The Art of Manliness - Developing Your Personal Uniform

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast the personal

00:00:11.660 uniform is a look that you settled on as your regular get up today on the show i talked to

00:00:15.680 two style writers david coggins and michael williams about all things concerning this

00:00:19.720 stylish yet bandwidth saving approach to dressing we discuss what a personal uniform is how to

00:00:24.220 develop one and why that development comes with age how to find inspiration for yours we also

00:00:28.680 talk about establishing the base pieces of your personal uniform buying multiples of its fundamental

00:00:32.860 components and refining your look over time after the show's over check out our show notes at

00:00:36.840 awim.is slash personal uniform david coggins michael williams welcome to the show hey brad good to be

00:00:55.060 here yeah thanks for having us well david long-time listeners are likely familiar with

00:00:59.500 you and your background because this is your fourth time on the podcast this is a rare you're for peter

00:01:04.960 this is a rarefied group you're you've joined but for newer listeners can you briefly tell us about

00:01:10.000 your background in the world of menswear and style and you've i mean why have you spent so many years

00:01:14.680 writing about it yeah i don't like to do the math on these things and look back at how long i've i've

00:01:20.340 been writing about this stuff but it's great to be back on the show great to talk to you i i i started

00:01:25.760 out because i was just interested in in clothes and why why we like them and how they're made and

00:01:30.500 the people who make them and people who wear them in an interesting way and as i get older i that my

00:01:36.760 views evolve the same way we the way we dress evolves over time and so and also half the magazines

00:01:42.640 i wrote for have gone out of business the way print magazines tend to do these days so as a matter of

00:01:48.300 fact i even wrote a lot of my early style stories for a continuous lean a site michael knows a lot

00:01:53.620 about so that was a good starting point for me and it's nice to be talking with you guys today

00:01:57.340 yeah michael let's introduce you to our listeners uh what's your background in the world of men's

00:02:01.060 clothing and menswear yeah so i i started a website called a continuous lean back when websites like

00:02:08.300 that were called blogs no i i started a men's style blog i was like randomly one of the first people

00:02:18.300 if you meet me you'd kind of think like wow this is the guy that started the men's style blog i

00:02:23.880 maybe wouldn't have guessed that but it's all it's all in here it's it's in here somewhere but

00:02:28.860 i basically was interested in all these things was you know reading about menswear online and and a lot

00:02:36.780 of like what was out in the magazines not what caggins was doing per se but just what was out in

00:02:41.900 general kind of wasn't exactly the aesthetic or the point of view that i was looking for and i thought

00:02:47.220 well i should just do this for fun as a creative outlet and started that site and it became this

00:02:52.740 you know i sort of was in the right place at the right time with the right point of view and and

00:02:57.100 it sort of just kind of became this popular thing and then that has sort of propelled me along to

00:03:02.380 you know just my career has sort of followed you know the growth of acl and then you know i do

00:03:08.720 marketing work and write about other stuff on you know my whole career has sort of evolved around

00:03:14.220 that but i sort of just fell into it but i'm still very interested in you know much of what

00:03:19.980 caggins was saying too it's like the people that make these things or how things are made or what

00:03:25.660 goes into the things we wear every day and that's something i'm still pretty passionate about yeah

00:03:30.860 continuously i i remember finding something upon that back in 2008 or 9 and i'm sure if like if if a

00:03:37.120 guy's listening to this podcast and they own a pair of wolverine 1000 mile boots or a pair of

00:03:42.640 selvedge jeans from was that north that north carolina mill they probably have you to thank

00:03:48.220 yeah that stuff was coming sort of mainstream when i was championing it so i don't know if i if they

00:03:56.100 had me to thank but i definitely helped sort of propel that you know for better or worse and yeah

00:04:01.260 the denim factory which is no longer uh is is called the white oak factory but yeah that stuff you know

00:04:08.700 i think part of my idea behind doing what i was doing with acl was this stuff isn't going to be

00:04:14.280 around forever and especially if people don't start to appreciate some of these things and a lot of the

00:04:18.920 stuff sort of has come and gone but then other things have gained incredible popularity so it's

00:04:23.960 kind of been interesting to see on both sides so you guys uh a while back ago david you did a

00:04:30.240 newsletter on your sub stack about finding your personal uniform and this is something you and michael

00:04:36.460 talk about on your podcast that you have it's a recurring topic let's start out there like what

00:04:41.420 do you guys mean by a personal uniform is this something that you're supposed to wear every day

00:04:47.180 like steve jobs and his black turtleneck and jeans and new balance shoes well i think the uniform is

00:04:53.800 fascinating to me because it combines sort of self-expression and ease and that's a lot of what

00:04:59.020 we're talking about when we're talking about how to dress it's something that reflects who you are

00:05:02.640 but also something that makes your life easier especially in the morning when you don't want to

00:05:07.020 make major decisions about how to present yourself to people you work with or people you're meeting

00:05:11.780 with and so i'm fascinated with especially as we get older it seems like we arrive more clearly at a

00:05:17.100 sense of kind of who we are and the clothes we need to reflect what we're doing in the world and so a

00:05:22.220 uniform i i think for some people it it might intimidate them because it seems like you're committing

00:05:27.160 to something but i find it really liberating in a way because it just takes another thing out of

00:05:33.160 your you've resolved something very important and easy on a daily basis so i think that's what what we

00:05:39.760 talk about when we talk about uniforms yeah i mean i think the the reason steve jobs was doing it

00:05:45.780 is maybe a little bit different than why david and i champion it i think he was like trying to just

00:05:52.600 eliminate the effort in you know choosing what to wear every day and it was it's almost like if you

00:06:00.220 you could not eat and just have soylent if you just needed the nutrition right and you can like

00:06:05.820 get rid of eating as a as a time you know as a something that you spend time doing or energy on

00:06:13.300 thinking about and just you know get the nutrition from something else you know there you could do that

00:06:18.120 but it wouldn't really be much fun and i think that a lot of times like i think about steve jobs

00:06:23.100 and i think he was doing it maybe for a little bit of a different reason yeah i think you guys i mean

00:06:27.200 you guys aren't approaching the personal uniform as a chance to not care about aesthetics or how you

00:06:31.920 look and you know it's also it's not like a star trek thing where everyone's wearing the same uniform

00:06:37.180 because of its you know its functionality but you guys do care about aesthetics and you do care about

00:06:41.740 how you look and you know you've you've dialed in into your own unique aesthetic and what you think

00:06:47.500 looks good on you what looks best on you and then you replicate it so you're not just being utilitarian

00:06:53.000 about it but i mean it does save bandwidth in figuring out how to dress beyond that are there

00:06:58.620 other benefits to having a personal uniform well i mean dressing to me still reflects some sort of

00:07:04.140 self-knowledge so if i see someone who's has arrived at a uniform i know that he knows himself

00:07:10.280 which is always going to be appealing and reassuring and also that he's at ease with himself

00:07:14.260 it communicates something that puts other people at ease and so we're not talking about a uniform in

00:07:19.860 some way that like all men wearing the gray final suit it's like someone can wear a gray final suit

00:07:24.500 and look like himself someone can wear a chore jacket and and khakis and look like himself but you

00:07:29.680 kind of wanted you do have to make decisions to arrive at the point of not making decisions right

00:07:34.560 it's sort of like if you master a meal that you can cook when you have company it took you a long time

00:07:38.680 to arrive at that but now that your friends are coming over you know exactly what to do and how to prepare

00:07:42.880 it i i guess i need to be clear here like when you're talking about a uniform i think a lot of

00:07:47.000 guys would say well i've got a uniform i wear t-shirt and jeans and flip-flops every day it seems like

00:07:54.160 that's not what you guys are talking about it's like not like a default you're trying to be intentional

00:07:57.820 about it am i am i am i right about that i mean i would have encouraged anyone to avoid something that

00:08:03.060 involves other people seeing their toes i don't think that's going to win any awards uh unless you're a

00:08:08.040 lifeguard but um i i think that we're talking about something that you're like go out in the world

00:08:13.160 and it's not because you ran out of ideas it's because you have a really good idea and then that

00:08:18.280 is that's specific to you i mean maybe uniform is even i don't know if it's giving the right

00:08:23.440 connotation but when i see and i know when you meet certain people like a certain creative director

00:08:28.060 you're like oh i get it this is how what he does he's got like a very specific t-shirt a very

00:08:32.620 specific pair of sneakers maybe a fancy watch and like jeans that i don't know what they are but i

00:08:37.040 know they probably cost a lot i'm not saying that's for everybody but i was like that guy has arrived

00:08:40.820 at that point of view and that in it and he's at ease in it and it works for him almost every day

00:08:46.520 and that you know that that communicates even a certain sort of power in a way or at least resolve

00:08:52.060 that he knows what makes sense for him i think it's interesting everyone can have a different

00:08:57.420 opinion about this and there's no right or wrong and the way coggins sees this could be very different

00:09:03.140 than the way i see it and it still could work so there's like you know there's no there's no right

00:09:07.860 or wrong answer with this stuff i see the uniform as like a refinement of your personal style say you took

00:09:15.140 your music collection that you've accumulated your whole life and you had to strip it down to like the

00:09:19.620 top 25 records or whatever and you're kind of like all right this this is the stuff i enjoy the most

00:09:27.120 and i want to sort of like continue to have in rotation so for me it's like if i you know feel

00:09:32.900 like oh i look good in unstructured sport coats and they're casual enough for me and they're

00:09:39.100 comfortable enough and i and they work for meetings and they work for travel and they work for all this

00:09:42.960 other stuff and i feel confident in them then i'm going to keep that in my my sort of rotation or and

00:09:49.080 make that part of my uniform and so everything i wear is kind of like has has that sort of basis where

00:09:55.980 you know you look good and you feel confident in it and it feels like you are representing yourself

00:10:02.000 and so every your uniform is made up of all the things that you've sort of tried over the years

00:10:07.360 and feel like you look good in and give you confidence and and present you in a way that you

00:10:13.280 feel is accurate to how you see yourself and that to me is like is the uniform that's you know it's it's

00:10:21.240 an evolutionary process in a way like i don't think you could do it if you're very young you can't just

00:10:27.060 be like all right this is my uniform because you kind of haven't tried everything you need to know

00:10:31.160 you know sort of go through that process and figure out what what works best for you and what you what

00:10:37.260 makes you feel the best and it's sort of like stripping away all the noise and just keeping that

00:10:41.820 important the important things that serve you sort of the best or make you feel the best

00:10:46.400 yeah david i i follow you on instagram and my parasocial relationship that i have with you

00:10:52.400 i sense like every time i see pictures of you it doesn't you have like there's a there's a

00:10:56.300 continuity of what you wear it doesn't matter if you are fly fishing or at a book signing or you know

00:11:01.940 with michael watching the pga tour it's and it's kind of weird because all those situations there

00:11:06.620 they they call for varying degrees of formality and you do change the formality but there's an overall

00:11:12.160 like yeah like there's that's david's uniform how would you guys describe your respective personal

00:11:18.040 uniforms these days well i mean i should say i've spent a lot of time thinking about this more than

00:11:23.920 most people should ever do if you're writing about it stories and books then and newsletters you're

00:11:29.340 going to be spending too much time and also if you're slightly tend to be self-absorbed which maybe

00:11:34.540 someone has said about me at one point in my life for more than one person then you have some sense of

00:11:39.200 who you are and what you want to how you want to communicate yourself and i think i i generally like

00:11:44.240 traditional tailoring and but then loosened up slightly and i think there's a way to be comfortable

00:11:50.480 i like things that are old that i've had for a while i don't like to look like i'm just wearing new

00:11:55.560 clothes and i don't generally think people look their best in new clothes because it's just a little

00:11:59.800 squeaky and that i would say that about things in general and so to me if you have a an easy going

00:12:05.660 sport coat that you've had for a while and like an oxford shirt that not a dress shirt just an oxford

00:12:10.180 collar shirt and a knit tie that will get you looking pretty good in most places at least and

00:12:14.820 i feel comfortable in those clothes and i can kind of ratchet it up slightly into more kind of flannel

00:12:20.460 and a suit if i'm if i'm going somewhere that neat i think requires that and if i'm in the countryside

00:12:26.080 i can kind of loosen that up with chinos and something like a short coat or something and that that

00:12:31.340 kind of makes sense for me and i still feel relaxed in those situations and i think i mean i'll just put

00:12:36.940 a word in for tailored clothing i think a lot of guys try to wear a suit or a sport coat and it's

00:12:42.880 often doesn't fit well and they they get which isn't even their fault they just get it from a place

00:12:47.420 that doesn't specialize in those things or doesn't have a person who helps them get to a point where

00:12:51.880 they feel more comfortable i mean most people get a suit it doesn't feel good and they reject it and

00:12:55.860 they never feel comfortable in it or they don't ever want to wear it but if you get one that does fit

00:12:59.780 well and that you are comfortable and then you just literally wear it four or five times you get

00:13:04.260 to a point where you're like oh i can do this i can i can be myself in this and then kind of evolve

00:13:10.100 from there so i will put a word quick word in for tailoring there because i think so many men look

00:13:14.860 good in it and they often don't don't get to the point where they would be like driving a manual

00:13:19.080 transmission car and you stall once and you're like forget this i'm sticking with an automatic

00:13:22.480 yeah i think i have a similar view to david but i think it's a little my approach i think was formed

00:13:29.200 a little differently than his was so part of what i have always strived to do is like i i always

00:13:37.940 thought about if i look back if i took a photo of myself now and what i'm wearing and i looked back

00:13:42.400 at it in 10 years or 15 years how am i going to feel about that right and what i'm wearing is it going

00:13:48.780 to be relevant to that time in 15 years or am i going to look like a clown and you know i think so

00:13:56.080 part of what i've been always trying to do with my personal style is think about that you know

00:14:00.740 trying to be sort of neutral in a way but still representative of my personality the other thing

00:14:07.160 i've tried to do which i think coggins does really well and i think you know if you talk about the two

00:14:12.060 of us going to the masters together and what we were wearing versus what everyone else was wearing

00:14:16.180 i really try not to give into the sort of social pressure of wearing a certain thing in a certain

00:14:22.120 place and i really try to stay with who i am and what my personal style is and not feel like i need

00:14:31.200 to go into some other zone because i'm going to an event or because something's happening i really

00:14:36.660 try to keep it focused on you know what i feel comfortable in what i feel like represents me

00:14:42.940 and you know try to stay in that zone in a way and not sort of give into the social pressure of

00:14:50.500 you know dressing a certain way which i think there's actually a lot of in the world there's

00:14:55.480 like a lot of pressure to look a certain way and i think you know i'm always just trying to

00:14:59.120 look like myself and that's kind of my goal and those two things together have sort of you know

00:15:04.100 driven me into this place where wow i you know have a pretty defined uniform which i feel great about

00:15:09.800 so like okay the masters example all right most people there i don't even is there like a dress

00:15:14.580 coat of the masters i mean or is it just like you wear nike golf clothes is that what it is

00:15:20.520 it's a very funny situation because it looks like they're gonna these guys think they're gonna get

00:15:25.340 handed a emergency golf situation and they're gonna have to run onto the course and uh hit it on the par

00:15:31.840 three i was thinking about this i was at a golf tournament this weekend i think people also don't

00:15:38.480 know what to wear there because of it's you know augusta national and whatever and so i think they

00:15:45.020 just think well it'll be really safe if i just wear golf clothes you know and they just so a lot of

00:15:50.520 people wearing golf clothes i think is just based on that but then there's also just people wearing

00:15:53.880 golf clothes which doesn't make any sense and then there were coggins and i we did not we were not

00:15:58.280 fitting into like anyone else but it was you know i think we perfectly looked like ourselves

00:16:02.680 so what would you guys wear like would you be easy to spot i think we would be i mean i i've been

00:16:08.420 reminded of this photos that were taken of us so i mean just the age of social media people

00:16:12.940 send this picture to me and ask what coat i was wearing or where that it was i had a master's hat

00:16:17.960 for one thing they have a rope hat different uh one every year and so that's always what we look

00:16:22.720 for together at least what i look for and i was wearing i think some sort of sunglasses and a

00:16:26.740 just a chore coat but i was wearing a knit tie and so i don't know it had a particular look to it and i

00:16:33.300 thought it looked like we were having fun i mean i love the masters but i'm not really a golf person

00:16:37.480 i'm just a master's person if such a thing exists and so we were out there enjoying ourselves

00:16:42.460 and that photo i mean i guess we did stand out but that's only if you care about these types of

00:16:48.840 rarefied exercises anyway michael what were you wearing i i was wearing khakis and an oxford

00:16:54.700 button-down you know like i wasn't wearing i was just wearing something really simple which i wear

00:16:59.280 most days you know i was like very much in the zone of what i typically wear i think we would have

00:17:04.980 stood out a little bit but i also don't think like anyone walking by us would be like what are

00:17:08.920 those guys wearing i think if you really stopped and said like who's different here it would have

00:17:14.500 been you know we might have stood out in that way but i don't think like we were sort of raising any

00:17:19.240 eyebrows like walking around the place you know yeah i know i know the picture you're talking about

00:17:23.820 and what's yeah you're right like you guys didn't look like weirdos like you actually look you know

00:17:27.640 david was wearing a tie like he looks comfortable like that looks appropriate for the masters with the

00:17:31.920 ball cap and then you know michael was like yeah he looks he looks well put he looks put together

00:17:36.840 and he looks comfortable as well and you didn't look like you were wearing that weird synthetic

00:17:41.880 golf stuff that everyone every attorney dad wears these days so david your general when i i describe

00:17:49.680 your uniform is like i think country gentleman that's what i see yeah he just looks relaxed doesn't

00:17:54.940 look overtly just you look comfortable it looks well worn and comfortable would that be a good

00:18:00.140 description like you're ready like it looks like you're ready to go out for a fly fish i think

00:18:04.720 at any moment it's funny when you put when you start to put words on these things because then it

00:18:08.980 sounds like i think one of the points of what we're talking about is trying to be relaxed and

00:18:13.100 when we like dial it in what the recipe is then it sounds more contrived but that's what we're doing

00:18:17.580 so i would like to think that it's like a maybe a country person who comes into the city right so

00:18:22.540 you've got a little bit of a foot in both worlds so but you can handle being having kind of a

00:18:27.180 serious lunch or you could handle like going outside and uh you know looking at birds or

00:18:31.860 something or fly fishing like you mentioned and so i i think you want to have like you i always like

00:18:37.180 people who are interested in kind of two different worlds like i like english guys who love italian

00:18:42.100 tailoring because they they try to dress like italians but they end up just looking more english

00:18:46.240 but i love that and italian guys who love the traditions of being english you know these italians

00:18:50.900 revere the english traditions and when they try to dress like them i mean they can't look english

00:18:55.240 are just going to look more italian which i love that so i i'm into all those worlds kind of coming

00:19:00.040 together and and with a certain amount of ease i mean i used to like things that were fancier maybe

00:19:04.880 or i thought i had to get really serious dress shirts or really serious tailored clothing especially

00:19:09.280 when i worked more in midtown but i don't it's too hard to keep that stuff up for me i don't want to

00:19:14.160 get all that stuff laundered and pressed and so i found or even if i'm traveling it doesn't travel so

00:19:18.920 well so i like fabrics that can kind of absorb heavy wear and i just i like to have you know nice enough

00:19:24.680 things but i like to wear them and live in them and if they elbows start to get a little thin that's

00:19:29.640 fine with me all right so michael how would you describe yours uniform david's like country mouse

00:19:34.400 goes to the city what would be yours uh i don't i don't know that i have a setting uh i really love

00:19:40.860 uh well-made classic american things like i a lot of times wear jeans and a oxford cloth button down and a

00:19:49.680 you know navy merino sweater and you know that's kind of like my zone i you know i have a couple

00:19:56.140 jackets that i figured out that i love like i'll wear a barber coat or i'll wear

00:19:59.820 a chore coat or i'll wear you know unstructured sport coat but i don't really i'm not as tailored maybe

00:20:06.460 as david but i do love these sort of tried and true classic things the shetland sweater and

00:20:11.460 you know leather you know leather brogues and things like that so that's kind of my zone canvas sneakers

00:20:17.520 i have like one canvas sneaker i'll wear and one pair of leather shoes that i wear and one pair of

00:20:23.600 boots and you know one type of jeans and one khaki and so i just kind of figured out like all those

00:20:28.780 classic items and i like really well-made things i like to think about value in a different way where

00:20:33.820 you maybe spend a little bit more up front and buy something of better quality that'll last you a

00:20:39.220 long time and like david i love to wear my things a lot so you know i love to like you know wear

00:20:45.980 things over and over and and really you know spend time with them and live in them and that's to me

00:20:51.360 very comforting so you guys are in your 40s and you mentioned earlier this is like a uniform isn't

00:20:56.840 something you can really establish in your 20s so how did you kind of decide like i've arrived this is

00:21:03.060 this is it this is the look i'm gonna have until i'm i'm buried in the ground well it evolves you know

00:21:10.240 and i think one thing that's interesting when you look at this is that you you can tell different

00:21:14.300 times in your life and different things you're trying to do so when i i think when i really had

00:21:19.100 to when i was working in advertising and was in midtown a lot i and i had to get up and get dressed

00:21:25.800 for serious people i was looking for making the fewest decisions but with the rough core of what

00:21:32.640 i was trying to do so for me that was like gray flannel trousers a blue shirt a light blue shirt and a

00:21:38.840 solid tie or a knit tie and then the only decision i had to make was what sport coat i wanted what

00:21:43.120 pattern sport coat so that pattern was the was a kind of variable and everything else was set and i

00:21:49.340 really started to think a lot about it at that time i was probably in my mid-30s then and then as i

00:21:54.300 evolved i that was a little more tailored than i wanted to be i i like to not worry so much about

00:22:00.520 taking care of the clothes i just want to be able to toss them in the wash i don't even want to iron

00:22:04.320 them i just want them so then i got into more like corduroys and moleskin trousers and oxford cloth shirts

00:22:11.000 like michael was saying and that started to make sense sometimes you don't realize it until you've

00:22:15.480 worn it for a while i mean i talk a lot about how much we can learn about our clothing and dressing

00:22:20.560 when we travel because we have a limited number of things and so sometimes that sets you off towards

00:22:25.220 the uniform because you just have one sport coat or a couple pairs of whatever it is and you start

00:22:30.500 to wear them on most days you know like oh wait a minute this is something i can do this you get

00:22:34.760 back to to new york or wherever you live and you're like oh i just want to stick with this this is

00:22:38.820 very reassuring i don't want all the clothes that are sitting in my closet i want to just stick with

00:22:42.660 what i had and that's that can be a good good way to to know how little you need or to learn about

00:22:48.220 what suits you we're gonna take a quick break for your word from our sponsors and now back to the

00:22:54.980 show here's a question i've seen that i've noticed in the past i wouldn't say like five years like my

00:23:00.400 second half of my 30s you know i mean 40s one thing i've noticed personally is i'm starting to pick

00:23:05.020 up stuff that my dad part of my dad's uniform that i remember i'll pick it like this looks good

00:23:09.940 and i'll put it on like i look like my dad when he was my age because my dad had a uniform his

00:23:14.100 uniform he was a federal game warden so he had to go in the office it was pretty casual it was like

00:23:18.020 wrangler boot cut jeans with a pair of cowboy boots and a peak polo shirt from lands in with

00:23:23.120 this like awesome looking belt and it just looks solid like i got pictures like that's just a just

00:23:27.260 it's a solid solid look and sometimes every now and then i'll pick up a polisher like this looks

00:23:31.220 awesome then i look at it oh this is why i think it looks awesome my dad had a shirt just like this

00:23:35.460 i'm curious did your dads have personal uniforms and how do you think they've influenced your own

00:23:40.380 personal uniform cognizant i think you can my i didn't really i'm not like very influenced by

00:23:46.040 what my father wore although he definitely wore you know very much the same thing all the time but

00:23:51.100 my dad was like very in a very different sort of line of work and career and and basically did

00:23:57.160 you know owned a construction company and so for me it was like it was a very different

00:24:01.500 thing than what my life and whatever now so it doesn't i don't i don't feel like i'm gravitating

00:24:06.720 that direction but you know i think a lot of these things you know because i never learned any of it

00:24:11.120 from my father i feel like it's a lot of it's just like inherent in people right you're sort of you

00:24:15.680 just like have it or you don't in a way but i i'll throw that to you i'm sure you have a good

00:24:21.280 well my i mean it's funny my dad is very stylish and a great dresser but he's much more adventuresome

00:24:27.900 than i am often it's the other way around where the the child is more adventuresome but he he loves

00:24:32.580 color and pattern and he'll wear all sorts of things that i are way too bold for me and he kind

00:24:38.360 of gives me a hard time he thinks i'm too conservative he thinks i'm overdressed which again

00:24:42.840 is not the way these things generally are and i think i like the fact though that as a as a young man

00:24:48.140 he as a boy really he took me to you know the polo store in minneapolis where i grew up and and there

00:24:53.460 was a man who worked there and a guy named paul and you know they they taught me things and put

00:24:57.940 me into clothes that i didn't know if i was ready for and i have this old herringbone sport coat that

00:25:02.900 was you know union made in america thing is like crazy now if you see it huge shoulder pads but it

00:25:08.580 and i didn't like it as a kid and now i see it i actually had a friend take the shoulder pads out and

00:25:13.480 i'm still you know wearing it now you know 35 years later and i think it's good to learn i mean

00:25:19.520 what i learned from my dad is is a lot of lessons and and the importance of knowing lessons even if

00:25:24.960 ultimately you react against those kind of guardrails and i think now we don't take the time to learn

00:25:31.960 sometimes we don't take the time to learn those lessons and to know what we're reacting against i feel

00:25:36.680 like people it's sort of a free-for-all out there and it helps to kind of know the history of some of

00:25:42.300 these things and often we do like you're saying where i'd come back to stuff our fathers did or

00:25:45.840 something you'd see or you're like oh right i like this from that movie or that era maybe it's time to

00:25:50.220 look at this more clearly and then you know you go on ebay for a few hours and you you try to get to

00:25:55.020 the bottom of it you know there it is interesting like and and we're saying you know you theoretically

00:26:00.540 you can't have a uniform if you're young but it's like anything else like you can it is possible

00:26:06.700 and a lot of times like and especially if you look at you know the people that i know that grew up in

00:26:11.740 italy and the culture of dressing in italy and fathers and sons and the way that that education

00:26:17.800 happens between fathers and sons uh it can you know really shape someone's personal style to the

00:26:23.860 point of like they are very young and they know exactly what they like and they have sort of a lot

00:26:28.360 of perspective and you know that's a big cultural thing that happens in italy so it can happen and

00:26:33.520 it can happen here in america it can happen anywhere someone could figure it out very young and just

00:26:38.460 be like this is what i'm gonna wear and and they have it so you know i think it's it's anything is

00:26:43.080 possible it doesn't there's no perfect path to any of this stuff or right or wrong way to do it

00:26:48.500 no and i think something too i've noticed as i've gotten older so when i was younger i was more willing

00:26:53.800 to take risks with things i'd buy something like that looks cool and it's kind of flashy or whatever but

00:26:58.900 now i don't i'm not drawn to that i'm not i'm not about like blending in but like i don't want to

00:27:04.960 like stand out too much does that make sense oh of course i mean that's a huge you know there's a

00:27:10.940 time in your your life when you experiment more when you try to discover more things which is

00:27:15.480 really exciting i mean i i think about you know what if you live in new york and you start to you

00:27:20.100 go to a lot of concerts and clubs and you try movies that you don't you know haven't given a

00:27:24.920 lot of thought to because maybe there was a good review but you didn't even think much about it and

00:27:29.280 now it's like wait a minute if i'm doing something i'm researching what i do am i going to

00:27:33.320 commit to watching this tv show or to buying this thing or or and that's that's just part of i think

00:27:39.200 how we um yeah how we invite new things into our lives we just have so much already there that you're

00:27:46.940 not going to start reading a biography on someone that's going to take you three weeks if unless you

00:27:51.680 really are ready for it yeah when i was in high school i went through a the neo swing movement thing

00:27:58.600 and i was like i just had like gabardine you know camp shirts and like bowling shirts and i had a

00:28:03.760 pair of i got these things they're they're hideous well i thought they were pretty cool at the time it

00:28:07.960 was a pair of black and white wingtip doc martens but like the white part was black and white check

00:28:13.580 and i thought i thought it looked awesome i think i wore them to a prom

00:28:17.300 well i mean the the classic situation is when someone looks like they've got it all figured out and

00:28:24.460 they're like 17 and they're walking out and you can tell they feel like they're the coolest person

00:28:29.160 you know in in the zip code and you're just like wait till you see the photos of this in five years

00:28:35.180 yeah yeah wait can i just say that i i was looking at i found some some profile on tiktok and this kid

00:28:43.500 he talks a lot about fashion he's got like a fairly significant amount of followers and his his videos

00:28:49.220 get a lot of likes and he you know i'm i was kind of interested as you know someone that feels fairly

00:28:54.780 well versed and in the stuff he's covering you know what he was saying and and he you know he's

00:29:00.320 confident in what he's talking about and again he's like got a good following and then there's one thing

00:29:05.560 where he does a tour of my room and i think it's like his dorm room and it's you know in a way like

00:29:11.540 it's it's cute and like it's cool that he's doing it but also like it's very much like a college

00:29:16.440 kid's room and you know he's like trying really hard to like have this you know sensibility and

00:29:22.640 personal style and you know with furniture and all this stuff and design and you know i can't help but

00:29:28.520 to sort of think it's you know amusing in a way because he's so young he doesn't really know

00:29:33.780 but he's speaking with so much conviction and he feels so strongly about what he's what he's saying

00:29:40.380 in the world and it's not a judgment on anyone it's you know that's i feel like part of youth is you

00:29:45.280 do feel very confident in the things you're doing and then when you look back at them you're like

00:29:48.560 wow money money boss tones like i don't know if that was the aesthetic that i should have been going

00:29:53.340 for no i like that michael like that heuristic you use and trying to figure out your uniform is like

00:29:58.640 will this if i look at a picture of this 10 20 years from now what's my reaction going to be going

00:30:03.440 to be like yeah it looks good or i'm gonna be like oh man that's embarrassing and i think my choices

00:30:08.980 when i was in high school i'm like that was that was dumb but i mean it made sense at the time

00:30:13.080 but so that's that's the famous thing though but as soon as you're explaining to a young person you

00:30:16.760 have to be like actually it wasn't just me everybody was doing this or then you know you're

00:30:20.700 in trouble right because then it's like you're swept up in something and you couldn't pull yourself

00:30:25.060 outside of it or see yourself outside of it where you're like no that's just the lapel width at the

00:30:30.360 time or this band was huge or you should have seen michael cain everyone was doing it and that's

00:30:35.640 usually uh i mean but it's human you know and i think that's what's so great about these

00:30:40.140 conversations i mean i always love when someone gets really obsessed with something because even

00:30:45.040 if it's i mean i remember my friend telling me earnestly in high school he's like i only listen

00:30:49.660 to pearl jam that's the only thing i listen to of course that lasted for like six months but that's

00:30:54.440 what it means to be 16 you know you have these strong feelings and it doesn't stop there by the

00:30:59.360 way because you know guys are saving all their money to buy some watch or car or whatever else it is

00:31:04.260 or sneakers that then they either just sit in their you know closet or they kind of resell them

00:31:08.940 so okay let's talk about how you guys can establish their own personal uniform it sounds

00:31:12.540 like it's an organic evolutionary process but like where do you start say you want to be a

00:31:15.740 little more intentional about this like all right you're 35 40 you want to you want to establish

00:31:20.260 your look where would you guys recommend starting well i mean these are big questions i i think i mean

00:31:26.660 i love certain stores and certain types of clothes and and i think it's important that you have

00:31:31.400 kind of a few basic things that look good on most men and i think michael alluded to like the

00:31:36.260 unstructured sport code and i think that's really a good place to start and i think every every man

00:31:41.120 looks good and you know it can be wash cotton it can be a little more um a little it can be tweed it

00:31:48.300 can be whatever you like but i think an unstructured sport code is something you can wear with with you

00:31:53.200 know dress trousers something you can wear with chinos something you can wear with jeans and so i

00:31:56.480 would i would look for that and you can you can you can go to drake's you can go to j crew you can go

00:32:01.000 to ralph warren but you can or just start the process and find see one that you like and start

00:32:05.720 looking on ebay for cheaper ones if you want but i think that that's a really good place to start

00:32:10.160 because that that's something that that can you know kind of be part of your arsenal in a really

00:32:15.320 useful way and i think people will like how it looks on you i mean there's a reason these clothes

00:32:20.580 have been men have been wearing them for a hundred years like it works it's effective it's like you know

00:32:26.180 why does the martini exist like it's a good equation these things make sense way before we've

00:32:31.080 been around and i hope way after we're around and so uh i mean get a good sport coat all right so

00:32:36.400 start off with the sport coat is your recommendation yeah absolutely but one that you can you know when

00:32:41.600 i say unstructured i mean like not a lot of padding in the shoulders and in the chest and so that means

00:32:46.680 like you can even sometimes roll it up if you're in the south i mean look at sid mashburn site i mean

00:32:51.000 these guys live for that sort of thing not just the formal suiting but the an actual

00:32:55.280 sport code i think is really really something that can that can go with you wherever you go

00:32:59.880 michael how about you like where would be your starting point well i just want to say david's

00:33:04.160 starting point is like personal uniform 301 and i would start it i would start at 101 i think the

00:33:09.140 sport codes like maybe advanced lesson you know a couple a couple courses down the line but you know

00:33:15.480 i think this sid mashburn reference is a great one there are places that you can go to there's a lot

00:33:20.860 of great men's stores left in the united states that you can go into and talk to them about what

00:33:26.980 you feel comfortable in and what you like and they can help guide you like it's pretty difficult to go

00:33:33.000 to astray at sid mashburn they're going to help you my my personal recommendation is like there's a lot

00:33:39.700 of things out in the world that have been fundamentally the same for a long time or very consistent over a long

00:33:46.020 period of time like the barber coat like the 501 like certain you know they're you know certain

00:33:52.620 brands like my favorite shoe companies crockett and jones the shoes have sort of never changed

00:33:57.900 and to me that's like a good bet like it's like find those companies and wear those things that are

00:34:04.220 pretty classic it's hard to mess that up in a way the other thing is you know i think you want to

00:34:09.180 think about when you feel the best and what you you know if it's like figure the mental images of

00:34:15.740 yourself where you look the best or what were the scenarios where you felt like you looked really

00:34:20.840 good and try to build on that and replicate that and expand that i think that's a good place to start

00:34:26.500 i think that's a good idea so you're not trying to play dress up when you're trying to establish

00:34:30.220 uniform you don't want to feel like like you're going to prom or you're going to a black tie wedding

00:34:34.600 i think it's the opposite of that you want to feel like you are yourself you know one thing that

00:34:41.120 that that's a really good point that michael makes about enduring design that have been mostly

00:34:46.220 unchanged and if you're if you're feeling less kind of formal than a sport coat i think of the chore

00:34:50.380 jacket is really a useful thing almost every company makes a good one now and that's something

00:34:55.360 that you can wear most days and you can even dress that up or down i mean i wore it with a knit tie

00:35:00.060 to the masters but i think most people are not going to do that but that's a really nice

00:35:04.300 everyday piece if we're speaking in like you know style terms that you can get a lot of use out of

00:35:10.580 and that that will go a lot of places and i think you also want to when you're thinking about the

00:35:16.000 uniform you're thinking about something that's repeatable so that's like the old brooks brothers

00:35:19.880 oxford cloth shirt and you buy a stack of them but you're also thinking about an investment that

00:35:23.840 michael alluded to earlier that you'd have for a long time so if you get a pair of crockett and jones

00:35:28.220 chelsea boots like that's an incredible thing it's a fair amount of money and then you have

00:35:33.160 them for a decade and that's great or alden's or whatever it is and so you kind of want to pick

00:35:37.180 your spots about something like a lacoste shirt that's great like get a stack of them or if they

00:35:42.640 go on sale or whatever and then you're also getting you know like the best the jeans you really love

00:35:47.320 i feel like when you get something that you talk yourself out of or you save a little money then it

00:35:52.020 just ends up unused and you really want to believe in what you're wearing and care about it and then

00:35:56.920 you're gonna then you're gonna wear it more yeah so david in the the newsletter you had about

00:36:01.880 establishing a uniform you talk about base pieces i guess you for you like a unstructured sport coat

00:36:06.420 or chore coat could be a base piece and michael for you like a base piece could be like that

00:36:11.300 that oxford button down could be a base piece that you can add on to thing that's consistent and you can

00:36:17.440 add on to it or take away from it to vary the look depending on your situation yeah i i would say

00:36:23.500 you know even if you want to go to uniqlo and buy button down shirts and khakis from uniqlo and

00:36:28.580 socks and underwear and whatever else and then you maybe spend a little bit more money you know to

00:36:33.240 david's point like buying a shirt jacket or buying a nice sweater or buying a nice pair of shoes or an

00:36:38.700 accessory a bag you know those things where you can i think you can sort of step up and then you know i

00:36:45.240 think then your uniform becomes like the base is like the a couple types of pair of pants that you like

00:36:50.660 and then you mix them with like a couple shirt jackets a sport coat a you know a sweater all

00:36:56.480 these things and and that's how you sort of like build the the variety of your uniform that's that's

00:37:02.420 my take on it i have to say like when i was a young guy and moved to new york like i was living in

00:37:07.600 in men's stores even though i wasn't couldn't afford those clothes like i and i think there's

00:37:12.100 something to be said for that and now we've got the you know instagram in our pocket but i i like to go

00:37:16.840 to barney's and i like to go to bergdorf goodman and i would talk to the guys who work there

00:37:20.360 and and they understood what my stage in life and they didn't put pressure on me and at a good store

00:37:26.360 they won't put pressure on you and if you if you go into to ralph lauren and look at the way the the

00:37:31.060 they have the kind of mannequins rigged up or what the what's in the windows it gives you a sense of

00:37:35.900 kind of how they view things and and you can see what you like from that you can see how much it costs

00:37:40.100 you can see what you think is makes sense for you or what doesn't make sense but it's good to do

00:37:44.820 those things i mean i i go on the sid mashburn website even at this stage in my life and look

00:37:49.480 at how they have a clever way that they show each kind of sport coat if you scroll over it it's got

00:37:54.960 a shirt and tie and then if you scroll over it again it's like with no tie so you can kind of see it

00:37:58.540 worn two different ways and i still get ideas about that or see what i like and ask myself well why do i

00:38:03.400 like that so much or what that's interesting and i'd never thought about doing something that way and i

00:38:07.980 think that that's a good thing that you can still learn and see and and even surprise yourself i mean

00:38:14.020 like you probably look better in a light pink shirt than you think i mean a lot of guys do and i didn't

00:38:19.240 wear pink for a long time and then i did and then i was sort of changed my life or i didn't wear brown

00:38:23.160 and now i wear brown almost exclusively like you do want to give yourself room to evolve and i think

00:38:27.820 that's what we're talking about it isn't like once you set your your uniform you can never change of

00:38:32.820 course these things can rotate or you can wear something and just make a little change i think when i was

00:38:37.140 talking about like if you have a corduroy suit or cords are good like that's a good fabric and i

00:38:42.740 recommend like finding cords that you like and as maybe a corduroy sport coat that you like and then

00:38:47.500 you just it's not something you have to be delicate with or depending on where you live like a harris tweed

00:38:52.180 coat like these are things that are are great and you can get cheap ones on ebay and and really kind

00:38:56.980 of live in it for a while and and get it dirty throw it in the laundry i do all sorts of stuff i've put

00:39:02.760 seersucker coats that seem too kind of precious i just threw it in the laundry and then they were

00:39:07.180 twice as wrinkly and then i was felt better about it oddly so you mentioned that getting inspiration

00:39:11.820 like going into men's stores like for me early on like you know late 20s early 30s i would go to

00:39:17.120 blogs i would go to continuous lane i take ivy dye workwear dye i mean i and that's where i would

00:39:24.040 get my style inspiration i feel like that is has it all moved to instagram now where's your guys

00:39:28.540 like where do you recommend guys going to get solid inspiration because i even i feel like

00:39:32.660 a lot of the magazines they're not like the style advice or it's just it's not very good i don't

00:39:38.300 that's my it's just like here are the 20 boots you need this winter and it's like this is not useful

00:39:43.460 for me because i think it's kind of all over there's there are still sites like dye workwear that are

00:39:49.620 interesting there are still sites out there that have a much more edited point of view which i think

00:39:55.780 is more helpful if you identify with that um and then it's like a mix of of instagram and all these

00:40:02.620 other things that will help serve as an inspiration point i think it's the mainstream fashion media is

00:40:09.000 a little bit different now than it was and it's driven by different things and part of that's like

00:40:12.960 commerce and part of it's much more fashion with a capital f than maybe it used to be used to be much

00:40:19.380 more about like service and educating guys and sort of classic style and now it's much more fashion

00:40:26.040 driven so i think but you need to find the people that you can identify with and if that's like matt

00:40:31.140 pranick and william brown project or or whatever it is and and then you sort of figure out all right

00:40:35.860 these are the people that i feel like i want to model my personal style after you can sort of go

00:40:41.200 from there i think that's a really good point that michael makes and i also think the danger of

00:40:46.260 instagram like i really love the original photos when i say original like 15 or 20 years ago photos from

00:40:52.520 piti womo where it was actual italian men and what they were wearing or japanese buyers and what they

00:40:57.700 were wearing now with social media kind of accelerated to such a speed those things feel

00:41:04.600 often very mannered very theatrical very self-aware and very ridiculous to me so i think you have to be

00:41:11.740 careful like you don't want to dress like you were expecting to be photographed like that's that's

00:41:16.300 craziness you know that that's not a way to live in the world unless you're really you know nick

00:41:20.220 wooster and there's only one nick wooster so you can look at these places but you it's sort of like

00:41:25.380 you look at them and then you pour little milk on it to like mellow out the coffee right because

00:41:30.280 it's just too some of these things are very intense and these guys are are getting closed and experiencing

00:41:36.320 them in a way that isn't really you know it's like they're living in a photo shoot and if you're in a

00:41:40.660 photo shoot some things make sense and then when you're out in the world they make a lot less sense

00:41:44.440 you know and i think you want to i think one of the things we're talking about is like where you where

00:41:49.220 you're comfortable and what your life requires like are you going to meetings are you you know

00:41:53.880 physically active the way your dad was brett if he's you know going out as a you're working in

00:41:58.680 the forest service or whatever it is that people need to use or are they going to be walking in mud

00:42:03.880 are they going to be in a boardroom are they going to be reassuring investors and then they're going to

00:42:08.080 be doing things very differently and that's um i mean if people say things don't matter the clothes

00:42:14.140 don't matter just think about the people that you want working for you and how you would want your

00:42:18.020 lawyer or accountant to dress if you're getting your your uh your your taxes done do you want the

00:42:23.580 guy to be wearing a metallica shirt i'm not sure i i think it's like the if you have good personal

00:42:28.700 style it's a bonus for you if you know i think it's not it's not about losing points or you know

00:42:34.400 it's it's about you have an opportunity to present yourself as unique or special or different or

00:42:39.760 whatever that is that to me is like the big win with having good personal style it's not about like

00:42:45.740 conformity and fitting in and making sure you're dressed appropriately for your role

00:42:50.380 uh when you guys find a piece of clothing that you think is going to be a part of your uniform

00:42:54.280 for a while do you buy multiples of it of course i mean that's like a huge deal like when it or if

00:43:01.360 something seems like it's going to be shut down or i mean or if you just know something's great like

00:43:06.240 when they were still making brooks brothers oxford cloth button-down shirts in in america and you you

00:43:12.340 knew that and maybe there that was a delicate balance there i got a stack of them i mean it has to do

00:43:18.460 with where you are in your life and and what your priorities are in your budget but if you find a

00:43:23.160 bottle of wine you like man get some and if you find if you're traveling and you see espadrilles or

00:43:27.940 if you even master's hats it's yeah get on that i like the wine reference that's pretty interesting i

00:43:34.140 mean you'll be happy if you buy a few cases of some wine that you love you'll be happy in five years

00:43:38.940 that you did it for me like buying a couple or buying things in my uniform all depends on

00:43:44.480 with the brand and what it is and what it costs but i know that you know like brands like patagonia

00:43:50.160 if you love something from patagonia they phase out things all the time so if you if there's a jacket

00:43:56.320 you love and you wear it all the time it's worth buying a few because they probably won't carry it

00:44:01.400 through the other time i'm buying like multiples is you know i wear these canvas sneakers from muji

00:44:06.700 and their website they rarely have them in stock and the stores are it's always like sporadic if i

00:44:14.540 can find them so when i do find them i buy five pairs at the same time and they're not expensive

00:44:18.980 but i'm like i don't want to risk you know i don't trust them enough almost to be able to always have

00:44:25.100 them you know so and like i i used to buy this sweater every year from this store in alabama that i

00:44:31.140 love called harrison limited and they would sell this like super super soft lambs will shetland

00:44:36.400 sweater and i would buy every fall i would buy one it was like my annual thing and i would sort of call

00:44:41.160 the shop and be like what colors do you have and then i'd say all right send me the green one

00:44:44.940 and they'd mail it to me and then they stopped carrying the sweater and i'm like all right now i

00:44:50.280 need to figure out like who made the sweater where else can i find it and you know i would have been

00:44:55.060 better off just buying a few at you know not just dragging it out yeah i had a pair there's a pair of

00:45:00.560 runners or sneakers that i got they're like a replica of some vintage french army sneaker and i

00:45:06.900 love it and they stopped making whoever decided to make it stop making it i can't i need a new pair

00:45:11.360 and i'm out of luck it's and it was a good look it's that's like a classic situation where you

00:45:17.080 you think something like and for me even like fishing gear like certain waiters that when i was

00:45:23.340 younger they seem like too expensive and then ever since then the waiters have been getting crazy so

00:45:27.660 i'm like on a mad hunt to find these 20 year old waiters which of course doesn't work or

00:45:32.040 waiting boots and and if you see something you like well i mean it's actually interesting because

00:45:38.020 michael was talking earlier about these companies that continue to have the same product that's like

00:45:41.880 a good barometer of the values of a place if they do something well and they you know that they're

00:45:48.140 going to continue to have that it's the same way if you go to some beloved restaurant and you know

00:45:51.960 you can get this great dish that they're going to keep doing that and that that that that's a sign

00:45:56.340 of of what they how they want you to interact with them that you they want you to trust them that they

00:46:01.000 want you to come back and that you can always get this barber jacket these red wing boots these 501s

00:46:07.520 that that tells you a lot about those places how do you know if your personal uniform should change

00:46:13.460 is it something intentional or does it just kind of happen naturally you just find i'm wearing this

00:46:17.740 thing a lot this year this is part of my uniform now is that how it happens yeah i think it's i think

00:46:23.540 part of that is like recognizing the wins when they're happening and saying you know that i feel

00:46:28.440 good wearing this you know i should just i should stop thinking about i should stop spending time

00:46:33.940 thinking about you know what i'm going to wear all the time and stick with the things i feel good

00:46:38.560 about i think you just start to sort of be it's a very liberating sense in a way where you're like i've

00:46:44.120 arrived at this and i know i like it i don't have to worry about it's one less thing i need to worry

00:46:48.660 about from now on right and you start to start to just drop things away and then you know repeat the

00:46:55.220 things that work really well for you yeah i mean sometimes i notice that my clothes have shrunk now i

00:47:00.420 know it's just like your body changes right it's not the clothes obviously and you you make some change

00:47:05.680 about what makes sense for what you're doing i mean if you have a kid or you're traveling to us and

00:47:10.640 you're in a hot place and something works or something doesn't i mean some of what we're

00:47:14.580 talking about is like where design and function converge right and when something makes sense

00:47:21.380 because it i don't know you're carrying a camera in your pocket so you need bigger bigger pockets i

00:47:26.100 mean that's literally how some of these things happen a lot of the clothes we're talking about

00:47:29.920 have existed for a long time and that's why you know a safari jacket or a chore jacket or something

00:47:35.360 that the army developed was to solve certain problems and you might have those problems you're

00:47:41.000 carrying certain things and you need clothes that meet your purposes and maybe your you know your

00:47:46.500 coloration changes like my beard is gray now that's great and that changes things like what colors i

00:47:51.720 should wear i don't look the same as i used to and those and you want to and that's all right you want

00:47:56.540 to evolve that way and i think it's natural that your clothes change as you get you know get older and

00:48:02.200 your your kind of place in the world changes and that's something to be embraced i think so let's

00:48:07.000 say some guys listening to this and think okay i want to start developing my personal you know refine

00:48:10.620 it parting advice like where's one thing they can start doing today to start making that happen for

00:48:15.420 themselves well i think you got to think about what you like your comfort level and what you're

00:48:20.500 trying to do i mean i always encourage guys to dress up a little bit i just think it's it's nice to

00:48:25.580 try harder than to try less hard and if you try a little harder than in the long run all that will

00:48:30.440 become easier you set a higher bar for yourself and so i think it's nice to dress up a little bit

00:48:34.860 i mean i i think it's you know it doesn't mean you have to live with it forever i think one of the

00:48:40.960 things we're talking about is is a little bit of experimentation which is natural and then finding

00:48:45.160 a new level for yourself you know i think a big part of this is you know what what you could do today

00:48:50.040 is be open-minded to looking better and to putting in a little bit more effort and and dressing a

00:48:56.620 little bit better and starting to do it and make it a ritual and and i think once you do you'll

00:49:02.340 appreciate that you have put in that effort and i think that goes a long way and just being maybe a

00:49:07.260 little bit more introspective about who you want to be and how you want to project yourself i think

00:49:12.040 would be a great place to start well guys it's been a great conversation is there some place people

00:49:16.360 can go to learn more about your respective work well yeah i mean my my book the optimist uh the case for

00:49:21.560 the fly fishing life which we discussed on a previous episode i've gotten a lot of good feedback

00:49:25.500 about that oh oh that's sweet i'm glad to hear that thank you that's that's out now still out and

00:49:30.200 the paperback is coming soon and then my newsletter the contender comes out every week and then i have

00:49:35.960 the podcast with michael central division our conversation every week too which you can get

00:49:39.960 from either subscribing to the contender or his newsletter a continuous lean michael i'll lead you

00:49:44.780 right into it yeah oh thank you david that was very very well done i wish i had a book to say that i

00:49:50.100 had written but uh all i have is a newsletter and it's just acl.news is my newsletter well michael

00:49:56.600 williams david coggins thanks for his time it's been a pleasure thanks thanks brett my guests today

00:50:02.860 were david coggins and michael williams check out the respective newsletters david's can be found at

00:50:06.920 the contender.substack.com and michael's can be found at acl.news if you subscribe to either of the

00:50:12.780 newsletters you can get access to their podcast central division where they talk about style fly fishing

00:50:17.480 golf you name it they discuss it and make sure to check out our show notes at aom.is slash

00:50:22.640 personal uniform we've linked to some of the brands and clothing pieces mentioned in the show

00:50:26.380 as well as that iconic picture of david and michael at the masters we discussed check it out

00:50:31.080 aom.is slash personal uniform

00:50:33.140 well that wraps up another edition of the a1 podcast make sure to check out our website at

00:50:44.320 art of manless.com we find our podcast archives well thousands of articles written over the years

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00:51:16.220 remind you only listen to a1 podcast but put what you've heard into action

The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

Developing Your Personal Uniform

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