Episode #45： Mating Intelligence With Drs. Glen Geher And Scott Barry Kaufman
Episode Stats
Summary
Dr. Glenn Geer and Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman discuss their new book, Mating Intelligence Unleashed: The Role of the Mind in Sex, Dating and Love, and the research that they highlight in their book that shows what men and women find attractive in one another and what you can do to be more attractive to someone of the opposite sex.
Transcript
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code art15 to save 15% off your first purchase. Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition
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of the Art of Manliness podcast. Well, today we're talking mating intelligence. What is mating
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intelligence, you might be asking? Well, it's basically the skills and know-how that you need
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to have in order to successfully navigate romantic relationships. And our guests today have recently
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published a book on this topic. They are two psychologists, Dr. Glenn Geer and Dr. Scott
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Barry Kaufman. And their book is Mating Intelligence Unleashed, The Role of the Mind in Sex, Dating and
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Love. And we're going to talk about the research that they highlight in their book that shows what
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men and women find attractive in one another and what you can do to be more attractive to someone
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of the opposite sex. And the surprising thing is there's more to it than physical attractiveness.
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We're going to talk about those things. So listen in. All right, Scott, Glenn, thank you so much for
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joining us on the Art of Manliness podcast. Yeah, thanks for having us, Brett.
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Yeah. All right. So, Glenn, this question's for you. Let's start off, what is mating intelligence?
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Because I've heard of, you know, emotional intelligence, and then I'm starting to hear
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about social intelligence and the different skills and knowledges that constitute that sort of
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intelligence. But what skills and knowledge constitute mating intelligence?
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Okay, well, I think it's a very good beginning question. It really speaks to sort of what we're
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doing with this book and what the idea is about. When you look at the history of intelligence
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research, for a long time, it was really just about cognitive processes. So things like math
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ability, verbal abilities, reading comprehension, complex problem solving kinds of things. And at some
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point, I'd say maybe in about the 60s or 70s, people started looking at different kinds of
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intelligence. There's a lot more to who we are than just our cognitive processing.
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So there was a movement by several folks at that point. And when I was a graduate student at
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University of New Hampshire in the 1990s, I worked with Jack Mayer. Jack, along with Peter Salovey,
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who's at Yale, created the idea of emotional intelligence, which became a huge idea in psychology,
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really captivated people, partly because it's a great idea, partly because it underscores how
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important emotions are for us, and partly because it made people who were good people who were good
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at doing stuff, but never did well on intelligence tests say, you know what, maybe it doesn't matter
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that much. Maybe my emotional intelligence or my ability to get along with others is really the
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core element of my success. Maybe that's what I should be cultivating in myself.
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So I did research on that with Jack years ago, and then I got very interested in evolutionary psychology
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and relationships from an evolutionary perspective, which we call human mating, pretty much looking at
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relationships the way that a biologist would look at mating behaviors in the natural world in non-human
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species. And research on human mating has really become huge. So we understand what are the causes of
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physical attractiveness, what are the causes of jealousy, what are the causes of success in
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relationships, of non-success, what's the difference between short versus long-term mating, all these
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different kinds of things. And I got very immersed in that field and suddenly realized that the same
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insight Mare and Salovey had early on about emotional research not being connected with intelligence,
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I had the same insight essentially about mating, that mating psychology is this juggernaut in
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psychologies, this huge body of research, as is intelligence. And no one had ever really connected
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these before. So I worked with Jeffrey Miller, who's a psychologist at the University of New Mexico,
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to do an edited book on this topic. And we started seeing that it was just fertile ground.
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This was a great area for if you're a young psychological researcher, there's so much that you can look at.
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And then I found Scott pretty soon in the process, and we started developing ways to measure mating
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intelligence. But to get back to your specific question of what is mating intelligence, it's essentially the
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cognitive processes that relate to relationship and mating psychology. So when we're thinking about
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ourselves in a mating context, how do you rate your own mate value? How do you assess the mate values of
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others? How do you detect honesty versus deception in the mating domain? And all these kinds of cognitive
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decisions comprise what we call mating intelligence. Awesome. So Scott, Glenn kind of touched on this a little bit,
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on some of the sciences that are involved with mating intelligence, or the research. Can you talk a little bit more
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about the research that's involved, or the branches of science that's involved, that you guys look to for your insights
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that you talked about in mating intelligence? Sure. I think that, so Glenn and I met each other in about 2005, 2006,
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and I think that our research interests have complemented each other well, and made this book and this construct
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all the richer, because I was primarily interested in creativity and intelligence, traditionally defined,
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you know, as this IQ aspect. What is that? But also I was interested in artistic displays of creativity
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and all the various ways that we can display our creativity. And what I heard about this mating time
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construct, and then I read The Mating Mind by Jeffrey Miller, which is a really key book that I
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recommend to all your readers, if they're interested in this topic, in addition to reading our book,
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is that these displays of creativity and displays of our personality, we're constantly signaling to
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others who we are, and our underlying traits and underlining genes, which is all very important
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from an ultimate Darwinian reproductive perspective. What are we, what's the likelihood we're going to pass on
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some of these traits to our children? What's the extent to which that's going to allow them to survive
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and, um, and, and, um, attract needs themselves? So in, in doing that, you can cast, and understand
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what those, quote, sexy traits are, you can cast a very broad net that goes far beyond physical
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attraction to things like creativity, humor, um, personality. We have different lots of dimensions of
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personality, and each one of them impacts on meeting success. Um, to, um, what we discussed in the book
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called the life history strategy, which is also really, um, it really, um, important and relevant,
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that is to the extent to which you with, sort of the fast life, um, are you very impulsive? Do you have,
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are you interested in, uh, quality over quality of meats? Um, or do you a little more the slow
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life? Um, and these are actual biological sources of variation that you see in lots of other
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animals. It's very, um, uh, there's a lot of continuity with, um, other species and things. It's all
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these things impact and, um, all these aspects of psychology, uh, play a role in understanding
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main intelligence. Awesome. So, so it sounds like there's biology you're looking to, you're looking
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to, uh, psychology and then evolutionary psychology. Can you guys, I mean, I'm sure for some of my
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readers, we have never heard of evolutionary psychology. Can you guys kind of give the
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cliff notes a version of that? I mean, what, what, I mean, I think a lot of people are familiar
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with biological, um, yeah, but not psychology. Yeah. Yeah. Um, the, uh, I've been, been teaching
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a course titled evolutionary psychology here at SUNY New Paltz for, for gosh, probably about
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a decade now. Um, and I think you're right that a lot of people don't really know what
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it is. And the phrase is, is something that doesn't necessarily, um, capture what it is to
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people when they hear about it. So I guess I'll give you the cliff notes version. It, the
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way that I put it, the short version is that evolutionary psychology is the idea that human
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behavior is part of the natural world. Um, so that's kind of just to think about a very
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brief version. What is an evolutionary psychologist? Someone who's studying human behavior, understanding
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that human behavior, just like the human body, just like the bodies of other organisms and
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other animals, all result from Darwinian forces such as sexual and natural selection. And when
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we think about those basic Darwinian forces, what they do is they facilitate replication
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of certain forms. Um, so a very short version of evolution is that evolution is a process
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by which some forms are more likely to be replicated compared with others. So we can think of the
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evolution of life. We can think of, um, a, a, a finch with a certain beak in the Galapagos
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as being more likely to survive and reproduce and pass on that trait compared with the other
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forms. But we can think of anything, um, anytime there's competition, there's multiple forms
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with some are going to exist in the future compared with others. Forms that replicate, forms that
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get themselves into the future will be more likely to exist in the future by definition compared
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with alternative forms. Applied to psychology, it essentially says that psychological processes
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and behavioral patterns of a species like ours that came about by evolution largely served the
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function of facilitating . Um, so if we can think about like a basic, some basic finding
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that's, that's been found in evolutionary psychics. Um, men tend to find women with a curvy, um,
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what they call a 0.7 waist to hip ratio relatively attractive. It turns out that that preference for
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that waist to hip ratio is cross cultural. It's been documented across different cultures.
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It's easy for people to reliably, um, make a determination, quickly make a determination
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on attraction. That, um, there's research showing that the, that judgment, uh, seems to be rooted
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in certain parts of the brain. So this is, um, Steve Plotek has documented that particular finding.
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And on the other side, it's related to fertility. So women that have that relatively, um, curvy
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waist to hip ratio are more likely to be in the fertile years. So that ratio after puberty,
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you tend to see the curves with menopause, the curves tend to go away. So it's related to hormones.
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It's related to actual fertility within a fertile population. Women that have that waist to hip
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ratio or close to it are more likely to be able to get pregnant. They're less likely to have
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pregnancy related complications. So that, um, that mating preference on the part of males that
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seems to be evolved, that seems to be cross cultural, that psychological preference maps
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onto something that facilitates reproductive success. And so it's that fit between, uh, psychological
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qualities on the one hand and how they ultimately serve as a tool to get genes into the future on
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the other. This is sort of the very basic idea I'd say of evolutionary psychology.
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Interesting. So you talked about some of the physical attributes, right? Uh, for men being
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attracted to women, there's that ratio. Uh, you also mentioned in the book, uh, about, you know,
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hair, like the type of hair a woman has the shape of her eyes. Um, cause all those things indicate
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age, right? Whether they're fertile or not. And then with, uh, women being attracted to men,
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you know, sort of the stereotypical things like tall, dark, and handsome, right? Is that sort of the,
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the? Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I'd say that's, that's partly it. Um, there's also a lot more than just
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the physical. And I think one of the things we're trying to do in our book is we, we summarize
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that research on physical qualities that are attractive and we go through the evolutionary
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reasoning of why those, uh, qualities in men and women are attractive about not the attributes
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and social attributes that are also attractive. And that may be just as critical in helping people
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find and secure, um, strong and solid mates for themselves.
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All right. So Scott, that's kind of where you came in too. You talk, you're, you're an expert
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in creativity. Um, and you talk about how creativity is one of those attributes that, uh, both men
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and women find attractive to each other. And you actually, you argue in the book that, you
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know, things like art and, uh, music were sort of developed or we evolved those things to attract
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mates, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I've, I've been conducting some, um, research with
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my colleagues on this topic, even since the book has been released. Um, I've been working
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on some papers, um, that's making me more and more confident. Obviously in science, you
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never get at the truth, um, but you're always getting either support for something or not
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support for something. But I'm, I'm starting to realize that the sexiness aspect of the arts
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and, um, and like, um, displays of creativity, like entertainers and like Mick Jagger, you
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know, these stereotypical people who get lots and lots of mates is the emotions that they're
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eliciting from the perceiver. So it, um, we did this study, um, where we had people rate
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a whole bunch of creative behaviors. Um, just simply say, how likely, how sexy do you find
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this behavior? Like how, how likely would you be to have sex with this person if they show
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this behavior? And we, and we gave them a whole gamut of behaviors and we found a ranking
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literally from the most, um, uh, the aspects like, so actually the number, do you want
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to know what the number one sexiest behavior was? It actually shocked us a little bit.
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I took my date on a spontaneous road trip. I think that's really interesting.
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Number one, number one. Um, but it does, I think there is something telling about that because
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all of the ones at the top, by the way, men and women, there was a hundred percent overlap
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in the top five. So there wasn't sex, uh, did both males and females agree that, that,
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so what the thing that was common, it seemed to be, um, the extent to which spontaneity
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was a key aspect of it. Okay. So not like I deliberately planned, but more of, I, I sort
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of let myself go emotionally with this. But also there are things like I sing in a band.
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I, um, um, you know, I record, write music. So obviously music was one of them. Um, but
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expression, like, um, paint, um, things of that nature. But I think that we, we're arguing
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the thing that, that kind of makes all the, the thing that binds all together is these
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are things that, um, you make some sort of connection with the other person, with the
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perceiver. And you're also displaying that you have some sort of skill or trait or talent
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or talent that does have a genetic basis and that can be passed on. You know, it's
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a very subconscious level. Um, you're, you're being drawn to this to a certain extent because
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your, your genes are screaming, oh, I'm going to have a child who is also going to be able
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to do world-class art like this. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. That does make sense. I mean,
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this raises a question too. Now, is this, when you're talking about, uh, attraction, is this
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for, like, is this short-term attraction or is this long-term attraction? Cause I know
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this was a theme throughout the book that both men and women have different mating strategies.
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They're, they're thinking short-term and long-term. So is this creativity like, you know, going
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after the guy, the lead singer in the band, um, is, do women find that sort of thing attractive
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for like a short-term fling or is that they're looking, they see that guy, that guy would be
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a great dad. Cause when I think, when I think of Mick Jagger, I don't think of him
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like as, you know, the paragon in fatherhood, but, uh, he is, uh, by all measures from what I
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taught, what I've heard is he's an attractive guy or not so much anymore, but he was in his prime,
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right? I mean, you're, you asked a great question. All the research that's been conducted,
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most of the research that has been conducted to date, um, shows that, uh, artistic success
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predicts number of sexual partners within the last 12 months. Um, that's what I found with,
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um, uh, Melanie Dussart and, uh, James Kaufman. Um, but there's also, uh, the higher the
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skill, the more likely there are for number of sexual partners. So that may occur in the
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theme is number of sexual partners. However, James Kaufman and his graduate student found
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that, um, that passion, sustaining, um, uh, passionate relationship and, um, and mutual, uh, creativity
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did predict, um, the length of relationship. I think the nature of the creativity changes
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from more of a, Oh, a displaying aspect to more of a mutual sort of, um, engagement in
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it. But I think that, um, it has a different flavor. Creativity is a different flavor for
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short-term and long-term. Interesting. So, I mean, um, let's talk about that a little bit
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more about the long-term short-term. So do men and women have, uh, similar or different
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long-term short-term strategies or are they about the same? That's a really controversial
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topic. Yeah, it is a controversial topic. Our, our, one of our collaborators and close
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friends, Justin Garcia, um, has a very specific answer to that. What he'll say is that, and
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his research kind of supports this, that, uh, that females don't really have a short-term
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mating strategy. Um, that when we see, and there's, it's, it's a controversial idea, but I guess
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I'll compartmentalize talking about females first. When we look at female, uh, mating
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strategies, when women do engage in short-term mating, so a one-night fling or, um, dress
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promiscuously, um, looking for what looks to us like short-term mating, there's interesting
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research suggesting that that very commonly is something of a, I guess, a ploy to try to
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try to turn into a long-term mateship. Um, so the hooking up research on, uh, that Justin
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has done, Melanie Hill in my department and I have collaborated with him along with several
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other folks, but it essentially is like, have you hooked up, describe the hookup? What
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kind of activities did you do on your hookup? Um, what did you think it was going to lead
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to? What were you expecting to get out of it? And one of the most intriguing things is
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is that, um, both men and women actually were more likely than expected to say, I was hoping
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to actually date the person. I was hoping it was going to last, but about 70 or 80% of
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women will say that. Um, so what looks like a short-term mating strategy for females sometimes
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may actually be part of a, um, an alternative route to a long-term mating strategy. Um, for,
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for males, we definitely can compartmentalize, um, when you ask a man, what are you looking for
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in a short-term fling versus what are you looking for in a wife? You do get very different
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kinds of answers. Um, you do tend to see that looks kind of always matter, but in a short-term
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fling looks matter a bit more, um, things like emotional stability matter a lot more in
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a long-term relationship, not so much in a short-term relationship. Um, so there, there's
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definitely, there's definitely a discrepancy there, but it does seem to look a little bit differently
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for males and females. Additionally, there's the effect of ovulation, which is obviously
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primarily a female endeavor. Um, when females are at peak ovulation, and, and there's just
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a landslide of research coming out on the effects of the ovulatory cycle. Um, when females are
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at peak ovulation, they're, they're very different than when they are at other parts in their cycle.
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Um, and a lot of this speaks to, uh, mating strategies. They're more likely to, um, to initiate sexual
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relations. They are more likely to show, um, sig, sexual signals. Um, if they're dancing,
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there's been research on dance clubs, they move more, they dance more, they dress more
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provocatively. Um, there's one study that was done where they, um, had graph paper with
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like a little silhouette of a dress or a body, and it said, draw the dress you're gonna wear
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tonight. And women who were at peak ovulation, uh, drew clothes that were so small that the number
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of boxes on the graph paper was much fewer than the number of boxes for the woman who
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was not ovulating. Um, so ovulation seems to be a major factor that seems to play into female
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psychology. Interestingly, and we talk about this in the book, it ends up having effects
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on male psychology as well, sort of as a result. So men seem to unconsciously be able to detect
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aspects of ovulation. When a woman is ovulating, uh, men respond to them differently. Men rate
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their voices as more attractive. Men rate their scent as more attractive. Um, and men will rate
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them as more physically attractive in terms of both their face and, and their body. So that
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seems to be a factor, um, an important factor that seems to affect both male and female, uh, mating
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strategies. Um, can I add something real quick? Yeah, go ahead. Some cutting edge research has come out very
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recently showing that vice versa. Um, women, both men and women can smell the personality,
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certain personality traits in, um, the opposite sex. And it's most pronounced when
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there, when there are smelling the, like the t-shirt, the used t-shirts of an opposite sex,
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suggesting there's some sort of mating aspect of this. Um, particularly traits such as dominance,
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um, and neuroticism and extraversion are, um, can be smelled. Interesting.
00:21:34.100
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Do you, do you guys know, is there any research on how, uh, hormonal birth control has affected
00:22:53.200
that sort of stuff? Because I think I've read somewhere that, uh, because when more women are
00:22:58.940
on birth control, like, you know, the pill, uh, they're finding, they don't find masculine faces
00:23:05.020
as attractive there. They find more like, you know, boyish looking or feminine faces more attractive
00:23:10.080
than say the masculine faces. Is that, is there something to that? I got to jump in there just
00:23:14.900
because my, uh, my graduate student, Rebecca Newmark, who's studying exactly that topic, um, just
00:23:20.640
finished data collection on about 600 women and just started analyzing data this week. And she
00:23:25.780
came to my office very excited the other day. We have a lot of analyses to do, but the, I'll give
00:23:30.900
you her hypothesis. I'll give you some of the brief analyses. I hope Rebecca is going to be okay with
00:23:34.700
me, um, divulging some of that here, but the, the, there's so much research, Brett, um, that triangulates,
00:23:41.780
that kind of points toward this idea that women on hormonal contraception, um, are different in a lot
00:23:49.300
of ways than, than other women. And the research has kind of been piecemeal, kind of showing they're
00:23:54.400
different in this venue. They're different in this, this area. And what she, what she's doing
00:23:58.880
is giving out, um, she gave out a measure of, are you on hormonal contraception or not? If you are,
00:24:04.300
what kind? So she's measuring the different kinds. Um, and she is comparing them across an entire battery
00:24:10.300
of personality, um, and social and cognitive kinds of measures with the, the basic prediction
00:24:17.360
is that women who are on hormonal contraception are going to be more likely to be long-term mating
00:24:23.440
strategists and more likely to be, to have a more positive social female network is one of her
00:24:28.980
predictions. Um, they're less likely to show indices of promiscuity. They're less likely to be attracted to
00:24:36.780
sort of a bad guy kind of image. And the very brief analysis that, that she has, has uncovered
00:24:43.660
has, has really confirmed or supported this particular hypothesis. And we think about that at a societal
00:24:49.860
level, it becomes very intriguing. Because if hormonal contraception has a very discernible effect
00:24:56.660
on a broad array of social and personality kinds of traits for millions and millions of women
00:25:03.320
that affect, and, and those traits all have been shown to affect mate selection, that's got an
00:25:09.820
interesting implication. That kind of means that you've changed the face of society and changed the
00:25:14.240
face of the future of the society. Because the people, the guys that are being picked as mates,
00:25:20.800
they're in a different game right now. It's like they're in a whole, whole other ball field
00:25:24.340
where the rules are different. Um, and it's just an unwitting outcome associated with biotechnology.
00:25:31.820
Hmm. So this kind of, this is a good segue to the next question. There's, you guys are probably
00:25:35.860
aware of like pickup artists, right? There's this whole like underground, it's not so underground
00:25:40.360
anymore, but these guys who are dedicated to learning about, you know, mating intelligence,
00:25:46.360
I guess. Um, and they seem to use evolutionary psychology to back up their approaches. Um, is there
00:25:53.480
anything, I mean, is there any truth to what they say or are they playing a different game? Um,
00:26:00.360
that you refer to Glenn? I mean, does, does pickup artist stuff work? I guess is the question I'm
00:26:04.420
asking. Scott, I know you, you studied this aspect a bit. Why don't you maybe take a crack at it?
00:26:11.460
Yeah, I think it's a really, I think that could be a whole other podcast, you know, um, uh, because
00:26:17.540
that is a, it's a very interesting topic. I, um, I've done research, um, about, um, uh, about the
00:26:26.240
sort of topic. Um, I've seen the techniques they use up front, you know, I've gone to the summits and,
00:26:31.460
uh, have observed this. I think that they, they do, I think it's a mixed bag. I think that, um,
00:26:37.920
there's a lot of diversity in what a lot of them are selling, you know, a lot of the techniques are
00:26:41.560
selling, but I think, I'll just say some of the things that I think are on the right track. Um, I think,
00:26:46.660
you know, a lot of them advocate the use of, um, witty, um, chat-up lines, as I guess they
00:26:53.140
call them in Scotland, pickup lines, right? Um, and I think there is evidence supporting
00:26:57.700
that is very important, having to sort of increase your spontaneity and ability to, um,
00:27:03.420
be contextually appropriate and say things that are funny, um, on the spot and, um, make,
00:27:08.400
make yourself just generally look more interesting. You know, there's lots of aspects. I see, I saw,
00:27:12.500
and I observe another major aspect of that community, um, is, is sort of overcoming approach
00:27:18.240
anxiety. I think that I would actually classify the, the large majority of what they're really
00:27:23.400
doing. If you really cut beneath the surface is, is helping shy guys, um, be more confident
00:27:31.820
in, um, and being more proactive and assertive in, in, in their, uh, meeting goals. Most of them,
00:27:38.060
their meeting goals are short-term. That is something I, I definitely noticed. Um, in fact,
00:27:42.660
I, at one of these seminars, I saw someone, um, actually a homosexual individual raised his hand
00:27:47.480
and he said, um, I'm here and I was wondering if you're going to have anything to say about
00:27:52.000
how to have a long-term relationship. And I, I think the guy running the seminar was like,
00:27:55.920
that's not why we're here. You know, he was just like, he's like, I'm going to be honest,
00:27:59.200
you're at the wrong seminar. Um, that might have just, that might have generalized all the
00:28:02.940
pick-upers community, but that really, that really struck me, you know, because I, you know,
00:28:06.300
I was like, interesting. So, I mean, they have a very clear goal, right? These, um, at least at
00:28:09.800
this summit, I specifically went to, but I think, um, so I think there are some, some things that
00:28:14.680
are backed up, but I do see some things that I think are not in line. I think they're more
00:28:19.660
wishful thinking or more of like, there's a lot of misogyny that I see in that field, um, coming
00:28:24.760
out of that, uh, from some individuals. I think it's a very diverse thing, you know, the pick-up
00:28:28.200
arts field. There's lots of people, like I said, with different methods, but I do see a lot of
00:28:31.680
people, um, I sense an undercurrent of, like, there's a lot of anger coming from, like,
00:28:36.460
people, a lot of guys who've been rejected, and they almost have a sad attitude of, like,
00:28:40.240
well, I want to get back at women by sleeping with as many as I can and then rejecting them
00:28:44.140
all. It's sort of like a, uh, and I think it's a whole different level. I think that there's
00:28:48.060
a psychological motive there that is, um, where it's unhealthy, and it's definitely not conducive
00:28:53.220
to ever finding a long-term me. And I think that if your goals are really some day in life
00:28:59.620
to settle down with so meaningful, you know, like, become like a Brett McKay, um, if that
00:29:05.240
is your ultimate goal is to actually have a, a serious, um, uh, playful relationship
00:29:10.940
with a woman, um, all the research suggests that vulnerability is a good thing. You know,
00:29:16.740
it's, it's okay to not put on this, like, super macho, um, and I think that's something
00:29:21.060
you're doing with your website, right? You're trying to kind of conceive of manliness in
00:29:24.900
not a, such a stereotypical sort of, um, false alpha beta way. Am I, am I right? That's one
00:29:32.720
Yeah, for sure. And that actually leads, segue to another, another question. So this whole
00:29:36.580
alpha beta, that's alpha beta male thing. That's a very common thing amongst the pick
00:29:40.400
artist, pickup artist scene. And they talk about, well, if you want to attract women,
00:29:43.700
you got to be dominant, right? You gotta, you gotta show her who's the boss, you know, show
00:29:48.300
her who's daddy or I don't know, whatever they say.
00:29:50.220
I think that's wishful thinking again on a lot of their parts. They have this fantasy
00:29:53.640
world where, I think there's a lot of narcissism going on there as well, right? That's how
00:29:58.460
they view the world is I'm, you know, I'm the, the roar, but that's not, that's not, that's
00:30:03.540
not the reality, in fact, um, which is the prestige distinction that we make in the book.
00:30:09.200
Um, the prestigious man is what women seem to actually want. Um, if you actually listen
00:30:15.580
to women, if you actually care about, if you actually care about, if you actually do lots
00:30:17.880
of interviews and studies, we actually listen to what women really want. Um, it is more
00:30:22.960
of a mix of, um, sensitivity and assertiveness, not dominance, but assertiveness. And it is
00:30:28.900
a very subtle distinction, but it's a very important distinction because I think it gets,
00:30:31.960
um, very confused in this, this false alpha beta dichotomy. Um, dominance is, um, you know,
00:30:39.660
your say, everything you say, it's your way or no way, right? But assertiveness is being
00:30:44.060
honest and even vulnerable about what you want out of life and what your goals are. And
00:30:49.200
women find that aspect immensely sexy, assertiveness combined with, um, sensitivity. Um, it seemed
00:30:56.480
like the big thing that women didn't like are pushovers, um, and, um, and, and men, and, and,
00:31:03.780
and ultra shy men. So to that, that does seem to be bad. Um, that the research does seem to
00:31:09.540
bear that out. So the extent to which these pick of ours things do help men, um, at least
00:31:13.860
come off as more confident and assertive about what they want, not dominant. Um, I think that
00:31:20.380
that actually can help them in the medium domain. Does that make sense?
00:31:23.560
That makes, makes perfect sense. So let's, let's talk about this. Um, maybe one of you guys
00:31:29.120
have insights into this, how does culture play in effects? You've talked about studies
00:31:34.600
that show some of these attributes that we're attracted in, you know, men and women are attracted
00:31:38.400
in each other are cross-cultural, but does culture affect, uh, what we find attractive
00:31:45.160
in the opposite sex? Yeah. I, I mean, I, I think it definitely does. Um, and this is as an evolutionary
00:31:52.680
psychologist, this is a very big question that we are asked often. And I think one that we need
00:31:58.020
to take very seriously. Um, and it kind of goes back to your question also, I guess,
00:32:02.520
if I can connect it with that, the topic of the pickup artists, you know, as someone who's
00:32:07.340
been teaching evolutionary psych for a long time, but also someone who I see myself as,
00:32:12.140
um, as an academic is trying to be relatively socially proactive, um, trying to teach my students
00:32:17.400
at SUNY New Paltz, you know, go do great things, make this world a better place. When I hear
00:32:22.460
evolutionary psychology, get a bad rap of, oh, that's, um, teaching people to be selfish
00:32:26.980
and do what's, what's for their own, um, selfish ends. It's, it, it's, it's tough for me to be
00:32:32.020
honest. And if, if you look at my, my, um, publication record, I've including in this book
00:32:36.720
with Scott, I've published lots of things where I'm essentially trying to make the case
00:32:40.040
that we can use the science of evolutionary psychology for lots of positive pro-social
00:32:45.760
purposes. Um, so when I hear things like people who are in the pickup artist community, I mean,
00:32:50.960
this is just me personally when I, when I hear, oh, we're, we're using the science so that
00:32:55.040
we can exploit women. And I think you do hear a little bit of that. That's, that's, um, that's,
00:33:01.040
that's pretty unpleasant for me to think about, to be honest. Um, so I think that any scientific
00:33:07.040
area, any body of knowledge can be used for various purposes. Um, and to the extent that
00:33:12.360
we as moral beings have a similar kind of set of goals, it's, it's nice to use what we
00:33:16.800
learn, um, from science and from other similar kinds of fields to help work toward, uh, the
00:33:23.040
same sort of positive pro-social goals. Um, kind of relates to the idea of culture. So
00:33:28.040
culture is, is, um, speaking to rules that are sort of specific to communities, um, that
00:33:34.040
are different from how they play out in other communities. So, um, you, the question of cultural
00:33:40.040
variability is really very crucial. Now, on one hand, you see enormous cultural variability.
00:33:46.040
So the way that, that we're dressed today, we're wearing like shirts or just t-shirt,
00:33:51.040
like you're going to dress very differently in another culture, um, rules about, about
00:33:57.040
language, rules about children and how to deal with children and marriage. The rules just vary
00:34:02.040
from dramatically from place to place on the one hand. On the other hand, I guess this is
00:34:08.040
where the universal nature of, um, evolved tendencies comes into play. On the other hand, the rules
00:34:14.040
are about the same kind of stuff. So while, for instance, you have religions and different
00:34:19.040
cultures that, that look remarkably different from one another, they tend to have things like,
00:34:24.040
here's a ritual about childhood. Here's a ritual about birth. Here's a ritual about having someone
00:34:28.040
defined as part of your in-group. Um, here's the rules about marriage. Here's the rules about
00:34:33.040
extended family. Here's the rules about feeding. Um, here's our ritual for marriage is different
00:34:40.040
from place to place, but we all have a ritual regarding marriage, which connects the couple
00:34:45.040
into the broader fabric of a community. So when you talk about culture, it's always very important
00:34:51.040
to, to understand that a lot of times when things look very different, they're manifestations
00:34:56.040
of the same underlying universal evolutionary principle. Um, so I think when we think about
00:35:02.040
human mating, a lot of things, um, like music. So Scott was talking about how attractive musicians
00:35:09.040
are, and musicians, a good musician in North America now compared to someone in South America
00:35:16.040
300 years ago might be doing something incredibly different and would sound very different, but
00:35:21.040
it still is, wow, that person's on task, that person's charismatic, that sounds awesome, that
00:35:26.040
gets people up and dancing. Um, so I think that there's a real important universal element to, to
00:35:31.040
culture that we need to be aware of as well. Can I add to that? Yeah, go ahead Scott. I'm just
00:35:38.040
going to riff on this topic a little bit because it's something I think a lot about. I think
00:35:41.040
about, you know, the way, the language we use in, uh, in the field is that culture can amplify
00:35:48.040
evolved tendencies. So some things can appear, um, we can, we can be, um, fooled into thinking
00:35:55.040
that some exaggerated traits evolved to be that exaggerated when they didn't, when they
00:36:00.040
maybe the predisposition was, was something completely separate, but culture kind of played
00:36:05.040
on that to such an exaggerated degree that has become something that never intended to. Um,
00:36:10.040
and that is, uh, can be enforced sometimes. You see that with models, you see that with runaway
00:36:15.040
sexual selection, where models think they need to be skinnier and skinnier when the actual
00:36:19.040
made preference is not that skinny. You see that in use of pornography. Um, you know, there,
00:36:26.040
you can high, culture can highlight, um, you know, certain sexual practices things that, um,
00:36:32.040
it almost becomes where, where women and men feel pressure to, um, perform certain things that,
00:36:38.040
um, um, have been amplified much higher than, um, uh, than were ever intended. Um, uh, you see
00:36:46.040
that, and you see that lots of different aspects of culture. I could go on and on and on, but, um,
00:36:49.040
I think that culture, um, we, we as a society can choose what we want to, we have lots of evolved
00:36:55.040
aspects. We have lots of competing modules within us. Lots of competing drives. You know, some, um,
00:37:01.040
more moral than others. So we have lots of, we're complex, but culture can make that decision.
00:37:06.040
What we want to highlight and then what you want to amplify. Does that make sense?
00:37:10.040
That makes, that makes perfect sense. Um, you kind of a related question is to culture. Um,
00:37:16.040
how does, how has technology affected young people's mating intelligence? Cause for me personally,
00:37:22.040
like, you know, I'm, I'm 30 years old, but I interact with a lot of guys who were in their early
00:37:27.040
twenties. And I know a lot of these guys, they just seem sort of socially awkward. And I know, you
00:37:34.040
know, the sociality is an aspect of mating intelligence and they're just, they're struggling.
00:37:39.040
And I don't know if it's because they're, you know, they've grown up behind a keyboard and
00:37:44.040
a computer screen. Has that affected mating intelligence or has it stunted mating intelligence
00:37:51.040
or do our young people just adapting, uh, their mating intelligence to this new world?
00:37:56.040
Glenn might be in trouble here. So hold on. No, I think I'm good. I don't recognize the
00:38:01.040
numbers. I'm good. I thought you got in trouble. Never. So yeah, I mean, what, how, what role does
00:38:09.040
technology play? Like, you know, social media and computers and texting? Does that, has that,
00:38:14.040
does that play a role? Has that changed mating intelligence in any way or changed how people
00:38:18.040
use their mating intelligence? That's a great, it's a great question. And I think as we, as things move
00:38:23.040
forward, that's going to become a more and more important question regarding pretty much
00:38:27.040
any topic that we're, that we'll be discussing in the future, um, at the rate that technology
00:38:32.040
is moving. There's two important things about it, I guess, Brett, that I, that I'm hearing
00:38:35.040
you raise. One is that, um, and I have, I have two kids who love their little iPad kind
00:38:40.040
of things, you know, so I know exactly what you're talking about and it's a struggle and
00:38:45.040
every parent has the same struggle. You know, you bump into parents like, oh yeah, the electronic
00:38:50.040
devices, you know, but they're, it's, it's my next door neighbor, Ed calls it like a drug.
00:38:55.040
Like these kids say, you got the iPhone and what are you doing? I'm on the iPhone. How
00:38:59.040
long are you going to be on that? Six, seven hours. It is remarkable. Um, and part of it
00:39:04.040
is because those, you know, those, those technologies exploit our evolved tendencies. They exploit our
00:39:10.040
interest or interest in social connections. Um, the social connections are crucial to human
00:39:16.040
survival and reproduction. That's why Facebook, um, and all those kinds of things are so incredibly
00:39:21.040
successful. So on one hand, we, we see these technologies and people are, are overusing them.
00:39:27.040
And people are growing up on them now. So I just saw someone on Facebook, a friend of mine posted
00:39:32.040
today. She said, um, when my mom called me, she would yell out the window and call for me.
00:39:36.040
And I was outside playing. It was a very simple little statement, but it's such a distinction now
00:39:40.040
between, um, the percentage of time that people are, are on their little electronic devices.
00:39:45.040
If you spend your first 20 years on electronic devices, is that going to make you into someone
00:39:52.040
who's different socially than you would be otherwise? Absolutely. I mean, I think that that's,
00:39:57.040
that's gotta be the case. Um, so I think that's a really important point. And, you know, I think
00:40:02.040
one of the things is evolutionists, we tend to think about the importance of living in as natural
00:40:07.040
a way as you can, thinking back to what were the conditions like under which human evolution
00:40:12.040
took place. We certainly didn't have iPhones. We didn't have anything like that. Um, you know,
00:40:18.040
we were outside, we were exercising, we were eating non-processed foods. We were engaging in
00:40:24.040
interactions that were playful with the same individuals that we saw on a regular basis.
00:40:28.040
Um, that's what the human mind was evolved to, to be exposed to. So I think that technology definitely
00:40:35.040
has its ups and downs, but from, from an evolutionary perspective, I think it is, it is concerning.
00:40:40.040
And, and what you're saying about some awkward guys in their twenties, I think in the future
00:40:44.040
we'll expect probably more awkward guys in their, in their twenties. Um, and I guess the second
00:40:49.040
point that I'll just kind of put out there real quick is that it changes self-presentation.
00:40:54.040
So, so much about meeting is about I'm presenting myself. So if, if there's someone who's going to
00:40:59.040
me, I want to go meet someone at a bar, um, they would go and they would, you know, talk
00:41:05.040
to people and maybe dance and maybe talk to that person's friends, the music's loud.
00:41:09.040
So they get up close and there's like pheromonal communication and you hear the person's voice
00:41:14.040
and there's like this intimate kind of interaction. And now when you first meet someone online
00:41:19.040
dating has quickly gone from something that was sort of for weirdos to the standard. And it's
00:41:25.040
unbelievable how that's happened. Well, there's a bunch of things about online dating.
00:41:29.040
Um, if you put up an online profile, my best guess is that you put it up and you look at
00:41:34.040
it and you say, got to change that. I said this, I meant to say that, got to change that.
00:41:38.040
Or the lighting isn't good. Let me, let me redo that. Or if you write a statement, you're
00:41:42.040
going to say to your, to your best friend or maybe even to your mom, mom, does this sound
00:41:46.040
about right? Is this the right thing? Um, it probably shouldn't check with your mom, by
00:41:50.040
the way, just check with Brad. Yeah. Yeah. Check with me or Scott.
00:41:54.040
Um, but, uh, but, and then, so then when you finally get your first, your first presentation
00:41:59.040
of yourself out there, it may have gone through hours and hours of editing.
00:42:03.040
Um, and what person, what someone's going to see is the best possible photo of you with
00:42:07.040
this incredibly, hopefully incredibly well-written presentation of yourself with a video of you
00:42:12.040
that makes you seem smart, easygoing, all the things that you're capable of being one minute
00:42:17.040
one minute. You know, I mean, it does, it's such a, everything has been raised because
00:42:23.040
everything on online dating and this is what technology has done. Every single thing there
00:42:27.040
is a person's absolute optimized presentation of self. And that is evolutionarily unprecedented
00:42:33.040
in human mating. So I think something we've got to think about.
00:42:37.040
Yes. I mean, it sounds like you would have to, I mean, one of the mating skills you talk
00:42:41.040
about, mating intelligence skills you talked about in the book is deception, being able
00:42:45.040
to detect deception. And maybe that's one of the things that people have to like change
00:42:49.040
the way they detect deception. Cause yeah, you, when you modify your online profile, you're
00:42:54.040
not necessarily lying, but you're doing a lot of puffery, you know, like puffing what you
00:42:59.040
like, and it's not exactly the whole image. So like people, you know, if you meet somebody,
00:43:05.040
a woman had to be like, okay, is this guy really what he says he is on his online profile
00:43:14.040
Can I defend this new world a little bit for a second?
00:43:19.040
Um, there's, there's some potentially positive aspects, um, that can, you can really capitalize
00:43:25.040
on for increasing your mating intelligence. Um, something that, that concerns me a lot
00:43:29.040
of my research is understanding different kinds of minds. There's some kind of minds
00:43:32.040
that tend to be more, quote, socially awkward, like people with Asperger's, um, which is
00:43:36.040
high functioning autism. I think in this new world, um, you see a lot of opportunities
00:43:41.040
for people who, um, you know, have trouble looking people in the eye, who have trouble,
00:43:45.040
well, I, I suspect some, even some people you deal with are on the autism spectrum.
00:43:49.040
These, uh, people that you would describe as socially awkward, but this actually gives
00:43:53.040
a chance to display, it is their, their true self or the self they really want to express,
00:43:58.040
really might be hiding inside and might, and might not be given an opportunity on, um, in
00:44:03.040
this sort of pressure bar environment where they don't do well, or, or this, in the real
00:44:08.040
world, you have the, you have like this four or five second window. I mean, there's a lot
00:44:11.040
of pressure, um, for guys, and for males and females in these sort of real-life short-term,
00:44:18.040
you know, situations where you meet someone, it's like, you have a couple seconds to give
00:44:21.040
your best impression and who in the world can really give their entire, you know, unless
00:44:26.040
you are this, uh, you know, making someone attractive to you, but most of us aren't.
00:44:30.040
Right. And, um, to really, and most of us don't want to, you know, kind of manufacture
00:44:34.040
something. So I think that, um, some of these opportunities really afford people opportunities
00:44:39.040
that they didn't have before to really express their true witty selves.
00:44:42.040
Very interesting. Um, so let's, let's talk about this is we've talked about a lot of high
00:44:47.040
level, you know, kind of what mating intelligence is and some of the research that talks about
00:44:52.040
mating intelligence, but let's get practical here. I mean, is it possible to improve your
00:44:57.040
mating intelligence? And if so, what are some things that, you know, guys who are listening
00:45:01.040
right now, uh, and a lot of these guys are in college, I mean, in young and they're looking
00:45:06.040
for a relationship, what can they do now to improve their mating intelligence?
00:45:12.040
Um, I think that's a really good question. I think it speaks to the utility of, of all
00:45:17.040
the work that Scott and I did in this book. Um, one of the, one of the bottom lines is
00:45:22.040
that you gotta, you gotta think about presentation. I guess that's one of the things that, that
00:45:27.040
matters. I mean, people naturally do that, but, but the way that you come across to a mate,
00:45:31.040
you gotta think about the potential, um, things that are, are underscored by potential mates.
00:45:37.040
So if, if you're a young guy looking for a woman, well, you might, you might find it useful
00:45:41.040
to know that the number one thing women care about is mutual love and respect. And followed
00:45:46.040
right behind that is kindness in a partner. Um, and so there's a whole bunch of other qualities
00:45:51.040
that are like, these are some of the qualities that a lot of times get lost in the mix. So that
00:45:57.040
you, you hear, and this is accurate, that relatively muscular men are attractive, relatively dominant
00:46:02.040
men are attractive. These things are all true. But additionally, one of the things that we,
00:46:06.040
we go on in detail about in our book is altruistic men are attractive and kind men and men who show
00:46:14.040
empathy and, um, and listen well and, and show sort of, um, good ability to connect emotionally.
00:46:22.040
So I think that, that showing, showing signs of these and essentially working to, um, to,
00:46:31.040
to demonstrate all those kinds of qualities in a genuine kind of way, I think that these
00:46:35.040
are things that would, that would go a long way toward improving mating intelligence and
00:46:39.040
helping people better, better connect with potential mates.
00:46:42.040
Excellent. Scott, do you have any, any, any parting advice?
00:46:46.040
Yeah. I, I think that this, this picture of the prestigious man that we, um, we paint in
00:46:52.040
this book is, uh, takes a lot of the different aspects of mating intelligence and, um, together
00:46:56.040
in this one package. And, uh, Glenn mentioned most of the things, um, some additional things
00:47:01.040
are, um, developing some sort of culturally valuable skill or knowledge, not focusing entirely
00:47:07.040
on the target of the mate, but also, but, but first and foremost on yourself and, and developing
00:47:13.040
yourself as a human being so that you can genuinely express this aspect others. And, um, that is
00:47:20.040
something that we talked about deception and things. Well, one of the number one deal breakers
00:47:25.040
is when a mate feels the person has completely deceived them in terms of who they are. So
00:47:31.040
the best thing is to, is to develop these positive things authentically. I think that's
00:47:35.040
very important. Yeah. Yeah. Very good. Well, Scott Glenn, thank you so much for your time.
00:47:39.040
This has been a, just a fascinating discussion and it's a fascinating book and I highly recommend
00:47:44.040
all of you who are listening right now to go out and pick it up. It's, it's a great read.
00:47:48.040
Um, you're going to pick up a lot of useful information and a lot of stuff that will make
00:47:51.040
you just, it's, it's good. It's also good, like cocktail party fodder. I feel like, you
00:47:55.040
know, you can bring up, Hey, did you know that this is what's attractive, but great book.
00:47:59.040
Uh, thank you again, guys. Oh, thank you so much, Brett. We enjoyed it.
00:48:05.040
Our guests today were Dr. Glenn Gere and Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman. They are the authors
00:48:09.040
of the book, Mating Intelligence Unleashed, The Role of the Mind in Sex, Dating and Love. And
00:48:19.040
That wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,
00:48:24.040
make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And until next