Episode #49： The Way Of Men With Jack Donovan
Episode Stats
Summary
Jack Donovan, author of The Way of Men, sets out to give a universal definition of manliness in his new book, The Way Of Men . In this episode of the podcast, we talk with Jack about what he thinks are the universal tactical virtues that make up manliness.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. Now, a question
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we've attempted to answer on the Art of Manliness is what is manliness? And as our guest points
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out today in the podcast, that is one of the hardest easy questions to answer because I think
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a lot of people think they know what it is. They have an idea of what it is, but when pressed
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to give an answer, they fumble a lot and they can't come up with something articulate or concise.
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But our guest today in his new book sets out to give a universal definition of manliness.
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His name is Jack Donovan. He's the author of the book, The Way of Men. And in today's podcast,
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we're going to talk about what is the way of men? What is manliness? And he's also going to share
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what he thinks are the universal tactical virtues of manliness. Really interesting discussion. So
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stay tuned. All right. Well, Jack Donovan, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me.
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All right. So your book, The Way of Men, came out about two years ago. Is that correct?
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Yeah. I think a little less than that. A little less than that. Well, I mean,
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it's one of the better books on masculinity that I've read. What I loved about it is that it challenges
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you. You know, you're not going to agree with everything, but you force the reader to like
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question their assumptions about things. And, uh, I had like mental debates with you, uh, while I was
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reading and even my wife, my wife, wife read the book and, um, she thought it was great too. And
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we'd have these like, okay, what did he mean by that? So kudos for that, for writing a challenging
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book like that. Thanks. Thanks. All right. So I'm going to start off by asking you a question that
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you asked me, uh, in writing this book, The Way of Men, because I think it sets up what the way of
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men is about. Um, so you asked me this question. I thought at the, at the time I thought it was
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super insightful and I still think it's a really insightful question. It is what's the difference
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between being a good man and being good at being a man? Um, so what is the difference between being
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a good man and being good at being a man? Well, yeah, that, that seems to have ended up being one
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of the big takeaways from the book, uh, that people, I think it's a really good separation.
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And, uh, basically the whole project of The Way of Men was to develop a universal definition of
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masculinity. And it seems like the question, what is masculinity is the hardest easy question
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for most men to answer. And I want to try to answer it. And, uh, as I listened to the other
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answers that men gave, I began to realize they were actually having two different conversations.
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And, uh, on one hand, they're talking about morality and about the moral virtues they attributed to men.
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And on the other hand, they're talking about something else, something older, something more
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primal. What it means to be a good man changes with religion and ideology. It changes a lot from
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society to society. It changes if you're a Muslim, changes if you're a pagan and atheist, changes if you're
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a capitalist or a communist, changes if you're rich or poor. But I wanted to, uh, react to something
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else. I think we react to something else when we talk to other men and we just kind of are in their
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presence. And I think we identified as manliness and I wanted to figure out what that is. And, uh,
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so I think we can look at a man and have a reaction to him and no matter what his culture
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or social class he comes from and get a sense of what being manly is. And, uh, you can have this
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really good guy, you know, a really nice guy who does all the right things and he maybe doesn't come
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off as being manly at all. And then you can also have a man who is a real jerk and still recognize
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him as manlier than the good guy. One of the people, one of the questions that people like from the book
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is, uh, is, uh, is Darth Vader unmanly? And, uh, you know, if you like Batman and you think he's
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doing the right thing, does that mean that Bane is unmanly? And I don't, I don't really think that
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you can say Bane is really unmanly and, and be honest with yourself. I just, I don't, so I wanted
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to figure out what else was there. What are we reacting to? Uh, you know, in the way it meant I wanted
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to figure out what we recognize in men as manliness, whether they're good men or bad men,
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morally speaking, when we think about being a man, and I mean, being good at being a man
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outside of morality or religion or political ideology, I came to the conclusion that we're
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identifying traits that in other men would make them more successful in a survival situation.
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Being good at being a man has a high value to us today because it had a high value to our
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ancestors as they were struggling to survive. Men who are stronger, more athletic, men who are
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strategically smarter, men who are more skillful, more daring, more adept at doing the things that
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were required specifically of men who were fighting to survive, they were going to be idolized by other
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men, followed by other men, emulated by other men. And we still do that with the sports hero,
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for instance, though, uh, sadly, most of us only seem to do that with warriors if they are actors
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playing warriors in a movie. So whether we're talking about being good men or bad men, however,
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we define who is good or bad. I think that being good at being a man is about demonstrating and
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embodying the qualities that would have made our primal ancestors valuable members of a fighting group.
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In the way of man, I called those qualities tactical values or tactical virtues, sorry, uh,
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So I love that point. Cause like, I think you're onto something cause I, I,
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I've recognized that too. Like there's like guys that I, I, I necessarily don't think they're good
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guys, but like, I'm like, man, that guy is really manly. Like that guy is masculine. He's got some
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sort of energy or, uh, through most about him that just like exudes Matt like that. I want to be like
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that guy in some ways, even though he's not that good of a dude. Um, and I think, I guess you're
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right. You're hitting on the nail. So being good at being a man is sort of this primal masculinity,
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what made our ancestors successful as men thousands of years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so,
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okay. You talk about these tactical virtues, um, honor, strength, mastery, courage. Um,
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so how did you decide on these for me? It was it, you, you, you alluded to that it's, um, these are
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the virtues or attributes that made men successful, but how did you determine that those were the ones
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and was it through research or reading or just thinking about it? What was it?
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Well, I think a lot of it's a thought problem. I mean, uh, you know, I started trying to breaking
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things into categories and, you know, when you talk about masculinity and men talk about this all
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the time, uh, you know, it becomes, is this masculine? Is this not masculine? Is this manly?
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Is this not manly? And this is ongoing debate forever and ever. And I wanted to try and figure
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out how do you answer that? And that, that, you know, how do you answer, is this manly? Is this
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unmanly? And, uh, you know, at first, you know, I looked at the qualities that make men most
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different from most women. And that's an important way to say that because difference between the
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sexes aren't about absolutes. They're about majority trends. You know, it's like the easiest
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one is strength. Men are stronger than women. Every man is not stronger than every woman, but,
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uh, most men are stronger than most women. So strength is a defining characteristic of men,
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whether you're talking about good men or bad men. And, uh, stronger men have a higher value in a
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survival group than weaker men. The idea that men should be strong still comes from that. It's just
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not, it's not, you know, people want to make it like it's some kind of arbitrary social programming
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that we get from the media. And, you know, I think it's much, much older and much deeper than that.
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And, uh, you know, the same thing with courage, you know, men tend to be willing to take more risks
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than women. It gets us into a lot of trouble today. Uh, you know, that's why, you know, men are
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pulled over more for speeding and all kinds of things. But, uh, you know, it's, it's a good thing
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for a group, if not always for the individual in a primal band of hunters and fighters, you know,
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you need people who are willing to take risks and spear that angry boar. So, uh, you know, I go into
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obviously deeper explanations for all the virtues in the book. You know, we don't really have time to get
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into all that now. So, you know, if your listeners want to check that out, that'd be cool.
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Sure. I thought mastery was a really interesting one because I wouldn't have thought that, but
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what do you mean by that? Kind of just briefly?
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Well, it was just kind of a missing hole in the, in the puzzle. You know, as I was trying to put
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together these virtues, you know, a mastery, you know, without, without some kind of mastery,
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strength and courage are kind of ridiculous. You know, they don't, unless you're competent,
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you know, you can be as strong and daring as possible, but you know, you're not really going
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to achieve anything. And I think that that's something that men judge each other on constantly
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and very harshly. And, you know, not to disparage women, but you know, when you talk to, to,
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I think women are much more comfortable being like, oh my God, I'm totally not good at that.
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Yeah. You know, whereas men want to be good at everything. Yeah. You know, they want to be
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good at, you know, they don't want to admit they aren't good at things. And I think that that's the
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reason is because, you know, men judge each other by how good they are at doing the job that they need
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to do. Yeah. I thought it was interesting in my research about the history of bachelorhood in the
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United States, like in the 1600s, like you weren't considered a man unless you, people thought of
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you as being a master and not necessarily meant like being a man, having slaves, but like you had
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mastery of yourself, mastery of life. Like you, you had it, you had your stuff together. You can
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contribute to society. And so, yeah, when I read that, then I read your section, like, wow, that's,
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that's a really good insight that you got there. And we've kind of, I guess we've kind of lost that
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idea of men, you know, valuing men for their mastery, uh, in a particular skill set or whatever.
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Um, cause you really don't talk about, we really don't talk about that that much anymore today's
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society. No, at least not using those words. I mean, I think that, I think that we all look at,
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you know, a guy who really has his stuff together and we're like, I want to be more like that.
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And in talking to me, you mentioned how, um, you know, sometimes we think of these virtues as,
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or these tactical virtues as these like social conditioning. And I think it is really primal
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because it's still like, even today, even though, um, we not, we might not place an emphasis
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as a society on these, these attributes or these virtues, like people or men get really touchy.
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If you like call them weak or you say they're a chicken or they're yellow, right? They get, I mean,
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even like, even if like the most, not very manly guy will still kind of that, that stings for some
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reason. Coward is a fighting word. Yeah. You know, it's still a fighting word for men. And you
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know, it's not something that I think women really react to like what? Yeah. Okay. You know, but yeah,
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for men, you call a man a coward. That's yeah. Yeah. Not good. So what are the consequences of for men
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and society in general for not living by these tactical virtues? Is it a malaise? Is it bad for
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I mean, what, what's, I mean, what, what do we get out of living these out of living these four tactical
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virtues? Well, I mean, I think because we are kind of primarily, uh, set up, you know, primarily,
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we're kind of wired, uh, to want to display these things. So I think when we don't get an opportunity
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to, to do these things, I think, uh, you know, yeah, there is a malaise there. There is a little
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bit of, uh, depression. I think, you know, I think it, a lot of men feel like they're lacking
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direction and lacking things to do. I mean, we're not really designed to, you know, you see this with
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boys who were, you know, they, they, uh, get diagnosis of being hyperactive in school because
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we're not really designed to sit in a chair all day. That's not, you know, that's not what our
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ancestors did. You know, some of us are better at the others, you know, and they can find their own
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way through that. But, uh, you know, we're not really, we're not ever designed for that. And I
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think that, you know, you know, while people at kind of the top of society have the opportunities
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to, you know, they'll sit in, you know, be investment bankers all day and then go climb
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Everest because they have a million dollars to do it. I think for the mass of us, you're just,
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you know, creating a society of men that's disengaged because, you know, we're not getting a lot out of
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being customer service representatives, you know, that we're not really getting a lot of
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So I want to come back to that, like what we can do, um, kind of your solution. Cause you talk
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about that in the way of the men. Um, but before we get there, I want to talk about, uh, one of the
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virtues a little bit, uh, which is honor. And, um, because you did a really great job and we actually,
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you know, we wrote a big series about the history of traditional honor.
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Thank you. It was like the hardest thing we've ever written. I mean, it took seven months,
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I think. Uh, and just, so just for our reader or people who are listening, um, when we're talking
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about honor, we're not talking about honor in the modern sense. Um, because I think most people,
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when they hear honor, they think, Oh, it means integrity or like, you know, I'm being true to
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my personal values or whatever means whatever's good. Yeah. Whatever's good. Yeah, exactly. Um,
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you're talking about honor and we're talking about honor in the traditional sense, um, which what
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honor was for most of human history and is still what it means in some non-Western cultures. And
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that's basically what it comes down to is your reputation as a man, right? Your reputation,
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your reputation, you would say, and in living these four tactical virtues, um, and it'd be like,
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that would be like the code of honor, right? The code of the way of men is you have to live up to
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these things. And if you don't live up to, uh, these virtues or these attributes, then, um, you're,
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you, you have dishonor and you experience shame. Um, one thing you talked about in the book that
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really stuck out to me and I thought was both funny and interesting and just a way, way to describe
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it was the opposite of honor and you call it flamboyant dishonor. Um, what do you mean by
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flamboyant dishonor? And can you give an example of a man being flamboyantly dishonorable?
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Well, you know, as you said, yeah, being, honor is really about caring about your reputation as a
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man with other men. And I think that, you know, that gets very abstract in a big society, uh, you
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know, in a tribal society, it makes a lot of sense in a big society. Well, who is your group? You know,
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is it, who is it, is it everyone? Is it, uh, I mean, cause you can't, you know, you can't care about
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what everyone thinks, but I think, you know, for the average man, even today, I mean, it's,
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it's more about what people around you think. What, what did your friends think? What is your
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group of men think? What I think more importantly, what are the group of men that you want to belong
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to? What do they think? You know, what kind of man that you want to be, that's kind of your group
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of men. So, you know, I think that, uh, I don't know, like, you know, dishonor means dramatically
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failing at being what a man means in that group. You know, when we think of a man as being dishonored,
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we think of him as being ashamed. And, uh, you know, the positive of that is that, uh, you know,
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this thread of shame and dishonor motivates us to try harder and to do better, to be better men
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because we value the opinions of other men. And, uh, you know, I think that the opposite of honor
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is to be shameless about your failures as a man. You know, you're saying, I don't care if you guys
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don't think that I'm manly. And, uh, you know, a lot of people will make that heroic today, but I
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think that it's, it's kind of a, kind of a cop out. You know, it's, it's really easy to not care what
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other men think about you. You know, it's really easy to be like, I'll just do whatever I want and
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be myself. And, you know, that's not really that rebellious. It's just kind of, you know,
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it kind of liberates you from having standards. And, uh, you know, so I think that, you know,
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when you, you know, when you are trying not to be manly, if you're making a big show of it,
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and I think this is different from saying that, uh, you know, men who are just simply
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not very manly, I don't think that that's flamboyantly dishonorable. Um, I think that
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that's just, you know, okay, they're not very manly, you know, and I, and that's, but I think
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what I mean by is the opposite of honor as being a flamboyantly dishonorable is men who make a big
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show of it. And I think in any group, I mean, you know, you know, if you're running around saying,
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you know, dressing like a woman or acting like a woman or, you know, openly rejecting kind of what
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most men would expect from you and making a big show of it, you know, cause you want attention for
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that. Then I think that's the opposite of honor. You're basically saying, I don't care about being
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part of this male group. And, uh, you know, I think, I think men are kind of reasonable to kind
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of mock and shun men who say, Hey, I don't care what you think. Yeah. You know, cause you're kind
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of, it's kind of this kind of passive aggression, really. You're, you're saying, I don't care what
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you think really loud. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, why would you want those guys around? You know,
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it doesn't make any sense. And I think that, you know, men get a lot of flack for ejecting men who
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don't act like men in their group should, but you know, why would you want those guys around? And,
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uh, you know, I think that, you know, another, you know, we can talk about that, you know, in terms of
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femininity, or you can also talk about, you know, men who go out of their way to reject codes of
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masculinity in kind of an intellectual way. Uh, you know, meaning a lot, a lot of feminists who
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are basically making a big show of saying, I'm a feminist. I care more about what women think
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than what men think, what men think is stupid and what women think is good. And so if you're saying
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that again, I think that men have every right to be like, yeah, well, you don't want to be part of
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our group. You're, we hate you. We don't like you. Why would, why would he want you around?
00:19:53.780
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Yeah. And I think it's interesting too, at the same time, they're making a big deal like,
00:21:00.880
okay, I reject this idea of manliness or manhood that you have there. And by doing that, I'm
00:21:09.540
I know. It's so tricky. It's like they're doing the same thing. It's like they're still
00:21:14.900
trying to outman us, but in rejecting masculinity. So it's like they aren't really even in contradiction
00:21:23.200
with anything I'm saying. They're still trying to outman us.
00:21:26.560
Yeah. And I think it's interesting when guys, they say they don't care about it, but at the
00:21:29.980
same time, you can tell they still do because they go out of their way of saying, yeah, I'm
00:21:35.720
more of a man than you because I don't believe this stupid, archaic idea of masculinity.
00:21:40.860
Yeah. I mean, I looked into it, like, you know, like if you look at someone like Michael
00:21:45.640
Kimmel, like he makes this, he frames everything that other men do in terms of fear.
00:21:51.780
You know, like I think I wrote a quote from him the other day about saying that, you
00:21:56.080
know, the primary emotion of manliness is anxiety, you know, because you can never be
00:22:03.400
good enough. Yeah. And while that is true, because that's what standards are, you know,
00:22:07.880
that's, you know, at the same time, he becomes heroic in framing other men as being fearful,
00:22:15.700
you know, because he's conquered his fear where really he's just being himself, you know,
00:22:19.340
but, you know, there are a lot of guys like that who want to make you believe that they've
00:22:23.700
conquered their fear and are manlier than you because they don't care about being manly,
00:22:29.940
Yeah. And like shame is bad. And that's another thing too. Like any type of shame is like toxic.
00:22:35.760
You know, I mean, I guess I could say there's like some type of shame I can see like, okay,
00:22:38.580
yeah, you shouldn't really feel bad about that, but there's like certain things you got to have
00:22:41.140
standards. Like, or you're saying like, you got to live up to that. And, uh, it's okay to
00:22:45.100
experience some shame because shame compels you to improve yourself. Right. That's, that's where,
00:22:50.100
that's why we evolved that, that feeling. And like, it seems like a lot of these guys too,
00:22:54.320
just like, they're kind of shifting the goalpost of masculinity or manhood. Um, absolutely. Like
00:22:59.720
they, they still want to be considered a man or masculine or whatever, but they don't, they
00:23:04.320
can't live up to that standard that you, you know, maybe a strength or being courageous or
00:23:08.720
having mastery. So they, they just tweak it a little. And so like, okay, being a man or being
00:23:13.080
manly means this. And, uh, but like you're moving the goalpost forward. So it's not, not that
00:23:18.240
impressive. Yeah, no, it's a, it's a Nietzschean for sentiment. You're, you're taking the strong
00:23:24.300
and making it weak and the weak and making it strong. So, yeah. All right. So great stuff. I
00:23:29.160
mean, definitely, um, people need to read that some great insights about honor there. Um, so,
00:23:35.820
okay. You mentioned earlier that, okay. We're most of these guys that are working as clerks or
00:23:41.360
doing, you know, information entry at a cubicle and as you Walmart, we love you. Yeah, exactly.
00:23:50.500
Idiocracy. Yeah. And, uh, um, and as I read this book, like, you know, it definitely like
00:23:57.160
it stirs something with you. Like, man, that is like, I want to do this. Like, this is, this
00:24:00.860
is awesome. But at the same time, you're like, wait a minute. Like you realize that modern
00:24:05.360
Western society isn't very friendly to these tactical virtues anymore. In fact, we go out
00:24:11.340
out of a way to sort of sometimes punish it, like you said, like, uh, in some cases, but
00:24:17.080
at the best sort of diminish them. Um, so is it possible to live the tactical virtues of
00:24:24.580
manliness in our modern, um, culture? Well, uh, you know, we can do the best we can. Uh,
00:24:36.260
this, it's absolutely correct to say that, you know, modern Western modernity is at odds
00:24:44.660
with, uh, tactical masculinity because it is, uh, basically, uh, our level of civilization
00:24:52.260
means outsourcing the job of working on the perimeter as a, uh, you know, as a fighting
00:24:59.300
man that we outsource that to very, very, very tiny percentage of men. Whereas, you know,
00:25:05.440
if we were in smaller groups, a larger percentage of us would have that job. Yeah. But in this
00:25:13.180
giant, you know, as global group now, I think the UN actually has done its first real mission
00:25:19.440
as its own army, which is kind of creepy, but, but, uh, you know, as a, as a global group,
00:25:26.900
you know, there's only this tiny class of men who are going to be allowed to do this.
00:25:31.060
Like, and it's even, even in the military, it's only like a percentage of a percentage
00:25:34.960
of a percentage, you know, like, uh, who, who even get to, you know, ever shoot at anyone,
00:25:41.040
you know? So it's, it's, uh, it really is at odds. And so I think it, you know, in a society
00:25:48.440
where everyone's kind of on the same page, I think, you know, that gets channeled into
00:25:52.580
things like sports and so forth. Uh, but even that's becoming increasingly stigmatized.
00:25:58.660
And so we're like, you know, getting in a smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller
00:26:01.880
box. And I don't really see any way to change that without kind of refiguring what society
00:26:08.800
is. So, I mean, I think, yeah. Sort of like wiping the slate clean in some ways. I mean,
00:26:14.080
you have to do that. Yeah. I mean, I mean, unfortunately, I mean, you know, I, I just don't
00:26:18.580
see a way out because I think that, uh, you know, our, our society is kind of run by big
00:26:23.580
money and nothing is more disruptive to big money than angry young men. Yeah. You know,
00:26:31.320
men who are creative running around, creating trouble, being tribal, uh, you know, doing
00:26:35.420
their thing that, you know, that's very disruptive and, uh, you know, you know, supply chains get
00:26:42.920
messed with and, you know, people make less profit and we wouldn't want that. Yeah. So,
00:26:47.160
I mean, as long as, you know, we kind of still organize our society by this kind of giant
00:26:51.880
financialized globalist mess, I think that, uh, masculinity will actually be increasingly
00:26:58.480
stigmatized. Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, I get, I get interviewed a lot by reporters and
00:27:03.400
podcasts and they always, they always ask me like, what's wrong with men today? And, you know,
00:27:07.660
you know, they're looking for like, you know, a pretty short answer, like, oh, it's feminism or
00:27:11.740
it's like, it's the economy or it's video games. I mean, they want something, right?
00:27:15.980
It's all of those things. Yeah. It's like, really, it's like modern life. It's like modern
00:27:19.800
Western society has done it. And, um, and yeah, it's just, it's just these virtues,
00:27:25.480
like you said, aren't applicable in this, this life. And I think it's interesting that,
00:27:29.540
you know, lately there's, there's been this like appeal and draw to like end of world things and
00:27:34.760
like zombies and like the walking dead. And like, you watch those movies and like those things you
00:27:40.360
talk about in your book, mastery, courage, strength, like those are the things that keep people alive.
00:27:46.460
Um, and like, and people are obsessed with it. Like they want a zombie apocalypse, right? I mean,
00:27:52.140
there's, it's like everybody's secret popular fantasy now. Yeah. And I think it's because a
00:27:57.980
lot of guys feel like I want to be able to experience that, right? Like I want to experience
00:28:02.100
those primal, those primal virtues or attributes inside of me. One day as a lion. Yeah, exactly.
00:28:08.940
What's that one quote? Like, you know, every man like wants to lift the black flag and like slit
00:28:12.700
throats or something like there's some, yeah, yeah. It's a Minkin quote. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think
00:28:17.200
that's kind of, I think every guy's got that in him a little bit, a little bit. Yeah. Um, okay. So
00:28:22.660
this is kind of related. Um, you talk about, I thought it was a really funny description. Um,
00:28:26.960
but it kind of, uh, I think that's a good job of describing what Western society is like
00:28:31.140
is the Bonobos masturbation society. Um, what do you mean by that? And how has the Bonobos
00:28:38.220
masturbation society, um, been detrimental to the way of men? Well, you know, as we, as
00:28:45.900
we discussed, there, there aren't really a lot of, uh, outlets for masculinity in modern
00:28:50.040
culture. And so, you know, everything we do is kind of simulated, you know, it's a simulated
00:28:55.180
version in the way that masturbation is simulation of sex. You know, uh, what we do, you know, all
00:29:02.080
of our forms of masculinity are, are kind of simulated, you know, sports is a simulation of
00:29:06.720
war. Yeah. You know, I mean, everything we do is kind of, we don't really need to do
00:29:11.280
it because we need to do it. We do it because it makes us feel good. Yeah. You know? So
00:29:17.140
I mean like, you know, yeah, we can go out and learn how to hunt, but we don't have to
00:29:21.320
and we can learn how to fight, but we'll probably never have to. And, and so everything is very
00:29:28.360
masturbatory. And so like to really experience authentic masculinity, you know, you really need
00:29:35.080
that, you know, that need to do it. There has to be like this overwhelming need, you know,
00:29:41.160
you have to feel like your role is actually necessary because everything outside of that
00:29:45.720
is just you basically playing a video game of life. Yeah. You know, and that's, that's what
00:29:50.940
we're all doing. I think, uh, you know, as, as much as, you know, we try to prepare ourselves
00:29:56.320
for possibly the zombie apocalypse, you know, uh, you know, until we, until the, until the
00:30:02.960
zombies rise from the dead, you know, we, we're still left with, okay, where I'm just
00:30:08.080
going outside and playing with guns now, you know? Uh, so, I mean, I think that that, and
00:30:12.920
I think we all know that and I think it's kind of depressing and I think it, you know,
00:30:15.760
it, it's, uh, you know, I think a lot of men just, you know, have a hard time dealing
00:30:22.620
with that. It becomes like, what's the point? Yeah. You know? Yeah. So, you know, there's
00:30:27.240
a real lack of that. And I think that, you know, if we broke up into smaller societies
00:30:30.900
in some way, I think that, uh, life would become a lot more meaningful. I don't, you
00:30:35.800
know, our society is always, you know, organized around longer life and more people and, and
00:30:41.660
more consumption and all that. But I think that, you know, smaller is better, I think for
00:30:46.420
men in many cases. Yeah. Um, I, I totally agree. Cause that's something I've been thinking
00:30:50.520
a lot about lately is the idea of, and I think this kind of relates to my next question.
00:30:55.060
Um, cause you argue that the way of men is the way of the gang. Um, that's a pretty loaded
00:31:01.400
phrase cause people are saying, Oh, gangs, gangs are bad. Um, but, um, what do you mean
00:31:06.320
by that? Cause I think you have, uh, it kind of really ties in with what you've been talking
00:31:09.540
about. What do you mean by the way of men is the way of the gang? Well, I mean, you know,
00:31:14.540
it's, it's obviously meant to be a little bit controversial, uh, you know, uh, but I mean,
00:31:19.960
really this idea of, you know, what we've been talking about, the tactical virtues and
00:31:24.440
the survival gang. And I think, you know, the, the way of men are, you know, are what
00:31:30.160
manliness is, is really defined by what that survival gang needs and, uh, you know, has
00:31:35.880
needed throughout history and, and whatever. And you see that in areas where the state is
00:31:42.600
weak or, you know, which could be an inner city ghetto or it could be, you know, Africa or Brazil
00:31:51.820
or, you know, men start to break into gangs. And, uh, then all of a sudden they are living that
00:32:00.680
primal role again. And, uh, I don't mean to say that. I think that that's going to be pretty.
00:32:07.080
Uh, I don't think that that's ever pretty. I mean, I think that, uh, you know, that can
00:32:12.220
get, you know, that means people are going to get hurt for no reason. It means, you know,
00:32:17.940
a lot of things that are not ideal, but then again, you know, it's like, I think we're missing
00:32:23.900
as we were talking about, I think we're missing our narrative of life that kind of gives us a
00:32:28.000
sense of meaning. And, uh, you know, without that struggle in manliness is kind of masturbatory.
00:32:34.860
And so, I mean, you know, if you look at areas like Mexico, you know, all of a sudden you have,
00:32:40.700
you know, gangs rule large portions of Mexico and then you'll have, you know, community gangs
00:32:49.020
where the, the, you know, cause the police aren't really worth anything. And so you have
00:32:53.040
gangs of, you know, guys who just want to protect their families standing up to the big gangs.
00:32:57.860
Yeah. And, and so, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be destructive, you know,
00:33:04.360
innately. It can be, as we would say, men who are good men, you know, standing up as gangs. But,
00:33:10.620
you know, as you know, I think that, uh, you know, uh, the walking dead does really good, uh,
00:33:16.240
job of handling the fact that the more survival becomes a question, the more morality becomes
00:33:22.040
an issue. And it becomes almost this kind of Machiavellian situation where I can only care
00:33:28.200
about our tribe. I can't care. I can't, I mean, one of the biggest problems with modernity is that
00:33:33.500
is universal morality. And there's no way to be universally good to everybody.
00:33:41.320
You know, you have to, you have to sooner or later make choices about my people, your people,
00:33:47.680
you know, my family, your family, you know, and, and do what's best for the people who you've
00:33:52.920
chosen to align yourself with. And so that's, that's your gang. Yeah. You know, to a certain
00:33:58.120
extent. Okay. Uh, so, um, guys are listening to their podcast. You're like, man, yeah, I feel
00:34:04.020
this. Like I'm, I, I want that something like they're listening to this. Like, yeah, I want to,
00:34:07.120
I want to experience the way of men. Like I, I totally resonate with that. I'm tired of my desk
00:34:12.020
job. Um, what can these guys do right now, um, to start living the way of men? I mean,
00:34:18.640
just sort of like small things that just, I mean, it's tough. Like we talked about sort of like a
00:34:22.320
catch 22. We live in modern society where these attributes aren't welcome, but what can they do to
00:34:27.600
sort of, to start experiencing it, but not in the masturbatory way? That's the, that's the catch,
00:34:31.940
I guess. Right. I guess it's always kind of in a masturbatory way until, until there's a gun to your
00:34:36.720
head. It's always kind of a masturbatory way, but I mean, uh, you know, I think that a start and I
00:34:43.340
get this question a lot. I mean, a start, you know, like how do I change that thing? How do I,
00:34:49.000
this, I understand what you're saying is right, but how do I change? And I think that the first
00:34:53.840
step in many cases is just, you know, a lot of these guys don't have a lot of male friends.
00:34:59.020
Mm-hmm. And I think that's really important. I mean, if you put men in a group, the way of the
00:35:04.500
gang happens, you know, that hierarchy starts to form and you get those kinds of interactions and
00:35:10.340
it's an organic thing because it's, it's the most natural thing in the world. But, uh, you know,
00:35:15.320
you have to get men in a group with just men and then all that happens. Uh, you know, so I think that,
00:35:21.240
you know, striving to create a situation where that can, can happen is, uh, something you want to
00:35:28.220
look for. And, and I also think that, uh, you know, if you see men as we were talking about men
00:35:34.340
who, yeah, I want to be a little bit like that, you got to spend more time with that guy. Yeah.
00:35:40.500
Cause it'll rub off. Yeah. You know, like, uh, I mean, I, there's this guy, uh, at this, uh,
00:35:46.640
powerlifting gym that I was going to about a year ago. And, uh, he just has everything together.
00:35:52.800
Dude sets world records in, in lifting. He runs a business, owns a gym, has a wife, has kids,
00:36:01.440
builds cars in his off time. Yeah. He's just got it together. Yeah. You know, he's really a
00:36:08.640
successful, he's just a better human being than I am. And, uh, you know, so, you know, like whenever
00:36:14.580
I got to be around him, it's like, I want to absorb that vibe. Yeah. I want to be more like that guy.
00:36:19.320
And I think that, uh, you know, we have to, I mean, that's what you want to do. I mean,
00:36:24.380
you want to surround yourself with men who aren't the men who are maybe always beneath you are going
00:36:29.400
to flatter your ego, but maybe the men who are more like you want to be. Yeah. I think that's a lot.
00:36:34.340
I think that's like a tough thing because of your, I think our society encourages like the opposite of
00:36:40.680
like putting, surrounding yourself with like people beneath you. Cause you want to satisfy that ego.
00:36:45.340
Well, everyone likes to have their ego stroke. Yeah. So I guess it takes some humility.
00:36:49.320
To say like, yeah, I'm not, I'm not as manly as I want to be. Here's what I got to do. If I want
00:36:54.840
to be like that. I think humility is a good virtue for men to have, you know, for sure. Um, so here's
00:37:01.380
a bonus question. Cause I'd like to, it's kind of more for me personally, but I'm sure all your readers
00:37:05.460
would be interested too. So you've written and done a lot of research about, uh, masculinity.
00:37:10.800
Are there any books you recommend in particular that guys pick up to gain more insight into the way of
00:37:16.140
men? Well, gosh, I think you're reading this is ahead of mine, but, but I think we've read a lot
00:37:22.980
of the same books. Yeah, I think so. I mean, a lot of, I mean, a lot of our talk about, uh, you know,
00:37:27.760
uh, honor, I think it was informed by James Bowman's book on honor. I think that was a really important
00:37:34.200
book. Um, I really liked the book, uh, uh, shop classes, soul craft. Oh yeah. I wrote a post about
00:37:42.620
that last week. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's, that's, that's really good at taking apart
00:37:48.700
modernity and work and kind of the meaningless of it for us and for everyone really. I mean,
00:37:53.140
you know, this lack of agency that we have, I mean, I think that'll really get people thinking
00:37:57.920
in a similar direction. Um, let me see here. Just kind of looking at my bookshelf. Uh, uh, the,
00:38:06.520
you know, I dug out a book. If you want to look at the, you know, the way feminism deals with men,
00:38:12.460
and, and if you really want to kind of have laid bare the same messages that we get every day,
00:38:18.600
uh, I dug out a book from the seventies, uh, called, uh, the 49% majority.
00:38:26.700
And it's something that Michael Kimmel sites all the time in every book that he's ever written.
00:38:32.160
And, uh, he, it's, it basically, and I wrote about a little bit in my kind of free ebook that I have,
00:38:38.420
uh, called no man's land, but it's, if you look at the messages that we get from the modern media
00:38:45.180
every day, and I have a Google alert set up for masculinity and every time it is mentioned,
00:38:50.000
it is about re-imagining masculinity and how we can change masculinity and everything. There's
00:38:55.220
almost nothing good ever said about masculinity in mainstream media. And it's all these messages
00:38:59.860
that we get every day. We're really written about in the seventies in this book, the 49% majority,
00:39:05.880
it was kind of one of the first pro-feminist male books out there and, uh, written by men about,
00:39:13.580
about their kind of anger with their, you know, their baby boomers writing about their anger with
00:39:17.860
their kind of world war two dads who were too mean to them and whatever. And it's all this kind of
00:39:22.960
anger that these guys had. And, and I think it really captures it and it captures how emotional
00:39:28.140
it is because now it's been refined and the message has been kind of refined and adopted by the UN
00:39:33.740
and all kinds of things. But, uh, you know, it really captures this kind of just raw. My dad was
00:39:39.440
mean to me and therefore masculinity is dumb. And I'm going to my room. Exactly. Exactly. So,
00:39:47.300
you know, I think that that, that's a really big eye opener. I mean, it's, it's not, it's not reprinted.
00:39:52.420
You have to get vintage copies, you know, but, uh, it's out there. And I think it's kind of a real
00:39:56.860
eye opener. If you want to look at what the media is saying and see where it comes from.
00:40:01.820
Interesting stuff. Okay. I'll have to check that. I haven't read that. So I'll have to check it out.
00:40:04.940
Yeah. If Michael Kimmel quotes it all the time, then. Oh yeah. It must be good, right?
00:40:11.020
All right, man. Well, Jack, it's been a pleasure talking to you. Thanks so much. Um,
00:40:15.080
I recommend my readers go out and pick up the book. Um, some very interesting insights. Uh,
00:40:19.200
you might not agree with everything, but Jack's going to make you think when you read this book and
00:40:23.440
that's awesome. So Jack, thank you very much. Thank you so much. Our guest today was Jack
00:40:28.960
Donovan. Jack is the author of the book, the way of men, and you can find that on amazon.com.
00:40:35.820
Well, that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,
00:40:41.000
make sure to check out the art of manliness website at art of manliness.com. And until next time,