Episode #15： Man Stories with Kasper
Episode Stats
Summary
In this episode of our series, "Man Stories," we interview a man to find out what it means to be a man. This week, we speak to artist Casper Casperson about what it's like being a man in the modern world.
Transcript
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This episode of the Art of Manly's podcast is brought to you by Huckberry. Huckberry is my
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code art15 to save 15% off your first purchase. Brett McKay here and welcome to another episode
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of the Art of Manly's podcast. And this week we return to our series called Man Stories where
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every other week we interview a different gentleman and ask him what it means to be a man.
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And this week our guest is Casper. Casper, welcome to the show.
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Yeah, thanks for taking the time to speak to us. Well, Casper, before we get started with the
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questions, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself?
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Yeah, sure. I'm 27 and I live and was born in London in the UK and spent seven years studying
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art. So I'm almost like an art doctor now. And I graduated two and a half years ago and
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also spent a long time, about eight years working in one of the biggest museums in London, like
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all the time I'm studying and everything. So I'm still working there now. And I play a lot
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of volleyball, coach a couple of beginner sessions of volleyball. So yeah, that's pretty much it.
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Well, good deal. Well, are you ready to get started with the questions?
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Well, Casper, when do you feel like you became a man?
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I don't know if it's happened yet. I think I'm still, I've got that default setting where
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like if somebody asked me how old I was and I had to answer like straight away, then I'd
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probably say 17 or 18. So I'm not really sure. And also, I used to work more on family events
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in the museum, like just helping kids make samurai helmets out of sugar paper and card and stuff.
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And it always felt a bit weird and wrong when their parents would say, oh, ask the man
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for some glue or ask the man for something. You know, I didn't feel, you know, I didn't
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realize they were talking about me. Occasionally when I have to take the lift up to the office
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now because I work more in the office, there's a mirror in the back. And when I'm facing my
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own reflection, I sort of confronted my own sort of, I don't know, seeing like a stubbly
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face. I think stubble is the main signifier of the man for me. Although it still feels like
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sort of wearing a mask, I still feel kind of, I don't know, probably permanently 17 or 18
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Okay. Well, I've been trying to think about it a lot lately. I sort of deal a lot with
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it, a lot of my own artwork where I use sort of, in better commas, kind of stereotypically
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manly source material. So lots of old books, sort of like 50s, 60s kind of Arctic science
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and exploration and crossing the Antarctic and mountain climbing. And also, you know,
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like Thoreau and Melville and just men with beards kind of stuff. And I want to try and
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work out exactly what my fascination is with it because I don't want to be willfully nostalgic
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or kind of chauvinistic like, I don't know, Jack Vettriano who paints all those women in
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black dress and stockings and high heels and stuff. Like, I think there's something to it
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that's, you know, that's sort of more interesting than just that sort of, I don't know, slightly
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too retrospective thing. So I think in terms of my artwork, I think I'm always fascinated
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by where masculinity or all these ideas of masculinity are slightly undermined. I really
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love pictures I've got in books of, you know, kind of Greenland scientists. I've just got lots
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of books of like Greenland scientists and it's just a very male environment. There are all these
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men with beards. But because they're all there just in the huts, you know, in the middle
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of the snow, it becomes a very domestic environment and it's quite sweet, you know, that they have
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to kind of bake birthday cakes and do all these things. And I think a lot of manliness is about
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that. It's not just a straightforward, you know, brute thing. It's where that complex
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thing comes together. And I think men are generally quite ridiculous. So I think we have
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to embrace that a bit more. And also in life, I think to contrast it just from my own
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experience. Like my until recent girlfriend, like she was always sort of very anxious, but
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she was very good at anticipating and planning ahead. And, you know, she had a very good memory,
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whereas I've got a terrible episodic memory. I can't really remember what happened to me
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or what happened last week. I can learn stuff. I'm not like completely, I don't know, dense,
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but just I have no anticipation. So I just pretty much live in a constant moment. And I think
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it might be a typical male thing, or I'm just speaking for myself, that, you know, I'm good
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at living in the moment, which means I never worry. But it also means that I wouldn't really
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get anything done if it was just down to me. So if it wasn't down to either my girlfriend
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or my grandma, you know, I'll go on holiday with, you know, sort of once here, like suggesting
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stuff, I would never think of going on holiday just because I never think past the next meal.
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So I think manliness is sort of, or I think that's how men and women compliment each other.
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It's like, we don't worry so much, but we just live in the moment and maybe help get stuff
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done, or I don't know. Also, just one thing that sort of struck me today about this question
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is there's a essay by John Berger called Ways of Seeing about like art and paintings. And
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he says in paintings or traditionally like Renaissance paintings, men are defined by what
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they can do, like their actions, whereas women are more defined by what they are. And
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I think, you know, to a certain extent, that's sort of true in life, because I think we feel
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like problem solvers and we feel like as long as we've got a job, we're okay. It kind of
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stops us worrying about things, like as long as we can solve a problem. So, yeah.
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Yeah, I think a lot of men have trouble just thinking about, you know, if they don't have
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something to do. I mean, that's why unemployment with men is a lot more devastating than it
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is on women. It's a lot harder on them because, yeah, if they don't have something to do,
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Yeah, and not just that, but I think sometimes we feel like we have to do stuff because there's
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that scene in, what is it, White Men Can't Jump, where Rosie Perez says, you know, like,
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sort of, I'm thirsty and when Woody Halton says we'll get a glass of water, she's like,
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why do you do that? I don't want you to, like, fix my problem. And I thought that was just
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a joke thing. I thought that was just like a cinematic kind of device, but it's actually
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true. Like a girl, a friend of my girlfriend at work actually said that to me once, you know,
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she was just complaining about something and I was trying to come up with suggestions.
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And she's like, why do men always feel they have to do that? And I didn't realize that
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it's an actual problem, so maybe we need to learn to empathize a bit more. But I think
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we feel that, you know, if we're given a problem, our job is to try and solve it somehow.
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Yeah. Well, Casper, what men, either living, dead, or even fictional, have influenced your
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I don't think I'm going to start with the real, sort of, although mostly dead, but some
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real, I think my biggest male role models are probably both my grandfathers, because,
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I mean, my biological father kind of left when I was quite young. So he's not been as
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much of an influence, although he's not completely estranged because I see him occasionally,
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but for a long time, for about eight to nine years, I didn't hear anything from him. So
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he didn't really figure. And my stepdad didn't sort of come along until I was seven, which
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is old enough that I didn't ever, like, feel like he was my dad. He was just a sort of
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friend. So my two, and I'm an only child, sort of raised by my mother, who was a Polish
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immigrant. So I didn't have any cousins or anything nearby. So my two biggest male role
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models were my grandfathers. So I had one Polish grandfather, and he, like, when he worked
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was a barrister. And, you know, he was just a very inspirational kind of character. He
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was a poet, and he was quite sort of, you know, fun-loving, like, slightly stern, but
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slightly sort of fun-loving as well. He really loved his grandchildren, and played a lot of
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chess. He met my grandma playing chess, and he was also addicted to bridge. So, like,
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you know, he actually snuck out of hospital in his dressing gown to catch a cab to bridge
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games, and, you know, they took it, like, really seriously. But I really look up to him. He
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was sort of quite suave, debonair, but just, like, really, you know, a nice character. And
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also, my Latvian grandpa, my paternal grandfather, you know, he had to run away from Latvia when
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he was 18, when the Russians invaded. And so he never saw his mother again after that.
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And just as a refugee, he ended up in Wales, where he met my grandma. So he had, you know,
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pretty much nothing. He was just a displaced person. But, you know, they moved to London,
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and he did correspondence courses. And so he was very, like, self-made, and he ended up,
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you know, being a, you know, quite high-up accountant, kind of management and accounting.
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And, you know, so he had to teach himself a lot of things. And he had notebooks full of,
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you know, just dates of monarchs and popes and things like that. And also, he was, you
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know, quite a sort of connoisseur. He loved classical music and opera, and also, like, fine wine.
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Like, for somebody that wasn't actually an alcoholic, he drank more sort of wine than anything,
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you know, than anybody I know, because just, they loved traveling to Germany to the vineyards.
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And he also played a lot of chess. So later in life, because he died, I mean, both my
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grandfathers died quite close together. But, you know, a few years before he died, he had to have
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a laryngectomy. They took out his voice box because he had throat cancer. So he couldn't talk. But I
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think he was perfectly fine, because as long as he could just play chess by himself and listen to
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music, he was quite happy. So I think they're two of my biggest role models. And also my stepdads.
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Very cool. And he's quite a good male role model as well. He's from New Zealand. And he's the
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eldest of 12 children, and pretty much grew up on a farm in New Zealand. A very different
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story to me. Being an only child, I was quite mollycoddled by my mother. So I don't think
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he resents it too much. But, you know, like, he had just a different environment where he
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was the eldest of 12, and was pretty much going to school barefoot with a horse kind of thing.
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Yeah. And then to go to, I don't know, fictional, or no, other people that aren't related to
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me. I'm quite inspired by Herman Melville. Like, I just love his short stories, but also
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just the story of, I don't know, it's quite tragic the way his fame never increased in
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his lifetime. He just, you know, fell into more and more obscurity. But just the fact that
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he kind of followed through and wrote poetry that nobody bought and did, you know, what he
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felt he had to do. And he's been reading a lot of Charles Bukowski recently. So maybe
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that's not too good an insult. I mean, I really love Post Office and the way he manages to
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stay aloof from a job that he doesn't really enjoy. But he's never demeaned by it, because
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he's always just sort of above that. So, and also, Henry David Thoreau, Thor Heyerdahl,
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just love reading the Contiki Expedition. And also, just one last one, Yves Klein, the conceptual
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artist, because he was also a judo instructor. And he made me realize it was okay to do sports,
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like be a volleyball coach, and try and be an artist at the same time.
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Very interesting. So, Casper, you mentioned your biological father wasn't a big part of
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your life, but has he had an influence in your conception of manliness, or maybe your
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Yeah, no, sort of. I mean, because I do sort of know him a bit better now. Like, my grandma
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wants to see him a bit. He's basically lived for about 20 years in Kuwait. And then last
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year, he was living in Dubai. And at the moment, he's living in Oman. So, I've traveled with
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my grandma to Kuwait and Dubai and Oman. And so, I sort of know him, but don't really, like,
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communicate that much. But I know he's liked it. It's quite depressing. Like, he's actually
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got, we're almost vocal twins. Like, I've inherited the three stupid voices, which I hate.
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I'm sorry if I'm, like, rambling a bit. But he's, I guess, like a negative role model.
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And the thing is, he's not really a bad person. I mean, he's quite an okay person to go for
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a drink with. But yeah, not really, like, a responsible person. So, he's quite a good
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Let's see. My stepdad, he's always been quite sort of quiet. Or he's not really stern, but
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he's more of a sort of dry, you know, just dry person. Like, he doesn't say too much.
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And I guess maybe that's a manly trait is that we sort of don't always just, like, share
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our innermost emotions. We're just sort of quiet and, you know, sort of communicate what
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we have to. And he always worked with aviation. Like, he had a pilot's license and worked
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on navigation systems. So, we go quite a lot to, like, different airfares and steam railways
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and things that you like. So, he's quite a handy kind of practical person also, you know,
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having that sort of farm upbringing. He's a very handy person. So, I guess that's sort
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Yeah. So, and also, also, both my grandfathers, like, I think, basically, men are, we're just
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slightly ridiculous. So, everybody's got these flaws which make them more interesting or human.
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So, yeah. So, I guess maybe it's either not sharing enough or being just slightly emotionally
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repressed or, I don't know, slightly emotionally retarded. I think, basically, they're slightly
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like big boys. And that's the mix that makes, that I've been thinking about in terms of manliness.
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Hmm. And now, speaking of your stepfather, your father, your grandfather, is there something
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that they can do that you can't do but you wish you could?
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Yeah. I guess, like, with my stepdad, it's being more handy because, you know, just like
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with plumbing or electricity or cars or things, like, I've got this arts education which means
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I'm a bit handy. Like, I'm okay with tools and wood and paint and things generally. But mostly,
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I feel a bit cack-handed or just, you know, like a sort of jack of all trades, master of none.
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So, I wish I could actually be a bit more independent in terms of fixing stuff. And because
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I'm an only, I'm an only grandchild, like, of my, my Welsh, my paternal grandma that lives
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in London, you know, my, uh, my black bean grandpa was an only child and my, my dad was
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an only child. So, and I'm an only child. So, we're the only two, like, relatives in this
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country. So, I do a lot of shopping for her and I'm the only person that she's sort of guaranteed
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to see regularly. So, I wish I could actually help her a bit more around the house. I mean, help,
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you know, with what I can do in cleaning and stuff, but just, you know, not having to call
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plumbers or electricians and stuff to fix us. So, I think that would be good. And the
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other thing is just to play chess better because three of my four grandparents were, like, really
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into chess and, uh, like, champions and things. And my cousin that's really close to me was
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a junior chess champion. And I've always felt like a sort of family inadequacy, not being
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All right. Well, Casper, what's the hardest thing you've ever done as a man, either emotionally,
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Okay. I, I, I thought about this. I, I, I couldn't think of too many answers. I think
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I've probably just had quite an easy life. So, so physically, like, I just can't think of
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anything apart from a really painful thing. My life collapsed twice a few years ago. And
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the worst thing is just having, like, these doctors root around in your, in your chest because
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it really hurts. But, but then I had no choice. So, that wasn't a really hard thing to do.
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Um, I guess emotionally, uh, it was sort of just breaking up with my girlfriend of six
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years, uh, just before Christmas, just now. So, hence, I'm sort of living at my parents
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at the moment or having for the last month. And it was, I don't know, I mean, it was completely
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my mistake. And I, I sort of, uh, and I was too ashamed or embarrassed to like admit it
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straight away. So, so I just sort of bottled everything up and then, and then I think I just
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sort of, uh, panicked and broke up because I felt like it seemed like what was meant to
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happen. And, but also it just sort of built up because for a long time I felt, you know,
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I was holding her back or I wasn't, I don't think I was being completely selfish. I thought
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I was holding her back as well. And, but, you know, she was a lot more disappointed and
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frustrated with me generally than apparently she actually was. So it's probably, you know,
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it's hard facing a fallacy and we'll see what happens. We just agreed not to talk for a
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month and, you know, just to have a bit of space and everything. So we'll see what happens.
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It was probably just a big, horrible mistake, but it's been quite tough. And also we mainly
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have mutual friends. So, so I haven't just, I haven't seen anybody last month. It's quite
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terrifying just spending so much time in your own head. And, uh, yeah, it's not, I think
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just generally as men, if, if, I mean, I don't want to paint like such a negative picture
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of manniness because I've said, like, I feel like we're slightly, I don't know, childlike
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or kind of slightly emotionally repressed or, but I think that's our strength as well.
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I think we have to sort of, uh, like admit that. And I think my, just one thing that
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sort of not inspires me, but I have this like a fortune cookie kind of note that's
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blue fact onto my computer at work that says the man who makes no mistakes does not usually
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make anything else. And I think maybe that's, that's what we do. Like we sort of make mistakes,
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but you know, we try and fix them and we try and learn through them. So, so maybe we're
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the mistake makers, but yeah, so, so I don't want to end on a completely negative note. So
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I was just going to say, but you know, on a more positive, constructive note, if I could
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give one piece of advice to the men out there, it's just to be a bit more open and communicative
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because I don't think like we're often, uh, honest enough about our feelings. And so just
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when things build up, then it ends up causing a lot more hurt than it, than it needs to.
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And when this every all happened like a month ago, I just felt like, uh, Lenny from as mice
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and men, like I didn't mean to make everything go so horribly bad, but I did everything completely
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the worst way. I just, you know, I felt like I was just, just killing everything I touched.
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I didn't even mean to, I was just doing it through stupidity and neglect. So I think we
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just need to be a bit more open just to stop things kind of barreling out of control and
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just talk and share a bit more. Uh, and yeah, and be there for each other and talk to our
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friends. Well, very good. Well, Casper, thank you for taking the time to speak with us today.
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It's been a pleasure. Uh, thank you very much. You're welcome.
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That wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,
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make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And until next