The Art of Manliness - Episode #50： Made By Hand With Mark Frauenfelder

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00:00:52.340 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:56.760 Well, I'm back after taking a hiatus.

00:00:59.600 My wife and I welcomed a new baby into our family.

00:01:03.240 Her name's Olive Scout McKay, calling her Scout.

00:01:06.460 Baby's doing great.

00:01:07.680 Mom and dad aren't getting much sleep, but that's okay.

00:01:10.920 I'm really excited about today's show.

00:01:12.700 Today, we're going to be talking about making things by hand,

00:01:15.880 trying to be self-sufficient, doing things, trying to fix things on your own.

00:01:19.980 It's something we've talked a lot about on theartofmanliness.com.

00:01:22.820 And our guest today has written a book about his experience trying to make things by hand,

00:01:29.600 trying to live by a DIY ethos.

00:01:32.140 His name is Mark Fraunfelder.

00:01:34.120 He is the editor of Make Magazine, a popular magazine about how to make things.

00:01:40.160 He's also an editor and founder of BoingBoing.net, a popular web blog that I enjoy checking out.

00:01:47.120 And his recent book is called Made by Hand, Searching for Meaning in a Throwaway World.

00:01:53.640 And we're going to talk with Mark about his experience trying to be a bit more self-sufficient,

00:01:59.120 trying to do things on his own and making things by hand,

00:02:02.100 and the benefits that men can get from trying to take on a DIY ethos in their life.

00:02:08.600 So stay tuned.

00:02:11.500 All right, Mark.

00:02:12.420 So let's talk about the genesis of your book.

00:02:15.220 The story is really interesting because you and your family decided to move to some remote

00:02:20.940 island in the South Pacific to escape the craziness of modern life.

00:02:25.060 And both you and your wife, I guess you honeymooned there, right, before?

00:02:28.500 Yeah, yeah.

00:02:29.380 It wasn't really a honeymoon, but we had just gone there on a vacation before we had kids,

00:02:35.060 which is kind of like a honeymoon, you know, before you have kids.

00:02:39.720 I know you just had a baby, so you realize how much life changes after you have kids.

00:02:44.880 Definitely.

00:02:46.080 And so when you were there, like when you were there with your wife on the vacation,

00:02:49.180 you're like, this is a great place.

00:02:50.660 And you were kind of remembering it that I was a laid back lifestyle.

00:02:54.100 We can go there and it'll be what we want.

00:02:56.660 But then you get there and the idea of living on the island was actually nicer than the reality.

00:03:02.940 And so you decide to head back to the States just like four months later, right?

00:03:06.480 Was that how long?

00:03:06.980 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:03:09.580 And there were, you know, a few reasons why we ended up leaving a lot sooner than we thought

00:03:15.380 we would have.

00:03:17.200 We wanted to stay a year at least.

00:03:19.840 But one of the things was the health care there was really a lot worse than we had expected.

00:03:26.300 So we ended up getting like, my two and a half month old daughter got pneumonia and it was

00:03:33.280 really hard to deal with that because they didn't have the right kind of medicine.

00:03:36.740 We had to have it shipped in from New Zealand.

00:03:39.020 Wow.

00:03:39.660 We all had lice and I got ringworm and I got really bad bronchitis.

00:03:44.560 Oh boy.

00:03:44.920 My wife got really bad toenail fungus that was just like really nasty and I had ringworm.

00:03:51.020 So anyway, that was one of the things.

00:03:52.320 But really, the hardest thing was the social net, losing that social network that we had

00:04:01.140 built up over a lifetime.

00:04:03.620 It's kind of like, you know, the old story about two fish talking to each other and one

00:04:10.100 of them mentions something about being in the water and the fish asks, what's water?

00:04:15.480 It's the same with us.

00:04:16.620 We just had the social network we were so used to, we didn't even realize we had it

00:04:19.780 until we didn't have it.

00:04:21.760 And so that was the hardest thing.

00:04:24.060 And the people who lived on Raritanga were nice, they were friendly, and we got along with

00:04:30.700 them, but they knew that we would eventually leave.

00:04:33.280 So they understandably didn't want to invest that time into building a relationship with

00:04:38.360 us if we were just going to leave as, you know, we eventually did.

00:04:43.860 Yeah.

00:04:43.960 So, okay.

00:04:44.940 So it sounds like lots of health problems.

00:04:47.480 You lost that social network, but the trip, the experience wasn't a waste because while

00:04:53.020 you were there, you learned that one of the things you enjoyed doing was preparing coconuts

00:04:57.680 with your daughter.

00:04:58.560 So can you explain the coconut preparing process?

00:05:00.860 I thought this was really interesting.

00:05:02.040 So what goes into preparing a coconut?

00:05:04.820 Yeah, it's really, it was really fun and something that we all loved doing.

00:05:09.840 When a coconut grows, like the coconuts you buy in a store are these hard shelled things,

00:05:15.360 but when they fall off of the tree, they have this like thick fibrous skin on them.

00:05:20.320 And I was vaguely aware of the fact that they did, but I thought maybe there were two different

00:05:25.280 kinds of species of coconut or something.

00:05:26.980 But no, every coconut has got this thick skin and you have to husk it off.

00:05:30.800 And so you have to learn how to, how to do that by putting a stick in the ground.

00:05:36.840 So it's sticking up like kind of like a spear point tip up in the ground.

00:05:40.440 And then you poke the coconut and you peel this tough husk off of it.

00:05:44.540 And then you have to chop it with a, with a machete in a certain way.

00:05:49.180 And then, so the landlady, we had rented us a little house on the beach there and she

00:05:54.540 came by and she saw me like jabbing at a coconut with a screwdriver and, you know, pounding

00:05:59.060 on it with a rock.

00:06:00.000 And she said, you need to get a coconut scraping bench. 0.99

00:06:03.360 And I'm like, well, what is that?

00:06:05.200 And she said, well, you have to make one.

00:06:06.860 And you have to like first go to the junkyard and get a leaf spring from, from a car and

00:06:13.100 then take that leaf spring over to the metal shop.

00:06:15.940 This guy runs a metal shop and he'll grind it and serrate the edge for you.

00:06:19.560 And then you can take that over to the carpenter and he'll install, he'll make a little bench

00:06:23.660 for you and install the, the sharpened leaf spring in there for you.

00:06:27.760 And I was like thinking about all of these, these things she was telling me.

00:06:30.700 And she said, or you could just use mine if you want.

00:06:32.960 I'm like, all right, I'll use yours.

00:06:34.520 That sounds good.

00:06:35.200 And so basically you, you straddle this little bench and take a coconut shell and scrape

00:06:43.180 it on that serrated edge and the coconut pulp inside the meat of it drops into a little

00:06:48.640 bowl.

00:06:49.840 And so we had coconut trees growing on the property that we were renting.

00:06:53.960 It would just fall out of the tree like one or two a day, which was a lot.

00:06:59.360 Actually, it built up.

00:07:00.640 And so I would just scrape it and we ended up like using it in everything.

00:07:03.600 We would make coconut scones and coconut pancakes and make coconut cream and put that on the

00:07:09.840 fish that we would buy from our neighbors who would go fishing and doing that kind of all

00:07:15.640 day thing and making our own tortillas and making our own spaghetti noodles or linguine by

00:07:23.400 hand, all that kind of stuff.

00:07:24.560 So it would take a really long time to do all of that stuff as, you know, compared to picking up

00:07:30.460 something that's ready to go at Trader Joe's or Whole Foods or something.

00:07:34.480 But it was a lot of fun.

00:07:36.360 The whole family got involved in it and we really loved it.

00:07:38.920 And I thought to myself that this is something that I'll always want to do no matter what

00:07:45.180 kind of life I live or where I live, this kind of, you know, family activity of getting

00:07:51.060 involved in something that is so important to your life, eating three times a day, having

00:07:56.120 kind of control over doing it and being part of the process of having the food.

00:08:01.400 And so that was like a big light bulb that went off in my head.

00:08:05.960 Okay.

00:08:06.080 So you basically, you've discovered being self-sufficient where there was something

00:08:11.820 fulfilling about that and coconuts, harvesting coconuts led to that, which led to this idea

00:08:18.400 that I guess led to your book.

00:08:19.960 How can I do stuff by myself, be self-sufficient in other aspects of my life?

00:08:26.840 Um, so, I mean, when you got back to the States, like you had that light bulb, did you decide

00:08:32.460 then, well, I'm going to write a book about this?

00:08:34.220 Or did you decide I'm going to look for more experiences, um, like I had on the island with

00:08:40.840 the coconuts and then the book came from that.

00:08:43.600 What happened?

00:08:44.640 Yeah, I think it was, it was, uh, the second of those two things.

00:08:48.160 Plus the fact that I got a job at, uh, make magazine, which was, uh, uh, the, uh, started

00:08:56.900 by a company called O'Reilly.

00:08:58.440 They're a technical book publisher.

00:09:00.460 And one of the founders named Dale Doherty, he gave me a call and, and, uh, knew about my

00:09:07.040 work at wired magazine and boing, boing and said, I want to put together a prototype magazine.

00:09:13.200 That's kind of like a general, general interest DIY, how to project magazine.

00:09:19.220 And that idea really intrigued me because of my experiences on Rarotonga.

00:09:25.140 So I met with Dale and, um, we put together a prototype for the magazine and, um, people

00:09:33.280 responded really well to it.

00:09:35.140 And I really still wasn't that much of a maker of things when we put out the magazine, but

00:09:39.680 after I did, and I started meeting all these people who were making amazing things out

00:09:45.760 of wood or electronics or metal work or, or whatever, and learning what kind of people

00:09:51.600 they are and how much reward and fulfillment they got from doing it, that made me want

00:09:56.340 to start experimenting with, with those kinds of things myself.

00:10:00.000 And then combined with my experiences on the island, I thought the idea of kind of do it

00:10:05.060 yourself food would be something that would really work for me because, um, you know,

00:10:13.700 everybody, so if I get more involved in, in the, the process of feeding myself and my

00:10:21.340 family, that would be something that would be fulfilling to me.

00:10:25.140 And, uh, it, it turned out to be, even though a lot of my experiments ended up being disasters.

00:10:34.660 You know, we'll get to that in just a bit.

00:10:36.860 Um, so one of the things you keep on saying, um, is how doing stuff by yourself on your own,

00:10:43.360 doing DIY, um, gives you a lot of meaning.

00:10:46.780 And in fact, the subtitle of your book is called searching for meaning in a throwaway world.

00:10:52.920 I mean, can you elaborate on that?

00:10:54.280 I mean, what is it about doing something by hand, um, that makes it, that provides meaning

00:11:00.420 in our lives?

00:11:03.160 I think that there are so many aspects of modern life that are out of our control.

00:11:10.740 We can't really do much about the economy.

00:11:12.420 We can do very little about politics other than vote.

00:11:16.680 And, um, the results are usually unsatisfactory.

00:11:20.920 People are, almost everybody can be with, with Congress.

00:11:26.740 There's not, uh, we, we have to rely on large institutions or education, um, all those kinds

00:11:34.000 of things.

00:11:34.520 And so people get this kind of learned helplessness of just accepting the solutions that are given

00:11:41.740 to them.

00:11:42.220 And once you start to take a little more control of the, the world of the, the human made and,

00:11:52.000 and, uh, maintained world around you and, and become a participant rather than a consumer,

00:11:58.400 it's, it's infectious.

00:12:00.900 And you start to develop a sense of self-efficacy that crosses over from one, one, uh, knowledge

00:12:10.380 set to another.

00:12:11.580 So if I am, if I have a problem with the home thermostat and I need to replace it and whether

00:12:19.940 I'm successful or not, I've learned something about it.

00:12:22.500 And then it makes you feel like you want to deal with other problems that happen or other

00:12:29.020 opportunities that you have.

00:12:30.240 You feel like, well, you know, I'm willing to give this a try.

00:12:33.880 And, um, that having that kind of, you know, even a small degree of control over the way

00:12:43.020 you live and being able to solve a problem that you have rather than paying someone else

00:12:49.920 to solve it for you is something that for, for me, it was, was a great feeling and has

00:12:57.300 changed my life.

00:12:58.300 Um, just yesterday, uh, I will, well, like three days ago, I noticed a whole bunch of

00:13:04.660 water pooling up underneath the washing machine.

00:13:08.560 And I, I had, it had been, I kind of noticed it in the back of my mind and I didn't know what

00:13:13.480 was going on.

00:13:14.000 It was in the garage.

00:13:14.720 And finally, like I listened and I heard this sound that was like water leaking.

00:13:20.580 And so it ended up that there was something leaking inside the washing machine.

00:13:24.980 And my first inclination is to find out my new washing machine.

00:13:28.360 But instead I like turn the, the source, the tap, uh, off that was leading to that, you

00:13:34.820 know, that the hoses that lead to the washing machine.

00:13:37.200 And, um, and I noticed that the sound went away.

00:13:40.440 So something's leaking inside the washing machine.

00:13:42.300 I ended up like figuring out how to take it apart.

00:13:44.160 I took the wrong pieces off at first and everything.

00:13:46.440 But finally I found a little plastic water inlet, um, valve with solenoids on it that

00:13:52.220 had a hairline fracture and water was spraying out in a fine mist.

00:13:55.920 And so I went online.

00:13:57.820 Thank, thank God for the internet being like this indexed parts store.

00:14:01.640 And I found a part and it was like $30 delivered in two days and I got it.

00:14:08.360 And yesterday I replaced it and put the new, um, water inlet valve in and the thing works.

00:14:15.900 And it's like, before I wrote this book, there's no way I would have been able to do that.

00:14:21.100 I wouldn't have had the, the knowledge or, or the, the, the tools that I'd need to do even.

00:14:26.920 And it would have been an expensive thing either, either getting someone out here to repair it

00:14:30.820 or, you know, my, my default solution, buying a new washing machine.

00:14:36.840 Well, that's awesome.

00:14:38.240 Um, I love how you mentioned that.

00:14:40.680 Yeah.

00:14:41.160 It gives you a sense of meaning and control in a world where we don't have much control, uh, over

00:14:46.980 our lives because these large institutions are handle a lot of the heavy lifting in society.

00:14:52.740 And what I, what I found, found interesting too, what I find interesting too, is that it seems like

00:14:57.760 even, uh, a lot of our, like the goods we use on a daily basis are being designed in a way now

00:15:05.460 that we can't tinker with them.

00:15:06.920 Like, you know, modern washing machines.

00:15:09.120 Like I have this washing machine, it's a Samsung washing machine.

00:15:11.640 And it's like, it's got this fancy computer, um, where it tells like how much water it exactly

00:15:17.280 needs.

00:15:17.780 And like, if that thing broke down, I don't know if I'd be able to fix it.

00:15:21.000 Um, or like, you know, you talk about like newer cars, even they're designed in a way

00:15:26.580 so that we have to go to a, you know, an authorized mechanic, the dealership to get it fixed because

00:15:31.820 there's some kind of computer involved or like, I've even seen some cars or heard about

00:15:35.900 some cars where they actually put like plastic over the engine.

00:15:39.500 Like you open up the hood and all you see is plastic.

00:15:42.640 Um, yes.

00:15:43.580 That's like Matthew Crawford, the author of shop classes, shop class as soul craft said,

00:15:48.440 when you lift the hood on a car, there's another hood.

00:15:52.420 And that's, I mean, this is something that happened to me last week.

00:15:55.840 The check engine light on my car came on.

00:15:58.380 I hate those check engine lights because they don't tell you what the problem is.

00:16:03.360 You have to take it.

00:16:04.220 So I took it to a garage, a Pep Boys and said, could you check it out and see what the problem

00:16:10.000 is?

00:16:10.260 And so they looked and they said, it's your, your smog pump, something that like it is with

00:16:16.240 the exhaust system.

00:16:17.680 And so they, um, said, let's, uh, we'll, we'll figure out what's going on with it.

00:16:23.260 So then a couple of hours later, they said, you know, your smog pump is fine.

00:16:27.300 There's no problem with it.

00:16:28.680 What's the problem is the computer that, uh, that deals with the smog pump and senses it

00:16:35.300 thinks that the smog pump's not working.

00:16:38.000 And so they did a smog test on it and it failed the smog test, not because there's anything

00:16:42.020 wrong with the emissions, but just because the computer is giving the wrong information.

00:16:45.740 They have to plug that, you know, that diagnostic port in where they do a smog test.

00:16:49.400 And so they said, you have to take it to a Volkswagen dealership to either, you know,

00:16:53.720 reprogram or replace the computer.

00:16:56.740 And, uh, that's, that's like frustrating.

00:16:59.620 And, um, you're, you're right.

00:17:01.620 But today's consumer technology is very, uh, user unfriendly.

00:17:06.860 They have all, you know, no user serviceable parts inside labels on them.

00:17:12.340 And, uh, the parts are glued together often rather than screwed together.

00:17:16.800 So you couldn't even open them if you wanted to.

00:17:19.400 And there are surface mount components instead of discrete components.

00:17:23.140 If you wanted to try to replace them, you would have a hard time.

00:17:26.540 I remember when I was really young, we had TV sets that had tubes in them.

00:17:31.620 And when the TV started to go wonky, if the picture was bad, my dad would take the back

00:17:36.640 off the TV and just pull the tubes out and you could drive down to the local drug store

00:17:42.360 and they would have a tube testing machine and you'd plug the tubes into these sockets

00:17:46.340 and a little needle on a meter would tell you whether or not the TV, the tubes were good

00:17:50.920 or not.

00:17:51.200 And then you could just buy the tubes and take them home.

00:17:54.660 Now, if a TV breaks, you just throw it in the trash and buy a new one.

00:17:58.920 Yeah.

00:17:59.280 Because, you know, one thing is they're a lot cheaper, but the other thing is you couldn't

00:18:02.260 fix it even if you wanted to.

00:18:04.040 Yeah.

00:18:04.580 And I mean, I guess the reason why companies do that, cause you know, you have to buy another

00:18:08.580 TV, right?

00:18:09.140 That's more money for them.

00:18:10.660 Um, because you have to buy a new TV instead of actually fixing it.

00:18:14.120 And what's interesting, I think he actually mentioned this in your book or it might have,

00:18:16.480 it might be confusing shop craft as soul craft, but like back in the day when they created

00:18:21.520 appliances or machines, um, companies did so with the, with the intention that the user

00:18:28.640 would actually repair it themselves, like that you could buy parts, right?

00:18:32.220 From, uh, for your John Deere tractor and fix it or your television set or your vacuum

00:18:37.920 cleaner.

00:18:38.240 And yeah, it's just so frustrating because you can't do that anymore.

00:18:41.380 Even, even if you wanted to, it's hard to do that.

00:18:43.860 Yes, exactly.

00:18:45.800 And that's why, um, some, some of my friends will only buy used appliances for their, for

00:18:53.080 their household use, like in industrial juicers and all like industrial and, and, uh, kind of

00:19:01.120 professional grade equipment because those are meant to be, uh, uh, easily repaired.

00:19:08.280 You know, there's like little access panels and parts that come out easily.

00:19:11.620 So like they'll buy, um, and, and, and, uh, a, a commercial grade espresso maker, because

00:19:19.260 they know that they'll be able to replace the parts rather than the kind of plastic one

00:19:23.860 you would buy.

00:19:24.960 And as soon as it's broken, you just go, well, time to throw it away and get a new one.

00:19:30.100 Okay.

00:19:30.140 So you mentioned the espresso maker, uh, which reminds me, um, of my next question is, are

00:19:35.800 there, let's talk about some of the projects that you highlight in your book.

00:19:38.660 Um, the espresso maker was one of them, uh, which was really interesting.

00:19:43.920 Um, was there, was that one you really enjoyed or is there another one that you really enjoyed?

00:19:47.860 And was there a project that just really frustrated you?

00:19:51.320 Um, but in the end was rewarding.

00:19:56.060 Yeah, I, I think, um, they, they all had different levels of frustration, but the one that,

00:20:02.540 um, I think was, was frustrating at first and then was rewarding.

00:20:06.860 And I might not have talked enough about the rewards in the book because the reward didn't

00:20:11.340 come until after I wrote it was beekeeping.

00:20:14.260 Um, I wanted to start keeping bees so that I could collect honey and, and honeycomb wax.

00:20:21.720 And I had a hard time because the, uh, the bees were absconding from the, the hive.

00:20:29.640 What we did, I worked with this guy, um, who is like the leader of a beekeeping club here

00:20:35.040 in LA.

00:20:36.060 And, um, instead of mail ordering bees, what he does is he runs a bee removal service and

00:20:43.840 then saves the bees and then populates people's hives like amateur beekeepers.

00:20:48.600 And so we, uh, fortunately or, or unfortunately had a whole bunch of bees in our rafters of,

00:20:55.540 of the house we live here in, here in Los Angeles.

00:20:58.520 And so Kirk and I got the bees out and put them into the, into a beehive in my backyard.

00:21:05.900 And it was hard to keep them in there.

00:21:08.040 They, they left.

00:21:09.280 And so we had to get more bees and, and, uh, put them in and, uh, they, uh, they finally

00:21:16.820 took, but they, it took a while so they didn't make honey.

00:21:21.880 And so finally I started getting honey after the book.

00:21:25.020 And then once I got the honey, it was like, oh, this is amazing.

00:21:27.560 And people were telling me that it was the best honey that they've ever tasted.

00:21:31.340 And, um, I ended up realizing how much fun it is to be a beekeeper and to give honey away

00:21:39.040 to people and use the wax for various products that we make.

00:21:43.040 And it's something also that my daughters really enjoy.

00:21:45.800 We just, uh, this summer harvested about a gallon of honey, which doesn't seem like a

00:21:52.040 lot, but it, it, uh, lasts a long time, especially because what I'll do is I put it in a little

00:21:56.840 tiny glass jars and just give it to friends when I, when they come over to visit or I go

00:22:01.540 to see them, it makes a great little gift to do that.

00:22:04.580 So that, that was like a great experience and, uh, I hope we will have those bees for

00:22:09.460 many years.

00:22:10.680 We're going to take a quick break for you, words from our sponsors.

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00:22:55.680 And now back to the show.

00:22:57.500 And it's also great for the environment, right?

00:22:59.120 Cause I guess there's a bee shortage going on.

00:23:01.980 Yeah.

00:23:02.260 The colony collapse disorder, which no one, there's a lot of theories about why, and it

00:23:08.140 could be a combination of several factors where the people treat the mites, which is

00:23:13.280 a parasite problem.

00:23:14.340 These little mites get on bees. 1.00

00:23:16.840 And, um, the fact that, uh, there's kind of a monoculture of bees where people are male

00:23:24.140 order bees and there's not enough diversity and then pesticides and all those kinds of things.

00:23:28.440 So the beekeeping club I belong to is called backward beekeepers.

00:23:33.300 And we do everything kind of backwards, uh, compared to most beekeepers.

00:23:38.000 It's, it's, there's no chemical treatments.

00:23:40.200 We really just kind of let the bees be bees.

00:23:43.880 And, um, it's almost like the less you bother them, the happier they are.

00:23:48.340 You just provide them with a nice place to, to live and let them be bees. 1.00

00:23:54.000 And that, uh, has once I finally, once they finally took it, that's been a great, great

00:24:01.460 way to do it.

00:24:02.360 So are you, so you're still beekeeping?

00:24:04.380 Are there any, are there any other projects that you, you know, you started, uh, that you

00:24:08.780 talked about in the book that you're still doing today?

00:24:10.900 Uh, yeah, I, I really like fermented foods.

00:24:16.680 I think that, uh, besides tasting really good, there's, there's health benefits, the kind of

00:24:21.780 probiotic aspects of them.

00:24:23.540 So making sauerkraut and yogurt is not only a fun thing to do and, and really pretty easy

00:24:31.920 to do, but it's actually one, um, do it yourself kind of pursuit where it actually will save you

00:24:39.840 money.

00:24:40.080 There's a lot of DIY things that are much more expensive than, than, uh, buying something.

00:24:45.920 Like if you wanted to make your own TV or your own MP3 player or something, it will cost

00:24:50.360 you 10 times as much as it would to buy something.

00:24:53.900 But with, with, uh, yogurt and especially sauerkraut, you can make it for a fraction of how much you

00:25:01.060 would pay for it in the store.

00:25:02.800 And then you also know what's going into it and you can age it the right amount.

00:25:06.700 And just, uh, really, I highly recommend doing those things yourself.

00:25:12.800 Yeah.

00:25:13.200 When I read that, I was like, I need to get started on this because I, I love sauerkraut.

00:25:17.440 Yeah, it's great.

00:25:18.860 And I just, I have a sitting on my desk right now, some, some yogurt culture that, uh, makes

00:25:26.500 yogurt at room temperature so that you don't need to heat it up.

00:25:30.420 You know, some people buy like heating blankets or special, like little incubation, um, devices,

00:25:37.340 which I had been using, but I want to try this.

00:25:40.480 Um, uh, you know, you just set it on your shelf, set, set the milk on your shelf with

00:25:46.380 a starter.

00:25:47.220 And then once you use the starter, that's it, you don't have to keep buying more starter.

00:25:50.100 You can just use the old yogurt to make new yogurt.

00:25:52.640 So it's going to be fun to see how, how it turns out.

00:25:55.960 That's awesome.

00:25:57.140 Okay.

00:25:57.600 So Mark, a lot of, you know, on our website, we, we do some DIY stuff, um, articles every

00:26:03.320 now and then, and we get a lot of young men who are just really keyed in on this.

00:26:07.580 Like they're just, they're really interested.

00:26:09.620 Um, but what's interesting is like when I talked to my dad or talk to my, my grandpa,

00:26:13.580 who's like 94, um, it seems like a lot of this DIY stuff, right?

00:26:18.300 Like how to fix things or how to make your own food or how to process, you know, your own

00:26:23.420 deer that you might've hunted, it was that sort of information, that sort of knowledge

00:26:27.720 seemed like it was just naturally passed down to them.

00:26:30.020 Like they just, I don't know, I guess the way things, the way we were as a society, 40,

00:26:35.120 50 years ago, it just, that information just got passed down naturally.

00:26:38.540 But nowadays it just seems like younger generations just don't get that sort of stuff.

00:26:43.320 Um, why do you think that is?

00:26:45.100 Why do you think younger generations lack DIY skills?

00:26:48.800 Well, I think, um, looking pretty far back, like over a hundred years ago, in 1900, 80%

00:26:59.000 of Americans either lived full time on farms or they worked every day on farms and lived

00:27:06.020 in a very rural area.

00:27:09.080 And to, to be a farm worker or a farmer, you really have to be a, a jack of all trades.

00:27:16.960 You have to be really good at fixing and maintaining farm machinery and be really, um, innovative

00:27:24.580 and resourceful in coming up with ways to, to make new machinery and all that kind of

00:27:30.440 stuff.

00:27:30.640 So every farm had a working machine shop and wood shop on the premises.

00:27:36.300 So people, 80% of Americans were, were really good at making things.

00:27:40.840 And then if you compare today, only 2% of Americans live and work on farms.

00:27:46.860 So I think that's, that's a big thing.

00:27:49.360 Um, we don't need to, we don't need to make or fix our own stuff.

00:27:54.880 Even, you know, people in the fifties who were repairing their own TV sets by pulling

00:27:59.800 the back off and taking the tubes out had that kind of, uh, mindset that the world was

00:28:06.980 something that presented problems that they could solve as individuals today.

00:28:12.940 We really focus hard on these kind of hermetically sealed solutions to everything.

00:28:18.660 And if something goes wrong, the answer is either buy one or call someone to come over

00:28:25.220 to repair it for you.

00:28:27.500 And so that's, that's, that's made people, um, um, you know, unable to, to make anything.

00:28:38.340 And so for, for us, for my generation and people younger than me, the idea of making things

00:28:45.740 is kind of novel and it, uh, is, is, uh, you know, once you rediscover how, how great it

00:28:54.920 is to do that kind of thing, you want to kind of shout it from the rooftop.

00:28:58.480 And I think that's like what make magazine does.

00:29:01.600 And what my book is, is like, Hey, everybody, this is really cool.

00:29:04.880 You know, your, your father and grandfather and mother and grandmother were doing this

00:29:10.140 kind of stuff and they had to do it.

00:29:14.200 Um, you don't have to do it, but really you should look into it because there's something

00:29:18.820 that you get out of it that, that you can't, uh, you know, it's an, an experience and,

00:29:24.280 and, and a feeling of, uh, fulfillment that you can't replicate any other way.

00:29:29.300 Yeah.

00:29:29.800 And it's also very counter-cultural in a lot of ways.

00:29:32.400 You know, we have a very consumer culture, um, but, uh, doing things by hand, uh, just

00:29:38.800 totally cuts against the grain, um, against that, that pervasive culture we have in our

00:29:44.660 society.

00:29:45.820 Yeah, definitely.

00:29:47.540 Okay.

00:29:48.040 So what, but what do you think, um, keeps people from trying to make things by hand?

00:29:54.020 Cause I know you hear a lot of people talk about it.

00:29:56.000 Like they talk wistfully about, oh, you know, I want to become a craftsman and make, you

00:30:01.780 know, these wonderful handmade goods, or I want to, I want to, you know, change the oil

00:30:05.640 on my car, but a lot of times they never get around to doing it.

00:30:10.520 From your experience, what do you think is the biggest thing that holds people back from

00:30:14.360 trying to do things by hand?

00:30:16.460 I think that people have been trained to avoid making mistakes as much as, or, or not avoid,

00:30:25.960 but, uh, they've been trained to fear mistakes to the point where they don't want to take

00:30:32.520 anything new on because, um, they're afraid they might make a mistake.

00:30:36.960 And as soon as they do make a mistake, they quickly lose interest and get discouraged from,

00:30:42.360 from doing that anymore.

00:30:43.580 And I think one of the reasons for that is that schools train people that, uh, mistakes

00:30:50.860 are something to be avoided because when you make a mistake in school, you get a bad grade.

00:30:55.660 So you learn from childhood that mistakes are bad.

00:30:59.180 So if you are doing something and you make a mistake, you think, I don't want to do that

00:31:02.860 anymore.

00:31:03.200 It's just like wired into you.

00:31:05.660 But the fact of the matter is that mistakes are a really important way to learn.

00:31:11.620 And that the, the makers that I've met, excuse me, the makers I've met who are like what,

00:31:19.700 who I consider alpha makers who are really good at making stuff.

00:31:22.400 The thing that is different from them and the rest of the population isn't that they have a lot

00:31:28.360 of skills. The true important difference is that they have learned to accept and even embrace

00:31:36.220 mistakes as part of the process of creating things. And they don't go out and intentionally try to make

00:31:42.960 mistakes, but they know that mistakes are going to be made, that they're going to make mistakes and

00:31:48.240 that they're going to use them as ways to learn and as sources of inspiration and creativity.

00:31:55.560 And so that was something that I learned through the process of, of doing this stuff is that

00:32:03.760 mistakes are okay. And, um, I actually now kind of build that into whatever I am making that I

00:32:13.240 think, all right, this is just going to be the first time I make something and I'll probably have

00:32:17.580 to do it four times before it's good enough for me to, to use and keep as a permanent thing or write

00:32:24.560 about. And it's fine. It's, it's like, don't expect something to be perfect the first time you

00:32:30.580 do it. And, um, that, that has been like a big, uh, perception changer for me.

00:32:38.360 And I'm sure that's, that carries over to other areas of life, uh, as well. Your, maybe your work,

00:32:44.460 uh, your family, I mean, even yourself, I mean, I guess maybe you're not as hard as in your,

00:32:48.140 on yourself when you do screw up in some other aspect of like personal development saying,

00:32:52.540 look, you know, I'm a, this is a process. Okay. I take that mistake, get some feedback,

00:32:56.780 learn from it and move on.

00:32:59.120 Yeah, definitely. It's that, that's, it's such a great attitude to have is thinking,

00:33:04.560 you know, I made a mistake and what did I learn from it and how am I going to do things differently?

00:33:09.220 What, what did this mistake teach me?

00:33:11.960 That's awesome.

00:33:12.480 And, and yeah. And so it's, yeah, just not equating a mistake with failure. The only time

00:33:18.500 you fail is if the mistake discourages you to the point where you give up.

00:33:25.680 Yeah. I've had instances where I tried to, I took on some DIY projects and yeah, I, I, I messed up on

00:33:33.100 the, I, what I was trying, here's this one that I, I, it comes to mind was I wanted to make a

00:33:37.100 teleprompter for my DSLR because I do YouTube videos and I'm really bad about, you know,

00:33:44.520 just kind of talking off the cuff. So I wanted to teleprompter and I found some instructions online,

00:33:48.540 how you can make this teleprompter with wood, with some like picture frames and a few pieces of wood

00:33:54.400 and a piece of glass. And I remember I got into, I was really excited. And then I just, I totally

00:33:59.500 biffed it up and it wasn't salvageable. And I had, I'd have to go back to Home Depot and get some

00:34:04.680 more supplies. And I was like, you know what, I'm just going to, I'll just go and find one and

00:34:09.620 buy it instead. And so, yeah, I really feel kind of ashamed that I did that, you know, that it gave

00:34:16.700 up on it. Cause it's like the, the ruins of this project are like in my little, in my garage in a

00:34:21.040 corner, just sitting there. Every time I walk by, it sort of mocks, you know, laughs at me.

00:34:26.040 Well, another thing, you know, that, that I learned also is that you, you have to, um,

00:34:34.680 keep in mind the, the level of complexity of a project that you're taking on, what works with

00:34:41.980 the amount of time that you have, if you have kids or not, um, if it works with, uh, you know,

00:34:48.440 the, the space that you, you have, the tools that you have. And sometimes those things aren't right.

00:34:54.060 And you can always go back to them, um, and set your sights on a project that is manageable

00:34:59.580 and challenges you at a, at, at a level that is appropriate for your, uh, current skill level

00:35:08.400 and, um, in an, and environment. So I, I, I think I probably, I probably did bite off more than I

00:35:15.400 could chew. So I guess being humble, uh, is an important aspect of the DIY. Yeah, definitely.

00:35:21.520 You know, see yourself for what, see the skills for, you know, see yourself as you really are,

00:35:25.280 not as what you want to be. Um, okay. So here's another, like whenever we publish a DIY article,

00:35:31.380 like how to build something or how to make something yourself or how to fix something in

00:35:36.120 your house, uh, in the comments, a common, uh, complaint or a common question we get is,

00:35:43.760 you know, people say that, Oh, it's a waste of time and money to do things yourself. You know,

00:35:48.260 just pay for it. Um, you know, time is better spent doing something else. You could be

00:35:53.280 working on a side project that actually earns you money instead of, you know, spending time

00:35:57.980 fixing a, patching a hole in your drywall. Um, how do you respond to those people who say that

00:36:03.400 DIY is a waste of time and money? Well, you know, I think in most cases they're, they're right about

00:36:12.280 the money. It costs more money to, to do something yourself than, than it does to buy it. And that wasn't

00:36:20.120 always true, but it is true now. So when we, when, uh, I became a, a chicken farmer, small scale

00:36:27.160 chicken farmer with six chickens, the amount of time and money I spent building a chicken coop and

00:36:33.400 then taking care of the chickens and stuff, those were the most expensive eggs that I've ever bought.

00:36:39.700 And so they're right on that level. But then the thing is like the, the eggs that I did get,

00:36:47.880 I appreciated so much. And the, the joy it brought me to, to work with the chickens and collect the

00:36:55.960 eggs and have my kids collect the eggs was, was really worth every penny that I spent.

00:37:02.120 If you, if you, if you get involved in something, you care about it so much more. You know, if you

00:37:08.760 build your own chair, there's a lot of things that happen. You could probably buy a nice chair

00:37:15.800 for less money than, than a chair that you built yourself. And it, it might even look better. But if

00:37:21.800 you build that chair, you're going to take care of it and maintain it because it's your chair. If it

00:37:27.160 breaks, you know how to fix it. Um, it makes you more observant, uh, of the world around you. You

00:37:35.340 start looking at how other chairs are put together and how they're fastened and oh, how did that guy

00:37:39.660 design? How, how did they join the, the wood there? Um, that level of, you know, seeing the world with

00:37:46.720 new eyes is really, really great. And it also, one of the cool, the best things about it is it makes

00:37:53.080 you appreciate how, how skilled and artistic, uh, other people are. When you see a beautifully

00:38:01.100 built chair, it makes you appreciate it on a completely new level before you wouldn't have

00:38:06.280 even noticed that or thought about it. So is that a waste of time and money to build a chair? If you

00:38:12.340 gain all of that, uh, kind of new awareness for some people, maybe, but for me, it, it's very much

00:38:19.780 worth it. I'm there with you totally on that. Um, Mark, how, so I think you've mentioned it throughout

00:38:25.840 our conversation, but how has becoming a tinkerer or a DIYer, uh, made you a better man in other areas

00:38:33.360 of your life? Um, I feel that it has given me the, the, uh, courage to take on all sorts of challenges.

00:38:49.780 That I would have, uh, uh, either avoided or outsourced in the past. So, um, I think that that

00:39:01.740 level of, of, uh, confidence that it's given me in all aspects of my life has really helped a lot.

00:39:09.280 You know, I, I feel like, um, once I started kind of changing the world around me, I looked at myself

00:39:16.160 and, and decided to do something about my kind of sedentary lifestyle with a, with a not very good

00:39:23.900 diet and started really researching ways to exercise and stay fit and the kinds of foods to eat

00:39:33.740 and improving my sleep and all those kinds of things. And I think I've, I've really improved my,

00:39:39.480 my health quite a bit. I've, I've lost a lot of weight. I think I've gained a lot of, uh,

00:39:44.500 I've become much, much leaner than I was. And that just helps me feel, uh, you know, stronger and

00:39:51.940 healthier and better able to take care of my, my wife and kids too. When, when you feel good

00:39:59.500 mentally and physically like that, you're able to work harder and work smarter. And, uh, I think

00:40:06.160 it's good for the whole family. That's awesome. Do you, do you feel like, um, you mentioned when you're,

00:40:11.840 when you're on the Island with your family that you lost that social, that social network has

00:40:16.560 becoming a DIY or like expanded your social network in some, in some ways? Yeah, it, it definitely has

00:40:23.060 because, um, I, uh, one of the cool things about the maker movement is that you have seen the, the

00:40:32.100 rise of, of, uh, they're called maker spaces or hacker spaces. They're places where people like chip in

00:40:37.440 a little bit of money every month, $50 or so. And they get access to a room full of tools and

00:40:43.500 equipment. And then most importantly, they get access to other people who are also into making.

00:40:49.920 And so I will, uh, go to these places whenever I travel. And there's, there's one here in LA

00:40:56.100 called crash space and it's great hanging out with them and learning from them. And, uh, I pick up so

00:41:02.900 many ideas from what they have to say and have made friends with, with these folks. So, uh, I think the,

00:41:09.800 the social network aspect of making is one of the most important things. Every year we have something

00:41:14.820 called maker fair and we have one in New York and one in San Mateo near San Francisco. There are two

00:41:21.400 official ones. And the one in San Mateo gets like 120,000 people a year. And they love the big thing is,

00:41:27.960 you know, talking and hanging out with each other and seeing what other people have made and learning

00:41:31.600 from them. And lots of deals are made and lots of collaborations are formed there. And then there

00:41:36.560 are many maker fairs that have attendance of, you know, 10, 20,000 all over the world. So making is

00:41:42.360 a very, uh, big social, you know, the social aspect of, of being a maker is huge. That's something

00:41:49.020 there's one of those mini maker fairs are actually, it's coming to Tulsa. Uh, so yeah, me and my

00:41:54.380 brother-in-law, we're going to go check it out. We're really excited. Oh, good. So, well, Mark,

00:41:58.820 do you have any final bits of advice, um, to our listeners who are, you know, they want to do this,

00:42:03.720 like they want to become a tinker. They want to become a DIY or, um, any final bits of advice

00:42:08.440 for them to help them get started? Yeah, I would say like, you know, my, my particular interest in

00:42:14.300 when I wrote the book, um, made by hand was that I thought that food would be a good project for me

00:42:21.480 because, you know, a, I like to eat, uh, and it's something that I do three times a day. And so

00:42:27.280 having, uh, getting involved with that would have a pretty profound effect on my, my life. So my

00:42:36.160 advice would be to find something you're passionate about. So, you know, say you're interested in,

00:42:40.520 in music, look into DIY music, making your own musical instruments or making your own recording

00:42:45.620 studio. It's got to be something that you are interested in and that is going to, uh, have

00:42:53.160 lasting value. You know, I have friends who are into robotics and make really cool robots. I

00:42:59.380 personally would not be that interested in doing it because I might have fun making the robot and

00:43:03.520 everything. And then, but once you're done, you have this, a robot and I'm like, okay, you know,

00:43:07.360 it's going to kind of walk around and avoid the walls, but I would play with it for 15 minutes and

00:43:11.640 then it would go in the closet to find something you're passionate about. And then the other thing I

00:43:15.540 would say is find, figure out an appropriate, appropriate challenge level. If you aim too

00:43:23.720 high, you're going to get discouraged and, and abandon it. And if you aim too low, you're going

00:43:29.280 to get bored. And so, um, uh, the, uh, Michael, she sent me high wrote a book called flow, which

00:43:36.800 you probably heard about where he talks about this state where you are sufficiently challenged by

00:43:41.820 something that you become engrossed in it. And you don't even, if you're hungry, you don't think

00:43:47.260 about eating. If you're tired, you don't think about sleeping. You're just like, this is all I

00:43:51.520 want to do. I don't want to do anything else. Um, find that and do it. Very good. Well, Mark,

00:43:59.100 it's been a pleasure. It's been a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much, um, for your

00:44:03.360 time. You bet, Brad. Thanks a lot. It was really fun talking with you. Our guest today was Mark

00:44:08.780 Fraunfelder. He is the author of the book made by hand searching for meaning in a throwaway world.

00:44:13.860 And you can find his book on amazon.com. Well, that wraps up another edition of the art of

00:44:24.520 manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the art of manliness website

00:44:29.040 at art of manliness.com. And until next time, stay manly.

00:44:43.860 Thank you.

The Art of Manliness - April 04, 2014

Episode #50： Made By Hand With Mark Frauenfelder

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