The Art of Manliness - EPISODE #1,000! Rules for the Modern Man

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to the 1000th episode of the Art of Manliness podcast. Yes,

00:00:06.280 1000 episodes. That's a really cool milestone. If you listen to the podcast, you know,

00:00:10.820 I primarily interview authors of books. And in preparation for the interview, I read the entire

00:00:16.700 book to get ready for my conversation with that author. So 1000 episodes represents my reading

00:00:23.000 nearly 1000 books, which is pretty cool to think about. It's been a long and great journey. If you

00:00:28.300 would have told me 16 years ago, when I was in law school, that I would have been hosting a podcast

00:00:33.380 for my career in 2024, I would have said, you're crazy. I'm gonna be an oil and gas attorney in Tulsa.

00:00:39.200 What are you talking about? So I thought it'd be fun before we get today's interview to do a brief

00:00:43.920 retrospective of the Art of Manliness podcast. I started the Art of Manliness blog in 2008.

00:00:49.640 When I was in law school at University of Tulsa, I started because I wanted to create the men's

00:00:54.420 magazine that I'd want to read didn't like the men's magazines out there. So I said, Hey, you know

00:00:58.180 what, I'm going to make the men's magazine that I would want to read. So we put out started putting

00:01:01.420 out text articles, a lot of men resonated with what we were doing, they enjoyed what we were putting

00:01:04.900 out there. Then in 2009, I decided to start a podcast, I was listening to podcasts, I enjoyed

00:01:10.460 the format, I thought it'd be a great way to interview authors of books that I enjoyed. So I

00:01:15.420 started the podcast at the time podcasting was a relatively new format. I don't think people knew what

00:01:20.120 podcasts were supposed to be. I had no clue what I was doing. There wasn't the technology or the

00:01:26.740 infrastructure that exists today in the podcasting world. So I was figuring things out on my own. I

00:01:32.320 had to cobble together this podcasting setup. So I bought this crappy USB microphone because that's

00:01:38.640 all I could afford. And the technology didn't exist at the time to do remote interviews in a way so that

00:01:45.300 your guest audio sounded good. So I had to use Skype on my laptop and call the guest on their landline

00:01:54.880 or their cell phone. So the sound quality, the audio quality is really bad. It sounded like AM

00:01:59.060 radio. Here's a sample of the very first episode we published. This was published September 2009. I

00:02:06.600 talked to Marcus Brotherton, who's been a guest on the podcast several times. He's also written

00:02:11.080 quite a few articles on Art of Manliness. I was talking to him about his book, We Who Are Alive

00:02:16.540 and Still Remain. It's about the band of brothers. So here you go. Take a listen.

00:02:36.480 Robert McKay here and welcome to the inaugural episode of the Art of Manliness podcast. And

00:02:40.880 I got to say, I'm really excited about this. I have been wanting to do a podcast for quite some time.

00:02:45.660 And we've been getting emails from you all requesting that we start a podcast for the

00:02:50.380 Art of Manliness. And so here we are. We're doing it. And to give you an idea of what we have in mind

00:02:55.520 with the podcast, we're going to do an episode once a week. They're going to be between 20 and 30

00:03:01.540 minutes long. And it's not going to be me just pontificating and blabbering on about what I think

00:03:06.920 is manly or whatever. I wouldn't do that to you all. What we plan on doing is bringing in experts,

00:03:13.520 authors, personalities, and Art of Manliness readers, you all who read the blog and talk to

00:03:18.920 them and discuss with them issues and topics of interest to men. Ask them what manliness means

00:03:25.360 to them and hopefully get some advice and get some tips on how to be better husbands, better fathers,

00:03:31.120 and all around better men. So that's the goal of the show. And I'm looking forward to it. So sit back,

00:03:37.840 relax, and enjoy the first episode of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:03:45.000 Okay, few observations there. First, why did I sound like I was 12 years old? I was 25 at the

00:03:51.360 time. So I should have been done with puberty. But I guess I wasn't. That's interesting. Number two,

00:03:56.040 I really do appreciate the earnestness of young 25 year old Brett. I could tell I was excited about

00:04:02.500 this new thing. So I really do appreciate that. And then three, we'll talk about the intro music.

00:04:07.280 If you've been listening to the podcast for a while now, you are familiar with our original intro

00:04:11.260 music. People either love it or hate it. That song is a 1920 something recording of a song called

00:04:19.720 Flaming Youth by Duke Ellington. So if you want to listen to that, you can check that out. We

00:04:24.460 changed it a couple years ago. I like the intro music we have today. It's got this 1970s police cop

00:04:29.560 show vibe that I like. So I started the podcast in 2009, put out weekly episodes, and then I stopped

00:04:35.100 doing the podcast in 2012. Because people just weren't listening to it. I don't think people

00:04:41.040 really understood what podcasts were at the time. There weren't a lot of apps out there for podcast

00:04:45.340 discovery or podcast consumption. You basically just had Apple podcast, and that was it. So I wasn't

00:04:50.620 getting any downloads. I wasn't getting any feedback from the podcast. I was like, well,

00:04:55.380 this is a waste of time. I'll just go focus my time on writing articles. And then we also started

00:05:00.160 doing YouTube at the time around 2012. So I stopped it. And then in end of 2012, I started

00:05:07.120 getting letters and emails from people saying, hey, you had this podcast, but you stopped putting

00:05:11.500 out new episodes. What happened? Can you bring that back? And I think what was going on was you

00:05:16.200 started seeing the development of technology to make podcast consumption and discovery more easy.

00:05:22.720 And I think podcasting was starting to pick up in the mainstream. So I restarted the podcast again

00:05:27.660 in 2013. And since then, I've upgraded my podcast setup. I've gone from a crappy USB microphone to a

00:05:34.680 nice studio mic. We also have technology that allows us to do remote interviews so that the guest audio

00:05:40.460 is good. We send our guests a microphone if they don't have one because we want the listening

00:05:44.720 experience to be as good as possible for our listeners. But despite all that, I still record the

00:05:49.060 podcast in my bedroom closet. And the reason I do, it's the quietest place in the house. I've got my

00:05:54.740 suits hanging up next to me, kind of muffles the sound, creates a really great sound studio.

00:05:59.440 So if you're trying to imagine your head, like what does it look like when Brett's, I'm in my

00:06:02.740 just imagine a bedroom closet with clothes hanging next to you. That's what it is. And what's been

00:06:08.560 interesting to see in the past 16 years as the podcast world has developed is that podcasts have

00:06:14.160 gotten more complicated and complex. A lot of podcasts out there have whole teams of people working

00:06:19.320 on it with a dozen editors, writers, producers, engineers, video people, social media teams.

00:06:27.060 The AOM podcast essentially remains a mom and pop operation. I work on the site and the podcast with

00:06:33.420 Katie McKay, who's my wife. She's been working on AOM since the very beginning in 2008. We started

00:06:39.020 working on articles together. She's written articles for the site and she took on the role of podcast

00:06:44.940 producer and editor. And Katie, her role is primarily behind the scenes, but AOM would not be what it is

00:06:53.020 today without her. She does so much work digging up great guests for the show. And then she edits the

00:06:59.480 show better than anyone in the business. So here's the workflow of the AOM podcast and Katie's role in

00:07:05.200 that. So I'll read the book in preparation of the interview, outline some questions for myself and

00:07:10.020 the guest. And then I do the interview. And then after I'd done the interview, I send it off to Katie

00:07:15.000 who starts listening to it over and over and over again. It could be three, four, five times she

00:07:21.240 listens to this episode. And what she's doing is she's taking out all the parts in the show that

00:07:26.060 don't go anywhere. Sometimes I ask a dumb question that just leads to a dead end, removes any of the

00:07:31.760 awkwardness that can seep into a podcast interview, reworks parts that aren't clear, distills things down

00:07:39.000 just to the very best bits so that the final episode that you all listen to is the clearest, cleanest and

00:07:45.240 most coherent it can be. Our goal with the podcast is for it to be no longer than an hour. This episode is going

00:07:52.420 to be longer than an hour. It's the 1000th episode. I hope you can indulge us. But our goal of the podcast is we feel

00:07:57.140 like an hour to 45 minutes. That's long enough where you can listen to a single episode on the commute to work and

00:08:04.480 then on the way home for work. I know a lot of podcasts out there, they like to do the two,

00:08:09.060 three hour long episodes. And there's an audience for that. A lot of people like that. I personally

00:08:13.060 don't. I can't listen to podcasts that's that long. So our goal is to keep it concise. We want

00:08:18.040 this to be something that you can don't have to slog through. So she does just does a fantastic job

00:08:23.380 with editing the podcast. And besides editing the podcast, she also writes articles for the site.

00:08:27.440 She's probably written some of your favorite articles on AOM that we've put out there in the past 16

00:08:32.480 years. So Katie, thank you for all that you've done for the AOM podcast. It wouldn't be the same

00:08:36.860 without you. You're an amazing producer and editor. You're a fantastic writer. It's been so much fun

00:08:41.960 working on this crazy project with you for the past 16 years. And the same time raising a family with

00:08:47.180 you. You're a great wife, an amazing mother. I love you so much. Thank you for a lot you've done.

00:08:52.660 After Katie does her editing, we handed the episode over to Dylan Moraga at Creative Audio Lab here in

00:08:58.420 Tulsa, Oklahoma, who puts the final touches on the episode. He cleans it up even

00:09:02.300 more, making it sound as good as it possibly can. And I'm so impressed and appreciative

00:09:07.980 of Dylan's reliability and consistency and turning out each episode week after week,

00:09:13.920 year after year. So thank you, Dylan, and also John Mitchell at Creative Audio Lab.

00:09:18.520 And that's it. That's who works on getting episodes of the AOM podcast out to our listeners around the

00:09:23.280 world for the last decade. It honestly, it takes a lot of work. It's a lot of long hours with very

00:09:29.760 minimal breaks. Katie and I have not really taken a non-working vacation since the AOM blog started in

00:09:36.560 2008. We're working on the podcast and the blog even when we're not home. I've done podcast interviews

00:09:43.100 sitting on a toilet in an Airbnb bathroom because we need to get an episode out. But we really do.

00:09:49.780 We love what we're doing. And we hope that what we're doing is worthwhile. And we hope that in a world

00:09:55.500 where online content can feel like it's making you dumber and lower, we really do hope that our

00:10:03.420 content uplifts and edifies and improves every aspect of our listeners' lives. And I want to thank

00:10:09.720 you all, our listeners. The show would not be possible without you all. There are a bajillion

00:10:15.120 podcasts out there that you could be listening to now. So we appreciate that we're part of your lineup.

00:10:20.280 Thank you for listening to the show. Thank you for sending us nice letters. Thank you for the podcast

00:10:25.580 reviews. Thank you for making donations to the site. And thanks for spreading the word about AOM.

00:10:31.760 You guys really are amazing. I mean, one of the compliments I get from our guests after they come

00:10:35.540 on the show is how engaged you guys are more than any other show they've been on. They just talk about

00:10:41.120 how, wow, after I was on your show, I got all these nice letters and emails from your audience. And that

00:10:45.440 doesn't happen when they go on other podcasts. I also want to give a big shout out to our listeners

00:10:49.400 who've been with us from nearly the very beginning. We really do appreciate the loyal,

00:10:55.060 longtime support and being with us for this long. So thank you all so much. And I also want to thank

00:11:00.500 you guys for sharing the show with others. Katie and I are pretty uncomfortable promoting and hyping

00:11:05.380 ourselves up. We don't have a social media team for Art of Manliness. We don't have a marketing team.

00:11:10.680 We like to go about things in a quiet, understated way. So we particularly appreciate those who hype the

00:11:16.480 show up for us and tell their friends and family about it. Thank you for spreading the word. And

00:11:20.500 we commit ourselves to continue to always do our best to produce shows worthy of your trust and

00:11:27.140 endorsement. So thank you all for being with us for this long, crazy journey that we've been on.

00:11:33.380 All right. So for this 1000th episode, I wanted to bring back a guest from the podcast earliest

00:11:37.180 days. We had some quality guests back then, but I can't really recommend listening to those episodes

00:11:41.140 because the interviews were short. My interview style wasn't that great. The audio quality was

00:11:45.700 really bad and I sounded like I was 12 years old. So I wanted to revisit and redo one of those early

00:11:51.240 episodes. And one that particularly reminded me of AOM's early days was episode number seven,

00:11:57.120 rules for my unborn son with writer and television and podcast producer, Walker Lamond. The reason why

00:12:03.280 rules for my unborn son reminds me of AOM's early days was that the blog that Walker started

00:12:09.800 in the 2000s was pretty popular around the same time I started AOM back in 2008. And he started this

00:12:17.020 blog when he was 25 before he had kids and he wanted to keep track of all the life lessons that

00:12:22.720 he wanted to pass on to his son when he had kids. And it's got the same ethos as AOM of trying to help

00:12:28.360 men become well-rounded, all-around good dudes. And it also reminds me of the early days of AOM because

00:12:37.100 this is a period where publishers were turning blogs into books. So Walker's blog was really

00:12:43.100 popular. Publisher picked it up, turned it into a book. Same thing happened to AOM. Our blog got

00:12:47.900 turned into a book. We produced that green book that a lot of you have. So I want to revisit with

00:12:52.360 Walker rules for my unborn son. We do some reminiscing about the old days of the internet

00:12:56.560 back in the 2000s. Then we talk about some of his evergreen rules and whether he's kept up with

00:13:02.020 them and whether he's been able to pass them on to his son. So I really enjoyed this conversation

00:13:05.760 with Walker. We had a lot of fun riffing on the rules and discussing whether they still apply

00:13:09.600 today. We do some not-so-serious, curmudgeonly old man complaints about things these days. So I

00:13:15.320 hope you enjoy this conversation as much as Walker and I enjoyed having it. So without further

00:13:20.520 ado, let's get to the 1000th episode of the Art of Manliness podcast. All right, Walker Lamond,

00:13:28.040 welcome back to the show. Thanks, Brett. It's good to hear from you again. It's been a long time.

00:13:33.200 It has been a long time. So you were one of the very first guests of the AOM podcast. You're

00:13:38.840 episode number seven. Yes, the seventh most important person that you could think of at the

00:13:45.840 time. That's awesome. Yeah. And so that was back in 2009. And we talked about your book,

00:13:53.160 Rules for My Unborn Son. We're going to talk about that again today. I want to bring you-

00:13:57.160 That old chestnut.

00:13:58.260 Yeah, we're going to do an update on it. But what have you been up to in the last 15 years?

00:14:03.200 Oh, man. Well, mostly raising a family. You know, I got married. I started raising kids and

00:14:10.860 done some traveling. But mostly I've just been working on being a dad. You know,

00:14:15.660 I've coached a little Little League. I've done a little Boy Scouting and generally kind of flailing

00:14:21.400 around trying to figure it out like the rest of us. But I have been traveling quite a bit. We live a

00:14:28.140 little bit of a nomadic lifestyle. My wife's in Foreign Service. So we have bounced around the

00:14:33.480 world living in the Middle East. And I'm calling in now from London, England. So staying busy as

00:14:40.480 much as I can, but mostly just trying to stay alive.

00:14:44.580 Didn't I see you, something about a motel, some kind of cool vintage motel that you were involved in?

00:14:49.420 Yes. Yeah. You know, that's great. You brought that up. You know, some people

00:14:54.220 have houses and get to do their DIY projects. But living around the world, I haven't had my own

00:14:59.220 house until, I guess, very recently. But a buddy of mine and I stumbled on this old mid-century

00:15:07.300 60s classic motel down in South Carolina and had the genius idea. Well, maybe it didn't seem so

00:15:15.980 genius at the time, but had a fun idea that we could renovate it and turn it into a fully

00:15:21.700 functioning, very cool motel. And believe it or not, we pulled it off. So three years later,

00:15:27.480 put a lot of work into it. And it's a going concern. It's called the Starlight Motor Inn

00:15:33.160 in North Charleston, South Carolina. Check it out. It's a great spot. We basically saved it off the

00:15:39.000 demolition block. And it's awesome. It's bringing a little life to a neighborhood that really needed it.

00:15:43.760 Yeah. I've seen pictures of it. It looks amazing. You guys kept the decoration,

00:15:47.960 that mid-century style. The motel keys, do they have the plastic thing that says,

00:15:53.200 you know, put in the mailbox to return? Yeah. We've got some souvenir keychains

00:15:57.620 if you want to go home with one of those. But the cool thing about it is that we did preserve it

00:16:01.480 as exactly how it was in 1961, which is why we got historic preservation status for the property.

00:16:07.680 But we've updated it. So we actually run the motel a lot like you would get an Airbnb.

00:16:12.820 You check in on your phone, you get texted a code, you go right to your room,

00:16:16.680 you don't even need a key. So it's kind of best of both worlds, which people seem to really dig.

00:16:22.420 Okay. Let's talk about rules for my unborn son. This is such a fun book. I've had my copy for 15

00:16:28.880 years. And it's one of those things that it's on my bookshelf. And every now and then I'll see the back,

00:16:34.360 the spine, and I'll just pull it off. I'll just flip through it. And it makes me nostalgic on

00:16:39.920 multiple levels. But I just love it because like the advice in it, the little rules,

00:16:44.820 they're good. They're good rules for men of any age to follow. And my wife was looking at it and

00:16:50.780 she was thumbing through and she said, this is such a winning book. But before it was a book,

00:16:55.580 it was a blog. And she started this blog before you were married, before you had kids, and you decided

00:17:00.700 to write down the rules you wanted to tell your future son. So let's talk about what you were like

00:17:07.240 when you started this blog. How old were you when you started the blog Rules for My Unborn Son?

00:17:12.900 That's a great question. If I remember correctly, I was probably about 25. But

00:17:18.440 the story of its origins, and first of all, thank you for those very nice things you said

00:17:24.000 about the book. I often pull it down and wonder, did this thing hold up? But no, it's nice for you to

00:17:30.780 say that. So when I was out of college, I was a wannabe novelist. I had kind of walked around with

00:17:37.860 a pocket full of notes and bar napkins. And this idea was really just born out of kind of journaling

00:17:44.740 and taking notes for what would inevitably be the great American novel. But so in a lot of ways,

00:17:51.760 it was kind of supposed to be a memoir. And I also lost my dad right after college. So he was always

00:17:58.160 kind of a central figure in what I thought I wanted to write about. And I found myself thinking a lot

00:18:04.580 about the things he taught me, whether told me explicitly or showed me by example. So I started

00:18:11.640 having this idea of, well, maybe it's not a novel, maybe it's not even a book or a memoir. But, you know,

00:18:17.480 maybe I just need to be jotting down these notes for myself. And this list kind of grew and grew.

00:18:22.180 And then there was this confluence of a lot of different things that happened. I mean, I was a

00:18:26.800 young writer in New York. So I initially thought, hey, you know, my ambition was, hey, maybe I could

00:18:33.040 sell an article to Esquire or something like that. The idea of a book was kind of far out and also

00:18:39.400 seemed incredibly daunting. But when I was up there, when we were about that age, you know, the internet

00:18:45.300 was kind of coming along. And I ran into a friend of mine who was in publishing and he was like,

00:18:51.280 look, the barriers to entry in this business are so hard. Why don't you start a blog? And of course,

00:18:56.080 I knew very little about blogs, but he said there was this great new website called Tumblr.

00:19:01.060 I don't know how many of your younger listeners will remember it, but it was this brief blip on the

00:19:07.220 digital landscape that was really amazing. And, you know, this is not a humble brag or anything,

00:19:13.380 but I might've been like the fifth signed up user on Tumblr or something absurd. And it was just

00:19:19.240 incredibly intuitive to just post your content and it looked good and you didn't have to know how to

00:19:24.280 code and you weren't writing these long journal entries. So this idea of giving the material away

00:19:29.980 for free and getting, you know, immediate feedback was really appealing to me and it was fun. And lucky

00:19:36.220 me, it also just happened to be that a lot of the publishing companies from the old days were looking

00:19:41.340 for ways to kind of, you know, modernize. And they started trolling the internet for new cool content

00:19:47.580 and I got really lucky. So I was one of these early blogs that got scooped up by a traditional

00:19:53.180 publisher and basically decided to print what was already available for free online. But that just

00:19:59.160 shows you that we were living right on that threshold between the old and the new.

00:20:03.380 Yeah. AOM got scooped up in the blog to book pipeline too. So I started the blog January,

00:20:08.660 February 2008 and I was approached for a book deal like 10 months later alongside other noteworthy

00:20:15.860 blogs to books like I can has cheeseburger stuff, white people like, but this is amazing time because

00:20:21.840 like publishers came looking for you. I didn't have to reach out to anybody and have to write a book

00:20:25.340 proposal. It was awesome. So when you started putting the stuff out on Tumblr, did it just take

00:20:30.400 off? I mean, I think it went viral because I mean, it seemed like you're all over the place at the time.

00:20:34.660 I mean, I guess it did by the standards of what 2003 or four. I'm trying to remember exactly

00:20:41.780 when this was all happening, but yeah, I mean, I remember, you know, there, there weren't many

00:20:47.780 websites up on Tumblr first of all, but I remember like the president of the company emailing and

00:20:52.640 saying, Hey, this is great. We really like your blog. It's doing great. It's got a hundred followers

00:20:57.640 followers or then a thousand followers or whatever. So yeah, it felt viral for whatever that was back

00:21:03.460 then. You know, I think I probably was one of their early runaway hits quickly to be surpassed by

00:21:09.940 Taylor Swift or whoever the first celebrity was to sign up on Tumblr, but it was fun. It was like this

00:21:14.920 moment when you felt like you didn't have to, you know, break through the wall around traditional

00:21:22.140 media. Right. So all of a sudden you could be a nobody and, and your story could get picked up in

00:21:28.080 magazines and, and, you know, a lot of digital magazines being like, Oh, here's this new thing.

00:21:32.220 You know, now I feel like things go viral, you know, once an hour. So it's a little bit of a

00:21:36.880 dubious title, but back then I think my five minutes of fame stretched to at least six or seven.

00:21:43.180 And there was something about that time, something about the internet just seemed more fun. Maybe it's

00:21:47.060 just because, you know, I'm being nostalgic about my twenties, but I think something has changed. It

00:21:52.640 was just, people just started stuff randomly. The internet then wasn't as heavily monetized as it is

00:21:58.740 now. And something about it just seemed a little bit more alive, a little less serious, a little less

00:22:03.960 high stakes. It just seemed more fun. I think you're right. And the less monetized part is, is true.

00:22:12.100 I remember people saying, why aren't you selling ads? And I remember thinking, no, man,

00:22:16.940 that's not the point. You know, there was actually a community spirit on Tumblr, especially at the

00:22:22.500 very beginning, that was super supportive and collaborative. It was the first time we kind of

00:22:29.540 had this idea of reblogging, which is kind of like, you know, showcasing other people's content.

00:22:35.740 So there was kind of a good vibe. And again, it was a world run by amateurs, which was really nice,

00:22:41.440 but like everything good in the world, it got professionalized and, you know, that works for

00:22:47.400 some it, but you always lose a little something, you know, also you and I, I'm not like we're the

00:22:53.040 grandfathers yet, but there were plenty of people doing awesome things back then online, but, you

00:22:58.340 know, it always feels good to be in a smaller pond. I mean, nowadays it's very hard to make a ripple in

00:23:03.300 the media world, in the digital world. So there was a little moment when it felt like,

00:23:07.140 Oh man, you know, there's only a few websites out there that people are going to read. It's nice to

00:23:13.080 be one of them. Yeah. The scene is over. That's right. It was like, we were like an early punk club.

00:23:19.960 It's like, Oh man, the internet's not the same anymore, but really, you know, just to being part

00:23:25.620 of any kind of fun confluence of coincidences, it's, it's awesome. Yeah. It really was a cool time

00:23:32.720 to be on the internet. I remember when we would put out an article, like how to tie a tie. We were

00:23:39.760 one of the few articles out there on the subject, on the whole internet. Now there's just so much

00:23:46.460 stuff out there, so much content, millions of articles, millions of videos. So yeah, it was a

00:23:50.640 fun time to have experienced. Okay. So let's talk about these rules. What were your sources for them?

00:23:56.160 How did you come up with them? You mentioned your father was a big source. Any other sources for these

00:24:01.600 rules? Well, my dad at first, and the idea was it, it was really like, I started thinking about,

00:24:08.080 you know, Oh, I got to remember all the things my dad's told me over the years. Cause again,

00:24:11.580 he had passed away and I wanted to remember things in case I was going to write a book or just in

00:24:15.520 general, just, I got to remember some of these funny things. And then that kind of the list kind

00:24:19.500 of added like, Oh, well, what were the quirky things about them? And then when I started putting

00:24:23.520 them online, mostly for, you know, I was looking for laughs really. I mean, it was,

00:24:28.760 I intended it to be more of a humor thing. And then, you know, people's, it's amazing what

00:24:33.900 positive feedback will do. It's like starts triggering like, Oh, well, all right, let's

00:24:37.940 keep rolling. It's like making a mixtape. It's like, you never want it to end. So I just kept

00:24:42.380 coming up with new stuff. And I kind of started adding the things that bothered me and then just

00:24:47.300 pulling from, you know, I'd stumble on an old photo of Paul Newman or some old speech by Winston

00:24:53.060 Churchill. And you never know what's going to inspire you. And then you think, Oh, that's,

00:24:57.560 that's a great rule. I'm going to add that. And so really it just kind of grew from there.

00:25:01.700 But my dad, my dad's always, he was the, he was the originator. A lot of this stuff,

00:25:06.280 if not all of it came from him or my grandfather or, you know.

00:25:10.360 Yeah. I mean, it sounds like the book was a way for you to remember your dad,

00:25:14.400 but also for your kids to know your dad too.

00:25:19.760 Yeah, for sure. You know, I wasn't really thinking about a family just yet, but I,

00:25:23.480 once this thing got going, I loved the idea of, Oh man, I'm going to have this like rule book for my

00:25:30.280 kids and, you know, kind of tongue in cheek, like how hilarious is it to have a kid and then hand

00:25:36.420 him this book of rules. Um, but I also knew in the back of my head that like, this will be a pretty

00:25:41.080 good manual for being a dad and kind of keep me on the straight and narrow just as much as my kid.

00:25:46.820 I mean, you know, the nineties in the early audies, they were kind of a, they were a wild,

00:25:52.760 wacky time. Right. I mean, rules were not kind of hip in the late nineties, early audies. I mean,

00:25:58.840 we were kind of suffering from this abundance of choice and freedom and, you know, office casual.

00:26:06.000 And to some people that was like paradise, but I think for a lot of young men and maybe a lot of

00:26:13.680 young people in general, it almost felt like too much choice. And there was a little bit of a,

00:26:18.820 a craving for like, well, just tell me what to do, man. You know, like, just give me some

00:26:24.100 parameters because without parameters, I'm a little lost. And I think that was part of the appeal of

00:26:31.780 kind of this, you know, in pop culture, you saw this throwback to like the sixties, like,

00:26:36.900 you know, suits got a little trimmer, you know, people watching mad men and yes, a little bit,

00:26:43.300 it was romanticizing the past, but I think it was also just this yearning for a time when there felt

00:26:47.940 like there were less choices and maybe some more rules and maybe some like stricter value judgments

00:26:54.840 on like, what is good? What is bad? I think at the time people were craving that a little bit.

00:27:00.560 I know I was, I mean, geez, I look back at my pictures in the nineties. I'm like,

00:27:05.240 I wish someone had marched me into a barbershop with a picture of Johnny Unitas pinned to my chest

00:27:10.660 because of all the bad haircuts I had. And so I think that that was part of the thing that I was

00:27:17.360 trying to do with the book is, is appeal to that, you know, kind of romantic notion of when you just

00:27:23.340 had a closet of gray suits and white shirts. Yeah. Right. Life was simpler. Cause yeah, the, the,

00:27:28.100 you know, the book has this, uh, you know, great vintage vibe. It looks like something that came

00:27:33.040 from the 1950s inside. You have these great pictures of, you know, they're all black and

00:27:38.180 white. You know, you got Cary Grant, Jackie Robinson in here, just random stock photos from

00:27:43.880 the fifties and sixties of, you know, kids getting in fistfights and playing baseball. Um, and it's,

00:27:50.900 it's interesting that you mentioned your sort of your theory of what was going on. Like,

00:27:53.740 why did men our age find this appealing? That sort of the throwback, I think there was a bit

00:27:59.620 of nostalgia and romanticism. You know, I started AOM around the same time, 2008, and I decided to go

00:28:04.520 with that sort of vintage man vibe, right? Calling to our grandfather's generation. And yeah, at the

00:28:10.900 same time you had, yeah, Mad Men was really popular. You had all these clothing brands developing

00:28:16.000 heritage lines, right? So they're going back to their archives and bringing out clothes from the

00:28:21.220 thirties, forties, and fifties. And I think the idea that men our age, they just wanted some,

00:28:26.120 some parameters. So you, you wrote the book or you started writing the blog before you were a dad.

00:28:33.340 And I think all of us who are dads now probably had this idealized version of what we would be

00:28:40.560 like as fathers and what we would teach our sons. You know, I remember thinking like, Oh,

00:28:44.900 my kids are only going to play with wooden blocks. They're not going to use video games, whatever.

00:28:49.720 So eventually your hypothetical son became a real son and he's now a teenager. So how have you done

00:28:58.080 in imparting the rules that you wrote when you were 25 years old to your son?

00:29:03.980 That's a great question. Pretty good. I think, I mean, you're totally right. I mean, when I

00:29:08.780 was writing these rules, I was being a little cheeky. I mean, I am not a parenting expert.

00:29:13.060 I was not even a dad yet. I had no experience. So that kind of, I felt like was letting me off the

00:29:18.440 hook of any kind of professional standard, but you know, it turns out that I've been pretty good.

00:29:24.160 I mean, but I think, you know, my sons, I have three kids of two sons, you know, they keep the

00:29:30.940 book nearby. I don't know the last time they cracked it, but I could see the rules seeping into their,

00:29:36.020 their day to day. But I really think it's probably less about, you know, my advice or my rules than just

00:29:44.080 about me being present. You know, I'm very present in my kids' lives. I'd like to think. And, um,

00:29:51.100 so, you know, my kids do a pretty good job. I, at some point I thought, oh man, I'm going to hand

00:29:56.460 them this book. And this is like a recipe to do the exact opposite. I know if I was in their shoes,

00:30:00.920 I'd probably be like, oh really dad, I'm going to do the exact opposite. And to be fair, I do have a

00:30:05.560 16 year old. So who knows what is in store in the next couple of years, but, uh, we, we do. All right.

00:30:11.800 We do. All right. That's good. So yeah, I mean, the rules are there. Maybe they crack it open and

00:30:15.780 it's, you know, rubbing off a little bit, but it sounds like just living the rules yourself is

00:30:21.420 probably doing more than the, the book itself. Yeah. And that, and, and that to be fair,

00:30:26.360 is probably harder than my kids following the rules. You know, I mean, holding yourself to your

00:30:30.300 own high standards, is that not one of the hardest things to do in the world? Oh, super hard. Yeah.

00:30:34.520 I have, I get grief about that all the time. I was going to say running, running,

00:30:38.220 the art of manliness. I mean, you've got to walk around, you know, like Charles Atlas

00:30:43.400 reciting Socrates all day. Yeah. If, if you're to be believed and have the charm and style of

00:30:48.820 Cary Grant. Yeah. Every now and then, you know, we have like that article that we wrote a long time

00:30:52.900 ago. Every man should carry a pocket knife. And sometimes I don't have a pocket knife on me.

00:30:58.040 And so my wife's like, Hey, we need a pocket knife. Like, Oh, I don't have one. It's like,

00:31:00.720 you wrote an article called every man should carry a pocket knife. Why don't you have a pocket knife?

00:31:06.160 Same thing with cash. Like we haven't, every man should carry cash. Yeah. Yeah. This is why I'm

00:31:10.460 not allowed to leave the house in shorts or sandals, you know, no matter how hot it is or how much I

00:31:14.900 want to go to the beach. Yeah. Yeah. It's tough to live by your own standards, but. Yeah. You got to,

00:31:18.880 yeah. But I'm glad they're there. It's something to aspire, aspire to. That's right. They're guardrails.

00:31:23.840 They're guardrails. Yeah. That's, I like that. Are there any rules that you thought were good in theory,

00:31:28.580 but you found difficult to put into practice as you've moved into middle age?

00:31:33.000 Yeah, probably. You know, some, some become kind of obsolete and some change when you get married

00:31:40.460 because you have to adapt to being part of a partnership. Let's see. Well, you know,

00:31:46.440 I used to swear by making sure you read a newspaper every day. That was one of them, but a, you know,

00:31:53.060 you'd be hard pressed to find a paper newspaper unless you're living in a downtown area these days. But,

00:31:57.680 and also, you know, that I think I'm more of a podcast guy now. So I'm not very good at reading

00:32:03.220 the newspaper every day. There was another rule that I was thinking, Oh, and, uh, sleeping with

00:32:08.540 the window open, which is something I've done my entire life. I never had air conditioning as a kid,

00:32:12.980 even living in hot, humid DC, but my wife has allergies and we moved to London and we realized that

00:32:19.760 if we leave the window open, she's absolutely miserable. So I'm trying to adapt to a closed window

00:32:25.540 life, which is not easy. You know, one that I had, I was just looking at the other day

00:32:30.440 that I've totally changed my mind on, not because I, I'm just not good at following it, but I had said

00:32:36.720 like, you should always aim high and basically like poking fun of being like an accountant, right? I was

00:32:42.560 like, no one dreams of being an accountant or something like that. Well, now as I'm older, I'm thinking,

00:32:47.720 you know, I'm less about following passions and dreams and more about just finding what you're good at

00:32:53.700 and kind of scratching away at your little corner of the world and, and making a difference. So like

00:32:59.160 if my kid decided he was really good at accounting, then I'm all for it. Yeah. That's, that's a advice

00:33:04.920 from Cal Newport. We've had him on to talk about his book. Oh, nice. Yeah. Good. They can't ignore

00:33:09.320 you. Um, it's basically advice. Don't follow your passion, like follow what you're good at and then

00:33:14.440 just dig deep into that. Scott Galloway says the same thing. Scott says, if anyone's ever telling

00:33:18.880 you to follow your passion, he's already rich. Right. Yeah. What about this one? Another one

00:33:25.320 was, uh, when in doubt, wear a tie. Does that still hold true? Or do you think the, uh, the sun has

00:33:30.460 sank on tie wearing? It's a great question. Yes. I still think you should wear a tie. I know that seems

00:33:36.440 absurd these days, but you know, I still lean on overdressing rather than underdressing. I like the

00:33:44.620 look of a tie. I realized that it's getting really close to feeling kind of performative,

00:33:50.060 which is not a good thing because I generally hope the rules in general kind of encourage

00:33:57.300 humility and like a dismantling of the ego more than, you know, putting on a show. But,

00:34:02.840 but I still love wearing ties and, you know, I'm not some fashion guru by any means, but I'll tell you

00:34:09.480 a suit looks terrible without a tie. It just does. Yeah. It was that this shirt was designed to have

00:34:14.840 a tie around it. It's, you know, tough when you go to a dinner party and you're the only guy in a

00:34:21.860 tie and you know, you don't want the thing about, okay. So the thing about dressing up is it's a

00:34:29.380 courtesy dress codes and dressing up. It's always been about a courtesy and being polite is about making

00:34:34.920 other people feel good, about making people, you know, comfortable. And I always tell my kids, if we're

00:34:42.060 going to like an adult's house, I said, look, it's not that they are requiring you to dress up. This is not a

00:34:48.160 fancy occasion, but it's a way of showing them respect. I thought enough to get myself cleaned up. It's a

00:34:54.720 show of respect. But if you're interviewing with your future boss and he's in a t-shirt and a sweatshirt or

00:35:01.900 something, maybe it's being in a suit is making him feel uncomfortable. So this world is changing

00:35:08.020 so fast, right? But you kind of have to be able to adjust and say, you don't want to make your

00:35:13.900 dressing up so performative that it actually makes other people uncomfortable or make them feel

00:35:20.000 underdressed. Because again, being courteous is about making people feel good about themselves.

00:35:25.820 You don't, you probably don't want to outdress your boss or your host. That could be a counterproductive.

00:35:32.700 I like that idea. When you, you dress well, it's not for you, but it's for others. We wrote an article

00:35:37.880 about that called dressing for others. You know, Benjamin Franklin said, eat to please thyself,

00:35:42.840 but dress to please others. Totally. There's a style writer that we like, Russell Smith. He said,

00:35:47.220 think of your appearance as a gift to others. So I think when I'm going to a nice dinner party or I'm at

00:35:52.380 church or something, the way I present myself, I'm trying to like add to the ambiance to the

00:35:57.100 situation. That's my philosophy.

00:35:59.700 Again, it goes back to courtesy. It's like, for example, if I'm spending money, which might be a

00:36:05.600 lot of money to me to take my wife to a dinner at a nice restaurant and the guy next to me wears sweats,

00:36:12.180 it makes me feel less. It makes me feel that my dinner is less special, right? This might be the

00:36:19.460 most expensive restaurant I can afford. I'm putting on a jacket. I'm wearing a collared shirt.

00:36:23.980 But if the guy next to me is in sweats, he's saying, this is basically my McDonald's. And

00:36:28.600 what's special to me is not special to him. And that makes me feel bad. You know? So I do think

00:36:34.340 that, again, it kind of goes back to courtesy, you know? And it's like, if you have an opportunity to

00:36:39.960 make other people feel like the space you're sharing is special, then that's cool. You know?

00:36:47.700 I think it's just always makes things feel a little more pleasant. Think about the feeling

00:36:52.380 you get when you're invited to a special party and you walk in and everyone's in a tuxedo.

00:36:57.400 You don't go, you don't say to yourself, oh, this is so lame. You go, wow, this is swanky event.

00:37:03.900 I'm happy to be included in this. This feels good. This feels special. So I think you can go through

00:37:10.780 life looking at it that way. You know? I mean, every opportunity you get to just make your waking

00:37:15.700 moment a little more special is great. Does that mean you can't wear sweats to the Starbucks in

00:37:19.520 the morning? No, of course not. We're not walking around in the 20s here. But taking a little extra

00:37:24.800 care in our appearance, I do think is important. We're going to take a quick break for your words

00:37:29.740 from our sponsors. And now back to the show. All right, well, let's talk about some of these rules.

00:37:39.200 We're just going to do like rapid fire and discuss some of my favorites. And what I think also,

00:37:43.980 too, one of the reasons why men have found the book so appealing is men like to talk about rules.

00:37:49.940 Like when you get together and you want to share your rules for life and because they can provide

00:37:55.180 a lot of like, oh yeah, I agree with that too. And you can riff off of it. But also,

00:37:59.240 and you talk about in this book, like you hope it raises some opposition. Like you want people to

00:38:03.960 object and like tell me why this, you think my rule stinks and like why your rule is better.

00:38:07.940 So we're going to, we're going to hit on some of these. So one of your rules is men with facial

00:38:12.200 hair have something to hide. Yeah. Usually, usually their chins, but that's usually why we

00:38:19.420 grow them, right? Because we've got, we've got an extra one or maybe none at all. You know,

00:38:24.840 when I wrote that, it's funny, that one came straight from my dad. I remember him telling me

00:38:28.600 that, I don't know, we were like looking at a picture of somebody on TV and he just,

00:38:33.440 he had a thing about beards. But when I wrote that, this was like pre-beard mania. I mean,

00:38:39.340 the world has gone crazy for beards since then, you know, and I am guilty of trying out my,

00:38:44.640 my rugged desert beard when I was in Jordan. It did not suit me. But you know, look,

00:38:50.780 you want to wear a beard, that's great. But I think it's healthy to admit that a beard is a kind

00:38:57.180 of disguise, right? It's a disguise and that's fine. Not all disguises are bad. Sometimes,

00:39:03.420 you want to just change your look up really quick and a beard's a great disguise to wear. But

00:39:07.340 you know, it is a bit of a mask. Whether I can trust you, Brett, I think I can. You've proven

00:39:13.520 your worth. You're in my, you're in my circle of honor. Yeah. Nietzsche said a mustache is a mask,

00:39:19.260 which is interesting because he had a mustache. He rocked a really big furry caterpillar there.

00:39:23.800 And I'm always wondering like, man, what mask am I wearing with my mustache? I will say this. So,

00:39:28.220 yeah, there was that beard maniacs, the whole lumberjack,

00:39:30.640 retro-sexual thing that happened. Everyone had beards and the high and tight side part.

00:39:36.420 Something I've been noticing now though, when I'm out in public is a lot of younger guys

00:39:40.740 rocking the mustache. So I was doing the mustache since 2009. It's been a part of my look.

00:39:46.440 I think it suits me well. But now I'm seeing a lot of, and I'd always get compliments from guys like,

00:39:51.540 oh man, I wish I could grow a mustache like that. And I'm like, well, just grow it. And you got to find

00:39:56.080 out if it works for you, but I'm seeing like, I'll, I'll be at the gas station. I had a guy come in

00:40:01.480 who's probably in his thirties, uh, fix my refrigerator rocking the mustache. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

00:40:08.200 like, like anything cool, it probably started as irony and then gets mainstreamed. But you know,

00:40:13.800 the mustache is an elegant version of the beard. I was just listening to this great podcast about

00:40:18.160 George Custer's last stand and that great podcast. The rest is history. You know, that one,

00:40:22.840 that's a good one. Um, anyway, and he, they were talking about how, like in the civil war,

00:40:26.640 like all the generals had beards. And then at some point after, as we get into the Indian wars,

00:40:33.160 like all the generals moved to the mustache, it was considered a little more elegant. And I think

00:40:38.140 this was a European thing, but, um, you know, as soon as you see the mustaches on the frat guys and

00:40:44.920 the jocks, I think is when, you know, it's probably almost over. Yeah. I'll admit, I've been kind of like,

00:40:51.340 man, maybe I should shave my mustache off. Cause this, this scene is over.

00:40:55.240 I think my dad, my dad was, you know, probably just reacting to the seventies and his abject terror

00:41:03.400 of all things free and easy. And, uh, I, I just remember that all my uncles, they would invite

00:41:11.640 their buddies over when I was growing up and they'd all be sitting on the back porch of my

00:41:14.560 grandmother's house, like playing almond brothers, like without shirts on and jean shorts. And they all

00:41:19.400 had, they look like the almond brothers. They all had mustaches. So I've just always associated with

00:41:24.260 that, like very special time of, um, of those types of dudes. Another one you got is take the

00:41:30.820 stairs. That's that we have that rule in our family too. Yeah. That's, that seems to be right

00:41:35.920 up your alley. That's like a very art of manliness thing, right? Mostly for exercise. Is that why you

00:41:40.580 guys do it? Mostly for exercise. You know, Michael Easter, he wrote the comfort crisis. We had him on

00:41:45.080 the podcast and he says, I don't know where you got the statistic, but it says only 2% of the people

00:41:50.640 take the stairs and that we should all be two percenters. So that's what we, that's what I

00:41:55.460 think when I see the stairs, like, all right, I'm going to be a 2% or 2%. Wow. Yeah. I mean,

00:42:01.520 exercise is always better. You got to kind of take it when you can get it, but also just making things

00:42:07.240 harder in general. I mean, some people are like, you know, hunting their own dinner. Um, I don't know if

00:42:13.160 we need to make it that hard on ourselves, but, but little things is, is probably a good idea,

00:42:17.920 but mostly it's just to take care of the ticker, right? I mean, I got to take advantage of every

00:42:21.940 opportunity I can to exercise, especially if you work at a desk or something like that. See, I'm a,

00:42:26.960 I'm a health guru too. You got some great health advice. I also think it's just annoying. Like when

00:42:31.580 there's an escalator, it's always annoying because I, people just stand there and it just takes

00:42:35.860 forever. And I think people use escalators wrong. Like, I don't think they're originally designed or maybe

00:42:41.060 I'm, maybe I'm just imputing this. I don't know if it's right. I don't think they're originally

00:42:44.480 designed just to stand there on the step. Like I don't think it's a ride. You're supposed to like

00:42:50.120 walk and it just gets you up faster. That's right. That's right. If you, if you impede

00:42:55.820 walking traffic on an escalator in London, you will, um, attract the wrath of the locals, which

00:43:03.520 usually means it's just a slight stern look, but yeah, that's, that's a big no, no here in London.

00:43:09.880 All right. So take the stairs, be a two percenter. I like that one. All right. Then another rule I

00:43:13.540 liked is talent is learned. Learn to sing. Yeah. Have you learned to sing? I, that's one of my

00:43:20.520 regrets in life. I don't know how to sing in like the parts, you know, if I'm singing in church.

00:43:24.360 I mean, I've never had formal training, but I was in a choir when I was in high school and

00:43:28.520 I love singing in church because I mean, when else are you going to be around a bunch of other people

00:43:33.700 that also cannot sing at all, but you're encouraged to sing loud. You've got notes in front of you.

00:43:39.400 You've got people who know the words, such a good time to practice. You know, and I tell my kids

00:43:44.360 this all the time. It's really not about singing in church. It's about participating and like

00:43:51.640 courage, right? The courage to do something new. I used to, it used to drive me crazy when people

00:43:58.580 would say, oh, I just can't draw or, oh no, no, I can't sing. You know? And for me as a, as a young

00:44:06.440 writer, I was an English major, people would say, oh, I'm really a terrible writer. And you know,

00:44:11.660 all these things are just, they're just skills. They're just skills that you learn. Yeah. I mean,

00:44:17.140 sure. Some people are born like Mariah Carey or something and have, you know, a natural talent,

00:44:22.780 but most talents are learned. I think Chuck Yeager said, no one's born a fighter pilot, right? I mean,

00:44:30.640 so like anything else, you dedicate a little time. If you want to know how to sing or at least not

00:44:35.700 sound ridiculous at the next karaoke, go, go take a week and practice. It's probably not as hard as

00:44:42.020 you think. Yeah. Yeah. One of your rules related to that is, and you mentioned church, when it's

00:44:46.160 time to sing in church, sing. And I'm a big believer in that too. Even if I, I'm not a very

00:44:50.140 good singer, I belt it out. I think it's kind of lame and just kind of, you know, not cool when

00:44:54.980 your churchgoers treat congregational singing, like they're spectators at a concert. They just

00:44:59.620 stare blankly. Man, it just feels great to sing. And you don't, yeah, you said you don't get that

00:45:04.000 many opportunities for communal singing in modern life. Yeah. And it feels great also because A,

00:45:09.700 America has fantastic worship songs in general. I mean, I go to church in England and believe me,

00:45:16.800 like singing American folk songs and, you know, gospel songs is a hell of a lot more fun than,

00:45:23.460 you know, the classical songs. So we have that going for us. And it's just such a good expression

00:45:28.760 of community. Right. I mean, I, I love a big sing along. I mean, we like them in a bar. We like

00:45:34.480 them around the campfire. You know, if you give the kids permission to not participate, then they're

00:45:41.280 never going to. Right. So like all these rules, you force them at the beginning, then it becomes

00:45:46.900 habit. Then you enjoy it. It's a process. Right. And the courage to do it. I mean, it'd be one thing

00:45:55.800 if we were saying, Hey, you got to come to church and everyone's got to sing a solo. Everybody get up

00:46:00.620 at the front and do your part. No, you're saying you're, you've got the safety of this big group.

00:46:05.320 Like what a better time to practice. It's like learning how to draw in an art class. You're in a

00:46:10.860 supportive environment. Take advantage of it. So here's a controversial one. Men should not wear

00:46:16.440 sandals ever. Yeah. I'm sticking to that one here. I'm sticking to my guns. Why, why, why are you

00:46:21.640 going to stick to that one? Oh man. I mean, it's like, again, it feels a little like, and I don't

00:46:28.940 want to sound like a stick in the mud, but I can't, I still can't shake the feeling. Now, listen, I,

00:46:34.020 do I wear shorts sometimes? Yes. Have I worn a pair of flip-flops to the beach? Yes. But I always

00:46:39.520 can't shake the feeling that there's like this certain selfishness that goes with prioritizing

00:46:45.020 your own comfort. And that could be kind of like the old Protestant in me or something. But I mean,

00:46:50.560 the same kind of goes for like wearing sweats outside the house. Like I get it. If it serves

00:46:55.660 a purpose, it's one thing you're on your way to the gym, but if you're living in sweatpants and you're

00:47:00.740 saying, but it's because I'm comfortable. Yeah. But it's also saying I prioritize myself over everyone

00:47:06.240 else. And I kind of like going through life a little bit of the opposite. And if it makes me

00:47:11.340 look like a goofball sometimes, that's fine too. I also don't think men's feet are going to win any

00:47:16.140 beauty prizes. Um, so. You know, what's funny, uh, my son Gus, he hates, he thinks men should not wear

00:47:23.620 sandals ever too. He came up with that on his own. He's like, men's feet are not good looking. They

00:47:27.780 shouldn't display them. Yeah. It's like Elaine from Seinfeld when she goes, men's body is like a Jeep.

00:47:33.100 It's for getting around. It's not a thing of beauty. Yeah. I don't wear sandals all that often.

00:47:37.920 I'll wear sandals if like I'm going, you know, rafting in a river and I just, I need that.

00:47:43.440 Yes. But my, but my, that's gear. That's gear. Yeah. That's gear. It serves a purpose. You know,

00:47:48.720 for a summertime shoe, I wear this slip on. It's like a woven slip on. So it feels like a sandal,

00:47:53.960 but you can't see my toes and it's breathable. There are, there are many toe covering options out

00:47:59.900 there. Ladies and gentlemen, we have a, an abundance of shoe options. This is a rule that

00:48:05.920 I've been passing on to my kids, uh, cause they're really into basketball. They love to play basketball,

00:48:10.920 be a good passer, but don't forget to shoot. Yeah, man. My son, my youngest is getting into

00:48:17.900 hoops right now and it's so fun to watch him. It's so awesome. And I feel like, cause I tried playing

00:48:23.660 when I was a kid and I was like the classic two guard, like a little too nervous to bring it up

00:48:30.400 the court, always dishing it. But like, I never really had the guts to be the shooter, probably

00:48:36.820 cause I was afraid to miss and, you know, ruin the possession or whatever. And so now when my kid's

00:48:41.480 playing, I'm like, Oh man, just shoot, just shoot. You're young, just shoot. And, you know,

00:48:48.080 being a generous and a good team player are always so important, but even in general in life,

00:48:55.100 success kind of requires a certain level of aggression and selfishness to some extent.

00:49:01.720 And every once in a while, you kind of got to take it yourself or you might live in this kind

00:49:06.540 of purgatory of like being decent, you know, being just good enough. So I'm always telling them,

00:49:12.240 just shoot. Plus when you're young, man, just take shots. Build resilience. See yourself miss.

00:49:18.200 And I mean, this starts to get into real cliche territory, but you know, you miss every shot

00:49:22.520 you don't take. Right. Yeah. Our kids will sometimes get the ball and they've got this

00:49:26.420 wide open shot, but then they just freeze and they pass it and dump it off to somebody. So we

00:49:31.840 have to tell them, take the shot. You got to take that shot. I mean, you got to be a generous passer,

00:49:36.820 but when you've got the open shot, you should take it. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. So another rule,

00:49:42.200 wear a sport coat when traveling by plane. It has easily accessible pockets. Is this something you still do?

00:49:48.500 Yeah. But this should, this should go on the list of obsolete rules because I avoid traveling by

00:49:54.120 plane now at like all costs. Yeah. Same. It's the worst. I mean, it's like nowhere seems as emblematic

00:50:00.760 as the, for the fall of civilization than an airplane. I despise it. I'd rather drive. I'd rather

00:50:06.600 take a train. And also like, I don't know, we don't even carry plane tickets anymore. A lot of your

00:50:11.540 listeners might not even realize that you used to have to carry a plane ticket. You know,

00:50:15.080 no one's got magazines. They're all staring at their phones. So what is there to carry?

00:50:19.400 I guess you're fine. Just getting on on your, in your sweatpants and your flip flops. But I prefer

00:50:24.940 to wear a coat mostly just so I can look a step better than the schlub next to me.

00:50:30.440 Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you. I, we, we hate flying. Most of our vacations now will just

00:50:35.120 the road trip. Yeah, it is the worst. We got an article called flying is for the birds talking

00:50:39.860 about why we don't like it. But when I do fly, I do have, I don't wear a sport coat. I actually

00:50:44.500 wear the, I call it my travel jacket.

00:50:46.100 Oh yes. That's like a safari jacket.

00:50:49.760 It is like that. I got it from the Jay Peterman company a long time ago.

00:50:53.540 Of course you did.

00:50:54.180 Yeah. They, they sponsored the blog, you know, back in 2009, they sent me this. It's a safari

00:50:59.520 jacket and I wear it when I fly because I get all these pockets so I can put things in.

00:51:03.460 I think, I think that's good. You know, there, there's a fine line though, between,

00:51:07.520 you know, that kind of like Peterman heritage gear and like full senior citizen travel gear.

00:51:14.900 Like it's all in the material. Like if, if it's Gore-Tex or like nylon, you might be in

00:51:19.320 like full German tourist mode. But if it's like a good proper, you know, army Chino, then

00:51:25.940 maybe you're in good shape.

00:51:26.980 I think it's good looking and you know, you don't have to carry paper tickets anymore,

00:51:31.040 but I still do like to get the paper tickets. But I think the, even if you don't carry paper

00:51:35.220 tickets, it comes in handy to have a travel jacket because you can use the pockets for your

00:51:39.320 phone, your wallet, maybe some pistachios, a snack for later on. Here's another rule.

00:51:44.900 You don't get to choose your nickname.

00:51:48.180 Yeah. And you know, who also doesn't get to choose their nickname? Grandparents.

00:51:53.160 My both, both my mother and mother-in-law, like both walked into the delivery room and

00:52:00.680 both insisted like, this is what the children will call me. And I was like, no, you don't get to do

00:52:05.920 that. They're supposed to like, try to pronounce your name and then whatever, you know, garbled mess

00:52:11.760 they come up with becomes your name. But of course I lost, I lost that battle.

00:52:17.040 No, that's an issue. I've been having this conversation more and more with my friends.

00:52:20.200 Cause now, you know, our kids are getting to teenage years. Some of my friends, their kids

00:52:24.900 are getting married. And so they're going to be grandparents soon. I'm like, we discussed like,

00:52:28.520 what do you want your kids to call you? Are you going to be a meemaw, a peepaw?

00:52:33.620 Yeah.

00:52:33.860 Or do you just want to be grandpa? I think it's interesting. Like, I feel like a lot of baby

00:52:37.480 boomers, like our parents' age, like they didn't want to be grandpa or grandma. It's always some

00:52:41.740 weird, like.

00:52:42.800 Yeah. My mom, well, you know, they, they all just wanted to insist on like some notion they've

00:52:48.340 always had in their head about a grandparent. I mean, if I get to choose, I want to be like

00:52:53.280 Colonel, you know, if we get to pick our own. Yeah. Call, I'd like to be called Colonel or

00:53:00.380 something, but, but, uh, but no, you shouldn't get to pick. And especially when you're a kid.

00:53:04.520 Yeah. Like George Costanza, that Seinfeld, we wanted T-bone. T-bone. T-bone.

00:53:10.300 No, it doesn't work that way.

00:53:11.220 Instead, he's Coco the monkey boy, right? That, that suited him better.

00:53:15.820 No, uh, my son, Gus is actually, he's really great at coming up with nicknames and he gives

00:53:21.140 everyone a good nickname and it, it sticks. Like there's people that his friends, he's

00:53:26.260 like, this is, you know, some weird nickname. And that's, that's what I call the guy. Now

00:53:30.220 he's not, I don't know his actual Christian name.

00:53:32.640 I mean, I love it. And like, you know, college was great for that. Like, you know, I was in

00:53:38.160 a fraternity and there's all like college nicknames. There's always like a little undertone

00:53:43.440 of menace or being picked on or something, but those are the best. Those nicknames are what

00:53:48.720 stick. And also learn to be a little self-deprecating. If you walk in and someone's

00:53:53.200 like, Oh man, you look like a parrot. We're going to call you parrot head or something.

00:53:59.020 Roll with it, roll with it.

00:54:00.220 Lean into it. Right. I mean, like what makes you unique? You know, that's cool. People are

00:54:05.240 seeing something unique about you. Lean into it.

00:54:08.120 Yeah. The nicknames, it's how men like that shows, like, I wanted you to be a part of my

00:54:12.880 group. Like, I think you're great. I'm going to give you this, uh, in term of endearment,

00:54:17.180 even if it is sort of, you know, deprecating, like I, in, in high school, my friends call

00:54:21.880 me mama Brett or mama McKay because I acted like the mom when we were out, you know, I

00:54:26.480 was trying to take care of everybody and like, Hey, let's not do this. Cause we might get

00:54:29.380 in trouble. So they call me mama and that's fine. Uh, and we, my son, there's this kid

00:54:35.760 in his youth group at church. He was a new kid. And after a while, my son thought, I was

00:54:41.320 like, Hey, here's the nickname. And this kid is like, don't ever call me that. And you

00:54:46.840 know, he just, he was kind of on the outs with the group after that.

00:54:50.140 Yeah. You know, it's about a little sense of humor. You got to keep your sense of humor.

00:54:54.940 Yeah. All right. So you got one, this is a good one. Call your mom.

00:54:59.180 Yeah. Yeah. I probably should have been better at that as a kid. That would, that was probably

00:55:02.320 a rule written out of my own guilt. But now that, I mean, now that you're a parent, Brett,

00:55:10.000 like you, all you want to do is make your kids strong enough to be independent. Right. I mean,

00:55:15.420 that's like your goal, send them off in the world, leave the nest. But like, I remember doing that

00:55:21.040 and just feeling like, I don't have to check in with my parents anymore. And now as a parent,

00:55:25.180 I'm like, Oh my God, it's going to kill me if my kids don't check in and just, I want to see how

00:55:30.420 their life is doing. And you know, cause they're your friends or at least you consider them someone

00:55:35.720 who you really enjoy being with. So it will be tough when those calls start to peter out,

00:55:41.340 maybe even tougher for mom. I don't know. Maybe it'll be tougher for me. I don't know.

00:55:45.160 Yeah.

00:55:45.620 But I don't even know if the kids call anybody anymore. I don't know if my kids know how to

00:55:50.900 use a telephone. They certainly don't call anybody, even their friends. They, they text. And I think

00:55:57.840 not to get all, you know, we don't want to get into that realm of like, Oh, what's wrong with youth

00:56:02.820 today? But there's something lost in not picking up the phone and talking to someone and hearing

00:56:07.580 their voice. And I miss it. And I miss it. And I should be better at picking up the phone and

00:56:12.000 calling my own mom. Hey mom, I'll call you later.

00:56:16.900 No, it's good. Yeah. You don't want to, you want to be the, uh, turn into the cats in the cradle

00:56:20.120 song. Oh geez.

00:56:22.460 Yeah. My boy is just, he's just like me. I don't want to.

00:56:25.560 I remember, I remember playing that song for my dad when I was, you know, like 14 thinking,

00:56:31.300 I don't even know what I was trying. I wasn't trying to like prove a point or anything, but

00:56:35.240 like he got really upset and was like, Oh my God, is that what you think? I'm like, no,

00:56:39.560 no, I was just playing it. Cause I think it's clever, you know?

00:56:42.920 All right. Here's another one. Don't personalize your license plates. I agree. Hard agree on that

00:56:47.920 one.

00:56:49.340 Yeah. I, uh, I'm also against bumper stickers, not a big bumper sticker guy, but again, it's,

00:56:54.980 it's kind of like, you know, I don't know. I think in the future, maybe a little mystery,

00:57:01.300 is going to be the currency. I mean, when, when there are no more secrets and we are just

00:57:07.060 walking around like these billboards of all of our personal thoughts and opinions and politics

00:57:13.440 and style, like, I think a little bit of mystery is going to be the new currency. So, uh, you know,

00:57:19.180 wouldn't, I, I don't need to know that you're a mama's favorite or beach lover. I like, all right,

00:57:27.040 you don't got the deathly hollows decal on your, you're a stranger. It's cool. I get it. You like

00:57:35.040 to fish and you've got the sticker on the back. Anyway. Um, whatever. I don't mean to sound like

00:57:39.600 I'm too critical that, that, that, that falls into the, uh, just have some mystery. I like that.

00:57:45.240 I like that idea. Here's another one that I'm a big believer in when you're older coach. It sounds

00:57:50.740 like you did some coaching for your kids. I've done some coaching. I've, I've just retired my,

00:57:55.460 I coached my last season of flag football. Oh, it's, it's the best. And you don't even have

00:58:00.240 to be a dad to do it. It's probably even better that you're not a dad. In fact,

00:58:04.020 you know, coaching a team that your kid is not on is even better. But I, I, I tried out some

00:58:10.860 coaching and I was coaching baseball and I didn't even play baseball when I was growing up. But I

00:58:15.480 figured if I, I just needed to be like, you know, one step better than the kids I was coaching

00:58:21.140 and I'd be fine. But I, you know, I was telling my wife after, you know, we won some game at the

00:58:28.000 end of the season or something. And I remember thinking I am never more in the moment than I am

00:58:34.540 when I'm coaching. Like here I am standing at like the first baseline of this little league game.

00:58:41.420 And these kids are like eight years old and some kids deep in the count and the games on the line.

00:58:47.560 And I'm thinking nothing except this game. I mean, you were so in the moment. I mean, there are

00:58:52.980 other elements like, you know, it's not, it's nice to mentor kids. It's nice to make friends with kids

00:58:58.180 that aren't your own. I think those are all really special things, but also from like a selfish point

00:59:03.920 of view, you are so in the moment when you're coaching and that is pure. That's pure. And people,

00:59:10.560 you know, people get that in meditation. They get that in exercise. I think in coaching,

00:59:15.880 it's another way of just really losing yourself in a moment. I mean, it's almost like, you know,

00:59:21.680 playing an instrument or something like just kind of shutting off the rest of the world. I absolutely

00:59:26.200 loved it. Yeah. Loved it. Yeah. My advice for dads is if you're on the fence, whether you should coach

00:59:32.000 or not and you're thinking, well, I just don't know enough, just do it. You're going to be fine.

00:59:35.960 I've, I coached basketball. I'd played basketball, like maybe two seasons when I was a kid.

00:59:40.180 And it was actually, I only coached basketball one game because we showed up and the kids didn't

00:59:45.740 have a coach and all the parents were looking around like, what are we doing? So I was like,

00:59:49.860 all right, I'm going to take, I'm going to take control here. I'm going to put things into action.

00:59:54.100 So I just got the kids warming up and I was just thinking about all the basketball montages I've

00:59:59.860 seen in movies. And I created my practice session based around, it was like Hoosiers. Like,

01:00:05.100 what do they do in Hoosiers? I was going to say, suddenly you're Gene Hackman and Hoosiers.

01:00:07.840 Yeah. That's what I did. And it worked out.

01:00:09.300 All right, boys. Don't, don't get caught watching the paint dry.

01:00:12.240 That's right. Here's another, this one's been controversial. I think we talked about it last

01:00:17.580 time. A man's luggage doesn't roll. Do you still abide by that one?

01:00:23.260 God, that is a controversial one, isn't it?

01:00:25.440 Yeah. Wheelie luggage.

01:00:27.680 Yeah. Wheelie luggage. It's kind of come a long way since then. You know, if I'm traveling by myself,

01:00:32.780 I'm not bringing wheels. I'm not, but I am a family man now.

01:00:37.160 So when you're in charge of hauling the family luggage, I'm throwing it all in the big wheelie.

01:00:43.500 I still like, like an over the shoulder duffel, but you know, I'm not going to give anybody a hard

01:00:50.760 time for getting one of these fancy roller suitcases. They're pretty, they're pretty sweet.

01:00:54.860 They are. Yeah. I think it's one of the things you have to adapt as you get older.

01:00:58.220 I think that was a rule a friend of mine sent me. We were like on one of these wedding weekends.

01:01:02.740 And when you're single, how about this? A single man's luggage shouldn't roll. I remember we,

01:01:07.200 you know, if you show up on like one of these single weekends, whether it's like a bachelor

01:01:10.140 party or a wedding, you don't really want to, you don't want to walk up with the rolly suitcase.

01:01:16.420 You know, you want the over the shoulder backpack. There's a little bit of a kind of,

01:01:21.220 you know, devil may care insouciance to a duffel. You know, you, you don't want to look

01:01:27.440 like a businessman out on his, on a sales call.

01:01:32.180 Right. Yeah. And related to that, you know, the packing for your travel and never,

01:01:35.260 never pack more than you can carry yourself. If you're a single guy and you're traveling alone,

01:01:38.900 I think that's good advice.

01:01:40.860 Yeah.

01:01:41.460 Here's one that might be obsolete. Send postcards, write letters on paper.

01:01:46.560 Not obsolete.

01:01:47.520 Not obsolete. You think you're still a big believer in that?

01:01:49.240 I love sending postcards. You know what I do? I love when I go to like a, a cool bar or a hotel,

01:01:55.260 I love seeing if they have a postcard. And then as you're paying, this is a little tip

01:02:01.120 to your listeners. As you're paying the bill, write a note to a friend, just had dinner here.

01:02:07.680 It was great. And then, you know, send it off leaving the hotel. You can give it to the concierge.

01:02:13.420 Be like, Hey, could you put a stamp on this or send it when you get home? It's like,

01:02:16.680 it's better than sending a selfie. You know, everybody loves getting mail.

01:02:20.380 Oh, everyone loves getting mail.

01:02:21.360 So I love sending postcards. I mean, I, when I travel, I don't like go to the postcard store

01:02:26.260 and buy five and then go home and write postcards. I like the spur of the moment. And a lot of bars

01:02:30.420 is where you're going to get postcards nowadays. And also I'm a, I'm still a firm believer in thank

01:02:35.180 you notes. I love sending thank you notes. And for a little twist, I actually love collecting,

01:02:40.900 uh, old hotel stationary, which sounds like a goofy thing to do. But if you're in a hotel that still

01:02:47.200 has stationary, like a sheet or two on the desk or in the drawer, I love taking that home. And I

01:02:53.020 even have like old stuff that I used to get on eBay and stuff, you know, from fancy hotels that

01:02:57.760 I've never been to. It's kind of fun. Keeps them guessing.

01:03:00.340 Here's one. Never turn down a girl's invitation to dance. Have you been telling this to your son?

01:03:04.360 Yeah. If we could just get these kids today to actually have dances.

01:03:08.080 Right. I was, I wanted to talk about this. There's been a lot of talk about this. Like

01:03:12.540 young people these days, they don't dance anymore.

01:03:14.840 They, they, but they don't do, I mean, again, I'm gonna sound like the old man if I'm not careful.

01:03:19.180 They don't do much anymore together. Their, their participation in social events is

01:03:24.700 dropped dramatically. I think it's really unhealthy. Dancing. Yes. It's about courage. You never turn

01:03:31.360 down a woman's invitation to dance. Nobody. I don't care if she's 80 or she's a, your cousin who's

01:03:38.460 five. Be the guy that dances. Never be embarrassed. I mean, again, it's like every opportunity you have

01:03:45.580 to practice, the better. Saying yes to a dance does not mean you're getting married. But I think kids

01:03:51.560 are, are so protective these days and so risk averse that the idea of getting up there and dancing in

01:04:00.160 front of other people is terrifying. And believe me, it's probably been terrifying for generations

01:04:04.520 and generations of young men. But in the old days you would do it and you would get a dopamine rush

01:04:10.820 from contact with another human being from the dance itself. It's fun. You've got to let your

01:04:17.960 inhibitions down for a little bit, but now you've got that little dopamine rush in your pocket in the

01:04:23.820 form of your phone. So you just simulate that experience and it's really a bummer. It's a huge

01:04:31.180 shame. Plus the fact that like dancing, like anything else, it's just practice for more important

01:04:37.940 things in life. Like, you know, having a girlfriend, intimacy, all that kind of stuff, being a good

01:04:43.620 partner. My wife used to always remind me, she's like, you know, this is not a one man operation.

01:04:48.200 Don't dance at me. You got to dance with me. And I was like, that's such good advice. Like that's

01:04:53.660 the best couple's advice ever. Right. And you learn that stuff through dancing. I love dancing.

01:05:00.720 I agree with you. And I'm bummed that kids aren't dancing these days because yeah, you know, when I

01:05:05.040 was a kid, when I was a teenager, church would have like monthly dances. And I learned a lot about

01:05:10.380 interacting with the opposite sex through doing the dances. You'd learn how to, you're in this position

01:05:16.020 where you got to be respectful and like put your hands in the right place. And then you learn how

01:05:20.420 to lead the dance. So the girl feels comfortable and she's having a good time. Then you have to

01:05:25.060 learn how to have a conversation where you're just, you know, two feet away from her. And then

01:05:29.760 also you learn courage. Like I'm, there's this girl that I really like and I'm kind of intimidated,

01:05:35.500 but you learn the gumption. I'm going to go ask her to dance. One piece of advice that my mom

01:05:39.520 would give me before I went to one of these dances, she said, make sure you ask the girl who's not

01:05:43.680 getting asked to dance to dance. A hundred percent. Great advice. Yeah. Great advice.

01:05:49.580 And what's, what's my kid, you know, Gus is starting to go to dances for middle school

01:05:53.480 and I'll give him this advice like, Hey, you know, ask the girl to dance and really make her like,

01:05:57.660 he'll make her weak if you ask her to dance. And when he comes back, I'm like, did you, did you ask

01:06:02.140 the girl to dance? He's like, dad, people don't dance. We just kind of run around and say,

01:06:06.180 skip the toilet the entire time. I mean, it's, it's, it's insane. I mean, I had my teenage,

01:06:11.060 my high school kids come back from a, you know, kind of a school sanctioned dance and yeah,

01:06:17.140 it's a bunch of people sitting around watching each other on their phones and, and, you know,

01:06:23.320 partly dancing in the old days, you know, it's born out of not having a lot of opportunities to

01:06:30.200 get together with either the opposite sex or just in a big group. Right. And there wasn't a ton to do

01:06:35.480 anyway. So what a great thing to just cut loose. And, and again, I feel like kids probably have

01:06:41.520 too much of this artificial simulation, stimulation on the phones to, but they don't need to go out

01:06:48.380 and dance, but I think it's so healthy and I miss it. I mean, do you remember, do you remember in

01:06:54.400 the nineties, we even had like a dance craze, like a resurgence of like swing dancing? I mean,

01:06:59.700 man, I, I was totally, I got sucked into that. I went through my swing kid phase.

01:07:03.200 It was, it was so fun. Yeah. It was a lot of fun. I mean, it's a blast. And I mean, just the,

01:07:07.600 I have great memories of like, you know, like you said, getting the sweaty palms, wondering

01:07:11.420 if I should ask someone to dance. I mean, and the best moment was like, you dance into a really

01:07:17.560 fast, fun, safe song where you can kind of just like, you know, 16 candles at each other. And then

01:07:24.180 all of a sudden the music changes and it's a slow dance and it's, do you keep dancing? You know,

01:07:29.980 because you don't want to go ask a girl to dance as the slow dance is coming on. There's so much

01:07:34.560 messaging going on there, but if it transitions to a slow dance, it's like, bingo, this is the

01:07:39.680 perfect opportunity to like, take the dancing to the next level. These are such good lessons. I

01:07:45.480 remember, I think I was getting them when I was like 12 and 13 and 14. And, uh, man, I, I, I hope my

01:07:52.520 kids can figure out a way to get, to get dancing. Yeah. No, I've, I've kind of, I've made it one of my

01:07:57.880 goals. I want to make dancing awesome again. Like I want kids to, I think it's such a great

01:08:02.620 thing. Uh, so I'm going to, we got to figure out how we're going to do this. Can you make a hat

01:08:06.700 on AOM that says make dancing great again? Maybe we should start a cotillion. Um, I don't know.

01:08:12.820 I tried that. You know, I put my kid in cotillion when we were back in Virginia and, uh, you know,

01:08:18.680 that was another victim of COVID, but it was good while it lasted, but man, it, that's an uphill battle.

01:08:25.100 Or here's another rule. Don't spend too much money on a haircut. They don't last.

01:08:29.520 I think I disagree with this one, but do you, do you still abide by this one?

01:08:33.380 Yeah. But that's again, mostly because I've never figured out my haircut since I was a kid. I still

01:08:38.260 feel like every time I go into the barber, it's just a total lottery. It's just crap shoot. And so

01:08:43.980 why, why waste money on something that I know is going to be horrible, but you know, it's a little

01:08:51.420 bit haircuts and also just about everything that's temporary. I don't mind spending a little

01:08:56.500 money on something that's going to last, but maybe this is just kind of a warning shot about

01:09:01.040 vanity. Yeah. But I suppose as you get older or maybe you're in the, maybe you're in a professional

01:09:08.000 performer. It might be nice to lock down a perfect haircut, but then you, don't you really need,

01:09:14.260 I mean, like how often do you get your haircut if you know you exactly how you want it? Wouldn't you

01:09:19.180 have to get your haircut like every fourth day? Yeah. I don't. Yeah. So for me, I got the long

01:09:25.460 Sam Elliott thing going with my hair, but it took a while to find a barber that could do it right.

01:09:31.640 A lot of barbers just messed it up. So when it grew out, it was all poofy and messed up. And I found

01:09:36.600 that when I went with the cheap barber, they were always bad. And so investing in the barbers that are

01:09:41.880 a little more expensive, it made a big difference. That's been my experience.

01:09:45.400 I think that, I think you hit on the solution there, which is just go to the same guy or gal,

01:09:51.100 right? So if you get a good haircut, you just got to go back to the same person. The problem with a

01:09:55.640 cheap barber is that, you know, you go in there and it's like, oh no, Sal's not working. I got to work

01:10:00.000 with, you know, Nevio and he, he really likes the blow dryer. But I guess if you find the right

01:10:06.220 barber, stick with him, stick with him. Here's one that I like. Watch your language at the ball game.

01:10:11.680 Oh boy. Yeah. I'm not a big cusser. Are you a cusser? Do you curse? I can't imagine you're...

01:10:17.560 I'm not a cusser. And it's something I've noticed. It's not just at ball games,

01:10:20.160 just like anywhere in public, how language has degraded. Like everyone, just adults just let

01:10:25.180 off F-bombs, even when there's kids around. I just, I hate that.

01:10:29.480 I know. And like, you know, like, but I love watching like Curb Your Enthusiasm and just listen

01:10:35.280 to people. I love a good, creative, emphatic curse. I mean, they're great, but I've personally not

01:10:41.020 been a very good one. And I do hate it at the ballpark because I get cringy when I know there's

01:10:46.020 kids around and that might sound a little old fashioned, but my dad never, never cussed ever.

01:10:51.320 I don't know why he was not a particularly like self-righteous guy, but he did not cuss. And so if

01:10:58.140 we were at a ball game or something and guys are cussing in front of us, it used to really turn them

01:11:02.800 off. So that probably rubbed off on me. And, and you know, when you have kids, that's the worst thing,

01:11:06.740 right? Yeah. Save the cuss words for when you hit your thumb with a hammer. Right. Make it count.

01:11:12.460 Make it count. Right. Here's another rule. The younger generation seems less comfortable with.

01:11:17.560 Don't be shy in the locker room. They're all thinking the same thing.

01:11:22.320 My kids, they thought I was crazy when I was describing to them, like the, like big gang showers

01:11:28.760 in the boarding school I went to, or like in a locker room, you know, at the golf club or whatever.

01:11:34.880 Like the idea of like five guys showering in the same room was like shocking to them. But, um,

01:11:43.240 you know, I don't know. I think these, these kids have to realize that there's nothing wrong with a

01:11:49.160 little male nudity. I mean, I don't know what's going on that people are so shy. And in the old

01:11:54.500 days, like what happened to skinny dipping? Didn't Teddy Roosevelt like swim naked in the Potomac

01:11:59.020 every morning? Yeah, he did. Right. Right. So there was something manly about being nude. It was

01:12:04.200 not sexualized. Honestly, like, I think my kids look at me cross-eyed now because they just

01:12:08.760 associate nakedness with sex and perversion. And maybe that is a awful by-product of the

01:12:16.640 world they're growing up in that nudity is so closely associated with, you know, something dangerous

01:12:24.480 or something, geez, you know, something perverted. But I mean, when I was younger, I remember going to

01:12:33.080 like some tennis club and they had an indoor pool and the rule was, is you had to swim in the nude.

01:12:38.840 I don't know why that was a rule, but I think it was probably just like this throwback to old school,

01:12:44.720 like, Hey, we're all men here. And as a sign of mutual respect, we're all going to put each other

01:12:52.040 on equal footing. And what's more equal footing than just bearing all. I think there's something

01:12:57.960 kind of poetic about that, you know, it's very democratic. Are you, are you the old guy in the

01:13:03.520 locker room, you know, the country club locker room or the gym locker room? You just let it all

01:13:07.740 hang out and talking about the game. I don't know if I've graduated to that level, but I definitely

01:13:12.340 have memories of those old dudes who just wanted to talk to me all about school and my plans for the

01:13:17.600 future standing in front of me, just buck naked. But these were learning experiences. And probably the

01:13:24.200 greatest thing you learn is that we are all the same. We are all the same. There's nothing to be

01:13:29.920 ashamed about. My God, if we, if we keep everything a secret, what's it going to happen? We're just

01:13:34.080 myth building. Oh my God, there's no way I could be as good as he is. Come on. You need to pull the

01:13:40.300 curtain down if you will. All right. Here's another one. Have a signature dish, even if it's your only

01:13:44.700 one. By the way, I didn't think I would have such a strong opinion on male nudity, but yeah, you know,

01:13:50.080 yeah. What'd you say? What was the last one? Have a signature dish, even if it's your only one.

01:13:55.860 What's your signature dish? That's what I want to ask you. So lately I did a brisket for the first

01:14:00.740 time. Nice. Smoked with it. I think that's going to be my signature dish. Like on the green egg type

01:14:06.140 of thing? I got like a pellet smoker. Okay. And it worked out really great. The other one I do,

01:14:11.880 I do a prime rib at Christmas time. These are both very impressive. I'm pretty good at Thanksgiving

01:14:18.560 dinner. That's not hard, but I'm pretty good at Thanksgiving. I don't really have a signature

01:14:22.880 dish. I wish I did. I'm not a great cook. I am more or less the cook in the family, but that's

01:14:28.760 not saying much. I'm trying to get better. Let's see. When I was a single guy, I guess, I think my

01:14:35.500 signature dish was probably like just a little grilled salmon or something, but nothing fancy.

01:14:41.000 I'm trying bangers and mash. That's the new dish that I've been cooking lately that I love. And it's all

01:14:46.400 about me. I mean, grilling sausage and making mashed potatoes is nothing, but making the perfect

01:14:50.840 bangers and mash gravy is, is fun. Yeah. We have an article on the site written by Jeremy

01:14:57.780 Andenberg. He said, you have three signature dishes. You have a signature breakfast dish,

01:15:02.180 a main dish and a side dish. I think that's good advice. That's good.

01:15:06.340 I mean, because you got to feed yourself first of all, and you know, you got to treat yourself

01:15:12.560 right and, you know, make sure the kids know that dad can cook. My mom was the cook in my family and

01:15:19.160 thank God she taught me a few things or else I'd be getting takeout every day, which is awful.

01:15:24.700 Yeah. Some good ones. It's kind of quickly don't sabotage the family portraits. Smile,

01:15:28.680 please. I've had so many pictures ruined by my kids when they're little because they were

01:15:31.860 being goofy. Don't ruin it. Another one, attend lots of weddings. Your friends will be there and

01:15:37.200 the food is always good. I think that's, that's good advice too.

01:15:39.920 I can't wait. I can't wait till my friend's kids start getting married so I can go back on the

01:15:44.220 wedding circuit. It's like my favorite thing in the world to do.

01:15:46.980 Yeah. So my wife's advice on weddings, like she loves weddings too. They're a lot of fun,

01:15:51.620 but she thinks it's okay to turn down wedding invitations for people you're not close with

01:15:56.600 and your friends won't be there. I mean, how many, how many weddings are you getting invited to that

01:16:01.560 your friends aren't there? You know, it could be, you know, extended family, a work associate.

01:16:07.440 Oh, okay. And that sort of thing. Her rule of thumb for attending a wedding is generally

01:16:11.700 whether she would give the bride or groom a hug when she saw them. And if she wouldn't,

01:16:18.360 like you said, the relationship isn't really strong enough for me to go.

01:16:21.720 That's funny. I mean, I have been to weddings where I didn't know what, like you, the bride or

01:16:25.760 the groom. That's always a little awkward, but I think you could turn down destination weddings,

01:16:30.500 which probably shouldn't be a thing anyway.

01:16:32.440 But I would go to a stranger's wedding. I mean, you know, they're happening somewhere. It's a

01:16:39.320 great location. There's music, there's drinks, there's food. I mean, I could sit next to 10

01:16:45.140 strangers and have a blast at a wedding. So.

01:16:47.700 So we talked about a bunch of rules. Are there any rules that you would add

01:16:50.940 to the collection in the book since you wrote it?

01:16:54.240 I mean, probably a bunch of stuff about technology, right? Because so much has happened

01:16:58.120 about that. I, you know, probably not too many. I mean, I did write another book. Did you know

01:17:05.500 that? I wrote another book for my daughter. I wrote like a sequel.

01:17:07.940 Yeah, we have it.

01:17:08.420 Which was nice. And so I added some things that I thought were a little more appropriate for

01:17:12.400 young women. And some of those maybe had a little more to do with technology. And probably the one

01:17:17.900 big one is never post a picture online that you wouldn't show your mom or your boss or the dean

01:17:24.780 of admissions. That's a good rule of thumb.

01:17:26.840 That is a good rule of thumb.

01:17:28.340 And mostly I think the new rules would probably, I mean, now that I have teenagers, I would probably

01:17:32.240 always come back to just look up from your phones. Just call a buddy on the phone, build

01:17:37.800 relationships. I think I saw something on your website recently about social fitness.

01:17:43.240 Yeah.

01:17:44.220 Which is a really cool concept. I hadn't thought of it that way.

01:17:46.960 I work from home. And so sometimes I, and I, this year I actually signed up to work in

01:17:52.100 one of these co-working places because I realized my social fitness was really drastically falling.

01:17:59.800 And I was like, I need to be around people more to keep my practice up. And this is what

01:18:05.580 I think about for my kids too. And the biggest impediment to social fitness are the phones,

01:18:11.940 period, full stop.

01:18:12.940 Yeah. My wife and I, we've been really hitting on our kids. Like don't get on social media.

01:18:17.460 Like you don't need to be there. And if you're going to be there, there's certain things we say

01:18:21.620 you shouldn't do, like take selfies and also, you know, don't do those elaborate engagement posts.

01:18:26.980 Oh yeah. That's good.

01:18:27.940 And I'm telling, I'm telling my son guys, like, you know, when you're dating, you know,

01:18:31.780 some of the things you kind of got to figure out is like, ask your date when it's getting serious.

01:18:35.480 Like, what are your thoughts about gender reveal parties? And then if she says, oh,

01:18:40.560 I can't wait to do that and be like, yeah, you know, that might be a deal breaker.

01:18:44.180 Deal breaker. Yeah. I mean, another thing I think about all the time is honestly,

01:18:49.500 I think I would love to encourage my kids to, to maybe be a little more mischievous.

01:18:54.740 I know that seems weird coming from a guy that wrote this book of rules, but I mean,

01:19:00.980 my feeling about rules was always like, it's kind of like dressing up. Like if you're well-dressed,

01:19:05.500 you're kind of given more liberty to be funny, to be irreverent, you know, you're not. And I kind

01:19:11.460 of feel the same way now. It's like, you got to leave a little room in your life to be mischievous,

01:19:16.600 maybe to be a little less scheduled, you know, to be bored. My fear for my kids is so much of their

01:19:24.480 youth is being kind of professionalized and like overscheduled, whether it's youth sports or

01:19:31.220 whether it's like volunteering for the college application. And I'm seeing so much of that now

01:19:36.240 in high school. And, um, there was an article, man, I wish I remembered where I read it, but about,

01:19:42.180 maybe it was in the times yesterday about the loss of summer camps and summer jobs, you know,

01:19:49.120 and a lot of this is my fault too, because I get caught up in this idea of like maximizing your

01:19:55.280 kid, you know, kind of like optimizing, right. The pressure to succeed is so strong and to get

01:20:01.540 into college and all this stuff. And you forget that the real lessons are probably learned when

01:20:06.760 you're bored and you have to be resilient when you're working a summer job and you got to show

01:20:11.760 up and you got to mop the floor and all those life lessons are being learned in things that

01:20:15.880 our culture today doesn't really value anymore. You know, not a lot of kids are probably putting,

01:20:21.220 you know, summer camp on their college applications anymore, but just, that's a shame, you know,

01:20:25.740 that's a shame. So I, I do think that some of those more innocent pursuits that come out of

01:20:32.000 boredom, that come out of not being scheduled, they're so important. They're so important.

01:20:37.520 Yeah, I agree. Maybe the rule is be a kid, like enjoy being a kid.

01:20:41.400 Yeah. Yeah. And which probably reminds me, I need to go home and like cancel 10 activities.

01:20:45.880 for my kid, they're probably signed up for like seminars and, oh geez, things that are just

01:20:51.940 ridiculous. They probably don't need. Um, so if my kids end up listening to this, I'm going to walk

01:20:57.860 home to a bunch of eye rolling, which is totally in there, in there, they're right.

01:21:04.200 Well, Walker, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book

01:21:07.360 and your work?

01:21:08.820 The book is still available, if you can believe it on Amazon. So you can get Rules,

01:21:13.760 Rules for My Unborn Son on Amazon. You can also get the one for daughters called Rules for My

01:21:19.900 Daughter, a Rules for My Future Daughter. I don't even know that. Rules for My Daughter. I forget what

01:21:24.260 I named it, which is also lovely and cute and has a unique perspective because it is a dad talking to

01:21:30.220 a daughter, which, you know, has kind of a slightly different tone to it. And then, you know, I also do

01:21:36.480 all kinds of other stuff. I've got a couple of podcasts that I'm doing that have nothing to do with

01:21:39.940 parenting. They are true crime podcasts that are fun to watch. Another just way I kind of stretch

01:21:46.220 my writing muscles. One's called Anatomy of Murder. If you like true crime, it's a good one.

01:21:50.440 Listen to it. Another one's called Cold-Blooded. I'm really just a frustrated mystery writer at heart.

01:21:56.740 And so those are good fun.

01:21:58.680 Fantastic. Well, Walker Lamont, always a pleasure.

01:22:01.600 Man, it's so good to talk to you. It's like a walk down memory lane.

01:22:05.560 It was. I really enjoyed this. Thanks, Brett.

01:22:09.380 My guest today is Walker Lamont. He's the author of the book Rules for My Unborn Son. It's available

01:22:13.120 on Amazon.com. Go get yourself a copy if you don't have one. I've had my copy since 2009. I still take

01:22:18.460 it off the shelves every now and then to just flip through the pages. Think about my grandfather,

01:22:22.800 think about my dad. If you have a son, get him a copy. Let him browse through it. It's a great

01:22:27.920 conversation starter to talk about what are the guidelines you want your son to follow as he

01:22:33.040 matures into manhood. So get yourself a copy. And you can learn more information about Walker's

01:22:37.180 work at his website, walkerlamont.com. Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash 1000.

01:22:49.460 Well, that wraps up the 1000th episode of the Art of Manliness podcast. Thank you again for your

01:22:55.260 support of the show. Now onwards to episode 1001.

01:23:03.040 We'll see you next time.

The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

EPISODE #1,000! Rules for the Modern Man

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