The Art of Manliness - Episode #15： Man Stories with Kasper

00:00:00.000 This episode of the Art of Manly's podcast is brought to you by Huckberry. Huckberry is my

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00:00:32.000 code art15 to save 15% off your first purchase. Brett McKay here and welcome to another episode

00:00:54.040 of the Art of Manly's podcast. And this week we return to our series called Man Stories where

00:00:58.960 every other week we interview a different gentleman and ask him what it means to be a man.

00:01:03.600 And this week our guest is Casper. Casper, welcome to the show.

00:01:07.420 Thanks a lot, Brett. Pleasure to talk to you.

00:01:09.680 Yeah, thanks for taking the time to speak to us. Well, Casper, before we get started with the

00:01:13.360 questions, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself?

00:01:15.700 Yeah, sure. I'm 27 and I live and was born in London in the UK and spent seven years studying

00:01:24.680 art. So I'm almost like an art doctor now. And I graduated two and a half years ago and

00:01:29.960 also spent a long time, about eight years working in one of the biggest museums in London, like

00:01:35.540 all the time I'm studying and everything. So I'm still working there now. And I play a lot

00:01:39.500 of volleyball, coach a couple of beginner sessions of volleyball. So yeah, that's pretty much it.

00:01:44.880 Well, good deal. Well, are you ready to get started with the questions?

00:01:48.160 Yeah, sure.

00:01:49.200 Well, Casper, when do you feel like you became a man?

00:01:52.940 I don't know if it's happened yet. I think I'm still, I've got that default setting where

00:01:57.940 like if somebody asked me how old I was and I had to answer like straight away, then I'd

00:02:01.940 probably say 17 or 18. So I'm not really sure. And also, I used to work more on family events

00:02:07.820 in the museum, like just helping kids make samurai helmets out of sugar paper and card and stuff.

00:02:12.620 And it always felt a bit weird and wrong when their parents would say, oh, ask the man

00:02:16.520 for some glue or ask the man for something. You know, I didn't feel, you know, I didn't

00:02:20.200 realize they were talking about me. Occasionally when I have to take the lift up to the office

00:02:23.940 now because I work more in the office, there's a mirror in the back. And when I'm facing my

00:02:28.200 own reflection, I sort of confronted my own sort of, I don't know, seeing like a stubbly

00:02:34.180 face. I think stubble is the main signifier of the man for me. Although it still feels like

00:02:38.340 sort of wearing a mask, I still feel kind of, I don't know, probably permanently 17 or 18

00:02:42.320 on the inside. I'm just aging on the outside.

00:02:45.180 So what does manliness mean to you, Casper?

00:02:48.360 Okay. Well, I've been trying to think about it a lot lately. I sort of deal a lot with

00:02:52.380 it, a lot of my own artwork where I use sort of, in better commas, kind of stereotypically

00:02:56.880 manly source material. So lots of old books, sort of like 50s, 60s kind of Arctic science

00:03:03.020 and exploration and crossing the Antarctic and mountain climbing. And also, you know,

00:03:07.660 like Thoreau and Melville and just men with beards kind of stuff. And I want to try and

00:03:13.920 work out exactly what my fascination is with it because I don't want to be willfully nostalgic

00:03:18.140 or kind of chauvinistic like, I don't know, Jack Vettriano who paints all those women in

00:03:22.900 black dress and stockings and high heels and stuff. Like, I think there's something to it

00:03:26.800 that's, you know, that's sort of more interesting than just that sort of, I don't know, slightly

00:03:31.860 too retrospective thing. So I think in terms of my artwork, I think I'm always fascinated

00:03:38.760 by where masculinity or all these ideas of masculinity are slightly undermined. I really

00:03:45.100 love pictures I've got in books of, you know, kind of Greenland scientists. I've just got lots

00:03:49.840 of books of like Greenland scientists and it's just a very male environment. There are all these 0.98

00:03:54.480 men with beards. But because they're all there just in the huts, you know, in the middle

00:03:58.560 of the snow, it becomes a very domestic environment and it's quite sweet, you know, that they have

00:04:02.520 to kind of bake birthday cakes and do all these things. And I think a lot of manliness is about

00:04:07.300 that. It's not just a straightforward, you know, brute thing. It's where that complex

00:04:12.320 thing comes together. And I think men are generally quite ridiculous. So I think we have 1.00

00:04:16.960 to embrace that a bit more. And also in life, I think to contrast it just from my own

00:04:22.520 experience. Like my until recent girlfriend, like she was always sort of very anxious, but

00:04:27.320 she was very good at anticipating and planning ahead. And, you know, she had a very good memory,

00:04:32.160 whereas I've got a terrible episodic memory. I can't really remember what happened to me

00:04:37.420 or what happened last week. I can learn stuff. I'm not like completely, I don't know, dense,

00:04:41.780 but just I have no anticipation. So I just pretty much live in a constant moment. And I think

00:04:46.520 it might be a typical male thing, or I'm just speaking for myself, that, you know, I'm good

00:04:51.600 at living in the moment, which means I never worry. But it also means that I wouldn't really

00:04:54.520 get anything done if it was just down to me. So if it wasn't down to either my girlfriend

00:04:58.860 or my grandma, you know, I'll go on holiday with, you know, sort of once here, like suggesting

00:05:02.860 stuff, I would never think of going on holiday just because I never think past the next meal.

00:05:07.240 So I think manliness is sort of, or I think that's how men and women compliment each other.

00:05:11.640 It's like, we don't worry so much, but we just live in the moment and maybe help get stuff

00:05:16.220 done, or I don't know. Also, just one thing that sort of struck me today about this question

00:05:21.340 is there's a essay by John Berger called Ways of Seeing about like art and paintings. And

00:05:28.460 he says in paintings or traditionally like Renaissance paintings, men are defined by what

00:05:33.920 they can do, like their actions, whereas women are more defined by what they are. And 1.00

00:05:38.120 I think, you know, to a certain extent, that's sort of true in life, because I think we feel

00:05:44.160 like problem solvers and we feel like as long as we've got a job, we're okay. It kind of

00:05:47.800 stops us worrying about things, like as long as we can solve a problem. So, yeah.

00:05:52.520 Yeah, I think a lot of men have trouble just thinking about, you know, if they don't have

00:05:55.660 something to do. I mean, that's why unemployment with men is a lot more devastating than it

00:06:01.120 is on women. It's a lot harder on them because, yeah, if they don't have something to do, 1.00

00:06:05.380 they feel useless.

00:06:06.040 Yeah, and not just that, but I think sometimes we feel like we have to do stuff because there's

00:06:11.040 that scene in, what is it, White Men Can't Jump, where Rosie Perez says, you know, like,

00:06:15.720 sort of, I'm thirsty and when Woody Halton says we'll get a glass of water, she's like,

00:06:18.940 why do you do that? I don't want you to, like, fix my problem. And I thought that was just

00:06:22.340 a joke thing. I thought that was just like a cinematic kind of device, but it's actually

00:06:26.320 true. Like a girl, a friend of my girlfriend at work actually said that to me once, you know,

00:06:29.780 she was just complaining about something and I was trying to come up with suggestions.

00:06:32.300 And she's like, why do men always feel they have to do that? And I didn't realize that

00:06:36.020 it's an actual problem, so maybe we need to learn to empathize a bit more. But I think

00:06:40.420 we feel that, you know, if we're given a problem, our job is to try and solve it somehow.

00:06:46.200 Yeah. Well, Casper, what men, either living, dead, or even fictional, have influenced your

00:06:52.280 views of manliness?

00:06:53.840 I don't think I'm going to start with the real, sort of, although mostly dead, but some

00:06:59.880 real, I think my biggest male role models are probably both my grandfathers, because,

00:07:05.200 I mean, my biological father kind of left when I was quite young. So he's not been as

00:07:09.720 much of an influence, although he's not completely estranged because I see him occasionally,

00:07:13.320 but for a long time, for about eight to nine years, I didn't hear anything from him. So

00:07:16.120 he didn't really figure. And my stepdad didn't sort of come along until I was seven, which

00:07:21.020 is old enough that I didn't ever, like, feel like he was my dad. He was just a sort of

00:07:24.240 friend. So my two, and I'm an only child, sort of raised by my mother, who was a Polish

00:07:29.200 immigrant. So I didn't have any cousins or anything nearby. So my two biggest male role

00:07:33.720 models were my grandfathers. So I had one Polish grandfather, and he, like, when he worked

00:07:39.600 was a barrister. And, you know, he was just a very inspirational kind of character. He

00:07:45.420 was a poet, and he was quite sort of, you know, fun-loving, like, slightly stern, but

00:07:49.780 slightly sort of fun-loving as well. He really loved his grandchildren, and played a lot of

00:07:54.280 chess. He met my grandma playing chess, and he was also addicted to bridge. So, like,

00:07:58.800 you know, he actually snuck out of hospital in his dressing gown to catch a cab to bridge

00:08:03.680 games, and, you know, they took it, like, really seriously. But I really look up to him. He

00:08:07.940 was sort of quite suave, debonair, but just, like, really, you know, a nice character. And

00:08:12.800 also, my Latvian grandpa, my paternal grandfather, you know, he had to run away from Latvia when

00:08:19.160 he was 18, when the Russians invaded. And so he never saw his mother again after that.

00:08:23.660 And just as a refugee, he ended up in Wales, where he met my grandma. So he had, you know,

00:08:28.220 pretty much nothing. He was just a displaced person. But, you know, they moved to London,

00:08:31.580 and he did correspondence courses. And so he was very, like, self-made, and he ended up,

00:08:36.180 you know, being a, you know, quite high-up accountant, kind of management and accounting.

00:08:40.900 And, you know, so he had to teach himself a lot of things. And he had notebooks full of,

00:08:46.300 you know, just dates of monarchs and popes and things like that. And also, he was, you

00:08:52.860 know, quite a sort of connoisseur. He loved classical music and opera, and also, like, fine wine.

00:08:59.340 Like, for somebody that wasn't actually an alcoholic, he drank more sort of wine than anything,

00:09:03.340 you know, than anybody I know, because just, they loved traveling to Germany to the vineyards.

00:09:08.620 And he also played a lot of chess. So later in life, because he died, I mean, both my

00:09:14.760 grandfathers died quite close together. But, you know, a few years before he died, he had to have

00:09:20.380 a laryngectomy. They took out his voice box because he had throat cancer. So he couldn't talk. But I

00:09:24.900 think he was perfectly fine, because as long as he could just play chess by himself and listen to

00:09:29.240 music, he was quite happy. So I think they're two of my biggest role models. And also my stepdads.

00:09:34.440 Very cool. And he's quite a good male role model as well. He's from New Zealand. And he's the

00:09:40.660 eldest of 12 children, and pretty much grew up on a farm in New Zealand. A very different

00:09:44.840 story to me. Being an only child, I was quite mollycoddled by my mother. So I don't think

00:09:50.540 he resents it too much. But, you know, like, he had just a different environment where he

00:09:54.200 was the eldest of 12, and was pretty much going to school barefoot with a horse kind of thing.

00:09:59.520 Yeah. And then to go to, I don't know, fictional, or no, other people that aren't related to

00:10:05.540 me. I'm quite inspired by Herman Melville. Like, I just love his short stories, but also

00:10:09.660 just the story of, I don't know, it's quite tragic the way his fame never increased in

00:10:14.340 his lifetime. He just, you know, fell into more and more obscurity. But just the fact that

00:10:18.360 he kind of followed through and wrote poetry that nobody bought and did, you know, what he

00:10:25.340 felt he had to do. And he's been reading a lot of Charles Bukowski recently. So maybe

00:10:28.960 that's not too good an insult. I mean, I really love Post Office and the way he manages to

00:10:34.800 stay aloof from a job that he doesn't really enjoy. But he's never demeaned by it, because

00:10:39.640 he's always just sort of above that. So, and also, Henry David Thoreau, Thor Heyerdahl,

00:10:46.140 just love reading the Contiki Expedition. And also, just one last one, Yves Klein, the conceptual

00:10:52.820 artist, because he was also a judo instructor. And he made me realize it was okay to do sports,

00:10:58.880 like be a volleyball coach, and try and be an artist at the same time.

00:11:02.280 Very interesting. So, Casper, you mentioned your biological father wasn't a big part of

00:11:08.160 your life, but has he had an influence in your conception of manliness, or maybe your

00:11:12.220 stepfather?

00:11:14.460 Yeah, no, sort of. I mean, because I do sort of know him a bit better now. Like, my grandma

00:11:19.040 wants to see him a bit. He's basically lived for about 20 years in Kuwait. And then last

00:11:24.660 year, he was living in Dubai. And at the moment, he's living in Oman. So, I've traveled with

00:11:28.000 my grandma to Kuwait and Dubai and Oman. And so, I sort of know him, but don't really, like,

00:11:34.980 communicate that much. But I know he's liked it. It's quite depressing. Like, he's actually

00:11:38.520 got, we're almost vocal twins. Like, I've inherited the three stupid voices, which I hate. 1.00

00:11:43.420 I'm sorry if I'm, like, rambling a bit. But he's, I guess, like a negative role model. 1.00

00:11:49.260 And the thing is, he's not really a bad person. I mean, he's quite an okay person to go for

00:11:52.960 a drink with. But yeah, not really, like, a responsible person. So, he's quite a good

00:11:56.840 negative role model in that way.

00:11:59.160 Let's see. My stepdad, he's always been quite sort of quiet. Or he's not really stern, but

00:12:04.360 he's more of a sort of dry, you know, just dry person. Like, he doesn't say too much.

00:12:08.300 And I guess maybe that's a manly trait is that we sort of don't always just, like, share

00:12:13.780 our innermost emotions. We're just sort of quiet and, you know, sort of communicate what

00:12:17.900 we have to. And he always worked with aviation. Like, he had a pilot's license and worked

00:12:23.980 on navigation systems. So, we go quite a lot to, like, different airfares and steam railways

00:12:30.880 and things that you like. So, he's quite a handy kind of practical person also, you know,

00:12:35.140 having that sort of farm upbringing. He's a very handy person. So, I guess that's sort

00:12:40.200 of what my idea of manliness might be.

00:12:43.900 Okay.

00:12:44.320 Yeah. So, and also, also, both my grandfathers, like, I think, basically, men are, we're just

00:12:52.220 slightly ridiculous. So, everybody's got these flaws which make them more interesting or human. 0.78

00:12:57.240 So, yeah. So, I guess maybe it's either not sharing enough or being just slightly emotionally

00:13:02.100 repressed or, I don't know, slightly emotionally retarded. I think, basically, they're slightly 1.00

00:13:06.500 like big boys. And that's the mix that makes, that I've been thinking about in terms of manliness.

00:13:12.980 Hmm. And now, speaking of your stepfather, your father, your grandfather, is there something

00:13:18.640 that they can do that you can't do but you wish you could?

00:13:22.420 Yeah. I guess, like, with my stepdad, it's being more handy because, you know, just like

00:13:29.100 with plumbing or electricity or cars or things, like, I've got this arts education which means

00:13:35.660 I'm a bit handy. Like, I'm okay with tools and wood and paint and things generally. But mostly,

00:13:43.420 I feel a bit cack-handed or just, you know, like a sort of jack of all trades, master of none.

00:13:47.640 So, I wish I could actually be a bit more independent in terms of fixing stuff. And because

00:13:53.140 I'm an only, I'm an only grandchild, like, of my, my Welsh, my paternal grandma that lives

00:13:58.480 in London, you know, my, uh, my black bean grandpa was an only child and my, my dad was

00:14:03.920 an only child. So, and I'm an only child. So, we're the only two, like, relatives in this

00:14:08.040 country. So, I do a lot of shopping for her and I'm the only person that she's sort of guaranteed

00:14:13.080 to see regularly. So, I wish I could actually help her a bit more around the house. I mean, help,

00:14:17.060 you know, with what I can do in cleaning and stuff, but just, you know, not having to call

00:14:20.620 plumbers or electricians and stuff to fix us. So, I think that would be good. And the

00:14:25.240 other thing is just to play chess better because three of my four grandparents were, like, really

00:14:29.160 into chess and, uh, like, champions and things. And my cousin that's really close to me was

00:14:34.840 a junior chess champion. And I've always felt like a sort of family inadequacy, not being

00:14:39.040 able to play better.

00:14:40.280 All right. Well, Casper, what's the hardest thing you've ever done as a man, either emotionally,

00:14:44.440 physically, or otherwise?

00:14:47.440 Okay. I, I, I thought about this. I, I, I couldn't think of too many answers. I think

00:14:53.380 I've probably just had quite an easy life. So, so physically, like, I just can't think of

00:14:59.060 anything apart from a really painful thing. My life collapsed twice a few years ago. And

00:15:03.440 the worst thing is just having, like, these doctors root around in your, in your chest because

00:15:07.040 it really hurts. But, but then I had no choice. So, that wasn't a really hard thing to do.

00:15:11.100 Um, I guess emotionally, uh, it was sort of just breaking up with my girlfriend of six

00:15:16.100 years, uh, just before Christmas, just now. So, hence, I'm sort of living at my parents

00:15:21.340 at the moment or having for the last month. And it was, I don't know, I mean, it was completely

00:15:26.860 my mistake. And I, I sort of, uh, and I was too ashamed or embarrassed to like admit it

00:15:32.460 straight away. So, so I just sort of bottled everything up and then, and then I think I just

00:15:36.700 sort of, uh, panicked and broke up because I felt like it seemed like what was meant to

00:15:41.460 happen. And, but also it just sort of built up because for a long time I felt, you know,

00:15:47.440 I was holding her back or I wasn't, I don't think I was being completely selfish. I thought

00:15:50.760 I was holding her back as well. And, but, you know, she was a lot more disappointed and

00:15:54.440 frustrated with me generally than apparently she actually was. So it's probably, you know,

00:15:59.100 it's hard facing a fallacy and we'll see what happens. We just agreed not to talk for a

00:16:03.540 month and, you know, just to have a bit of space and everything. So we'll see what happens.

00:16:06.980 It was probably just a big, horrible mistake, but it's been quite tough. And also we mainly

00:16:11.060 have mutual friends. So, so I haven't just, I haven't seen anybody last month. It's quite

00:16:15.020 terrifying just spending so much time in your own head. And, uh, yeah, it's not, I think

00:16:20.420 just generally as men, if, if, I mean, I don't want to paint like such a negative picture

00:16:25.280 of manniness because I've said, like, I feel like we're slightly, I don't know, childlike

00:16:29.100 or kind of slightly emotionally repressed or, but I think that's our strength as well.

00:16:32.720 I think we have to sort of, uh, like admit that. And I think my, just one thing that

00:16:38.280 sort of not inspires me, but I have this like a fortune cookie kind of note that's

00:16:44.640 blue fact onto my computer at work that says the man who makes no mistakes does not usually

00:16:48.740 make anything else. And I think maybe that's, that's what we do. Like we sort of make mistakes,

00:16:53.700 but you know, we try and fix them and we try and learn through them. So, so maybe we're

00:16:58.940 the mistake makers, but yeah, so, so I don't want to end on a completely negative note. So

00:17:04.540 I was just going to say, but you know, on a more positive, constructive note, if I could

00:17:08.540 give one piece of advice to the men out there, it's just to be a bit more open and communicative

00:17:13.260 because I don't think like we're often, uh, honest enough about our feelings. And so just

00:17:19.680 when things build up, then it ends up causing a lot more hurt than it, than it needs to.

00:17:23.820 And when this every all happened like a month ago, I just felt like, uh, Lenny from as mice

00:17:28.340 and men, like I didn't mean to make everything go so horribly bad, but I did everything completely

00:17:34.260 the worst way. I just, you know, I felt like I was just, just killing everything I touched.

00:17:38.500 I didn't even mean to, I was just doing it through stupidity and neglect. So I think we 0.99

00:17:41.660 just need to be a bit more open just to stop things kind of barreling out of control and

00:17:46.480 just talk and share a bit more. Uh, and yeah, and be there for each other and talk to our

00:17:50.880 friends. Well, very good. Well, Casper, thank you for taking the time to speak with us today.

00:17:55.220 It's been a pleasure. Uh, thank you very much. You're welcome.

00:18:03.340 That wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,

00:18:08.000 make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And until next

00:18:13.440 week, stay manly.

00:18:16.480 Bye.

00:18:17.480 Bye.

00:18:46.480 Bye.

00:18:47.480 Bye.

00:19:16.480 Bye.

00:19:17.480 Bye.

00:19:46.480 Bye.

00:19:47.480 Bye.

00:20:16.480 Bye.

00:20:17.480 Bye.

00:20:46.480 Bye.

00:20:46.900 Bye.

00:20:47.480 Bye.

00:20:47.980 Bye.

00:20:48.480 Bye.

00:20:49.480 Bye.

The Art of Manliness - April 03, 2014

Episode #15： Man Stories with Kasper

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