The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025


Episode #25： The Art of Non-Conformity with Chris Guillebeau


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another episode of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:00:21.120 Well, as boys, we probably all had dreams of living extraordinary lives.
00:00:25.140 Perhaps you dreamed of owning a cabin in the mountains and taking tourists on guided fly-fishing excursions.
00:00:30.840 Or maybe your dream was to travel the world with your steamer trunk and haggling with merchants at a bazaar in Istanbul.
00:00:37.140 But if you're like most men, you probably gave up on those dreams thinking they were just childish fantasies
00:00:41.820 and then you had to join the real world by getting a job, settling down, and paying bills.
00:00:47.080 Sure, you might have a decent life, but it feels so ordinary, so conventional.
00:00:50.860 And there's still a part of you that yearns to fulfill the boyhood dream and you would give anything to make it a reality.
00:00:57.780 Well, our guest today is a man who decided not to live a conventional life and he helps others live the life they always wanted.
00:01:04.460 His name is Chris Guillebeau and is the owner of the blog The Art of Nonconformity,
00:01:08.580 where he writes about challenging the status quo and living a non-conventional life.
00:01:12.840 In addition to writing, Chris spends his time traveling the world and he has a goal of visiting every country in the world
00:01:18.540 and so far he's visited 141 of them.
00:01:21.700 Chris's work has been featured in the New York Times, Washington Post, MSNBC, and Anderson Cooper 360,
00:01:27.540 and Chris will be publishing a book based on his blog this fall called The Art of Nonconformity.
00:01:32.700 Chris, welcome to the show.
00:01:34.880 Thanks for having me. That was a great introduction.
00:01:37.540 Well, I wanted to introduce you well and do it well.
00:01:40.860 So, Chris, what inspired you to ditch the typical life plan for men that's usually, you know, college, job, marriage, mortgage,
00:01:49.280 and embark on a lifestyle with more freedom?
00:01:53.180 Well, I think there were a number of turning points.
00:01:56.240 I actually had the fairly typical plan of college and marriage, and I got married pretty young.
00:02:02.140 I'm still married, and I did go to college.
00:02:04.440 But I think probably one of the big turning points was 9-11, which really affected me just like it affected many men and women all over the world.
00:02:12.660 So I think when that happened, I was about 21, 22, and that experience just, you know, it depressed me for several months like it did for a lot of people
00:02:21.100 and kind of helped me to ask, you know, questions about my own life of, like, what am I really doing?
00:02:26.240 Like, I used to have these dreams of traveling and always thought that I would do something, you know, overseas to help people or, you know,
00:02:34.140 to kind of connect my life with others or whatever, and I wasn't really doing that.
00:02:37.420 Like, I had been working for myself, and I started a business, and that was fun, but I still thought it was kind of, you know,
00:02:43.080 small compared to, like, the needs of the world and everything.
00:02:45.660 So I was just really tripped out by that and ended up going with my wife and moving to West Africa.
00:02:51.360 And that was in 2002, and we heard about a volunteer opportunity to go and be a part of this medical mission
00:02:58.380 that was working in Sierra Leone in Liberia.
00:03:01.280 And so we made a two-year commitment to that, and then it turned into kind of a four-year commitment,
00:03:05.900 just living in the region and, you know, facilitating the process of helping these nations kind of recover from a civil war.
00:03:13.560 So that was, like, a very, very intense emotional experience, you know, over four years, the four-year volunteer commitment.
00:03:19.880 So that was probably one of the biggest things, like, you know, actually, like, being depressed after 9-11
00:03:24.840 and then finding a way to kind of respond and reach out and go and be a part of something that was bigger than me.
00:03:30.560 So that was something that was really good.
00:03:31.820 And then, you know, 2002 to 2006, we were overseas and then came back to the States, relocated to Seattle,
00:03:37.760 and I did grad school at the University of Washington.
00:03:40.320 And while I was at grad school, I started another business and was doing some business consulting and different stuff,
00:03:45.640 and I felt like I wanted to kind of transition to where I had done a lot of stuff.
00:03:50.560 I had helped people on an individual basis with my business consulting and my volunteer work and stuff,
00:03:55.120 but I wanted to kind of, like, move to a broader basis and, like, do something bigger.
00:03:59.100 And so that's when, just a couple of years ago, I kind of started the writing career and started the blog
00:04:02.940 and started working on the book.
00:04:04.460 So those are a few things that kind of led up to where I am now.
00:04:08.160 So it was the 9-11 and the trip.
00:04:11.560 And so I guess after the trip to Ethiopia, you were kind of in this mode where you're like,
00:04:16.120 this is what I want to do for the rest of my life, not have the conventional life
00:04:18.960 and live my life according to how I want to do it.
00:04:23.740 Yeah, I would say definitely.
00:04:25.360 And then also just the experience of being self-employed for a while
00:04:27.980 and then just the broader worldview that came about through travel.
00:04:33.060 Definitely the broader worldview of living in Africa,
00:04:34.920 but then I'd also traveled throughout a lot of countries in Europe
00:04:38.980 and then southern Africa as well and a bit in Asia.
00:04:42.160 So I guess, like, the more I did, the more I wanted to do more.
00:04:45.780 I guess, like, once you have a taste of something, then you kind of see,
00:04:48.200 oh, there's a bigger world out there and, you know,
00:04:50.500 I don't have to do things the same way that other generations have done
00:04:54.960 or even some of my friends are doing.
00:04:56.220 I can kind of, you know, make it up as I go.
00:04:58.260 So it's definitely been more of a process than, like, a single thing.
00:05:01.380 Yeah.
00:05:01.460 So part of your kind of lifestyle you've chosen to live is to travel a lot.
00:05:05.480 And, you know, you have the goal of reaching every,
00:05:07.720 visiting every country in the world.
00:05:08.900 And so far you've visited 141 of them.
00:05:13.160 When do you plan on visiting them all?
00:05:15.260 I mean, do you have a goal for that?
00:05:17.180 Yeah, this kind of started, like, right around the time
00:05:20.160 when I came back from Africa and went to Seattle.
00:05:22.900 I had a lot of school breaks just with the cycle of grad school.
00:05:27.360 And so I started doing, like, these two-week trips just by myself going off.
00:05:31.660 And by that point, I had traveled a lot in West Africa,
00:05:33.860 so I was pretty comfortable, you know, in difficult countries or poorer countries.
00:05:38.080 And so I went to Uganda.
00:05:40.040 I went to Iraq.
00:05:40.940 I went to Burma.
00:05:41.940 Just kind of crazy little out-of-the-way places like that.
00:05:44.560 And I guess after I had done this a little while,
00:05:47.360 I started counting up the number of places I had been to just non-strategically.
00:05:51.180 You know, I just was going all over the place.
00:05:53.240 And so I realized I'd been to, like, maybe between 50 and 100 countries.
00:05:56.660 And I thought, well, let's set a goal of visiting 100 countries.
00:05:59.700 Like, that would be fun.
00:06:01.160 And so I kind of, like, worked out how much that would cost.
00:06:03.900 My first thing is, like, oh, how can I do that?
00:06:05.700 And how, you know, how much money is that going to cost?
00:06:08.320 And I realized, like, having been to about 50 countries,
00:06:11.460 it would cost me about $30,000 or so to go to the next 50.
00:06:15.460 And my first thought was, like, wow, that's $30,000.
00:06:18.580 You know, of course, on the one hand, it's a lot of money.
00:06:20.540 But on the other hand, it's actually not as much as I would expect to do that
00:06:23.620 over a number of years and to really set this as a personal goal
00:06:27.380 and to make sacrifices in other areas, you know, so that I can focus on that.
00:06:32.240 So I did that.
00:06:33.300 And then as I got closer to 100, then I started thinking, like, oh, what's next?
00:06:36.300 You know, like, I was turning 30 years old, and I was like, okay,
00:06:39.620 I've got almost 100 countries.
00:06:40.800 This is great.
00:06:41.700 But, you know, why not go to every country in the world?
00:06:44.320 So that's how that came about, which is a little bit more difficult
00:06:46.960 because with just 100, you can kind of pick and choose, you know,
00:06:50.560 and you can go to some of the easier countries or whatever.
00:06:52.640 But, you know, to go to every country, you can't just, you know,
00:06:56.840 put something off the list because you don't want to go there or whatever.
00:06:58.920 So, yeah, as you said, 141 so far.
00:07:02.480 My goal is to do it before my 35th birthday, which is coming up in about three years.
00:07:07.000 So I'm down to about two and a half years left to get to the final 50.
00:07:12.860 Awesome.
00:07:13.500 And so when you go, when you travel, what exactly do you do?
00:07:16.700 Are you just seeing the sites or do you do volunteer work when you're there?
00:07:20.840 I mean, how do you fill the time when you're visiting these countries?
00:07:24.520 Yeah, I'm not doing a whole lot of volunteer work, at least not overseas right now.
00:07:28.580 That's difficult to do when you're just going somewhere for a briefer period of time.
00:07:32.380 But I am continuing my work.
00:07:34.280 Like now that I work as a writer, that continues, you know, wherever I am in the world
00:07:37.520 and doing the blog and connecting.
00:07:39.740 And I have a small business that kind of works with the blog where I sell information products.
00:07:44.720 So I do that basically everywhere I go.
00:07:46.080 So everywhere I am, you know, I'm always working.
00:07:48.280 I usually work a few hours a day and then I go out.
00:07:50.480 Like if I'm somewhere for a few days, I might work in the morning and then go out in the afternoon.
00:07:54.900 And one thing that's really interesting that's kind of changed a bit over the past couple of years
00:07:58.100 is I'm naturally a pretty shy, introverted person.
00:08:01.100 But now that I have this blog, like I've got readers all over the world.
00:08:05.360 And so I've learned that I actually don't have to prepare very much at all.
00:08:08.080 If I'm going somewhere, like I'm probably going to know at least somebody, usually, you know,
00:08:12.060 a group of people in that place.
00:08:14.040 And so I've been doing meetups in the different countries I'm going to.
00:08:16.860 And like some local people will come and meet me and then take me around and show me,
00:08:20.660 you know, whatever they want me to see or whatever, which is really quite fun
00:08:22.880 because I can see stuff that I wouldn't ordinarily, you know, be able to see
00:08:26.440 or I might have to plan more.
00:08:28.040 But now I don't even need a guidebook, you know, I just show up and there are people there to take me around.
00:08:32.720 So that's fun.
00:08:33.560 Yeah, that's awesome.
00:08:34.420 So you mentioned a little bit about the price of traveling the world.
00:08:38.920 You know, I know there's a lot of men who would love to travel more,
00:08:41.680 but they don't because they just don't think they have the money.
00:08:44.460 I mean, is it pretty affordable to travel like you do?
00:08:49.180 Sure.
00:08:49.600 I think there's a few things we could say about this.
00:08:52.120 And we could talk about this probably for an entire podcast.
00:08:54.440 But I'll try to be concise and say a couple of things.
00:08:58.160 The first thing is, like, whenever I think about spending money, whether it's for travel or for anything else,
00:09:03.660 like, I always try to think about priorities and values.
00:09:07.920 These are very personal things.
00:09:09.260 Like, my priorities and values won't be the same as anyone else's.
00:09:12.440 But I always try to, you know, be very conscious about, you know, what I'm choosing to spend my money on.
00:09:17.920 In some ways, I'm very frugal, perhaps even to a fault in some ways.
00:09:22.500 But I've been really careful to avoid debt.
00:09:26.480 I don't own a car right now.
00:09:28.060 Like, we've been living back in the States for three years, and we don't own a car.
00:09:30.720 We just take the bus to different places.
00:09:33.320 We've chosen to rent a home rather than own a home, which I know is not the right thing for everybody.
00:09:37.840 But for us, it makes sense.
00:09:39.740 So I guess the first thing is, like, I've just kind of chosen to really identify this goal as something that's important to me,
00:09:46.060 and that's what I'm willing to invest in, and that's what I put a lot of disposable income into.
00:09:51.420 But then secondly, because I've been doing this for a while, like, I've learned quite a bit, usually through trial and error, a lot of error.
00:09:58.520 But now I do this thing that I call travel hacking, which is kind of like life hacking or, you know, hacking different things on your MacBook or Gmail or whatever.
00:10:07.260 And so now I've kind of learned to travel quite affordably.
00:10:11.240 And my average plane ticket cost now is about $300 to $400, and that includes, like, lots of long-haul flights to Hong Kong or to Johannesburg or wherever.
00:10:20.720 I do a lot of round-the-world tickets.
00:10:23.220 I do a lot of stuff with frequent flyer miles.
00:10:25.600 I think right now I have about 800,000 frequent flyer miles that I'm, like, constantly cycling,
00:10:29.860 and I'm, like, every year I'm getting a few hundred thousand more from different promotions and things,
00:10:33.900 and I'm using a few hundred thousand, you know, to go on all these trips.
00:10:37.700 So I actually do it quite affordably.
00:10:40.360 And for someone who's not trying to do what I'm doing, which I assume is almost everyone,
00:10:44.640 if someone just wants to travel a little bit, they're not trying to go to Iraq or, you know, wherever,
00:10:49.720 then it's actually much easier.
00:10:51.380 Because now, actually, it's getting a little bit more expensive for me because I'm getting down to these final countries that I have to get to.
00:10:56.680 But if I just wanted to go to Thailand or Australia or, you know, somewhere,
00:11:00.260 then I don't think that's too difficult at all.
00:11:03.060 So, again, first of all, with the mindset of priorities and, like, we're going to save up for this because it's important to us.
00:11:09.080 But then secondly, with, like, thinking about the creative approach of different ways to do it with miles,
00:11:14.120 with award tickets, around-the-world tickets, you know, or whatever.
00:11:17.280 So I do a lot of stuff about that.
00:11:18.600 So instead of buying the new excursion, you put the money into an account to go traveling, is what?
00:11:25.620 Yeah, yeah, I do.
00:11:26.500 I have a separate savings account that I use just for my travel stuff.
00:11:29.660 And that's really made my life a lot easier just to kind of have it there and not think too much about it.
00:11:34.080 And you share some of these kind of travel things you've learned in the information products you sell on your site.
00:11:39.280 Is that correct?
00:11:40.740 I do.
00:11:41.320 I do.
00:11:41.600 I mean, I also share some of it just on the blog.
00:11:43.780 And I'm happy to help people for free.
00:11:45.920 I don't even have any paid consulting.
00:11:47.420 If someone has a specific question, I'm more than happy to help with that.
00:11:50.560 But then, yes, I do have, like, a Frequent Firemaster product that kind of goes into it in much more detail
00:11:55.060 and talks about, you know, how all the different promotions work and how the airline alliances work
00:12:00.400 and how you can kind of get some of these deals.
00:12:03.480 So, Chris, your blog and the different products you sell are all geared towards helping people live unconventional lives.
00:12:11.140 What do you think is the number one thing that holds men back from living the life they want?
00:12:15.300 That is a really good question.
00:12:18.580 And I can only speak for myself about this.
00:12:20.860 So I would say for myself, I would say that the number one thing that held me back for a long time was my own fear and my own insecurity.
00:12:29.060 I guess, you know, I think, let's see how to put this.
00:12:33.840 A lot of us live our lives kind of out of the desire for approval or out of, like, the fear of what other people think of us.
00:12:40.600 And I know that's certainly true in my life for a long time.
00:12:43.540 It probably is still true in many ways.
00:12:45.080 But I think I just kind of learned, you know, over time to overcome that, not really to get past the fear,
00:12:52.120 but just to find a way, like, to work with it or whatever.
00:12:54.920 I mean, I wish, you know, the experiences that I'm having now with the site and the travel and stuff,
00:12:59.240 I'm having so much fun.
00:13:00.480 I wish I had started them earlier.
00:13:01.920 Like, I had been thinking for five years about starting a blog.
00:13:04.360 And, you know, I finally just went and did it.
00:13:07.780 But I think for a couple of years, you know, the main reason why I didn't,
00:13:11.140 didn't have anything to do with anything practical or with money or with anything else in my life,
00:13:16.440 but just kind of with fear and, you know, insecurity and, oh, what are people going to think about me and that kind of thing.
00:13:22.420 So for me, that would be my answer.
00:13:24.480 And going on that, talking about kind of the fear of what other people think,
00:13:28.480 I think a lot of men do things because, and a lot of people,
00:13:32.820 but I think particularly men do things because it's expected of them.
00:13:36.140 I think with men, they often, like, tie it up with kind of their masculinities.
00:13:39.600 Like, I need to do this.
00:13:40.840 If I don't do this, then I'm not a man, right?
00:13:43.260 If I don't have the secure job.
00:13:46.300 What do you think about that?
00:13:47.840 I mean, what do you think, what should a man do?
00:13:50.660 How do you deal with that pressure of dealing with kind of those social expectations
00:13:54.960 and explaining to mom and dad or your mentor that, you know,
00:13:59.500 I'm not, sorry, I'm not going to be an attorney at a high-powered firm.
00:14:02.980 I actually want to teach kids how to sculpt with clay.
00:14:07.260 You know, how do you, how do you, how do you,
00:14:08.880 what advice would you give to a man to kind of deal with that pressure?
00:14:12.080 We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.
00:14:15.260 And now back to the show.
00:14:16.960 Right, right.
00:14:17.520 Well, first of all, I think you're right.
00:14:18.740 I agree with that premise.
00:14:19.740 I think that a lot of us probably, specifically men, do feel that pressure.
00:14:25.560 I guess, let's see, I'd say a couple of things.
00:14:27.660 The first thing is, you know, we really do need to, if we're going to, like, you know,
00:14:32.520 come into our own identity as men, I think we have to figure out, first of all, like,
00:14:35.960 what are we all about?
00:14:37.420 What are we most interested in?
00:14:39.400 What makes us happy?
00:14:40.740 You know, answering all those personal questions, which I do think,
00:14:43.420 even though they're kind of like introspective, I think are quite important.
00:14:46.100 And then secondly, trying to find the link or the bridge between, you know,
00:14:50.260 those personal things and, you know, how our lives are connected with other people.
00:14:55.140 So, in other words, what's it really all about and how are we going to change the world
00:14:59.000 and, you know, how are we going to combine our own dreams and stuff with something that's
00:15:03.680 going to benefit other people?
00:15:04.820 And I think, you know, I think once we begin striving towards those things, I think obviously
00:15:09.660 we're going to come up against, you know, different expectations or assumptions or pressure.
00:15:15.400 I guess I would say, for my case, it's gotten easier.
00:15:18.680 The more that I've been, like, the more small, like, I started taking small steps and then,
00:15:23.280 you know, things got easier.
00:15:24.200 I remember when I first started traveling, you know, like, my parents were freaked out
00:15:27.900 and they would call and they would hear that I'm in Hong Kong or something and they would,
00:15:32.180 you know, be worried or whatever.
00:15:33.780 And then this was, like, a few years ago.
00:15:35.280 And now it's like they don't even know what continent I'm on.
00:15:37.440 You know, like, they just email me.
00:15:38.940 They're like, we don't know where you are, Chris, but, you know, let us know if anything.
00:15:42.140 So things do get easier.
00:15:43.540 And I think at some point you just have to take the leap.
00:15:48.060 And I know it's not easy, but nothing worth doing is never really easy, you know?
00:15:52.800 Yeah, definitely.
00:15:54.360 Now, Chris, you run several small businesses.
00:15:57.580 You write and you do these things to kind of fund your flexible lifestyle that you have.
00:16:03.680 What advice would you give, kind of just basic advice, would you give to a man, you know,
00:16:07.260 if he's working the nine-to-five job but would eventually like to do what you're doing,
00:16:10.860 kind of have the flexibility to travel or do whatever?
00:16:13.600 Does it have to be done through a blog or can you create a small business doing something else that he's passionate about?
00:16:21.300 I think it's actually a lot easier to create a small business doing something else without a blog
00:16:26.120 or maybe by, you know, using the blog to support something else as opposed to, you know,
00:16:31.320 starting a blog with a primary goal of creating a new career.
00:16:34.940 I think actually, like, it's much easier to look at something that you're passionate about,
00:16:40.780 but not only that you're passionate about, but other people are also passionate about and willing to spend money on.
00:16:46.240 I think that's the key point that I try to address in a lot of the small business stuff that I do
00:16:50.380 is to really, like, look for the convergence between what you're really excited about, your passion,
00:16:56.160 and what other people are also excited about and interested in,
00:16:59.640 which I think is something that the Art of Manliness community has done really well, right,
00:17:02.580 because it's something that you have this interest in, and then, you know,
00:17:05.380 there's a whole community of people also interested in the same thing.
00:17:08.120 So that's kind of a common mistake people make when they talk about, like, following your passion,
00:17:13.720 and you have to – it has to be your passion, but it has to be somebody else's passion as well.
00:17:18.760 So I always encourage people, like, to look for that convergence.
00:17:21.260 And if you're working 9 to 5, in some ways that's easier than if you're not,
00:17:25.960 because then you, like, you can't mess around, basically, if you don't have unlimited time,
00:17:30.740 so what you do has to count.
00:17:32.660 And, you know, you can totally start anything on the side.
00:17:36.020 Most businesses are not started, like, with venture capital, with, you know,
00:17:39.820 a team of 10 people who are going to work full-time.
00:17:42.100 You know, most businesses are started just, you know, the way you started out of manliness
00:17:45.580 or how I started unconventionalguides.com or whatever.
00:17:48.560 You know, you can start small and then see how people respond and, you know, go from there.
00:17:53.380 So, yeah, so it's don't – I guess, moonlight first and then kind of test the waters out
00:17:58.640 and then, as it grows, go into it full-time?
00:18:02.000 Yeah, well, I think everyone's situation is different.
00:18:04.160 And I don't have to counsel people, like, you know, to quit their job without anything there or whatever.
00:18:10.920 I mean, I think we all have a desire for security, and I think that's totally fine.
00:18:15.940 I mean, I just like to kind of redefine security and look at what security really is.
00:18:21.780 You know, is security a 9-to-5 job or is security your own competence?
00:18:25.720 You know, security – you know, if your own competence is a security, then you can do that in a job
00:18:30.120 or you can do that in yourself.
00:18:31.120 It may be a different fit at different times in your life, and, you know, there may be some times you go back and forth,
00:18:36.520 and all of that's totally fine, but I just think it's good to kind of – let's look at what we're, you know,
00:18:42.520 what we're really all about and what we're doing.
00:18:44.340 Yeah.
00:18:45.680 So what about men who are, you know, who actually enjoy working the traditional 9-to-5 job?
00:18:50.180 You know, they like to clock in at 8 o'clock and then leave at 5.30 or whatever.
00:18:54.400 Can they still live an unconventional life or an art of nonconformity lifestyle?
00:19:02.760 Well, sure, because the main thing about an unconventional lifestyle, at least, you know,
00:19:06.300 in the kind of writing that I do, is firstly thinking about motivations and thinking about, like,
00:19:11.060 why do we do the things we do?
00:19:12.860 And so I have, like, my desktop screensaver is this image that comes up and it actually says,
00:19:18.520 why do you do this every single day?
00:19:20.120 So it's really good because, like, I log into my computer and I'm like, oh, why am I doing this?
00:19:23.080 It's a good thing, you know, good thing to think about this because it's so easy.
00:19:27.260 Whether you're self-employed or work for somebody else, it really doesn't matter.
00:19:29.940 I mean, it's so easy to just fall into habit that we're doing stuff because that's what we did yesterday
00:19:34.320 or, you know, whatever.
00:19:36.780 So I think in some ways it's almost irrelevant whether, you know, whether it's the day job
00:19:41.900 or something else or the art of nonconformity lifestyle or whatever.
00:19:45.100 I mean, the most important thing is figuring out why we do what we do.
00:19:47.500 And if someone's motivated, you know, to punch the clock, if they're doing really good work, you know,
00:19:52.180 if they're part of a good company or organization, if they feel like they're making a difference, then that's great, you know.
00:19:57.720 So maybe there's a way they can introduce some other elements, you know, to their life.
00:20:02.020 If they're interested in travel, maybe they can take a one, you know, one to two-week trip every year.
00:20:07.420 And then that's a really big thing.
00:20:08.700 And then they're saving up for that.
00:20:09.720 And they're also, like, reading up, you know, well in advance of the trip and maybe connecting with other people, you know,
00:20:15.680 on Twitter or forums or whatever.
00:20:17.500 In some ways they're probably going to have a better experience in that country than I would because I'm going places all the time.
00:20:22.820 So I definitely think, you know, the most important thing is figuring out, like, why we do what we do
00:20:27.300 and then, you know, figuring out what we want and then, you know, gradually making changes to where it's a little bit closer to, you know,
00:20:34.900 the lifestyle that we want.
00:20:35.920 Yeah, I think that's a good point because I think you read a lot of these lifestyle design blogs out there
00:20:40.260 and they make it sound like the only way you can be happy is if, you know, you're doing, like, working four hours a week
00:20:46.360 and, you know, you're dancing tango, like, on the beaches of Argentina or whatever.
00:20:51.520 I mean, I don't even know if there's beaches in Argentina, but, you know, you're whatever.
00:20:55.280 And I think it kind of sets people up for something like they're like, man, I should be doing that, but I don't want to, you know.
00:21:01.460 Yes, exactly.
00:21:02.620 Well, the other thing is I think I'm actually pro-work, you know.
00:21:06.420 I think if we hate our work, it's probably because we're doing the wrong kind of work, you know.
00:21:11.000 I think most of us, I mean, speaking of men, I would say most men probably have a desire to, like, contribute to something meaningful
00:21:18.300 and to leave some kind of impact, and, you know, that involves work.
00:21:21.620 So, I mean, however you do it, whether you're doing it for yourself or you're doing it for something else that you believe in, you know,
00:21:27.300 I think it's worth doing.
00:21:28.800 All right, so how does your wife feel about your lifestyle?
00:21:32.380 You're married.
00:21:34.100 Yep.
00:21:34.400 Is she, I mean, I guess, I mean, it sounds like she's all on board because you guys did the mission trip together, right?
00:21:40.240 Yeah, that's correct.
00:21:40.960 Yeah, yeah, we were overseas together for four years.
00:21:43.220 So, yeah, I don't want to speak for her too much, of course, because, you know, she speaks for herself.
00:21:46.600 But I would say, you know, we've been married a long time, and we did the four years in Africa together,
00:21:53.700 and now she works as an artist, so she has kind of an unconventional life of her own.
00:21:58.960 The travel is something that we definitely had to kind of work out together, because now I'm mostly traveling by myself.
00:22:03.980 She does come on some things, but most of the time when I'm going off on these, you know, two-week adventures,
00:22:08.540 I'm usually by myself.
00:22:10.280 So that's actually the answer to the question people sometimes ask me, which is, why do you only go for two weeks at a time?
00:22:16.180 And I say, well, because I'd like to stay married.
00:22:18.960 So I travel, and then I come back, and I'm here for two to three weeks in my home base of Portland, Oregon.
00:22:26.420 So that's been a conversation.
00:22:27.920 It's an ongoing conversation, and, you know, I want to make sure that I'm doing what I want to do,
00:22:35.000 but also not neglectful of my responsibilities and obligations.
00:22:39.340 Yeah, something I guess that kind of leads to my next question.
00:22:41.860 I mean, what kind of advice would you give to a man who's like, all right, Chris, I'm ready to do, like, live the dream.
00:22:48.220 I want to travel the world.
00:22:49.980 I'm going to, like, quit my job and, you know, become a blacksmith or whatever.
00:22:54.960 But the missus is kind of reluctant.
00:22:58.000 What should I do to, like, sell her on this idea?
00:23:00.180 What would you tell that guy?
00:23:02.040 Interesting.
00:23:02.940 I guess, you know, the more that she can be a part of it, maybe the more she might be supportive of it.
00:23:09.960 Like I said, that was one thing when we first went overseas.
00:23:13.200 That was not something I considered doing on my own because that was such a long commitment that, like, talked with her.
00:23:19.100 And she was, you know, to her credit, she was really up for it from the beginning.
00:23:22.800 But if not, maybe there's a way to compromise.
00:23:26.700 Maybe there's a way that, you know, maybe she has some kind of dreams in this situation that she's not pursuing.
00:23:33.020 So I might want to say, well, what, you know, is there something that you'd like to be doing that you haven't done or something that you thought about when you were a kid but you just kind of forgot about because you thought, like, it wasn't realistic or whatever?
00:23:42.800 Or, you know, how can we craft a story together?
00:23:47.300 We've got your story.
00:23:48.180 We've got my story.
00:23:49.260 And, you know, somewhat those are individual stories.
00:23:51.720 But, like, since we're married or we're in a partnership or whatever, like, how can we craft some kind of story together?
00:23:57.840 So, I mean, it's an interesting question.
00:23:59.380 I do hear from a lot of people that both men and women that kind of ride in with that same question and say, oh, I want to do this, but my partner has a different idea.
00:24:06.920 I never know exactly what to say.
00:24:09.280 But, you know, I do see a lot of examples where it ends up working out.
00:24:12.320 Yeah, it just takes a lot of communication, I guess.
00:24:15.420 Yeah.
00:24:15.920 Yeah.
00:24:16.120 All right, well, Chris, any parting advice for men who are looking to live an unconventional lifestyle?
00:24:23.840 I'm trying to think of if there's anything we haven't covered.
00:24:26.600 I've been doing this conversation, and I'm a big fan of the Heart of Men community.
00:24:31.160 So if anybody's out there and has any other questions, definitely feel free to contact me if anybody needs help with the travel stuff
00:24:37.480 or if they've got a business thing they're working on or just a question or whatever.
00:24:41.600 I'm happy to help with that.
00:24:43.660 I can't think of any huge parting words or advice, except you guys are great, and I'm really thrilled to be a part of your community.
00:24:50.020 Awesome.
00:24:50.360 Well, Chris, thanks for your time.
00:24:51.540 It's been a pleasure.
00:24:53.340 Thanks a lot, Brad.
00:24:53.920 Our guest today was Chris Guillebeau.
00:24:56.520 Chris is the author of the blog, The Art of Nonconformity, and you can find out more information about Chris's work at chrisguillebeau.com.
00:25:03.860 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:25:13.700 For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com.
00:25:19.100 And until next time, stay manly.
00:25:33.860 Thank you.
00:26:03.860 Thank you.
00:26:33.860 Thank you.
00:27:03.860 Thank you.
00:27:33.860 Thank you.
00:27:34.860 Thank you.