Episode #25： The Art of Non-Conformity with Chris Guillebeau
Episode Stats
Words per Minute
198.40366
Summary
Chris Guillebeau is the owner of the blog The Art of Nonconformity, where he writes about challenging the status quo and living a non-conventional life. In addition to writing, Chris spends his time traveling the world and he has a goal of visiting every country in the world.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another episode of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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Well, as boys, we probably all had dreams of living extraordinary lives.
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Perhaps you dreamed of owning a cabin in the mountains and taking tourists on guided fly-fishing excursions.
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Or maybe your dream was to travel the world with your steamer trunk and haggling with merchants at a bazaar in Istanbul.
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But if you're like most men, you probably gave up on those dreams thinking they were just childish fantasies
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and then you had to join the real world by getting a job, settling down, and paying bills.
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Sure, you might have a decent life, but it feels so ordinary, so conventional.
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And there's still a part of you that yearns to fulfill the boyhood dream and you would give anything to make it a reality.
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Well, our guest today is a man who decided not to live a conventional life and he helps others live the life they always wanted.
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His name is Chris Guillebeau and is the owner of the blog The Art of Nonconformity,
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where he writes about challenging the status quo and living a non-conventional life.
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In addition to writing, Chris spends his time traveling the world and he has a goal of visiting every country in the world
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Chris's work has been featured in the New York Times, Washington Post, MSNBC, and Anderson Cooper 360,
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and Chris will be publishing a book based on his blog this fall called The Art of Nonconformity.
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Thanks for having me. That was a great introduction.
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Well, I wanted to introduce you well and do it well.
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So, Chris, what inspired you to ditch the typical life plan for men that's usually, you know, college, job, marriage, mortgage,
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Well, I think there were a number of turning points.
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I actually had the fairly typical plan of college and marriage, and I got married pretty young.
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But I think probably one of the big turning points was 9-11, which really affected me just like it affected many men and women all over the world.
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So I think when that happened, I was about 21, 22, and that experience just, you know, it depressed me for several months like it did for a lot of people
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and kind of helped me to ask, you know, questions about my own life of, like, what am I really doing?
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Like, I used to have these dreams of traveling and always thought that I would do something, you know, overseas to help people or, you know,
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to kind of connect my life with others or whatever, and I wasn't really doing that.
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Like, I had been working for myself, and I started a business, and that was fun, but I still thought it was kind of, you know,
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small compared to, like, the needs of the world and everything.
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So I was just really tripped out by that and ended up going with my wife and moving to West Africa.
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And that was in 2002, and we heard about a volunteer opportunity to go and be a part of this medical mission
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And so we made a two-year commitment to that, and then it turned into kind of a four-year commitment,
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just living in the region and, you know, facilitating the process of helping these nations kind of recover from a civil war.
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So that was, like, a very, very intense emotional experience, you know, over four years, the four-year volunteer commitment.
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So that was probably one of the biggest things, like, you know, actually, like, being depressed after 9-11
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and then finding a way to kind of respond and reach out and go and be a part of something that was bigger than me.
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And then, you know, 2002 to 2006, we were overseas and then came back to the States, relocated to Seattle,
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and I did grad school at the University of Washington.
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And while I was at grad school, I started another business and was doing some business consulting and different stuff,
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and I felt like I wanted to kind of transition to where I had done a lot of stuff.
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I had helped people on an individual basis with my business consulting and my volunteer work and stuff,
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but I wanted to kind of, like, move to a broader basis and, like, do something bigger.
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And so that's when, just a couple of years ago, I kind of started the writing career and started the blog
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So those are a few things that kind of led up to where I am now.
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And so I guess after the trip to Ethiopia, you were kind of in this mode where you're like,
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this is what I want to do for the rest of my life, not have the conventional life
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and live my life according to how I want to do it.
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And then also just the experience of being self-employed for a while
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and then just the broader worldview that came about through travel.
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Definitely the broader worldview of living in Africa,
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but then I'd also traveled throughout a lot of countries in Europe
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and then southern Africa as well and a bit in Asia.
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So I guess, like, the more I did, the more I wanted to do more.
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I guess, like, once you have a taste of something, then you kind of see,
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oh, there's a bigger world out there and, you know,
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I don't have to do things the same way that other generations have done
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So it's definitely been more of a process than, like, a single thing.
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So part of your kind of lifestyle you've chosen to live is to travel a lot.
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And, you know, you have the goal of reaching every,
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Yeah, this kind of started, like, right around the time
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when I came back from Africa and went to Seattle.
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I had a lot of school breaks just with the cycle of grad school.
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And so I started doing, like, these two-week trips just by myself going off.
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And by that point, I had traveled a lot in West Africa,
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so I was pretty comfortable, you know, in difficult countries or poorer countries.
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Just kind of crazy little out-of-the-way places like that.
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And I guess after I had done this a little while,
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I started counting up the number of places I had been to just non-strategically.
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And so I realized I'd been to, like, maybe between 50 and 100 countries.
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And I thought, well, let's set a goal of visiting 100 countries.
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And so I kind of, like, worked out how much that would cost.
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My first thing is, like, oh, how can I do that?
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And how, you know, how much money is that going to cost?
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And I realized, like, having been to about 50 countries,
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it would cost me about $30,000 or so to go to the next 50.
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And my first thought was, like, wow, that's $30,000.
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You know, of course, on the one hand, it's a lot of money.
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But on the other hand, it's actually not as much as I would expect to do that
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over a number of years and to really set this as a personal goal
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and to make sacrifices in other areas, you know, so that I can focus on that.
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And then as I got closer to 100, then I started thinking, like, oh, what's next?
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You know, like, I was turning 30 years old, and I was like, okay,
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But, you know, why not go to every country in the world?
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So that's how that came about, which is a little bit more difficult
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because with just 100, you can kind of pick and choose, you know,
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and you can go to some of the easier countries or whatever.
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But, you know, to go to every country, you can't just, you know,
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put something off the list because you don't want to go there or whatever.
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My goal is to do it before my 35th birthday, which is coming up in about three years.
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So I'm down to about two and a half years left to get to the final 50.
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And so when you go, when you travel, what exactly do you do?
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Are you just seeing the sites or do you do volunteer work when you're there?
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I mean, how do you fill the time when you're visiting these countries?
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Yeah, I'm not doing a whole lot of volunteer work, at least not overseas right now.
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That's difficult to do when you're just going somewhere for a briefer period of time.
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Like now that I work as a writer, that continues, you know, wherever I am in the world
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And I have a small business that kind of works with the blog where I sell information products.
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So everywhere I am, you know, I'm always working.
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I usually work a few hours a day and then I go out.
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Like if I'm somewhere for a few days, I might work in the morning and then go out in the afternoon.
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And one thing that's really interesting that's kind of changed a bit over the past couple of years
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is I'm naturally a pretty shy, introverted person.
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But now that I have this blog, like I've got readers all over the world.
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And so I've learned that I actually don't have to prepare very much at all.
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If I'm going somewhere, like I'm probably going to know at least somebody, usually, you know,
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And so I've been doing meetups in the different countries I'm going to.
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And like some local people will come and meet me and then take me around and show me,
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you know, whatever they want me to see or whatever, which is really quite fun
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because I can see stuff that I wouldn't ordinarily, you know, be able to see
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But now I don't even need a guidebook, you know, I just show up and there are people there to take me around.
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So you mentioned a little bit about the price of traveling the world.
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You know, I know there's a lot of men who would love to travel more,
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but they don't because they just don't think they have the money.
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I mean, is it pretty affordable to travel like you do?
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I think there's a few things we could say about this.
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And we could talk about this probably for an entire podcast.
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But I'll try to be concise and say a couple of things.
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The first thing is, like, whenever I think about spending money, whether it's for travel or for anything else,
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like, I always try to think about priorities and values.
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Like, my priorities and values won't be the same as anyone else's.
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But I always try to, you know, be very conscious about, you know, what I'm choosing to spend my money on.
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In some ways, I'm very frugal, perhaps even to a fault in some ways.
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Like, we've been living back in the States for three years, and we don't own a car.
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We've chosen to rent a home rather than own a home, which I know is not the right thing for everybody.
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So I guess the first thing is, like, I've just kind of chosen to really identify this goal as something that's important to me,
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and that's what I'm willing to invest in, and that's what I put a lot of disposable income into.
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But then secondly, because I've been doing this for a while, like, I've learned quite a bit, usually through trial and error, a lot of error.
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But now I do this thing that I call travel hacking, which is kind of like life hacking or, you know, hacking different things on your MacBook or Gmail or whatever.
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And so now I've kind of learned to travel quite affordably.
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And my average plane ticket cost now is about $300 to $400, and that includes, like, lots of long-haul flights to Hong Kong or to Johannesburg or wherever.
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I think right now I have about 800,000 frequent flyer miles that I'm, like, constantly cycling,
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and I'm, like, every year I'm getting a few hundred thousand more from different promotions and things,
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and I'm using a few hundred thousand, you know, to go on all these trips.
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And for someone who's not trying to do what I'm doing, which I assume is almost everyone,
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if someone just wants to travel a little bit, they're not trying to go to Iraq or, you know, wherever,
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Because now, actually, it's getting a little bit more expensive for me because I'm getting down to these final countries that I have to get to.
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But if I just wanted to go to Thailand or Australia or, you know, somewhere,
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then I don't think that's too difficult at all.
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So, again, first of all, with the mindset of priorities and, like, we're going to save up for this because it's important to us.
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But then secondly, with, like, thinking about the creative approach of different ways to do it with miles,
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with award tickets, around-the-world tickets, you know, or whatever.
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So instead of buying the new excursion, you put the money into an account to go traveling, is what?
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I have a separate savings account that I use just for my travel stuff.
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And that's really made my life a lot easier just to kind of have it there and not think too much about it.
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And you share some of these kind of travel things you've learned in the information products you sell on your site.
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I mean, I also share some of it just on the blog.
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If someone has a specific question, I'm more than happy to help with that.
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But then, yes, I do have, like, a Frequent Firemaster product that kind of goes into it in much more detail
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and talks about, you know, how all the different promotions work and how the airline alliances work
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and how you can kind of get some of these deals.
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So, Chris, your blog and the different products you sell are all geared towards helping people live unconventional lives.
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What do you think is the number one thing that holds men back from living the life they want?
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So I would say for myself, I would say that the number one thing that held me back for a long time was my own fear and my own insecurity.
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I guess, you know, I think, let's see how to put this.
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A lot of us live our lives kind of out of the desire for approval or out of, like, the fear of what other people think of us.
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And I know that's certainly true in my life for a long time.
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But I think I just kind of learned, you know, over time to overcome that, not really to get past the fear,
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but just to find a way, like, to work with it or whatever.
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I mean, I wish, you know, the experiences that I'm having now with the site and the travel and stuff,
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Like, I had been thinking for five years about starting a blog.
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But I think for a couple of years, you know, the main reason why I didn't,
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didn't have anything to do with anything practical or with money or with anything else in my life,
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but just kind of with fear and, you know, insecurity and, oh, what are people going to think about me and that kind of thing.
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And going on that, talking about kind of the fear of what other people think,
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I think a lot of men do things because, and a lot of people,
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but I think particularly men do things because it's expected of them.
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I think with men, they often, like, tie it up with kind of their masculinities.
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I mean, what do you think, what should a man do?
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How do you deal with that pressure of dealing with kind of those social expectations
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and explaining to mom and dad or your mentor that, you know,
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I'm not, sorry, I'm not going to be an attorney at a high-powered firm.
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I actually want to teach kids how to sculpt with clay.
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what advice would you give to a man to kind of deal with that pressure?
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We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.
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I think that a lot of us probably, specifically men, do feel that pressure.
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I guess, let's see, I'd say a couple of things.
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The first thing is, you know, we really do need to, if we're going to, like, you know,
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come into our own identity as men, I think we have to figure out, first of all, like,
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You know, answering all those personal questions, which I do think,
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even though they're kind of like introspective, I think are quite important.
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And then secondly, trying to find the link or the bridge between, you know,
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those personal things and, you know, how our lives are connected with other people.
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So, in other words, what's it really all about and how are we going to change the world
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and, you know, how are we going to combine our own dreams and stuff with something that's
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And I think, you know, I think once we begin striving towards those things, I think obviously
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we're going to come up against, you know, different expectations or assumptions or pressure.
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I guess I would say, for my case, it's gotten easier.
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The more that I've been, like, the more small, like, I started taking small steps and then,
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I remember when I first started traveling, you know, like, my parents were freaked out
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and they would call and they would hear that I'm in Hong Kong or something and they would,
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And now it's like they don't even know what continent I'm on.
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They're like, we don't know where you are, Chris, but, you know, let us know if anything.
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And I think at some point you just have to take the leap.
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And I know it's not easy, but nothing worth doing is never really easy, you know?
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You write and you do these things to kind of fund your flexible lifestyle that you have.
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What advice would you give, kind of just basic advice, would you give to a man, you know,
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if he's working the nine-to-five job but would eventually like to do what you're doing,
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kind of have the flexibility to travel or do whatever?
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Does it have to be done through a blog or can you create a small business doing something else that he's passionate about?
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I think it's actually a lot easier to create a small business doing something else without a blog
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or maybe by, you know, using the blog to support something else as opposed to, you know,
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starting a blog with a primary goal of creating a new career.
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I think actually, like, it's much easier to look at something that you're passionate about,
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but not only that you're passionate about, but other people are also passionate about and willing to spend money on.
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I think that's the key point that I try to address in a lot of the small business stuff that I do
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is to really, like, look for the convergence between what you're really excited about, your passion,
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and what other people are also excited about and interested in,
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which I think is something that the Art of Manliness community has done really well, right,
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because it's something that you have this interest in, and then, you know,
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there's a whole community of people also interested in the same thing.
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So that's kind of a common mistake people make when they talk about, like, following your passion,
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and you have to – it has to be your passion, but it has to be somebody else's passion as well.
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So I always encourage people, like, to look for that convergence.
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And if you're working 9 to 5, in some ways that's easier than if you're not,
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because then you, like, you can't mess around, basically, if you don't have unlimited time,
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And, you know, you can totally start anything on the side.
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Most businesses are not started, like, with venture capital, with, you know,
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a team of 10 people who are going to work full-time.
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You know, most businesses are started just, you know, the way you started out of manliness
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or how I started unconventionalguides.com or whatever.
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You know, you can start small and then see how people respond and, you know, go from there.
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So, yeah, so it's don't – I guess, moonlight first and then kind of test the waters out
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Yeah, well, I think everyone's situation is different.
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And I don't have to counsel people, like, you know, to quit their job without anything there or whatever.
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I mean, I think we all have a desire for security, and I think that's totally fine.
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I mean, I just like to kind of redefine security and look at what security really is.
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You know, is security a 9-to-5 job or is security your own competence?
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You know, security – you know, if your own competence is a security, then you can do that in a job
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It may be a different fit at different times in your life, and, you know, there may be some times you go back and forth,
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and all of that's totally fine, but I just think it's good to kind of – let's look at what we're, you know,
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what we're really all about and what we're doing.
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So what about men who are, you know, who actually enjoy working the traditional 9-to-5 job?
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You know, they like to clock in at 8 o'clock and then leave at 5.30 or whatever.
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Can they still live an unconventional life or an art of nonconformity lifestyle?
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Well, sure, because the main thing about an unconventional lifestyle, at least, you know,
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in the kind of writing that I do, is firstly thinking about motivations and thinking about, like,
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And so I have, like, my desktop screensaver is this image that comes up and it actually says,
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So it's really good because, like, I log into my computer and I'm like, oh, why am I doing this?
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It's a good thing, you know, good thing to think about this because it's so easy.
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Whether you're self-employed or work for somebody else, it really doesn't matter.
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I mean, it's so easy to just fall into habit that we're doing stuff because that's what we did yesterday
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So I think in some ways it's almost irrelevant whether, you know, whether it's the day job
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or something else or the art of nonconformity lifestyle or whatever.
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I mean, the most important thing is figuring out why we do what we do.
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And if someone's motivated, you know, to punch the clock, if they're doing really good work, you know,
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if they're part of a good company or organization, if they feel like they're making a difference, then that's great, you know.
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So maybe there's a way they can introduce some other elements, you know, to their life.
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If they're interested in travel, maybe they can take a one, you know, one to two-week trip every year.
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And they're also, like, reading up, you know, well in advance of the trip and maybe connecting with other people, you know,
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In some ways they're probably going to have a better experience in that country than I would because I'm going places all the time.
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So I definitely think, you know, the most important thing is figuring out, like, why we do what we do
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and then, you know, figuring out what we want and then, you know, gradually making changes to where it's a little bit closer to, you know,
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Yeah, I think that's a good point because I think you read a lot of these lifestyle design blogs out there
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and they make it sound like the only way you can be happy is if, you know, you're doing, like, working four hours a week
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and, you know, you're dancing tango, like, on the beaches of Argentina or whatever.
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I mean, I don't even know if there's beaches in Argentina, but, you know, you're whatever.
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And I think it kind of sets people up for something like they're like, man, I should be doing that, but I don't want to, you know.
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Well, the other thing is I think I'm actually pro-work, you know.
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I think if we hate our work, it's probably because we're doing the wrong kind of work, you know.
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I think most of us, I mean, speaking of men, I would say most men probably have a desire to, like, contribute to something meaningful
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and to leave some kind of impact, and, you know, that involves work.
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So, I mean, however you do it, whether you're doing it for yourself or you're doing it for something else that you believe in, you know,
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All right, so how does your wife feel about your lifestyle?
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Is she, I mean, I guess, I mean, it sounds like she's all on board because you guys did the mission trip together, right?
00:21:40.960
Yeah, yeah, we were overseas together for four years.
00:21:43.220
So, yeah, I don't want to speak for her too much, of course, because, you know, she speaks for herself.
00:21:46.600
But I would say, you know, we've been married a long time, and we did the four years in Africa together,
00:21:53.700
and now she works as an artist, so she has kind of an unconventional life of her own.
00:21:58.960
The travel is something that we definitely had to kind of work out together, because now I'm mostly traveling by myself.
00:22:03.980
She does come on some things, but most of the time when I'm going off on these, you know, two-week adventures,
00:22:10.280
So that's actually the answer to the question people sometimes ask me, which is, why do you only go for two weeks at a time?
00:22:16.180
And I say, well, because I'd like to stay married.
00:22:18.960
So I travel, and then I come back, and I'm here for two to three weeks in my home base of Portland, Oregon.
00:22:27.920
It's an ongoing conversation, and, you know, I want to make sure that I'm doing what I want to do,
00:22:35.000
but also not neglectful of my responsibilities and obligations.
00:22:39.340
Yeah, something I guess that kind of leads to my next question.
00:22:41.860
I mean, what kind of advice would you give to a man who's like, all right, Chris, I'm ready to do, like, live the dream.
00:22:49.980
I'm going to, like, quit my job and, you know, become a blacksmith or whatever.
00:22:58.000
What should I do to, like, sell her on this idea?
00:23:02.940
I guess, you know, the more that she can be a part of it, maybe the more she might be supportive of it.
00:23:09.960
Like I said, that was one thing when we first went overseas.
00:23:13.200
That was not something I considered doing on my own because that was such a long commitment that, like, talked with her.
00:23:19.100
And she was, you know, to her credit, she was really up for it from the beginning.
00:23:26.700
Maybe there's a way that, you know, maybe she has some kind of dreams in this situation that she's not pursuing.
00:23:33.020
So I might want to say, well, what, you know, is there something that you'd like to be doing that you haven't done or something that you thought about when you were a kid but you just kind of forgot about because you thought, like, it wasn't realistic or whatever?
00:23:42.800
Or, you know, how can we craft a story together?
00:23:49.260
And, you know, somewhat those are individual stories.
00:23:51.720
But, like, since we're married or we're in a partnership or whatever, like, how can we craft some kind of story together?
00:23:59.380
I do hear from a lot of people that both men and women that kind of ride in with that same question and say, oh, I want to do this, but my partner has a different idea.
00:24:09.280
But, you know, I do see a lot of examples where it ends up working out.
00:24:12.320
Yeah, it just takes a lot of communication, I guess.
00:24:16.120
All right, well, Chris, any parting advice for men who are looking to live an unconventional lifestyle?
00:24:23.840
I'm trying to think of if there's anything we haven't covered.
00:24:26.600
I've been doing this conversation, and I'm a big fan of the Heart of Men community.
00:24:31.160
So if anybody's out there and has any other questions, definitely feel free to contact me if anybody needs help with the travel stuff
00:24:37.480
or if they've got a business thing they're working on or just a question or whatever.
00:24:43.660
I can't think of any huge parting words or advice, except you guys are great, and I'm really thrilled to be a part of your community.
00:24:56.520
Chris is the author of the blog, The Art of Nonconformity, and you can find out more information about Chris's work at chrisguillebeau.com.
00:25:03.860
Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:25:13.700
For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com.