The Art of Manliness - Episode #49： The Way Of Men With Jack Donovan

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00:00:58.780 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. Now, a question

00:01:04.660 we've attempted to answer on the Art of Manliness is what is manliness? And as our guest points

00:01:11.980 out today in the podcast, that is one of the hardest easy questions to answer because I think

00:01:17.400 a lot of people think they know what it is. They have an idea of what it is, but when pressed

00:01:21.360 to give an answer, they fumble a lot and they can't come up with something articulate or concise.

00:01:28.600 But our guest today in his new book sets out to give a universal definition of manliness.

00:01:35.960 His name is Jack Donovan. He's the author of the book, The Way of Men. And in today's podcast,

00:01:42.120 we're going to talk about what is the way of men? What is manliness? And he's also going to share

00:01:46.500 what he thinks are the universal tactical virtues of manliness. Really interesting discussion. So

00:01:52.160 stay tuned. All right. Well, Jack Donovan, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me.

00:01:58.780 All right. So your book, The Way of Men, came out about two years ago. Is that correct?

00:02:03.860 Yeah. I think a little less than that. A little less than that. Well, I mean,

00:02:06.360 it's one of the better books on masculinity that I've read. What I loved about it is that it challenges

00:02:11.560 you. You know, you're not going to agree with everything, but you force the reader to like

00:02:16.220 question their assumptions about things. And, uh, I had like mental debates with you, uh, while I was

00:02:23.020 reading and even my wife, my wife, wife read the book and, um, she thought it was great too. And

00:02:27.380 we'd have these like, okay, what did he mean by that? So kudos for that, for writing a challenging

00:02:31.760 book like that. Thanks. Thanks. All right. So I'm going to start off by asking you a question that

00:02:37.340 you asked me, uh, in writing this book, The Way of Men, because I think it sets up what the way of

00:02:43.840 men is about. Um, so you asked me this question. I thought at the, at the time I thought it was

00:02:48.920 super insightful and I still think it's a really insightful question. It is what's the difference

00:02:53.340 between being a good man and being good at being a man? Um, so what is the difference between being

00:03:01.540 a good man and being good at being a man? Well, yeah, that, that seems to have ended up being one

00:03:06.400 of the big takeaways from the book, uh, that people, I think it's a really good separation.

00:03:11.760 And, uh, basically the whole project of The Way of Men was to develop a universal definition of

00:03:17.820 masculinity. And it seems like the question, what is masculinity is the hardest easy question

00:03:25.280 for most men to answer. And I want to try to answer it. And, uh, as I listened to the other

00:03:31.640 answers that men gave, I began to realize they were actually having two different conversations.

00:03:37.680 And, uh, on one hand, they're talking about morality and about the moral virtues they attributed to men.

00:03:43.360 And on the other hand, they're talking about something else, something older, something more

00:03:47.140 primal. What it means to be a good man changes with religion and ideology. It changes a lot from

00:03:52.760 society to society. It changes if you're a Muslim, changes if you're a pagan and atheist, changes if you're 0.90

00:03:59.220 a capitalist or a communist, changes if you're rich or poor. But I wanted to, uh, react to something

00:04:06.280 else. I think we react to something else when we talk to other men and we just kind of are in their

00:04:11.500 presence. And I think we identified as manliness and I wanted to figure out what that is. And, uh,

00:04:19.440 so I think we can look at a man and have a reaction to him and no matter what his culture

00:04:25.120 or social class he comes from and get a sense of what being manly is. And, uh, you can have this

00:04:34.360 really good guy, you know, a really nice guy who does all the right things and he maybe doesn't come

00:04:39.940 off as being manly at all. And then you can also have a man who is a real jerk and still recognize 0.99

00:04:45.000 him as manlier than the good guy. One of the people, one of the questions that people like from the book 0.98

00:04:50.140 is, uh, is, uh, is Darth Vader unmanly? And, uh, you know, if you like Batman and you think he's

00:04:56.280 doing the right thing, does that mean that Bane is unmanly? And I don't, I don't really think that

00:05:00.140 you can say Bane is really unmanly and, and be honest with yourself. I just, I don't, so I wanted

00:05:06.260 to figure out what else was there. What are we reacting to? Uh, you know, in the way it meant I wanted

00:05:13.200 to figure out what we recognize in men as manliness, whether they're good men or bad men,

00:05:19.860 morally speaking, when we think about being a man, and I mean, being good at being a man

00:05:26.380 outside of morality or religion or political ideology, I came to the conclusion that we're

00:05:32.600 identifying traits that in other men would make them more successful in a survival situation.

00:05:38.060 Being good at being a man has a high value to us today because it had a high value to our

00:05:45.420 ancestors as they were struggling to survive. Men who are stronger, more athletic, men who are

00:05:50.940 strategically smarter, men who are more skillful, more daring, more adept at doing the things that

00:05:55.720 were required specifically of men who were fighting to survive, they were going to be idolized by other

00:06:01.800 men, followed by other men, emulated by other men. And we still do that with the sports hero,

00:06:08.040 for instance, though, uh, sadly, most of us only seem to do that with warriors if they are actors

00:06:13.140 playing warriors in a movie. So whether we're talking about being good men or bad men, however,

00:06:19.520 we define who is good or bad. I think that being good at being a man is about demonstrating and

00:06:25.180 embodying the qualities that would have made our primal ancestors valuable members of a fighting group.

00:06:30.140 In the way of man, I called those qualities tactical values or tactical virtues, sorry, uh,

00:06:37.180 strength, courage, mastery, and honor.

00:06:41.080 So I love that point. Cause like, I think you're onto something cause I, I,

00:06:44.940 I've recognized that too. Like there's like guys that I, I, I necessarily don't think they're good

00:06:49.840 guys, but like, I'm like, man, that guy is really manly. Like that guy is masculine. He's got some

00:06:55.100 sort of energy or, uh, through most about him that just like exudes Matt like that. I want to be like

00:07:02.540 that guy in some ways, even though he's not that good of a dude. Um, and I think, I guess you're

00:07:07.740 right. You're hitting on the nail. So being good at being a man is sort of this primal masculinity,

00:07:11.120 what made our ancestors successful as men thousands of years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so,

00:07:19.560 okay. You talk about these tactical virtues, um, honor, strength, mastery, courage. Um,

00:07:27.840 so how did you decide on these for me? It was it, you, you, you alluded to that it's, um, these are

00:07:33.180 the virtues or attributes that made men successful, but how did you determine that those were the ones

00:07:37.680 and was it through research or reading or just thinking about it? What was it?

00:07:41.520 Well, I think a lot of it's a thought problem. I mean, uh, you know, I started trying to breaking

00:07:47.440 things into categories and, you know, when you talk about masculinity and men talk about this all

00:07:52.200 the time, uh, you know, it becomes, is this masculine? Is this not masculine? Is this manly?

00:07:57.840 Is this not manly? And this is ongoing debate forever and ever. And I wanted to try and figure

00:08:02.800 out how do you answer that? And that, that, you know, how do you answer, is this manly? Is this

00:08:07.520 unmanly? And, uh, you know, at first, you know, I looked at the qualities that make men most

00:08:13.300 different from most women. And that's an important way to say that because difference between the 1.00

00:08:18.240 sexes aren't about absolutes. They're about majority trends. You know, it's like the easiest 0.99

00:08:24.120 one is strength. Men are stronger than women. Every man is not stronger than every woman, but,

00:08:30.980 uh, most men are stronger than most women. So strength is a defining characteristic of men,

00:08:37.840 whether you're talking about good men or bad men. And, uh, stronger men have a higher value in a

00:08:44.200 survival group than weaker men. The idea that men should be strong still comes from that. It's just

00:08:49.580 not, it's not, you know, people want to make it like it's some kind of arbitrary social programming

00:08:53.860 that we get from the media. And, you know, I think it's much, much older and much deeper than that.

00:09:00.940 And, uh, you know, the same thing with courage, you know, men tend to be willing to take more risks

00:09:05.880 than women. It gets us into a lot of trouble today. Uh, you know, that's why, you know, men are 0.94

00:09:11.600 pulled over more for speeding and all kinds of things. But, uh, you know, it's, it's a good thing

00:09:16.400 for a group, if not always for the individual in a primal band of hunters and fighters, you know,

00:09:23.120 you need people who are willing to take risks and spear that angry boar. So, uh, you know, I go into

00:09:31.100 obviously deeper explanations for all the virtues in the book. You know, we don't really have time to get

00:09:35.200 into all that now. So, you know, if your listeners want to check that out, that'd be cool.

00:09:39.020 Sure. I thought mastery was a really interesting one because I wouldn't have thought that, but

00:09:42.860 what do you mean by that? Kind of just briefly?

00:09:45.580 Well, it was just kind of a missing hole in the, in the puzzle. You know, as I was trying to put

00:09:50.800 together these virtues, you know, a mastery, you know, without, without some kind of mastery, 0.77

00:09:57.600 strength and courage are kind of ridiculous. You know, they don't, unless you're competent,

00:10:02.360 you know, you can be as strong and daring as possible, but you know, you're not really going

00:10:08.320 to achieve anything. And I think that that's something that men judge each other on constantly

00:10:12.740 and very harshly. And, you know, not to disparage women, but you know, when you talk to, to,

00:10:19.100 I think women are much more comfortable being like, oh my God, I'm totally not good at that. 1.00

00:10:24.240 Yeah. You know, whereas men want to be good at everything. Yeah. You know, they want to be

00:10:29.740 good at, you know, they don't want to admit they aren't good at things. And I think that that's the

00:10:34.420 reason is because, you know, men judge each other by how good they are at doing the job that they need

00:10:42.140 to do. Yeah. I thought it was interesting in my research about the history of bachelorhood in the

00:10:48.420 United States, like in the 1600s, like you weren't considered a man unless you, people thought of

00:10:55.260 you as being a master and not necessarily meant like being a man, having slaves, but like you had

00:11:00.640 mastery of yourself, mastery of life. Like you, you had it, you had your stuff together. You can

00:11:04.640 contribute to society. And so, yeah, when I read that, then I read your section, like, wow, that's,

00:11:09.700 that's a really good insight that you got there. And we've kind of, I guess we've kind of lost that

00:11:14.000 idea of men, you know, valuing men for their mastery, uh, in a particular skill set or whatever.

00:11:21.100 Um, cause you really don't talk about, we really don't talk about that that much anymore today's

00:11:24.440 society. No, at least not using those words. I mean, I think that, I think that we all look at,

00:11:29.080 you know, a guy who really has his stuff together and we're like, I want to be more like that.

00:11:34.360 And in talking to me, you mentioned how, um, you know, sometimes we think of these virtues as,

00:11:39.600 or these tactical virtues as these like social conditioning. And I think it is really primal

00:11:44.640 because it's still like, even today, even though, um, we not, we might not place an emphasis

00:11:49.200 as a society on these, these attributes or these virtues, like people or men get really touchy.

00:11:55.100 If you like call them weak or you say they're a chicken or they're yellow, right? They get, I mean, 1.00

00:12:01.540 even like, even if like the most, not very manly guy will still kind of that, that stings for some

00:12:06.400 reason. Coward is a fighting word. Yeah. You know, it's still a fighting word for men. And you

00:12:11.860 know, it's not something that I think women really react to like what? Yeah. Okay. You know, but yeah, 0.99

00:12:17.720 for men, you call a man a coward. That's yeah. Yeah. Not good. So what are the consequences of for men 0.58

00:12:25.160 and society in general for not living by these tactical virtues? Is it a malaise? Is it bad for

00:12:30.840 I mean, what, what's, I mean, what, what do we get out of living these out of living these four tactical

00:12:35.220 virtues? Well, I mean, I think because we are kind of primarily, uh, set up, you know, primarily,

00:12:44.660 we're kind of wired, uh, to want to display these things. So I think when we don't get an opportunity

00:12:51.080 to, to do these things, I think, uh, you know, yeah, there is a malaise there. There is a little

00:12:55.140 bit of, uh, depression. I think, you know, I think it, a lot of men feel like they're lacking

00:13:00.880 direction and lacking things to do. I mean, we're not really designed to, you know, you see this with

00:13:07.720 boys who were, you know, they, they, uh, get diagnosis of being hyperactive in school because

00:13:13.760 we're not really designed to sit in a chair all day. That's not, you know, that's not what our

00:13:18.460 ancestors did. You know, some of us are better at the others, you know, and they can find their own

00:13:23.860 way through that. But, uh, you know, we're not really, we're not ever designed for that. And I

00:13:29.200 think that, you know, you know, while people at kind of the top of society have the opportunities

00:13:33.640 to, you know, they'll sit in, you know, be investment bankers all day and then go climb

00:13:38.440 Everest because they have a million dollars to do it. I think for the mass of us, you're just,

00:13:45.320 you know, creating a society of men that's disengaged because, you know, we're not getting a lot out of

00:13:52.060 being customer service representatives, you know, that we're not really getting a lot of

00:13:56.140 satisfaction out of what our lives are.

00:14:00.620 So I want to come back to that, like what we can do, um, kind of your solution. Cause you talk

00:14:05.200 about that in the way of the men. Um, but before we get there, I want to talk about, uh, one of the

00:14:09.880 virtues a little bit, uh, which is honor. And, um, because you did a really great job and we actually,

00:14:15.780 you know, we wrote a big series about the history of traditional honor.

00:14:19.460 Yeah. I don't know anyone who's done more.

00:14:22.060 It's good stuff.

00:14:23.000 Thank you. It was like the hardest thing we've ever written. I mean, it took seven months,

00:14:26.860 I think. Uh, and just, so just for our reader or people who are listening, um, when we're talking

00:14:33.740 about honor, we're not talking about honor in the modern sense. Um, because I think most people,

00:14:39.040 when they hear honor, they think, Oh, it means integrity or like, you know, I'm being true to

00:14:43.960 my personal values or whatever means whatever's good. Yeah. Whatever's good. Yeah, exactly. Um,

00:14:49.540 you're talking about honor and we're talking about honor in the traditional sense, um, which what

00:14:54.500 honor was for most of human history and is still what it means in some non-Western cultures. And

00:14:59.960 that's basically what it comes down to is your reputation as a man, right? Your reputation,

00:15:04.360 your reputation, you would say, and in living these four tactical virtues, um, and it'd be like,

00:15:10.980 that would be like the code of honor, right? The code of the way of men is you have to live up to

00:15:14.740 these things. And if you don't live up to, uh, these virtues or these attributes, then, um, you're,

00:15:20.820 you, you have dishonor and you experience shame. Um, one thing you talked about in the book that

00:15:25.620 really stuck out to me and I thought was both funny and interesting and just a way, way to describe

00:15:30.400 it was the opposite of honor and you call it flamboyant dishonor. Um, what do you mean by

00:15:36.400 flamboyant dishonor? And can you give an example of a man being flamboyantly dishonorable?

00:15:41.340 Well, you know, as you said, yeah, being, honor is really about caring about your reputation as a

00:15:50.080 man with other men. And I think that, you know, that gets very abstract in a big society, uh, you

00:15:56.040 know, in a tribal society, it makes a lot of sense in a big society. Well, who is your group? You know,

00:16:01.380 is it, who is it, is it everyone? Is it, uh, I mean, cause you can't, you know, you can't care about

00:16:07.360 what everyone thinks, but I think, you know, for the average man, even today, I mean, it's,

00:16:13.020 it's more about what people around you think. What, what did your friends think? What is your

00:16:18.340 group of men think? What I think more importantly, what are the group of men that you want to belong

00:16:23.280 to? What do they think? You know, what kind of man that you want to be, that's kind of your group

00:16:28.380 of men. So, you know, I think that, uh, I don't know, like, you know, dishonor means dramatically

00:16:36.940 failing at being what a man means in that group. You know, when we think of a man as being dishonored,

00:16:43.920 we think of him as being ashamed. And, uh, you know, the positive of that is that, uh, you know,

00:16:50.780 this thread of shame and dishonor motivates us to try harder and to do better, to be better men

00:16:56.400 because we value the opinions of other men. And, uh, you know, I think that the opposite of honor

00:17:02.900 is to be shameless about your failures as a man. You know, you're saying, I don't care if you guys

00:17:10.840 don't think that I'm manly. And, uh, you know, a lot of people will make that heroic today, but I

00:17:18.200 think that it's, it's kind of a, kind of a cop out. You know, it's, it's really easy to not care what

00:17:22.460 other men think about you. You know, it's really easy to be like, I'll just do whatever I want and

00:17:26.720 be myself. And, you know, that's not really that rebellious. It's just kind of, you know,

00:17:30.760 it kind of liberates you from having standards. And, uh, you know, so I think that, you know,

00:17:37.420 when you, you know, when you are trying not to be manly, if you're making a big show of it,

00:17:47.140 and I think this is different from saying that, uh, you know, men who are just simply

00:17:54.220 not very manly, I don't think that that's flamboyantly dishonorable. Um, I think that

00:18:00.120 that's just, you know, okay, they're not very manly, you know, and I, and that's, but I think

00:18:04.420 what I mean by is the opposite of honor as being a flamboyantly dishonorable is men who make a big

00:18:11.400 show of it. And I think in any group, I mean, you know, you know, if you're running around saying,

00:18:18.780 you know, dressing like a woman or acting like a woman or, you know, openly rejecting kind of what

00:18:25.140 most men would expect from you and making a big show of it, you know, cause you want attention for 1.00

00:18:31.360 that. Then I think that's the opposite of honor. You're basically saying, I don't care about being

00:18:37.140 part of this male group. And, uh, you know, I think, I think men are kind of reasonable to kind

00:18:45.620 of mock and shun men who say, Hey, I don't care what you think. Yeah. You know, cause you're kind

00:18:50.700 of, it's kind of this kind of passive aggression, really. You're, you're saying, I don't care what

00:18:56.360 you think really loud. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, why would you want those guys around? You know,

00:19:02.060 it doesn't make any sense. And I think that, you know, men get a lot of flack for ejecting men who

00:19:07.280 don't act like men in their group should, but you know, why would you want those guys around? And,

00:19:14.020 uh, you know, I think that, you know, another, you know, we can talk about that, you know, in terms of

00:19:20.160 femininity, or you can also talk about, you know, men who go out of their way to reject codes of

00:19:26.300 masculinity in kind of an intellectual way. Uh, you know, meaning a lot, a lot of feminists who 1.00

00:19:32.040 are basically making a big show of saying, I'm a feminist. I care more about what women think 0.98

00:19:37.640 than what men think, what men think is stupid and what women think is good. And so if you're saying 0.99

00:19:43.980 that again, I think that men have every right to be like, yeah, well, you don't want to be part of

00:19:48.620 our group. You're, we hate you. We don't like you. Why would, why would he want you around? 0.95

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00:20:55.180 Yeah. And I think it's interesting too, at the same time, they're making a big deal like,

00:21:00.880 okay, I reject this idea of manliness or manhood that you have there. And by doing that, I'm

00:21:07.260 actually more manlier than you.

00:21:09.540 I know. It's so tricky. It's like they're doing the same thing. It's like they're still

00:21:14.900 trying to outman us, but in rejecting masculinity. So it's like they aren't really even in contradiction

00:21:23.200 with anything I'm saying. They're still trying to outman us.

00:21:26.560 Yeah. And I think it's interesting when guys, they say they don't care about it, but at the

00:21:29.980 same time, you can tell they still do because they go out of their way of saying, yeah, I'm 0.99

00:21:35.720 more of a man than you because I don't believe this stupid, archaic idea of masculinity. 1.00

00:21:40.860 Yeah. I mean, I looked into it, like, you know, like if you look at someone like Michael 1.00

00:21:45.640 Kimmel, like he makes this, he frames everything that other men do in terms of fear.

00:21:50.940 Yeah.

00:21:51.780 You know, like I think I wrote a quote from him the other day about saying that, you

00:21:56.080 know, the primary emotion of manliness is anxiety, you know, because you can never be

00:22:03.400 good enough. Yeah. And while that is true, because that's what standards are, you know,

00:22:07.880 that's, you know, at the same time, he becomes heroic in framing other men as being fearful,

00:22:15.700 you know, because he's conquered his fear where really he's just being himself, you know,

00:22:19.340 but, you know, there are a lot of guys like that who want to make you believe that they've

00:22:23.700 conquered their fear and are manlier than you because they don't care about being manly,

00:22:28.880 which is kind of fun.

00:22:29.940 Yeah. And like shame is bad. And that's another thing too. Like any type of shame is like toxic.

00:22:35.760 You know, I mean, I guess I could say there's like some type of shame I can see like, okay,

00:22:38.580 yeah, you shouldn't really feel bad about that, but there's like certain things you got to have

00:22:41.140 standards. Like, or you're saying like, you got to live up to that. And, uh, it's okay to

00:22:45.100 experience some shame because shame compels you to improve yourself. Right. That's, that's where,

00:22:50.100 that's why we evolved that, that feeling. And like, it seems like a lot of these guys too,

00:22:54.320 just like, they're kind of shifting the goalpost of masculinity or manhood. Um, absolutely. Like

00:22:59.720 they, they still want to be considered a man or masculine or whatever, but they don't, they

00:23:04.320 can't live up to that standard that you, you know, maybe a strength or being courageous or

00:23:08.720 having mastery. So they, they just tweak it a little. And so like, okay, being a man or being

00:23:13.080 manly means this. And, uh, but like you're moving the goalpost forward. So it's not, not that

00:23:18.240 impressive. Yeah, no, it's a, it's a Nietzschean for sentiment. You're, you're taking the strong

00:23:24.300 and making it weak and the weak and making it strong. So, yeah. All right. So great stuff. I

00:23:29.160 mean, definitely, um, people need to read that some great insights about honor there. Um, so,

00:23:35.820 okay. You mentioned earlier that, okay. We're most of these guys that are working as clerks or

00:23:41.360 doing, you know, information entry at a cubicle and as you Walmart, we love you. Yeah, exactly.

00:23:50.500 Idiocracy. Yeah. And, uh, um, and as I read this book, like, you know, it definitely like

00:23:57.160 it stirs something with you. Like, man, that is like, I want to do this. Like, this is, this

00:24:00.860 is awesome. But at the same time, you're like, wait a minute. Like you realize that modern

00:24:05.360 Western society isn't very friendly to these tactical virtues anymore. In fact, we go out

00:24:11.340 out of a way to sort of sometimes punish it, like you said, like, uh, in some cases, but

00:24:17.080 at the best sort of diminish them. Um, so is it possible to live the tactical virtues of

00:24:24.580 manliness in our modern, um, culture? Well, uh, you know, we can do the best we can. Uh,

00:24:36.260 this, it's absolutely correct to say that, you know, modern Western modernity is at odds

00:24:44.660 with, uh, tactical masculinity because it is, uh, basically, uh, our level of civilization

00:24:52.260 means outsourcing the job of working on the perimeter as a, uh, you know, as a fighting

00:24:59.300 man that we outsource that to very, very, very tiny percentage of men. Whereas, you know,

00:25:05.440 if we were in smaller groups, a larger percentage of us would have that job. Yeah. But in this

00:25:13.180 giant, you know, as global group now, I think the UN actually has done its first real mission

00:25:19.440 as its own army, which is kind of creepy, but, but, uh, you know, as a, as a global group,

00:25:26.900 you know, there's only this tiny class of men who are going to be allowed to do this.

00:25:31.060 Like, and it's even, even in the military, it's only like a percentage of a percentage

00:25:34.960 of a percentage, you know, like, uh, who, who even get to, you know, ever shoot at anyone,

00:25:41.040 you know? So it's, it's, uh, it really is at odds. And so I think it, you know, in a society

00:25:48.440 where everyone's kind of on the same page, I think, you know, that gets channeled into

00:25:52.580 things like sports and so forth. Uh, but even that's becoming increasingly stigmatized.

00:25:58.660 And so we're like, you know, getting in a smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller

00:26:01.880 box. And I don't really see any way to change that without kind of refiguring what society

00:26:08.800 is. So, I mean, I think, yeah. Sort of like wiping the slate clean in some ways. I mean,

00:26:14.080 you have to do that. Yeah. I mean, I mean, unfortunately, I mean, you know, I, I just don't

00:26:18.580 see a way out because I think that, uh, you know, our, our society is kind of run by big

00:26:23.580 money and nothing is more disruptive to big money than angry young men. Yeah. You know,

00:26:31.320 men who are creative running around, creating trouble, being tribal, uh, you know, doing

00:26:35.420 their thing that, you know, that's very disruptive and, uh, you know, you know, supply chains get

00:26:42.920 messed with and, you know, people make less profit and we wouldn't want that. Yeah. So,

00:26:47.160 I mean, as long as, you know, we kind of still organize our society by this kind of giant

00:26:51.880 financialized globalist mess, I think that, uh, masculinity will actually be increasingly 0.80

00:26:58.480 stigmatized. Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, I get, I get interviewed a lot by reporters and

00:27:03.400 podcasts and they always, they always ask me like, what's wrong with men today? And, you know,

00:27:07.660 you know, they're looking for like, you know, a pretty short answer, like, oh, it's feminism or 1.00

00:27:11.740 it's like, it's the economy or it's video games. I mean, they want something, right?

00:27:15.980 It's all of those things. Yeah. It's like, really, it's like modern life. It's like modern

00:27:19.800 Western society has done it. And, um, and yeah, it's just, it's just these virtues,

00:27:25.480 like you said, aren't applicable in this, this life. And I think it's interesting that,

00:27:29.540 you know, lately there's, there's been this like appeal and draw to like end of world things and

00:27:34.760 like zombies and like the walking dead. And like, you watch those movies and like those things you

00:27:40.360 talk about in your book, mastery, courage, strength, like those are the things that keep people alive.

00:27:46.460 Um, and like, and people are obsessed with it. Like they want a zombie apocalypse, right? I mean,

00:27:52.140 there's, it's like everybody's secret popular fantasy now. Yeah. And I think it's because a

00:27:57.980 lot of guys feel like I want to be able to experience that, right? Like I want to experience

00:28:02.100 those primal, those primal virtues or attributes inside of me. One day as a lion. Yeah, exactly.

00:28:08.940 What's that one quote? Like, you know, every man like wants to lift the black flag and like slit 0.56

00:28:12.700 throats or something like there's some, yeah, yeah. It's a Minkin quote. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think

00:28:17.200 that's kind of, I think every guy's got that in him a little bit, a little bit. Yeah. Um, okay. So

00:28:22.660 this is kind of related. Um, you talk about, I thought it was a really funny description. Um,

00:28:26.960 but it kind of, uh, I think that's a good job of describing what Western society is like 0.85

00:28:31.140 is the Bonobos masturbation society. Um, what do you mean by that? And how has the Bonobos

00:28:38.220 masturbation society, um, been detrimental to the way of men? Well, you know, as we, as

00:28:45.900 we discussed, there, there aren't really a lot of, uh, outlets for masculinity in modern

00:28:50.040 culture. And so, you know, everything we do is kind of simulated, you know, it's a simulated

00:28:55.180 version in the way that masturbation is simulation of sex. You know, uh, what we do, you know, all 0.82

00:29:02.080 of our forms of masculinity are, are kind of simulated, you know, sports is a simulation of

00:29:06.720 war. Yeah. You know, I mean, everything we do is kind of, we don't really need to do

00:29:11.280 it because we need to do it. We do it because it makes us feel good. Yeah. You know? So

00:29:17.140 I mean like, you know, yeah, we can go out and learn how to hunt, but we don't have to

00:29:21.320 and we can learn how to fight, but we'll probably never have to. And, and so everything is very

00:29:28.360 masturbatory. And so like to really experience authentic masculinity, you know, you really need 0.93

00:29:35.080 that, you know, that need to do it. There has to be like this overwhelming need, you know,

00:29:41.160 you have to feel like your role is actually necessary because everything outside of that

00:29:45.720 is just you basically playing a video game of life. Yeah. You know, and that's, that's what

00:29:50.940 we're all doing. I think, uh, you know, as, as much as, you know, we try to prepare ourselves

00:29:56.320 for possibly the zombie apocalypse, you know, uh, you know, until we, until the, until the

00:30:02.960 zombies rise from the dead, you know, we, we're still left with, okay, where I'm just

00:30:08.080 going outside and playing with guns now, you know? Uh, so, I mean, I think that that, and

00:30:12.920 I think we all know that and I think it's kind of depressing and I think it, you know,

00:30:15.760 it, it's, uh, you know, I think a lot of men just, you know, have a hard time dealing

00:30:22.620 with that. It becomes like, what's the point? Yeah. You know? Yeah. So, you know, there's

00:30:27.240 a real lack of that. And I think that, you know, if we broke up into smaller societies

00:30:30.900 in some way, I think that, uh, life would become a lot more meaningful. I don't, you

00:30:35.800 know, our society is always, you know, organized around longer life and more people and, and

00:30:41.660 more consumption and all that. But I think that, you know, smaller is better, I think for

00:30:46.420 men in many cases. Yeah. Um, I, I totally agree. Cause that's something I've been thinking

00:30:50.520 a lot about lately is the idea of, and I think this kind of relates to my next question.

00:30:55.060 Um, cause you argue that the way of men is the way of the gang. Um, that's a pretty loaded

00:31:01.400 phrase cause people are saying, Oh, gangs, gangs are bad. Um, but, um, what do you mean

00:31:06.320 by that? Cause I think you have, uh, it kind of really ties in with what you've been talking

00:31:09.540 about. What do you mean by the way of men is the way of the gang? Well, I mean, you know,

00:31:14.540 it's, it's obviously meant to be a little bit controversial, uh, you know, uh, but I mean,

00:31:19.960 really this idea of, you know, what we've been talking about, the tactical virtues and

00:31:24.440 the survival gang. And I think, you know, the, the way of men are, you know, are what

00:31:30.160 manliness is, is really defined by what that survival gang needs and, uh, you know, has

00:31:35.880 needed throughout history and, and whatever. And you see that in areas where the state is

00:31:42.600 weak or, you know, which could be an inner city ghetto or it could be, you know, Africa or Brazil

00:31:51.820 or, you know, men start to break into gangs. And, uh, then all of a sudden they are living that

00:32:00.680 primal role again. And, uh, I don't mean to say that. I think that that's going to be pretty.

00:32:07.080 Uh, I don't think that that's ever pretty. I mean, I think that, uh, you know, that can

00:32:12.220 get, you know, that means people are going to get hurt for no reason. It means, you know,

00:32:17.940 a lot of things that are not ideal, but then again, you know, it's like, I think we're missing

00:32:23.900 as we were talking about, I think we're missing our narrative of life that kind of gives us a

00:32:28.000 sense of meaning. And, uh, you know, without that struggle in manliness is kind of masturbatory. 0.93

00:32:34.860 And so, I mean, you know, if you look at areas like Mexico, you know, all of a sudden you have,

00:32:40.700 you know, gangs rule large portions of Mexico and then you'll have, you know, community gangs

00:32:49.020 where the, the, you know, cause the police aren't really worth anything. And so you have

00:32:53.040 gangs of, you know, guys who just want to protect their families standing up to the big gangs.

00:32:57.860 Yeah. And, and so, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be destructive, you know,

00:33:04.360 innately. It can be, as we would say, men who are good men, you know, standing up as gangs. But,

00:33:10.620 you know, as you know, I think that, uh, you know, uh, the walking dead does really good, uh,

00:33:16.240 job of handling the fact that the more survival becomes a question, the more morality becomes

00:33:22.040 an issue. And it becomes almost this kind of Machiavellian situation where I can only care

00:33:28.200 about our tribe. I can't care. I can't, I mean, one of the biggest problems with modernity is that

00:33:33.500 is universal morality. And there's no way to be universally good to everybody.

00:33:41.320 You know, you have to, you have to sooner or later make choices about my people, your people,

00:33:47.680 you know, my family, your family, you know, and, and do what's best for the people who you've

00:33:52.920 chosen to align yourself with. And so that's, that's your gang. Yeah. You know, to a certain

00:33:58.120 extent. Okay. Uh, so, um, guys are listening to their podcast. You're like, man, yeah, I feel

00:34:04.020 this. Like I'm, I, I want that something like they're listening to this. Like, yeah, I want to,

00:34:07.120 I want to experience the way of men. Like I, I totally resonate with that. I'm tired of my desk

00:34:12.020 job. Um, what can these guys do right now, um, to start living the way of men? I mean, 0.86

00:34:18.640 just sort of like small things that just, I mean, it's tough. Like we talked about sort of like a

00:34:22.320 catch 22. We live in modern society where these attributes aren't welcome, but what can they do to

00:34:27.600 sort of, to start experiencing it, but not in the masturbatory way? That's the, that's the catch,

00:34:31.940 I guess. Right. I guess it's always kind of in a masturbatory way until, until there's a gun to your

00:34:36.720 head. It's always kind of a masturbatory way, but I mean, uh, you know, I think that a start and I 0.98

00:34:43.340 get this question a lot. I mean, a start, you know, like how do I change that thing? How do I,

00:34:49.000 this, I understand what you're saying is right, but how do I change? And I think that the first

00:34:53.840 step in many cases is just, you know, a lot of these guys don't have a lot of male friends.

00:34:59.020 Mm-hmm. And I think that's really important. I mean, if you put men in a group, the way of the

00:35:04.500 gang happens, you know, that hierarchy starts to form and you get those kinds of interactions and

00:35:10.340 it's an organic thing because it's, it's the most natural thing in the world. But, uh, you know,

00:35:15.320 you have to get men in a group with just men and then all that happens. Uh, you know, so I think that,

00:35:21.240 you know, striving to create a situation where that can, can happen is, uh, something you want to

00:35:28.220 look for. And, and I also think that, uh, you know, if you see men as we were talking about men

00:35:34.340 who, yeah, I want to be a little bit like that, you got to spend more time with that guy. Yeah.

00:35:40.500 Cause it'll rub off. Yeah. You know, like, uh, I mean, I, there's this guy, uh, at this, uh,

00:35:46.640 powerlifting gym that I was going to about a year ago. And, uh, he just has everything together.

00:35:52.800 Dude sets world records in, in lifting. He runs a business, owns a gym, has a wife, has kids,

00:36:01.440 builds cars in his off time. Yeah. He's just got it together. Yeah. You know, he's really a

00:36:08.640 successful, he's just a better human being than I am. And, uh, you know, so, you know, like whenever

00:36:14.580 I got to be around him, it's like, I want to absorb that vibe. Yeah. I want to be more like that guy.

00:36:19.320 And I think that, uh, you know, we have to, I mean, that's what you want to do. I mean,

00:36:24.380 you want to surround yourself with men who aren't the men who are maybe always beneath you are going

00:36:29.400 to flatter your ego, but maybe the men who are more like you want to be. Yeah. I think that's a lot.

00:36:34.340 I think that's like a tough thing because of your, I think our society encourages like the opposite of

00:36:40.680 like putting, surrounding yourself with like people beneath you. Cause you want to satisfy that ego.

00:36:45.340 Well, everyone likes to have their ego stroke. Yeah. So I guess it takes some humility.

00:36:49.320 To say like, yeah, I'm not, I'm not as manly as I want to be. Here's what I got to do. If I want

00:36:54.840 to be like that. I think humility is a good virtue for men to have, you know, for sure. Um, so here's

00:37:01.380 a bonus question. Cause I'd like to, it's kind of more for me personally, but I'm sure all your readers

00:37:05.460 would be interested too. So you've written and done a lot of research about, uh, masculinity.

00:37:10.800 Are there any books you recommend in particular that guys pick up to gain more insight into the way of

00:37:16.140 men? Well, gosh, I think you're reading this is ahead of mine, but, but I think we've read a lot

00:37:22.980 of the same books. Yeah, I think so. I mean, a lot of, I mean, a lot of our talk about, uh, you know,

00:37:27.760 uh, honor, I think it was informed by James Bowman's book on honor. I think that was a really important

00:37:34.200 book. Um, I really liked the book, uh, uh, shop classes, soul craft. Oh yeah. I wrote a post about

00:37:42.620 that last week. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's, that's, that's really good at taking apart

00:37:48.700 modernity and work and kind of the meaningless of it for us and for everyone really. I mean,

00:37:53.140 you know, this lack of agency that we have, I mean, I think that'll really get people thinking

00:37:57.920 in a similar direction. Um, let me see here. Just kind of looking at my bookshelf. Uh, uh, the,

00:38:06.520 you know, I dug out a book. If you want to look at the, you know, the way feminism deals with men, 1.00

00:38:12.460 and, and if you really want to kind of have laid bare the same messages that we get every day,

00:38:18.600 uh, I dug out a book from the seventies, uh, called, uh, the 49% majority.

00:38:26.700 And it's something that Michael Kimmel sites all the time in every book that he's ever written.

00:38:32.160 And, uh, he, it's, it basically, and I wrote about a little bit in my kind of free ebook that I have,

00:38:38.420 uh, called no man's land, but it's, if you look at the messages that we get from the modern media

00:38:45.180 every day, and I have a Google alert set up for masculinity and every time it is mentioned,

00:38:50.000 it is about re-imagining masculinity and how we can change masculinity and everything. There's

00:38:55.220 almost nothing good ever said about masculinity in mainstream media. And it's all these messages

00:38:59.860 that we get every day. We're really written about in the seventies in this book, the 49% majority,

00:39:05.880 it was kind of one of the first pro-feminist male books out there and, uh, written by men about,

00:39:13.580 about their kind of anger with their, you know, their baby boomers writing about their anger with 0.98

00:39:17.860 their kind of world war two dads who were too mean to them and whatever. And it's all this kind of

00:39:22.960 anger that these guys had. And, and I think it really captures it and it captures how emotional

00:39:28.140 it is because now it's been refined and the message has been kind of refined and adopted by the UN

00:39:33.740 and all kinds of things. But, uh, you know, it really captures this kind of just raw. My dad was

00:39:39.440 mean to me and therefore masculinity is dumb. And I'm going to my room. Exactly. Exactly. So, 0.99

00:39:47.300 you know, I think that that, that's a really big eye opener. I mean, it's, it's not, it's not reprinted.

00:39:52.420 You have to get vintage copies, you know, but, uh, it's out there. And I think it's kind of a real

00:39:56.860 eye opener. If you want to look at what the media is saying and see where it comes from.

00:40:01.820 Interesting stuff. Okay. I'll have to check that. I haven't read that. So I'll have to check it out.

00:40:04.940 Yeah. If Michael Kimmel quotes it all the time, then. Oh yeah. It must be good, right?

00:40:11.020 All right, man. Well, Jack, it's been a pleasure talking to you. Thanks so much. Um,

00:40:15.080 I recommend my readers go out and pick up the book. Um, some very interesting insights. Uh,

00:40:19.200 you might not agree with everything, but Jack's going to make you think when you read this book and

00:40:23.440 that's awesome. So Jack, thank you very much. Thank you so much. Our guest today was Jack

00:40:28.960 Donovan. Jack is the author of the book, the way of men, and you can find that on amazon.com.

00:40:35.820 Well, that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,

00:40:41.000 make sure to check out the art of manliness website at art of manliness.com. And until next time,

00:40:46.200 stay manly.

00:40:53.440 Okay.

00:41:09.160 Hmm.

00:41:09.340 Hmm.

00:41:11.220 Hmm.

00:41:12.000 Hmm.

00:41:12.360 Hmm.

The Art of Manliness - April 04, 2014

Episode #49： The Way Of Men With Jack Donovan

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