The Art of Manliness - Episode #55： The Warrior Ethos With Steven Pressfield

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00:01:20.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. Well, I am really

00:01:24.540 excited about today's episode because I am talking with one of my favorite writers. His name is Stephen

00:01:29.620 Pressfield. I know a lot of you are probably familiar with his work. A prolific writer, both fiction and

00:01:34.740 nonfiction. He wrote The Legend of Bagger Vance. Stephen's also, the books that I've been devouring

00:01:40.300 this year are the Gates of Fire series. They're fictional, historical accounts of, you know, the first

00:01:48.500 one, Gates of Fire is about the Battle of Thermopylae with the Spartan 300. He did a book about the

00:01:55.320 campaigns of Alexander the Great, and the one that I really enjoyed, Tides of War, about the Peloponnesian

00:02:00.260 War. We're going to talk about that book today. He's also written a lot of great nonfiction that's

00:02:06.460 popular amongst entrepreneurs, creative types, where he applies this warrior ethos that he writes in

00:02:12.500 as fiction to real life. So, great stuff. We're going to talk about in today's episode why Stephen

00:02:21.920 is drawn to writing about war, why he writes about war, why he's particularly drawn to the ancient

00:02:27.500 Greeks. And we're also going to talk about the warrior ethos and how you can apply it in different

00:02:34.280 aspects of your life, particularly the creative life, when you're trying to do something creative

00:02:40.120 with your life, whether you're starting a business or pursuing a passion like writing. So, great stuff.

00:02:46.960 I think you'll get a lot out of it. So, stay tuned. Just to give you a warning, we use some big boy

00:02:52.620 language in this episode. So, if you are listening to this in your office cubicle, put some headphones

00:02:57.420 on. If you've got kids, you don't want them to hear that sort of thing, just listen to it later.

00:03:03.080 So, it's a fair warning. So, let's do this. All right. Well, Stephen Pressfield, welcome to the show.

00:03:08.980 Hey, pleasure to be here, Brett. Thanks for having me.

00:03:12.180 Well, I'm really excited because there's so much I want to talk about in just a short amount of time

00:03:17.180 because you're writing, you're just a prolific writer. You write across genres, nonfiction,

00:03:23.040 fiction, screenplays. And I think our readers are really going to enjoy talking or listening to you

00:03:31.180 because you write a lot about war. That's a kind of a common theme, even in your nonfiction,

00:03:36.480 fiction, your fiction, obviously. And even the legend of Bagger Vance, I would say.

00:03:42.820 Yeah, that's actually kind of astute of you to pick that up. Most people would not get that. Yeah.

00:03:47.960 Yeah. It sort of has a warrior motif in it. Yeah.

00:03:51.120 So, my first question is, what draws you to war and warriorhood?

00:03:54.900 Well, first of all, I'm not a combat veteran. I was like a reserve marine many, many moons ago,

00:04:01.780 you know, but I've never been in combat or, you know, anything like that. So, I can't claim that

00:04:07.220 it has anything to do with that. But I think that I see life as a battle. I see it, you know,

00:04:14.180 from the minute I wake up in the morning, you know, trying to get my act together. And I see each day

00:04:20.920 as a struggle to slay the dragons of, you know, self-sabotage and laziness and perfectionism and

00:04:28.620 all the other stuff that, you know, screws us up all the time. And I also find that the virtues of

00:04:39.000 a writer or the virtues that you need to succeed in the creative arts are, to me, the virtues of a

00:04:45.480 warrior. The ability, patience, courage, the ability to endure adversity, sense of humor,

00:04:55.300 respect for the enemy, that kind of thing. So, that's, you know, that's my best answer to it.

00:05:00.680 But I really don't know. I mean, I just was sort of, you know, I worked as a writer for,

00:05:07.300 or a struggling writer for probably 25 years before I wrote the first thing that was about war.

00:05:12.460 I don't know why. And then I just sort of wrote another one and another one and another one. So,

00:05:17.340 there's a certain mystery to the whole thing, unanswerable quality to it.

00:05:22.420 Well, why? So, you have like this whole series about the Peloponnesian, you know,

00:05:29.160 the Peloponnesian Wars. What draws you to like classical Greek culture and those wars that happened

00:05:33.960 during that golden age of Greece?

00:05:35.660 That's a good question, Brett. And here's the weird part of it, is that although I am drawn to

00:05:42.020 Greece and very fascinated by that, I couldn't give a shit about Rome. And right, they're the same 0.98

00:05:48.660 thing, basically, but I don't know why. So, maybe it's previous lives or something. But the other,

00:05:54.100 I think that ancient Greece, particularly Athens and Sparta, are just like a fascinating sort of

00:06:00.560 petri dish. They're kind of like our era, but on a much smaller scale, where things are clear,

00:06:07.880 and you can kind of see it, you know? It's not as confusing as it is. And the other thing I love

00:06:13.700 about ancient Greece is it's like pre-Freudian, pre-industrial, particularly pre-Freudian, 0.77

00:06:20.780 pre-Christian, pre-Judaic, pre-all the crap that screws things up, you know? Pre-communist, 0.95

00:06:28.200 pre-Fascist. And the ancient Greeks kind of had what I think is a really clear-eyed view of what

00:06:35.920 human nature is about. I mean, they had a very, I won't say it was a dark view, but it wasn't dark

00:06:43.560 to them. They just sort of saw it for the way it was. They knew that when people got pushed to the

00:06:49.320 wall, they did some pretty, you know, bad things. So, and I just, I love the prose from those days,

00:06:58.040 you know? If you read, I don't know if your readers are into this stuff, but if you read

00:07:03.060 Thucydides, if you read Xenophon, if you read Plato, if you read Plutarch, it's just pellucid,

00:07:10.860 clear, great prose that when you're finished reading it, you feel better about yourself instead of worse,

00:07:17.800 like so much of the stuff that's out today.

00:07:21.020 And you just mentioned something that leads me to my next question I had. So you talk,

00:07:24.800 you mentioned how the Greeks had this understanding of human nature that I don't think we really have.

00:07:31.060 It's not very, they had a very nuanced understanding of human nature. They had like these, what I,

00:07:35.860 they had these like concepts, right? Like words that described a feeling or a state,

00:07:40.700 like for example, Thumos, right? And it's hard to describe in our vernacular because we don't have

00:07:47.920 like a vocabulary for it. And what I love about your books is that you take these big Greek concepts

00:07:54.460 about human nature and you make them like the main theme of your book and you weave that in

00:08:00.880 throughout your novel. So for example, in The Virtues of War, right? About the campaigns of Alexander the

00:08:07.680 Great, that Greek concept or virtue was dynamis. Yeah. Yeah. Can you explain dynamis to our

00:08:14.900 listeners? And, you know, it's, you know, I'm not even sure I really understand. I have kind of

00:08:21.020 my own idea. Yeah. I gave it a Greek word. Here's a little, I got to tell you a little confession

00:08:25.620 before I do this. I have a friend who's a Greek named Hippocrates Kanzios. He's a professor down in

00:08:33.200 Florida. And a lot, what I would do with my early books is I'd come up with kind of a press field

00:08:39.200 concept and I'd send it to Hipp and I'd say, what's the Greek word for this? And he would come

00:08:45.380 up with, you know, sometimes he even had to invent a word for it. But so I shouldn't tell you this,

00:08:50.500 but that's, that's, that's the truth. But dynamis is just, you know, it's, it's close to eros in the

00:08:57.300 sense of, uh, just to drive the will to win. It's really, you know, the art of manliness. It's that

00:09:04.080 sort of masculine drive. And I don't just mean it in a, in a sexual or gender sense. It's, you know,

00:09:11.200 the old concept of, uh, the sky God that shoots a bolt of lightning down to earth and earth is feminine 0.61

00:09:17.340 and the sky God is, is masculine. That's kind of what it is. Um, but let me, before I forget this,

00:09:24.380 let me say one other thing about why I like the, the Greek mentality. It's like a lot of the,

00:09:30.360 the, the philosophies that we deal with today. And I was just mentioning Freudianism, communism and

00:09:36.160 fascism and Christianity as well, have this idea of if we only do such and such, we will be saved. 0.75

00:09:47.180 You know what I mean? It's like, if, if we're, if it's Freudian, it's, if I just get analyzed enough

00:09:52.940 and solve the stuff in my head, then I'll be happy, you know, or Christianity. It's like, 0.99

00:09:57.960 if I could just live like Jesus, if I could turn the other cheek, if I could love my fellow man,

00:10:03.180 I would emerge to some higher level, right? Communism. It's the same thing. You know,

00:10:07.880 the workers paradise, if we could just all, you know, work together, pull together, not compete 0.97

00:10:13.180 with each other, but, and all of it is bullshit, right? I mean, nothing, nothing works. There's no 0.95

00:10:18.220 upper level that you're going to get to in any of these things. And I think that the Greeks knew

00:10:22.840 that, you know, and they weren't even, you know, that's why their gods were so human,

00:10:27.880 right? The gods committed infidelities. They cheated, they lied, they, you know,

00:10:32.840 screwed around on their partners and everything. And they were angry. They were crazy. And, uh,

00:10:38.940 you know, I, I, I somehow, I love that, you know, and when sometimes I get, you know, uh, because my

00:10:46.660 books are about Greece, a lot of them, I get a lot of letters from Greece, you know, from real Greeks

00:10:51.700 today. And they'll say to me, our country's in the toilet. Well, you know, what can we do to,

00:10:56.360 you know, how can we get out of it? And my answer is always forget Christianity, go back to the 1.00

00:11:02.100 Olympian gods. That was when you guys had it together. And, uh, so I don't know, I don't think

00:11:07.960 they're going to do it. You know, they're going to do it. Well, so you mentioned, um, like Sparta and

00:11:12.260 Athens, how you, you, so there's sort of a microcosm of humanity. And one of the, I've been thinking

00:11:18.600 about this a lot lately, since I read the tides of war, right? About the, the civil war between

00:11:24.940 Athens and Sparta. And there's this great scene where the general, the Spartans, Lycurgus gets up

00:11:29.780 and gives this rousing speech about the difference between the Spartans and the Athenians. And he says,

00:11:35.340 the Spartans have Andrea and the Athenians have, I guess it's pronounced Thrastes or Thristes?

00:11:41.260 Thracetis. Thracetis. Okay. Look at me. I'm not, I can't. So what else? If we had a real

00:11:46.060 Greek here, we'd probably pronounce it. So what, what are the differences between those

00:11:50.520 two virtues and which one do you resonate with personally?

00:11:54.660 Ah, okay. And actually it was Lysander. Lysander. Okay. Excuse me.

00:11:59.360 But I got to tell you, it's a great pleasure to be talking to somebody who's actually read my books

00:12:03.560 and knows what the heck they are. But, uh, Lysander, the Spartan admiral, who was really kind of a bad

00:12:10.140 guy in a lot of ways, a true character, was comparing Athens and Sparta. And he said that,

00:12:15.320 that, uh, Sparta, this is all fiction, but I, but I'm sure it's true. Um, Spartans are brave,

00:12:23.460 but Athenians are bold. And he makes a big, that's what Thracetis and Andrea are. And, and he makes a,

00:12:31.480 um, a real distinction between the two and the, and the, the brave, this kind of plugs into the art

00:12:37.140 of men, is the brave man. This is the Spartan is in, in Lysander's view, pious, humble, modest,

00:12:51.000 long suffering. He's the kind of like an infantryman that can be on the front lines at 30 below zero,

00:12:58.060 you know, with artillery rounds coming in every day, every, and just bears it, you know, and,

00:13:04.500 and, and the brave man, according to Lysander, um, fears the gods, respects heaven,

00:13:11.900 acknowledges that the human being lives on a lower level than the gods. And, and so is a, uh,

00:13:21.080 has a certain becoming modesty to him. Now the bold person on the other hand, and he, Lysander,

00:13:27.980 characterizes Athens as this, and I would say that I would characterize America in the same way,

00:13:33.680 that, uh, that, uh, they're not, they're not brave as much as they are. Um, they're just willing to go

00:13:41.680 balls to the wall on something. They come up with an idea, an outrageous idea, you know, ambitious,

00:13:48.920 tremendous stunt, like, you know, invading a country that never did anything to us. And,

00:13:55.240 and they pull it off. And boldness has a, has a tremendous, um, Alexander was really both of

00:14:02.340 these. He was brave and bold, but boldness kind of carries the, the, the momentum of the enterprise

00:14:10.720 can sometimes carry something through, even when it's not very well thought out, you know, like going

00:14:15.620 to the moon or something like that. And so what Lysander was saying, and Lysander was putting this

00:14:21.220 down. He was saying, boldness is not going to last boldness. He says, the, um, the man thinks of

00:14:28.060 himself as God and kind of tries to, to, uh, to emulate the gods or to compete with the gods to,

00:14:36.200 to, to have really, really ambitious stunts. And, uh, Lysander's point was the gods don't like that

00:14:44.640 and they're going to bring these people down. So that's anyway, that was a, thank you for coming

00:14:50.740 up with that. You're the only person that's ever noticed that yet. Well, I just, I mean,

00:14:54.520 it was such a great scene. And the reason I resonated with, cause as I was reading that,

00:14:58.560 it was, um, I kept on thinking back to, I was thinking, well, this sounds like Athens sounds

00:15:04.120 like America today and kind of the values that we emphasize as a culture. Yeah. And it's funny

00:15:10.100 cause like you read, you know, the founding fathers and while they admired Athens for their

00:15:14.600 science and art, they really admired the Spartan civic virtue. And I think that Andrea or whatever,

00:15:23.560 Andrea, which means manliness, um, the way you described it kind of exemplifies that civic

00:15:28.320 virtue of the Spartans. It's long suffering. You're in it for the, you're playing the long game.

00:15:32.880 Um, yeah. I mean, it's very well put. Yeah. Something I feel like I could use some more of in my own

00:15:38.320 life possibly. And I think we could use some in our own culture, but here's the question. So

00:15:42.380 I guess for you as a writer, um, you were talking earlier about, um, you know, the, the virtues of

00:15:48.480 war and the virtues of warrior hood, um, helps you in your writing. So I guess you would say

00:15:53.620 Andrea, is that how you pronounce it? And yeah, I think Andrea, is that the one that really resonates

00:15:59.780 with you and gets you through your writing? That's, that's another great question. I think for,

00:16:05.100 for any artist, I think you need both. You need the boldness to, uh, come up with a, with an idea

00:16:13.760 that's really ambitious. You know, if you're going to write Moby Dick or Remembrance of Things Past or

00:16:20.640 any, anything, if you're going to do Avatar, you know, not that that's great, but you know what I

00:16:25.620 mean? It takes, you gotta have, you gotta be crazy enough to really go for it and really, uh, um,

00:16:31.560 extend beyond your capacity. But at the same time, any kind of long-term work of art, like a novel

00:16:37.380 or a, or a movie, you're in the trenches day after day after day with the rain beaten down on your

00:16:43.600 head. And so you need Andrea there, and you do need a respect for the gods, for the muse, you know,

00:16:49.820 that to, to, to not think that you're the one that's doing it. So I think you need both.

00:16:54.860 And that's why I think Alexander the Great was such a, why he was able to conquer the world. He

00:16:58.940 was both. He had balls of steel and, and, uh, but he also was capable of the long game. You know,

00:17:06.580 he play, he, you know, he played it out for as long as he was breathing.

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00:18:11.460 Yeah. So yeah, this kind of segues nicely into talking about your nonfiction books. So you've

00:18:16.680 written several nonfiction books that are very popular amongst writers, creative types, entrepreneurs.

00:18:23.180 And one of the books I just finished reading is called Turning Pro. And you talk about in Turning

00:18:30.020 Pro, the difference between an amateur and a pro. Can you talk about the difference between an amateur

00:18:34.720 and pro? And here's a kind of segue back into Andrea and Thristies. If you're a pro, which virtue

00:18:42.160 do you have? And if you're an amateur, which virtue do you have? That's another great question,

00:18:48.440 Brad. I don't think that falls into that split. If you're a pro, I think you need both. And if you're

00:18:54.880 an amateur, you don't have either one of them. You know, the difference to me, you know, there are

00:19:04.040 many people who struggle to be, they have great, they want to write a novel or they want to do

00:19:09.660 something in the arts or some, you know, some long-term project and they can never quite get it

00:19:14.400 together. And I was that way for years and years and years. I would start something, take it 99% of the

00:19:21.460 way through and then crash. And to me, the insight that sort of turned the corner for me was realizing

00:19:29.320 that I was an amateur, that I was, you know, when adversity hit, I didn't have the guts to stick it

00:19:36.420 out. You know, I didn't have the patience, all those warrior virtues, right? I suppose amateur to pro is

00:19:41.480 the difference between non-warrior and warrior. But, you know, a professional is somebody, if you think

00:19:47.700 of a professional athlete that knows how to play hurt, that shows up every night that, you know,

00:19:53.380 when, when there's no glamour involved in it, is still there doing the work, you know, putting,

00:19:59.060 you know, doing the shoot around, putting up the shots, taking care of, uh, turning pro, the book is

00:20:04.100 about the moment of changing from an amateur into a pro, even if it's only in your own mind, you know,

00:20:11.500 forgetting about the money aspect of it. Yeah. And you talk about through all these books and

00:20:16.400 turning pro and in your other works that the thing that keeps people from turning pro is what you call

00:20:20.620 resistance with a capital R. Um, can you explain, I'm sure you've answered this question lots of

00:20:26.460 times on these types of podcasts, but what is resistance? Uh, well, resistance is, uh, to me,

00:20:34.260 I experienced it right now. I'm sitting here at my desk and here's my keyboard. Can you see that?

00:20:41.160 Oh yeah. I can see it. And, uh, here's my, I'm looking right at my computer. When I get, when I

00:20:46.680 come to sit down here, there's a force that's radiating off of this keyboard that says, don't do

00:20:54.220 the work. Go have a hot fudge Sunday, go to the beach, you know, fuck off. You know, that's resistance. 1.00

00:21:01.840 If you've ever bought a treadmill, as I say, in a war of art and brought it home and let it gather

00:21:08.220 dusk in the attic, then that, you know, resistance is. So you were saying before, Brett, about, uh,

00:21:15.380 how, why do I write stuff about war? Well, to me, the enemy is this force that I call resistance with

00:21:21.680 a capital R and it's inside ourselves. And it's the force, all the forces that will keep us from 0.97

00:21:29.040 becoming our best self, from getting our PhD, from starting that business, from, you know,

00:21:36.200 creating, you know, the art of manliness or whatever it is, whatever enterprise we're,

00:21:40.540 we're talking about, self-sabotage, procrastination, perfectionism, all of those things that we know

00:21:47.800 about, laziness, greed, um, over-competitiveness, um, that's resistance. And, um, it seems to be,

00:21:58.080 it's must be born in everybody because I get hundreds and hundreds of letters, as you can imagine.

00:22:02.740 Sure. And, uh, so again, the, sort of the, the, the, the manly virtues, sort of in my mind,

00:22:08.900 although it could also be womanly, you know, you're looking from the point of view as a mother,

00:22:12.660 who's braver than a mother raising a child, um, are the virtues, the internal virtues that allow you to

00:22:20.680 face resistance and, and to overcome it and to do your work instead of letting resistance defeat you.

00:22:27.220 And, you know, you blow your whole day, blow your year, blow, you know, blow your lifetime.

00:22:34.220 So what I find fascinating too, about what you write about in turning pro and do the work, like,

00:22:38.720 yeah, well do the work, like the, your response basically to resistance is just get busy, like

00:22:43.260 start doing something. Right. And then the magic happens. I think a lot of people,

00:22:48.680 I know I've had this experience too, personally, is like, I expect the magic to happen. Right. I'll get,

00:22:54.360 you know, the angels will come and, you know, the muses will come to me and then I'll just start

00:22:58.820 writing. But you say it's the other way around. You have to start, you have to work for that. Then

00:23:02.900 the muses or that inspiration comes. Which is exactly true. It's very workmanlike principle.

00:23:08.640 There's a, that quote from Somerset Maugham where somebody asked him, uh, do you write according to

00:23:15.420 a schedule or only when inspiration strikes you? And he says, I write only when inspiration strikes me.

00:23:21.300 He says, fortunately it strikes me every morning at nine o'clock sharp. So in other words, that's the

00:23:27.220 concept of do the work. Um, just, you know, it's like the Nike slogan, just do it, sit down. That's

00:23:34.520 to me, there's no mystery to it. You know, it's just a matter of, um, I have another saying that I

00:23:40.380 say, which is put your ass where your heart wants to be. And what I mean by that is if you want to paint, 0.99

00:23:47.060 get your body in front of an easel, you know, if you want to be a filmmaker, get out and shoot film,

00:23:54.360 you know, just act first and then inspiration will come in the course of it.

00:24:01.660 Are there, um, other things that get in the way of returning pro or becoming an amateur? Um,

00:24:07.720 so for example, you mentioned, I think in the authentic swing about, in the Bhagavad Gita,

00:24:12.400 um, it was Krishna said this, that, you know, you're entitled to your labor, but not the fruits

00:24:20.520 of your labor or something like that. It's like focusing on the fruit, like on the reward. Is

00:24:24.640 that just a form of resistance or is that something else that gets in the way of turning pro?

00:24:29.540 It is a form of resistance. And I got to say, Brett, it's a pleasure to be interviewed by

00:24:33.700 you who actually have thought about these things that, you know, you actually have done your,

00:24:38.780 you've done your work. I really appreciate it. Well, thank you. And I think it'll be very

00:24:43.240 helpful to people who hear this interview that they'll actually, you know, you can imagine the 0.98

00:24:48.060 incredible bullshit questions I get from a lot of people. But anyway, back to, what was the question 0.62

00:24:54.360 again? So, I mean, like, so like is focusing on the, yeah, focusing on, I think he said something

00:24:59.360 about, you know, you're entitled to your labor, but not the fruits of your labor. Right.

00:25:02.560 So that is a real Eastern principle. It's a Hindu principle that, uh, the concept of like we here

00:25:10.780 in the States, if we're going to start some kind of project, we already ask, ask ourselves, right?

00:25:15.260 Well, what's the payoff? Yeah. Where's the money? Where are the women? Oh, what do I get out of this 0.96

00:25:19.900 stuff? Right. Whereas it's a much more Eastern concept to say that the work is its own reward.

00:25:27.160 And you're not looking for the big payoff pie in the sky, brass ring at the end, but you're just

00:25:34.140 trying to, you have the right to, to do your labor, but not to the fruits of your labor. And if you look

00:25:39.240 at people that, that crash and burn after success, it's, you can watch it again and again, they suddenly

00:25:49.000 get the fruits of their labor and they just dive in and forget everything else. And then there's the

00:25:55.520 fastest way to go straight down the tubes. So just, I guess the goal is to focus on the process,

00:26:01.580 not the end result, not the product. Yeah. Process. That's not right. Yeah. Process. Which is really

00:26:07.320 true. I mean, it sounds like a bunch of high flown stuff, but if, if you're, you know, when you're a

00:26:12.480 kid and you go out and you're playing basketball on the court in your yard, you just love the game,

00:26:17.560 right? Yeah. That's all. That's the pure, the pure sense of it, the pure reality of it.

00:26:25.020 Here's, here's a question. So, I mean, I personally resonate with this whole idea of

00:26:28.320 fighting resistance and being a warrior in the face of that dark cloud that says you can't do it, but

00:26:33.680 I mean, do you always have to be fighting it or is there times when you can let go and just like

00:26:38.880 relax a bit or do you always have to fight the resistance? Is that something you always have to

00:26:42.660 do or do you need to know when to lay off a bit? I mean, I know it's kind of a vague question,

00:26:47.980 but I was wondering about that. No, I, I know what you mean. Yeah, actually. Um,

00:26:54.120 I mean, I do certainly think that, uh, another thing I always say is that habit is a mighty ally.

00:27:01.100 Yeah. And once you're in the groove of doing anything, going to the gym, swimming, running,

00:27:07.020 you know, but, uh, I, I think you were asking a different question. Okay. And, um, I'm actually

00:27:14.020 sort of right now in that kind of state where I, I just have finished a three year project and I'm not,

00:27:21.020 I'm kind of starting another one, but I'm, I'm, I'm not really into it yet. And it's a very dangerous

00:27:28.280 place to be for, for any artist. Um, have you ever heard of, uh, Billy Bishop, the world war one,

00:27:37.180 he was a world war one fighter pilot and he had some, some rules that he put out. And one of the

00:27:42.120 rules that they still talk about among, in any air force today is when is the most dangerous time

00:27:48.380 for a fighter pilot? And it is, the answer is it's immediately after making a kill

00:27:53.320 because you're suddenly right. You're all puffed up with yourself. You're so, and you lose,

00:27:59.780 you take your eye off the ball and somebody is on your tail and they shoot you down. So

00:28:04.900 I think when you finish one project, resistance is, is still there. It's hovering over you and,

00:28:14.180 and you have to kind of, for me at least get into another one right away and not get into that

00:28:21.360 trough that, that dip that Seth Godin talks about. Yeah. Otherwise it gets harder and harder. It's just

00:28:27.020 like a fitness regime, right? If you finish running a marathon and you crap out for the next two months,

00:28:34.240 when you try to start again, boy, it is really hard. You know, it doesn't mean you can't rest for a

00:28:39.240 little while after a marathon, but you got to get back on the horse pretty soon. Sure. I think that

00:28:44.320 that principle by Billy Bishop, I think other generals from history understood that as well.

00:28:48.600 I remember Alexander the Great and even Napoleon mentioned how like after a victory, they'd let

00:28:53.680 their soldiers maybe celebrate a little bit, right? Get their, get their, um, their treasure and

00:29:00.380 women. Um, but then right away they got them on another project, whether it was like digging a, 0.99

00:29:05.000 uh, uh, canal or whatever, because once, yeah, they knew once they got in that sort of lull,

00:29:11.700 it was hard to get out of it again. Yeah. All right. Um, so here's a question I had from a reader.

00:29:18.300 He wanted me to ask you is he really resonates with, um, your nonfiction about, you know, fighting

00:29:24.760 resistance. And, and it seems like a lot of it's geared towards writers and creative types because

00:29:29.220 you're a writer, but do you think it's just as applicable to say you're, you work in a corporate gig or

00:29:34.060 you're an electrician or a student? Do you think those, uh, those principles are just as applicable?

00:29:40.340 Well, that's another great question. I think that, uh, there's two different kinds of jobs. In my

00:29:46.280 opinion, there's a job that you do for money that your heart isn't really in, you know? Um,

00:29:53.900 and there, I don't think resistance enters at all. You're just slogging the work, doing your thing,

00:29:59.180 but, but when it's a job that you love, and a lot of times it's, it, that's your side job,

00:30:05.060 you know, somebody will work as an electrician, but they'll build motorcycles in the, you know,

00:30:09.500 in the garage on the weekend. And that's their kind of love. That's their passion. And that's

00:30:15.440 where resistance will come. In my opinion, my experience, resistance shows up when you're trying

00:30:22.280 to move from a lower level to a higher level. When you're trying to do something that you really

00:30:28.040 love that really is coming from the best part of yourself. Um, otherwise, if you're just going to

00:30:35.380 work, you're riding a subway into some cubicle, it doesn't even enter the picture. Well, very

00:30:41.200 interesting. Well, Stephen Pressfield, thank you so much for your time. This has been a, just a

00:30:44.140 fascinating conversation. Uh, I've really enjoyed your insights. I've gotten some insights that I've

00:30:49.040 had questions about that whole Lysander speech I've been thinking about a lot lately. So it was great

00:30:53.560 hearing, uh, hearing your input on that. So thank you so much again for your time.

00:30:57.000 Hey, Brad, thanks to you. Thanks for the great questions. And thanks for what you've done with

00:31:00.640 the art of manliness. You know, my hat's off to you. I salute you. There's a, that's a great work

00:31:05.080 of art that you started from nothing. And then you produced out of your own heart and your own

00:31:09.680 passion, you know, that is helping a lot of people. Well, thank you very much. That means a lot coming

00:31:14.200 from you. All right. Till next time. Till next time. Do the work, right? Okay.

00:31:21.080 Our guest day was Stephen Pressfield. Stephen is the author of several books ranging from fiction to

00:31:25.380 nonfiction. His latest nonfiction book is the authentic swing. It's about his experience,

00:31:30.360 writing the legend of Bagger Vance and lessons you can take from that. Uh, also lessons from the

00:31:35.260 game of golf, a really great book. And you find that on amazon.com. His latest fiction book is the

00:31:40.180 profession. Uh, if you read gates of fire, tides of war, you enjoyed those books. You'll love the

00:31:45.500 profession. It's all about that warrior ethos, but set in the near future. And you also check out

00:31:50.720 stephenpressfield.com. Stephen and his crew are constantly putting out top quality content there.

00:31:56.980 Uh, if you are an aspiring writer, especially you'll find the information there, uh, extremely

00:32:02.500 useful. And even if you're just a, uh, uh, entrepreneur or an aspiring entrepreneur, you'll

00:32:08.560 find the content there, uh, motivating and useful as well. So make sure to check out stephenpressfield.com.

00:32:14.720 Well, that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,

00:32:22.640 make sure to check out the art of manliness website at art of manliness.com. And until next time,

00:32:27.200 stay manly.

00:32:44.720 Bye.

00:32:45.300 Bye.

00:32:46.360 Bye.

00:32:46.380 Bye.

00:32:47.260 Bye.

00:32:51.340 Bye.

00:32:51.480 Bye.

00:33:07.860 Bye.

00:33:08.460 Bye.

00:33:08.720 Bye.

00:33:10.480 Bye.

00:33:11.140 Bye.

00:33:12.340 Bye.

The Art of Manliness - April 04, 2014

Episode #55： The Warrior Ethos With Steven Pressfield

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