Dr. Corey Allen is a family and marriage therapist, has a PhD in family therapy, and runs the website SimpleMarriage.net. In this episode, Dr. Allen talks about what you can do to improve your marriage if you re thinking about getting married, and what you should do to prepare for a successful marriage.
00:04:36.220And so I think it's kind of a personal responsibility approach, I think, that, you know, I'm living a full and passionate life.
00:04:43.780And maybe my partner that I've fallen in love with and I'm thinking I want to live my life with, she's not totally on board.
00:04:50.500Well, that's up for discussion then because we evolve and change as we grow and mature.
00:04:58.080So it still just comes back to marriage is choice and relationships are choice, whether it's day one or, you know, day 2051.
00:05:07.700So, you know, compatibility kind of is a, that's a tough issue because you wouldn't be together if you weren't compatible.
00:05:16.100I mean, you wouldn't be, you wouldn't last any length of time if you weren't compatible.
00:05:21.440But it's the constant changing and evolving of the people involved that takes place that that's probably what trips most people up is they all of a sudden think, well, we're no longer compatible.
00:05:32.400You're just maybe in different places.
00:05:34.260You got to still kind of work through some things.
00:05:36.040Well, I mean, are there other things besides compatibility that you should look in a person when you're deciding whether to get married?
00:05:43.000I mean, are there other attributes in the person that you should look for that are like, yeah, she would, she was, she would be good, a person, a good partner, good life partner, or maybe she's not ready to, maybe she's not the marrying type or the things like that.
00:05:56.460Yeah, I guess you'd have to look out for the people that invest way too much in the relationship.
00:06:02.780As far as, I mean, if we're going to go stereotypical for your audience, this art of manliness, if you find a woman that has given up everything for you, and it's just going to be at your beck and call at any time, you know, for a short term or, you know, I've been married almost 20 years now.
00:06:20.100But for a weekend, that sounds great if my wife was just at my beck and call.
00:06:24.760But after that, slavery gets really, really old and suffocating.
00:06:28.160And so you want somebody that can push back at you, challenge you, be a, you know, be a little bit of an effort to keep up with and, and is stimulating.
00:06:38.220And so if you find somebody that's just real, real clingy and dependent, that, that's kind of one of those, ah, what kind of life do they have on their own?
00:06:46.940Because they're going to want to just lead, live their life through me.
00:06:50.680And then the other is, I think we're probably going to find people, I mean, theory is going to state from my schooling that we meet and fall in love with people that have a similar upbringing in the sense, or a similar family dynamic.
00:07:03.800And that doesn't mean, you know, I've, I'm from a divorced family, so I have to find somebody from a divorced family.
00:07:09.960No, it's just, there's subtleties in the way we're raised in the relationships we have that make sense.
00:07:15.240And that's part of what makes it to where we fall in love with those people, because they make sense.
00:07:20.220If they're too far apart, they don't last.
00:07:23.140That's one of those short term relationships where it's just nothing really clicks.
00:07:34.700What are the biggest problems you've seen from, that you've learned about in your schooling and from your own practice that marriages have?
00:07:44.840Well, the research is going to say that the common issues people fight about and have the most issues over is still money and sex.
00:07:55.740That's, that's the, that's the two main fighting areas.
00:07:58.840Um, where I, what I see this, my personal approach, and this is kind of what simple marriage brings to the table is my personal bias is the reason most couples come to see me is because they're actually too close.
00:08:11.920And they are, they're, they're each fighting for their own space and their own identity.
00:08:16.960And they don't realize that the, that they're too fused into what they view, you know, their, their spouse's response to things, or, you know, it's the walking on eggshells.
00:08:26.080Well, it's all based on how you perceive, they're perceiving what's going on rather than this is what I think, this is who I am and being solid enough to stand up and say so, and then deal with life as it comes up and, and push back from a spouse as it comes up.
00:08:39.820Because we all have different ways of viewing things and just gender alone adds all kinds of fire there on differences because a woman's going to view things drastically different than a man does.
00:08:51.560Yeah. We'll talk about that. So I guess, uh, I guess that's called differentiation. Is that what it's called?
00:08:55.620And that's the psychobabble term that I believe in. Um, and it was started from a, uh, a theorist named Murray Bowen years ago when he was looking at the family system and how we differentiate through, through the generations.
00:09:08.920And then it's been adopted and applied slightly differently in a marriage context, but it's the same foundation.
00:09:15.920I, I, I term it as growing up. I mean, that's, that's just the way I think of it is marriage is designed, I believe, to help us grow up.
00:09:23.600It's not designed for our happiness. It's not designed for joy and pleasure. We get that. But the main point of marriage is to help us be better people.
00:09:31.860Awesome. And you see, you mentioned a kind of, you mentioned, you refer to something, your answer that people need to learn how to stand up for themselves.
00:09:37.660So it sounds like assertiveness is an important skill to develop in order to have a successful marriage.
00:09:43.700Well, I think that's a lifelong thing because anytime my wants and desires impact people I care about, I'm at that crucible, if you will, of, do I speak up and go for what I want, even though it may hurt them?
00:09:57.920Or do I give in and don't ever say it because I just don't want to create any waves?
00:10:03.580And that's that constant, you know, two choice dilemma, if you will, I guess, that I, I want to go out with the guys on the weekend, but I know my wife's going to want to spend some time with me.
00:10:16.260You know, and that's, and I think that's, that's a simplistic thought, but it's, it's a whole lot deeper when you, when it really plays out.
00:10:23.240Definitely. So, okay. Let's talk about that. You referred to the differences between genders and how they approach marriage.
00:10:28.820What are some of those differences on how men and women approach marriage?
00:10:35.900Well, I mean, I, that's a, that's a deep, tough question.
00:10:43.760I appreciate that. I really think that marriage, you know, we're born into this idea of relationships.
00:10:51.300That's, that's where we are. That's where we come from, obviously, is a relationship between a man and a woman.
00:10:56.000If you just go biological relationship between a sperm and an egg.
00:10:59.640And so we're designed for relationships.
00:11:02.940I think that's where things are magnified. That's where things are improved.
00:11:05.500That's where, you know, if you get to experience something and you experience it with someone else, it's so much more,
00:11:11.560there's so much more depth and greater greatness associated with it.
00:11:15.700But, but so fundamentally, I think there's a similarity in men and women in that we both are seeking appreciation and acceptance and a companionship.
00:11:26.760And we don't want to be alone in this journey of life together.
00:11:31.460Stereotypically, you know, men are looking for a sex partner.
00:11:35.980I think that's a huge component if you go just stereotypically.
00:11:40.860Women are looking for stability and security if you go very stereotypically.
00:11:46.220And, and so they want someone that'll help provide and, and protect.
00:11:50.040And, you know, if you just go back all the way through the generations, that's kind of how our ancestors were when they roamed and had to hunt and gather and, and nest and all the different things that started.
00:12:02.920And that hasn't changed too much today, men still go out and have more of a tendency for that hunt and kill and provide.
00:12:12.440And women still have more of a tendency for that nest and nurture and, and create some comfort.
00:12:46.880So, but I mean, with, with that caveat there, are there things that men that you've seen in your practice that men generally do or don't do that hurt or help the marriage?
00:12:55.220Yeah, the biggest thing I've seen, and this is from my own life too, is there are far too many nice guys out there that they have forgotten their alpha, if you will, that not that they're the, the, the Lord of the house.
00:13:12.200And, you know, head of the, I believe they're head of the household.
00:13:14.900That's a spiritual concept that I, I hold dear, but it's still one of those that there's so much more to being kind of a, a full grown man, as opposed to a guy that tiptoes around and tries to just make his wife happy.
00:13:31.740I mean, that, that adage, I know, you know, I've known you for a while, Brett, so I know you've had an interview with Dr. Robert Glover at one point with one of your podcasts and he kind of, I don't know, coined the phrase nice guy, but helped kind of uncover it quite a bit.
00:13:46.120And, you know, I think that's one of the big things that men struggle with is this, this whole, they kind of have lost their identity for the sake of their family and their wife.
00:13:55.780And then she's sitting there looking to him to get some sort of a course or direction for life as a, as a whole.
00:14:03.620Cause I think women want to be called up into a story that's bigger than themselves.
00:14:09.340And so if he's not providing that, then she's going to sit there and be unknowingly angry as to why.
00:14:17.780And, and that's kind of, that's a fuel for a lot of frustration when sometimes if the king will just show up and take charge or the captain his ship, everything kind of falls right in line.
00:14:31.960The Strenuous Life is an online platform that we created to help you put into action the things we've been writing about on theartofmanliness.com and talking about on the podcast for the past 10 years.
00:15:57.320I mean, it's one I've been going through for a while because I was a classic nice guy for the first part of my marriage for sure.
00:16:04.960So a lot of it is just this whole, okay, looking at what the attachments to outcomes they have, you know, what are they really trying to get and get more in line with how could I really get that in a more authentic, grown-up way rather than manipulate it?
00:16:22.540The idea of, you know, a man, I could have a fight with my wife over something because maybe I did something wrong and I didn't get reservations for some trip that we had planned.
00:20:34.820Is there any, like, common advice, like, you know, common marital advice that, you know, you see, like, on Oprah or you read in Cosmo or whatever that actually does more harm than good?
00:21:10.580But if I start to try to do different things to accommodate to my wife's needs at the detriment of my own needs, I'm just creating fusion again.
00:23:37.780You mentioned it a little bit about growing up in marriage, and you talk a lot about that in your books and on your blog.
00:23:44.560What do you mean by that, growing up in marriage?
00:23:47.860Well, I think it's—you know, it could be phrased—you know, the psychobabble term we alluded to earlier is called differentiation, which is just a better way—well, let me phrase it all this way.
00:23:59.340This is a little convoluted, but maybe I can make it pretty simple.
00:24:02.120There's two different processes, I think, that are going on in every relationship.
00:24:06.420One is an internal, which is our thinking and our feeling.
00:24:12.960Learning how to grow up is allowing you to be able to use both to your benefit rather than be dominated by one.
00:24:19.780You know, because lots of times when we get upset about something, we'll retreat into our brain and just analyze it and analyze it.
00:24:25.060Or we just become this emotional eruption, and we just react, and then we just pick up the pieces later.
00:24:31.440At the same time, on an external, in a systems world, there's this togetherness and separateness where we want to be together with people and all that that provides, but we also still want to be our own person.
00:24:43.060And growing up allows you to fluidly fluctuate back and forth between those and not be dominated by either, where you're constantly seeking togetherness or constantly seeking separateness.
00:24:55.280You're kind of recognizing that more in yourself.
00:24:57.840And so to me, growing up is just better being able to handle life on life's terms and not be dominated by any of it, but choose what we want.
00:25:09.480One thing I've learned about marriage, I've been married, I think it's eight, coming up on eight years, I feel like a lot of young people avoid marriage because they feel like they have to have it figured out before they go into it.
00:25:23.620They have to know exactly how to have a solid relationship.
00:25:28.100But honestly, you kind of learn, it's like on-the-job training, I feel like.
00:25:37.320I mean, you can do, and I really do encourage people to do some premarital stuff, you know, go through the Preparing Rich, which is a great inventory, find a counselor or a pastor in your area that's trained.
00:25:49.700Because what that'll do is point out the big areas that you're going to have problems with.
00:25:53.820But you're going to have problems with everybody.
00:27:11.480All right, so, Corey, I know there's probably some guys out there who might be married and are having some troubles with their marriage.
00:27:17.840At what point should a couple consider therapy?
00:27:22.340Is there, like, a moment that happens in the relationship, like, yeah, immediately you should go therapy?
00:27:27.960Or, I mean, how do you know if that's right for you?
00:27:30.780Well, I mean, obviously I'm very biased for therapy.
00:27:37.340I think everybody benefits from therapy because we're all born in families and every family is dysfunctional.
00:27:43.060So we all get benefit from learning how to deal with life a little better.
00:27:48.740Research shows that most couples still wait six years from when a problem has become a problem before they go to therapy.
00:27:58.360And by then, most of the couples that I see that have waited that long, I'm doing a whole lot more divorce kind of work than I am marriage work.
00:28:06.580And that's really frustrating because one person's already checked out and there's really nothing I can do at that point.
00:28:13.280So, you know, anytime there's a problem, I would recommend first and foremost open up to somebody of the same gender.
00:28:21.700You know, so guys open up to another guy.
00:28:24.520You don't share misery with another woman.
00:28:27.620That's just a slippery slope to, oh, well, she understands me so much better.