The Art of Manliness - Episode #33： Interview With Dr. Baumeister Part 2

00:00:00.000 Welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:20.600 Well, in this week's episode, we continue our conversation with Dr. Roy Baumeister.

00:00:25.780 He's the author of the book, Is There Anything Good About Men?

00:00:30.100 Enjoy.

00:00:32.700 And you mentioned just a moment ago about the importance for reward for men, it seems.

00:00:39.180 Men will do these crazy, risky things to gain respect or admiration or recognition from larger society.

00:00:50.440 But it seems like our society, some people would say, that we don't value or we want to diminish risk

00:00:56.340 and we shouldn't glorify things like violence or going off and sailing across the world

00:01:02.840 or whatever these things that people do nowadays.

00:01:06.660 I mean, if you take away that reward for risk, I mean, are men going to be, I mean, is that kind of kills the motivation for men?

00:01:13.760 I don't think it's that society is glorifying risk, per se.

00:01:17.280 It's just that some jobs require risk.

00:01:19.600 When there's a burning building, somebody has to go into it and try to save the people into it.

00:01:25.140 Somebody has to stand up and try to put out the fire.

00:01:27.540 Well, these risks are dangerous.

00:01:30.600 When there are criminals, you have to engage in a shootout with them.

00:01:34.220 Well, there's some risk there, but somebody has to do it.

00:01:37.220 When it's a matter of driving trucks all night or climbing up into high and dangerous places to fix things that are damaged,

00:01:47.440 well, somebody has to do these things.

00:01:50.100 And they contain some risk.

00:01:52.180 It's not going to be possible to eliminate fatal risk from our society.

00:01:57.760 And so, in general, society sees that those jobs should be done by men.

00:02:05.400 To some extent, we open them up for women, but women aren't as interested in those jobs either, 1.00

00:02:09.040 even though they might pay a little more.

00:02:11.380 Women work indoors much more than men. 0.97

00:02:14.260 Women work other sorts of jobs that are safer and contain less physical risk. 1.00

00:02:20.340 It's a choice.

00:02:21.140 It's a tradeoff that people make.

00:02:22.920 But I didn't mean to suggest that society is encouraging people to do crazy things as stunts.

00:02:28.980 Occasionally that happens.

00:02:30.840 But there are simply some jobs that inevitably come with some degree of danger with them.

00:02:37.440 I remember one part, and I think this is what I was trying to get to, and I think I just misspoke.

00:02:41.740 We talked about the motivation for boys in schools.

00:02:44.480 We started seeing this decline when the whole self-esteem movement started picking up.

00:02:50.980 And everyone was given high grades.

00:02:53.900 Everyone's, you know, they're encouraging.

00:02:56.200 They give rewards to anybody, no matter, even if everyone didn't do very well.

00:03:00.420 And I think you might have suggested somewhere in your book that, you know, for boys or for men,

00:03:06.200 that if no one can fail, then there's no risk involved or, you know, everyone's treated the same,

00:03:10.980 then there's really no point because, you know, you can't earn that glory, I guess, is, I think, what you mentioned.

00:03:17.280 Yeah, I think there's a difference.

00:03:21.960 I think the self-esteem movement is something that's probably better for girls than for boys.

00:03:28.980 A little more encouragement and reassurance maybe goes down well with the girls. 0.99

00:03:35.800 And great inflation and things like that, everybody getting an A.

00:03:39.320 Well, if you get an A with everybody else getting an A, in a sense, perhaps that's more okay with the girl than the boy.

00:03:47.060 There's still some striving for greatness, some desire more to be the one.

00:03:52.120 And this goes back to biological differences.

00:03:56.020 Again, you know, we're descended from twice as many women as men, 1.00

00:04:00.900 the ancestors of today's human race, twice as many women as men there, 0.78

00:04:06.040 which meant that in order to pass along your genes,

00:04:09.940 we're descended from the people who successfully passed on their genes,

00:04:12.680 the man, much more than the woman, had to stand out, had to fight his way to the top,

00:04:17.300 had to dominate some hierarchy.

00:04:19.320 So competing against other men to be one of the few elite and winners,

00:04:24.340 that's more deeply rooted in the male than in the female psyche. 0.99

00:04:28.820 Our schools, we know the boys are not doing as well as girls these days.

00:04:33.780 There's much worrying about what that means and what the prognosis is.

00:04:39.520 We have changed, certainly, our schools in many ways with the best of intentions.

00:04:44.620 I think there was a time we felt that the schools were failing girls

00:04:48.700 and they needed to do more to take care of girls. 1.00

00:04:51.740 But there are very strong outspoken voices all over looking out for the interests of girls.

00:04:56.540 There's pretty much nobody looking out for the interests of boys.

00:04:59.100 And so when a school has a decision to make, we decided some time ago

00:05:04.160 that we're going to treat boys and girls the same,

00:05:06.340 and then we have to decide, well, should we do what's best for the girls or what's best for the boys?

00:05:10.480 Well, to do what's best for the boys would be seen as sexist,

00:05:13.060 and would provoke an outcry to do what's best for the girls seems more appropriate and fine. 0.98

00:05:18.040 And so over and over again, the schools and administrators,

00:05:20.780 who, again, are mostly women, make that decision, and everyone goes along with it.

00:05:26.760 And the upshot is we've gotten to where we are essentially raising boys like girls, 0.59

00:05:31.980 which is probably not the best thing for bringing out the best in the boys.

00:05:36.300 Here, issues are speculation.

00:05:38.580 Here I go beyond what's the solid factual knowledge,

00:05:42.780 and I have to do a little bit of guesswork.

00:05:45.080 But with things like the self-esteem movement being very better for girls,

00:05:49.860 well, we know girls have very slightly lower self-esteem than boys,

00:05:54.300 and especially, say, in the teen years, the boys tend to be more egotistical and narcissistic.

00:05:59.580 Probably nature's way of preparing the young male for the rather challenging competition

00:06:03.860 that it's had to take in competing and trying to get to be the top,

00:06:09.420 you know, back in our biological heritage,

00:06:11.440 which the girl did not so much have to do. 0.98

00:06:15.960 And so confidence to fight and compete was probably more necessary.

00:06:20.720 It's what we don't like about the male ego,

00:06:22.600 but it probably had a valid biological function.

00:06:25.900 But now to bolster that and tell young men and reassure their self-esteem,

00:06:32.220 that sort of ends up cultivating this narcissism that much more,

00:06:35.680 which I think is a destructive trait and not conducive.

00:06:39.620 The cultures that have done best at producing successful crops of men 0.99

00:06:44.300 have tended to instill humility instead in the young men

00:06:47.200 to try to puncture their egotistical balloon and bring them down to earth

00:06:51.140 and say, you've got to learn your place and earn your position

00:06:54.200 and achieve and accomplish and fight your way to the top and prove yourself

00:06:58.960 rather than have respect just given to you for being there.

00:07:02.600 And so when we instead just give them respect and everything,

00:07:06.600 then I think that doesn't do what's best for the young male psyche.

00:07:11.280 We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

00:07:14.380 And now back to the show.

00:07:16.200 So you talk about marriage and sex in your book,

00:07:18.720 and one of the issues discussed is why so many younger men today

00:07:22.440 are putting off marriage longer and longer.

00:07:25.600 Are men trying to stay in eternal adolescence, 0.50

00:07:28.100 or is there something else going on here?

00:07:31.280 I think there are several things going on.

00:07:33.440 The eternal adolescence argument is perhaps a reproach or a ploy

00:07:38.920 or a way to manipulate men, even though there may be something to it.

00:07:43.440 But one thing, if you take the long view, I should add,

00:07:46.020 the age of first marriage has gone up and down throughout history.

00:07:48.740 We tend to compare it to the 1950s when it was exceptionally low.

00:07:51.860 It was higher, I think, in the early parts of the 20th century,

00:07:56.340 and it has gone up and down with various factors.

00:08:01.140 It is going up now and perhaps higher than it's ever been.

00:08:05.700 So we want to look probably there are a couple things going on.

00:08:09.060 For one thing, one of the main reasons that pressured people into marrying early

00:08:15.440 was that that was the only way to have sex,

00:08:18.200 yet that's no longer a constraint that single people can have plenty of sex.

00:08:23.660 And so one of the main reasons to rush and get married early has been taken away.

00:08:29.820 The eternal adolescence, well, there may be, as I said,

00:08:33.560 as we put less pressure on young people to mature and grow up and take on adult roles,

00:08:39.340 and we allow them to stay in independent roles of being a student, things like that.

00:08:45.200 Well, then, why not stay in adolescence a little bit longer?

00:08:48.820 Adolescence can be a very pleasant time,

00:08:51.240 especially when all your needs are taken care of and you have money and a nice place to live

00:08:55.980 and people to sleep with and people to have fun with.

00:08:59.360 And so rushing into a more structured marriage kind of thing

00:09:05.120 is maybe not as appealing as it might have been another time.

00:09:11.580 I should add, too, though, that the idea that men are resisting this,

00:09:16.880 well, you can look at that, I mean, that's how the women might see it, 1.00

00:09:20.440 but you can look at it the other way.

00:09:21.940 Why are the women pushing men to be married? 1.00

00:09:24.640 I think there's a basic rationality in both the women wanting to get married earlier 1.00

00:09:30.500 and the men wanting to put it off.

00:09:32.120 For one thing, assuming you want to get married, you want to get the best possible partner,

00:09:39.420 that depends on your appeal as a mate.

00:09:42.340 And to simplify things rather drastically,

00:09:46.980 the biggest factor in a woman's appeal is her physical looks and beauty and attractiveness. 1.00

00:09:52.940 The biggest thing in a man's appeal is his ability to make money and be a provider.

00:09:58.480 Well, those have different time courses.

00:10:01.640 The woman's looks tend to peak earlier than the man's earning power, 1.00

00:10:07.260 so that as you go from 20 to 30 to 40,

00:10:12.280 well, very few women look as good at 40 as they did at 20, 1.00

00:10:16.180 and so their ability to attract the most desirable partner

00:10:20.000 has probably gone down steadily over that period of time,

00:10:23.460 whereas a man's ability in terms of his earning power

00:10:27.800 probably goes up from 20 to 30 to 40.

00:10:30.440 So his mate appeal, his desire to attract women,

00:10:34.240 has gone up over that time.

00:10:37.380 Hence, year by year, each year the woman thinks, 0.98

00:10:42.040 I should try to get married because next year my prospects will be a little worse than they are this year,

00:10:48.100 whereas each year the man can think my prospects will be a little better next year than this year,

00:10:53.640 so there is no hurry.

00:10:56.320 And that's just how they do it,

00:10:58.140 and there are a few other complicating factors that men and women tend to marry

00:11:02.080 with the man being a couple years older than the woman,

00:11:05.040 and yet as people get older there are fewer,

00:11:08.540 there's more and more surplus of women. 1.00

00:11:10.760 So again, though, that brings the same pressure that the woman wants to marry earlier 0.97

00:11:17.840 when there are a lot more older men available.

00:11:20.720 If the man waits longer, there are more and more younger women available. 1.00

00:11:24.600 So it's in the man's interest to wait,

00:11:28.400 whereas it's in the woman's interest not to wait. 1.00

00:11:31.180 Then we also have the childbearing factor,

00:11:32.920 that one of the reasons people get married is to have children,

00:11:36.740 although people have children without being married,

00:11:41.300 but it's still seen as a better way to do it.

00:11:45.380 And there, too, the woman's time for having children is limited, 1.00

00:11:48.760 so she is better off marrying earlier and having her children earlier, 0.99

00:11:53.900 but there's certainly no rush in the male.

00:11:56.460 A woman who's 40 usually is done having children. 1.00

00:12:00.140 If she's going to reproduce after that, she might have one or two, 0.99

00:12:04.700 just to be extra careful and so on.

00:12:06.740 A man at 40 still can have a dozen children in his life,

00:12:09.820 or more if he's particularly enterprising.

00:12:13.140 So there's no rush for him to get that over and done with in the same way.

00:12:18.960 And then there are even broader questions about who gets what out of marriage,

00:12:22.680 what are the benefits, what is the value.

00:12:26.560 Well, one way to look at marriage is it society's way of transferring money from men to women. 1.00

00:12:33.640 Certainly that tends to be what happens in divorce. 0.96

00:12:35.880 A lot of the money is taken from the man and transferred to the woman.

00:12:43.440 And I could see men saying there, well, what do I get out of it?

00:12:46.720 Now, both men and women are happier, a little happier when they are married than when they are not.

00:12:51.280 So there's an increase there.

00:12:53.080 Marriage does have intangible benefits.

00:12:54.880 But if you just wanted to take a cold, calculating approach to it,

00:12:58.740 it makes perfect sense for men to postpone marriage and even question whether they should do it at all.

00:13:03.300 So what's been the response to your book?

00:13:05.880 You lay out some pretty controversial things that I'm sure some women in academia wouldn't go over well with them. 0.99

00:13:12.660 But overall, what has been your response?

00:13:13.980 Well, the book just came out, so I haven't heard that much response.

00:13:19.580 I did make sure to circulate the book to women as well as men in academia before I released it

00:13:27.460 because I wanted to have something that people felt would be fair to both sides and would be respectful of everybody.

00:13:33.880 because, you know, this is in no way, this is not a pro-man book or an anti-woman book or anything like that.

00:13:42.280 It is trying to argue that basically men and women are different in some ways,

00:13:48.780 more in what they want than in what they're capable of,

00:13:51.880 that men and women have mostly worked together.

00:13:53.880 They've not been enemies, that they're a partner,

00:13:56.660 and that maybe they should appreciate each other a little more.

00:14:00.600 That's my message.

00:14:01.480 And I think it's a very, you know, positive and friendly message.

00:14:05.120 So that's what I'm hoping people will get from it.

00:14:08.400 Now, there's certainly an entrenched dogma about gender differences built up with this mostly victim mentality 1.00

00:14:17.520 by some feminist scholars.

00:14:21.080 And I used to call myself a feminist. 0.95

00:14:23.500 My wife jokes that I'm more of a feminist than she ever was. 1.00

00:14:27.880 But I have a little older.

00:14:30.240 Feminism in the 70s was open to everybody and meant openness to new ideas and challenging orthodox views and dogmas 0.88

00:14:37.800 and trying to make everyone have opportunities and equality.

00:14:44.140 And I still support those ideals.

00:14:45.580 But feminism has moved away from that, as many scholars have argued, 0.99

00:14:51.060 and has now become much more dogmatic and defending a particular view and promoting women at the expense of men.

00:14:58.440 And I can't go with it on that.

00:15:00.060 And so those people are certainly not going to like a book that says, well, men and women are equal and get along.

00:15:07.160 I think, if anything, one of the most issues that feminism has really built on is seeing men and women as basically enemies, 0.99

00:15:17.820 that men and women are fundamentally at odds with each other and that there's a struggle or battle of the sexes.

00:15:23.700 And I said, well, I want to get past the battle of the sexes, that men and women have been on the same side,

00:15:27.960 cooperating more than others and complementing each other and helping each other.

00:15:31.880 History is mostly, it's not been about men against women.

00:15:35.800 History has mostly been about groups of men supported by their women competing against other groups of men.

00:15:42.160 And if you want to look at warfare or trade or science or exploration or whatever,

00:15:48.560 it was generally competitions among groups of men, all of whom were crucially aided and supported by their women.

00:15:58.460 And so I'm trying to have a kinder, gentler, more harmonious view of gender relations.

00:16:06.940 And not everyone's going to like that.

00:16:08.740 Well, I thought the book was fascinating.

00:16:10.700 It was a really interesting read.

00:16:13.160 You know, it does bring up, does challenge a lot of things you hear in the popular culture.

00:16:17.540 And even when you're at school and undergrad, and I think a lot of men would enjoy reading it and just find it very fascinating.

00:16:24.700 Well, Professor Bowmaster, I really appreciate your time.

00:16:27.360 Thanks for talking to us.

00:16:28.200 And I wish you all the luck with your book.

00:16:30.440 Thank you very much, Brad.

00:16:31.400 It's been a pleasure.

00:16:32.000 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:16:38.080 For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness blog at artofmanliness.com.

00:16:43.600 And until next time, stay manly.

The Art of Manliness - April 04, 2014

Episode #33： Interview With Dr. Baumeister Part 2

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