The Art of Manliness - Episode #51： The Defining Decade With Dr. Meg Jay

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00:00:51.180 Brett McKay here.

00:00:52.280 Welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:55.440 While I'm excited about today's episode,

00:00:56.720 If you've been following our website for a while now,

00:00:59.460 you may have seen us reference a book called

00:01:01.780 The Defining Decade, Why Your 20s Matter and How to Make the Most of Them Now.

00:01:05.980 It was written by a clinical psychologist named Dr. Meg Jay out of the University of Virginia.

00:01:10.920 And Dr. Jay specializes in working with 20-somethings, 20-year-olds.

00:01:15.200 And I know a lot of you who are listening to the podcast are in that age bracket.

00:01:18.340 And the book is basically about the observations and research that has shown that 20-year-olds these days have a lot of anxieties, concerns, worries.

00:01:29.160 And those worries and concerns come from treating your 20s as an extended adolescence instead of treating them as the time to launch yourself into adulthood.

00:01:39.020 A lot of people these days say that, you know, 30 is the new 20, that when adulthood doesn't begin until you're 30, you can kind of not worry about your 20s.

00:01:49.020 But the research has shown that that's not the case.

00:01:52.220 There are a lot of advantages to your 20s.

00:01:55.460 And if you don't take advantage of them now, there'll be some consequences later on in life.

00:02:01.220 So in her book, she talks about those issues and concerns.

00:02:04.980 But she also talks about things that 20-year-olds can do now to ensure that they have a fulfilling and enriched career, relationships, and adult life.

00:02:15.140 So today I'm talking to Dr. Jay.

00:02:16.800 And we're going to be talking about our book.

00:02:18.320 And we're going to talk about why 30 isn't the new 20 and what you can do now in your 20s to make the most of your adult life.

00:02:26.760 So listen in.

00:02:31.880 All right.

00:02:32.360 Well, Dr. Jay, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today.

00:02:35.420 Okay.

00:02:35.740 So you've kind of caused a splash recently with your book and your TED Talk about 20-somethings.

00:02:44.400 You wrote your book called The Defining Decade, Why Your 20s Matter, and What You Can Do to Make the Most of Them Now.

00:02:54.320 Why are our 20s so important?

00:02:56.640 Why do you call it the defining decade?

00:02:59.820 I mean, it is the foundation for your adult life, which is why I like to work with that age group, because you can do a lot of good for people getting in on the action early.

00:03:10.880 Okay.

00:03:11.980 And so, well, despite, you know, it sounds like, hey, the 20s are really important.

00:03:15.560 It's a formative part of your life.

00:03:17.520 But it seems like, as a society, at least, you know, in the last half century, we sort of treat our 20s as something disposable.

00:03:27.760 Or, you know, we have this idea that you talk a lot about that 30 is the new 20, that life begins at 30.

00:03:32.620 And what happens before then is like, ah, it's not that important.

00:03:35.900 Yeah.

00:03:36.240 I mean, why do you think that is?

00:03:40.000 Why are we doing that?

00:03:42.020 This is why we're doing that.

00:03:43.520 It's understandable how that came to be.

00:03:46.380 When you think about it, we just need to sort of rethink how we're going to adjust to this.

00:03:52.320 But really the classic adult milestones, if we think about, okay, what do adults do?

00:03:57.500 Well, let's see.

00:03:58.160 They have jobs.

00:03:59.180 They have houses.

00:04:00.220 They have partners.

00:04:01.220 They have children.

00:04:02.180 I mean, most people would agree they're in charge of their lives.

00:04:05.580 They get to choose where they live, what they do, all that.

00:04:08.500 And most people would agree that's pretty much what an adult sounds like.

00:04:11.700 You don't have to do all of those things or in any certain order or in any certain way.

00:04:15.520 But roughly that's what adulthood looks like.

00:04:18.720 But now a lot of those milestones in terms of having a clearly defined career or owning a home or an apartment or partnering with someone or having kids,

00:04:28.300 these things happen now later than they used to.

00:04:31.280 And that's for a lot of good reasons, because we have birth control now, because women are working now, unfortunately, because the economy is not so great now. 0.99

00:04:41.540 And so a lot of the kind of classic adult moves don't happen at 21 anymore.

00:04:48.500 They happen at 31.

00:04:50.200 And that is okay.

00:04:51.700 It's actually potentially good.

00:04:53.280 It just depends on what you make of the 20s in terms of the years leading up to that, that, fortunately, the downside of adult milestones happening a bit later is that people start to feel like their 20s don't count and that they're not relevant to adulthood,

00:05:11.420 when really they remain developmentally a sweet spot.

00:05:16.460 Okay, so what are the consequences?

00:05:19.180 I mean, you, apart from being a researcher, you're a clinical psychologist, correct?

00:05:24.540 That's right.

00:05:25.340 I'm actually primarily a clinical psychologist.

00:05:28.880 I'm primarily in private practice.

00:05:31.320 So most of my hours are spent behind closed doors with 20-somethings and 30-somethings hearing about how their lives are going and how they're not going.

00:05:40.440 So that's primarily what I do.

00:05:44.160 So there are downsides to not to the milestones being pushed, but to how we've interpreted that.

00:05:52.440 And so there's a really great quote by Leonard Bernstein that I use a lot, and it goes,

00:05:58.300 To achieve great things, you need a plan and not quite enough time.

00:06:02.600 So what happens is, I mean, I don't think there's anybody out there who thinks, you know, I don't want a great life.

00:06:10.880 I mean, people want great lives, but when they hear 30's the new 20, everybody does all that later, adulthood is in your 30s now,

00:06:18.940 then they lose that urgency.

00:06:21.960 They lose the fire.

00:06:23.960 They lose the relevance in their 20s, and so they end up not making the most of that time.

00:06:31.040 I mean, if you're going to partner later, you're going to define your career a bit later, you're going to buy a house a bit later,

00:06:37.040 then you have some years in there to do something with that.

00:06:40.480 But people aren't sure what to do with that, or they aren't sure why they should bother doing anything with that if everybody says,

00:06:46.840 Oh, adulthood's for later.

00:06:49.160 I mean, if you think about, think back to high school or college, let's say you had a paper due March 1st.

00:06:56.240 And somewhere around mid-February, you might start to get a little bit worried about it and do some of the research.

00:07:01.500 And then your professor walks in and says, Oh, I've pushed the date.

00:07:04.300 It's now April 1st.

00:07:06.040 So how many people said, Great, I have four extra weeks to work on my paper.

00:07:11.180 I'm going to make it even better than before.

00:07:12.900 I mean, that's just not how we operate.

00:07:15.600 Most people will say, Great, I will push this aside and think about it in a month.

00:07:19.640 And so that is, of course, the tendency for 20-somethings is they feel overwhelmed and anxious and not sure how to get started on life.

00:07:29.680 And then culture says, Oh, don't worry.

00:07:33.100 Everything's for your 30s anyway.

00:07:35.580 So, yeah, you sense a lot of anxiety.

00:07:39.080 And I guess, yeah, a lot of anxiety amongst your clients, I imagine.

00:07:42.540 A lot of anxiety.

00:07:44.080 You know, the upside of kind of the do-it-yourself life now that, you know, we have a lot more choices than we used to.

00:07:53.620 You could live anywhere in the country or maybe even in the world.

00:07:57.340 You could take up a lot of different careers.

00:07:59.380 You know, adulthood can look a lot of different ways.

00:08:02.480 It doesn't have to be a cookie-cutter experience anymore.

00:08:05.760 And that's wonderful.

00:08:07.340 But the difficulty is that puts the burden on the individual to figure out, So what do I do now?

00:08:13.340 And that makes people feel overwhelmed and anxious.

00:08:16.820 And when people feel anxious, they like to avoid the things that make them feel anxious.

00:08:20.460 So they go, Ugh, I'm not going to think about that now.

00:08:23.840 I'm going to distract myself or kill time or, you know, whatever their habit may be to kick that can a little further down the road.

00:08:33.660 And I imagine there's also a feeling of not only anxiety and a sense of being overwhelmed, but I'm sure there's, like, an immense amount of pressure, too, as you approach 30.

00:08:44.500 You're like, I'm about to turn 30.

00:08:46.440 I don't have a husband.

00:08:48.260 I don't have a wife.

00:08:49.060 I don't have a job.

00:08:49.960 I mean, and you feel like you have to, like, do all these things in a short amount of time.

00:08:54.120 Yes, and so, you know, and necessity is the mother of invention.

00:09:00.840 So, I mean, that's kind of, I mean, I think a feeling of urgency is good.

00:09:07.060 But many 20-somethings, I mean, I've seen this so many times that the early 20-somethings in my office are stressed and anxious but avoidant.

00:09:18.600 And then by the time they're in their later 20s, they're stressed and anxious and panicked because they can't avoid anymore.

00:09:28.840 And so what I try to do is to help 20-somethings of all ages just go ahead and engage with what's making them anxious.

00:09:37.860 It doesn't mean you have to have a desk job or a briefcase tomorrow, but it just means to take up intentionally what you think you might like out of adulthood.

00:09:47.220 As scary as that may be, you can do it one step at a time, but just to really start to look at it instead of just postpone and then later feel like you may not have the time to get the life you want.

00:10:00.700 So you devoted an entire section, which I thought was completely fascinating, about sort of like the neuroscience behind the 20-something brain.

00:10:09.740 And this is actually kind of a new discovery because we thought that there was like a child brain and an adult brain and that was it.

00:10:17.720 But you're –

00:10:18.740 So tell us a bit more about that.

00:10:19.880 What's the difference between like a 20-something brain and a 30-year-old brain or a 15-year-old brain?

00:10:24.980 Yeah, a lot actually.

00:10:26.580 So we used to think that the brain was mostly fully baked by about eight or so years old, and that's because it had reached most of its volume in terms of the brain size.

00:10:39.960 But as science became more sophisticated and we weren't just looking at brain volume, we were looking at connections in the brain, what actually happens in the brain,

00:10:48.260 scientists discovered – not me, I was not one of those researchers – but researchers discovered that the brain goes through two critical periods of growth.

00:10:58.080 One is in the first five years of life, so zero to five.

00:11:02.240 And you hear about that a lot of that's when kids – you've got to learn to talk zero to five or it's going to be very difficult to do that after.

00:11:09.940 You've got to start learning to read.

00:11:11.520 That's when a lot of early development really is laid down in those first five years.

00:11:19.960 And then people thought that just mostly grew from there.

00:11:23.660 But they found out that the brain actually went through another critical period of growth, so another big explosion of neural connections in the teen and 20-something years.

00:11:36.760 So somewhere around ages 15 to 20, there's an explosion of connections in the brain, which actually leads to a bit of a temporarily entangled mess.

00:11:48.540 But ultimately, through pruning, you have kind of a new brain.

00:11:55.020 Your brain is wiring itself to be an adult.

00:11:58.060 And a lot of the action shifts from the more emotion-driven parts of the brain to the more reason-driven parts of the brain, such as the frontal lobe.

00:12:07.060 So this is still going on in your 20s, and this is new to 20-somethings, this shift to frontal lobe thinking.

00:12:16.560 So what your frontal lobe does is that's a part of your brain that thinks about time, and it thinks about probability, and it thinks about uncertainty.

00:12:25.720 So this is new for 20-somethings, to not just think about the now, but also think about the later, to not just think about black and white answers, but okay, what about all those questions that don't have black and white answers, like what am I going to do with my life, where should I live, what kind of person is for me?

00:12:45.940 I mean, these are really questions that they're gray areas.

00:12:50.980 They're based on probabilities, not on guarantees.

00:12:53.620 So that's all new thinking for 20-somethings.

00:12:57.540 Now, some people hear that science, and they think, oh, well, I'll wait until I'm 30 to do something because my brain will be fully clicked on then.

00:13:05.700 But that's actually not how it works, that you get better at thinking in gray areas and at thinking about the future and planning for the future if you practice that, and your 20-something brain wants to practice that.

00:13:21.660 But it's new.

00:13:24.040 So, you know, 20-somethings in general are very uncomfortable with uncertainty.

00:13:29.680 They're very uncomfortable with gray areas.

00:13:31.760 They feel overwhelmed about the future, and usually by your 30s, hopefully, you've engaged with that enough or you've practiced that enough that you start to be able to do that with a little bit less stress.

00:13:45.260 So I think you talk a lot about in your book how, you mentioned it just a minute ago, how 20-somethings are very, they have a present bias.

00:13:52.780 Yes.

00:13:52.980 They're just focused on here and now.

00:13:54.080 I mean, how does that kind of shoot 20-somethings in the foot later on?

00:13:57.020 Yeah, well, you know, so if we go back to what the frontal lobe is doing, so it's thinking about time and probability and uncertainty.

00:14:06.620 So these are new concepts, really, for 20-somethings.

00:14:12.000 I mean, who mostly have gone through life with semester-sized chunk living.

00:14:18.060 So this is a different way of thinking.

00:14:20.460 So they're more prone to cognitive errors that we make at all ages.

00:14:23.560 But two of the cognitive errors, one is present bias, and that is I'm going to go with what makes me happy now, and I'll worry about later, later.

00:14:32.660 One reason that they're so prone to doing that is they're also prone to optimism bias, and that's the idea that nothing bad is ever going to happen to me.

00:14:40.300 So what happens is 20-somethings are, you know, without slowing down and really forcing themselves to think about the future and really think things through,

00:14:52.620 they have a tendency to make short-sighted work or love decisions that may not have legs because their minds are very present-oriented, and they're very optimistic.

00:15:03.440 It's hard for them to imagine that the choices they make today might hurt tomorrow.

00:15:07.260 Okay, so let's talk – I mean, this is a podcast, a website kind of geared more towards men.

00:15:14.240 So let's talk about this.

00:15:15.360 Are there any gender differences between the problems and frustrations your clients experience?

00:15:22.960 I mean, do men experience their 20-somethings differently than your women clients?

00:15:27.260 And if there are differences, I mean, what's the cause?

00:15:29.520 Is it more cultural?

00:15:30.900 Is it economics?

00:15:31.580 Or are there differences between the male and female brain that might cause those differences in experiences? 0.98

00:15:38.700 You know, well, I will say this.

00:15:40.640 I have a Ph.D. in clinical psychology and in gender studies from Berkeley, so I have thought a lot, read a lot, taught a lot about gender.

00:15:50.060 What's taught me more than anything about gender, honestly, is two things.

00:15:56.020 One is working with people behind closed doors, 20-something men and women.

00:15:59.560 The other is having a son.

00:16:00.960 So I think about the experience of being a 20-something man differently than I did when I was a Ph.D. student reading feminist theory,

00:16:11.280 that what I see doesn't always match up to what we hear in the media.

00:16:17.340 And what especially stands out to me is what a bad rap 20-something men get.

00:16:26.560 Right now, I'm actually not doing a lot of media right now because of my schedule,

00:16:31.180 but I really wanted to make the time to talk to you today because I have a real soft spot in my heart for 20-something men

00:16:38.200 who in my office are nothing like the sort of lazy, no-good, waste of space that they're made out to be in the media.

00:16:47.740 You know, we hear a lot about that now of the crisis of men and what happened to the men.

00:16:53.200 And, you know, I see that they're struggling just as much as the women, but they just have fewer places to turn with that. 0.99

00:17:01.740 And that it is very different to be a 20-something man than a 20-something woman,

00:17:06.020 partly because you don't have any support or it's not culturally okay for you to be struggling as much as the women.

00:17:15.540 Yeah, I can totally see that happening.

00:17:18.080 Because you're right, there aren't a lot of places where men can go to, you know, young men can talk about these sort of things.

00:17:26.340 And maybe the mentorship that was once there or the community that was once there for men, a lot of that's gone for whatever reason.

00:17:36.900 Right.

00:17:37.280 It is really sad.

00:17:40.300 I mean, do you feel like the men that come in there, are they more worried about their career?

00:17:44.260 Are they just as worried about relationships as women are? 0.98

00:17:46.860 Is it pretty much the same thing?

00:17:49.280 I mean, it's the same thing, but in a different way.

00:17:51.960 I think all, you know, a million years ago, Freud said, love and work, work and love, that's all there is.

00:17:57.640 And, of course, there's more to life than that.

00:18:00.580 But mostly, that's what my clients want to talk about, work and love.

00:18:05.480 And for women, it's different because they feel, you know, a modern woman, and I would count myself among them, feel like I could have a rocking career, I could choose to stay home and be super mom, maybe I'll do both.

00:18:22.480 And I think that I have a lot of ways I could go with this and not disappoint anyone.

00:18:27.240 And I don't think, as much as we like to say that, you know, I don't know that there's no gender bias anymore, I don't think men have quite those same choices, that they feel a lot more burdened by the need to work.

00:18:46.340 They know that they need to work to be, or they feel that they need to work and to be successful, to kind of be respected as men.

00:18:54.660 They fear that they're going to work and one day be responsible for a whole gaggle of people, like a partner and children, and that that's a very real possibility.

00:19:07.040 Whereas I think most women don't go into work thinking, gosh, one day I might have to support five people. 0.99

00:19:12.900 But that 20 people feel afraid that that's going to happen to them, that they may not have the equal partner that they're hoping for.

00:19:22.780 So work has a very different kind of pressure to it because they feel especially stressed about finding something good, finding something successful, but also wanting to find something that they enjoy.

00:19:39.400 So it feels a lot less of a choice for men and still a lot more of a cultural imperative.

00:19:48.220 In terms of relationships, you know, the 20-something men I work with want relationships more than we give them credit for.

00:19:57.360 But they're not really sure if they have what 20-something women want, that they see images in the media about 20-something superwomen who have it all, want it all, are doing it all.

00:20:09.780 And they feel like, well, I'm not there yet.

00:20:12.360 I'm not sure that I'm going to be able to measure up.

00:20:17.460 And I hear about that a lot in my office.

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00:21:41.560 What do you tell those guys who have that sort of, I guess, status anxiety is, I guess it's what you'd call it?

00:21:48.900 You know, I do some reality testing or reality checking with them around that those are images in the media.

00:21:55.340 You know, that those are images of young women who want it all or have it all or who are doing it all.

00:22:04.100 But, you know, most of the young women that I work with are also like the young men that I work with.

00:22:08.520 They're struggling, and they would be – they don't expect their partner to have it all figured out.

00:22:14.520 They want someone, you know, they can sort of share life's burdens with.

00:22:18.700 They don't necessarily need someone to rescue them from all of life's burdens or to be some kind of superhero.

00:22:24.580 But it's interesting – actually, I got an email from a really thoughtful male graduate student a few weeks ago,

00:22:34.240 and he said, I just have a hard time believing that some 20-something woman out there wants to partner with somebody 0.52

00:22:40.940 who's, you know, working for a pittance and, you know, may not have a good job for five years.

00:22:45.860 And, you know, I felt sad reading that email that that's what he thought, that that's what he had been led to believe,

00:22:53.600 because I think there are a lot of women out there who would recognize, hey, a smart, good person like this 20-something man,

00:23:01.280 that is someone I'd want to be with, but he's been led to believe that he's not.

00:23:06.260 That is really sad.

00:23:07.320 And let's talk about one of my favorite lines in the book, and it actually inspired a post that we wrote on the website.

00:23:15.300 I saw that. Thank you.

00:23:16.780 Yeah, it was really – it was well-received.

00:23:21.460 But anyways, you were talking to a client named Sam, and I guess Sam's about 28,

00:23:26.520 and he still lives in the basement of his parents' home and doesn't really have a career.

00:23:30.620 And he comes to you, and he says, the older I get, the less I feel like a man.

00:23:35.440 And then you respond, I'm not sure you're giving yourself much to feel like a man about.

00:23:42.720 And it seems like Sam – I think a lot of young men, but also young women too,

00:23:47.900 like they feel like – as soon as they feel like a man or an adult,

00:23:51.840 then they would magically start doing adult things.

00:23:56.260 But your response to him kind of suggests that, no, it's by doing adult things or man things,

00:24:01.900 whatever you want to say, that's when we begin to feel like an adult.

00:24:04.800 And do you think – do you see that a lot in a lot of your clients?

00:24:07.540 They have this expectation that they need to feel like an adult

00:24:10.360 before they can actually start doing those grown-up things.

00:24:14.260 Absolutely. And they have it backwards.

00:24:16.820 So they feel like, I need to feel like a man before I can take on a real job or a real relationship.

00:24:21.720 And study after study shows that where that confidence that a lot of 20-something men kind of confess,

00:24:32.780 they don't have any confidence, I don't feel competent, I don't feel strong, I don't feel like a man,

00:24:37.400 that that comes from experience and that you kind of have to get out there and practice at or work toward being an adult,

00:24:49.380 just like you have to practice at or work toward feeling or being anything.

00:24:54.580 So, you know, the longer you stand on the sidelines, especially as you get older

00:25:01.420 and start to feel very self-conscious about being there,

00:25:04.580 the less capable you feel of getting back in the game.

00:25:08.460 And that, you know, there's a research phrase of that getting along and getting ahead

00:25:15.680 is what leads to that sort of confident, grown-up feeling that people come to in their 20s or 30s

00:25:22.960 if they engage with adult roles.

00:25:26.100 So if you want to feel like a man, you've got to act like a man or at least practice being a man.

00:25:30.880 Yeah, I mean, whatever that is to you, you know.

00:25:33.660 And so it's, but I mean, it usually means go out and get the best job you can.

00:25:38.480 I mean, most of us need to work, so get out there and engage with it

00:25:43.100 and go out there and, you know, engage with relationships in some kind of meaningful way.

00:25:48.740 It doesn't mean you have to get married tomorrow,

00:25:50.880 but it probably means that you need to maybe go to the next step

00:25:57.660 in terms of developing some relationship skills that might lead to something.

00:26:02.680 Okay. So let's, so you talk a lot about the book,

00:26:06.440 talking about, you know, the problems and anxieties of your clients,

00:26:11.100 but then you also devote a lot of time to giving suggestions

00:26:14.680 on what 20-somethings can do in different aspects of their life

00:26:18.340 to make the most of that time.

00:26:20.380 So in terms of career, one thing that really stuck out to me,

00:26:23.820 because I know this is really pressing on a lot of 20-somethings right now,

00:26:26.220 is like, what are they going to do for the rest of their life?

00:26:28.920 You talk about the importance of developing identity capital.

00:26:32.680 Um, I've, what is that?

00:26:34.360 I mean, I've heard of social capital, emotional capital, capital, money capital.

00:26:39.760 What is it? What is identity capital?

00:26:42.300 It's identity capital.

00:26:44.880 You know, I like, it's not my term.

00:26:47.040 It's from a sociologist who coined that term,

00:26:50.260 but most 20-somethings have never heard that term

00:26:52.800 unless they're getting a PhD in sociology.

00:26:54.660 And I thought they ought to hear it

00:26:56.100 because I think it's a good replacement for a phrase they have heard,

00:26:59.320 and that's identity crisis.

00:27:01.160 And so I've had so many clients come in and say,

00:27:03.680 I'm having an identity crisis.

00:27:04.940 I don't know what I should do with my life.

00:27:07.000 And they imagine that they should come into my office

00:27:09.840 and think that through for months or years,

00:27:13.140 and then we're going to come up with the answer.

00:27:15.620 And, um, I guess, technically speaking,

00:27:18.760 that could be a good business model for me,

00:27:20.640 but I don't think I would actually be helping anyone.

00:27:23.040 So, you know, this is not the way that careers happen anymore.

00:27:26.980 Like, that's actually the identity crisis models from the 50s

00:27:30.840 when people really did kind of pick one thing and do that forever.

00:27:35.460 But that's not quite how it works anymore.

00:27:37.600 So I really encourage 20-somethings not to put all this pressure

00:27:42.160 on making the choice or a choice,

00:27:44.960 but to do things that create choices

00:27:48.140 and to really flip this feeling that their 20s are about closing doors

00:27:53.440 and, you know, narrowing life

00:27:56.720 to imagining your 20s as being about opening doors

00:28:00.160 and widening your perspective.

00:28:02.500 So identity capital is just the idea that

00:28:06.360 who knows what you're going to do the rest of your life,

00:28:09.120 but if what you're doing right now

00:28:10.800 says something good about who you are

00:28:14.580 or it's giving you valuable skills or connections

00:28:17.540 or a degree or a leg up,

00:28:20.960 then that's capital.

00:28:22.200 That is an investment

00:28:23.440 and having something else next that's going to be good.

00:28:26.960 So one good piece of capital

00:28:28.460 leads to another good piece to another good piece.

00:28:30.580 It really just means, you know,

00:28:32.880 life is, adult career is going to be a series of moves

00:28:36.940 and you want them to be strategic

00:28:39.260 and to lead to more and more.

00:28:42.120 My first piece of identity capital out of college

00:28:45.200 was being an Outward Bound instructor.

00:28:47.020 So it doesn't have to,

00:28:48.340 I don't mean you have to go work at a bank.

00:28:50.600 I just mean you're better off doing something

00:28:53.900 that other people recognize or respect

00:28:57.180 or that says something about you

00:28:59.580 that helps you get to the next step

00:29:02.060 than something that doesn't,

00:29:04.260 that's more avoidant

00:29:05.660 and not connected with where you might like to go next.

00:29:08.460 You know, trying to stay away

00:29:10.200 from kind of the placeholder jobs

00:29:11.880 that people perceive,

00:29:13.960 well, if I do kind of a nothing job,

00:29:16.480 I haven't chosen anything.

00:29:18.300 Yeah.

00:29:19.560 But not choosing is a choice.

00:29:22.840 I mean, you're choosing not to be

00:29:25.240 doing something with capital

00:29:27.160 that might lead to more choices.

00:29:28.700 So ways you can develop identity capital,

00:29:31.480 college, getting an advanced degree,

00:29:34.320 volunteering like you did,

00:29:36.080 Outward Bound,

00:29:36.660 maybe it could be Peace Corps

00:29:37.720 or Teach for America.

00:29:40.420 Sure.

00:29:41.080 Starting a business.

00:29:42.780 Absolutely.

00:29:43.840 You know, it's really,

00:29:45.680 you think about it as your collection

00:29:47.240 of personal assets.

00:29:48.400 So anything that you're doing

00:29:50.220 that kind of adds to that collection

00:29:52.600 of not just to what I can put on my resume,

00:29:54.680 but a lot of times for a career,

00:29:56.320 that's what it comes down to.

00:29:58.060 But just, you know,

00:29:59.000 that adds to what you are

00:30:00.780 and what you're doing with your 20s.

00:30:02.400 If you have many clients

00:30:04.660 who know that their jobs

00:30:06.620 are not adding anything,

00:30:08.300 they're not adding value to their lives.

00:30:10.280 And if you know that about your job,

00:30:12.460 you should not spend much time doing that.

00:30:14.840 So what about relationships?

00:30:16.540 Anything that a 20-something can do

00:30:18.860 to give them a better chance

00:30:20.580 of having a happy

00:30:21.700 and fulfilling relationship

00:30:23.000 later on in life or now?

00:30:25.700 Sure.

00:30:27.300 Well, I mean,

00:30:28.040 I think one of the milestones

00:30:30.540 that has most shifted

00:30:32.100 is marriage or partnership

00:30:33.840 and that people,

00:30:35.500 I think the average age of marriage

00:30:37.220 is now about 27,

00:30:39.300 whereas in the early 70s,

00:30:41.500 it was 21, believe it or not.

00:30:44.080 And for your more educated crowd,

00:30:46.600 it's even later.

00:30:47.680 I got married in my early 30s,

00:30:49.380 for example.

00:30:49.980 But as a mentor of mine used to say,

00:30:54.180 the best time to work on your marriage

00:30:55.800 is before you have one.

00:30:57.400 And so that means that potentially

00:31:01.000 if you use your 20s

00:31:04.240 by having relationships

00:31:05.540 that are conscious and intentional

00:31:07.740 where you're really exploring relationships

00:31:10.140 as much as you would explore a career,

00:31:12.900 like I'm going to try out

00:31:13.800 different kinds of careers,

00:31:15.440 I'm going to try out

00:31:16.180 different kinds of relationships,

00:31:18.020 different kinds of people,

00:31:19.120 and to see what fits.

00:31:21.420 That, I mean,

00:31:22.100 everybody who wants to partner

00:31:24.360 wants to partner well.

00:31:26.120 And many people say,

00:31:27.460 well, I want to partner better

00:31:28.460 than my parents did

00:31:29.620 or I want to be sure

00:31:30.620 that I don't, you know,

00:31:31.980 I don't want to wind up divorced.

00:31:34.360 And doing,

00:31:35.360 getting married later

00:31:36.660 in and of itself

00:31:39.200 doesn't increase your chances of success.

00:31:42.680 It depends on whether you used

00:31:44.880 that time before

00:31:46.020 in some way that

00:31:47.580 kind of improves

00:31:49.840 what you know about relationships

00:31:51.560 and what you know

00:31:52.300 about what kind of person

00:31:53.260 is right for you.

00:31:55.080 So, you know,

00:31:56.740 I tell 20-somethings I work with 0.99

00:31:58.420 that this is the time

00:31:59.520 to explore

00:32:00.300 not just your sexuality,

00:32:02.800 that's easy,

00:32:03.700 but the more complicated part

00:32:06.180 is being intentional

00:32:07.960 about what you think

00:32:09.300 you want in a partner

00:32:10.460 and to really think through

00:32:13.080 what it'll mean for you

00:32:14.340 to partner well.

00:32:16.380 So, use dating

00:32:16.940 as sort of a practice,

00:32:19.120 I mean,

00:32:19.440 a practice run for marriage,

00:32:21.560 I guess,

00:32:22.280 in a bit,

00:32:22.800 in a way.

00:32:24.380 Um,

00:32:25.240 I mean,

00:32:26.160 I think,

00:32:27.480 I mean,

00:32:29.400 I wouldn't give

00:32:29.900 a hard and fast rule

00:32:31.120 of it,

00:32:31.540 you know,

00:32:31.760 you're not allowed

00:32:32.240 to date anyone

00:32:33.000 who isn't marriage material.

00:32:34.900 You know,

00:32:35.180 I'm sure people

00:32:35.860 would love to say

00:32:36.780 that's what I'm saying,

00:32:37.800 but,

00:32:38.320 um,

00:32:38.860 but I think there,

00:32:40.120 you know,

00:32:40.620 obviously at some point

00:32:42.100 you have to shift

00:32:43.120 from this is fine,

00:32:44.740 this is fun,

00:32:46.280 to what kind of person

00:32:48.800 is actually going

00:32:50.080 to be a good partner

00:32:51.000 for me.

00:32:52.260 Um,

00:32:52.500 and then that has to be,

00:32:53.840 or it's,

00:32:54.360 it's better if that's

00:32:55.420 a very conscious,

00:32:57.080 intentional,

00:32:58.680 um,

00:32:59.800 process.

00:33:00.300 to really think

00:33:01.920 through what is it

00:33:03.220 I want from a partner,

00:33:04.460 not,

00:33:05.100 oh,

00:33:05.200 this person looks good

00:33:06.380 and everybody around

00:33:07.380 me is getting married.

00:33:08.620 Yeah.

00:33:09.860 Which happens.

00:33:11.100 It does happen.

00:33:12.160 I,

00:33:12.360 I,

00:33:12.540 I've heard of that

00:33:13.240 quite a bit.

00:33:14.440 Um,

00:33:15.320 so,

00:33:16.100 how about this?

00:33:17.360 Whenever you've written

00:33:18.080 about,

00:33:18.400 like,

00:33:18.520 you know,

00:33:18.720 the importance

00:33:19.120 of the 20-something

00:33:20.100 time of your life,

00:33:21.760 um,

00:33:22.020 we always have,

00:33:22.740 like,

00:33:22.860 guys in their 30s

00:33:23.940 or their 40s,

00:33:24.840 like,

00:33:25.260 read this thing,

00:33:25.920 oh,

00:33:26.040 this is great,

00:33:27.100 but I wasted my 20s.

00:33:28.500 Am I doomed

00:33:30.080 to a life of mediocrity?

00:33:31.800 Um,

00:33:32.040 what do you say

00:33:32.480 to those guys?

00:33:32.920 Are they doomed

00:33:33.420 or is there,

00:33:33.940 like,

00:33:34.020 hope for making improvements

00:33:35.400 even later on in life?

00:33:37.320 Right.

00:33:37.700 No,

00:33:37.900 of course they're not doomed.

00:33:39.180 I mean,

00:33:39.600 I,

00:33:40.280 you know,

00:33:40.620 I do have to say,

00:33:41.580 though,

00:33:41.740 I wrote this book

00:33:43.260 for 20-somethings

00:33:45.060 partly on behalf

00:33:46.880 of the clients

00:33:48.480 I've had,

00:33:49.060 the students I've had

00:33:50.200 who,

00:33:51.300 you know,

00:33:51.900 have some complicated

00:33:52.720 feelings about their 20s

00:33:54.380 and that it's hard

00:33:56.140 to sit across

00:33:56.760 from a struggling

00:33:57.360 20-something.

00:33:58.380 It's a lot harder

00:33:59.500 to sit across

00:34:00.200 from a struggling

00:34:00.800 30-something

00:34:01.500 because that's

00:34:02.660 a harder place to be.

00:34:04.100 So,

00:34:04.860 um,

00:34:05.220 it's really because

00:34:06.160 of the people

00:34:07.880 in their 30s

00:34:08.560 who are struggling

00:34:09.120 that I said,

00:34:10.420 I want to write a book

00:34:11.180 for 20-somethings

00:34:12.360 because they're

00:34:13.220 just at the very

00:34:15.060 start of adulthood

00:34:15.860 can have a lot

00:34:17.720 more impact

00:34:18.460 on their lives.

00:34:19.880 Um,

00:34:20.360 a mentor of mine

00:34:21.280 used to say

00:34:21.820 working with 20-somethings

00:34:23.520 like working with planes

00:34:24.800 just as they're

00:34:25.560 taking off.

00:34:26.860 And,

00:34:27.460 you know,

00:34:27.800 a small change

00:34:29.460 in course

00:34:30.160 makes a big difference

00:34:31.480 in where you land,

00:34:32.660 you know,

00:34:32.940 where you end up

00:34:33.580 down the line.

00:34:34.780 I mean,

00:34:34.980 obviously,

00:34:35.720 as a 30-something,

00:34:37.140 you probably

00:34:37.800 haven't landed yet.

00:34:39.040 You're,

00:34:39.260 you're on your way

00:34:40.860 somewhere.

00:34:41.520 You may have to

00:34:42.400 turn the wheel

00:34:43.620 a bit more sharply

00:34:44.460 to change course,

00:34:46.040 but,

00:34:46.340 you know,

00:34:46.500 all any of us

00:34:47.240 can do

00:34:47.860 is start where we are.

00:34:49.700 My philosophy

00:34:50.260 is certainly not

00:34:51.200 down with 20-somethings.

00:34:53.060 Um,

00:34:53.520 I mean,

00:34:54.160 down with 30-somethings,

00:34:55.500 but it's just,

00:34:56.500 uh,

00:34:57.620 you know,

00:34:58.800 I specialize

00:35:00.040 in 20-somethings

00:35:01.160 because I think

00:35:01.820 so many people said,

00:35:02.940 why didn't I hear

00:35:03.800 all this sooner?

00:35:04.680 Yeah.

00:35:05.400 So that's what I'm doing.

00:35:06.660 Um,

00:35:06.980 but of course,

00:35:07.560 all the same advice

00:35:08.700 applies,

00:35:09.460 because it's really

00:35:09.960 about the research

00:35:10.740 of adult development.

00:35:11.840 It all still applies

00:35:12.880 to 30-somethings.

00:35:14.540 Um,

00:35:14.780 and we all can just

00:35:15.840 start from where we are.

00:35:16.940 I wish I had started

00:35:18.180 writing earlier

00:35:19.160 in my life

00:35:19.800 than I did,

00:35:20.420 and my first book

00:35:21.220 came out

00:35:21.620 when I was 42,

00:35:22.420 but,

00:35:23.620 oh well,

00:35:24.160 I mean,

00:35:24.460 better late than never.

00:35:25.740 Exactly.

00:35:26.860 Oh,

00:35:27.100 Dr. J,

00:35:27.480 any final words

00:35:28.640 of wisdom

00:35:29.020 to our 20-something

00:35:30.340 listeners?

00:35:33.140 Um,

00:35:33.580 I guess my final words

00:35:35.320 of wisdom

00:35:35.780 would be not to worry

00:35:36.960 about what other people

00:35:38.160 are doing

00:35:38.660 or about what other people,

00:35:39.940 you know,

00:35:40.820 say that you should be doing

00:35:42.280 or that you should want,

00:35:43.140 even me.

00:35:44.080 Um,

00:35:44.900 that living an intentional life

00:35:46.760 is about being honest

00:35:47.880 with yourself

00:35:48.620 about what life

00:35:50.280 you think you might like

00:35:51.760 in 10 years

00:35:52.520 and simply getting going

00:35:53.960 on that.

00:35:54.860 And it's actually

00:35:55.860 a good feeling

00:35:56.680 once you do it.

00:35:57.900 Well,

00:35:58.300 very good.

00:35:58.740 Well,

00:35:58.840 Dr. J,

00:35:59.220 thank you so much

00:35:59.820 for taking the time

00:36:00.560 to talking with us.

00:36:01.300 This is a fascinating discussion.

00:36:02.580 I'm sure a lot of

00:36:03.380 our listeners

00:36:04.200 are going to get

00:36:04.520 something out of this.

00:36:05.360 So thank you again.

00:36:06.280 Thanks, Brett.

00:36:06.680 My pleasure.

00:36:08.080 Our guest today

00:36:08.680 was Dr. Meg Jay.

00:36:09.720 Dr. J is a clinical psychologist

00:36:11.320 and the author of the book

00:36:12.800 The Defining Decade,

00:36:14.340 Why Your 20s Matter

00:36:15.500 and How to Make the Most of Them Now.

00:36:17.780 And you can find that book

00:36:18.720 at Amazon.com

00:36:20.040 and bookstores everywhere.

00:36:22.200 Well,

00:36:22.640 that wraps up another edition

00:36:23.740 of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:36:25.320 For more manly tips and advice,

00:36:26.880 make sure to check out

00:36:27.660 the Art of Manliness website

00:36:28.900 at artofmanliness.com.

00:36:30.340 And if you enjoy this show

00:36:31.940 and you get something out of it,

00:36:33.340 I'd really appreciate it

00:36:34.520 if you could go on iTunes,

00:36:36.460 Stitcher,

00:36:36.900 whatever it is you use

00:36:38.500 to listen to the podcast

00:36:39.280 and give us a rating.

00:36:41.080 It would help us out a lot

00:36:42.540 in getting the word out

00:36:44.060 about the podcast

00:36:44.640 and letting other listeners find it.

00:36:46.860 So I'd really appreciate that.

00:36:48.440 Until next time,

00:36:49.140 this is Brett McKay

00:36:50.080 telling you to stay manly.

The Art of Manliness - April 04, 2014

Episode #51： The Defining Decade With Dr. Meg Jay

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