceral and

00:53:15.140 direct and experiential so the philosopher can know something about god based on human reason the

00:53:21.960 theologian can know at a higher level based on love and trust and revelation the mystic is someone who's

00:53:28.260 been invited to the table and is is eating the banquet a mystic is someone who's kind of beyond

00:53:34.960 philosophy beyond theology beyond language and conceptuality and has reached the highest pitch

00:53:42.240 of perception so even theology has to give way to mysticism at the end of the process and he's the

00:53:50.320 one that ushers him in to dante gets to see the face of god basically the beatific vision is that what

00:53:55.080 it's called yeah yeah it's a lovely description the visio beatifica so vision a lot of the divine

00:54:02.260 comedy is about vision coming to vision coming to see well what's the culminating point of all of human

00:54:09.920 experience would be this visio beatifica the the vision that finally makes us happy beatus just means

00:54:18.940 happy what's the happy vision it's the vision of god because god is the supreme good and all the goods

00:54:27.340 that we experience are reflections of that supreme good participations in it so at the end of all of

00:54:33.400 our striving when we let go of of our reason we let go even of theology we come to a vision

00:54:40.760 that's only a gift of god you know and that's what dante receives at the end of this long journey

00:54:47.060 well bishop barron this has been a great conversation where can people go to learn more about

00:54:51.000 your work well go to uh word on fire.org all one word word on fire.org and you can find lots of

00:54:58.060 sermons and books and articles and podcasts and lots of things fantastic well bishop robert barron

00:55:03.220 thanks for time it's been a pleasure god bless you thanks for having me today my guest name is bishop

00:55:07.880 robert barron he's the founder of word on fire you can find out more information about that at

00:55:11.460 word on fire.org also check out our show notes at aom.is slash dante where you find links to

00:55:16.220 resources where we delve deeper into this topic well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast

00:55:28.080 make sure to check out our website at artofmail.com where you find our podcast archives as well as

00:55:32.220 thousands of articles written over the years about pretty much anything you think of and while

00:55:35.500 you're there make sure to sign up for our newsletter it's free there's a daily or weekly option and if

00:55:39.900 you'd like to enjoy ad free episodes of the aom podcast you can do so on stitcher premium head over

00:55:44.180 to stitcher premium.com sign up use code manly at checkout for a free month trial once you're

00:55:48.320 signed up download the stitcher app on android ios and you start enjoying ad free episodes of the

00:55:52.360 aom podcast and if you haven't done so already i'd appreciate if you take one minute to give us

00:55:56.040 your view on apple podcast or spotify it helps out a lot and if you've done that already thank you

00:55:59.760 please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you think we get something out of

00:56:03.320 it as always thank you for the continued support until next time's brett mckay

00:56:07.160 reminding you to not listen to the aom podcast but put what you've heard into action

00:56:11.540 you

00:56:12.040 you

The Art of Manliness - January 30, 2023

Dante's Guide to Navigating a Spiritual Journey

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript