The Art of Manliness - April 03, 2014


Episode #6： Man Stories with Zeke Smith

Topics
marriage and manliness influences
Hosted by
Brett McKay
Mentioned
Zeke Smith Wendy J.D. Greer
Episode #49： The Way Of Men With Jack Donovan

Episode Stats


Length

17 minutes

Words per minute

185.55

Word count

3,183

Sentence count

221

Harmful content

Misogyny

1

sentences flagged

Hate speech

1

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, Brett sits down with Zeke Smith, a 26-year-old photographer and web designer, to discuss what it means to be a man. Zeke talks about his journey to becoming a man, how he became a man and what it takes to be one.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 This episode of the Art of Manliness podcast is brought to you by Online Great Books.
00:00:03.120 If you've made a goal for yourself to read the great books of the Western world,
00:00:06.360 but have had trouble following through, check out Online Great Books.
00:00:09.020 It's an online platform. You sign up.
00:00:10.760 They're going to mail you a physical copy of the book that you're assigned that month.
00:00:13.540 They're going to provide you a reading schedule and send you reminders on how you should read
00:00:17.060 so you can keep pace.
00:00:18.060 Then at the end of the month, you're going to have a online video seminar
00:00:20.860 where you can discuss the book with other people in your group.
00:00:23.340 So if you want to learn more about this, go to OnlineGreatBooks.com.
00:00:26.500 And when you're ready to sign up, use code AOM at checkout.
00:00:29.160 You can save 25% on your first three months.
00:00:31.580 Again, OnlineGreatBooks.com, code AOM at checkout.
00:00:34.360 Save 25% on your first three months.
00:00:51.560 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another episode of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:00:55.920 And this week, we return to our series called Man Stories,
00:00:58.560 where every other week we interview a different gentleman and ask him what it means to be a man.
00:01:04.040 And this week, our guest is Zeke Smith.
00:01:06.780 Zeke, welcome to the show.
00:01:08.580 Thanks for having me on, Brett. I appreciate it.
00:01:10.180 Yeah, thank you. I appreciate you taking the time and sharing your thoughts with us.
00:01:14.000 So, Zeke, before we get started with the questions, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
00:01:17.740 Sure, no problem.
00:01:18.600 I am a 26-year-old web designer and photographer.
00:01:23.780 I actually just moved to Manchester, England with my wife, Wendy.
00:01:29.020 She is starting a graduate school program here at the University of Manchester.
00:01:34.900 And we have lived in North Carolina for the past few years.
00:01:38.620 It was a little bit tough to leave Chapel Hill, which was actually the place where I went to college and we met.
00:01:45.480 But we're really enjoying it in England and, you know, picking up a new English language, so to speak.
00:01:51.560 Yeah. So, I'm guessing you're a big North Carolina fan then, right?
00:01:55.000 Yeah, actually. I've been a sports photographer for the team for the last bunch of years, so it was great to go out on top.
00:02:02.240 I actually was in Detroit for the 2009 National Championship and in St. Louis for the 05 Championship.
00:02:08.740 So, it was definitely a great run there.
00:02:11.000 And fortunately, there's a lot of streaming webcasts on sports and that kind of thing, so I can keep up with my teams from over here.
00:02:19.100 Yeah, that'd be a shame if you missed out on that stuff.
00:02:21.540 Exactly.
00:02:22.200 All right. So, you ready to start with the question, Zeke?
00:02:24.160 Absolutely. Go ahead.
00:02:25.000 All right, Zeke. When do you feel like you became a man?
00:02:28.780 Well, Brett, I think really when I became a man was probably when I got married.
00:02:33.380 And I know that sounds a little bit cliche, and it wasn't like I walked out of the honeymoon suite the night after my wedding going,
00:02:39.920 yes, now I am a man.
00:02:42.220 But I think marriage certainly brings out a lot of qualities in a person that really translate into you discovering what it means to be a man.
00:02:51.740 You really become much more aware of things outside of yourself than you ever have been before.
00:02:57.000 You sort of become aware of the fact that you might be a little bit selfish as a person or different things like that,
00:03:03.880 and really make you start to reach out and think about things beyond just your own sphere of influence.
00:03:08.900 And so I really think that just the worlds that open up when you get married is really a lot of what it means to be a man
00:03:17.760 and start to become conscious of taking care of other people besides yourself and being kind and how you act
00:03:25.680 and a lot of those sort of things.
00:03:27.420 So I'd have to say probably when I got married, which is about four years ago.
00:03:31.040 Four years ago. You were 22 when you got married.
00:03:33.880 Yeah, I was pretty young.
00:03:34.980 But, you know, I certainly had not anticipated that.
00:03:39.400 You know, I always joked that I would be the last guy of my friends to get married.
00:03:43.160 But, you know, when you really find the one, it doesn't really matter, I guess.
00:03:46.920 That's what they say, and that's the case with me.
00:03:49.320 Yeah, that's kind of how it happened with me, too.
00:03:50.940 I got married pretty young.
00:03:52.120 I think I was 22 years old, and I wasn't planning on getting married that young.
00:03:56.860 But, yeah, you find the one, and why put it off?
00:04:00.580 Exactly.
00:04:01.700 All right, Zeke.
00:04:02.760 What does manliness mean to you?
00:04:05.620 I mean, I think probably the way that I define manliness the most is the godly man.
00:04:11.800 And I know I probably elicited a lot of eye rolls from listeners and that kind of thing with that comment.
00:04:17.760 And I don't necessarily mean the religious man, the guy who pounds on his chest and says, like, I know what God wants for me.
00:04:25.740 And it's to keep the woman in the kitchen barefoot and making me pies. 1.00
00:04:29.100 But I actually mean, you know, I think that manliness is really defined by a lot of the figures in the Bible.
00:04:37.680 I am actually a Christian, and, you know, I hope that doesn't make listeners uncomfortable or anything like that.
00:04:44.380 But I think that there are a lot of really cool visions of manliness that come out of biblical stories.
00:04:50.160 You know, there are guys who are well aware of their flaws, have really big problems, but they, you know, overcome them through faith and perseverance and things like that.
00:05:01.080 And that's really a definition of a man to me is a man who realizes that he has flaws, but cares for the people around him and really looks to something beyond himself, sort of the greater purpose, if you will.
00:05:16.120 Yeah. So this kind of leads on to our next question.
00:05:18.860 What men in your life, living, dead or, you know, fictional or from history, have influenced your views of manliness?
00:05:25.720 Sure. Yeah. And I think to that point, certainly biblical figures have influenced my my view.
00:05:34.080 But I mean, it's not really enough to say that those are the only people who have influenced my view on manliness.
00:05:39.700 My dad, obviously, is probably the the number one influence, as I can.
00:05:44.740 I'm sure that a lot of readers and listeners can say the same.
00:05:49.000 That's sort of inherited.
00:05:50.100 And then beyond that, I would say probably the two other biggest influences are the guy who was my pastor for the last number of years in Durham,
00:06:00.460 whose name is J.D. Greer and is is really intent on making the church a place where guys are totally comfortable.
00:06:09.140 He's always said he wants a church for dudes and and has run this program called Men's Fraternity,
00:06:16.520 which sounds way lamer than it actually is, where guys all kind of got together at a manly time of six in the morning every Friday and sort of haggled with these issues that are really difficult for men to talk about.
00:06:30.480 It's like, hey, why are we the way we are and why do we have trouble with things like this?
00:06:35.040 And I actually thought that was really cool to to run a program like that where a lot of guys want to have those conversations with other guys,
00:06:42.400 but don't know how to actually start them up or find an environment where they can have those conversations.
00:06:46.940 Yeah.
00:06:48.080 So I thought that was a really cool program and helped me sort of talk through a lot of those things.
00:06:53.220 And you also meet guys of all kinds of ages.
00:06:55.820 So I would say J.D. Greer is a really major one.
00:06:59.320 And I've loved my friendship with him.
00:07:01.120 He and I still keep in touch.
00:07:02.380 And then the other ones are probably the other seven guys that I lived with my senior year in college where we were called the Overlook Boys.
00:07:13.080 We lived in this place called the Overlook.
00:07:14.980 And and I think that they, you know, all of us together have really sort of helped define what each of us think a man is because all of us are so different.
00:07:25.500 It's a sort of a group of friends that I think every guy would love to have.
00:07:31.040 And I'm really blessed to have.
00:07:33.340 It's a bunch of guys who have all gone on to different life occupations, have all come from different places in life and even places in the country and things like that.
00:07:44.440 And so we've brought different perspectives and we all get together, you know, at least once a year to just see each other again.
00:07:51.100 And beyond that, we just talk on the phone all the time and that kind of thing.
00:07:54.200 And so I think every man should really have a group like that of other guys who help, you know, keep him sharp, keep him accountable and that kind of thing about what he's what what's going on in his life and what he's up to and just checking in with each other.
00:08:10.760 So I think that group of guys, the Overlook Boys, have done a really great job of helping me progress into manhood because we all share like our experiences with each other and learn from them.
00:08:22.600 And that's been great.
00:08:23.280 That's great. That's great. You have a group of friends like that.
00:08:25.200 I know a lot of men these days aren't fortunate enough to have that.
00:08:29.600 We're so isolated these days. That's great. You have that. You've had that support.
00:08:33.240 Yeah, I think it's funny. I mean, one of the movies that we watched actually when we were on the plane over here, my wife and I was I Love You, Man, which I thought was a hilarious and be totally apropos for the times.
00:08:47.700 These these these days where it's really difficult for dudes to meet other dudes once you're like out of college.
00:08:53.920 Yeah. And and I'm even finding that to be true here in England.
00:08:57.580 And, you know, it's it's one of the first times that I've ever moved somewhere in my life.
00:09:01.960 I'm actually an army brat. So we've we've moved around all as a kid.
00:09:05.640 But this is kind of my first time as an adult moving to a place that's totally new.
00:09:09.660 And so going out and trying to make adult friends is really awkward, you know, going up to another guy and be like, hey, I see you like basketball.
00:09:18.280 I like basketball, too. You want to get together sometime and play basketball?
00:09:22.480 It just feels awkward. It feels awkward.
00:09:24.680 So what I mean, going on that, I mean, what have you done since you've been in Manchester to try to make new new male friends?
00:09:30.820 Well, fortunately, there's this interconnected series of tubes that has all kinds of information about getting together with groups.
00:09:38.660 And so I'm really fortunate that the Internet is here because I've just been looking up different groups of digital creatives, you know, people who do the same kind of work that I do.
00:09:47.320 So I have that in common with different groups that are sort of on the same wavelength in terms of my wife and I finding a church and like finding activities and things like that.
00:09:58.000 And then guys who play like pick up soccer and basketball and that kind of thing.
00:10:02.960 So it's sort of been the thing where I guess you pick a common interest and you try to roll with that and try to find other people who are into the same things.
00:10:11.080 And then you progress from there. But, yeah, it's it is a little bit awkward just to start off.
00:10:17.200 Yeah, it's good you're doing that.
00:10:18.860 So, Zeke, you mentioned that your father had an influence on your view of manliness.
00:10:23.240 And how exactly did your father influence your conception of masculinity or manliness?
00:10:28.900 Sure. I think he really influenced it a lot in terms of that I wanted to be a well-rounded man and very much in the way that he is.
00:10:40.660 He is he is so much he has so much depth to him and that's something that I've always admired about my dad.
00:10:47.220 He has just an extreme body of knowledge and a respect for all things that I think is awesome.
00:10:55.240 You know, he was a military man, but he's not really a stereotypical military guy.
00:11:00.360 He was also, you know, in veterinary school before he decided to join the army and serve his country in Vietnam.
00:11:08.320 And he was almost a poet and actor and he has a lot of different facets to his life.
00:11:15.900 But I think he also, you know, influenced me in some negative ways, as every dad probably does.
00:11:23.100 I'm I'm definitely afraid of that when I have kids someday that I'm sure some of my flaws are going to come out.
00:11:28.380 But I think because he had some issues growing up and that kind of thing, that he was a little bit of an absent father.
00:11:35.400 My parents kind of split up when I was young.
00:11:37.900 So I think he obviously showed me what it was to be a man and to really put your family first and that kind of thing.
00:11:44.680 Even though my parents split up, he moved across the country just to be near to me when I was in junior high and high school and really prioritized spending time with me and that kind of thing.
00:11:56.560 And, you know, took trips with me across the country.
00:11:59.380 And we had a lot of those conversations about what it is to be a man and that sort of thing.
00:12:04.360 But I think that also it was weird because he is such a smart guy and such a patient and gentle guy sometimes.
00:12:12.660 But then he'll just like explode on somebody in traffic or somebody who's like serving us at a restaurant or something.
00:12:18.780 So it's weird.
00:12:20.300 I'm sure everybody has that relationship with their dad where you learned a lot of things that you really want to emulate and say, that's my dad.
00:12:26.600 He is awesome.
00:12:28.260 And then you also take some things away where it's like, man, I don't know.
00:12:31.740 Is every man supposed to be like that?
00:12:33.600 Is that supposed to be a vision of manliness?
00:12:35.220 So obviously you learn both good and bad from your dad.
00:12:41.980 But I think I took mostly the good away for certain.
00:12:45.820 And I'm really thankful that he has made being in my life such a priority.
00:12:49.760 Great.
00:12:50.320 And one of the things we talk about on the side quite a bit is that a lot of men, particularly our age, I'm 26 too, we kind of missed out on all these kind of manly skills that our dads or grandfathers can do.
00:13:02.080 Is there something that your dad can do that you can't do?
00:13:05.760 Yeah, I think the number one is probably navigation.
00:13:09.780 I definitely inherited my mother's sense of direction.
00:13:13.260 She can go somewhere 100 times and then go there for the 101st time and still get lost.
00:13:18.980 And unfortunately, that is the same way with me.
00:13:22.780 And my dad, it really gets him frustrated as anything because he was a pilot.
00:13:27.400 He was a helicopter pilot.
00:13:28.420 So he has this incredibly innate sense of direction where he knows, oh, we're going south, southeast right now.
00:13:35.020 We need to go about 50 paces in order to hit, you know, this certain highway or something like that.
00:13:42.300 And most of the time when I was a kid, even when we drove around the country and things like that, I had my nose in a book.
00:13:48.840 So I really did not inherit any navigational skills.
00:13:53.000 And it's only made worse by the fact that I can just take out my iPhone and use Google Maps now to get anywhere.
00:13:58.420 So I certainly wish that I could do that because I, you know, there's always the thing in the back of my mind where I would get stranded in the middle of the woods during a camping trip.
00:14:07.280 And basically just cling to a tree because I would have no idea where to go.
00:14:11.380 But I think that's certainly an awesome skill that he has that I wish I had.
00:14:15.020 Yeah, iPhones don't work out in the middle of the woods sometimes.
00:14:17.020 Exactly.
00:14:18.640 All right.
00:14:19.100 So here's the last question.
00:14:20.480 What's the hardest thing you've ever done as a man, you know, either emotionally, physically or spiritually or otherwise?
00:14:26.160 Sure.
00:14:28.440 You know, I think probably the hardest thing that I've ever had to do is tell my now wife, Wendy, that I didn't want to be in a relationship with her.
00:14:41.300 And this was actually, it's kind of like a long story with our relationship.
00:14:44.760 She was dating another guy and broke up with him the first summer that I had met her.
00:14:52.140 And the guy that she was dating was really good friends with a lot of my friends.
00:14:57.040 You know, we kind of shared mutual friends.
00:14:58.840 And towards the end of the summer, after it had been a while, she came to me and said, hey, you know, I really like you a lot.
00:15:08.560 I really want to date you.
00:15:09.540 And I really had a mutual feeling about her that, you know, I felt something really strong.
00:15:16.180 But I think because some of my friends had scared me off and maybe because I was scared of something going wrong, I said, no, I really don't want to be in a relationship.
00:15:26.820 And I don't think we can talk or see each other or anything like that.
00:15:32.380 And that was a really hard thing to do.
00:15:35.240 I mean, I don't know.
00:15:37.360 I it's hard to explain now in retrospect, and I'm still trying to explain it to her this day because I ended up seeing her a year later and realizing that, you know, I really thought I felt something strongly for her because I couldn't get her out of my head the whole year that we were apart.
00:15:56.580 But but I think that was probably the hardest thing I've ever had to do.
00:15:59.600 It really put off put into motion a sort of period of just weird emotional turmoil in my life where I couldn't decide what was going on and why I had made that decision.
00:16:10.380 So fortunately, everything still worked out.
00:16:13.340 Fate intervened and we were married today.
00:16:17.240 So that's awesome.
00:16:18.000 I'm glad everything worked out.
00:16:20.060 Exactly.
00:16:20.900 Well, Zeke, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us.
00:16:23.180 Thank you for your time.
00:16:24.540 Absolutely.
00:16:24.960 Thank you, Brett.
00:16:26.580 And until next week, stay manic.
00:16:56.580 Thank you.
00:17:04.780 Thank you.
00:17:04.980 Thank you.
00:17:05.540 Thank you.
00:17:05.600 Thank you.
00:17:06.580 Thank you.
00:17:07.280 You