The Art of Manliness - Episode #54： The Life Of John L. Sullivan With Christopher Klein

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00:00:51.600 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:56.580 Well, since the beginning of the Art of Manliness,

00:00:59.160 I've had at the top of the website, as a part of my header,

00:01:03.500 and he's also become basically an unofficial logo and mascot of the Art of Manliness,

00:01:08.000 it's a bare-chested, mustached, bare-knuckle boxer.

00:01:12.020 But that's not just any random 19th century bare-knuckle boxer.

00:01:15.360 That is John L. Sullivan, one of the greatest boxers in the history of the sport.

00:01:20.200 He was the last bare-knuckle champion,

00:01:21.980 and he was also a gloved boxing champion.

00:01:26.500 He only lost once in his storied career.

00:01:30.260 And besides being a fantastic boxer,

00:01:32.820 the guy was just larger than life,

00:01:35.180 just a character, just full of, like, virile masculine energy.

00:01:40.020 And at one time, during the 19th century,

00:01:43.140 he was considered, like, the world's most famous person.

00:01:45.640 He was America's first sports hero.

00:01:48.840 The interesting thing about John L. Sullivan,

00:01:50.540 despite his influence on the sport of boxing,

00:01:52.800 despite his celebrity in the 19th century,

00:01:55.980 there's really not that much out there about the man and his life.

00:02:00.020 So I was really excited to learn about a new biography

00:02:02.740 that just came out about John L. Sullivan.

00:02:05.100 It's written by Christopher Klein.

00:02:06.880 The name of the book is Strong Boy,

00:02:09.420 The Life and Times of John L. Sullivan, America's First Sports Hero.

00:02:13.700 We're going to talk to him about his book.

00:02:15.480 We're going to talk to him about the life of John L. Sullivan.

00:02:17.340 We're going to talk about his storied boxing career,

00:02:19.920 but we're also going to talk about his deep personal flaws.

00:02:24.260 The man was a very complicated, complex figure.

00:02:29.100 We're going to talk about his personal flaws,

00:02:31.020 his eventual triumph over those flaws,

00:02:33.140 and we're going to talk about John L. Sullivan's lasting legacy

00:02:36.840 on the sport of boxing,

00:02:38.340 but as well as masculinity and manhood in America today.

00:02:42.580 Really interesting podcast, so stay tuned.

00:02:47.340 All right, Chris, welcome to the show.

00:02:50.420 Thanks, Brett.

00:02:51.220 Okay, so I'm really excited about your book,

00:02:54.700 John L. Sullivan, The Strong Boy of Boston,

00:02:57.600 because he's the guy that,

00:02:59.800 it's sort of like the unofficial mascot of the art of manliness.

00:03:02.760 He's that old-time boxer at the top of our website,

00:03:05.260 and as I wanted to learn more about him and his life,

00:03:10.160 I was surprised how very little there is out there

00:03:14.100 about John L. Sullivan and his career and his life,

00:03:17.440 and I'm surprised because he was a huge celebrity,

00:03:20.080 and he really changed the sport of boxing.

00:03:23.520 Why do you think there's so little about John L. Sullivan,

00:03:26.040 and why did you decide to write his biography?

00:03:29.620 Well, the last major biography of Sullivan

00:03:31.860 was done about 25 years ago,

00:03:34.480 and I think part of the reason one hasn't been done since then

00:03:37.680 is that boxing is becoming a bit of a dying sport.

00:03:42.700 It seems to live on in movies and books

00:03:45.740 more so than actually in the ring,

00:03:48.020 and I think that generation of people

00:03:50.160 who heard stories about Sullivan from their parents

00:03:53.060 have passed along as well in the last quarter century.

00:03:57.140 But I researched Sullivan for my last book,

00:04:00.820 and what really drew me into him

00:04:02.560 was being a Boston guy.

00:04:05.240 It was his Boston connection.

00:04:06.540 He was born in the South End of Boston,

00:04:08.500 and his nickname was the Boston Strong Boy.

00:04:11.780 He was an Irish-American hero,

00:04:13.640 and being an Irish-American, that intrigued me.

00:04:16.120 And just finding out what a colorful figure he was,

00:04:19.060 I thought, you know, what a fun subject

00:04:21.340 it would be for a biography.

00:04:23.960 And the more I researched about Sullivan,

00:04:27.640 the more I learned just what an important figure he is

00:04:30.520 in the American culture.

00:04:31.900 You know, he is the first sports superstar.

00:04:34.300 He's the first Irish-American icon.

00:04:37.360 And, you know, we may think of him

00:04:39.140 as this sepia-tone relic,

00:04:40.940 but really, he's very much a trailblazer

00:04:43.800 for the modern age in which we live.

00:04:45.940 So, you know, just seeing how important he is

00:04:48.980 for how we live our lives

00:04:50.860 and how sports is such a central pillar

00:04:53.840 of American culture today,

00:04:55.200 I really thought it was time

00:04:56.760 to freshen up the story.

00:04:59.080 And, of course, you know,

00:05:00.300 in the last couple of decades

00:05:01.980 with the rise of the Internet,

00:05:03.240 we now have these great tools at our hands

00:05:05.460 to be able to go back.

00:05:06.780 And even though a lot hasn't been written

00:05:08.940 about Sullivan maybe in the last 20 years,

00:05:10.700 there are tens of thousands of articles

00:05:14.360 that were written about him during his lifetime,

00:05:16.100 and now, you know, you can sort of research that

00:05:18.560 right from your desktop

00:05:20.700 going through all these old-time newspapers.

00:05:23.160 So, you know, it's a benefit that we have

00:05:26.120 in terms of doing the research

00:05:27.420 now that you couldn't 20, 25 years ago.

00:05:30.640 Yeah, that was the thing that struck me

00:05:32.100 about the book as I was reading about his life.

00:05:35.700 You know, he was a larger-than-life character,

00:05:38.200 very colorful, complicated,

00:05:41.480 but his story is sort of like,

00:05:44.240 it was so, it was intertwined with, like,

00:05:46.160 the rise of modern America.

00:05:48.500 Yeah.

00:05:49.100 With the rise of sports that, you know,

00:05:50.860 he was living in a time when baseball

00:05:52.700 and football and boxing were becoming

00:05:54.660 national pastimes in America.

00:05:57.120 He was living in a time when mass consumerism

00:05:59.960 was coming alive,

00:06:01.000 and he took advantage of that.

00:06:02.660 He was around when the mass press,

00:06:05.180 as we know it today, came around.

00:06:07.880 And so it was just interesting to see

00:06:09.180 how John L. Sullivan intersect,

00:06:10.780 his life intersected with all these different aspects

00:06:13.160 of American history at the same time.

00:06:16.620 Yeah, exactly.

00:06:18.020 And I'm not really much of a boxing fan, per se.

00:06:21.320 And, you know, I wasn't really interested

00:06:23.400 in writing a boxing book.

00:06:25.480 But what I was interested in doing

00:06:28.200 was using Sullivan as sort of,

00:06:29.880 you know, a linchpin to talk about

00:06:33.340 these different movements that were occurring

00:06:38.000 in American history,

00:06:38.920 when you talk about the rise of celebrity culture

00:06:41.060 and the immigration into America

00:06:42.600 and sort of the gilded age

00:06:44.780 with the wealthy and the downtrodden

00:06:46.460 and, you know, how that might reflect

00:06:48.220 on current times as well.

00:06:50.180 So, you know, it was a great way

00:06:52.400 to sort of get in and delve into

00:06:54.200 all these different aspects of American history

00:06:56.400 and American culture that, you know,

00:06:57.920 still impact us today.

00:06:59.080 So let's talk about, you know,

00:07:01.480 you didn't set out to write a boxing book,

00:07:02.940 but boxing looms large in the story.

00:07:07.220 I guess what I got from your book

00:07:08.880 when I was reading it,

00:07:09.480 there was boxing before John L. Sullivan

00:07:11.340 and there was boxing after John L. Sullivan.

00:07:13.860 Can you talk about the state of boxing

00:07:15.420 when John L. Sullivan came to,

00:07:17.640 I guess, came to power?

00:07:18.800 What was it like before?

00:07:20.500 And what was it like after he became a celebrity?

00:07:24.080 So before Sullivan,

00:07:25.900 boxing is completely different

00:07:27.320 than what we think of today

00:07:28.320 in terms of the modern sport.

00:07:29.700 It's really a bare-knuckled affair.

00:07:31.820 So these guys were fighting

00:07:32.920 under what was called

00:07:34.180 the London Prize Ring rules.

00:07:36.540 So you would fight without gloves

00:07:38.920 and wrestling moves were legal.

00:07:41.920 You could certainly get in

00:07:43.720 a good amount of eye-gouging

00:07:46.620 and hair-pulling.

00:07:48.100 And so when you see these guys

00:07:49.520 with these flowing handlebar mustaches,

00:07:51.560 they didn't wear those into the ring

00:07:53.140 and they cut their hair really closely too

00:07:56.180 because your opponent could very well

00:07:57.960 just grab a hold of your hair

00:07:59.540 and get in a couple of good shots

00:08:01.460 if you were down on the ground.

00:08:03.480 And rounds would last

00:08:04.480 as long as one of the fighters

00:08:06.240 was on his feet.

00:08:07.400 Once he hit the ground,

00:08:08.320 that would be the end of a round.

00:08:10.020 So rounds could last three seconds,

00:08:11.760 they could last 35 minutes,

00:08:13.900 and fights would go on

00:08:15.380 until literally one fighter

00:08:16.900 just couldn't go on any further.

00:08:18.660 And it was such a brutal affair

00:08:20.980 and sort of awash and corruption

00:08:23.480 and gambling

00:08:24.140 that it was outlawed

00:08:25.520 just about everywhere in America.

00:08:27.900 So whenever these bare-knuckled fights

00:08:30.860 would take place,

00:08:31.780 it was very much a cat-and-a-mouse game

00:08:33.500 between the boxers and the fans

00:08:35.140 and the authorities

00:08:36.060 to try to elude any sort of interference

00:08:38.780 from the authorities.

00:08:40.240 So these fights would take place

00:08:42.340 in the back rooms of saloons,

00:08:44.100 or they might find secluded islands,

00:08:47.580 the backwoods,

00:08:48.860 or places that these fighters

00:08:50.820 would commonly stage their prize fights.

00:08:54.940 And when Sullivan comes along,

00:08:57.000 he really insists on fighting

00:08:59.100 with the new rules

00:09:00.420 that were being implemented then

00:09:02.620 called the Marquis of Queensberry Rules.

00:09:04.740 And these are the more civilized rules of boxing,

00:09:07.520 the ones that we're more familiar with today,

00:09:09.360 where rounds are timed

00:09:10.720 to last three minutes.

00:09:12.900 The fights would be done with gloves.

00:09:16.420 There would be no wrestling

00:09:17.460 that would be involved.

00:09:18.700 So it was really, you know,

00:09:21.500 really a punching contest

00:09:24.640 between the two fighters.

00:09:26.720 And even though we think of Sullivan

00:09:28.260 as being this bare-knuckled boxer,

00:09:29.940 he only fights three times,

00:09:31.420 three championship fights

00:09:32.440 with his bare fists.

00:09:33.820 And by insisting on fighting

00:09:35.540 his opponents with gloves

00:09:36.840 and with the Marquis of Queensberry Rules,

00:09:38.640 by the end of his career,

00:09:39.860 he fights in the first championship fight

00:09:43.980 that was done with gloves.

00:09:45.180 And ever since then,

00:09:46.220 every fight has been done

00:09:47.620 with gloves on the hands.

00:09:49.980 So, you know,

00:09:51.280 he is not necessarily

00:09:53.080 just the last of the bare-knuckle boxers.

00:09:55.140 He's the first real modern boxing champion

00:09:57.380 that we have.

00:09:58.000 And he did a lot

00:09:59.500 to legitimize the sport,

00:10:00.900 it seems.

00:10:02.620 Yeah, yeah.

00:10:03.320 And because by insisting

00:10:05.140 on fighting those gloves

00:10:06.120 it made it more socially acceptable

00:10:07.860 and that form of boxing

00:10:09.460 was legal as well.

00:10:12.020 So by the end of his career,

00:10:13.240 they no longer have to,

00:10:14.520 you know,

00:10:15.140 try to find some place

00:10:16.200 in the backwoods

00:10:16.860 to have their championship fight.

00:10:18.020 His last fight that he has

00:10:19.560 is in a 10,000-seat

00:10:21.540 electrically lit arena

00:10:22.940 in downtown New Orleans

00:10:24.700 where the media is there

00:10:26.880 with the telegraphs,

00:10:28.040 you know,

00:10:28.300 at ringside

00:10:29.060 sending results

00:10:29.840 throughout the country.

00:10:32.480 And, you know,

00:10:33.800 it's completely out in the open

00:10:35.600 and legal,

00:10:36.280 very much similar

00:10:37.160 to what you would find

00:10:38.440 in Las Vegas,

00:10:39.260 you know,

00:10:39.540 today for a big prize fight.

00:10:41.400 What I found,

00:10:41.760 one of the things

00:10:42.620 I found interesting

00:10:43.220 was like boxing,

00:10:45.440 it was sort of like a,

00:10:46.000 boxing was sort of like

00:10:47.080 in a legal limbo

00:10:48.220 at the time.

00:10:48.880 Like,

00:10:49.160 it was okay for exhibitions.

00:10:50.440 Like,

00:10:50.700 you can do exhibitions

00:10:51.620 to display the manly art,

00:10:53.100 right?

00:10:53.840 But if it,

00:10:55.180 if there was like,

00:10:56.380 it was known

00:10:56.780 that there was money

00:10:57.360 being bad

00:10:57.920 or if it got too violent,

00:10:59.000 the police would,

00:10:59.700 okay, no,

00:11:00.160 stop it.

00:11:00.560 This is not,

00:11:01.140 no longer an exhibition.

00:11:02.620 We're going to put a stop to this.

00:11:04.960 Yeah,

00:11:05.340 it was sort of in that limbo

00:11:06.460 with a lot of different

00:11:07.680 aspects of morality

00:11:09.540 during the Gilded Age,

00:11:10.920 you know,

00:11:11.180 where it was supposed

00:11:13.080 to be a prim and proper

00:11:14.040 Victorian society,

00:11:15.440 but certainly,

00:11:16.620 you know,

00:11:17.520 corruption,

00:11:18.420 gambling,

00:11:19.160 prostitution

00:11:19.700 were all rampant behaviors

00:11:21.160 and boxing was sort of

00:11:22.940 in that limbo as well

00:11:24.220 where,

00:11:24.840 yeah,

00:11:26.160 you could stage

00:11:27.360 these four-round exhibitions

00:11:29.020 against another opponent

00:11:30.640 under the guise

00:11:32.180 of being these

00:11:32.760 scientific exhibitions,

00:11:34.200 but everyone knew

00:11:35.300 that these were prize fights.

00:11:36.600 You know,

00:11:36.840 money was being gambled on it,

00:11:38.240 the fans were coming

00:11:38.960 to see someone

00:11:39.500 get knocked out, 0.92

00:11:40.380 and whether

00:11:42.180 that would happen

00:11:43.200 or not

00:11:43.580 often depended on

00:11:44.960 whoever was in,

00:11:48.060 you know,

00:11:48.520 sitting in City Hall

00:11:49.480 and in charge of

00:11:50.620 the police

00:11:52.780 in terms of

00:11:53.440 how quickly

00:11:54.040 they would enter the ring

00:11:55.080 to stop a fight.

00:11:56.060 You know,

00:11:56.200 they might get in there

00:11:57.600 at the first sign

00:11:58.280 of someone taking a big hit

00:12:00.000 or they just might wait

00:12:01.080 until someone was knocked out.

00:12:02.280 So you really never knew

00:12:03.800 what was going to happen

00:12:04.620 when you showed up

00:12:05.300 at one of these

00:12:05.740 boxing exhibitions.

00:12:07.480 Not only what was going

00:12:08.360 to happen between

00:12:08.960 the two fighters

00:12:09.680 or whether it was

00:12:10.740 whether the police

00:12:11.860 might get into the ring

00:12:13.140 at any moment

00:12:13.620 to stop the fight too.

00:12:16.000 Okay,

00:12:16.120 so John L. Sullivan,

00:12:17.000 he was a formidable fighter.

00:12:19.040 I think he only lost once,

00:12:21.000 right?

00:12:21.600 Like one...

00:12:22.920 Yeah,

00:12:23.180 the one big fight

00:12:23.880 was the last,

00:12:24.840 his last championship fight

00:12:26.180 against Corbett

00:12:26.780 was really the only defeat

00:12:28.540 that he really ever suffered

00:12:29.640 in the ring.

00:12:30.460 And he,

00:12:31.600 like so he had over

00:12:33.360 like 200 victories

00:12:34.340 in a 10-year stretch.

00:12:35.460 I mean,

00:12:35.600 it's something unheard of

00:12:36.640 today.

00:12:38.240 Okay,

00:12:38.740 what made him

00:12:39.480 such a great fighter?

00:12:40.420 I mean,

00:12:40.640 was he scientific

00:12:42.240 about his fighting?

00:12:43.260 Was he just

00:12:43.880 a one-trick pony

00:12:45.220 and just went in

00:12:45.920 and was just brutal with him?

00:12:47.500 What made him

00:12:47.960 such a great fighter?

00:12:49.240 It was a combination

00:12:50.200 of speed and power.

00:12:53.760 He was not

00:12:54.700 a classically trained boxer.

00:12:56.100 He never took

00:12:56.540 a boxing lesson

00:12:57.340 in his life.

00:12:59.060 That being said,

00:13:00.000 he did think about,

00:13:01.180 you know,

00:13:01.400 the scientific points

00:13:03.060 of boxing

00:13:03.640 and claimed that,

00:13:05.960 you know,

00:13:06.180 he sort of studied up on it

00:13:08.920 and determined

00:13:09.420 that he knew precisely

00:13:10.560 the right point

00:13:11.540 on an opponent's jaw

00:13:12.720 to hit him

00:13:13.860 to knock him out.

00:13:14.900 So,

00:13:15.240 you know,

00:13:15.440 he did think of it

00:13:16.260 a bit in a scientific manner,

00:13:17.640 but he certainly

00:13:18.620 wasn't formally trained

00:13:20.180 or had any sort of lessons.

00:13:21.540 It really was

00:13:22.380 that he just had

00:13:24.080 such a powerful right

00:13:26.080 that he could

00:13:26.820 hit his opponents with

00:13:28.080 and he could deliver it

00:13:29.260 really quickly.

00:13:30.360 He could just

00:13:30.960 get his punches

00:13:31.860 off so quickly

00:13:33.300 and it said

00:13:33.800 that he pounced

00:13:34.420 around the ring

00:13:35.300 like a tiger

00:13:35.980 that that combination

00:13:38.200 of the speed

00:13:39.060 and power

00:13:39.520 would often

00:13:40.120 overwhelm opponents.

00:13:41.880 And then,

00:13:42.420 after he became champion,

00:13:43.680 really,

00:13:44.080 the force of his personality

00:13:45.440 tended to intimidate

00:13:46.660 his opponents, too.

00:13:47.660 And it was said

00:13:48.140 that he often won

00:13:49.740 half his fights

00:13:51.120 just by getting

00:13:52.320 into the ring

00:13:52.900 and staring down

00:13:53.660 his opponent.

00:13:54.260 that it tended

00:13:55.760 to intimidate him

00:13:56.620 so much

00:13:57.120 that he really had

00:13:58.120 that advantage,

00:13:59.500 that psychological

00:13:59.980 advantage

00:14:00.660 every time he stepped

00:14:01.400 into the ring.

00:14:04.460 So,

00:14:05.260 as we talked about

00:14:06.540 in the introduction

00:14:07.240 of the podcast,

00:14:09.740 John O'Sullivan

00:14:10.260 came to rise

00:14:11.680 the same time

00:14:12.740 when we had

00:14:13.960 the rise of

00:14:14.800 mass media.

00:14:16.660 There's all these

00:14:17.180 newspapers,

00:14:17.980 these sports dailies

00:14:18.980 were coming to,

00:14:19.920 I guess,

00:14:21.440 power.

00:14:22.340 And one of the most

00:14:23.000 popular sports dailies

00:14:24.780 amongst bachelors

00:14:26.040 in America

00:14:26.500 at the time

00:14:27.040 was the National

00:14:27.960 Police Gazette.

00:14:29.900 This is a magazine

00:14:31.000 we've talked before

00:14:31.720 about on the site.

00:14:33.900 And it's just a,

00:14:34.860 can you talk a little bit

00:14:35.400 about the National

00:14:35.840 Police Gazette

00:14:36.320 and what effect

00:14:36.900 it had on boxing?

00:14:37.760 And also about

00:14:38.560 the owner of the Gazette

00:14:39.820 at this time.

00:14:40.480 It's Richard K. Fox,

00:14:42.680 another very larger

00:14:44.040 than life character.

00:14:45.540 He had a rivalry

00:14:46.600 between John O'Sullivan

00:14:47.860 and it seems like

00:14:49.100 that rivalry

00:14:49.800 between Sullivan

00:14:50.640 and Fox

00:14:51.340 really fueled

00:14:52.400 the popularity

00:14:53.120 of boxing.

00:14:54.200 So talk a little bit

00:14:54.780 about the National

00:14:55.320 Police Gazette

00:14:55.960 and talk about

00:14:57.260 Richard K. Fox

00:14:58.740 and Sullivan.

00:15:00.280 The National Police

00:15:01.220 is the National

00:15:04.200 Enquirer of its day.

00:15:05.980 It was a weekly

00:15:06.920 tabloid.

00:15:08.300 It printed

00:15:08.980 salacious stories

00:15:10.160 about sex

00:15:12.300 and violence

00:15:12.980 and if it could

00:15:13.420 wrap the two

00:15:14.040 into a story

00:15:15.020 so much the better.

00:15:16.080 So it covered

00:15:18.100 Wild West shootouts

00:15:19.420 and Native American

00:15:20.440 raids and lynchings

00:15:22.000 and often stories

00:15:23.660 about damsels

00:15:25.400 in distress

00:15:26.060 who might be

00:15:27.480 shooting guns

00:15:28.640 at jilted lovers

00:15:29.600 and there were

00:15:30.720 these elaborate

00:15:31.380 woodcut illustrations

00:15:32.760 inside too

00:15:33.760 that often depicted

00:15:35.840 these violent episodes

00:15:38.300 or women showing

00:15:39.820 a scandalous amount

00:15:41.420 of maybe their shoulders

00:15:42.480 or their ankles

00:15:43.240 as well.

00:15:43.860 And so it was

00:15:45.720 a very salacious

00:15:46.640 publication

00:15:47.500 and its proprietor

00:15:49.260 Richard K. Fox

00:15:50.260 he also saw

00:15:52.940 the growing interest

00:15:54.380 in sports

00:15:54.960 in America.

00:15:56.020 So he added sports

00:15:58.040 into the mix

00:15:58.960 of the stories

00:15:59.840 about sex

00:16:00.560 and violence

00:16:01.300 and certainly

00:16:01.920 boxing very much

00:16:03.400 fit in with

00:16:04.140 the violence

00:16:05.200 that he was covering

00:16:06.140 in America

00:16:07.000 and he becomes

00:16:08.580 sort of an important

00:16:09.380 figure in boxing.

00:16:10.500 He starts handing out

00:16:11.320 championship belts

00:16:12.300 and trophies.

00:16:14.180 He sets weight classes

00:16:15.440 and inside the pages

00:16:16.860 of the National Police

00:16:17.700 Gazette

00:16:18.120 he would print challenges

00:16:19.800 from one fighter

00:16:20.600 to another.

00:16:21.420 So in that way

00:16:22.420 Fox was sort of

00:16:23.240 part Rupert Murdoch

00:16:24.400 part Don King.

00:16:26.260 He's very much

00:16:27.480 a powerful figure

00:16:28.340 in boxing

00:16:28.800 when Sullivan

00:16:29.360 comes along

00:16:30.080 and there's

00:16:31.460 an apocryphal story

00:16:32.640 that the two

00:16:33.640 are sitting inside

00:16:35.220 Harry Hill's

00:16:36.040 Gentleman Theater

00:16:36.760 one of the most famous

00:16:38.280 haunts in New York

00:16:40.000 in 1881

00:16:41.980 a couple days

00:16:43.080 after Sullivan

00:16:44.460 won a big match

00:16:45.780 on the stage

00:16:46.420 inside Harry Hills

00:16:47.560 and Fox sees

00:16:49.480 Sullivan holding court

00:16:51.100 and sends word

00:16:51.860 to a waiter

00:16:52.560 to have Sullivan

00:16:53.260 come over

00:16:53.740 to his table

00:16:54.420 and according

00:16:56.060 to the legend

00:16:56.680 Sullivan roars

00:16:58.140 back at the waiter

00:16:58.980 that it's no farther

00:17:00.240 from him to me

00:17:02.680 than me to him

00:17:03.560 if Fox wants

00:17:04.420 to see me

00:17:04.860 he can come over

00:17:05.560 to me

00:17:05.980 and that supposedly

00:17:08.000 is a story

00:17:08.760 that launches

00:17:09.640 the dislike

00:17:10.800 of these two guys

00:17:12.160 that last

00:17:12.660 for the better

00:17:13.560 part of Sullivan's

00:17:14.640 career

00:17:15.060 now like I said

00:17:16.460 that story

00:17:17.020 is probably apocryphal

00:17:18.080 but we do know

00:17:18.840 that the two men

00:17:19.560 did meet in New York

00:17:20.620 around that time period

00:17:21.820 and we do know

00:17:23.520 that they did take

00:17:24.200 an instant dislike

00:17:25.060 to each other

00:17:25.640 probably because

00:17:26.280 they were just

00:17:26.680 very similar personalities

00:17:28.080 they both

00:17:28.680 were Irish Americans

00:17:30.960 they were both

00:17:31.820 very stubborn

00:17:33.140 bullheaded

00:17:33.820 successful

00:17:34.500 driven men

00:17:35.620 Fox was used

00:17:37.180 to sort of

00:17:37.620 getting his way

00:17:38.200 by the power

00:17:38.820 of the pen

00:17:39.340 and Sullivan

00:17:39.860 his way

00:17:40.660 by the power

00:17:41.280 of the fist

00:17:41.840 and they

00:17:42.860 they were sort

00:17:43.540 of like two

00:17:44.040 magnets

00:17:44.460 with the same

00:17:45.040 polarity

00:17:45.580 so similar

00:17:46.320 that they were

00:17:46.980 just going

00:17:47.680 to repel

00:17:48.260 whenever they

00:17:48.820 got together

00:17:49.520 so from

00:17:51.240 that first

00:17:52.460 meeting that

00:17:52.860 they had

00:17:53.260 in New York

00:17:53.780 Fox then

00:17:54.780 he literally

00:17:55.680 searched the

00:17:56.180 ends of the

00:17:56.580 earth to try

00:17:57.040 to find

00:17:57.480 opponents

00:17:58.000 to take

00:17:58.680 out Sullivan

00:17:59.260 he went

00:17:59.800 to

00:18:00.160 he imported

00:18:01.300 fighters

00:18:01.660 from England

00:18:02.320 he imported

00:18:03.120 a fighter

00:18:03.780 all the way

00:18:04.240 from New Zealand

00:18:05.040 and he never

00:18:06.780 had any luck

00:18:07.720 getting Sullivan

00:18:09.580 getting someone

00:18:10.720 to knock out

00:18:11.500 Sullivan

00:18:11.920 but despite

00:18:14.140 how much

00:18:14.520 they hated

00:18:14.860 each other

00:18:15.360 it was a

00:18:16.820 very mutually

00:18:17.600 beneficial

00:18:18.180 hatred

00:18:18.560 because

00:18:19.160 with Fox's

00:18:21.660 newspaper

00:18:22.240 Sullivan

00:18:23.120 took on

00:18:24.080 the starring

00:18:24.520 role

00:18:24.880 and he sold

00:18:25.860 Fox

00:18:26.300 he sold

00:18:27.280 hundreds

00:18:27.580 of thousands

00:18:28.300 of newspapers

00:18:28.900 for Fox

00:18:29.580 and by

00:18:30.720 starring in

00:18:31.580 the Police

00:18:31.860 Gazette

00:18:32.240 Fox really

00:18:32.860 made Sullivan

00:18:33.800 a celebrity

00:18:34.460 too

00:18:34.960 so

00:18:35.320 the two

00:18:36.160 you know

00:18:36.660 as much

00:18:37.740 as they

00:18:38.000 disliked

00:18:38.500 each other

00:18:38.900 this rivalry

00:18:40.020 between the

00:18:41.580 two

00:18:41.820 really paid

00:18:42.740 big dividends

00:18:43.320 for both

00:18:43.740 of them

00:18:44.400 so as we

00:18:45.680 talked before

00:18:46.380 John L. Sullivan

00:18:47.180 is basically

00:18:48.540 America's

00:18:49.680 and you could

00:18:51.280 even argue

00:18:51.620 the world's

00:18:52.340 first superstar

00:18:53.340 athlete

00:18:53.900 I mean he's

00:18:54.680 the first

00:18:54.980 athlete to

00:18:55.540 ever earn

00:18:55.940 a million

00:18:56.340 dollars

00:18:56.820 but what's

00:18:59.500 interesting

00:18:59.660 I found it

00:19:00.100 fascinating about

00:19:00.600 him he sort

00:19:00.960 of laid the

00:19:01.500 groundwork of

00:19:02.300 what superstar

00:19:03.040 athletes are

00:19:03.760 supposed to

00:19:04.560 do right

00:19:05.340 sort of like

00:19:05.860 laid the

00:19:06.160 archetype and

00:19:07.040 one of the

00:19:07.500 interesting things

00:19:07.900 I found about

00:19:08.520 him out about

00:19:09.320 John L. Sullivan

00:19:09.880 in your book

00:19:10.320 was that he

00:19:11.180 parlayed his

00:19:11.860 fame in

00:19:12.680 boxing to

00:19:13.360 other arenas

00:19:14.260 in the

00:19:14.500 entertainment

00:19:14.940 arena he

00:19:16.620 talked a little

00:19:16.960 about some

00:19:17.380 of Sullivan's

00:19:18.940 I guess exploits

00:19:20.320 and other

00:19:21.240 areas of the

00:19:22.560 entertainment

00:19:22.880 industry

00:19:23.340 yeah I

00:19:24.260 found this

00:19:25.200 really fascinating

00:19:25.880 too because it

00:19:26.520 really did

00:19:26.980 echo you know

00:19:28.020 what we sort

00:19:28.780 of see with

00:19:29.280 modern celebrities

00:19:30.100 modern sports

00:19:31.420 stars to sort

00:19:32.100 of blur the

00:19:33.220 lines of the

00:19:34.000 different arenas

00:19:34.680 of celebrity

00:19:35.260 and this

00:19:37.000 started off

00:19:37.380 pretty early

00:19:37.900 in Sullivan's

00:19:38.820 championship

00:19:39.320 range so

00:19:40.140 a couple

00:19:41.840 years after

00:19:42.480 he was

00:19:42.740 champion he

00:19:43.640 signed on

00:19:44.540 to a

00:19:46.220 living

00:19:47.880 statuary

00:19:48.580 group so

00:19:49.500 he would

00:19:50.160 travel around

00:19:51.120 the country

00:19:51.800 appearing on

00:19:52.880 different stages

00:19:53.600 he would be

00:19:55.560 covered in

00:19:56.120 this white

00:19:56.560 powder maybe

00:19:58.160 wearing just

00:19:58.960 skin tight

00:20:00.360 tights on

00:20:01.020 him and

00:20:01.880 then he

00:20:02.220 would sort

00:20:02.680 of take

00:20:03.100 these different

00:20:03.620 poses in

00:20:04.680 the forms

00:20:05.280 of Greek

00:20:06.700 and Roman

00:20:07.260 sculptures

00:20:08.060 it was called

00:20:09.120 living statuary

00:20:10.180 and he sold

00:20:11.980 out audiences

00:20:12.700 you know just

00:20:13.720 by people who

00:20:14.300 wanted to come

00:20:14.800 in and see

00:20:15.380 him do these

00:20:16.380 24 different

00:20:17.360 poses on

00:20:18.080 stage you

00:20:19.100 know they

00:20:19.260 didn't really

00:20:19.620 care about

00:20:20.240 seeing John

00:20:20.760 L. Sullivan

00:20:21.180 a boxer

00:20:21.680 they just

00:20:22.040 want to be

00:20:22.460 John L. Sullivan

00:20:23.320 in the flesh

00:20:24.960 and that's

00:20:26.860 where it

00:20:27.100 launches this

00:20:27.800 vaudeville career

00:20:28.660 that he has

00:20:29.320 for the

00:20:29.640 better part

00:20:30.160 of 20

00:20:30.840 years and

00:20:31.680 he goes on

00:20:34.200 to star in

00:20:35.360 different theatrical

00:20:36.200 productions

00:20:37.200 where in his

00:20:38.860 career

00:20:39.440 they

00:20:40.220 playwright

00:20:42.200 pens a play

00:20:44.080 specifically for

00:20:45.020 him with him

00:20:45.600 in a starring

00:20:46.080 role called

00:20:46.800 Honest Hearts

00:20:47.860 and Willing

00:20:48.340 Hands and he

00:20:50.100 toured around

00:20:50.740 the country

00:20:51.260 six seven

00:20:52.060 months appearing

00:20:52.760 on stage in

00:20:53.560 these plays

00:20:54.180 where you

00:20:55.080 know he

00:20:55.240 was an

00:20:56.580 okay actor

00:20:57.600 and at the

00:20:59.500 end of the

00:21:00.180 climax of each

00:21:01.320 play he'd get

00:21:02.340 into the ring

00:21:02.900 for a four

00:21:03.500 round exhibition

00:21:04.380 and you know

00:21:07.220 he sold out

00:21:08.080 theaters around

00:21:09.240 the country

00:21:09.640 doing these

00:21:10.120 performances

00:21:10.660 so he each

00:21:12.180 year did

00:21:12.720 different plays

00:21:13.820 one year he

00:21:14.400 even appeared

00:21:14.960 as Simon

00:21:15.620 Legree and

00:21:16.120 Uncle Tom's

00:21:16.760 Cabin

00:21:17.200 one year he

00:21:18.240 went around

00:21:18.940 delivering monologues

00:21:20.340 and reciting

00:21:20.920 different poems

00:21:22.240 and he

00:21:23.960 also would

00:21:24.680 appear he

00:21:26.420 was hired by

00:21:27.020 professional

00:21:27.480 baseball teams

00:21:28.340 to come and

00:21:29.240 pitch exhibition

00:21:29.920 games for them

00:21:30.660 or to umpire

00:21:31.640 baseball games

00:21:32.440 and they'd get

00:21:33.020 seven eight

00:21:34.000 thousand people

00:21:34.660 would show up

00:21:35.200 to watch a

00:21:35.840 meaningless

00:21:36.140 baseball game

00:21:37.020 just to watch

00:21:37.860 Sullivan pitch

00:21:39.100 you know

00:21:39.500 it was really

00:21:43.420 interesting to

00:21:43.960 find how people

00:21:44.880 really just you

00:21:45.820 know they paid

00:21:46.340 good money

00:21:46.920 just to see

00:21:48.260 him in person

00:21:48.840 not necessarily

00:21:49.460 to see him

00:21:49.860 in the ring

00:21:50.320 also by the

00:21:51.700 strenuous life

00:21:52.340 the strenuous

00:21:52.700 life is an

00:21:53.020 online platform

00:21:53.640 that we created

00:21:54.340 they'll be put

00:21:54.800 into action all

00:21:55.320 the things we've

00:21:55.800 been writing about

00:21:56.480 in the art of

00:21:56.900 manliness for the

00:21:57.380 past 11 years

00:21:58.380 now and talking

00:21:59.200 about on the

00:21:59.660 podcast and we've

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00:22:00.980 ways first we

00:22:01.740 created a series

00:22:02.280 of 50 different

00:22:02.960 badges based

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00:22:54.020 now back to the show

00:22:55.140 yeah I just found that

00:22:56.440 just completely

00:22:57.720 fascinating and it

00:22:58.720 just I think you did a

00:22:59.860 good job capturing sort

00:23:01.280 of the the celebrity

00:23:02.600 the birth of celebrity

00:23:04.040 mania in America yeah

00:23:05.800 and it's it's amazing

00:23:07.020 people think about how

00:23:08.440 our celebrity obsession

00:23:09.960 today is something new

00:23:11.180 and it's been around for

00:23:12.520 over a hundred years you

00:23:13.700 know it's just it's

00:23:14.680 crazy

00:23:15.200 so let's talk so

00:23:18.200 John O'Sullivan

00:23:18.740 without a doubt one

00:23:20.220 of the best fighters

00:23:21.020 in the history of

00:23:22.100 boxing but the man

00:23:24.280 had a lot of personal

00:23:27.220 flaws like big big time

00:23:28.900 flaws and the one that

00:23:31.500 haunted him for most of

00:23:32.600 his career was his

00:23:34.280 alcoholism his drinking

00:23:36.000 can you talk a little

00:23:37.220 bit about John O'Sullivan's

00:23:38.720 battle with the bottle and

00:23:40.240 how that affected his

00:23:41.920 personal life and how did

00:23:43.120 it affect his career

00:23:43.920 yeah I mean it appears

00:23:47.040 that Sullivan was not a

00:23:49.080 really big drinker until

00:23:50.280 he won the championship

00:23:51.860 in 1882 and then you

00:23:53.620 know he's got people who

00:23:54.540 are you know always

00:23:55.540 wanting to buy him

00:23:56.340 drinks and he opens up

00:23:58.200 his own saloon in

00:23:59.380 Boston and really in

00:24:02.380 short order he really

00:24:03.980 develops a really bad

00:24:06.000 drinking problem that

00:24:07.080 really does take its

00:24:08.240 toll on him and he

00:24:09.540 suffers through some very

00:24:10.800 bad illnesses after some

00:24:12.980 some drunken vendors that

00:24:14.620 he goes on a couple

00:24:15.520 times he summoned a

00:24:18.460 priest to his bedside to

00:24:19.880 deliver last rites one

00:24:22.100 illness in particular he

00:24:23.600 dropped 60 pounds and was

00:24:25.140 thought to really be near

00:24:26.400 death and they were

00:24:27.080 sending out bulletins by

00:24:28.360 the hour in terms of how

00:24:30.240 he was faring these

00:24:32.480 drunken vendors got him

00:24:33.900 into countless run-ins with

00:24:35.600 the law where he get into

00:24:36.620 barroom brawls or even one

00:24:38.180 time he was arrested for

00:24:40.860 punching his horse out on

00:24:43.100 one of the streets in

00:24:43.960 Boston in a breakup of his

00:24:49.300 marriage he becomes a very

00:24:52.320 terrible alcoholic and comes

00:24:54.040 home and he's drunk in

00:24:55.480 states and it appears that he

00:24:59.620 took his work home with him

00:25:01.320 and beat his wife on a

00:25:02.880 number of different

00:25:03.580 occasions and in his boxing

00:25:07.220 career took its impact too

00:25:08.860 he showed up for one fight at

00:25:10.660 Madison Square Garden you

00:25:12.880 know the place is sold out

00:25:13.920 waiting for him to come into

00:25:14.880 the ring all of a sudden he

00:25:15.720 shows up stumbling drunk into

00:25:18.540 the ring and telling him that

00:25:19.760 you know he has a doctor's

00:25:21.380 note that says he's too sick

00:25:22.680 to go in to fight but you

00:25:24.020 know everyone could just

00:25:25.180 visibly see that he was

00:25:26.780 terribly inebriated inside the

00:25:29.860 ring so you know it took

00:25:31.260 some shots to his reputation

00:25:32.600 it led to breakups with

00:25:33.800 managers led to to break up

00:25:35.260 with his marriage and you

00:25:37.840 know it was a big problem

00:25:39.720 for him for 20 years and then

00:25:42.600 suddenly in 1905 according to

00:25:44.580 him he just calculated that he

00:25:47.560 had earned a million dollars

00:25:48.620 and spent half a million of it

00:25:50.120 on booze and decided to quit

00:25:52.220 cold turkey and you know it

00:25:54.780 appears that that was true

00:25:55.900 that you know somehow he was

00:25:58.620 able to just quit drinking just

00:26:00.960 like that and then later in

00:26:02.400 his life he became a temperance

00:26:03.960 speaker too so you know it was

00:26:07.000 sort of a redemptive moment for

00:26:08.520 him later in his life yeah I

00:26:10.300 thought I was I was glad to see

00:26:11.600 that because I've heard about

00:26:12.900 John L Sullivan's you know

00:26:14.620 drunkenness and his you know

00:26:16.540 wife beating and I was glad to 1.00

00:26:18.680 see he was able to turn around at

00:26:20.280 the end of his life yeah finally so

00:26:22.560 yeah it is it like you said it

00:26:23.760 you're the biography John L Sullivan

00:26:25.220 is very much like a redemption

00:26:26.880 story at its heart another big

00:26:31.200 flaw of John L Sullivan that lots

00:26:33.900 of other white men at the time had

00:26:36.740 during the 19th century was he was

00:26:38.720 a racist and I loved how you did a

00:26:42.260 good job explaining the the race

00:26:46.860 line in boxing which was white

00:26:49.220 fighters would not fight black 1.00

00:26:50.860 fighters and it was particularly

00:26:52.500 poignant with Irish American fighters

00:26:55.000 can you talk a little bit about the

00:26:57.180 race line in boxing at the time

00:26:58.520 yeah you know in the 1880s during

00:27:02.320 Sullivan's time boxing was actually

00:27:03.860 probably one of the more

00:27:05.860 integrated if not the most

00:27:07.020 integrated of sports in America

00:27:09.280 this is a time when you know

00:27:11.400 baseball is becoming segregated

00:27:13.340 until that would last for you know

00:27:15.100 60 years until the time of Jackie

00:27:16.780 Robinson but you would find white

00:27:19.820 fighters and black fighters in the

00:27:21.900 ring with one gigantic exception that

00:27:25.500 being for the championship bouts so

00:27:28.460 you know Sullivan certainly carried

00:27:30.560 the racial biases that many Irish

00:27:32.340 Americans of the day had to begin 0.99

00:27:34.200 with and then once he gets the

00:27:36.120 championship he really feels that it's

00:27:38.080 his duty to keep a black man from 1.00

00:27:39.820 ever wearing the championship belt so

00:27:42.280 he draws what he calls the color line

00:27:45.400 and refuses to fight any black fighters

00:27:48.580 once he became champion in the ring and

00:27:51.660 it appears that before he was champion

00:27:54.460 that there might have been some matches

00:27:56.100 that were set up and never happened but

00:27:58.220 the fact that the fact is that he never

00:28:01.580 once got into the ring with an African 1.00

00:28:04.220 American or any sort of any sort of black

00:28:07.000 fighter and later in his career in the

00:28:11.480 last couple of years there was a fighter

00:28:13.580 named Peter Jackson he was an aboriginal

00:28:16.240 fighter from Australia and he was certainly

00:28:19.880 among the handful of the top contenders

00:28:22.060 of the day in fact in 1891 he fought

00:28:25.560 Jim Corbett who would go on to defeat

00:28:28.520 Sullivan to a 61 round no contest so we

00:28:32.420 know that he was at least the match of

00:28:35.060 Corbett who would have who ends up

00:28:37.880 knocking out Sullivan so we know that

00:28:40.700 Jackson would at least have been a

00:28:42.180 formidable challenger to Sullivan in the

00:28:45.040 ring but he flatly when he invites in

00:28:48.920 1892 invite fighters to take him on he

00:28:52.840 specifically writes in his notice to the

00:28:54.920 press that he will not fight any Negro 1.00

00:28:57.360 fighters that would include Peter Jackson

00:28:59.540 so you know that certainly was among the

00:29:04.940 you know the dark episodes when you take a

00:29:07.480 look at the life of Sullivan so you just

00:29:10.560 mentioned James Corbett gentleman Jim he

00:29:13.220 was the fighter that finally defeated John

00:29:17.100 L Sullivan how was Corbett able to beat

00:29:20.820 him was he just a was he more scientific

00:29:23.260 fighter than Sullivan was Sullivan just out of

00:29:25.440 shape and just drunk what how did he

00:29:30.300 finally how did so how did Corbett beat

00:29:32.100 Sullivan sort of a combination of two

00:29:35.480 Corbett was a very different fighter and a very different personality from Sullivan now

00:29:41.680 Sullivan as I said never took a lesson in his life but

00:29:45.560 Corbett was a very technical very scientific fighter he had gone through a lot of training at the Olympic Club in San Francisco so he wasn't really a fighter who fought on instinct he really was an intellectual type of fighter and we talked about in the book that that Corbett and Sullivan actually fought in exhibition a couple years before they met for the championship

00:30:01.560 and even then according to Corbett he was sort of feeling out Sullivan and he would purposely put himself against the ropes to see how Sullivan would sort of give away his punches so you know he was thinking about fights round and round

00:30:31.560 Corbett was sort of viewed fight as a chess match.

00:30:37.120 Sullivan's approach to fighting was that he would just be like an elephant

00:30:40.460 that would come and just trample right over at the chessboard.

00:30:43.520 It was all about power and brawn and getting right on top of your opponent

00:30:47.580 right from the get-go, whereas Corbett's thinking three, four steps ahead.

00:30:52.280 So they did have these very different approaches,

00:30:55.320 and I think the scientific approach that Corbett brought into the ring

00:30:59.300 served him well in the fight.

00:31:02.080 But it was true that Sullivan comes into the ring not in his peak condition either.

00:31:07.080 He is 33 years old.

00:31:11.580 He had not fought in the ring in a championship fight for three years.

00:31:16.920 His training leading up to the fight was not all that rigorous.

00:31:21.320 He had all these other activities on the side.

00:31:24.700 So as he's training for the fight, he's also rehearsing for his new theatrical production.

00:31:29.300 And that's going to start in the weeks after the fight.

00:31:32.620 He's finishing up an autobiography.

00:31:35.360 So he's not throwing himself full throttle into the training.

00:31:39.660 And he's still a little bit out of shape when he shows up in the ring with Corbett

00:31:45.640 and manages to put on a good fight.

00:31:48.220 He hangs in there for the better part of an hour and 21 rounds.

00:31:51.000 But ultimately, Corbett is a younger, more in shape, more thoughtful fighter.

00:31:58.120 And I think that ultimately is the reason why he ends up emerging triumphant in that fight.

00:32:04.560 And what happened to Sullivan's career after the defeat?

00:32:08.040 Did he sort of put boxing on the back burner and devoted more time to his acting career

00:32:13.300 and his, I guess, just as a career as a celebrity?

00:32:15.840 What did he do with the rest of his life?

00:32:18.300 Yeah, I mean, he sort of becomes this professional celebrity.

00:32:21.940 So he does have this fallback option where he has been, at least for the three previous years,

00:32:28.200 been going around the country starring these theatrical productions.

00:32:31.580 And he continues to do that.

00:32:33.040 And, you know, he flirts every once in a while of getting back in the ring

00:32:38.000 and fighting in a big championship fight and every once in a while calls out these other fighters.

00:32:43.920 But, you know, he did not like training at all.

00:32:48.440 You know, he liked to indulge in food and drinking.

00:32:51.680 And he sort of threw himself into that big time, you know, after he lost to Corbett.

00:32:56.640 And, you know, I think he knew that he never was going to put the effort in to really get into the fighting shape that he wanted to be.

00:33:04.540 And so a lot of these challenges, I think, were a lot of bluster that came from him.

00:33:08.100 But he still did appear in the ring periodically.

00:33:11.580 He would fight in different exhibitions against fighters, mainly, you know, these weren't real fights.

00:33:20.360 You know, he was just getting into the ring for different charity events and touring around the country.

00:33:25.940 He actually toured with some of his former opponents, and they put on these different shows around the country.

00:33:33.660 So, you know, he kept in the boxing arena for a good almost 20 years after he lost that championship fight.

00:33:42.280 But, you know, he still was one of the more famous men in America, even after he was no longer the title holder,

00:33:48.300 because, you know, people just knew the great John L. and the Boston Strong Boy.

00:33:54.160 And he still was touring the country and showing up in towns, cities all around America.

00:34:00.380 So, you know, he really was just this professional celebrity there for a long time.

00:34:05.480 Yeah, I love there was a song, a vaudeville song written about him called,

00:34:09.480 I Shook the Hand That Shook the Hand of John L. Sullivan.

00:34:12.720 Yeah.

00:34:13.200 I mean, I just, I love that line.

00:34:14.760 Okay, so his boxing career just sort of fizzled out and sort of spent the rest of his life doing the celebrity thing, acting.

00:34:23.140 He became a temperance advocate.

00:34:25.380 He also settled down with another woman, another wife, and he adopted his son.

00:34:31.700 He kind of became a farmer.

00:34:33.440 I guess that's what he would describe, a country gentleman.

00:34:36.500 Yeah.

00:34:36.840 Yeah, his life sort of comes full circle at the end, you know, as, you know, a lot of life stories tend to.

00:34:46.120 You know, I think, you know, as people mellow his age and they sort of take stock on where they've been.

00:34:50.840 I think Sullivan sort of did the same thing.

00:34:52.820 You know, he was, you know, 51, 52 years old and he had given up drinking for a couple of years and then he strikes up a romance with a childhood friend of his and gets a divorce from his first wife and marries this woman and they buy a farm outside of Boston.

00:35:13.280 And, yeah, Sullivan sort of rights those wrongs.

00:35:17.820 You know, he, you know, he is his temperance advocate.

00:35:22.800 He did have a son with his first wife, but he wasn't there when his son was born.

00:35:29.500 He wasn't there when his son died suddenly at the age of two and a half.

00:35:33.920 And by all indications, he never even visited the graveside of his son.

00:35:38.940 And that was, you know, just a terrible thing when you look back at that.

00:35:44.280 But with his second wife, they bring in this orphan and adopt him and bring in another friend of a close, another young boy from a close friend that was going through health problems.

00:35:57.040 And by all accounts, he was a great father figure to these boys.

00:36:00.040 The kids that lived around him on the farm all loved him and he was great with the kids.

00:36:04.840 And, you know, he does settle down to be this farmer and, you know, also to bring the story full circle.

00:36:13.360 His parents, you know, emigrated from Ireland in the wake of the great hunger and the potato famine there.

00:36:19.820 And the most bountiful crop that Sullivan is able to grow on his farm outside of Boston turns out to be potatoes.

00:36:28.180 You know, and I think it sort of shows that journey of that so many Irish American families went through from the terrible hunger in Ireland to ultimately success here in America.

00:36:42.420 All right.

00:36:43.400 Time is coming to an end.

00:36:45.020 Last question.

00:36:46.960 Besides boxing, what legacy do you think Sullivan had on, I guess, manhood or masculinity in America?

00:36:54.660 And I love the idea that Plutarch puts out there, that biography should be used for moral instruction.

00:37:01.340 Is there any lessons that you took away from the life of Sullivan as you researched and wrote about him?

00:37:06.940 Yeah, I think so.

00:37:08.180 I mean, you know, he is sort of this icon of masculinity.

00:37:11.680 And, you know, I think even though you may not know much about Sullivan or even necessarily know his name, you probably know that image of the, you know, the bare-chested, handlebarred, mustachioed figure that is sort of an icon for masculinity.

00:37:31.480 And, you know, I sort of think, you know, there are obviously, when you examine any sort of life, those are those qualities that you admire and those that you want to take instruction from.

00:37:43.100 And I think the thing about Sullivan that made him such a fascinating character to me was just the way that he attacked life.

00:37:51.120 And he was very much this Teddy Roosevelt kind of figure.

00:37:54.220 And it's no surprise that the two men actually struck up a bit of a friendship because, you know, they sort of threw themselves into everything that they did.

00:38:05.400 You know, there wasn't anything that they did half-hearted, you know, anytime Sullivan was in the ring, the minute that the fights start, he put his full effort into it.

00:38:16.040 And that's sort of the way that he approached life as well, you know, is that he really lived life at full throttle.

00:38:24.140 And you can't say that, you know, there were too many wasted minutes during the course of the day when it came to John L. Sullivan.

00:38:32.460 And, you know, there's sort of a popular saying of the day that, you know, any man would sort of give 15 minutes, you know, give anything just to spend 15 minutes in the skin of John L. Sullivan.

00:38:43.100 And I think that's true for the most part.

00:38:45.900 But then you do take a look at these black marks on sort of his life being the racism, the way that he treated his son, the way that he treated his first wife, you know, the drinking problem that he had.

00:39:02.100 And, you know, I think you look at those as instructive moments as ones that when you look at your own life, you certainly wish that you do a better job as a father, as a husband, you know, in terms of how you live your life with your family.

00:39:23.680 So, you know, I think those are instructive for us.

00:39:27.880 But I do think there really is this powerful energy that was around him and just the way that he attacked life is something that, you know, we sort of want to try to emulate in everything that we do.

00:39:41.120 Well, very good.

00:39:41.520 Well, Chris, it was a fascinating discussion and it's a fascinating book.

00:39:45.200 I wish we had more time to delve into the life of John L. Sullivan, but thank you for your time.

00:39:51.260 And I'm going to encourage all my readers to go out and get his book.

00:39:54.180 It's The Strong Boy, The Life and Times of John L. Sullivan.

00:39:57.440 Chris Klein, thank you so much for your time.

00:39:59.540 Brett, thank you.

00:40:00.200 I appreciate it.

00:40:01.280 Our guest today was Christopher Klein.

00:40:02.840 Christopher is the author of the book Strong Boy, The Life and Times of John L. Sullivan, America's First Sports Hero.

00:40:09.560 You can find that book at Barnes & Noble and on Amazon.com.

00:40:13.000 And I highly recommend you go check it out.

00:40:15.180 It's just a fascinating read.

00:40:18.260 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:40:22.240 For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com.

00:40:27.640 And if you enjoy the podcast, we'd really appreciate it if you go on iTunes or whatever service you use to listen or download the podcast and give us a review.

00:40:35.660 That would help us out a lot.

00:40:37.140 And until next time, stay manly.

00:40:43.000 We'll see you next time.

The Art of Manliness - April 04, 2014

Episode #54： The Life Of John L. Sullivan With Christopher Klein

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