Episode #50： Made By Hand With Mark Frauenfelder
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Summary
Mark Fraunfelder is the editor of Make Magazine and founder of BoingBoing, a popular web blog about how to make things, and his recent book is called Made by Hand: Searching for Meaning in a Throwaway World. In it, he talks about his experience trying to be more self-sufficient, trying to do things on his own, and taking on a DIY ethos in his life.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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My wife and I welcomed a new baby into our family.
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Her name's Olive Scout McKay, calling her Scout.
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Mom and dad aren't getting much sleep, but that's okay.
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Today, we're going to be talking about making things by hand,
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trying to be self-sufficient, doing things, trying to fix things on your own.
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It's something we've talked a lot about on theartofmanliness.com.
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And our guest today has written a book about his experience trying to make things by hand,
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He is the editor of Make Magazine, a popular magazine about how to make things.
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He's also an editor and founder of BoingBoing.net, a popular web blog that I enjoy checking out.
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And his recent book is called Made by Hand, Searching for Meaning in a Throwaway World.
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And we're going to talk with Mark about his experience trying to be a bit more self-sufficient,
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trying to do things on his own and making things by hand,
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and the benefits that men can get from trying to take on a DIY ethos in their life.
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The story is really interesting because you and your family decided to move to some remote
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island in the South Pacific to escape the craziness of modern life.
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And both you and your wife, I guess you honeymooned there, right, before?
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It wasn't really a honeymoon, but we had just gone there on a vacation before we had kids,
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which is kind of like a honeymoon, you know, before you have kids.
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I know you just had a baby, so you realize how much life changes after you have kids.
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And so when you were there, like when you were there with your wife on the vacation,
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And you were kind of remembering it that I was a laid back lifestyle.
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But then you get there and the idea of living on the island was actually nicer than the reality.
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And so you decide to head back to the States just like four months later, right?
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And there were, you know, a few reasons why we ended up leaving a lot sooner than we thought
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But one of the things was the health care there was really a lot worse than we had expected.
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So we ended up getting like, my two and a half month old daughter got pneumonia and it was
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really hard to deal with that because they didn't have the right kind of medicine.
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We all had lice and I got ringworm and I got really bad bronchitis.
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My wife got really bad toenail fungus that was just like really nasty and I had ringworm.
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But really, the hardest thing was the social net, losing that social network that we had
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It's kind of like, you know, the old story about two fish talking to each other and one
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of them mentions something about being in the water and the fish asks, what's water?
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We just had the social network we were so used to, we didn't even realize we had it
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And the people who lived on Raritanga were nice, they were friendly, and we got along with
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them, but they knew that we would eventually leave.
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So they understandably didn't want to invest that time into building a relationship with
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us if we were just going to leave as, you know, we eventually did.
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You lost that social network, but the trip, the experience wasn't a waste because while
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you were there, you learned that one of the things you enjoyed doing was preparing coconuts
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So can you explain the coconut preparing process?
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Yeah, it's really, it was really fun and something that we all loved doing.
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When a coconut grows, like the coconuts you buy in a store are these hard shelled things,
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but when they fall off of the tree, they have this like thick fibrous skin on them.
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And I was vaguely aware of the fact that they did, but I thought maybe there were two different
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But no, every coconut has got this thick skin and you have to husk it off.
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And so you have to learn how to, how to do that by putting a stick in the ground.
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So it's sticking up like kind of like a spear point tip up in the ground.
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And then you poke the coconut and you peel this tough husk off of it.
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And then you have to chop it with a, with a machete in a certain way.
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And then, so the landlady, we had rented us a little house on the beach there and she
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came by and she saw me like jabbing at a coconut with a screwdriver and, you know, pounding
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And she said, you need to get a coconut scraping bench.
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And you have to like first go to the junkyard and get a leaf spring from, from a car and
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then take that leaf spring over to the metal shop.
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This guy runs a metal shop and he'll grind it and serrate the edge for you.
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And then you can take that over to the carpenter and he'll install, he'll make a little bench
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for you and install the, the sharpened leaf spring in there for you.
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And I was like thinking about all of these, these things she was telling me.
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And she said, or you could just use mine if you want.
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And so basically you, you straddle this little bench and take a coconut shell and scrape
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it on that serrated edge and the coconut pulp inside the meat of it drops into a little
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And so we had coconut trees growing on the property that we were renting.
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It would just fall out of the tree like one or two a day, which was a lot.
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And so I would just scrape it and we ended up like using it in everything.
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We would make coconut scones and coconut pancakes and make coconut cream and put that on the
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fish that we would buy from our neighbors who would go fishing and doing that kind of all
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day thing and making our own tortillas and making our own spaghetti noodles or linguine by
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So it would take a really long time to do all of that stuff as, you know, compared to picking up
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something that's ready to go at Trader Joe's or Whole Foods or something.
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The whole family got involved in it and we really loved it.
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And I thought to myself that this is something that I'll always want to do no matter what
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kind of life I live or where I live, this kind of, you know, family activity of getting
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involved in something that is so important to your life, eating three times a day, having
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kind of control over doing it and being part of the process of having the food.
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And so that was like a big light bulb that went off in my head.
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So you basically, you've discovered being self-sufficient where there was something
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fulfilling about that and coconuts, harvesting coconuts led to that, which led to this idea
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How can I do stuff by myself, be self-sufficient in other aspects of my life?
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Um, so, I mean, when you got back to the States, like you had that light bulb, did you decide
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then, well, I'm going to write a book about this?
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Or did you decide I'm going to look for more experiences, um, like I had on the island with
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Yeah, I think it was, it was, uh, the second of those two things.
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Plus the fact that I got a job at, uh, make magazine, which was, uh, uh, the, uh, started
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And one of the founders named Dale Doherty, he gave me a call and, and, uh, knew about my
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work at wired magazine and boing, boing and said, I want to put together a prototype magazine.
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That's kind of like a general, general interest DIY, how to project magazine.
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And that idea really intrigued me because of my experiences on Rarotonga.
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So I met with Dale and, um, we put together a prototype for the magazine and, um, people
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And I really still wasn't that much of a maker of things when we put out the magazine, but
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after I did, and I started meeting all these people who were making amazing things out
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of wood or electronics or metal work or, or whatever, and learning what kind of people
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they are and how much reward and fulfillment they got from doing it, that made me want
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to start experimenting with, with those kinds of things myself.
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And then combined with my experiences on the island, I thought the idea of kind of do it
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yourself food would be something that would really work for me because, um, you know,
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everybody, so if I get more involved in, in the, the process of feeding myself and my
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family, that would be something that would be fulfilling to me.
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And, uh, it, it turned out to be, even though a lot of my experiments ended up being disasters.
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Um, so one of the things you keep on saying, um, is how doing stuff by yourself on your own,
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And in fact, the subtitle of your book is called searching for meaning in a throwaway world.
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I mean, what is it about doing something by hand, um, that makes it, that provides meaning
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I think that there are so many aspects of modern life that are out of our control.
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We can do very little about politics other than vote.
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And, um, the results are usually unsatisfactory.
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People are, almost everybody can be with, with Congress.
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There's not, uh, we, we have to rely on large institutions or education, um, all those kinds
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And so people get this kind of learned helplessness of just accepting the solutions that are given
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And once you start to take a little more control of the, the world of the, the human made and,
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and, uh, maintained world around you and, and become a participant rather than a consumer,
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And you start to develop a sense of self-efficacy that crosses over from one, one, uh, knowledge
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So if I am, if I have a problem with the home thermostat and I need to replace it and whether
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I'm successful or not, I've learned something about it.
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And then it makes you feel like you want to deal with other problems that happen or other
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You feel like, well, you know, I'm willing to give this a try.
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And, um, that having that kind of, you know, even a small degree of control over the way
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you live and being able to solve a problem that you have rather than paying someone else
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to solve it for you is something that for, for me, it was, was a great feeling and has
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Um, just yesterday, uh, I will, well, like three days ago, I noticed a whole bunch of
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water pooling up underneath the washing machine.
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And I, I had, it had been, I kind of noticed it in the back of my mind and I didn't know what
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And finally, like I listened and I heard this sound that was like water leaking.
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And so it ended up that there was something leaking inside the washing machine.
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And my first inclination is to find out my new washing machine.
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But instead I like turn the, the source, the tap, uh, off that was leading to that, you
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know, that the hoses that lead to the washing machine.
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And, um, and I noticed that the sound went away.
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So something's leaking inside the washing machine.
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I ended up like figuring out how to take it apart.
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I took the wrong pieces off at first and everything.
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But finally I found a little plastic water inlet, um, valve with solenoids on it that
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had a hairline fracture and water was spraying out in a fine mist.
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Thank, thank God for the internet being like this indexed parts store.
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And I found a part and it was like $30 delivered in two days and I got it.
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And yesterday I replaced it and put the new, um, water inlet valve in and the thing works.
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And it's like, before I wrote this book, there's no way I would have been able to do that.
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I wouldn't have had the, the knowledge or, or the, the, the tools that I'd need to do even.
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And it would have been an expensive thing either, either getting someone out here to repair it
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or, you know, my, my default solution, buying a new washing machine.
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It gives you a sense of meaning and control in a world where we don't have much control, uh, over
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our lives because these large institutions are handle a lot of the heavy lifting in society.
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And what I, what I found, found interesting too, what I find interesting too, is that it seems like
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even, uh, a lot of our, like the goods we use on a daily basis are being designed in a way now
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Like I have this washing machine, it's a Samsung washing machine.
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And it's like, it's got this fancy computer, um, where it tells like how much water it exactly
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And like, if that thing broke down, I don't know if I'd be able to fix it.
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Um, or like, you know, you talk about like newer cars, even they're designed in a way
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so that we have to go to a, you know, an authorized mechanic, the dealership to get it fixed because
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there's some kind of computer involved or like, I've even seen some cars or heard about
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some cars where they actually put like plastic over the engine.
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Like you open up the hood and all you see is plastic.
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That's like Matthew Crawford, the author of shop classes, shop class as soul craft said,
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when you lift the hood on a car, there's another hood.
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And that's, I mean, this is something that happened to me last week.
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I hate those check engine lights because they don't tell you what the problem is.
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So I took it to a garage, a Pep Boys and said, could you check it out and see what the problem
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And so they looked and they said, it's your, your smog pump, something that like it is with
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And so they, um, said, let's, uh, we'll, we'll figure out what's going on with it.
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So then a couple of hours later, they said, you know, your smog pump is fine.
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What's the problem is the computer that, uh, that deals with the smog pump and senses it
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And so they did a smog test on it and it failed the smog test, not because there's anything
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wrong with the emissions, but just because the computer is giving the wrong information.
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They have to plug that, you know, that diagnostic port in where they do a smog test.
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And so they said, you have to take it to a Volkswagen dealership to either, you know,
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But today's consumer technology is very, uh, user unfriendly.
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They have all, you know, no user serviceable parts inside labels on them.
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And, uh, the parts are glued together often rather than screwed together.
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So you couldn't even open them if you wanted to.
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And there are surface mount components instead of discrete components.
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If you wanted to try to replace them, you would have a hard time.
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I remember when I was really young, we had TV sets that had tubes in them.
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And when the TV started to go wonky, if the picture was bad, my dad would take the back
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off the TV and just pull the tubes out and you could drive down to the local drug store
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and they would have a tube testing machine and you'd plug the tubes into these sockets
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and a little needle on a meter would tell you whether or not the TV, the tubes were good
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And then you could just buy the tubes and take them home.
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Now, if a TV breaks, you just throw it in the trash and buy a new one.
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Because, you know, one thing is they're a lot cheaper, but the other thing is you couldn't
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And I mean, I guess the reason why companies do that, cause you know, you have to buy another
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Um, because you have to buy a new TV instead of actually fixing it.
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And what's interesting, I think he actually mentioned this in your book or it might have,
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it might be confusing shop craft as soul craft, but like back in the day when they created
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appliances or machines, um, companies did so with the, with the intention that the user
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would actually repair it themselves, like that you could buy parts, right?
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From, uh, for your John Deere tractor and fix it or your television set or your vacuum
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And yeah, it's just so frustrating because you can't do that anymore.
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Even, even if you wanted to, it's hard to do that.
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And that's why, um, some, some of my friends will only buy used appliances for their, for
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their household use, like in industrial juicers and all like industrial and, and, uh, kind of
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professional grade equipment because those are meant to be, uh, uh, easily repaired.
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You know, there's like little access panels and parts that come out easily.
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So like they'll buy, um, and, and, and, uh, a, a commercial grade espresso maker, because
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they know that they'll be able to replace the parts rather than the kind of plastic one
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And as soon as it's broken, you just go, well, time to throw it away and get a new one.
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So you mentioned the espresso maker, uh, which reminds me, um, of my next question is, are
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there, let's talk about some of the projects that you highlight in your book.
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Um, the espresso maker was one of them, uh, which was really interesting.
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Um, was there, was that one you really enjoyed or is there another one that you really enjoyed?
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And was there a project that just really frustrated you?
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Yeah, I, I think, um, they, they all had different levels of frustration, but the one that,
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um, I think was, was frustrating at first and then was rewarding.
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And I might not have talked enough about the rewards in the book because the reward didn't
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Um, I wanted to start keeping bees so that I could collect honey and, and honeycomb wax.
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And I had a hard time because the, uh, the bees were absconding from the, the hive.
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What we did, I worked with this guy, um, who is like the leader of a beekeeping club here
00:20:36.060
And, um, instead of mail ordering bees, what he does is he runs a bee removal service and
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then saves the bees and then populates people's hives like amateur beekeepers.
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And so we, uh, fortunately or, or unfortunately had a whole bunch of bees in our rafters of,
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of the house we live here in, here in Los Angeles.
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And so Kirk and I got the bees out and put them into the, into a beehive in my backyard.
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And so we had to get more bees and, and, uh, put them in and, uh, they, uh, they finally
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took, but they, it took a while so they didn't make honey.
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And so finally I started getting honey after the book.
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And then once I got the honey, it was like, oh, this is amazing.
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And people were telling me that it was the best honey that they've ever tasted.
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And, um, I ended up realizing how much fun it is to be a beekeeper and to give honey away
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to people and use the wax for various products that we make.
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And it's something also that my daughters really enjoy.
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We just, uh, this summer harvested about a gallon of honey, which doesn't seem like a
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lot, but it, it, uh, lasts a long time, especially because what I'll do is I put it in a little
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tiny glass jars and just give it to friends when I, when they come over to visit or I go
00:22:01.540
to see them, it makes a great little gift to do that.
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So that, that was like a great experience and, uh, I hope we will have those bees for
00:22:10.680
We're going to take a quick break for you, words from our sponsors.
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And it's also great for the environment, right?
00:23:02.260
The colony collapse disorder, which no one, there's a lot of theories about why, and it
00:23:08.140
could be a combination of several factors where the people treat the mites, which is
00:23:16.840
And, um, the fact that, uh, there's kind of a monoculture of bees where people are male
00:23:24.140
order bees and there's not enough diversity and then pesticides and all those kinds of things.
00:23:28.440
So the beekeeping club I belong to is called backward beekeepers.
00:23:33.300
And we do everything kind of backwards, uh, compared to most beekeepers.
00:23:43.880
And, um, it's almost like the less you bother them, the happier they are.
00:23:48.340
You just provide them with a nice place to, to live and let them be bees.
00:23:54.000
And that, uh, has once I finally, once they finally took it, that's been a great, great
00:24:04.380
Are there any, are there any other projects that you, you know, you started, uh, that you
00:24:08.780
talked about in the book that you're still doing today?
00:24:16.680
I think that, uh, besides tasting really good, there's, there's health benefits, the kind of
00:24:23.540
So making sauerkraut and yogurt is not only a fun thing to do and, and really pretty easy
00:24:31.920
to do, but it's actually one, um, do it yourself kind of pursuit where it actually will save you
00:24:40.080
There's a lot of DIY things that are much more expensive than, than, uh, buying something.
00:24:45.920
Like if you wanted to make your own TV or your own MP3 player or something, it will cost
00:24:50.360
you 10 times as much as it would to buy something.
00:24:53.900
But with, with, uh, yogurt and especially sauerkraut, you can make it for a fraction of how much you
00:25:02.800
And then you also know what's going into it and you can age it the right amount.
00:25:06.700
And just, uh, really, I highly recommend doing those things yourself.
00:25:13.200
When I read that, I was like, I need to get started on this because I, I love sauerkraut.
00:25:18.860
And I just, I have a sitting on my desk right now, some, some yogurt culture that, uh, makes
00:25:26.500
yogurt at room temperature so that you don't need to heat it up.
00:25:30.420
You know, some people buy like heating blankets or special, like little incubation, um, devices,
00:25:37.340
which I had been using, but I want to try this.
00:25:40.480
Um, uh, you know, you just set it on your shelf, set, set the milk on your shelf with
00:25:47.220
And then once you use the starter, that's it, you don't have to keep buying more starter.
00:25:50.100
You can just use the old yogurt to make new yogurt.
00:25:52.640
So it's going to be fun to see how, how it turns out.
00:25:57.600
So Mark, a lot of, you know, on our website, we, we do some DIY stuff, um, articles every
00:26:03.320
now and then, and we get a lot of young men who are just really keyed in on this.
00:26:09.620
Um, but what's interesting is like when I talked to my dad or talk to my, my grandpa,
00:26:13.580
who's like 94, um, it seems like a lot of this DIY stuff, right?
00:26:18.300
Like how to fix things or how to make your own food or how to process, you know, your own
00:26:23.420
deer that you might've hunted, it was that sort of information, that sort of knowledge
00:26:27.720
seemed like it was just naturally passed down to them.
00:26:30.020
Like they just, I don't know, I guess the way things, the way we were as a society, 40,
00:26:35.120
50 years ago, it just, that information just got passed down naturally.
00:26:38.540
But nowadays it just seems like younger generations just don't get that sort of stuff.
00:26:45.100
Why do you think younger generations lack DIY skills?
00:26:48.800
Well, I think, um, looking pretty far back, like over a hundred years ago, in 1900, 80%
00:26:59.000
of Americans either lived full time on farms or they worked every day on farms and lived
00:27:09.080
And to, to be a farm worker or a farmer, you really have to be a, a jack of all trades.
00:27:16.960
You have to be really good at fixing and maintaining farm machinery and be really, um, innovative
00:27:24.580
and resourceful in coming up with ways to, to make new machinery and all that kind of
00:27:30.640
So every farm had a working machine shop and wood shop on the premises.
00:27:36.300
So people, 80% of Americans were, were really good at making things.
00:27:40.840
And then if you compare today, only 2% of Americans live and work on farms.
00:27:49.360
Um, we don't need to, we don't need to make or fix our own stuff.
00:27:54.880
Even, you know, people in the fifties who were repairing their own TV sets by pulling
00:27:59.800
the back off and taking the tubes out had that kind of, uh, mindset that the world was
00:28:06.980
something that presented problems that they could solve as individuals today.
00:28:12.940
We really focus hard on these kind of hermetically sealed solutions to everything.
00:28:18.660
And if something goes wrong, the answer is either buy one or call someone to come over
00:28:27.500
And so that's, that's, that's made people, um, um, you know, unable to, to make anything.
00:28:38.340
And so for, for us, for my generation and people younger than me, the idea of making things
00:28:45.740
is kind of novel and it, uh, is, is, uh, you know, once you rediscover how, how great it
00:28:54.920
is to do that kind of thing, you want to kind of shout it from the rooftop.
00:28:58.480
And I think that's like what make magazine does.
00:29:01.600
And what my book is, is like, Hey, everybody, this is really cool.
00:29:04.880
You know, your, your father and grandfather and mother and grandmother were doing this
00:29:14.200
Um, you don't have to do it, but really you should look into it because there's something
00:29:18.820
that you get out of it that, that you can't, uh, you know, it's an, an experience and,
00:29:24.280
and, and a feeling of, uh, fulfillment that you can't replicate any other way.
00:29:29.800
And it's also very counter-cultural in a lot of ways.
00:29:32.400
You know, we have a very consumer culture, um, but, uh, doing things by hand, uh, just
00:29:38.800
totally cuts against the grain, um, against that, that pervasive culture we have in our
00:29:48.040
So what, but what do you think, um, keeps people from trying to make things by hand?
00:29:54.020
Cause I know you hear a lot of people talk about it.
00:29:56.000
Like they talk wistfully about, oh, you know, I want to become a craftsman and make, you
00:30:01.780
know, these wonderful handmade goods, or I want to, I want to, you know, change the oil
00:30:05.640
on my car, but a lot of times they never get around to doing it.
00:30:10.520
From your experience, what do you think is the biggest thing that holds people back from
00:30:16.460
I think that people have been trained to avoid making mistakes as much as, or, or not avoid,
00:30:25.960
but, uh, they've been trained to fear mistakes to the point where they don't want to take
00:30:32.520
anything new on because, um, they're afraid they might make a mistake.
00:30:36.960
And as soon as they do make a mistake, they quickly lose interest and get discouraged from,
00:30:43.580
And I think one of the reasons for that is that schools train people that, uh, mistakes
00:30:50.860
are something to be avoided because when you make a mistake in school, you get a bad grade.
00:30:55.660
So you learn from childhood that mistakes are bad.
00:30:59.180
So if you are doing something and you make a mistake, you think, I don't want to do that
00:31:05.660
But the fact of the matter is that mistakes are a really important way to learn.
00:31:11.620
And that the, the makers that I've met, excuse me, the makers I've met who are like what,
00:31:19.700
who I consider alpha makers who are really good at making stuff.
00:31:22.400
The thing that is different from them and the rest of the population isn't that they have a lot
00:31:28.360
of skills. The true important difference is that they have learned to accept and even embrace
00:31:36.220
mistakes as part of the process of creating things. And they don't go out and intentionally try to make
00:31:42.960
mistakes, but they know that mistakes are going to be made, that they're going to make mistakes and
00:31:48.240
that they're going to use them as ways to learn and as sources of inspiration and creativity.
00:31:55.560
And so that was something that I learned through the process of, of doing this stuff is that
00:32:03.760
mistakes are okay. And, um, I actually now kind of build that into whatever I am making that I
00:32:13.240
think, all right, this is just going to be the first time I make something and I'll probably have
00:32:17.580
to do it four times before it's good enough for me to, to use and keep as a permanent thing or write
00:32:24.560
about. And it's fine. It's, it's like, don't expect something to be perfect the first time you
00:32:30.580
do it. And, um, that, that has been like a big, uh, perception changer for me.
00:32:38.360
And I'm sure that's, that carries over to other areas of life, uh, as well. Your, maybe your work,
00:32:44.460
uh, your family, I mean, even yourself, I mean, I guess maybe you're not as hard as in your,
00:32:48.140
on yourself when you do screw up in some other aspect of like personal development saying,
00:32:52.540
look, you know, I'm a, this is a process. Okay. I take that mistake, get some feedback,
00:32:59.120
Yeah, definitely. It's that, that's, it's such a great attitude to have is thinking,
00:33:04.560
you know, I made a mistake and what did I learn from it and how am I going to do things differently?
00:33:12.480
And, and yeah. And so it's, yeah, just not equating a mistake with failure. The only time
00:33:18.500
you fail is if the mistake discourages you to the point where you give up.
00:33:25.680
Yeah. I've had instances where I tried to, I took on some DIY projects and yeah, I, I, I messed up on
00:33:33.100
the, I, what I was trying, here's this one that I, I, it comes to mind was I wanted to make a
00:33:37.100
teleprompter for my DSLR because I do YouTube videos and I'm really bad about, you know,
00:33:44.520
just kind of talking off the cuff. So I wanted to teleprompter and I found some instructions online,
00:33:48.540
how you can make this teleprompter with wood, with some like picture frames and a few pieces of wood
00:33:54.400
and a piece of glass. And I remember I got into, I was really excited. And then I just, I totally
00:33:59.500
biffed it up and it wasn't salvageable. And I had, I'd have to go back to Home Depot and get some
00:34:04.680
more supplies. And I was like, you know what, I'm just going to, I'll just go and find one and
00:34:09.620
buy it instead. And so, yeah, I really feel kind of ashamed that I did that, you know, that it gave
00:34:16.700
up on it. Cause it's like the, the ruins of this project are like in my little, in my garage in a
00:34:21.040
corner, just sitting there. Every time I walk by, it sort of mocks, you know, laughs at me.
00:34:26.040
Well, another thing, you know, that, that I learned also is that you, you have to, um,
00:34:34.680
keep in mind the, the level of complexity of a project that you're taking on, what works with
00:34:41.980
the amount of time that you have, if you have kids or not, um, if it works with, uh, you know,
00:34:48.440
the, the space that you, you have, the tools that you have. And sometimes those things aren't right.
00:34:54.060
And you can always go back to them, um, and set your sights on a project that is manageable
00:34:59.580
and challenges you at a, at, at a level that is appropriate for your, uh, current skill level
00:35:08.400
and, um, in an, and environment. So I, I, I think I probably, I probably did bite off more than I
00:35:15.400
could chew. So I guess being humble, uh, is an important aspect of the DIY. Yeah, definitely.
00:35:21.520
You know, see yourself for what, see the skills for, you know, see yourself as you really are,
00:35:25.280
not as what you want to be. Um, okay. So here's another, like whenever we publish a DIY article,
00:35:31.380
like how to build something or how to make something yourself or how to fix something in
00:35:36.120
your house, uh, in the comments, a common, uh, complaint or a common question we get is,
00:35:43.760
you know, people say that, Oh, it's a waste of time and money to do things yourself. You know,
00:35:48.260
just pay for it. Um, you know, time is better spent doing something else. You could be
00:35:53.280
working on a side project that actually earns you money instead of, you know, spending time
00:35:57.980
fixing a, patching a hole in your drywall. Um, how do you respond to those people who say that
00:36:03.400
DIY is a waste of time and money? Well, you know, I think in most cases they're, they're right about
00:36:12.280
the money. It costs more money to, to do something yourself than, than it does to buy it. And that wasn't
00:36:20.120
always true, but it is true now. So when we, when, uh, I became a, a chicken farmer, small scale
00:36:27.160
chicken farmer with six chickens, the amount of time and money I spent building a chicken coop and
00:36:33.400
then taking care of the chickens and stuff, those were the most expensive eggs that I've ever bought.
00:36:39.700
And so they're right on that level. But then the thing is like the, the eggs that I did get,
00:36:47.880
I appreciated so much. And the, the joy it brought me to, to work with the chickens and collect the
00:36:55.960
eggs and have my kids collect the eggs was, was really worth every penny that I spent.
00:37:02.120
If you, if you, if you get involved in something, you care about it so much more. You know, if you
00:37:08.760
build your own chair, there's a lot of things that happen. You could probably buy a nice chair
00:37:15.800
for less money than, than a chair that you built yourself. And it, it might even look better. But if
00:37:21.800
you build that chair, you're going to take care of it and maintain it because it's your chair. If it
00:37:27.160
breaks, you know how to fix it. Um, it makes you more observant, uh, of the world around you. You
00:37:35.340
start looking at how other chairs are put together and how they're fastened and oh, how did that guy
00:37:39.660
design? How, how did they join the, the wood there? Um, that level of, you know, seeing the world with
00:37:46.720
new eyes is really, really great. And it also, one of the cool, the best things about it is it makes
00:37:53.080
you appreciate how, how skilled and artistic, uh, other people are. When you see a beautifully
00:38:01.100
built chair, it makes you appreciate it on a completely new level before you wouldn't have
00:38:06.280
even noticed that or thought about it. So is that a waste of time and money to build a chair? If you
00:38:12.340
gain all of that, uh, kind of new awareness for some people, maybe, but for me, it, it's very much
00:38:19.780
worth it. I'm there with you totally on that. Um, Mark, how, so I think you've mentioned it throughout
00:38:25.840
our conversation, but how has becoming a tinkerer or a DIYer, uh, made you a better man in other areas
00:38:33.360
of your life? Um, I feel that it has given me the, the, uh, courage to take on all sorts of challenges.
00:38:49.780
That I would have, uh, uh, either avoided or outsourced in the past. So, um, I think that that
00:39:01.740
level of, of, uh, confidence that it's given me in all aspects of my life has really helped a lot.
00:39:09.280
You know, I, I feel like, um, once I started kind of changing the world around me, I looked at myself
00:39:16.160
and, and decided to do something about my kind of sedentary lifestyle with a, with a not very good
00:39:23.900
diet and started really researching ways to exercise and stay fit and the kinds of foods to eat
00:39:33.740
and improving my sleep and all those kinds of things. And I think I've, I've really improved my,
00:39:39.480
my health quite a bit. I've, I've lost a lot of weight. I think I've gained a lot of, uh,
00:39:44.500
I've become much, much leaner than I was. And that just helps me feel, uh, you know, stronger and
00:39:51.940
healthier and better able to take care of my, my wife and kids too. When, when you feel good
00:39:59.500
mentally and physically like that, you're able to work harder and work smarter. And, uh, I think
00:40:06.160
it's good for the whole family. That's awesome. Do you, do you feel like, um, you mentioned when you're,
00:40:11.840
when you're on the Island with your family that you lost that social, that social network has
00:40:16.560
becoming a DIY or like expanded your social network in some, in some ways? Yeah, it, it definitely has
00:40:23.060
because, um, I, uh, one of the cool things about the maker movement is that you have seen the, the
00:40:32.100
rise of, of, uh, they're called maker spaces or hacker spaces. They're places where people like chip in
00:40:37.440
a little bit of money every month, $50 or so. And they get access to a room full of tools and
00:40:43.500
equipment. And then most importantly, they get access to other people who are also into making.
00:40:49.920
And so I will, uh, go to these places whenever I travel. And there's, there's one here in LA
00:40:56.100
called crash space and it's great hanging out with them and learning from them. And, uh, I pick up so
00:41:02.900
many ideas from what they have to say and have made friends with, with these folks. So, uh, I think the,
00:41:09.800
the social network aspect of making is one of the most important things. Every year we have something
00:41:14.820
called maker fair and we have one in New York and one in San Mateo near San Francisco. There are two
00:41:21.400
official ones. And the one in San Mateo gets like 120,000 people a year. And they love the big thing is,
00:41:27.960
you know, talking and hanging out with each other and seeing what other people have made and learning
00:41:31.600
from them. And lots of deals are made and lots of collaborations are formed there. And then there
00:41:36.560
are many maker fairs that have attendance of, you know, 10, 20,000 all over the world. So making is
00:41:42.360
a very, uh, big social, you know, the social aspect of, of being a maker is huge. That's something
00:41:49.020
there's one of those mini maker fairs are actually, it's coming to Tulsa. Uh, so yeah, me and my
00:41:54.380
brother-in-law, we're going to go check it out. We're really excited. Oh, good. So, well, Mark,
00:41:58.820
do you have any final bits of advice, um, to our listeners who are, you know, they want to do this,
00:42:03.720
like they want to become a tinker. They want to become a DIY or, um, any final bits of advice
00:42:08.440
for them to help them get started? Yeah, I would say like, you know, my, my particular interest in
00:42:14.300
when I wrote the book, um, made by hand was that I thought that food would be a good project for me
00:42:21.480
because, you know, a, I like to eat, uh, and it's something that I do three times a day. And so
00:42:27.280
having, uh, getting involved with that would have a pretty profound effect on my, my life. So my
00:42:36.160
advice would be to find something you're passionate about. So, you know, say you're interested in,
00:42:40.520
in music, look into DIY music, making your own musical instruments or making your own recording
00:42:45.620
studio. It's got to be something that you are interested in and that is going to, uh, have
00:42:53.160
lasting value. You know, I have friends who are into robotics and make really cool robots. I
00:42:59.380
personally would not be that interested in doing it because I might have fun making the robot and
00:43:03.520
everything. And then, but once you're done, you have this, a robot and I'm like, okay, you know,
00:43:07.360
it's going to kind of walk around and avoid the walls, but I would play with it for 15 minutes and
00:43:11.640
then it would go in the closet to find something you're passionate about. And then the other thing I
00:43:15.540
would say is find, figure out an appropriate, appropriate challenge level. If you aim too
00:43:23.720
high, you're going to get discouraged and, and abandon it. And if you aim too low, you're going
00:43:29.280
to get bored. And so, um, uh, the, uh, Michael, she sent me high wrote a book called flow, which
00:43:36.800
you probably heard about where he talks about this state where you are sufficiently challenged by
00:43:41.820
something that you become engrossed in it. And you don't even, if you're hungry, you don't think
00:43:47.260
about eating. If you're tired, you don't think about sleeping. You're just like, this is all I
00:43:51.520
want to do. I don't want to do anything else. Um, find that and do it. Very good. Well, Mark,
00:43:59.100
it's been a pleasure. It's been a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much, um, for your
00:44:03.360
time. You bet, Brad. Thanks a lot. It was really fun talking with you. Our guest today was Mark
00:44:08.780
Fraunfelder. He is the author of the book made by hand searching for meaning in a throwaway world.
00:44:13.860
And you can find his book on amazon.com. Well, that wraps up another edition of the art of
00:44:24.520
manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the art of manliness website
00:44:29.040
at art of manliness.com. And until next time, stay manly.