The Art of Manliness - Episode #43： Simple Marriage With Dr. Corey Allan

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00:00:52.580 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:56.980 Well, today we're talking marriage.

00:00:59.160 Our guest today is Dr. Corey Allen.

00:01:01.180 He is a family and marriage therapist, has a PhD in family therapy,

00:01:05.220 and he runs the website Simple Marriage.

00:01:08.520 And today we're going to talk about if you're married right now,

00:01:11.260 what you can do to improve your marriage.

00:01:13.140 And if you're thinking about getting married,

00:01:15.040 what you can do today to prepare yourself for the best possible relationship with your future wife.

00:01:21.600 Well, Corey, welcome to the show.

00:01:23.980 Hi, thanks, Brad. I'm glad to be here.

00:01:25.280 So Simple Marriage, what's behind the name?

00:01:29.100 Like, what's the philosophy behind the Simple Marriage project?

00:01:33.200 Well, the main idea is, and it's just kind of a personal belief,

00:01:39.060 is that when I can keep things simple, things are better.

00:01:42.500 Because we make things way too complicated a lot of times with piling stuff on and clutter and everything.

00:01:48.960 And so the more simple I can keep it, the more important it stays.

00:01:52.820 And marriage seems to kind of ebb and flow in the world as far as a focus and relationships.

00:01:59.040 And it's a huge deal as far as relationships go.

00:02:03.340 But I want to try to help people see that their marriage is a priority throughout,

00:02:08.020 not just whenever there's a problem.

00:02:09.780 So the Simple Marriage started as a way to try to reach people before there were problems.

00:02:14.780 And it's kind of evolved into a two-pronged approach of there's great resources available for people.

00:02:20.400 There's want to improve marriages, and then there's also great resources available

00:02:23.600 that will help address specific issues that come up in any committed relationship.

00:02:28.960 All right. Well, good stuff.

00:02:30.500 So, I mean, here's a question I have.

00:02:31.760 I know a lot of our listeners and readers, they're in college or they just graduated college.

00:02:36.940 They're not married yet, but they're thinking about it, and they're going to be contemplating it.

00:02:41.100 What sort of things should these guys be doing now to prepare for a successful marriage?

00:02:46.240 Okay. Well, the easiest answer I can think of is to live full and passionate lives

00:02:55.640 that don't change too much upon being married.

00:02:59.720 I mean, relationships are always a component of life and of what you do.

00:03:05.480 But there's far too many couples, I think, that give up a whole lot of their life

00:03:10.140 for the sake of the relationship.

00:03:11.660 And then years into the relationship, when the passion and the spark is gone,

00:03:16.740 then they're like, now what?

00:03:18.480 You know, this is boring.

00:03:20.500 You know, I'm suffocating.

00:03:22.120 And it's because they gave up so much to be in the relationship.

00:03:24.960 So it's kind of that balancing act of live a full and passionate life

00:03:28.780 and let the relationship be a part of it, not a majority of it.

00:03:33.820 And so how do you tell these guys, how do you manage?

00:03:36.620 That's another thing.

00:03:37.120 How do you manage?

00:03:38.400 And this kind of leads into our next question.

00:03:39.620 How do you manage, you have a way of life, you're passionate about your life.

00:03:43.120 You find someone that you think is the one, but you find out your passions don't align, right?

00:03:50.900 Or like she doesn't like what you do or you don't like what she does.

00:03:54.800 So, I mean, that's the question.

00:03:55.500 Like, how do you know that, you know, if you're contemplating on asking a woman to marry you,

00:04:00.200 how do you know if she's the one?

00:04:01.560 I know people today, like, there's no such thing as the one.

00:04:03.420 I don't think there's the one.

00:04:04.480 But how do you know if she's compatible or right for a relationship? 0.58

00:04:08.540 Well, I think it's, I mean, again, everything we do in life is choice.

00:04:13.420 So everything we choose has consequences that come along with it.

00:04:16.820 So if I choose to live a really passionate life, that's going to mean I'm going to travel all the time.

00:04:20.560 I'm really likely choosing to have very little relationship with people unless they travel with me.

00:04:27.840 So, but at the same time, if I have somebody I really care about and I'm willing to give up some of those things, it's my choice.

00:04:35.080 They're not forcing me.

00:04:36.220 And so I think it's kind of a personal responsibility approach, I think, that, you know, I'm living a full and passionate life.

00:04:43.780 And maybe my partner that I've fallen in love with and I'm thinking I want to live my life with, she's not totally on board.

00:04:50.500 Well, that's up for discussion then because we evolve and change as we grow and mature.

00:04:58.080 So it still just comes back to marriage is choice and relationships are choice, whether it's day one or, you know, day 2051.

00:05:07.700 So, you know, compatibility kind of is a, that's a tough issue because you wouldn't be together if you weren't compatible.

00:05:16.100 I mean, you wouldn't be, you wouldn't last any length of time if you weren't compatible.

00:05:21.440 But it's the constant changing and evolving of the people involved that takes place that that's probably what trips most people up is they all of a sudden think, well, we're no longer compatible.

00:05:30.700 Well, yeah, you are.

00:05:32.400 You're just maybe in different places.

00:05:34.260 You got to still kind of work through some things.

00:05:36.040 Well, I mean, are there other things besides compatibility that you should look in a person when you're deciding whether to get married?

00:05:43.000 I mean, are there other attributes in the person that you should look for that are like, yeah, she would, she was, she would be good, a person, a good partner, good life partner, or maybe she's not ready to, maybe she's not the marrying type or the things like that.

00:05:56.460 Yeah, I guess you'd have to look out for the people that invest way too much in the relationship.

00:06:02.780 As far as, I mean, if we're going to go stereotypical for your audience, this art of manliness, if you find a woman that has given up everything for you, and it's just going to be at your beck and call at any time, you know, for a short term or, you know, I've been married almost 20 years now.

00:06:20.100 But for a weekend, that sounds great if my wife was just at my beck and call. 0.99

00:06:24.760 But after that, slavery gets really, really old and suffocating.

00:06:28.160 And so you want somebody that can push back at you, challenge you, be a, you know, be a little bit of an effort to keep up with and, and is stimulating.

00:06:38.220 And so if you find somebody that's just real, real clingy and dependent, that, that's kind of one of those, ah, what kind of life do they have on their own?

00:06:46.940 Because they're going to want to just lead, live their life through me.

00:06:50.680 And then the other is, I think we're probably going to find people, I mean, theory is going to state from my schooling that we meet and fall in love with people that have a similar upbringing in the sense, or a similar family dynamic.

00:07:03.800 And that doesn't mean, you know, I've, I'm from a divorced family, so I have to find somebody from a divorced family.

00:07:09.960 No, it's just, there's subtleties in the way we're raised in the relationships we have that make sense.

00:07:15.240 And that's part of what makes it to where we fall in love with those people, because they make sense.

00:07:20.220 If they're too far apart, they don't last.

00:07:23.140 That's one of those short term relationships where it's just nothing really clicks.

00:07:27.500 So here's a good question.

00:07:28.620 You're a marriage counselor, professional marriage counselor.

00:07:31.860 You have your PhD.

00:07:32.880 I mean, you've gone to schooling.

00:07:34.700 What are the biggest problems you've seen from, that you've learned about in your schooling and from your own practice that marriages have? 0.90

00:07:44.840 Well, the research is going to say that the common issues people fight about and have the most issues over is still money and sex.

00:07:55.740 That's, that's the, that's the two main fighting areas.

00:07:58.840 Um, where I, what I see this, my personal approach, and this is kind of what simple marriage brings to the table is my personal bias is the reason most couples come to see me is because they're actually too close.

00:08:11.920 And they are, they're, they're each fighting for their own space and their own identity.

00:08:16.960 And they don't realize that the, that they're too fused into what they view, you know, their, their spouse's response to things, or, you know, it's the walking on eggshells.

00:08:25.100 I can't ever do anything right.

00:08:26.080 Well, it's all based on how you perceive, they're perceiving what's going on rather than this is what I think, this is who I am and being solid enough to stand up and say so, and then deal with life as it comes up and, and push back from a spouse as it comes up.

00:08:39.820 Because we all have different ways of viewing things and just gender alone adds all kinds of fire there on differences because a woman's going to view things drastically different than a man does. 0.98

00:08:51.560 Yeah. We'll talk about that. So I guess, uh, I guess that's called differentiation. Is that what it's called?

00:08:55.620 And that's the psychobabble term that I believe in. Um, and it was started from a, uh, a theorist named Murray Bowen years ago when he was looking at the family system and how we differentiate through, through the generations.

00:09:08.920 And then it's been adopted and applied slightly differently in a marriage context, but it's the same foundation.

00:09:15.920 I, I, I term it as growing up. I mean, that's, that's just the way I think of it is marriage is designed, I believe, to help us grow up.

00:09:23.600 It's not designed for our happiness. It's not designed for joy and pleasure. We get that. But the main point of marriage is to help us be better people.

00:09:31.860 Awesome. And you see, you mentioned a kind of, you mentioned, you refer to something, your answer that people need to learn how to stand up for themselves.

00:09:37.660 So it sounds like assertiveness is an important skill to develop in order to have a successful marriage.

00:09:43.700 Well, I think that's a lifelong thing because anytime my wants and desires impact people I care about, I'm at that crucible, if you will, of, do I speak up and go for what I want, even though it may hurt them?

00:09:57.920 Or do I give in and don't ever say it because I just don't want to create any waves?

00:10:03.580 And that's that constant, you know, two choice dilemma, if you will, I guess, that I, I want to go out with the guys on the weekend, but I know my wife's going to want to spend some time with me.

00:10:13.520 Well, what do I do? What do I choose?

00:10:16.260 You know, and that's, and I think that's, that's a simplistic thought, but it's, it's a whole lot deeper when you, when it really plays out.

00:10:23.240 Definitely. So, okay. Let's talk about that. You referred to the differences between genders and how they approach marriage. 0.98

00:10:28.820 What are some of those differences on how men and women approach marriage?

00:10:35.900 Well, I mean, I, that's a, that's a deep, tough question.

00:10:42.120 I'm going to get you in trouble.

00:10:43.760 I appreciate that. I really think that marriage, you know, we're born into this idea of relationships.

00:10:51.300 That's, that's where we are. That's where we come from, obviously, is a relationship between a man and a woman. 1.00

00:10:56.000 If you just go biological relationship between a sperm and an egg.

00:10:59.640 And so we're designed for relationships.

00:11:02.940 I think that's where things are magnified. That's where things are improved.

00:11:05.500 That's where, you know, if you get to experience something and you experience it with someone else, it's so much more,

00:11:11.560 there's so much more depth and greater greatness associated with it.

00:11:15.700 But, but so fundamentally, I think there's a similarity in men and women in that we both are seeking appreciation and acceptance and a companionship.

00:11:26.760 And we don't want to be alone in this journey of life together.

00:11:31.460 Stereotypically, you know, men are looking for a sex partner.

00:11:35.980 I think that's a huge component if you go just stereotypically.

00:11:40.860 Women are looking for stability and security if you go very stereotypically. 1.00

00:11:46.220 And, and so they want someone that'll help provide and, and protect.

00:11:50.040 And, you know, if you just go back all the way through the generations, that's kind of how our ancestors were when they roamed and had to hunt and gather and, and nest and all the different things that started.

00:12:02.920 And that hasn't changed too much today, men still go out and have more of a tendency for that hunt and kill and provide.

00:12:12.440 And women still have more of a tendency for that nest and nurture and, and create some comfort. 1.00

00:12:19.380 And so not much has changed.

00:12:22.000 We just have, how it's done has changed.

00:12:25.560 Are there things that men do or maybe not do?

00:12:29.840 I mean, I'm talking generalities here, but that.

00:12:32.220 I think this whole conversation is going to have to be cased in the whole footnote of this is all generalities.

00:12:38.400 Yeah, exactly.

00:12:38.740 Because everyone's different.

00:12:39.760 Everyone's different.

00:12:40.200 And there's always going to be exceptions to this.

00:12:42.120 Yeah.

00:12:42.220 But I think fundamentally there's going to be similarities for what we're talking about.

00:12:46.620 Sure.

00:12:46.880 So, but I mean, with, with that caveat there, are there things that men that you've seen in your practice that men generally do or don't do that hurt or help the marriage?

00:12:55.220 Yeah, the biggest thing I've seen, and this is from my own life too, is there are far too many nice guys out there that they have forgotten their alpha, if you will, that not that they're the, the, the Lord of the house.

00:13:12.200 And, you know, head of the, I believe they're head of the household.

00:13:14.900 That's a spiritual concept that I, I hold dear, but it's still one of those that there's so much more to being kind of a, a full grown man, as opposed to a guy that tiptoes around and tries to just make his wife happy.

00:13:31.740 I mean, that, that adage, I know, you know, I've known you for a while, Brett, so I know you've had an interview with Dr. Robert Glover at one point with one of your podcasts and he kind of, I don't know, coined the phrase nice guy, but helped kind of uncover it quite a bit.

00:13:46.120 And, you know, I think that's one of the big things that men struggle with is this, this whole, they kind of have lost their identity for the sake of their family and their wife.

00:13:55.780 And then she's sitting there looking to him to get some sort of a course or direction for life as a, as a whole.

00:14:03.620 Cause I think women want to be called up into a story that's bigger than themselves. 1.00

00:14:09.340 And so if he's not providing that, then she's going to sit there and be unknowingly angry as to why.

00:14:17.780 And, and that's kind of, that's a fuel for a lot of frustration when sometimes if the king will just show up and take charge or the captain his ship, everything kind of falls right in line.

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00:15:40.600 And now back to the show.

00:15:41.780 So what do you tell those kind of guys?

00:15:44.000 I mean, what do you tell these guys to start doing that you see these kind of nice guys?

00:15:48.440 I mean, how do they get out of that or kind of kick the nice guy syndrome to the curb?

00:15:53.940 Well, I think it's a long process.

00:15:57.320 I mean, it's one I've been going through for a while because I was a classic nice guy for the first part of my marriage for sure.

00:16:04.960 So a lot of it is just this whole, okay, looking at what the attachments to outcomes they have, you know, what are they really trying to get and get more in line with how could I really get that in a more authentic, grown-up way rather than manipulate it?

00:16:20.860 I mean, think of it this way.

00:16:22.540 The idea of, you know, a man, I could have a fight with my wife over something because maybe I did something wrong and I didn't get reservations for some trip that we had planned.

00:16:34.180 And I procrastinated, procrastinated.

00:16:36.820 And then when I finally called up to try to get them, the hotel or the resort was booked.

00:16:41.600 And so I come up with this little subtle, oh, well, there was a convention and, you know, that's my way out.

00:16:47.620 So I'm not the bad guy then.

00:16:50.320 But then so we have a little fight because she's disappointed.

00:16:53.240 But I'll then try to soothe her because I'm thinking if she's not in a good mood, there's no chance we're having sex tonight.

00:16:58.540 So I have to figure out how.

00:17:00.440 So it's all this manipulation and covert contract kind of stuff.

00:17:04.300 And so the best way to kick a nice guy to the curb in the sense of in your own life is just be brutally honest.

00:17:13.320 You know, just start confronting things head on and just saying what you think.

00:17:17.660 And it's not a personal attack.

00:17:18.900 It's just what you think.

00:17:20.520 And then you just start seeing what happens as she responds and then you respond.

00:17:24.920 And through it all, I think we both grow.

00:17:27.940 Yeah, I imagine it's a process that goes both ways because I'm sure relationships were like the guys,

00:17:33.480 like the nice guy, walks on eggshells.

00:17:36.180 He's probably conditioned his wife in a lot of ways to like respond to that. 0.78

00:17:40.500 And so when the guy finally steps up and, you know, says what he thinks, there's probably some pushback.

00:17:46.280 Yeah, and I've heard this case and the whole concept of a captain and a first officer mantra.

00:17:54.560 And I think that fits pretty well because at the end of the day, you know, if something major goes wrong, you know,

00:18:01.800 if someone broke into my home and all four of my family's here, I have two little kids and then my wife and I,

00:18:07.880 it's really on me to be the first responder to deal with that.

00:18:12.880 It's not my wife's responsibility. 1.00

00:18:14.200 She's not bigger than me.

00:18:16.020 She's not stronger than me.

00:18:17.120 That's kind of what, that's my role.

00:18:18.500 But if I'm not here, it's hers. 0.71

00:18:21.460 She assumes that responsibility.

00:18:23.380 And I think lots of marriages and lots of women I've talked to really like this idea of they like being kind of a first officer

00:18:29.560 where they're not in charge of everything, but they have a say in everything.

00:18:35.660 Sure, that's an interesting concept.

00:18:38.320 So what are some things that a guy can do now?

00:18:42.500 If there's a man who's married, what are some little things that he can do now to improve or strengthen that marriage?

00:18:49.420 And I think you've mentioned, we've mentioned one.

00:18:51.120 If you're a nice guy, quit being the nice guy.

00:18:53.960 Assert yourself. 0.99

00:18:55.380 You don't have to be a jerk about it. 1.00

00:18:56.480 A lot of people think if in order to be assertive, you've got to be a jerk. 1.00

00:18:59.280 No, you've just got to just stand up for yourself, say what you think. 0.99

00:19:02.520 Right, just speak up.

00:19:03.680 Yeah, but besides that, what are some other things that guys can do to improve their marriage?

00:19:07.140 Well, I think one we've also alluded to is just up your own honesty.

00:19:12.140 And this starts with the honesty to yourself where you kind of own your own stuff and you own your own mistakes.

00:19:17.720 But then you also start to be honest about what you think is going on in your life and in your family and in your relationship.

00:19:25.020 And the other is just along the lines of speaking up for what you want rather than a classic nice guy is, hey, let's go to dinner.

00:19:32.060 Oh, okay.

00:19:33.300 Well, where do you want to go?

00:19:34.720 And you don't have a plan at all.

00:19:37.560 And, you know, my wife hates that because she lives – well, she works in a very high-stress corporate world.

00:19:44.680 And when she comes home, she doesn't want to keep making decisions.

00:19:47.240 She's been doing that all day. 0.64

00:19:48.920 She wants me – if I ask her to dinner, I need to have a plan.

00:19:51.880 You know, I've got to have it all set out.

00:19:53.840 And if she doesn't like it, she'll speak up and say so, and I can adjust if I want or then we just navigate if it occurs.

00:20:00.700 So have a plan.

00:20:02.980 And then the other I think of is just keep pursuing your wife. 0.93

00:20:06.620 Keep pursuing your woman, if you will, to let her know the role she is to you in your life, the importance that she is in your life.

00:20:14.180 That, you know, she's not just your wife.

00:20:16.080 She's not just your kids' moms.

00:20:18.480 She's your lover.

00:20:20.500 She's a friend.

00:20:21.640 She's a companion.

00:20:24.100 She's exotic and erotic and all these different components of her.

00:20:27.140 Well, keep pursuing that because it's a never-ending kind of quest to learn her more.

00:20:33.740 For sure.

00:20:34.820 Is there any, like, common advice, like, you know, common marital advice that, you know, you see, like, on Oprah or you read in Cosmo or whatever that actually does more harm than good?

00:20:47.300 Okay.

00:20:47.720 Yeah, I'm going to step in it here.

00:20:50.960 Yeah, I think there's a lot of the stuff that's out there in the marriage world is Band-Aid solutions.

00:20:58.920 It's, you know, some of the bigger-named ones are the his needs, her needs, the love languages, those things.

00:21:05.320 Like, on base value, they're good.

00:21:10.580 But if I start to try to do different things to accommodate to my wife's needs at the detriment of my own needs, I'm just creating fusion again. 0.72

00:21:19.240 I'm not standing up for me.

00:21:21.320 I'm just catering to her.

00:21:22.680 And that's the balancing act.

00:21:24.240 So I think a lot of the stuff that's out there of, well, you just need to learn how to listen better.

00:21:29.200 You just need, you know, there's a big one, Brett.

00:21:30.940 But there's so many couples come in and say, we have trouble communicating. 1.00

00:21:37.120 I mean, that's just a comment.

00:21:38.080 I imagine you've been married a while.

00:21:39.580 You probably have fallen victim to that thought, too.

00:21:41.900 We just don't understand each other.

00:21:43.880 Well, my question to anybody that brings that up is, really?

00:21:48.280 So when they say something, do you get upset?

00:21:50.900 Well, yeah.

00:21:51.480 Well, then you're communicating just fine because you're understanding it.

00:21:55.420 And if you didn't communicate well, you wouldn't get pissed off.

00:21:57.880 So it's more about I don't like when another person I really care about has something to say that I don't like or I can't handle.

00:22:06.440 So I can't handle the message.

00:22:07.900 So those communication training things are great.

00:22:11.940 But when, you know, emotions get charged, we usually just chuck that right out the window, all that learning, and we just react.

00:22:19.400 So most of the stuff that I've seen is real subtle fusion building, which in the long run, I think harms marriages more than anything.

00:22:30.520 Oh, that's the real answer.

00:22:32.200 Yeah, you totally stepped in it, man.

00:22:33.720 You're going to get like lots of comments on your blog saying you're giving bad advice.

00:22:37.100 I might just do that, but that's all right.

00:22:38.820 Maybe it's a way to present a different way to look at things.

00:22:42.600 I don't know.

00:22:42.900 There you go.

00:22:43.520 But yeah, I think you're right.

00:22:44.860 There's a lot of times where like, yeah, I'll hear my wife, and I just don't like what she's saying.

00:22:50.020 It's like I think a lot of people have a hard time dealing with that, right?

00:22:53.480 I think that you really hit on something.

00:22:55.100 Like, yeah, this person—

00:22:55.900 I mean, we all have a hard time dealing with people that don't agree with us.

00:23:00.680 Yeah, but especially when you think that person should be on—that happens with my wife and I a lot.

00:23:04.660 Like a lot of times we assume like the other knows what the other's thinking.

00:23:10.260 Oh, yeah.

00:23:10.880 You know, you're like, oh, of course—

00:23:12.400 I thought we were in this together.

00:23:13.700 Yeah, yeah.

00:23:14.300 Or like, oh, you know, we're so alike.

00:23:16.220 Of course you were supposed to think that.

00:23:17.600 Like, that's what happens to me a lot.

00:23:18.880 Like, I won't do something or say something because I thought my wife had already done or taken care of that.

00:23:26.580 But the thing was I was thinking that myself.

00:23:29.520 So I was like, oh, yeah, of course I got done.

00:23:31.960 Right.

00:23:33.140 There's one of my foibles.

00:23:36.500 So let's talk about this.

00:23:37.780 You mentioned it a little bit about growing up in marriage, and you talk a lot about that in your books and on your blog.

00:23:44.560 What do you mean by that, growing up in marriage?

00:23:47.860 Well, I think it's—you know, it could be phrased—you know, the psychobabble term we alluded to earlier is called differentiation, which is just a better way—well, let me phrase it all this way.

00:23:59.340 This is a little convoluted, but maybe I can make it pretty simple.

00:24:02.120 There's two different processes, I think, that are going on in every relationship.

00:24:06.420 One is an internal, which is our thinking and our feeling.

00:24:09.920 Some people are more thinkers.

00:24:11.120 Some people are more feelers.

00:24:12.960 Learning how to grow up is allowing you to be able to use both to your benefit rather than be dominated by one.

00:24:19.780 You know, because lots of times when we get upset about something, we'll retreat into our brain and just analyze it and analyze it.

00:24:25.060 Or we just become this emotional eruption, and we just react, and then we just pick up the pieces later.

00:24:31.440 At the same time, on an external, in a systems world, there's this togetherness and separateness where we want to be together with people and all that that provides, but we also still want to be our own person.

00:24:43.060 And growing up allows you to fluidly fluctuate back and forth between those and not be dominated by either, where you're constantly seeking togetherness or constantly seeking separateness.

00:24:55.280 You're kind of recognizing that more in yourself.

00:24:57.840 And so to me, growing up is just better being able to handle life on life's terms and not be dominated by any of it, but choose what we want.

00:25:08.940 That's great advice.

00:25:09.480 One thing I've learned about marriage, I've been married, I think it's eight, coming up on eight years, I feel like a lot of young people avoid marriage because they feel like they have to have it figured out before they go into it.

00:25:23.620 They have to know exactly how to have a solid relationship.

00:25:28.100 But honestly, you kind of learn, it's like on-the-job training, I feel like.

00:25:33.220 That's exactly what it is.

00:25:34.980 Nothing prepares you for marriage, but marriage.

00:25:36.840 Exactly.

00:25:37.320 I mean, you can do, and I really do encourage people to do some premarital stuff, you know, go through the Preparing Rich, which is a great inventory, find a counselor or a pastor in your area that's trained.

00:25:49.700 Because what that'll do is point out the big areas that you're going to have problems with.

00:25:53.820 But you're going to have problems with everybody.

00:25:56.540 It doesn't matter who is.

00:25:57.680 You made a comment of the soulmate.

00:25:59.580 Yeah, you still have hurdles at some point.

00:26:02.380 And so you can at least know going in, okay, these are the issues we're going to be fighting about 10 years from now.

00:26:08.680 Okay, I'm cool with that.

00:26:10.960 And then maybe there's some tools I can do to lessen it a little bit.

00:26:14.160 But you really don't get prepared for marriage until you're into it.

00:26:18.100 Yeah.

00:26:18.300 And I also like the idea of growing up in marriage.

00:26:20.660 I really feel like marriage has helped me grow up because, like you mentioned, it forces you to quit thinking about yourself only.

00:26:28.820 Right.

00:26:28.940 You have to start thinking about, okay, there's a world beyond myself, right?

00:26:32.040 Like the psychobabble, right?

00:26:33.720 That toddlers and children, they have this huge ego, right?

00:26:37.600 The world revolves around them.

00:26:38.800 But marriage really does sort of bash you on the side of the head.

00:26:42.000 Like, no, there's something else besides you.

00:26:44.460 Right.

00:26:45.420 And there's great things that come from it.

00:26:47.900 But you have to learn how to still be you and choose and go after that, knowing you can't necessarily control it.

00:26:55.660 But you can present something that's more likely to get chosen.

00:27:01.240 And, you know, it's ongoing.

00:27:02.900 We could talk about this for a long, long time, I think.

00:27:05.860 But marriage is just designed to help us be better.

00:27:10.360 Yeah, totally agree with that.

00:27:11.480 All right, so, Corey, I know there's probably some guys out there who might be married and are having some troubles with their marriage.

00:27:17.840 At what point should a couple consider therapy?

00:27:22.340 Is there, like, a moment that happens in the relationship, like, yeah, immediately you should go therapy?

00:27:27.960 Or, I mean, how do you know if that's right for you?

00:27:30.780 Well, I mean, obviously I'm very biased for therapy.

00:27:37.340 I think everybody benefits from therapy because we're all born in families and every family is dysfunctional.

00:27:43.060 So we all get benefit from learning how to deal with life a little better.

00:27:48.740 Research shows that most couples still wait six years from when a problem has become a problem before they go to therapy.

00:27:58.360 And by then, most of the couples that I see that have waited that long, I'm doing a whole lot more divorce kind of work than I am marriage work.

00:28:06.580 And that's really frustrating because one person's already checked out and there's really nothing I can do at that point.

00:28:13.280 So, you know, anytime there's a problem, I would recommend first and foremost open up to somebody of the same gender.

00:28:21.700 You know, so guys open up to another guy.

00:28:24.520 You don't share misery with another woman.

00:28:27.620 That's just a slippery slope to, oh, well, she understands me so much better.

00:28:32.000 No, she doesn't.

00:28:32.680 She just doesn't know you as well yet.

00:28:34.780 So, you know, open up because what you find, I think, and I don't know if you've had this experience, Brett,

00:28:40.680 but I know when I've had the courage to speak up to a friend about something that's been going on in my marriage,

00:28:46.440 lo and behold, is going on in theirs too, you know, or they've been there before or, you know,

00:28:51.840 and so it's like you realize I'm not alone in this.

00:28:54.980 You know, there's other people that understand.

00:28:56.760 And so from that kind of a counsel, you can then, you probably need to go see somebody.

00:29:01.680 So if you have any kind of an addiction thing, that's a big flag for professional help is good.

00:29:06.940 Any kind of an affair, you know, emotional, physical, or otherwise, that's good to get help from somebody that can be objective

00:29:15.240 and in favor of the relationship.

00:29:18.080 And then the other is just kind of you've got to just trust your gut, you know.

00:29:21.480 And then I would also say this to the guys, and I know some women follow along and listen to this too,

00:29:27.780 but if you want to go to therapy and your spouse or your significant other doesn't, then go.

00:29:33.400 Go on your own.

00:29:34.140 You can change the system by just changing you.

00:29:38.000 You don't have to both be there.

00:29:40.100 Very good stuff.

00:29:40.660 Well, Corey, this has been a very fascinating discussion.

00:29:42.740 Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us.

00:29:45.680 Absolutely.

00:29:46.220 It's been fun.

00:29:51.400 Our guest today was Dr. Corey Allen.

00:29:54.000 Corey is a marriage and family therapist, and he blogs at simplemarriage.net.

00:30:04.140 That wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:30:07.880 For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com.

00:30:13.420 And until next time, stay manly.

00:30:16.480 Thank you.

00:30:24.220 Thank you.

00:30:25.760 Thank you.

00:30:26.760 Thank you.

00:30:27.440 Thank you.

00:30:28.980 You

The Art of Manliness - April 04, 2014

Episode #43： Simple Marriage With Dr. Corey Allan

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