The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025


Episode #54： The Life Of John L. Sullivan With Christopher Klein


Episode Stats

Misogynist Sentences

1

Hate Speech Sentences

7


Summary

A new biography of John L. Sullivan, the last bareknuckle champion in the history of boxing, was written by Christopher Klein. It's called "Strong Boy: The Life and Times of John Sullivan, America's First Sports Hero."


Transcript

00:00:00.000 This episode of the Art of Manliness podcast is brought to you by Online Great Books.
00:00:03.120 If you've made a goal for yourself to read the great books of the Western world,
00:00:06.360 but have had trouble following through, check out Online Great Books.
00:00:09.020 It's an online platform. You sign up.
00:00:10.760 They're going to mail you a physical copy of the book that you're assigned that month.
00:00:13.540 They're going to provide you a reading schedule and send you reminders on how you should read
00:00:17.060 so you can keep pace.
00:00:18.060 Then at the end of the month, you're going to have a online video seminar
00:00:20.860 where you can discuss the book with other people in your group.
00:00:23.340 So if you want to learn more about this, go to OnlineGreatBooks.com.
00:00:26.500 And when you're ready to sign up, use code AOM at checkout.
00:00:29.160 You save 25% on your first three months.
00:00:31.580 Again, OnlineGreatBooks.com, code AOM at checkout.
00:00:34.360 Save 25% on your first three months.
00:00:51.600 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:00:56.580 Well, since the beginning of the Art of Manliness,
00:00:59.160 I've had at the top of the website, as a part of my header,
00:01:03.500 and he's also become basically an unofficial logo and mascot of the Art of Manliness,
00:01:08.000 it's a bare-chested, mustached, bare-knuckle boxer.
00:01:12.020 But that's not just any random 19th century bare-knuckle boxer.
00:01:15.360 That is John L. Sullivan, one of the greatest boxers in the history of the sport.
00:01:20.200 He was the last bare-knuckle champion,
00:01:21.980 and he was also a gloved boxing champion.
00:01:26.500 He only lost once in his storied career.
00:01:30.260 And besides being a fantastic boxer,
00:01:32.820 the guy was just larger than life,
00:01:35.180 just a character, just full of, like, virile masculine energy.
00:01:40.020 And at one time, during the 19th century,
00:01:43.140 he was considered, like, the world's most famous person.
00:01:45.640 He was America's first sports hero.
00:01:48.840 The interesting thing about John L. Sullivan,
00:01:50.540 despite his influence on the sport of boxing,
00:01:52.800 despite his celebrity in the 19th century,
00:01:55.980 there's really not that much out there about the man and his life.
00:02:00.020 So I was really excited to learn about a new biography
00:02:02.740 that just came out about John L. Sullivan.
00:02:05.100 It's written by Christopher Klein.
00:02:06.880 The name of the book is Strong Boy,
00:02:09.420 The Life and Times of John L. Sullivan, America's First Sports Hero.
00:02:13.700 We're going to talk to him about his book.
00:02:15.480 We're going to talk to him about the life of John L. Sullivan.
00:02:17.340 We're going to talk about his storied boxing career,
00:02:19.920 but we're also going to talk about his deep personal flaws.
00:02:24.260 The man was a very complicated, complex figure.
00:02:29.100 We're going to talk about his personal flaws,
00:02:31.020 his eventual triumph over those flaws,
00:02:33.140 and we're going to talk about John L. Sullivan's lasting legacy
00:02:36.840 on the sport of boxing,
00:02:38.340 but as well as masculinity and manhood in America today.
00:02:42.580 Really interesting podcast, so stay tuned.
00:02:47.340 All right, Chris, welcome to the show.
00:02:50.420 Thanks, Brett.
00:02:51.220 Okay, so I'm really excited about your book,
00:02:54.700 John L. Sullivan, The Strong Boy of Boston,
00:02:57.600 because he's the guy that,
00:02:59.800 it's sort of like the unofficial mascot of the art of manliness.
00:03:02.760 He's that old-time boxer at the top of our website,
00:03:05.260 and as I wanted to learn more about him and his life,
00:03:10.160 I was surprised how very little there is out there
00:03:14.100 about John L. Sullivan and his career and his life,
00:03:17.440 and I'm surprised because he was a huge celebrity,
00:03:20.080 and he really changed the sport of boxing.
00:03:23.520 Why do you think there's so little about John L. Sullivan,
00:03:26.040 and why did you decide to write his biography?
00:03:29.620 Well, the last major biography of Sullivan
00:03:31.860 was done about 25 years ago,
00:03:34.480 and I think part of the reason one hasn't been done since then
00:03:37.680 is that boxing is becoming a bit of a dying sport.
00:03:42.700 It seems to live on in movies and books
00:03:45.740 more so than actually in the ring,
00:03:48.020 and I think that generation of people
00:03:50.160 who heard stories about Sullivan from their parents
00:03:53.060 have passed along as well in the last quarter century.
00:03:57.140 But I researched Sullivan for my last book,
00:04:00.820 and what really drew me into him
00:04:02.560 was being a Boston guy.
00:04:05.240 It was his Boston connection.
00:04:06.540 He was born in the South End of Boston,
00:04:08.500 and his nickname was the Boston Strong Boy.
00:04:11.780 He was an Irish-American hero,
00:04:13.640 and being an Irish-American, that intrigued me.
00:04:16.120 And just finding out what a colorful figure he was,
00:04:19.060 I thought, you know, what a fun subject
00:04:21.340 it would be for a biography.
00:04:23.960 And the more I researched about Sullivan,
00:04:27.640 the more I learned just what an important figure he is
00:04:30.520 in the American culture.
00:04:31.900 You know, he is the first sports superstar.
00:04:34.300 He's the first Irish-American icon.
00:04:37.360 And, you know, we may think of him
00:04:39.140 as this sepia-tone relic,
00:04:40.940 but really, he's very much a trailblazer
00:04:43.800 for the modern age in which we live.
00:04:45.940 So, you know, just seeing how important he is
00:04:48.980 for how we live our lives
00:04:50.860 and how sports is such a central pillar
00:04:53.840 of American culture today,
00:04:55.200 I really thought it was time
00:04:56.760 to freshen up the story.
00:04:59.080 And, of course, you know,
00:05:00.300 in the last couple of decades
00:05:01.980 with the rise of the Internet,
00:05:03.240 we now have these great tools at our hands
00:05:05.460 to be able to go back.
00:05:06.780 And even though a lot hasn't been written
00:05:08.940 about Sullivan maybe in the last 20 years,
00:05:10.700 there are tens of thousands of articles
00:05:14.360 that were written about him during his lifetime,
00:05:16.100 and now, you know, you can sort of research that
00:05:18.560 right from your desktop
00:05:20.700 going through all these old-time newspapers.
00:05:23.160 So, you know, it's a benefit that we have
00:05:26.120 in terms of doing the research
00:05:27.420 now that you couldn't 20, 25 years ago.
00:05:30.640 Yeah, that was the thing that struck me
00:05:32.100 about the book as I was reading about his life.
00:05:35.700 You know, he was a larger-than-life character,
00:05:38.200 very colorful, complicated,
00:05:41.480 but his story is sort of like,
00:05:44.240 it was so, it was intertwined with, like,
00:05:46.160 the rise of modern America.
00:05:48.500 Yeah.
00:05:49.100 With the rise of sports that, you know,
00:05:50.860 he was living in a time when baseball
00:05:52.700 and football and boxing were becoming
00:05:54.660 national pastimes in America.
00:05:57.120 He was living in a time when mass consumerism
00:05:59.960 was coming alive,
00:06:01.000 and he took advantage of that.
00:06:02.660 He was around when the mass press,
00:06:05.180 as we know it today, came around.
00:06:07.880 And so it was just interesting to see
00:06:09.180 how John L. Sullivan intersect,
00:06:10.780 his life intersected with all these different aspects
00:06:13.160 of American history at the same time.
00:06:16.620 Yeah, exactly.
00:06:18.020 And I'm not really much of a boxing fan, per se.
00:06:21.320 And, you know, I wasn't really interested
00:06:23.400 in writing a boxing book.
00:06:25.480 But what I was interested in doing
00:06:28.200 was using Sullivan as sort of,
00:06:29.880 you know, a linchpin to talk about
00:06:33.340 these different movements that were occurring
00:06:38.000 in American history,
00:06:38.920 when you talk about the rise of celebrity culture
00:06:41.060 and the immigration into America
00:06:42.600 and sort of the gilded age
00:06:44.780 with the wealthy and the downtrodden
00:06:46.460 and, you know, how that might reflect
00:06:48.220 on current times as well.
00:06:50.180 So, you know, it was a great way
00:06:52.400 to sort of get in and delve into
00:06:54.200 all these different aspects of American history
00:06:56.400 and American culture that, you know,
00:06:57.920 still impact us today.
00:06:59.080 So let's talk about, you know,
00:07:01.480 you didn't set out to write a boxing book,
00:07:02.940 but boxing looms large in the story.
00:07:07.220 I guess what I got from your book
00:07:08.880 when I was reading it,
00:07:09.480 there was boxing before John L. Sullivan
00:07:11.340 and there was boxing after John L. Sullivan.
00:07:13.860 Can you talk about the state of boxing
00:07:15.420 when John L. Sullivan came to,
00:07:17.640 I guess, came to power?
00:07:18.800 What was it like before?
00:07:20.500 And what was it like after he became a celebrity?
00:07:24.080 So before Sullivan,
00:07:25.900 boxing is completely different
00:07:27.320 than what we think of today
00:07:28.320 in terms of the modern sport.
00:07:29.700 It's really a bare-knuckled affair.
00:07:31.820 So these guys were fighting
00:07:32.920 under what was called
00:07:34.180 the London Prize Ring rules.
00:07:36.540 So you would fight without gloves
00:07:38.920 and wrestling moves were legal.
00:07:41.920 You could certainly get in
00:07:43.720 a good amount of eye-gouging
00:07:46.620 and hair-pulling.
00:07:48.100 And so when you see these guys
00:07:49.520 with these flowing handlebar mustaches,
00:07:51.560 they didn't wear those into the ring
00:07:53.140 and they cut their hair really closely too
00:07:56.180 because your opponent could very well
00:07:57.960 just grab a hold of your hair
00:07:59.540 and get in a couple of good shots
00:08:01.460 if you were down on the ground.
00:08:03.480 And rounds would last
00:08:04.480 as long as one of the fighters
00:08:06.240 was on his feet.
00:08:07.400 Once he hit the ground,
00:08:08.320 that would be the end of a round.
00:08:10.020 So rounds could last three seconds,
00:08:11.760 they could last 35 minutes,
00:08:13.900 and fights would go on
00:08:15.380 until literally one fighter
00:08:16.900 just couldn't go on any further.
00:08:18.660 And it was such a brutal affair
00:08:20.980 and sort of awash and corruption
00:08:23.480 and gambling
00:08:24.140 that it was outlawed
00:08:25.520 just about everywhere in America.
00:08:27.900 So whenever these bare-knuckled fights
00:08:30.860 would take place,
00:08:31.780 it was very much a cat-and-a-mouse game
00:08:33.500 between the boxers and the fans
00:08:35.140 and the authorities
00:08:36.060 to try to elude any sort of interference
00:08:38.780 from the authorities.
00:08:40.240 So these fights would take place
00:08:42.340 in the back rooms of saloons,
00:08:44.100 or they might find secluded islands,
00:08:47.580 the backwoods,
00:08:48.860 or places that these fighters
00:08:50.820 would commonly stage their prize fights.
00:08:54.940 And when Sullivan comes along,
00:08:57.000 he really insists on fighting
00:08:59.100 with the new rules
00:09:00.420 that were being implemented then
00:09:02.620 called the Marquis of Queensberry Rules.
00:09:04.740 And these are the more civilized rules of boxing,
00:09:07.520 the ones that we're more familiar with today,
00:09:09.360 where rounds are timed
00:09:10.720 to last three minutes.
00:09:12.900 The fights would be done with gloves.
00:09:16.420 There would be no wrestling
00:09:17.460 that would be involved.
00:09:18.700 So it was really, you know,
00:09:21.500 really a punching contest
00:09:24.640 between the two fighters.
00:09:26.720 And even though we think of Sullivan
00:09:28.260 as being this bare-knuckled boxer,
00:09:29.940 he only fights three times,
00:09:31.420 three championship fights
00:09:32.440 with his bare fists.
00:09:33.820 And by insisting on fighting
00:09:35.540 his opponents with gloves
00:09:36.840 and with the Marquis of Queensberry Rules,
00:09:38.640 by the end of his career,
00:09:39.860 he fights in the first championship fight
00:09:43.980 that was done with gloves.
00:09:45.180 And ever since then,
00:09:46.220 every fight has been done
00:09:47.620 with gloves on the hands.
00:09:49.980 So, you know,
00:09:51.280 he is not necessarily
00:09:53.080 just the last of the bare-knuckle boxers.
00:09:55.140 He's the first real modern boxing champion
00:09:57.380 that we have.
00:09:58.000 And he did a lot
00:09:59.500 to legitimize the sport,
00:10:00.900 it seems.
00:10:02.620 Yeah, yeah.
00:10:03.320 And because by insisting
00:10:05.140 on fighting those gloves
00:10:06.120 it made it more socially acceptable
00:10:07.860 and that form of boxing
00:10:09.460 was legal as well.
00:10:12.020 So by the end of his career,
00:10:13.240 they no longer have to,
00:10:14.520 you know,
00:10:15.140 try to find some place
00:10:16.200 in the backwoods
00:10:16.860 to have their championship fight.
00:10:18.020 His last fight that he has
00:10:19.560 is in a 10,000-seat
00:10:21.540 electrically lit arena
00:10:22.940 in downtown New Orleans
00:10:24.700 where the media is there
00:10:26.880 with the telegraphs,
00:10:28.040 you know,
00:10:28.300 at ringside
00:10:29.060 sending results
00:10:29.840 throughout the country.
00:10:32.480 And, you know,
00:10:33.800 it's completely out in the open
00:10:35.600 and legal,
00:10:36.280 very much similar
00:10:37.160 to what you would find
00:10:38.440 in Las Vegas,
00:10:39.260 you know,
00:10:39.540 today for a big prize fight.
00:10:41.400 What I found,
00:10:41.760 one of the things
00:10:42.620 I found interesting
00:10:43.220 was like boxing,
00:10:45.440 it was sort of like a,
00:10:46.000 boxing was sort of like
00:10:47.080 in a legal limbo
00:10:48.220 at the time.
00:10:48.880 Like,
00:10:49.160 it was okay for exhibitions.
00:10:50.440 Like,
00:10:50.700 you can do exhibitions
00:10:51.620 to display the manly art,
00:10:53.100 right?
00:10:53.840 But if it,
00:10:55.180 if there was like,
00:10:56.380 it was known
00:10:56.780 that there was money
00:10:57.360 being bad
00:10:57.920 or if it got too violent,
00:10:59.000 the police would,
00:10:59.700 okay, no,
00:11:00.160 stop it.
00:11:00.560 This is not,
00:11:01.140 no longer an exhibition.
00:11:02.620 We're going to put a stop to this.
00:11:04.960 Yeah,
00:11:05.340 it was sort of in that limbo
00:11:06.460 with a lot of different
00:11:07.680 aspects of morality
00:11:09.540 during the Gilded Age,
00:11:10.920 you know,
00:11:11.180 where it was supposed
00:11:13.080 to be a prim and proper
00:11:14.040 Victorian society,
00:11:15.440 but certainly,
00:11:16.620 you know,
00:11:17.520 corruption,
00:11:18.420 gambling,
00:11:19.160 prostitution
00:11:19.700 were all rampant behaviors
00:11:21.160 and boxing was sort of
00:11:22.940 in that limbo as well
00:11:24.220 where,
00:11:24.840 yeah,
00:11:26.160 you could stage
00:11:27.360 these four-round exhibitions
00:11:29.020 against another opponent
00:11:30.640 under the guise
00:11:32.180 of being these
00:11:32.760 scientific exhibitions,
00:11:34.200 but everyone knew
00:11:35.300 that these were prize fights.
00:11:36.600 You know,
00:11:36.840 money was being gambled on it,
00:11:38.240 the fans were coming
00:11:38.960 to see someone
00:11:39.500 get knocked out,
00:11:40.380 and whether
00:11:42.180 that would happen
00:11:43.200 or not
00:11:43.580 often depended on
00:11:44.960 whoever was in,
00:11:48.060 you know,
00:11:48.520 sitting in City Hall
00:11:49.480 and in charge of
00:11:50.620 the police
00:11:52.780 in terms of
00:11:53.440 how quickly
00:11:54.040 they would enter the ring
00:11:55.080 to stop a fight.
00:11:56.060 You know,
00:11:56.200 they might get in there
00:11:57.600 at the first sign
00:11:58.280 of someone taking a big hit
00:12:00.000 or they just might wait
00:12:01.080 until someone was knocked out.
00:12:02.280 So you really never knew
00:12:03.800 what was going to happen
00:12:04.620 when you showed up
00:12:05.300 at one of these
00:12:05.740 boxing exhibitions.
00:12:07.480 Not only what was going
00:12:08.360 to happen between
00:12:08.960 the two fighters
00:12:09.680 or whether it was
00:12:10.740 whether the police
00:12:11.860 might get into the ring
00:12:13.140 at any moment
00:12:13.620 to stop the fight too.
00:12:16.000 Okay,
00:12:16.120 so John L. Sullivan,
00:12:17.000 he was a formidable fighter.
00:12:19.040 I think he only lost once,
00:12:21.000 right?
00:12:21.600 Like one...
00:12:22.920 Yeah,
00:12:23.180 the one big fight
00:12:23.880 was the last,
00:12:24.840 his last championship fight
00:12:26.180 against Corbett
00:12:26.780 was really the only defeat
00:12:28.540 that he really ever suffered
00:12:29.640 in the ring.
00:12:30.460 And he,
00:12:31.600 like so he had over
00:12:33.360 like 200 victories
00:12:34.340 in a 10-year stretch.
00:12:35.460 I mean,
00:12:35.600 it's something unheard of
00:12:36.640 today.
00:12:38.240 Okay,
00:12:38.740 what made him
00:12:39.480 such a great fighter?
00:12:40.420 I mean,
00:12:40.640 was he scientific
00:12:42.240 about his fighting?
00:12:43.260 Was he just
00:12:43.880 a one-trick pony
00:12:45.220 and just went in
00:12:45.920 and was just brutal with him?
00:12:47.500 What made him
00:12:47.960 such a great fighter?
00:12:49.240 It was a combination
00:12:50.200 of speed and power.
00:12:53.760 He was not
00:12:54.700 a classically trained boxer.
00:12:56.100 He never took
00:12:56.540 a boxing lesson
00:12:57.340 in his life.
00:12:59.060 That being said,
00:13:00.000 he did think about,
00:13:01.180 you know,
00:13:01.400 the scientific points
00:13:03.060 of boxing
00:13:03.640 and claimed that,
00:13:05.960 you know,
00:13:06.180 he sort of studied up on it
00:13:08.920 and determined
00:13:09.420 that he knew precisely
00:13:10.560 the right point
00:13:11.540 on an opponent's jaw
00:13:12.720 to hit him
00:13:13.860 to knock him out.
00:13:14.900 So,
00:13:15.240 you know,
00:13:15.440 he did think of it
00:13:16.260 a bit in a scientific manner,
00:13:17.640 but he certainly
00:13:18.620 wasn't formally trained
00:13:20.180 or had any sort of lessons.
00:13:21.540 It really was
00:13:22.380 that he just had
00:13:24.080 such a powerful right
00:13:26.080 that he could
00:13:26.820 hit his opponents with
00:13:28.080 and he could deliver it
00:13:29.260 really quickly.
00:13:30.360 He could just
00:13:30.960 get his punches
00:13:31.860 off so quickly
00:13:33.300 and it said
00:13:33.800 that he pounced
00:13:34.420 around the ring
00:13:35.300 like a tiger
00:13:35.980 that that combination
00:13:38.200 of the speed
00:13:39.060 and power
00:13:39.520 would often
00:13:40.120 overwhelm opponents.
00:13:41.880 And then,
00:13:42.420 after he became champion,
00:13:43.680 really,
00:13:44.080 the force of his personality
00:13:45.440 tended to intimidate
00:13:46.660 his opponents, too.
00:13:47.660 And it was said
00:13:48.140 that he often won
00:13:49.740 half his fights
00:13:51.120 just by getting
00:13:52.320 into the ring
00:13:52.900 and staring down
00:13:53.660 his opponent.
00:13:54.260 that it tended
00:13:55.760 to intimidate him
00:13:56.620 so much
00:13:57.120 that he really had
00:13:58.120 that advantage,
00:13:59.500 that psychological
00:13:59.980 advantage
00:14:00.660 every time he stepped
00:14:01.400 into the ring.
00:14:04.460 So,
00:14:05.260 as we talked about
00:14:06.540 in the introduction
00:14:07.240 of the podcast,
00:14:09.740 John O'Sullivan
00:14:10.260 came to rise
00:14:11.680 the same time
00:14:12.740 when we had
00:14:13.960 the rise of
00:14:14.800 mass media.
00:14:16.660 There's all these
00:14:17.180 newspapers,
00:14:17.980 these sports dailies
00:14:18.980 were coming to,
00:14:19.920 I guess,
00:14:21.440 power.
00:14:22.340 And one of the most
00:14:23.000 popular sports dailies
00:14:24.780 amongst bachelors
00:14:26.040 in America
00:14:26.500 at the time
00:14:27.040 was the National
00:14:27.960 Police Gazette.
00:14:29.900 This is a magazine
00:14:31.000 we've talked before
00:14:31.720 about on the site.
00:14:33.900 And it's just a,
00:14:34.860 can you talk a little bit
00:14:35.400 about the National
00:14:35.840 Police Gazette
00:14:36.320 and what effect
00:14:36.900 it had on boxing?
00:14:37.760 And also about
00:14:38.560 the owner of the Gazette
00:14:39.820 at this time.
00:14:40.480 It's Richard K. Fox,
00:14:42.680 another very larger
00:14:44.040 than life character.
00:14:45.540 He had a rivalry
00:14:46.600 between John O'Sullivan
00:14:47.860 and it seems like
00:14:49.100 that rivalry
00:14:49.800 between Sullivan
00:14:50.640 and Fox
00:14:51.340 really fueled
00:14:52.400 the popularity
00:14:53.120 of boxing.
00:14:54.200 So talk a little bit
00:14:54.780 about the National
00:14:55.320 Police Gazette
00:14:55.960 and talk about
00:14:57.260 Richard K. Fox
00:14:58.740 and Sullivan.
00:15:00.280 The National Police
00:15:01.220 is the National
00:15:04.200 Enquirer of its day.
00:15:05.980 It was a weekly
00:15:06.920 tabloid.
00:15:08.300 It printed
00:15:08.980 salacious stories
00:15:10.160 about sex
00:15:12.300 and violence
00:15:12.980 and if it could
00:15:13.420 wrap the two
00:15:14.040 into a story
00:15:15.020 so much the better.
00:15:16.080 So it covered
00:15:18.100 Wild West shootouts
00:15:19.420 and Native American
00:15:20.440 raids and lynchings
00:15:22.000 and often stories
00:15:23.660 about damsels
00:15:25.400 in distress
00:15:26.060 who might be
00:15:27.480 shooting guns
00:15:28.640 at jilted lovers
00:15:29.600 and there were
00:15:30.720 these elaborate
00:15:31.380 woodcut illustrations
00:15:32.760 inside too
00:15:33.760 that often depicted
00:15:35.840 these violent episodes
00:15:38.300 or women showing
00:15:39.820 a scandalous amount
00:15:41.420 of maybe their shoulders
00:15:42.480 or their ankles
00:15:43.240 as well.
00:15:43.860 And so it was
00:15:45.720 a very salacious
00:15:46.640 publication
00:15:47.500 and its proprietor
00:15:49.260 Richard K. Fox
00:15:50.260 he also saw
00:15:52.940 the growing interest
00:15:54.380 in sports
00:15:54.960 in America.
00:15:56.020 So he added sports
00:15:58.040 into the mix
00:15:58.960 of the stories
00:15:59.840 about sex
00:16:00.560 and violence
00:16:01.300 and certainly
00:16:01.920 boxing very much
00:16:03.400 fit in with
00:16:04.140 the violence
00:16:05.200 that he was covering
00:16:06.140 in America
00:16:07.000 and he becomes
00:16:08.580 sort of an important
00:16:09.380 figure in boxing.
00:16:10.500 He starts handing out
00:16:11.320 championship belts
00:16:12.300 and trophies.
00:16:14.180 He sets weight classes
00:16:15.440 and inside the pages
00:16:16.860 of the National Police
00:16:17.700 Gazette
00:16:18.120 he would print challenges
00:16:19.800 from one fighter
00:16:20.600 to another.
00:16:21.420 So in that way
00:16:22.420 Fox was sort of
00:16:23.240 part Rupert Murdoch
00:16:24.400 part Don King.
00:16:26.260 He's very much
00:16:27.480 a powerful figure
00:16:28.340 in boxing
00:16:28.800 when Sullivan
00:16:29.360 comes along
00:16:30.080 and there's
00:16:31.460 an apocryphal story
00:16:32.640 that the two
00:16:33.640 are sitting inside
00:16:35.220 Harry Hill's
00:16:36.040 Gentleman Theater
00:16:36.760 one of the most famous
00:16:38.280 haunts in New York
00:16:40.000 in 1881
00:16:41.980 a couple days
00:16:43.080 after Sullivan
00:16:44.460 won a big match
00:16:45.780 on the stage
00:16:46.420 inside Harry Hills
00:16:47.560 and Fox sees
00:16:49.480 Sullivan holding court
00:16:51.100 and sends word
00:16:51.860 to a waiter
00:16:52.560 to have Sullivan
00:16:53.260 come over
00:16:53.740 to his table
00:16:54.420 and according
00:16:56.060 to the legend
00:16:56.680 Sullivan roars
00:16:58.140 back at the waiter
00:16:58.980 that it's no farther
00:17:00.240 from him to me
00:17:02.680 than me to him
00:17:03.560 if Fox wants
00:17:04.420 to see me
00:17:04.860 he can come over
00:17:05.560 to me
00:17:05.980 and that supposedly
00:17:08.000 is a story
00:17:08.760 that launches
00:17:09.640 the dislike
00:17:10.800 of these two guys
00:17:12.160 that last
00:17:12.660 for the better
00:17:13.560 part of Sullivan's
00:17:14.640 career
00:17:15.060 now like I said
00:17:16.460 that story
00:17:17.020 is probably apocryphal
00:17:18.080 but we do know
00:17:18.840 that the two men
00:17:19.560 did meet in New York
00:17:20.620 around that time period
00:17:21.820 and we do know
00:17:23.520 that they did take
00:17:24.200 an instant dislike
00:17:25.060 to each other
00:17:25.640 probably because
00:17:26.280 they were just
00:17:26.680 very similar personalities
00:17:28.080 they both
00:17:28.680 were Irish Americans
00:17:30.960 they were both
00:17:31.820 very stubborn
00:17:33.140 bullheaded
00:17:33.820 successful
00:17:34.500 driven men
00:17:35.620 Fox was used
00:17:37.180 to sort of
00:17:37.620 getting his way
00:17:38.200 by the power
00:17:38.820 of the pen
00:17:39.340 and Sullivan
00:17:39.860 his way
00:17:40.660 by the power
00:17:41.280 of the fist
00:17:41.840 and they
00:17:42.860 they were sort
00:17:43.540 of like two
00:17:44.040 magnets
00:17:44.460 with the same
00:17:45.040 polarity
00:17:45.580 so similar
00:17:46.320 that they were
00:17:46.980 just going
00:17:47.680 to repel
00:17:48.260 whenever they
00:17:48.820 got together
00:17:49.520 so from
00:17:51.240 that first
00:17:52.460 meeting that
00:17:52.860 they had
00:17:53.260 in New York
00:17:53.780 Fox then
00:17:54.780 he literally
00:17:55.680 searched the
00:17:56.180 ends of the
00:17:56.580 earth to try
00:17:57.040 to find
00:17:57.480 opponents
00:17:58.000 to take
00:17:58.680 out Sullivan
00:17:59.260 he went
00:17:59.800 to
00:18:00.160 he imported
00:18:01.300 fighters
00:18:01.660 from England
00:18:02.320 he imported
00:18:03.120 a fighter
00:18:03.780 all the way
00:18:04.240 from New Zealand
00:18:05.040 and he never
00:18:06.780 had any luck
00:18:07.720 getting Sullivan
00:18:09.580 getting someone
00:18:10.720 to knock out
00:18:11.500 Sullivan
00:18:11.920 but despite
00:18:14.140 how much
00:18:14.520 they hated
00:18:14.860 each other
00:18:15.360 it was a
00:18:16.820 very mutually
00:18:17.600 beneficial
00:18:18.180 hatred
00:18:18.560 because
00:18:19.160 with Fox's
00:18:21.660 newspaper
00:18:22.240 Sullivan
00:18:23.120 took on
00:18:24.080 the starring
00:18:24.520 role
00:18:24.880 and he sold
00:18:25.860 Fox
00:18:26.300 he sold
00:18:27.280 hundreds
00:18:27.580 of thousands
00:18:28.300 of newspapers
00:18:28.900 for Fox
00:18:29.580 and by
00:18:30.720 starring in
00:18:31.580 the Police
00:18:31.860 Gazette
00:18:32.240 Fox really
00:18:32.860 made Sullivan
00:18:33.800 a celebrity
00:18:34.460 too
00:18:34.960 so
00:18:35.320 the two
00:18:36.160 you know
00:18:36.660 as much
00:18:37.740 as they
00:18:38.000 disliked
00:18:38.500 each other
00:18:38.900 this rivalry
00:18:40.020 between the
00:18:41.580 two
00:18:41.820 really paid
00:18:42.740 big dividends
00:18:43.320 for both
00:18:43.740 of them
00:18:44.400 so as we
00:18:45.680 talked before
00:18:46.380 John L. Sullivan
00:18:47.180 is basically
00:18:48.540 America's
00:18:49.680 and you could
00:18:51.280 even argue
00:18:51.620 the world's
00:18:52.340 first superstar
00:18:53.340 athlete
00:18:53.900 I mean he's
00:18:54.680 the first
00:18:54.980 athlete to
00:18:55.540 ever earn
00:18:55.940 a million
00:18:56.340 dollars
00:18:56.820 but what's
00:18:59.500 interesting
00:18:59.660 I found it
00:19:00.100 fascinating about
00:19:00.600 him he sort
00:19:00.960 of laid the
00:19:01.500 groundwork of
00:19:02.300 what superstar
00:19:03.040 athletes are
00:19:03.760 supposed to
00:19:04.560 do right
00:19:05.340 sort of like
00:19:05.860 laid the
00:19:06.160 archetype and
00:19:07.040 one of the
00:19:07.500 interesting things
00:19:07.900 I found about
00:19:08.520 him out about
00:19:09.320 John L. Sullivan
00:19:09.880 in your book
00:19:10.320 was that he
00:19:11.180 parlayed his
00:19:11.860 fame in
00:19:12.680 boxing to
00:19:13.360 other arenas
00:19:14.260 in the
00:19:14.500 entertainment
00:19:14.940 arena he
00:19:16.620 talked a little
00:19:16.960 about some
00:19:17.380 of Sullivan's
00:19:18.940 I guess exploits
00:19:20.320 and other
00:19:21.240 areas of the
00:19:22.560 entertainment
00:19:22.880 industry
00:19:23.340 yeah I
00:19:24.260 found this
00:19:25.200 really fascinating
00:19:25.880 too because it
00:19:26.520 really did
00:19:26.980 echo you know
00:19:28.020 what we sort
00:19:28.780 of see with
00:19:29.280 modern celebrities
00:19:30.100 modern sports
00:19:31.420 stars to sort
00:19:32.100 of blur the
00:19:33.220 lines of the
00:19:34.000 different arenas
00:19:34.680 of celebrity
00:19:35.260 and this
00:19:37.000 started off
00:19:37.380 pretty early
00:19:37.900 in Sullivan's
00:19:38.820 championship
00:19:39.320 range so
00:19:40.140 a couple
00:19:41.840 years after
00:19:42.480 he was
00:19:42.740 champion he
00:19:43.640 signed on
00:19:44.540 to a
00:19:46.220 living
00:19:47.880 statuary
00:19:48.580 group so
00:19:49.500 he would
00:19:50.160 travel around
00:19:51.120 the country
00:19:51.800 appearing on
00:19:52.880 different stages
00:19:53.600 he would be
00:19:55.560 covered in
00:19:56.120 this white
00:19:56.560 powder maybe
00:19:58.160 wearing just
00:19:58.960 skin tight
00:20:00.360 tights on
00:20:01.020 him and
00:20:01.880 then he
00:20:02.220 would sort
00:20:02.680 of take
00:20:03.100 these different
00:20:03.620 poses in
00:20:04.680 the forms
00:20:05.280 of Greek
00:20:06.700 and Roman
00:20:07.260 sculptures
00:20:08.060 it was called
00:20:09.120 living statuary
00:20:10.180 and he sold
00:20:11.980 out audiences
00:20:12.700 you know just
00:20:13.720 by people who
00:20:14.300 wanted to come
00:20:14.800 in and see
00:20:15.380 him do these
00:20:16.380 24 different
00:20:17.360 poses on
00:20:18.080 stage you
00:20:19.100 know they
00:20:19.260 didn't really
00:20:19.620 care about
00:20:20.240 seeing John
00:20:20.760 L. Sullivan
00:20:21.180 a boxer
00:20:21.680 they just
00:20:22.040 want to be
00:20:22.460 John L. Sullivan
00:20:23.320 in the flesh
00:20:24.960 and that's
00:20:26.860 where it
00:20:27.100 launches this
00:20:27.800 vaudeville career
00:20:28.660 that he has
00:20:29.320 for the
00:20:29.640 better part
00:20:30.160 of 20
00:20:30.840 years and
00:20:31.680 he goes on
00:20:34.200 to star in
00:20:35.360 different theatrical
00:20:36.200 productions
00:20:37.200 where in his
00:20:38.860 career
00:20:39.440 they
00:20:40.220 playwright
00:20:42.200 pens a play
00:20:44.080 specifically for
00:20:45.020 him with him
00:20:45.600 in a starring
00:20:46.080 role called
00:20:46.800 Honest Hearts
00:20:47.860 and Willing
00:20:48.340 Hands and he
00:20:50.100 toured around
00:20:50.740 the country
00:20:51.260 six seven
00:20:52.060 months appearing
00:20:52.760 on stage in
00:20:53.560 these plays
00:20:54.180 where you
00:20:55.080 know he
00:20:55.240 was an
00:20:56.580 okay actor
00:20:57.600 and at the
00:20:59.500 end of the
00:21:00.180 climax of each
00:21:01.320 play he'd get
00:21:02.340 into the ring
00:21:02.900 for a four
00:21:03.500 round exhibition
00:21:04.380 and you know
00:21:07.220 he sold out
00:21:08.080 theaters around
00:21:09.240 the country
00:21:09.640 doing these
00:21:10.120 performances
00:21:10.660 so he each
00:21:12.180 year did
00:21:12.720 different plays
00:21:13.820 one year he
00:21:14.400 even appeared
00:21:14.960 as Simon
00:21:15.620 Legree and
00:21:16.120 Uncle Tom's
00:21:16.760 Cabin
00:21:17.200 one year he
00:21:18.240 went around
00:21:18.940 delivering monologues
00:21:20.340 and reciting
00:21:20.920 different poems
00:21:22.240 and he
00:21:23.960 also would
00:21:24.680 appear he
00:21:26.420 was hired by
00:21:27.020 professional
00:21:27.480 baseball teams
00:21:28.340 to come and
00:21:29.240 pitch exhibition
00:21:29.920 games for them
00:21:30.660 or to umpire
00:21:31.640 baseball games
00:21:32.440 and they'd get
00:21:33.020 seven eight
00:21:34.000 thousand people
00:21:34.660 would show up
00:21:35.200 to watch a
00:21:35.840 meaningless
00:21:36.140 baseball game
00:21:37.020 just to watch
00:21:37.860 Sullivan pitch
00:21:39.100 you know
00:21:39.500 it was really
00:21:43.420 interesting to
00:21:43.960 find how people
00:21:44.880 really just you
00:21:45.820 know they paid
00:21:46.340 good money
00:21:46.920 just to see
00:21:48.260 him in person
00:21:48.840 not necessarily
00:21:49.460 to see him
00:21:49.860 in the ring
00:21:50.320 also by the
00:21:51.700 strenuous life
00:21:52.340 the strenuous
00:21:52.700 life is an
00:21:53.020 online platform
00:21:53.640 that we created
00:21:54.340 they'll be put
00:21:54.800 into action all
00:21:55.320 the things we've
00:21:55.800 been writing about
00:21:56.480 in the art of
00:21:56.900 manliness for the
00:21:57.380 past 11 years
00:21:58.380 now and talking
00:21:59.200 about on the
00:21:59.660 podcast and we've
00:22:00.400 done that a few
00:22:00.980 ways first we
00:22:01.740 created a series
00:22:02.280 of 50 different
00:22:02.960 badges based
00:22:03.560 around 50
00:22:04.040 different skills
00:22:04.600 there's things
00:22:05.000 like public
00:22:05.420 speaking social
00:22:06.260 skills personal
00:22:07.060 finance how to
00:22:07.780 be a better
00:22:08.160 husband better
00:22:08.600 father we also
00:22:09.380 have hard skills
00:22:09.980 like first aid
00:22:10.720 will that a
00:22:11.120 survival self
00:22:11.840 defense emergency
00:22:12.900 prep we've got
00:22:13.820 that we also
00:22:14.640 will send you a
00:22:15.120 weekly challenge
00:22:15.860 they'll push you
00:22:16.520 outside of your
00:22:17.000 comfort zone in
00:22:17.600 some way we
00:22:18.280 also hold you
00:22:18.800 accountable with a
00:22:19.460 daily fitness check-in
00:22:20.380 and a good deed
00:22:21.060 check-in to get you
00:22:21.800 thinking outside of
00:22:22.600 yourself and with
00:22:23.360 the strenuous life
00:22:23.840 there's opportunities
00:22:24.340 for you to meet up
00:22:25.180 with other TSL
00:22:26.140 members in your
00:22:27.080 area to do this
00:22:28.040 stuff together we
00:22:29.020 just had an
00:22:29.420 enrollment in
00:22:29.860 September filled it
00:22:30.640 up in less than
00:22:31.100 24 hours our next
00:22:32.380 enrollment is going
00:22:32.940 to be in January so
00:22:33.960 if you want to kick
00:22:34.460 off the year right
00:22:35.400 check out the
00:22:35.960 strenuous life.co get
00:22:37.480 your email on our
00:22:38.380 waiting list we'll let
00:22:39.300 you know as soon as
00:22:39.880 enrollment opens up
00:22:40.740 while you're at
00:22:41.240 strenuous life.co check
00:22:42.640 out the program we
00:22:43.580 laid out all that's
00:22:44.620 involved in it what you
00:22:45.480 get and we also have
00:22:46.400 lots of testimonials
00:22:47.180 from members who've
00:22:47.960 done the program as
00:22:48.760 well strenuous life.co
00:22:50.080 put your email on the
00:22:51.220 waiting list hope to
00:22:52.260 see you in January and
00:22:54.020 now back to the show
00:22:55.140 yeah I just found that
00:22:56.440 just completely
00:22:57.720 fascinating and it
00:22:58.720 just I think you did a
00:22:59.860 good job capturing sort
00:23:01.280 of the the celebrity
00:23:02.600 the birth of celebrity
00:23:04.040 mania in America yeah
00:23:05.800 and it's it's amazing
00:23:07.020 people think about how
00:23:08.440 our celebrity obsession
00:23:09.960 today is something new
00:23:11.180 and it's been around for
00:23:12.520 over a hundred years you
00:23:13.700 know it's just it's
00:23:14.680 crazy
00:23:15.200 so let's talk so
00:23:18.200 John O'Sullivan
00:23:18.740 without a doubt one
00:23:20.220 of the best fighters
00:23:21.020 in the history of
00:23:22.100 boxing but the man
00:23:24.280 had a lot of personal
00:23:27.220 flaws like big big time
00:23:28.900 flaws and the one that
00:23:31.500 haunted him for most of
00:23:32.600 his career was his
00:23:34.280 alcoholism his drinking
00:23:36.000 can you talk a little
00:23:37.220 bit about John O'Sullivan's
00:23:38.720 battle with the bottle and
00:23:40.240 how that affected his
00:23:41.920 personal life and how did
00:23:43.120 it affect his career
00:23:43.920 yeah I mean it appears
00:23:47.040 that Sullivan was not a
00:23:49.080 really big drinker until
00:23:50.280 he won the championship
00:23:51.860 in 1882 and then you
00:23:53.620 know he's got people who
00:23:54.540 are you know always
00:23:55.540 wanting to buy him
00:23:56.340 drinks and he opens up
00:23:58.200 his own saloon in
00:23:59.380 Boston and really in
00:24:02.380 short order he really
00:24:03.980 develops a really bad
00:24:06.000 drinking problem that
00:24:07.080 really does take its
00:24:08.240 toll on him and he
00:24:09.540 suffers through some very
00:24:10.800 bad illnesses after some
00:24:12.980 some drunken vendors that
00:24:14.620 he goes on a couple
00:24:15.520 times he summoned a
00:24:18.460 priest to his bedside to
00:24:19.880 deliver last rites one
00:24:22.100 illness in particular he
00:24:23.600 dropped 60 pounds and was
00:24:25.140 thought to really be near
00:24:26.400 death and they were
00:24:27.080 sending out bulletins by
00:24:28.360 the hour in terms of how
00:24:30.240 he was faring these
00:24:32.480 drunken vendors got him
00:24:33.900 into countless run-ins with
00:24:35.600 the law where he get into
00:24:36.620 barroom brawls or even one
00:24:38.180 time he was arrested for
00:24:40.860 punching his horse out on
00:24:43.100 one of the streets in
00:24:43.960 Boston in a breakup of his
00:24:49.300 marriage he becomes a very
00:24:52.320 terrible alcoholic and comes
00:24:54.040 home and he's drunk in
00:24:55.480 states and it appears that he
00:24:59.620 took his work home with him
00:25:01.320 and beat his wife on a
00:25:02.880 number of different
00:25:03.580 occasions and in his boxing
00:25:07.220 career took its impact too
00:25:08.860 he showed up for one fight at
00:25:10.660 Madison Square Garden you
00:25:12.880 know the place is sold out
00:25:13.920 waiting for him to come into
00:25:14.880 the ring all of a sudden he
00:25:15.720 shows up stumbling drunk into
00:25:18.540 the ring and telling him that
00:25:19.760 you know he has a doctor's
00:25:21.380 note that says he's too sick
00:25:22.680 to go in to fight but you
00:25:24.020 know everyone could just
00:25:25.180 visibly see that he was
00:25:26.780 terribly inebriated inside the
00:25:29.860 ring so you know it took
00:25:31.260 some shots to his reputation
00:25:32.600 it led to breakups with
00:25:33.800 managers led to to break up
00:25:35.260 with his marriage and you
00:25:37.840 know it was a big problem
00:25:39.720 for him for 20 years and then
00:25:42.600 suddenly in 1905 according to
00:25:44.580 him he just calculated that he
00:25:47.560 had earned a million dollars
00:25:48.620 and spent half a million of it
00:25:50.120 on booze and decided to quit
00:25:52.220 cold turkey and you know it
00:25:54.780 appears that that was true
00:25:55.900 that you know somehow he was
00:25:58.620 able to just quit drinking just
00:26:00.960 like that and then later in
00:26:02.400 his life he became a temperance
00:26:03.960 speaker too so you know it was
00:26:07.000 sort of a redemptive moment for
00:26:08.520 him later in his life yeah I
00:26:10.300 thought I was I was glad to see
00:26:11.600 that because I've heard about
00:26:12.900 John L Sullivan's you know
00:26:14.620 drunkenness and his you know
00:26:16.540 wife beating and I was glad to
00:26:18.680 see he was able to turn around at
00:26:20.280 the end of his life yeah finally so
00:26:22.560 yeah it is it like you said it
00:26:23.760 you're the biography John L Sullivan
00:26:25.220 is very much like a redemption
00:26:26.880 story at its heart another big
00:26:31.200 flaw of John L Sullivan that lots
00:26:33.900 of other white men at the time had
00:26:36.740 during the 19th century was he was
00:26:38.720 a racist and I loved how you did a
00:26:42.260 good job explaining the the race
00:26:46.860 line in boxing which was white
00:26:49.220 fighters would not fight black
00:26:50.860 fighters and it was particularly
00:26:52.500 poignant with Irish American fighters
00:26:55.000 can you talk a little bit about the
00:26:57.180 race line in boxing at the time
00:26:58.520 yeah you know in the 1880s during
00:27:02.320 Sullivan's time boxing was actually
00:27:03.860 probably one of the more
00:27:05.860 integrated if not the most
00:27:07.020 integrated of sports in America
00:27:09.280 this is a time when you know
00:27:11.400 baseball is becoming segregated
00:27:13.340 until that would last for you know
00:27:15.100 60 years until the time of Jackie
00:27:16.780 Robinson but you would find white
00:27:19.820 fighters and black fighters in the
00:27:21.900 ring with one gigantic exception that
00:27:25.500 being for the championship bouts so
00:27:28.460 you know Sullivan certainly carried
00:27:30.560 the racial biases that many Irish
00:27:32.340 Americans of the day had to begin
00:27:34.200 with and then once he gets the
00:27:36.120 championship he really feels that it's
00:27:38.080 his duty to keep a black man from
00:27:39.820 ever wearing the championship belt so
00:27:42.280 he draws what he calls the color line
00:27:45.400 and refuses to fight any black fighters
00:27:48.580 once he became champion in the ring and
00:27:51.660 it appears that before he was champion
00:27:54.460 that there might have been some matches
00:27:56.100 that were set up and never happened but
00:27:58.220 the fact that the fact is that he never
00:28:01.580 once got into the ring with an African
00:28:04.220 American or any sort of any sort of black
00:28:07.000 fighter and later in his career in the
00:28:11.480 last couple of years there was a fighter
00:28:13.580 named Peter Jackson he was an aboriginal
00:28:16.240 fighter from Australia and he was certainly
00:28:19.880 among the handful of the top contenders
00:28:22.060 of the day in fact in 1891 he fought
00:28:25.560 Jim Corbett who would go on to defeat
00:28:28.520 Sullivan to a 61 round no contest so we
00:28:32.420 know that he was at least the match of
00:28:35.060 Corbett who would have who ends up
00:28:37.880 knocking out Sullivan so we know that
00:28:40.700 Jackson would at least have been a
00:28:42.180 formidable challenger to Sullivan in the
00:28:45.040 ring but he flatly when he invites in
00:28:48.920 1892 invite fighters to take him on he
00:28:52.840 specifically writes in his notice to the
00:28:54.920 press that he will not fight any Negro
00:28:57.360 fighters that would include Peter Jackson
00:28:59.540 so you know that certainly was among the
00:29:04.940 you know the dark episodes when you take a
00:29:07.480 look at the life of Sullivan so you just
00:29:10.560 mentioned James Corbett gentleman Jim he
00:29:13.220 was the fighter that finally defeated John
00:29:17.100 L Sullivan how was Corbett able to beat
00:29:20.820 him was he just a was he more scientific
00:29:23.260 fighter than Sullivan was Sullivan just out of
00:29:25.440 shape and just drunk what how did he
00:29:30.300 finally how did so how did Corbett beat
00:29:32.100 Sullivan sort of a combination of two
00:29:35.480 Corbett was a very different fighter and a very different personality from Sullivan now
00:29:41.680 Sullivan as I said never took a lesson in his life but
00:29:45.560 Corbett was a very technical very scientific fighter he had gone through a lot of training at the Olympic Club in San Francisco so he wasn't really a fighter who fought on instinct he really was an intellectual type of fighter and we talked about in the book that that Corbett and Sullivan actually fought in exhibition a couple years before they met for the championship
00:30:01.560 and even then according to Corbett he was sort of feeling out Sullivan and he would purposely put himself against the ropes to see how Sullivan would sort of give away his punches so you know he was thinking about fights round and round
00:30:31.560 Corbett was sort of viewed fight as a chess match.
00:30:37.120 Sullivan's approach to fighting was that he would just be like an elephant
00:30:40.460 that would come and just trample right over at the chessboard.
00:30:43.520 It was all about power and brawn and getting right on top of your opponent
00:30:47.580 right from the get-go, whereas Corbett's thinking three, four steps ahead.
00:30:52.280 So they did have these very different approaches,
00:30:55.320 and I think the scientific approach that Corbett brought into the ring
00:30:59.300 served him well in the fight.
00:31:02.080 But it was true that Sullivan comes into the ring not in his peak condition either.
00:31:07.080 He is 33 years old.
00:31:11.580 He had not fought in the ring in a championship fight for three years.
00:31:16.920 His training leading up to the fight was not all that rigorous.
00:31:21.320 He had all these other activities on the side.
00:31:24.700 So as he's training for the fight, he's also rehearsing for his new theatrical production.
00:31:29.300 And that's going to start in the weeks after the fight.
00:31:32.620 He's finishing up an autobiography.
00:31:35.360 So he's not throwing himself full throttle into the training.
00:31:39.660 And he's still a little bit out of shape when he shows up in the ring with Corbett
00:31:45.640 and manages to put on a good fight.
00:31:48.220 He hangs in there for the better part of an hour and 21 rounds.
00:31:51.000 But ultimately, Corbett is a younger, more in shape, more thoughtful fighter.
00:31:58.120 And I think that ultimately is the reason why he ends up emerging triumphant in that fight.
00:32:04.560 And what happened to Sullivan's career after the defeat?
00:32:08.040 Did he sort of put boxing on the back burner and devoted more time to his acting career
00:32:13.300 and his, I guess, just as a career as a celebrity?
00:32:15.840 What did he do with the rest of his life?
00:32:18.300 Yeah, I mean, he sort of becomes this professional celebrity.
00:32:21.940 So he does have this fallback option where he has been, at least for the three previous years,
00:32:28.200 been going around the country starring these theatrical productions.
00:32:31.580 And he continues to do that.
00:32:33.040 And, you know, he flirts every once in a while of getting back in the ring
00:32:38.000 and fighting in a big championship fight and every once in a while calls out these other fighters.
00:32:43.920 But, you know, he did not like training at all.
00:32:48.440 You know, he liked to indulge in food and drinking.
00:32:51.680 And he sort of threw himself into that big time, you know, after he lost to Corbett.
00:32:56.640 And, you know, I think he knew that he never was going to put the effort in to really get into the fighting shape that he wanted to be.
00:33:04.540 And so a lot of these challenges, I think, were a lot of bluster that came from him.
00:33:08.100 But he still did appear in the ring periodically.
00:33:11.580 He would fight in different exhibitions against fighters, mainly, you know, these weren't real fights.
00:33:20.360 You know, he was just getting into the ring for different charity events and touring around the country.
00:33:25.940 He actually toured with some of his former opponents, and they put on these different shows around the country.
00:33:33.660 So, you know, he kept in the boxing arena for a good almost 20 years after he lost that championship fight.
00:33:42.280 But, you know, he still was one of the more famous men in America, even after he was no longer the title holder,
00:33:48.300 because, you know, people just knew the great John L. and the Boston Strong Boy.
00:33:54.160 And he still was touring the country and showing up in towns, cities all around America.
00:34:00.380 So, you know, he really was just this professional celebrity there for a long time.
00:34:05.480 Yeah, I love there was a song, a vaudeville song written about him called,
00:34:09.480 I Shook the Hand That Shook the Hand of John L. Sullivan.
00:34:12.720 Yeah.
00:34:13.200 I mean, I just, I love that line.
00:34:14.760 Okay, so his boxing career just sort of fizzled out and sort of spent the rest of his life doing the celebrity thing, acting.
00:34:23.140 He became a temperance advocate.
00:34:25.380 He also settled down with another woman, another wife, and he adopted his son.
00:34:31.700 He kind of became a farmer.
00:34:33.440 I guess that's what he would describe, a country gentleman.
00:34:36.500 Yeah.
00:34:36.840 Yeah, his life sort of comes full circle at the end, you know, as, you know, a lot of life stories tend to.
00:34:46.120 You know, I think, you know, as people mellow his age and they sort of take stock on where they've been.
00:34:50.840 I think Sullivan sort of did the same thing.
00:34:52.820 You know, he was, you know, 51, 52 years old and he had given up drinking for a couple of years and then he strikes up a romance with a childhood friend of his and gets a divorce from his first wife and marries this woman and they buy a farm outside of Boston.
00:35:13.280 And, yeah, Sullivan sort of rights those wrongs.
00:35:17.820 You know, he, you know, he is his temperance advocate.
00:35:22.800 He did have a son with his first wife, but he wasn't there when his son was born.
00:35:29.500 He wasn't there when his son died suddenly at the age of two and a half.
00:35:33.920 And by all indications, he never even visited the graveside of his son.
00:35:38.940 And that was, you know, just a terrible thing when you look back at that.
00:35:44.280 But with his second wife, they bring in this orphan and adopt him and bring in another friend of a close, another young boy from a close friend that was going through health problems.
00:35:57.040 And by all accounts, he was a great father figure to these boys.
00:36:00.040 The kids that lived around him on the farm all loved him and he was great with the kids.
00:36:04.840 And, you know, he does settle down to be this farmer and, you know, also to bring the story full circle.
00:36:13.360 His parents, you know, emigrated from Ireland in the wake of the great hunger and the potato famine there.
00:36:19.820 And the most bountiful crop that Sullivan is able to grow on his farm outside of Boston turns out to be potatoes.
00:36:28.180 You know, and I think it sort of shows that journey of that so many Irish American families went through from the terrible hunger in Ireland to ultimately success here in America.
00:36:42.420 All right.
00:36:43.400 Time is coming to an end.
00:36:45.020 Last question.
00:36:46.960 Besides boxing, what legacy do you think Sullivan had on, I guess, manhood or masculinity in America?
00:36:54.660 And I love the idea that Plutarch puts out there, that biography should be used for moral instruction.
00:37:01.340 Is there any lessons that you took away from the life of Sullivan as you researched and wrote about him?
00:37:06.940 Yeah, I think so.
00:37:08.180 I mean, you know, he is sort of this icon of masculinity.
00:37:11.680 And, you know, I think even though you may not know much about Sullivan or even necessarily know his name, you probably know that image of the, you know, the bare-chested, handlebarred, mustachioed figure that is sort of an icon for masculinity.
00:37:31.480 And, you know, I sort of think, you know, there are obviously, when you examine any sort of life, those are those qualities that you admire and those that you want to take instruction from.
00:37:43.100 And I think the thing about Sullivan that made him such a fascinating character to me was just the way that he attacked life.
00:37:51.120 And he was very much this Teddy Roosevelt kind of figure.
00:37:54.220 And it's no surprise that the two men actually struck up a bit of a friendship because, you know, they sort of threw themselves into everything that they did.
00:38:05.400 You know, there wasn't anything that they did half-hearted, you know, anytime Sullivan was in the ring, the minute that the fights start, he put his full effort into it.
00:38:16.040 And that's sort of the way that he approached life as well, you know, is that he really lived life at full throttle.
00:38:24.140 And you can't say that, you know, there were too many wasted minutes during the course of the day when it came to John L. Sullivan.
00:38:32.460 And, you know, there's sort of a popular saying of the day that, you know, any man would sort of give 15 minutes, you know, give anything just to spend 15 minutes in the skin of John L. Sullivan.
00:38:43.100 And I think that's true for the most part.
00:38:45.900 But then you do take a look at these black marks on sort of his life being the racism, the way that he treated his son, the way that he treated his first wife, you know, the drinking problem that he had.
00:39:02.100 And, you know, I think you look at those as instructive moments as ones that when you look at your own life, you certainly wish that you do a better job as a father, as a husband, you know, in terms of how you live your life with your family.
00:39:23.680 So, you know, I think those are instructive for us.
00:39:27.880 But I do think there really is this powerful energy that was around him and just the way that he attacked life is something that, you know, we sort of want to try to emulate in everything that we do.
00:39:41.120 Well, very good.
00:39:41.520 Well, Chris, it was a fascinating discussion and it's a fascinating book.
00:39:45.200 I wish we had more time to delve into the life of John L. Sullivan, but thank you for your time.
00:39:51.260 And I'm going to encourage all my readers to go out and get his book.
00:39:54.180 It's The Strong Boy, The Life and Times of John L. Sullivan.
00:39:57.440 Chris Klein, thank you so much for your time.
00:39:59.540 Brett, thank you.
00:40:00.200 I appreciate it.
00:40:01.280 Our guest today was Christopher Klein.
00:40:02.840 Christopher is the author of the book Strong Boy, The Life and Times of John L. Sullivan, America's First Sports Hero.
00:40:09.560 You can find that book at Barnes & Noble and on Amazon.com.
00:40:13.000 And I highly recommend you go check it out.
00:40:15.180 It's just a fascinating read.
00:40:18.260 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:40:22.240 For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com.
00:40:27.640 And if you enjoy the podcast, we'd really appreciate it if you go on iTunes or whatever service you use to listen or download the podcast and give us a review.
00:40:35.660 That would help us out a lot.
00:40:37.140 And until next time, stay manly.
00:40:43.000 We'll see you next time.