The Art of Manliness - Embracing the Strive State

00:00:00.000 We're at McKay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast.

00:00:11.240 We often think happiness will be found in the completion of a goal.

00:00:14.400 We often think happiness will be found in ease and comfort.

00:00:17.200 My guest says real joy is found in the journey rather than the destination.

00:00:21.380 And that if difficulty and discomfort are part of that journey, that's all the better.

00:00:25.240 Dr. Adam Frazier is a peak performance researcher and the author of Strive,

00:00:28.500 Embracing the Gift of Struggle.

00:00:30.520 Today on the show, we talk about what Adam calls the strive state,

00:00:33.920 where we have to grow and be courageous to tackle a meaningful challenge

00:00:36.720 and why the state is the source of the greatest fulfillment in life.

00:00:40.420 We discuss why we often resist embracing the strive state

00:00:43.260 and what happens when we don't have to struggle in life.

00:00:45.880 We also talk about what successful strivers do differently.

00:00:49.060 After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash strive.

00:00:58.500 All right, Dr. Adam Frazier, welcome back to the show.

00:01:09.580 It is great to be here, especially for the second time.

00:01:13.760 Yes, we had you on last time, it was last year,

00:01:16.000 to talk about your idea of microtransitions.

00:01:19.120 It was a really popular episode, really resonated with people.

00:01:22.280 So the idea of microtransitions is those moments when you're switching between,

00:01:26.880 you know, when you're at the office, going from one client to the next,

00:01:29.780 you have that space in between, what you can do in that space to get you ready

00:01:33.680 to move into that next space.

00:01:35.900 The one that really resonated with me was those microtransitions you have with your kids. 0.98

00:01:40.380 You're coming home from work, you have that space between office and home.

00:01:44.020 What are you going to do to get ready so you can be your best self?

00:01:47.340 You got another book out that I really enjoyed.

00:01:50.500 And I think there's some connection to,

00:01:52.220 I think we'll bring in some of the microtransition things as well.

00:01:54.760 It's called Strive, Embracing the Gift of Struggle.

00:01:58.360 So you are a human research, you research human performance.

00:02:01.440 That's what you do.

00:02:02.140 And you consult for companies and individuals and how to perform their best.

00:02:06.000 And in your book, Strive, you take readers through a surprising discovery

00:02:10.720 you and your team made.

00:02:13.000 You guys are researching the flow state and you wanted to see what are the benefits

00:02:16.400 of flow state and performance.

00:02:18.300 But then you guys discovered something and it was really surprising.

00:02:22.600 Yeah, it was surprising for us.

00:02:25.040 Yeah.

00:02:25.700 So first, for those who aren't familiar, walk us through what is the flow state

00:02:29.440 and its benefits?

00:02:30.580 And then what did you all discover in your research?

00:02:33.520 Yeah, well, flow is also known as being in the zone.

00:02:36.640 And we tend to, whenever we think of that, we go straight to sport.

00:02:40.200 Like we think of Michael Jordan.

00:02:42.780 What was that game where someone criticized him and said he couldn't shoot three pointers?

00:02:47.280 So he went out and shot like, you know, a ridiculous amount or where he was at the foul line

00:02:53.800 and the other team were giving him, were trash talking him.

00:02:57.320 And he said, I'm going to shoot this one with my eyes closed.

00:03:00.840 And he closed his eyes and just went straight in.

00:03:03.500 And we think of that high performance state where you literally kind of can't miss.

00:03:08.380 And what flow is made up of is you're in a situation that has high challenge.

00:03:13.240 Like you don't get flow watching TV.

00:03:15.220 So you've got to have some sort of challenge in front of you.

00:03:18.380 You need to bring all your skills.

00:03:21.000 So a high level of skill is needed.

00:03:23.560 But it's a state where there's high level of enjoyment, high level of interest.

00:03:28.280 Like you're really engaged and time starts to distort.

00:03:32.260 So often, I'm sure you would experience that on podcasts where, you know, it's an hour

00:03:37.600 and it feels like it was five minutes.

00:03:39.760 That's flow.

00:03:41.000 It's just where you're totally absorbed and lost in this environment.

00:03:46.540 Now, we were studying that and we were looking at multiple different groups and how they got

00:03:52.300 into flow.

00:03:53.540 But what came out of it is they said, like, you know, that flow state's awesome and I love

00:03:59.700 it.

00:03:59.840 But the experiences that build my self-esteem and build my skill the most have high challenge,

00:04:08.320 high skill, time distorts, but it's low enjoyment, low interest.

00:04:14.700 So it was kind of those experiences where it's like, I don't really want to be doing this.

00:04:20.820 This is really hard.

00:04:21.880 This is really difficult.

00:04:23.060 But I have to bring my A game to this.

00:04:27.000 And, you know, if you think about examples, they said I had to have this really hard conversation

00:04:31.440 with a staff member or I was doing this presentation and I was dreading it because I thought I was

00:04:38.100 going to mess it up, but I nailed it.

00:04:40.220 Or even, you know, I have to give my team member feedback and I don't really want to give them

00:04:45.440 this feedback because I know they're going to find it challenging.

00:04:47.820 So what we discovered is people said flow's brilliant, but the stuff that really evolves

00:04:55.400 me and makes me get better are those sorts of situations where they're challenging and

00:05:00.880 I don't really want to do them.

00:05:02.260 But afterwards, I kind of look at myself with amazement of, I can't believe I handled that.

00:05:07.840 So that's the discovery we made.

00:05:11.120 And you call this state of low interest, low enjoyment, but still requires high level skill,

00:05:17.480 high challenge.

00:05:18.820 You call it the strive state.

00:05:21.140 So what's your thumbnail definition of the strive state?

00:05:24.420 Well, striving is when we take on a challenge that requires us to be courageous and to evolve

00:05:30.460 in order to handle that challenge.

00:05:33.700 So an example, if I think of a personal one, like what would I say was a real strive state

00:05:38.840 for me?

00:05:39.460 Oh, years ago, I had to present at the Dalai Lama conference.

00:05:42.780 So it was this conference in Melbourne, in Australia.

00:05:46.640 It was a really big deal.

00:05:48.760 All my heroes were there and I had to present at this conference.

00:05:53.900 And in the front row, I had all my heroes, Carol Dweck, Ed Dina, like all these amazing

00:05:59.820 researchers.

00:06:01.020 And I had to stand up and present in front of them and the Dalai Lama.

00:06:06.680 I thought I was going to vomit beforehand.

00:06:09.340 And like, I was just simply terrified and dreading it, but I went out there, nailed it.

00:06:15.980 And I walked out of that experience going, oh my gosh, like I really had to be courageous.

00:06:22.800 I really had to grow to handle that.

00:06:25.400 And that has had this long lasting effect on me where I just kind of go, I can handle so

00:06:32.240 much more than I thought.

00:06:33.460 Like I amazed myself in that moment.

00:06:35.880 And that's that strive state.

00:06:38.320 And you can experience this in your personal life as well.

00:06:40.620 Maybe it's, you have a temper problem or an anger problem.

00:06:43.820 You're trying to overcome that.

00:06:45.440 You have to struggle with it.

00:06:46.480 Or, you know, you have some sort of tragedy.

00:06:49.280 You know, a family member gets sick, lose a job or something like that.

00:06:52.780 That can also put you in the strive state.

00:06:55.560 Yeah, totally.

00:06:56.120 And so many people during COVID, you know, in that initial lockdown or, you know, I had

00:07:02.860 to change the way I work, just said, I got into that state and I amazed myself in terms

00:07:10.560 of what I could do and what I could handle.

00:07:12.800 And most organizations actually said, we were stunned at our capacity to, you know, transition

00:07:21.120 people into working from home, still be effective, still get stuff done.

00:07:25.160 And, you know, there was so much striving happening there.

00:07:28.280 But also in your personal life, like I think I strive the most in my parenting.

00:07:32.880 Like, you know, both my children can be really challenging and it can drive me nuts.

00:07:38.280 And probably where I've strived the most is to stay calm, to stay compassionate, to stay,

00:07:45.720 you know, have a constructive response when they're really pushing my buttons.

00:07:51.500 So we can find this in any area of our life.

00:07:54.160 Okay, so yeah, right here you have this definition.

00:07:56.720 Striving is where we tackle difficult things, high in challenge and require high level skill

00:08:00.940 and have to display courage to overcome low enjoyment and low interest.

00:08:05.340 And this is, I think, important in the pursuit of a meaningful goal, aspiration or vision.

00:08:10.220 So you're not just, you don't just get in the strive state when you're just doing stuff

00:08:14.080 that's hard for the sake of it being hard.

00:08:15.500 Like there's a bigger purpose behind it.

00:08:17.740 Yeah, and what helps you stay in that strive state is that there is some sort of purpose

00:08:23.440 to this.

00:08:24.020 Like if I think about my kids, you know, one of my biggest drivers is I just don't want

00:08:28.720 to, having worked with high performers, I've worked with so many people who are parents

00:08:33.820 who go, oh, I just regret.

00:08:36.260 Like I have so many regrets about my parenting.

00:08:38.420 So my meaning and purpose around my children is I don't want to be one of those dads.

00:08:43.800 I want to be that dad that's connected, that's fun, that's playful, that they come to for

00:08:48.460 advice.

00:08:50.280 So in those moments, I think about that bigger purpose.

00:08:54.380 Okay, so in the first part of the book, you talk about the downsides of not being in the

00:08:58.340 strive state and instead pursuing a life of low struggle.

00:09:01.820 And you make the case that our culture, I mean, even as individuals, I mean, we're already

00:09:07.040 kind of wired for not struggling, right?

00:09:09.200 We like to take the path of least resistance, but also our culture is designed to encourage

00:09:15.120 that as well.

00:09:15.940 What happens when we don't have to struggle for things?

00:09:19.920 Well, I mean, it starts to become dysfunctional when we don't have striving and struggle.

00:09:26.720 And, you know, probably the most interesting group I interviewed for the book were,

00:09:31.820 were lawyers for really, really wealthy families.

00:09:36.820 And I'm talking multi-billion dollar families and also lawyers that looked after multi-billion

00:09:43.780 dollar trusts that handed out money to people.

00:09:47.580 And they are just the most fascinating group to talk to.

00:09:51.080 And their collective advice was when you give people something for nothing, it's disastrous.

00:09:58.100 And what they talked about is that that third generation rich kid, just, you know, what

00:10:05.320 they talk about, they have so, in terms of their personality, in terms of their lack of

00:10:11.500 compassion for people, they usually have drug problems.

00:10:14.320 They usually have some sort of mental health problem.

00:10:16.820 And just that when we don't have to work for it and it's given to us, it's really, really

00:10:21.820 dysfunctional.

00:10:23.080 They need the challenge.

00:10:26.000 And I mean, an extreme example of this is when I was at that conference, the Dalai Lama

00:10:33.100 conference, a member of the royal family of Kuwait was in the audience.

00:10:36.920 And she contacted me and said, we're trying to make the country of Kuwait happier.

00:10:42.860 We want you to come to Kuwait to work on this.

00:10:45.420 I started to go there and work on this project of how do they start to elevate their level

00:10:50.040 of happiness.

00:10:51.040 And one of the challenges was that they are a very rich country with a very generous government

00:10:56.540 and a very generous royal family.

00:10:58.600 And so many people get rescued and handouts or are given so much that it started to reduce

00:11:06.780 the amount of striving that was going on in the country, and particularly with younger

00:11:11.220 generation.

00:11:12.440 So what we were working on is how do we get this group to re-embrace doing things that are

00:11:18.640 difficult.

00:11:19.240 And when we saw that increase, we saw an increase in happiness and purpose.

00:11:24.060 So when striving is taken away from people, what the research shows is that their mental

00:11:30.980 health just falls apart.

00:11:33.120 And you also talk about, you know, okay, we want to be happy.

00:11:36.660 Like that's a goal for everybody.

00:11:37.900 Everyone wants to be happy, but you make the case that our constant obsession with happiness

00:11:42.060 is counterintuitively not making us happy.

00:11:45.420 It's making us miserable.

00:11:46.260 You have a chapter, I think it's funny.

00:11:47.880 Could everyone please shut up about happiness?

00:11:51.200 What happens when we think about trying to be happy too much?

00:11:54.060 Well, we just get obsessed with it.

00:11:56.840 And one of the biggest fallouts is that we've started to demonize negative emotion.

00:12:02.480 So if you think about the happiness movement, as well meaning as its intention, what it's

00:12:09.560 become is that positive emotional states and positive thoughts are good and good for us.

00:12:14.700 Negative emotional thoughts and negative states are bad and bad for us.

00:12:18.880 And so anytime we feel a negative emotion, we go, there's something wrong with me.

00:12:25.520 We think to ourselves, I'm not happy.

00:12:27.920 What's wrong with me?

00:12:29.100 Well, nothing's wrong with you.

00:12:30.760 You just don't happen to experience happiness right now because you're experiencing other

00:12:35.640 emotions like anxiety.

00:12:37.660 And I mean, we've built anxiety up to be this terrible thing, but anxiety is a very normal emotion.

00:12:44.580 If I'm feeling overwhelmed, I'm going to be anxious.

00:12:47.400 If I'm having, you know, a falling out with my best friend, I'm going to experience anxiety

00:12:54.000 about that.

00:12:54.640 Or if I'm about to do a presentation at school and I'm a school student, I'm going to be anxious.

00:13:00.380 And that's a really normal response.

00:13:03.420 So what's happened is we've just swung so far where we've made everything positive is good

00:13:11.360 and everything negative is bad.

00:13:13.600 And, you know, that limits us so much like to learn, you have to be uncomfortable and

00:13:18.820 experience negative emotion.

00:13:20.100 To have a debate with someone, if they're challenging you, you should feel uncomfortable, but that's

00:13:25.760 normal and that's okay.

00:13:27.600 Or, you know, even if you get negative feedback, say you're a leader at work, you get negative

00:13:32.920 feedback and you feel bad about that.

00:13:35.360 Well, that's a normal response.

00:13:36.980 But because we don't want to feel like that, we tend to go, well, I have to get rid of that

00:13:41.720 emotion.

00:13:42.120 So rather than sitting with that emotion and learning and going, all right, people think

00:13:47.180 my leadership is bad.

00:13:49.100 I feel bad about that, which is normal, but what am I going to do to evolve it?

00:13:53.140 But because we don't want to feel like that, we go, well, I'm going to blame my team or

00:13:58.360 I'm going to blame something else rather than taking it on.

00:14:01.740 Like, I mean, if you think about your podcast, you've talked to so many people, like, have

00:14:06.120 you seen this sort of trend creep into the way we live?

00:14:10.680 Oh yeah.

00:14:11.160 The, like the whole positive psychology movement, we've had a lot of positive psychologists on

00:14:15.840 and I think there's, yeah, like you said, there's good things there.

00:14:18.140 But as you said, I think if you take it overboard, then you start seeing downsides.

00:14:22.020 And we actually had a guest on a couple of years ago to talk about that, Jesse Singal.

00:14:26.260 He talks about the downsides of too much positive psychology.

00:14:29.640 And we also had, you cited him in the book, Todd Cashton.

00:14:32.920 He's a professor here in the United States.

00:14:34.520 Todd's a good mate of mine.

00:14:36.240 Yeah.

00:14:36.260 Yeah.

00:14:36.500 Same, same thing.

00:14:37.320 The obsession with happiness.

00:14:38.880 When you aim for happiness, you actually counterintuitively make yourself less happy.

00:14:43.300 Yeah, completely.

00:14:43.980 And I mean, what we should aim for is fulfillment.

00:14:48.020 What we should aim for is impact, to grow and evolve.

00:14:53.400 And, you know, to live a life like that, you are going to be more uncomfortable, but that's

00:14:57.880 part of the process.

00:14:59.160 And I don't know, I can't quote the researchers, but I know there was a collaboration between

00:15:05.300 Harvard and Yale.

00:15:06.300 And what they showed is that people that feel a wide range of emotions, like on both positive

00:15:13.200 and negative, have better mental health and better well-being.

00:15:16.660 So, yeah, and I see it in my kids is just that desire to constantly want to feel good.

00:15:23.420 Yeah, I see that too.

00:15:25.800 I think I've talked about this before.

00:15:26.980 Like I coach football, flag football, and the kids just get really upset when they feel

00:15:30.340 anxious.

00:15:30.780 And I'm like, man, you don't have to feel, that's okay.

00:15:32.780 You're okay to feel anxious.

00:15:33.760 It just means you're getting ready for this challenge.

00:15:36.320 And it was so, okay, this aversion to negative emotions, what it does, it prevents us from

00:15:41.900 getting to that strive state where we can find meaning and fulfillment and a boost to our

00:15:46.460 self-esteem because the strive state is hard.

00:15:49.340 It's uncomfortable.

00:15:50.860 Yeah, actually, I was just going to say, something popped in my head.

00:15:54.340 I watched this.

00:15:55.780 I'm working with a very, very senior, like the most senior leaders of the multi-billion

00:16:01.840 dollar company.

00:16:02.580 And they're going through a massive transformation.

00:16:06.440 And the CEO said, I don't think we're at a point where we can handle this transformation

00:16:11.600 because we're just not gelled as a team.

00:16:14.500 He said, I want you to come in and work on that.

00:16:16.760 And one of the things I did is I interviewed all their direct reports.

00:16:21.280 And man, the feedback was scathing.

00:16:24.080 It was like, yeah, they don't collaborate.

00:16:26.120 This one doesn't get on with this one.

00:16:28.000 I don't know where the company's going.

00:16:29.600 Like, it was really negative.

00:16:30.980 And I gave it to each of them.

00:16:32.420 And I said, I want you to take 10 minutes to read it and process it and think about it.

00:16:37.820 And I each said to them, how do you feel?

00:16:40.520 And they talked about, you know, all the negative emotions they were feeling.

00:16:43.820 And then I watched them start to debate the feedback.

00:16:47.140 Oh, actually, I know who wrote that.

00:16:49.540 And they've got a thorn in their side about this.

00:16:51.420 So I don't think we have to listen to that.

00:16:53.260 And what they started to do was combat the feedback so that they didn't have to change.

00:17:00.440 And it was this almost like anti-striving piece of, well, how do we argue with all of this

00:17:06.460 so we don't have to put effort into changing rather than going, yeah, this feedback sucks.

00:17:11.320 I'm really uncomfortable, but it shows that we have to grow and evolve.

00:17:15.920 So I think the anti-striving message is stopping us evolving.

00:17:21.900 Okay.

00:17:22.020 So this anti-striving message that's out there caused people to take easy street.

00:17:27.700 We also have this idea of happiness or fulfillment that, okay, as soon as I complete this one

00:17:32.620 goal, if I can get this one ring, if I can tick off this one thing, then I'll feel good.

00:17:38.040 I'll feel happy, I'll feel complete, but your research has found that's actually, that's

00:17:43.060 a myth.

00:17:43.520 What's going on there?

00:17:45.340 Yeah, yeah.

00:17:45.840 I mean, we call it the completion myth.

00:17:47.860 And this is where we massively overestimate how good we're going to feel once we achieve

00:17:53.540 a goal.

00:17:54.400 So it's kind of like, well, once I finish this, I won't be stressed or my life will be perfect.

00:18:00.060 And we interviewed like a huge range of people, you know, from gold medalists that came back

00:18:06.820 from the Olympics, people that sold their businesses for hundreds of millions of dollars.

00:18:11.620 And everyone said, man, once I achieved that, I thought I would be happier.

00:18:18.960 I thought I'd feel better, or I thought it would make more of an impact on my life.

00:18:24.140 Like many of the gold medalists said, oh, I thought that would last longer, but they

00:18:28.600 said, you know, I'm being back a couple of months and people have kind of forgotten

00:18:31.920 about it and they massively overestimated how much the achievement of a goal was going

00:18:39.180 to affect their life.

00:18:40.700 And even people in retirement, you know, we spoke to them as well because so many of

00:18:44.660 them said, oh, once I retire, life's going to be amazing.

00:18:48.360 I'm going to not feel stressed.

00:18:49.780 I'm going to feel brilliant.

00:18:50.880 And so many of them said, oh, wow, I thought I'd have more energy.

00:18:54.240 I know I'm, you know, I'm kind of a bit flat and I don't know what to do next.

00:18:57.800 So yeah, this completion myth was hugely common among people.

00:19:03.840 I don't know.

00:19:04.280 Like, have you ever come across this in your interviews?

00:19:07.200 I haven't come across in my own life.

00:19:09.580 There's always these things where you're like, oh, as soon as this happens, I'll be happy.

00:19:14.320 And then, you know, our brains, we've got the hedonic treadmill, like you get the thing

00:19:17.440 and then you get used to it.

00:19:18.380 And then you're like, man, I'm still not happy.

00:19:20.520 I got to find the next thing.

00:19:22.080 And if I get this thing, this thing for sure will make it.

00:19:24.560 And it doesn't.

00:19:25.800 When I was younger, like, you know, buying cars or once I get an AMG, then, you know,

00:19:32.660 I would have made it.

00:19:33.760 Life's going to be amazing.

00:19:35.160 And you buy the thing and you're like, oh, it's kind of really nothing has changed.

00:19:40.640 Yeah.

00:19:41.180 No, I saw this firsthand when I was really into powerlifting and I was, you call it chasing

00:19:48.160 numbers.

00:19:48.720 I was going for new PRs.

00:19:50.120 Yeah, cool.

00:19:50.740 And I really enjoyed, I really enjoyed, what's interesting, I really enjoyed the process of

00:19:56.200 getting to a next personal best or next personal record PR.

00:19:59.940 But as soon as I, you know, get the PR, I'd feel good for like three seconds.

00:20:04.960 And then I'd be like, all right, well, that's done.

00:20:08.700 Time to go.

00:20:09.580 It just, it wasn't as satisfying as I thought it would be.

00:20:12.680 Yeah.

00:20:13.140 And that's the completion myth.

00:20:14.880 That's what we're talking about.

00:20:16.280 And I mean, powerlifting is a beautiful example because it's so tangible.

00:20:20.740 Like it's, it's like sprinting or swimming, you know, you've got this number you want to

00:20:25.040 hit, but yeah, we found it was incredibly pervasive.

00:20:28.320 Yeah.

00:20:28.680 We think, you know, we tell ourselves, if I get the thing that will make me happy.

00:20:33.660 But in reality, we actually feel the best when we're striving for the thing.

00:20:37.860 Yeah.

00:20:38.160 And for the people listening to this, if you picture like a goal achievement, say you go,

00:20:43.920 okay, I want to hit 400 pounds on my deadlift and you set that goal, you start to walk towards

00:20:50.500 the goal and then you achieve the goal.

00:20:53.060 And when we interviewed people, we said, if you think about this goal setting process,

00:20:56.700 what's the most fulfilling part?

00:20:58.400 And they kind of looked at us weird and went, well, of course the fulfillment, like that's

00:21:02.820 the only reason I do the goal is to get the outcome.

00:21:06.840 But so that's retrospectively.

00:21:09.700 But when we actually got them to diarize, so we said, all right, set a new goal, go through

00:21:16.200 the strive and the achievement.

00:21:17.560 And we got them to diarize how they felt, what emotions they experienced, what were the

00:21:22.760 narratives inside their head.

00:21:25.000 And when they actually did it in the moment, what we found is that the strive was the most

00:21:30.080 fulfilling part.

00:21:31.020 You know, that I don't really feel like training today, but I motivated myself to do it and

00:21:37.820 I had a really great session.

00:21:40.120 You know, that made them feel really proud.

00:21:43.200 And the moments during the strive that were the most fulfilling were the parts that had

00:21:49.280 the most amount of struggle.

00:21:50.520 So it sounds so counterintuitive, but throughout that whole process, it was the most difficult

00:21:57.080 parts that made them feel pride, self-esteem, required them to evolve.

00:22:05.220 You know, if you think about the powerlifting example, okay, I'm managing an injury, I'm

00:22:10.020 training around it.

00:22:11.760 You know, they're the parts that people go like, that's what I'm proud of.

00:22:15.820 I didn't give up.

00:22:16.800 I pushed through.

00:22:17.560 So yeah, we think that the outcome is the most fulfilling part, when in fact, it's the

00:22:22.300 struggle along the journey that made them most fulfilled.

00:22:26.200 Yeah.

00:22:26.460 Ernest Hemingway understood this in one of the sections of Green Hills of Africa.

00:22:32.040 He titled it Pursuit as Happiness, kind of a playoff pursuit of happiness.

00:22:36.900 Yeah.

00:22:37.400 Yeah.

00:22:37.740 I think that summarizes it perfectly.

00:22:39.980 Okay.

00:22:40.380 So finding meaning in completing goals, probably not going to happen or, you know, finding meaning

00:22:47.140 and making things easy for yourself.

00:22:49.640 In fact, that just might make you miserable.

00:22:51.920 And you actually say, what is it?

00:22:53.300 I think you said like, when everything's easy, it turns everyone into an a-hole town is what

00:22:57.300 you call it.

00:22:57.840 Yeah.

00:22:59.480 And it just messes up kids.

00:23:00.820 You talk about Pass the Parcel.

00:23:03.960 Oh my gosh.

00:23:05.140 I forgot that that was in the book.

00:23:06.700 Yeah.

00:23:07.120 Pass the Parcel.

00:23:08.200 Do you guys have that in the US?

00:23:09.760 They don't do in the US.

00:23:10.720 The way I discovered about Pass the Parcel was Bluey. 0.77

00:23:14.180 Oh my gosh.

00:23:15.540 I love Bluey.

00:23:16.520 That is the best show ever.

00:23:18.380 And it was the same sort of thing.

00:23:19.500 You had this situation where like Bluey, you know, you were in charge of Pass the Parcel 0.99

00:23:22.920 for your kids and you didn't know.

00:23:25.780 Like, I guess when you're growing up, well, first off, explain Pass the Parcel for our

00:23:29.440 American audience.

00:23:30.280 Pass the Parcel is a toy gets wrapped up in newspaper.

00:23:33.980 So, you know, you might wrap it up in 20 different pieces of newspaper.

00:23:39.520 And what happens is all the kids sit in a circle and it's handed around the circle.

00:23:44.400 When the music stops, a kid peels off one of the layers and then they hand it to the

00:23:50.560 next kid.

00:23:51.260 And when the music stops again.

00:23:52.660 So the excitement is who's going to actually get the toy.

00:23:57.020 And, you know, no one knows because you don't know how many layers.

00:24:00.640 That's the whole piece.

00:24:01.680 So my wife said to me, you know, I think it was my daughter's fourth or fifth birthday.

00:24:08.980 She said, do Pass the Parcel.

00:24:11.160 And I'm like, awesome.

00:24:12.420 So I get this really cool toy.

00:24:14.100 I wrap it in newspaper and I hand it to my wife.

00:24:17.560 And she kind of goes, why is this thing so light?

00:24:20.440 And I said, oh, well, you know, the toy is not very heavy.

00:24:22.720 She said, what do you mean the toy?

00:24:25.080 Like there should be multiple toys in there.

00:24:27.440 And I'm like, what do you mean?

00:24:28.440 And she goes, well, every kid needs to get a toy.

00:24:32.980 And I'm like, what do you mean every kid?

00:24:35.200 She said, well, every time you put a new wrapper on it, it's got to have a toy in it.

00:24:39.020 So every time a kid, it stops, a kid gets a toy.

00:24:42.320 And I'm like, that defeats the whole purpose of Pass the Parcel.

00:24:45.140 But anyway, like, so we had to do it.

00:24:49.640 And she said to me, make sure every kid wins. 0.96

00:24:53.940 And I'm like, you are kidding me.

00:24:56.780 So I'm doing the thing and I'm making sure I'm stopping the music when it gets to each child.

00:25:02.000 But the kids turn on me halfway through Pass the Parcel of like, one kid's yelling because

00:25:07.720 he hasn't won yet.

00:25:08.780 And I'm like, give it a rest, kid.

00:25:10.920 Like, I'm trying to get to you.

00:25:12.600 And, you know, my daughter ended up telling me I was crap at Pass the Parcel.

00:25:17.340 And it was just this terrible thing of why does everyone have to win?

00:25:22.680 Like, why do we all have to get a result?

00:25:26.640 And it really hit me in that moment of you couldn't just go, yeah, sorry, kid, you missed

00:25:32.180 out.

00:25:32.500 Like, this kid won.

00:25:34.540 You had a chance, but it didn't work out that way.

00:25:37.220 We're going to be okay.

00:25:38.160 But, you know, whether it's like, I've had kids come home with a ribbon for 10th and I'm

00:25:45.100 like, I didn't even think they made ribbons for 10th.

00:25:48.300 And when they get the 10th ribbon, they just kind of, they go home and just chuck it down

00:25:52.940 and go, I don't even know why I got this because I didn't even get close to winning.

00:25:56.480 So, yeah.

00:25:57.280 I mean, that's that easy street of everyone has to win.

00:26:01.360 We don't want to upset anyone.

00:26:02.560 And it turns everyone into a dysfunctional a-hole town.

00:26:06.540 We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

00:26:13.660 And now back to the show.

00:26:15.440 Okay.

00:26:15.900 So, we've talked about the ideas that keep us from the strive state. 0.59

00:26:18.800 Like, we focus on the result instead of the process.

00:26:21.860 We think that if life is easy, we get what we want.

00:26:25.620 We get rid of discomfort.

00:26:26.760 We think that's going to bring us happiness, but it's actually in the striving, embracing risk, effort, discomfort.

00:26:35.200 That's where we actually find joy.

00:26:37.320 So, let's talk more about this strive state and how to get the benefits of it and get into it.

00:26:42.780 Earlier, you said that there's two elements to a strive state.

00:26:46.300 It's courage and evolution.

00:26:48.380 Walk us through those factors.

00:26:49.640 Look, if you were to ask the average person what they want from life.

00:26:52.700 So, if you were to walk out onto the street and ask 100 people what do they want from life, in Western societies, the most common answer you'll get is to be happy.

00:27:03.000 So, people go, I don't know.

00:27:04.420 I just want to be happy.

00:27:05.980 Now, if you then find the first 100 parents and ask them what they want from life for their kids, the exact same answer, which is, I don't care.

00:27:14.900 I just want them to be happy.

00:27:16.120 So, people looking forward in their life for themselves or for the thing they love the most, the focus is happiness.

00:27:23.960 So, I read this research and then my brain goes, well, what about people at the end of their life looking back?

00:27:30.140 Do they go, oh, I wish I'd been happier?

00:27:32.920 And if you think about like the top three regrets are the dying.

00:27:36.660 So, people on their deathbed, the top three regrets are number one, I wish I'd had the courage to live the life I wanted to live, not what other people expected me to do.

00:27:47.020 That's number one.

00:27:48.060 Number two is I wish I had the courage to tell people I loved how much they meant to me more often.

00:27:54.100 And number three is I wish I'd had the courage to not let fear hold me back from doing things that challenged me.

00:28:01.960 So, if you look at the deathbed research, the top three are about one thing and one thing only, and that is courage.

00:28:10.380 So, people looking forward in their life go, I want happiness.

00:28:13.920 People at the end of their life looking back go, forget happiness.

00:28:18.100 I wish I'd been more courageous.

00:28:20.500 And the thing about when you are courageous, it builds so much self-esteem, so much pride.

00:28:27.060 So, when we're courageous, we have faith in ourselves, we believe in ourselves more.

00:28:33.940 And the other one, evolution, is just where we see ourselves get better at something.

00:28:39.880 So, once again, that builds our self-esteem, our pride.

00:28:43.740 I mean, if you look at POS Psych, and POS Psych, when it started out, had a brilliant impact.

00:28:50.160 And if you think about the principle that underpins it, it's like humans are most engaged and resilient when they see themselves making progress towards a meaningful goal.

00:29:02.220 So, when we see ourselves evolving, getting better, making progress, that's when we really knuckle down and keep pushing through.

00:29:10.620 So, what we've discovered in our research is that to witness ourselves be courageous and to see ourselves evolve are two critical things for our well-being and for our mental health.

00:29:22.840 And you need to strive to do those things.

00:29:26.740 And that's why this easy street and this easy life where there's no courage or evolution is so devastating for us.

00:29:34.360 And in order for you to express courage and to evolve, there's got to be a struggle.

00:29:40.720 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:29:41.240 And you talk about there's four different types of struggle.

00:29:43.540 What are those different types of struggle?

00:29:45.360 Yeah, well, first of all, there's traumatic struggle.

00:29:48.920 And obviously, this is something we want to avoid.

00:29:52.520 This is, you know, abuse in our life, going through war, natural disasters.

00:29:58.860 This is when truly traumatic, awful things happen to us.

00:30:04.960 So, that's traumatic struggle.

00:30:06.900 The next one is sorrowful struggle.

00:30:08.860 And that's where we experience things that make us sad, put us in a negative state.

00:30:14.500 Like a relationship breaks down.

00:30:16.960 You know, you break up with someone, sorrowful struggle.

00:30:20.260 You experience bullying at work or you fall into financial distress.

00:30:24.480 So, it's not trauma, which is a word we throw around far too easily, but it's experiences that have an impact on us and put us in, you know, a really sorrowful, sad state.

00:30:37.420 Then we have struggle in the dredge.

00:30:39.740 And this is just the stuff in life that frustrates us.

00:30:42.640 It's traffic.

00:30:43.720 It's, you know, your kid won't get dressed.

00:30:46.420 It's frustrations at systems and process at work or, you know, it's just kind of stuff in life.

00:30:53.780 That drags you down a little bit.

00:30:56.440 And then the final type of struggle is called growth-centric struggle.

00:31:00.740 And this is what we've been talking about.

00:31:04.060 It's struggle that gives me the opportunity to grow and evolve.

00:31:08.340 So, for those leaders that got that negative feedback and then were trying to talk themselves out of having to do it, they were presented growth-centric struggle.

00:31:18.720 So, your direct reports don't think you're doing a good job.

00:31:22.200 So, you've got a choice and an opportunity to step up and evolve because of that struggle that's been presented to you.

00:31:31.340 You know, you think about powerlifting is growth-centric struggle.

00:31:34.860 Like, I'm going to challenge myself physically to evolve, get stronger.

00:31:39.580 Whether it's parenting, whether it's, you know, if you're an entrepreneur in a business,

00:31:44.740 how do I grow to get better at selling or marketing or – so, it's just where life gives us a struggle.

00:31:53.760 But if we lean into it, we're going to grow and evolve.

00:31:57.500 Now, you could argue that some of those other things like sorrowful struggle and traumatic struggle is an opportunity to evolve.

00:32:05.240 But it's much more difficult and challenging in those scenarios.

00:32:12.100 So, growth-centric struggle is what we want and what we want to actively engage in in our lives.

00:32:17.980 Yeah.

00:32:18.100 In the growth-centric struggle, you're using your agency to select that.

00:32:21.580 Like, you are shaping your life.

00:32:23.180 The other stuff just kind of happens to you.

00:32:24.440 You have to deal with it.

00:32:25.820 Yeah, I mean, look, there's obviously some grey areas in this.

00:32:29.520 But that growth-centric struggle is more a situation is presented or I choose.

00:32:36.220 Like, you think about your powerlifting.

00:32:37.820 No one's making you do that.

00:32:40.060 You know, you're choosing to do it.

00:32:41.820 You know, say a growth-centric struggle is if my child is being really difficult and, you know, not coping with life,

00:32:51.240 that's an opportunity for me to step in, improve my parenting to help mold them.

00:32:58.440 Or like those leaders who were given negative feedback, they've got a choice.

00:33:02.720 They can either dismiss it and keep doing what they're doing or they could go, no, this is important.

00:33:08.760 This has meaning attached to it and I'm going to fully throw myself into this evolution

00:33:13.260 and I'm going to be courageous as a leader and I'm going to get better.

00:33:16.740 Well, what separates individuals who see struggle as a threat compared to those who see it as opportunity to express courage and to grow and evolve?

00:33:28.280 We don't really have a very clear answer on this one.

00:33:31.560 But, I mean, the point you've made is a brilliant one because when people are presented with growth-centric struggle,

00:33:38.880 they either look at it as this is an opportunity for me to evolve and develop or this is a threat.

00:33:46.740 And if you think about those leaders I've described a couple of times, they've gone, okay, we've been heavily criticised by this group.

00:33:56.280 They start to fall into that threat state, which is, oh, wow, what if the board hears about this?

00:34:04.140 What if more people criticise us?

00:34:06.300 Okay, how do we shut these people down?

00:34:08.160 How do we find excuses to justify our behaviour?

00:34:10.880 If they see it as an opportunity to develop, they start to move into, well, how do I evolve?

00:34:16.040 How do I improve?

00:34:17.240 What do we need to do?

00:34:18.900 So there's many factors.

00:34:20.920 If an individual is standing there going, I just, I can't become that type of leader.

00:34:27.000 I don't have the skills to do this.

00:34:29.020 If they truly look at that situation and go, I can't pull this off,

00:34:34.000 they'll go into that threat state of, well, how do I get out of this?

00:34:37.720 Or how do I blame that group?

00:34:39.780 As well as like, if you're not used to discomfort, when that discomfort comes up,

00:34:45.180 your brain goes, how do we get away from this as fast as humanly possible?

00:34:50.660 And they move into that threat state of, and I've seen this with staff, you start to challenge them.

00:34:56.020 And if they're not used to being challenged or they're not comfortable with growth-centric struggle,

00:35:01.460 they'll resign, they'll leave, they'll just run away from it.

00:35:04.940 So it really comes down to just their experience and their mentality of striving and struggle and challenge.

00:35:13.400 And if you train people to handle this more effectively,

00:35:19.020 when they come up against something difficult,

00:35:21.500 they will have that development path rather than that threat path.

00:35:26.020 Yeah, it just comes with practice.

00:35:28.040 You have to experience it.

00:35:29.060 And then you develop the skill, the muscle in order to see challenges or struggles as an opportunity to develop and not a threat.

00:35:37.440 Yeah, and I see this heaps in teams is when they're being asked to evolve or use a new process or new technology,

00:35:46.140 or, hey, we're going to deal with our customers differently.

00:35:49.640 If they are truly scared by that or think we can't pull that off, they will attack the initiative and kill it.

00:36:00.260 And, you know, I see this so much in cultures.

00:36:04.200 Can we evolve and change?

00:36:06.100 And if they think they can't or if they have that mentality of this is a bad thing you're asking us to do,

00:36:12.240 they will go into that threat state and they will find a way to kill the initiative off.

00:36:18.660 Yeah, it's so common.

00:36:21.460 So in your research, you also found different behaviors that good strivers take part in.

00:36:26.620 What are some of these behaviors that you found that they regularly take part in?

00:36:30.060 Yeah, so one of the things we did is we studied groups who had massive levels of struggle in front of them.

00:36:37.960 So either there was a massive disruption in that profession or that organization, and we looked at how people responded.

00:36:45.920 And what we found is that people like the really good strivers have acceptance that struggle sucks.

00:36:53.500 Like this is not going to be fun.

00:36:55.700 And, okay, we've gone through this disruption or we're going to have to embrace this new technology.

00:37:01.560 Yeah, this is going to suck.

00:37:02.680 Like this is going to be really uncomfortable.

00:37:04.260 And there's going to be many points on the journey where we doubt our ability.

00:37:09.180 And they just had this view of, yeah, this is going to be part of it.

00:37:13.360 Like if we're going to evolve, we're going to have to be uncomfortable.

00:37:16.860 And one group we studied in huge detail was financial advisors.

00:37:21.160 So these people are working with clients to give them financial advice and products and, you know, help them with their wealth.

00:37:29.980 Now, in Australia, that has gone through massive regulatory change.

00:37:34.660 So the way they've had to work is constantly changing for the last 15 years.

00:37:38.860 Even the way they get paid has changed.

00:37:41.200 And what we looked at is the groups who were innovating and evolving versus the groups that were kind of being left behind and just working like they did 20 years ago.

00:37:53.460 So one group was evolving, one group wasn't.

00:37:56.220 And what we initially thought is that the proactive group would see all this change as a good thing, you know, like it's helping us be more professional.

00:38:04.480 What we found across the board, everyone thought it all sucked.

00:38:07.880 Like even the most proactive people went, these are terrible decisions, it's making my life hard.

00:38:13.600 But what they focused on was, yeah, but if I push through this, here is the goal I have for my business or here is the outcome I want.

00:38:22.500 Whereas the group that weren't being proactive, they were waiting for someone to come to their rescue, you know, that they saw it as a threat.

00:38:30.940 So they were trying to run away from it rather than embracing the new way of working.

00:38:34.960 So that acceptance of, yeah, this is going to be difficult and I'm not going to enjoy it, but I'm going to embrace it anyway.

00:38:42.500 Look, one of the other behaviors of really good strivers were they were very connected to meaning and purpose.

00:38:50.540 So, you know, the meaning and purpose behind the goal, why my business exists, why I'm doing this as a parent, why am I trying to evolve in this area?

00:38:59.640 Constantly tapping into, but there is a bigger thing at foot here.

00:39:04.280 And also, one of the other things we found is that they focused on that courage and reflected on, man, today I really embrace this or I really challenged myself and overcame that.

00:39:18.840 What they were constantly looking at is the progress that they were making along that path.

00:39:24.180 You know, looking at the courage, looking at the evolution that we talked about.

00:39:27.980 So they were very reflective on how they were evolving as individuals.

00:39:31.540 So they were the three.

00:39:33.180 Well, actually, there's three kind of slash four there.

00:39:36.960 Yeah.

00:39:37.320 And besides those things, you also found that they did things in order to strive for the long term.

00:39:43.760 Because when you're working on hard things, it's easy to fall into that burnout zone.

00:39:48.600 But the really good strivers, they picked up on tactics to avoid that.

00:39:52.780 What are some of the things that they did?

00:39:53.840 Yeah, this is a really, I'm glad you brought that up because, you know, those things I just described there are the proactive things in the moment of struggle.

00:40:05.560 What we found is that people who were great at striving and striving for a long period just had these sort of background behaviors that they did that allowed them to continue to strive and not burn out or not kind of give up on that goal.

00:40:21.160 Yeah, look, I mean, there was varying things from, you know, in terms of mental focus.

00:40:26.740 One of the things we're finding today is we're so distracted and interrupted by technology.

00:40:33.160 We're multitasking constantly.

00:40:36.160 So I think we showed around the average worker is interrupted around 70 times a day.

00:40:43.400 Now, you know, obviously, what that does is we lose our ability to focus and be productive and to strive.

00:40:52.040 So what we found is really good strivers were just great at improving their focus and not getting distracted, you know, removing technology, you know, actually training their focus, like with some sort of meditative practice, even having hobbies that honed their attention.

00:41:08.560 So what we found is that these strivers were really good at just being able to have a calm mind and be focused.

00:41:16.320 We also saw that they practice gratitude.

00:41:19.680 There's so much research out there showing the benefits of gratitude, you know, from a mental health perspective, as well as a well-being piece, as well as, you know, being able to cope with trauma.

00:41:31.060 And studies have been done on 9-11 survivors and people who had been through the Vietnam War and how going through something challenging like that, the regular practice of gratefulness really helped them manage those traumatizing situations.

00:41:48.800 Obviously, you know, having really good support network around you that when you're going through difficulty and when you're finding things hard, you turn to these people.

00:41:57.240 Another one was also recovery, you know, just the ability to take time out to recover.

00:42:03.340 So many people run just flat out today where they don't take time for recovery and they just push themselves constantly.

00:42:11.160 So that ability to step away, because we don't want to be in strive all the time.

00:42:15.680 Like we want to challenge ourselves, strive, evolve, but then recover, you know, allow ourselves to relax, to sort of put stuff back in.

00:42:25.620 So recovery was a really important one.

00:42:29.200 And also to take time to celebrate victory when they achieve things, when they make progress moving forward.

00:42:35.400 So these were some of the things they just incorporated into their lives to help them deal with struggle and challenge more effectively.

00:42:44.040 And I imagine you might have found people, maybe, did you guys do this connection, your research on microtransitions?

00:42:49.900 I imagine good strivers know how to master microtransitions to improve their life.

00:42:56.560 Yeah, look, one thing we found that third space of research that we did is that, you know, good strivers, high performers were able to transition more effectively.

00:43:06.500 So when they moved into something that was challenging, their ability to really, you know, bring the right attitude, the right mental focus was part of that skill set that they had.

00:43:18.860 So, yeah, that was definitely part of it as well.

00:43:22.060 Okay, so striving is how we find meaning.

00:43:24.480 That's how we find self-esteem, self-admiration.

00:43:26.820 It's doing hard things where we have to show courage and we change and get better.

00:43:32.660 And the happiness is in the pursuit of the thing, not necessarily in the thing itself.

00:43:37.580 We kind of mentioned kids, but as a parent, I really want to help my kids be, you know, I want them to strive better.

00:43:44.340 So what have you found in your own life to help kids learn how to strive better?

00:43:50.640 Well, the whole thing about this is just give them situations and put them in situations where they are going to struggle.

00:43:58.800 Just don't rescue them all the time.

00:44:01.240 Now, obviously, if they're in a dangerous situation or they're being bullied or something like that, you want to step in.

00:44:07.120 But with just challenging things in life, we want to let them deal with it.

00:44:13.420 We want to give them that responsibility.

00:44:16.100 We want to avoid rescuing them all the time.

00:44:18.620 Like my oldest daughter is a gymnast and she got a new coach and the new coach was really hard on the kids.

00:44:27.500 And whenever someone mucked up, they had to do burpees and push-ups.

00:44:31.560 So I pick her up from training and she gets in the car, slams the door, and I'm like, what's going on with you?

00:44:38.300 She goes, oh, my new coach is the worst.

00:44:41.460 Whenever someone's disrespectful or mucks up, we have to do burpees and push-ups.

00:44:46.060 So if one person behaves badly, we all have to do it.

00:44:49.940 And I'm like, yeah, I used to have a coach like that too.

00:44:52.960 And she's like, it's not fair.

00:44:54.840 And the whole way she's coming home, she's complaining about this situation.

00:44:59.060 So she gets home, talks to my wife, complains to my wife. 1.00

00:45:02.260 And my wife said, oh, should we like send an email or maybe we should have a conversation with the coach?

00:45:08.020 And I'm like, no, in no way are we going to get involved in this.

00:45:11.780 And I said, like, what's the worst that's going to happen?

00:45:14.200 She's going to get really good at burpees and push-ups. 1.00

00:45:16.520 Like there's no downside to this.

00:45:18.620 And we actually reached out to a few of the other parents and said, you know, I don't think we should get involved in this.

00:45:25.380 I think we should let the kids sort this situation out.

00:45:27.700 And the other parents agreed.

00:45:29.980 And what happened is that there was one kid that was really misbehaving a lot.

00:45:34.400 And after three weeks of doing push-ups and burpees, the rest of the group pulled that kid aside and said, hey, you've got to cut that out because we're tired of doing this.

00:45:42.420 And what happened is that group sorted out that girl who was misbehaving.

00:45:47.880 Now, they weren't awful about it.

00:45:49.600 They just said, hey, we're not going to tolerate this anymore.

00:45:51.820 And they solve the problem.

00:45:54.940 But also, it's like sometimes in life you get a coach that's mean.

00:45:58.920 Sometimes in life you have a leader that's not that nice.

00:46:02.260 Like I'm not going to rescue you from this.

00:46:05.600 And I think we've got to give our kids those opportunities to solve their problems or to sit with discomfort more rather than constantly solving everything for them.

00:46:17.000 So, yeah, just let them sit with the discomfort.

00:46:18.500 I love that.

00:46:19.340 Well, Adam, this has been a great conversation.

00:46:20.900 Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:46:24.260 Just dradamfraser.com is my website.

00:46:28.560 And you can go there and find out about all our research, our work.

00:46:32.660 And obviously, we're on all the socials, LinkedIn, Instagram.

00:46:37.680 So, yeah, you can reach out through those channels.

00:46:42.220 Well, Adam Fraser, thanks for your time.

00:46:43.260 It's been a pleasure.

00:46:44.380 My pleasure.

00:46:46.380 My guest here is Dr. Adam Fraser.

00:46:47.860 He's the author of the book Strive.

00:46:49.000 You can learn more information about his work at his website, dradamfraser.com.

00:46:52.640 Also, check out our show notes at awim.is slash strive.

00:46:55.260 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast.

00:47:05.140 If you'd like to be part of an organization that will put meaningful striving into your life, consider joining The Strenuous Life, an online-offline program that challenges men to be their best in body, mind, and spirit.

00:47:14.480 A new enrollment of The Strenuous Life will be opening up next month.

00:47:17.620 Go to strenuouslife.co and sign up for our email list to receive an announcement letting you know when enrollment has begun.

00:47:23.100 As always, thank you for the continued support.

00:47:25.000 And until next time, this is Brett McKay.

00:47:26.640 Remind you to not listen to the AOM podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

00:47:29.840 Thank you.

00:47:36.020 Don't wait.

00:47:47.840 I'm set up one page.

00:47:49.580 I'm set up one page.

00:47:50.120 I'm set up one page.

00:47:51.180 I'm set up one page.

The Art of Manliness - May 15, 2024

Embracing the Strive State

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