The Art of Manliness - Episode #45： Mating Intelligence With Drs. Glen Geher And Scott Barry Kaufman

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00:00:32.000 code art15 to save 15% off your first purchase. Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition

00:00:52.920 of the Art of Manliness podcast. Well, today we're talking mating intelligence. What is mating

00:00:58.980 intelligence, you might be asking? Well, it's basically the skills and know-how that you need

00:01:03.240 to have in order to successfully navigate romantic relationships. And our guests today have recently

00:01:10.480 published a book on this topic. They are two psychologists, Dr. Glenn Geer and Dr. Scott

00:01:15.540 Barry Kaufman. And their book is Mating Intelligence Unleashed, The Role of the Mind in Sex, Dating and

00:01:21.540 Love. And we're going to talk about the research that they highlight in their book that shows what

00:01:27.660 men and women find attractive in one another and what you can do to be more attractive to someone

00:01:35.020 of the opposite sex. And the surprising thing is there's more to it than physical attractiveness. 0.99

00:01:42.240 We're going to talk about those things. So listen in. All right, Scott, Glenn, thank you so much for

00:01:46.520 joining us on the Art of Manliness podcast. Yeah, thanks for having us, Brett.

00:01:51.880 Yeah. All right. So, Glenn, this question's for you. Let's start off, what is mating intelligence?

00:01:58.760 Because I've heard of, you know, emotional intelligence, and then I'm starting to hear

00:02:03.040 about social intelligence and the different skills and knowledges that constitute that sort of

00:02:08.220 intelligence. But what skills and knowledge constitute mating intelligence?

00:02:12.400 Okay, well, I think it's a very good beginning question. It really speaks to sort of what we're

00:02:17.120 doing with this book and what the idea is about. When you look at the history of intelligence

00:02:22.020 research, for a long time, it was really just about cognitive processes. So things like math

00:02:27.660 ability, verbal abilities, reading comprehension, complex problem solving kinds of things. And at some

00:02:35.580 point, I'd say maybe in about the 60s or 70s, people started looking at different kinds of

00:02:41.640 intelligence. There's a lot more to who we are than just our cognitive processing.

00:02:47.880 So there was a movement by several folks at that point. And when I was a graduate student at

00:02:53.280 University of New Hampshire in the 1990s, I worked with Jack Mayer. Jack, along with Peter Salovey,

00:02:58.240 who's at Yale, created the idea of emotional intelligence, which became a huge idea in psychology,

00:03:05.640 really captivated people, partly because it's a great idea, partly because it underscores how

00:03:11.420 important emotions are for us, and partly because it made people who were good people who were good

00:03:16.600 at doing stuff, but never did well on intelligence tests say, you know what, maybe it doesn't matter

00:03:20.920 that much. Maybe my emotional intelligence or my ability to get along with others is really the

00:03:26.600 core element of my success. Maybe that's what I should be cultivating in myself.

00:03:31.400 So I did research on that with Jack years ago, and then I got very interested in evolutionary psychology

00:03:38.140 and relationships from an evolutionary perspective, which we call human mating, pretty much looking at

00:03:43.840 relationships the way that a biologist would look at mating behaviors in the natural world in non-human

00:03:50.360 species. And research on human mating has really become huge. So we understand what are the causes of

00:03:56.600 physical attractiveness, what are the causes of jealousy, what are the causes of success in

00:04:02.460 relationships, of non-success, what's the difference between short versus long-term mating, all these

00:04:08.120 different kinds of things. And I got very immersed in that field and suddenly realized that the same

00:04:13.280 insight Mare and Salovey had early on about emotional research not being connected with intelligence,

00:04:20.300 I had the same insight essentially about mating, that mating psychology is this juggernaut in

00:04:25.340 psychologies, this huge body of research, as is intelligence. And no one had ever really connected

00:04:30.800 these before. So I worked with Jeffrey Miller, who's a psychologist at the University of New Mexico,

00:04:35.480 to do an edited book on this topic. And we started seeing that it was just fertile ground.

00:04:42.720 This was a great area for if you're a young psychological researcher, there's so much that you can look at.

00:04:48.580 And then I found Scott pretty soon in the process, and we started developing ways to measure mating

00:04:53.480 intelligence. But to get back to your specific question of what is mating intelligence, it's essentially the

00:04:58.900 cognitive processes that relate to relationship and mating psychology. So when we're thinking about

00:05:05.700 ourselves in a mating context, how do you rate your own mate value? How do you assess the mate values of

00:05:11.160 others? How do you detect honesty versus deception in the mating domain? And all these kinds of cognitive

00:05:17.820 decisions comprise what we call mating intelligence. Awesome. So Scott, Glenn kind of touched on this a little bit,

00:05:24.320 on some of the sciences that are involved with mating intelligence, or the research. Can you talk a little bit more

00:05:30.880 about the research that's involved, or the branches of science that's involved, that you guys look to for your insights

00:05:37.080 that you talked about in mating intelligence? Sure. I think that, so Glenn and I met each other in about 2005, 2006,

00:05:45.480 and I think that our research interests have complemented each other well, and made this book and this construct

00:05:51.980 all the richer, because I was primarily interested in creativity and intelligence, traditionally defined,

00:05:58.860 you know, as this IQ aspect. What is that? But also I was interested in artistic displays of creativity

00:06:05.120 and all the various ways that we can display our creativity. And what I heard about this mating time

00:06:10.440 construct, and then I read The Mating Mind by Jeffrey Miller, which is a really key book that I

00:06:15.140 recommend to all your readers, if they're interested in this topic, in addition to reading our book,

00:06:20.760 is that these displays of creativity and displays of our personality, we're constantly signaling to

00:06:27.420 others who we are, and our underlying traits and underlining genes, which is all very important

00:06:34.580 from an ultimate Darwinian reproductive perspective. What are we, what's the likelihood we're going to pass on

00:06:41.060 some of these traits to our children? What's the extent to which that's going to allow them to survive

00:06:45.620 and, um, and, and, um, attract needs themselves? So in, in doing that, you can cast, and understand

00:06:51.800 what those, quote, sexy traits are, you can cast a very broad net that goes far beyond physical

00:06:57.580 attraction to things like creativity, humor, um, personality. We have different lots of dimensions of

00:07:04.260 personality, and each one of them impacts on meeting success. Um, to, um, what we discussed in the book

00:07:10.280 called the life history strategy, which is also really, um, it really, um, important and relevant,

00:07:15.220 that is to the extent to which you with, sort of the fast life, um, are you very impulsive? Do you have,

00:07:20.680 are you interested in, uh, quality over quality of meats? Um, or do you a little more the slow

00:07:25.980 life? Um, and these are actual biological sources of variation that you see in lots of other

00:07:30.960 animals. It's very, um, uh, there's a lot of continuity with, um, other species and things. It's all

00:07:36.060 these things impact and, um, all these aspects of psychology, uh, play a role in understanding

00:07:40.540 main intelligence. Awesome. So, so it sounds like there's biology you're looking to, you're looking

00:07:46.040 to, uh, psychology and then evolutionary psychology. Can you guys, I mean, I'm sure for some of my

00:07:53.260 readers, we have never heard of evolutionary psychology. Can you guys kind of give the

00:07:56.200 cliff notes a version of that? I mean, what, what, I mean, I think a lot of people are familiar

00:07:59.780 with biological, um, yeah, but not psychology. Yeah. Yeah. Um, the, uh, I've been, been teaching

00:08:09.280 a course titled evolutionary psychology here at SUNY New Paltz for, for gosh, probably about

00:08:14.660 a decade now. Um, and I think you're right that a lot of people don't really know what

00:08:18.980 it is. And the phrase is, is something that doesn't necessarily, um, capture what it is to

00:08:25.120 people when they hear about it. So I guess I'll give you the cliff notes version. It, the

00:08:29.760 way that I put it, the short version is that evolutionary psychology is the idea that human

00:08:34.540 behavior is part of the natural world. Um, so that's kind of just to think about a very

00:08:39.260 brief version. What is an evolutionary psychologist? Someone who's studying human behavior, understanding

00:08:44.760 that human behavior, just like the human body, just like the bodies of other organisms and

00:08:49.680 other animals, all result from Darwinian forces such as sexual and natural selection. And when

00:08:56.680 we think about those basic Darwinian forces, what they do is they facilitate replication

00:09:02.380 of certain forms. Um, so a very short version of evolution is that evolution is a process

00:09:08.300 by which some forms are more likely to be replicated compared with others. So we can think of the

00:09:15.580 evolution of life. We can think of, um, a, a, a finch with a certain beak in the Galapagos

00:09:21.680 as being more likely to survive and reproduce and pass on that trait compared with the other

00:09:27.880 forms. But we can think of anything, um, anytime there's competition, there's multiple forms

00:09:34.800 with some are going to exist in the future compared with others. Forms that replicate, forms that

00:09:38.820 get themselves into the future will be more likely to exist in the future by definition compared

00:09:43.640 with alternative forms. Applied to psychology, it essentially says that psychological processes

00:09:48.100 and behavioral patterns of a species like ours that came about by evolution largely served the

00:09:54.300 function of facilitating . Um, so if we can think about like a basic, some basic finding

00:10:02.100 that's, that's been found in evolutionary psychics. Um, men tend to find women with a curvy, um, 1.00

00:10:08.300 what they call a 0.7 waist to hip ratio relatively attractive. It turns out that that preference for

00:10:15.100 that waist to hip ratio is cross cultural. It's been documented across different cultures.

00:10:20.100 It's easy for people to reliably, um, make a determination, quickly make a determination

00:10:26.100 on attraction. That, um, there's research showing that the, that judgment, uh, seems to be rooted

00:10:33.100 in certain parts of the brain. So this is, um, Steve Plotek has documented that particular finding.

00:10:38.100 And on the other side, it's related to fertility. So women that have that relatively, um, curvy 1.00

00:10:45.100 waist to hip ratio are more likely to be in the fertile years. So that ratio after puberty,

00:10:51.100 you tend to see the curves with menopause, the curves tend to go away. So it's related to hormones.

00:10:55.100 It's related to actual fertility within a fertile population. Women that have that waist to hip 1.00

00:11:01.100 ratio or close to it are more likely to be able to get pregnant. They're less likely to have 0.99

00:11:05.100 pregnancy related complications. So that, um, that mating preference on the part of males that

00:11:12.100 seems to be evolved, that seems to be cross cultural, that psychological preference maps

00:11:17.100 onto something that facilitates reproductive success. And so it's that fit between, uh, psychological

00:11:24.100 qualities on the one hand and how they ultimately serve as a tool to get genes into the future on

00:11:30.100 the other. This is sort of the very basic idea I'd say of evolutionary psychology.

00:11:34.100 Interesting. So you talked about some of the physical attributes, right? Uh, for men being

00:11:39.100 attracted to women, there's that ratio. Uh, you also mentioned in the book, uh, about, you know,

00:11:44.100 hair, like the type of hair a woman has the shape of her eyes. Um, cause all those things indicate 1.00

00:11:50.100 age, right? Whether they're fertile or not. And then with, uh, women being attracted to men,

00:11:56.100 you know, sort of the stereotypical things like tall, dark, and handsome, right? Is that sort of the,

00:12:00.100 the? Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I'd say that's, that's partly it. Um, there's also a lot more than just

00:12:06.100 the physical. And I think one of the things we're trying to do in our book is we, we summarize

00:12:10.100 that research on physical qualities that are attractive and we go through the evolutionary

00:12:14.100 reasoning of why those, uh, qualities in men and women are attractive about not the attributes

00:12:20.100 and social attributes that are also attractive. And that may be just as critical in helping people

00:12:25.100 find and secure, um, strong and solid mates for themselves.

00:12:30.100 All right. So Scott, that's kind of where you came in too. You talk, you're, you're an expert

00:12:34.100 in creativity. Um, and you talk about how creativity is one of those attributes that, uh, both men

00:12:42.100 and women find attractive to each other. And you actually, you argue in the book that, you

00:12:46.100 know, things like art and, uh, music were sort of developed or we evolved those things to attract

00:12:53.100 mates, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I've, I've been conducting some, um, research with

00:12:58.100 my colleagues on this topic, even since the book has been released. Um, I've been working

00:13:03.100 on some papers, um, that's making me more and more confident. Obviously in science, you

00:13:08.100 never get at the truth, um, but you're always getting either support for something or not

00:13:12.100 support for something. But I'm, I'm starting to realize that the sexiness aspect of the arts

00:13:18.100 and, um, and like, um, displays of creativity, like entertainers and like Mick Jagger, you

00:13:24.100 know, these stereotypical people who get lots and lots of mates is the emotions that they're

00:13:29.100 eliciting from the perceiver. So it, um, we did this study, um, where we had people rate

00:13:36.100 a whole bunch of creative behaviors. Um, just simply say, how likely, how sexy do you find

00:13:41.100 this behavior? Like how, how likely would you be to have sex with this person if they show 0.79

00:13:45.100 this behavior? And we, and we gave them a whole gamut of behaviors and we found a ranking

00:13:50.100 literally from the most, um, uh, the aspects like, so actually the number, do you want

00:13:55.100 to know what the number one sexiest behavior was? It actually shocked us a little bit.

00:13:58.100 What's that?

00:13:59.100 I took my date on a spontaneous road trip. I think that's really interesting.

00:14:05.100 We weren't expecting that.

00:14:06.100 Yeah.

00:14:07.100 Number one, number one. Um, but it does, I think there is something telling about that because

00:14:12.100 all of the ones at the top, by the way, men and women, there was a hundred percent overlap

00:14:15.100 in the top five. So there wasn't sex, uh, did both males and females agree that, that,

00:14:20.100 so what the thing that was common, it seemed to be, um, the extent to which spontaneity

00:14:25.100 was a key aspect of it. Okay. So not like I deliberately planned, but more of, I, I sort

00:14:30.100 of let myself go emotionally with this. But also there are things like I sing in a band.

00:14:35.100 I, um, um, you know, I record, write music. So obviously music was one of them. Um, but

00:14:42.100 expression, like, um, paint, um, things of that nature. But I think that we, we're arguing

00:14:47.100 the thing that, that kind of makes all the, the thing that binds all together is these

00:14:50.100 are things that, um, you make some sort of connection with the other person, with the

00:14:54.100 perceiver. And you're also displaying that you have some sort of skill or trait or talent

00:15:00.100 or talent that does have a genetic basis and that can be passed on. You know, it's

00:15:06.100 a very subconscious level. Um, you're, you're being drawn to this to a certain extent because

00:15:11.100 your, your genes are screaming, oh, I'm going to have a child who is also going to be able

00:15:16.100 to do world-class art like this. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. That does make sense. I mean,

00:15:22.100 this raises a question too. Now, is this, when you're talking about, uh, attraction, is this

00:15:27.100 for, like, is this short-term attraction or is this long-term attraction? Cause I know

00:15:31.100 this was a theme throughout the book that both men and women have different mating strategies.

00:15:36.100 They're, they're thinking short-term and long-term. So is this creativity like, you know, going

00:15:40.100 after the guy, the lead singer in the band, um, is, do women find that sort of thing attractive 0.99

00:15:46.100 for like a short-term fling or is that they're looking, they see that guy, that guy would be

00:15:51.100 a great dad. Cause when I think, when I think of Mick Jagger, I don't think of him

00:15:54.100 like as, you know, the paragon in fatherhood, but, uh, he is, uh, by all measures from what I

00:16:00.100 taught, what I've heard is he's an attractive guy or not so much anymore, but he was in his prime,

00:16:04.100 right? I mean, you're, you asked a great question. All the research that's been conducted,

00:16:09.100 most of the research that has been conducted to date, um, shows that, uh, artistic success

00:16:14.100 predicts number of sexual partners within the last 12 months. Um, that's what I found with,

00:16:19.100 um, uh, Melanie Dussart and, uh, James Kaufman. Um, but there's also, uh, the higher the

00:16:28.100 skill, the more likely there are for number of sexual partners. So that may occur in the

00:16:32.100 theme is number of sexual partners. However, James Kaufman and his graduate student found

00:16:37.100 that, um, that passion, sustaining, um, uh, passionate relationship and, um, and mutual, uh, creativity

00:16:45.100 did predict, um, the length of relationship. I think the nature of the creativity changes

00:16:51.100 from more of a, Oh, a displaying aspect to more of a mutual sort of, um, engagement in

00:16:57.100 it. But I think that, um, it has a different flavor. Creativity is a different flavor for

00:17:00.100 short-term and long-term. Interesting. So, I mean, um, let's talk about that a little bit

00:17:05.100 more about the long-term short-term. So do men and women have, uh, similar or different

00:17:12.100 long-term short-term strategies or are they about the same? That's a really controversial

00:17:17.100 topic. Yeah, it is a controversial topic. Our, our, one of our collaborators and close

00:17:22.100 friends, Justin Garcia, um, has a very specific answer to that. What he'll say is that, and

00:17:28.100 his research kind of supports this, that, uh, that females don't really have a short-term

00:17:34.100 mating strategy. Um, that when we see, and there's, it's, it's a controversial idea, but I guess

00:17:39.100 I'll compartmentalize talking about females first. When we look at female, uh, mating 1.00

00:17:44.100 strategies, when women do engage in short-term mating, so a one-night fling or, um, dress

00:17:50.100 promiscuously, um, looking for what looks to us like short-term mating, there's interesting

00:17:56.100 research suggesting that that very commonly is something of a, I guess, a ploy to try to

00:18:01.100 try to turn into a long-term mateship. Um, so the hooking up research on, uh, that Justin

00:18:09.100 has done, Melanie Hill in my department and I have collaborated with him along with several

00:18:13.100 other folks, but it essentially is like, have you hooked up, describe the hookup? What

00:18:18.100 kind of activities did you do on your hookup? Um, what did you think it was going to lead

00:18:22.100 to? What were you expecting to get out of it? And one of the most intriguing things is

00:18:26.100 is that, um, both men and women actually were more likely than expected to say, I was hoping

00:18:31.100 to actually date the person. I was hoping it was going to last, but about 70 or 80% of

00:18:36.100 women will say that. Um, so what looks like a short-term mating strategy for females sometimes 0.99

00:18:42.100 may actually be part of a, um, an alternative route to a long-term mating strategy. Um, for,

00:18:49.100 for males, we definitely can compartmentalize, um, when you ask a man, what are you looking for

00:18:54.100 in a short-term fling versus what are you looking for in a wife? You do get very different

00:18:59.100 kinds of answers. Um, you do tend to see that looks kind of always matter, but in a short-term

00:19:05.100 fling looks matter a bit more, um, things like emotional stability matter a lot more in

00:19:11.100 a long-term relationship, not so much in a short-term relationship. Um, so there, there's

00:19:17.100 definitely, there's definitely a discrepancy there, but it does seem to look a little bit differently

00:19:21.100 for males and females. Additionally, there's the effect of ovulation, which is obviously

00:19:26.100 primarily a female endeavor. Um, when females are at peak ovulation, and, and there's just 1.00

00:19:32.100 a landslide of research coming out on the effects of the ovulatory cycle. Um, when females are 1.00

00:19:38.100 at peak ovulation, they're, they're very different than when they are at other parts in their cycle.

00:19:42.100 Um, and a lot of this speaks to, uh, mating strategies. They're more likely to, um, to initiate sexual

00:19:48.100 relations. They are more likely to show, um, sig, sexual signals. Um, if they're dancing,

00:19:55.100 there's been research on dance clubs, they move more, they dance more, they dress more

00:19:59.100 provocatively. Um, there's one study that was done where they, um, had graph paper with

00:20:04.100 like a little silhouette of a dress or a body, and it said, draw the dress you're gonna wear

00:20:08.100 tonight. And women who were at peak ovulation, uh, drew clothes that were so small that the number

00:20:14.100 of boxes on the graph paper was much fewer than the number of boxes for the woman who

00:20:19.100 was not ovulating. Um, so ovulation seems to be a major factor that seems to play into female 1.00

00:20:26.100 psychology. Interestingly, and we talk about this in the book, it ends up having effects

00:20:31.100 on male psychology as well, sort of as a result. So men seem to unconsciously be able to detect

00:20:37.100 aspects of ovulation. When a woman is ovulating, uh, men respond to them differently. Men rate

00:20:43.100 their voices as more attractive. Men rate their scent as more attractive. Um, and men will rate

00:20:49.100 them as more physically attractive in terms of both their face and, and their body. So that

00:20:54.100 seems to be a factor, um, an important factor that seems to affect both male and female, uh, mating 0.79

00:21:00.100 strategies. Um, can I add something real quick? Yeah, go ahead. Some cutting edge research has come out very

00:21:06.100 recently showing that vice versa. Um, women, both men and women can smell the personality,

00:21:13.100 certain personality traits in, um, the opposite sex. And it's most pronounced when 0.71

00:21:18.100 there, when there are smelling the, like the t-shirt, the used t-shirts of an opposite sex,

00:21:23.100 suggesting there's some sort of mating aspect of this. Um, particularly traits such as dominance,

00:21:29.100 um, and neuroticism and extraversion are, um, can be smelled. Interesting.

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00:22:45.160 And now back to the show.

00:22:47.220 Do you, do you guys know, is there any research on how, uh, hormonal birth control has affected

00:22:53.200 that sort of stuff? Because I think I've read somewhere that, uh, because when more women are 1.00

00:22:58.940 on birth control, like, you know, the pill, uh, they're finding, they don't find masculine faces

00:23:05.020 as attractive there. They find more like, you know, boyish looking or feminine faces more attractive

00:23:10.080 than say the masculine faces. Is that, is there something to that? I got to jump in there just

00:23:14.900 because my, uh, my graduate student, Rebecca Newmark, who's studying exactly that topic, um, just

00:23:20.640 finished data collection on about 600 women and just started analyzing data this week. And she

00:23:25.780 came to my office very excited the other day. We have a lot of analyses to do, but the, I'll give

00:23:30.900 you her hypothesis. I'll give you some of the brief analyses. I hope Rebecca is going to be okay with

00:23:34.700 me, um, divulging some of that here, but the, the, there's so much research, Brett, um, that triangulates,

00:23:41.780 that kind of points toward this idea that women on hormonal contraception, um, are different in a lot

00:23:49.300 of ways than, than other women. And the research has kind of been piecemeal, kind of showing they're 0.64

00:23:54.400 different in this venue. They're different in this, this area. And what she, what she's doing

00:23:58.880 is giving out, um, she gave out a measure of, are you on hormonal contraception or not? If you are,

00:24:04.300 what kind? So she's measuring the different kinds. Um, and she is comparing them across an entire battery

00:24:10.300 of personality, um, and social and cognitive kinds of measures with the, the basic prediction

00:24:17.360 is that women who are on hormonal contraception are going to be more likely to be long-term mating 1.00

00:24:23.440 strategists and more likely to be, to have a more positive social female network is one of her 1.00

00:24:28.980 predictions. Um, they're less likely to show indices of promiscuity. They're less likely to be attracted to

00:24:36.780 sort of a bad guy kind of image. And the very brief analysis that, that she has, has uncovered

00:24:43.660 has, has really confirmed or supported this particular hypothesis. And we think about that at a societal

00:24:49.860 level, it becomes very intriguing. Because if hormonal contraception has a very discernible effect

00:24:56.660 on a broad array of social and personality kinds of traits for millions and millions of women 0.72

00:25:03.320 that affect, and, and those traits all have been shown to affect mate selection, that's got an

00:25:09.820 interesting implication. That kind of means that you've changed the face of society and changed the

00:25:14.240 face of the future of the society. Because the people, the guys that are being picked as mates,

00:25:20.800 they're in a different game right now. It's like they're in a whole, whole other ball field

00:25:24.340 where the rules are different. Um, and it's just an unwitting outcome associated with biotechnology.

00:25:31.820 Hmm. So this kind of, this is a good segue to the next question. There's, you guys are probably

00:25:35.860 aware of like pickup artists, right? There's this whole like underground, it's not so underground

00:25:40.360 anymore, but these guys who are dedicated to learning about, you know, mating intelligence,

00:25:46.360 I guess. Um, and they seem to use evolutionary psychology to back up their approaches. Um, is there

00:25:53.480 anything, I mean, is there any truth to what they say or are they playing a different game? Um,

00:26:00.360 that you refer to Glenn? I mean, does, does pickup artist stuff work? I guess is the question I'm

00:26:04.420 asking. Scott, I know you, you studied this aspect a bit. Why don't you maybe take a crack at it?

00:26:11.460 Yeah, I think it's a really, I think that could be a whole other podcast, you know, um, uh, because

00:26:17.540 that is a, it's a very interesting topic. I, um, I've done research, um, about, um, uh, about the

00:26:26.240 sort of topic. Um, I've seen the techniques they use up front, you know, I've gone to the summits and,

00:26:31.460 uh, have observed this. I think that they, they do, I think it's a mixed bag. I think that, um,

00:26:37.920 there's a lot of diversity in what a lot of them are selling, you know, a lot of the techniques are

00:26:41.560 selling, but I think, I'll just say some of the things that I think are on the right track. Um, I think,

00:26:46.660 you know, a lot of them advocate the use of, um, witty, um, chat-up lines, as I guess they

00:26:53.140 call them in Scotland, pickup lines, right? Um, and I think there is evidence supporting

00:26:57.700 that is very important, having to sort of increase your spontaneity and ability to, um,

00:27:03.420 be contextually appropriate and say things that are funny, um, on the spot and, um, make,

00:27:08.400 make yourself just generally look more interesting. You know, there's lots of aspects. I see, I saw,

00:27:12.500 and I observe another major aspect of that community, um, is, is sort of overcoming approach

00:27:18.240 anxiety. I think that I would actually classify the, the large majority of what they're really

00:27:23.400 doing. If you really cut beneath the surface is, is helping shy guys, um, be more confident

00:27:31.820 in, um, and being more proactive and assertive in, in, in their, uh, meeting goals. Most of them,

00:27:38.060 their meeting goals are short-term. That is something I, I definitely noticed. Um, in fact,

00:27:42.660 I, at one of these seminars, I saw someone, um, actually a homosexual individual raised his hand 0.97

00:27:47.480 and he said, um, I'm here and I was wondering if you're going to have anything to say about

00:27:52.000 how to have a long-term relationship. And I, I think the guy running the seminar was like,

00:27:55.920 that's not why we're here. You know, he was just like, he's like, I'm going to be honest,

00:27:59.200 you're at the wrong seminar. Um, that might have just, that might have generalized all the

00:28:02.940 pick-upers community, but that really, that really struck me, you know, because I, you know,

00:28:06.300 I was like, interesting. So, I mean, they have a very clear goal, right? These, um, at least at

00:28:09.800 this summit, I specifically went to, but I think, um, so I think there are some, some things that

00:28:14.680 are backed up, but I do see some things that I think are not in line. I think they're more

00:28:19.660 wishful thinking or more of like, there's a lot of misogyny that I see in that field, um, coming

00:28:24.760 out of that, uh, from some individuals. I think it's a very diverse thing, you know, the pick-up

00:28:28.200 arts field. There's lots of people, like I said, with different methods, but I do see a lot of

00:28:31.680 people, um, I sense an undercurrent of, like, there's a lot of anger coming from, like,

00:28:36.460 people, a lot of guys who've been rejected, and they almost have a sad attitude of, like,

00:28:40.240 well, I want to get back at women by sleeping with as many as I can and then rejecting them 1.00

00:28:44.140 all. It's sort of like a, uh, and I think it's a whole different level. I think that there's

00:28:48.060 a psychological motive there that is, um, where it's unhealthy, and it's definitely not conducive

00:28:53.220 to ever finding a long-term me. And I think that if your goals are really some day in life

00:28:59.620 to settle down with so meaningful, you know, like, become like a Brett McKay, um, if that

00:29:05.240 is your ultimate goal is to actually have a, a serious, um, uh, playful relationship

00:29:10.940 with a woman, um, all the research suggests that vulnerability is a good thing. You know, 1.00

00:29:16.740 it's, it's okay to not put on this, like, super macho, um, and I think that's something

00:29:21.060 you're doing with your website, right? You're trying to kind of conceive of manliness in

00:29:24.900 not a, such a stereotypical sort of, um, false alpha beta way. Am I, am I right? That's one

00:29:31.520 of the goals of your website.

00:29:32.720 Yeah, for sure. And that actually leads, segue to another, another question. So this whole

00:29:36.580 alpha beta, that's alpha beta male thing. That's a very common thing amongst the pick

00:29:40.400 artist, pickup artist scene. And they talk about, well, if you want to attract women, 0.96

00:29:43.700 you got to be dominant, right? You gotta, you gotta show her who's the boss, you know, show 1.00

00:29:48.300 her who's daddy or I don't know, whatever they say.

00:29:50.220 I think that's wishful thinking again on a lot of their parts. They have this fantasy

00:29:53.640 world where, I think there's a lot of narcissism going on there as well, right? That's how

00:29:58.460 they view the world is I'm, you know, I'm the, the roar, but that's not, that's not, that's

00:30:03.540 not the reality, in fact, um, which is the prestige distinction that we make in the book.

00:30:09.200 Um, the prestigious man is what women seem to actually want. Um, if you actually listen 0.98

00:30:15.580 to women, if you actually care about, if you actually care about, if you actually do lots

00:30:17.880 of interviews and studies, we actually listen to what women really want. Um, it is more 0.57

00:30:22.960 of a mix of, um, sensitivity and assertiveness, not dominance, but assertiveness. And it is

00:30:28.900 a very subtle distinction, but it's a very important distinction because I think it gets,

00:30:31.960 um, very confused in this, this false alpha beta dichotomy. Um, dominance is, um, you know,

00:30:39.660 your say, everything you say, it's your way or no way, right? But assertiveness is being

00:30:44.060 honest and even vulnerable about what you want out of life and what your goals are. And

00:30:49.200 women find that aspect immensely sexy, assertiveness combined with, um, sensitivity. Um, it seemed

00:30:56.480 like the big thing that women didn't like are pushovers, um, and, um, and, and men, and, and, 1.00

00:31:03.780 and ultra shy men. So to that, that does seem to be bad. Um, that the research does seem to

00:31:09.540 bear that out. So the extent to which these pick of ours things do help men, um, at least

00:31:13.860 come off as more confident and assertive about what they want, not dominant. Um, I think that

00:31:20.380 that actually can help them in the medium domain. Does that make sense?

00:31:23.560 That makes, makes perfect sense. So let's, let's talk about this. Um, maybe one of you guys

00:31:29.120 have insights into this, how does culture play in effects? You've talked about studies

00:31:34.600 that show some of these attributes that we're attracted in, you know, men and women are attracted

00:31:38.400 in each other are cross-cultural, but does culture affect, uh, what we find attractive

00:31:45.160 in the opposite sex? Yeah. I, I mean, I, I think it definitely does. Um, and this is as an evolutionary 0.99

00:31:52.680 psychologist, this is a very big question that we are asked often. And I think one that we need

00:31:58.020 to take very seriously. Um, and it kind of goes back to your question also, I guess,

00:32:02.520 if I can connect it with that, the topic of the pickup artists, you know, as someone who's

00:32:07.340 been teaching evolutionary psych for a long time, but also someone who I see myself as,

00:32:12.140 um, as an academic is trying to be relatively socially proactive, um, trying to teach my students

00:32:17.400 at SUNY New Paltz, you know, go do great things, make this world a better place. When I hear

00:32:22.460 evolutionary psychology, get a bad rap of, oh, that's, um, teaching people to be selfish

00:32:26.980 and do what's, what's for their own, um, selfish ends. It's, it, it's, it's tough for me to be

00:32:32.020 honest. And if, if you look at my, my, um, publication record, I've including in this book

00:32:36.720 with Scott, I've published lots of things where I'm essentially trying to make the case

00:32:40.040 that we can use the science of evolutionary psychology for lots of positive pro-social

00:32:45.760 purposes. Um, so when I hear things like people who are in the pickup artist community, I mean,

00:32:50.960 this is just me personally when I, when I hear, oh, we're, we're using the science so that

00:32:55.040 we can exploit women. And I think you do hear a little bit of that. That's, that's, um, that's, 0.98

00:33:01.040 that's pretty unpleasant for me to think about, to be honest. Um, so I think that any scientific

00:33:07.040 area, any body of knowledge can be used for various purposes. Um, and to the extent that

00:33:12.360 we as moral beings have a similar kind of set of goals, it's, it's nice to use what we

00:33:16.800 learn, um, from science and from other similar kinds of fields to help work toward, uh, the

00:33:23.040 same sort of positive pro-social goals. Um, kind of relates to the idea of culture. So

00:33:28.040 culture is, is, um, speaking to rules that are sort of specific to communities, um, that

00:33:34.040 are different from how they play out in other communities. So, um, you, the question of cultural

00:33:40.040 variability is really very crucial. Now, on one hand, you see enormous cultural variability.

00:33:46.040 So the way that, that we're dressed today, we're wearing like shirts or just t-shirt,

00:33:51.040 like you're going to dress very differently in another culture, um, rules about, about

00:33:57.040 language, rules about children and how to deal with children and marriage. The rules just vary

00:34:02.040 from dramatically from place to place on the one hand. On the other hand, I guess this is

00:34:08.040 where the universal nature of, um, evolved tendencies comes into play. On the other hand, the rules

00:34:14.040 are about the same kind of stuff. So while, for instance, you have religions and different

00:34:19.040 cultures that, that look remarkably different from one another, they tend to have things like,

00:34:24.040 here's a ritual about childhood. Here's a ritual about birth. Here's a ritual about having someone

00:34:28.040 defined as part of your in-group. Um, here's the rules about marriage. Here's the rules about

00:34:33.040 extended family. Here's the rules about feeding. Um, here's our ritual for marriage is different

00:34:40.040 from place to place, but we all have a ritual regarding marriage, which connects the couple

00:34:45.040 into the broader fabric of a community. So when you talk about culture, it's always very important

00:34:51.040 to, to understand that a lot of times when things look very different, they're manifestations

00:34:56.040 of the same underlying universal evolutionary principle. Um, so I think when we think about

00:35:02.040 human mating, a lot of things, um, like music. So Scott was talking about how attractive musicians

00:35:09.040 are, and musicians, a good musician in North America now compared to someone in South America

00:35:16.040 300 years ago might be doing something incredibly different and would sound very different, but

00:35:21.040 it still is, wow, that person's on task, that person's charismatic, that sounds awesome, that

00:35:26.040 gets people up and dancing. Um, so I think that there's a real important universal element to, to

00:35:31.040 culture that we need to be aware of as well. Can I add to that? Yeah, go ahead Scott. I'm just

00:35:38.040 going to riff on this topic a little bit because it's something I think a lot about. I think

00:35:41.040 about, you know, the way, the language we use in, uh, in the field is that culture can amplify

00:35:48.040 evolved tendencies. So some things can appear, um, we can, we can be, um, fooled into thinking

00:35:55.040 that some exaggerated traits evolved to be that exaggerated when they didn't, when they

00:36:00.040 maybe the predisposition was, was something completely separate, but culture kind of played

00:36:05.040 on that to such an exaggerated degree that has become something that never intended to. Um,

00:36:10.040 and that is, uh, can be enforced sometimes. You see that with models, you see that with runaway

00:36:15.040 sexual selection, where models think they need to be skinnier and skinnier when the actual

00:36:19.040 made preference is not that skinny. You see that in use of pornography. Um, you know, there, 0.90

00:36:26.040 you can high, culture can highlight, um, you know, certain sexual practices things that, um,

00:36:32.040 it almost becomes where, where women and men feel pressure to, um, perform certain things that,

00:36:38.040 um, um, have been amplified much higher than, um, uh, than were ever intended. Um, uh, you see

00:36:46.040 that, and you see that lots of different aspects of culture. I could go on and on and on, but, um,

00:36:49.040 I think that culture, um, we, we as a society can choose what we want to, we have lots of evolved

00:36:55.040 aspects. We have lots of competing modules within us. Lots of competing drives. You know, some, um,

00:37:01.040 more moral than others. So we have lots of, we're complex, but culture can make that decision.

00:37:06.040 What we want to highlight and then what you want to amplify. Does that make sense?

00:37:10.040 That makes, that makes perfect sense. Um, you kind of a related question is to culture. Um,

00:37:16.040 how does, how has technology affected young people's mating intelligence? Cause for me personally,

00:37:22.040 like, you know, I'm, I'm 30 years old, but I interact with a lot of guys who were in their early

00:37:27.040 twenties. And I know a lot of these guys, they just seem sort of socially awkward. And I know, you

00:37:34.040 know, the sociality is an aspect of mating intelligence and they're just, they're struggling.

00:37:39.040 And I don't know if it's because they're, you know, they've grown up behind a keyboard and

00:37:44.040 a computer screen. Has that affected mating intelligence or has it stunted mating intelligence

00:37:51.040 or do our young people just adapting, uh, their mating intelligence to this new world?

00:37:56.040 Glenn might be in trouble here. So hold on. No, I think I'm good. I don't recognize the

00:38:01.040 numbers. I'm good. I thought you got in trouble. Never. So yeah, I mean, what, how, what role does

00:38:09.040 technology play? Like, you know, social media and computers and texting? Does that, has that,

00:38:14.040 does that play a role? Has that changed mating intelligence in any way or changed how people

00:38:18.040 use their mating intelligence? That's a great, it's a great question. And I think as we, as things move

00:38:23.040 forward, that's going to become a more and more important question regarding pretty much

00:38:27.040 any topic that we're, that we'll be discussing in the future, um, at the rate that technology

00:38:32.040 is moving. There's two important things about it, I guess, Brett, that I, that I'm hearing

00:38:35.040 you raise. One is that, um, and I have, I have two kids who love their little iPad kind

00:38:40.040 of things, you know, so I know exactly what you're talking about and it's a struggle and

00:38:45.040 every parent has the same struggle. You know, you bump into parents like, oh yeah, the electronic

00:38:50.040 devices, you know, but they're, it's, it's my next door neighbor, Ed calls it like a drug.

00:38:55.040 Like these kids say, you got the iPhone and what are you doing? I'm on the iPhone. How

00:38:59.040 long are you going to be on that? Six, seven hours. It is remarkable. Um, and part of it

00:39:04.040 is because those, you know, those, those technologies exploit our evolved tendencies. They exploit our

00:39:10.040 interest or interest in social connections. Um, the social connections are crucial to human

00:39:16.040 survival and reproduction. That's why Facebook, um, and all those kinds of things are so incredibly

00:39:21.040 successful. So on one hand, we, we see these technologies and people are, are overusing them.

00:39:27.040 And people are growing up on them now. So I just saw someone on Facebook, a friend of mine posted

00:39:32.040 today. She said, um, when my mom called me, she would yell out the window and call for me.

00:39:36.040 And I was outside playing. It was a very simple little statement, but it's such a distinction now

00:39:40.040 between, um, the percentage of time that people are, are on their little electronic devices.

00:39:45.040 If you spend your first 20 years on electronic devices, is that going to make you into someone

00:39:52.040 who's different socially than you would be otherwise? Absolutely. I mean, I think that that's,

00:39:57.040 that's gotta be the case. Um, so I think that's a really important point. And, you know, I think

00:40:02.040 one of the things is evolutionists, we tend to think about the importance of living in as natural

00:40:07.040 a way as you can, thinking back to what were the conditions like under which human evolution

00:40:12.040 took place. We certainly didn't have iPhones. We didn't have anything like that. Um, you know,

00:40:18.040 we were outside, we were exercising, we were eating non-processed foods. We were engaging in

00:40:24.040 interactions that were playful with the same individuals that we saw on a regular basis.

00:40:28.040 Um, that's what the human mind was evolved to, to be exposed to. So I think that technology definitely

00:40:35.040 has its ups and downs, but from, from an evolutionary perspective, I think it is, it is concerning.

00:40:40.040 And, and what you're saying about some awkward guys in their twenties, I think in the future

00:40:44.040 we'll expect probably more awkward guys in their, in their twenties. Um, and I guess the second

00:40:49.040 point that I'll just kind of put out there real quick is that it changes self-presentation.

00:40:54.040 So, so much about meeting is about I'm presenting myself. So if, if there's someone who's going to

00:40:59.040 me, I want to go meet someone at a bar, um, they would go and they would, you know, talk

00:41:05.040 to people and maybe dance and maybe talk to that person's friends, the music's loud.

00:41:09.040 So they get up close and there's like pheromonal communication and you hear the person's voice

00:41:14.040 and there's like this intimate kind of interaction. And now when you first meet someone online

00:41:19.040 dating has quickly gone from something that was sort of for weirdos to the standard. And it's

00:41:25.040 unbelievable how that's happened. Well, there's a bunch of things about online dating.

00:41:29.040 Um, if you put up an online profile, my best guess is that you put it up and you look at

00:41:34.040 it and you say, got to change that. I said this, I meant to say that, got to change that.

00:41:38.040 Or the lighting isn't good. Let me, let me redo that. Or if you write a statement, you're

00:41:42.040 going to say to your, to your best friend or maybe even to your mom, mom, does this sound

00:41:46.040 about right? Is this the right thing? Um, it probably shouldn't check with your mom, by

00:41:50.040 the way, just check with Brad. Yeah. Yeah. Check with me or Scott.

00:41:54.040 Um, but, uh, but, and then, so then when you finally get your first, your first presentation

00:41:59.040 of yourself out there, it may have gone through hours and hours of editing.

00:42:03.040 Um, and what person, what someone's going to see is the best possible photo of you with

00:42:07.040 this incredibly, hopefully incredibly well-written presentation of yourself with a video of you

00:42:12.040 that makes you seem smart, easygoing, all the things that you're capable of being one minute

00:42:17.040 one minute. You know, I mean, it does, it's such a, everything has been raised because

00:42:23.040 everything on online dating and this is what technology has done. Every single thing there

00:42:27.040 is a person's absolute optimized presentation of self. And that is evolutionarily unprecedented

00:42:33.040 in human mating. So I think something we've got to think about.

00:42:36.040 Something we've got to think about.

00:42:37.040 Yes. I mean, it sounds like you would have to, I mean, one of the mating skills you talk

00:42:41.040 about, mating intelligence skills you talked about in the book is deception, being able

00:42:45.040 to detect deception. And maybe that's one of the things that people have to like change

00:42:49.040 the way they detect deception. Cause yeah, you, when you modify your online profile, you're

00:42:54.040 not necessarily lying, but you're doing a lot of puffery, you know, like puffing what you

00:42:59.040 like, and it's not exactly the whole image. So like people, you know, if you meet somebody,

00:43:05.040 a woman had to be like, okay, is this guy really what he says he is on his online profile

00:43:10.040 or is he completely not, not this at all?

00:43:13.040 Right.

00:43:14.040 Can I defend this new world a little bit for a second?

00:43:18.040 Sure.

00:43:19.040 Um, there's, there's some potentially positive aspects, um, that can, you can really capitalize

00:43:25.040 on for increasing your mating intelligence. Um, something that, that concerns me a lot

00:43:29.040 of my research is understanding different kinds of minds. There's some kind of minds

00:43:32.040 that tend to be more, quote, socially awkward, like people with Asperger's, um, which is

00:43:36.040 high functioning autism. I think in this new world, um, you see a lot of opportunities

00:43:41.040 for people who, um, you know, have trouble looking people in the eye, who have trouble,

00:43:45.040 well, I, I suspect some, even some people you deal with are on the autism spectrum.

00:43:49.040 These, uh, people that you would describe as socially awkward, but this actually gives

00:43:53.040 a chance to display, it is their, their true self or the self they really want to express,

00:43:58.040 really might be hiding inside and might, and might not be given an opportunity on, um, in

00:44:03.040 this sort of pressure bar environment where they don't do well, or, or this, in the real

00:44:08.040 world, you have the, you have like this four or five second window. I mean, there's a lot

00:44:11.040 of pressure, um, for guys, and for males and females in these sort of real-life short-term,

00:44:18.040 you know, situations where you meet someone, it's like, you have a couple seconds to give

00:44:21.040 your best impression and who in the world can really give their entire, you know, unless

00:44:26.040 you are this, uh, you know, making someone attractive to you, but most of us aren't.

00:44:30.040 Right. And, um, to really, and most of us don't want to, you know, kind of manufacture

00:44:34.040 something. So I think that, um, some of these opportunities really afford people opportunities

00:44:39.040 that they didn't have before to really express their true witty selves.

00:44:42.040 Very interesting. Um, so let's, let's talk about this is we've talked about a lot of high

00:44:47.040 level, you know, kind of what mating intelligence is and some of the research that talks about

00:44:52.040 mating intelligence, but let's get practical here. I mean, is it possible to improve your

00:44:57.040 mating intelligence? And if so, what are some things that, you know, guys who are listening

00:45:01.040 right now, uh, and a lot of these guys are in college, I mean, in young and they're looking

00:45:06.040 for a relationship, what can they do now to improve their mating intelligence? 0.98

00:45:12.040 Um, I think that's a really good question. I think it speaks to the utility of, of all

00:45:17.040 the work that Scott and I did in this book. Um, one of the, one of the bottom lines is

00:45:22.040 that you gotta, you gotta think about presentation. I guess that's one of the things that, that

00:45:27.040 matters. I mean, people naturally do that, but, but the way that you come across to a mate,

00:45:31.040 you gotta think about the potential, um, things that are, are underscored by potential mates.

00:45:37.040 So if, if you're a young guy looking for a woman, well, you might, you might find it useful

00:45:41.040 to know that the number one thing women care about is mutual love and respect. And followed 0.99

00:45:46.040 right behind that is kindness in a partner. Um, and so there's a whole bunch of other qualities

00:45:51.040 that are like, these are some of the qualities that a lot of times get lost in the mix. So that

00:45:57.040 you, you hear, and this is accurate, that relatively muscular men are attractive, relatively dominant

00:46:02.040 men are attractive. These things are all true. But additionally, one of the things that we,

00:46:06.040 we go on in detail about in our book is altruistic men are attractive and kind men and men who show

00:46:14.040 empathy and, um, and listen well and, and show sort of, um, good ability to connect emotionally.

00:46:22.040 So I think that, that showing, showing signs of these and essentially working to, um, to,

00:46:31.040 to demonstrate all those kinds of qualities in a genuine kind of way, I think that these

00:46:35.040 are things that would, that would go a long way toward improving mating intelligence and

00:46:39.040 helping people better, better connect with potential mates.

00:46:42.040 Excellent. Scott, do you have any, any, any parting advice?

00:46:46.040 Yeah. I, I think that this, this picture of the prestigious man that we, um, we paint in

00:46:52.040 this book is, uh, takes a lot of the different aspects of mating intelligence and, um, together

00:46:56.040 in this one package. And, uh, Glenn mentioned most of the things, um, some additional things

00:47:01.040 are, um, developing some sort of culturally valuable skill or knowledge, not focusing entirely

00:47:07.040 on the target of the mate, but also, but, but first and foremost on yourself and, and developing

00:47:13.040 yourself as a human being so that you can genuinely express this aspect others. And, um, that is

00:47:20.040 something that we talked about deception and things. Well, one of the number one deal breakers

00:47:25.040 is when a mate feels the person has completely deceived them in terms of who they are. So

00:47:31.040 the best thing is to, is to develop these positive things authentically. I think that's

00:47:35.040 very important. Yeah. Yeah. Very good. Well, Scott Glenn, thank you so much for your time.

00:47:39.040 This has been a, just a fascinating discussion and it's a fascinating book and I highly recommend

00:47:44.040 all of you who are listening right now to go out and pick it up. It's, it's a great read.

00:47:48.040 Um, you're going to pick up a lot of useful information and a lot of stuff that will make

00:47:51.040 you just, it's, it's good. It's also good, like cocktail party fodder. I feel like, you

00:47:55.040 know, you can bring up, Hey, did you know that this is what's attractive, but great book.

00:47:59.040 Uh, thank you again, guys. Oh, thank you so much, Brett. We enjoyed it.

00:48:05.040 Our guests today were Dr. Glenn Gere and Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman. They are the authors

00:48:09.040 of the book, Mating Intelligence Unleashed, The Role of the Mind in Sex, Dating and Love. And

00:48:14.040 you can find their book on amazon.com.

00:48:19.040 That wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,

00:48:24.040 make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And until next

00:48:28.040 time, stay manly.

00:48:30.040 Bye.

00:48:31.040 Bye.

The Art of Manliness - April 04, 2014

Episode #45： Mating Intelligence With Drs. Glen Geher And Scott Barry Kaufman

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