The Art of Manliness - Episode #60 The Way Of The SEAL With Mark Divine

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00:00:37.200 All right. So I think at one time or another, every guy has thought about or fantasized about

00:00:57.980 being a Navy SEAL. You watch the movies, you watch those shows on Discovery Channel where you

00:01:03.700 go inside what it's like to train to be a Navy SEAL, what it's like to be a Navy SEAL,

00:01:08.040 and it just looks freaking awesome, but also incredibly difficult. And my always thought is

00:01:12.360 like, is this something that you're just born to do or can a Navy SEAL be created? And also,

00:01:18.720 I mean, can we as civilians, even if you don't plan on being a Navy SEAL, are there lessons we can take

00:01:23.940 from Navy SEALs on how to develop mental toughness, emotional and mental resilience,

00:01:30.360 and sort of that focus and vision that the SEALs are famous for? Well, our guest today

00:01:35.000 is a former Navy SEAL, and he has written a book on that topic, on how civilians can take lessons on

00:01:42.480 mental and emotional resilience, on mental toughness, and apply it to their own life.

00:01:47.200 His name is Mark Devine, and he is the author of the book, The Way of the SEAL. In today's podcast,

00:01:53.360 we talk about The Way of the SEAL and how just average Joes can take lessons from the Navy SEALs 1.00

00:01:59.720 and apply it to their own lives to improve it in every way possible. So stay tuned.

00:02:06.440 All right, Mark Devine, welcome to the show.

00:02:08.900 Hey, thank you very much, Brett. Pleasure to be here.

00:02:10.720 Before we begin, let's talk a little bit about your background, because first, it's so fascinating.

00:02:14.920 And second, it seems like your book, The Way of the SEAL, is a culmination of just these awesome

00:02:21.160 life experiences you've had. So let's start, like, I mean, how did you become a SEAL? Because you sort

00:02:25.480 of had a, it wasn't your typical route to becoming a SEAL. So tell us, how did this all happen?

00:02:32.440 Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, I wasn't, you know, I didn't come out of high school or even

00:02:38.120 college thinking I was going to be a SEAL. In fact, you know, from my upstate New York upbringing,

00:02:42.920 you know, I was pretty much groomed to go into business. My family has a family business that's

00:02:47.340 over 100 years old. And it was just kind of expected that I would get some business experience

00:02:51.960 and then kind of come back and maybe head the charge for the family. And so I did the

00:02:57.640 right things. You know, I went to Colgate University in upstate New York, which is a pretty good

00:03:00.780 liberal arts school. I majored in economics. And I was, you know, an athlete, an endurance

00:03:05.580 athlete during that time. But that didn't really mean much to me at the time. But then when I

00:03:11.580 graduated, I got a job with a firm named Coopers & Library, which is now PricewaterhouseCoopers,

00:03:16.800 which is one of the big eight accounting firms back in the day. It was 1985, believe it or not.

00:03:23.680 And so the job was in Manhattan. So I went down to New York City, and they sent me to NYU to get my

00:03:28.400 MBA. And, you know, I spent a couple of years cranking away, working as an auditor, and then

00:03:34.060 a consultant, and then, you know, getting my MBA at night, and then, you know, sitting for the CPA exam.

00:03:40.360 And so within a short period of time, by the time I was 24, I had an MBA and CPA and was doing all

00:03:44.820 the right things, right, Brett? I'm just like, probably you're going to law school, and then

00:03:48.580 end up, you know, running out of manliness, because you wondered what the hell you went to law school

00:03:52.660 for at some point. Exactly. Right? Well, I kind of wonder what the heck I was doing

00:03:56.820 in that corporate world, because it, you know, I just didn't sit well with me. I didn't really like

00:04:00.840 the people I was around, you know, with all due respect to those folks in that environment.

00:04:05.460 At the time, there was a lot of greed, and, you know, a lot of ego, and, you know, the long hours for

00:04:10.860 really just what amounted to a paycheck, and I didn't, you know, I just had this growing sense

00:04:15.980 of unease. And fortunately, I strolled into a martial arts studio one day, and the, you know,

00:04:24.300 I was completely blown over by the type of training and the type of people that were at the studio.

00:04:29.900 It was called Seido Karate, and so the founder, Tadashi Nakamura was his name, became my first,

00:04:35.920 you know, kind of real mentor in life. And his training was very much of a integrated whole

00:04:41.560 person nature, meaning that, you know, we worked our asses off on the training floor. But then we

00:04:46.120 would sit in meditation, and we would have these discussions, like little, you know, kind of

00:04:50.800 meditation lectures. And also, we went to a few retreats up at the Zen Mountain Monastery in New

00:04:57.160 York. And that work kind of cultivating that, you know, the softer side of myself, I suppose you

00:05:05.780 call it the, you know, the meditation and the, you know, the self-reflection and the awareness

00:05:10.200 development really started to open my mind to, number one, the fact that I was kind of misaligned

00:05:16.160 doing this corporate ladder job. And number two, that I really wanted to go out and challenge myself

00:05:22.180 beyond measure in something that was going to, you know, inspire me and really teach me, you know,

00:05:28.500 leadership and have me lead in kind of messy situations, you know, kind of real visceral type

00:05:33.920 of leadership, which is what, you know, inspired me. And also that that was a physical calling,

00:05:39.300 you know, because I really, you know, I love the physical life. And I obviously didn't appreciate

00:05:43.680 the steady decline I saw of my body and in my peers. And so one day, I was walking down the street,

00:05:52.220 and I saw a poster from the Navy Recruiting Command, and it said, be someone special. And I said,

00:05:59.200 that sounds cool. And it was for the Navy SEALs. And so I really, that's what first inspired me.

00:06:03.700 So I, you know, began to look into it. And one thing led to another and pretty much, you know,

00:06:07.720 decided that I was going to head down that road. And so at 25 years old, I bolted from corporate

00:06:14.320 America and went to Oster Cannon School, then through SEAL training. Of course, there's a lot

00:06:18.480 of steps in between here that I'm leaving out, but I went through SEAL training in 1990 and was in

00:06:24.040 class 170 and loved it. Graduated as a honor man of my class and, you know, never looked back.

00:06:31.460 But then even at, so you, you, but even after you did Navy, the Navy SEAL, you retired. I mean,

00:06:37.100 actually don't really retire, but you know, you stopped doing that. You actually went back to

00:06:41.260 business, right?

00:06:42.260 Right, right. You know, you, I was, I was a 20 year SEAL, but only roughly nine of that

00:06:48.480 was active duty years. And so I went through a, my first stint was seven years. My marriage to

00:06:54.640 Sandy, who was a Coronado girl, you know, which is the, where the training command is that,

00:06:58.300 that kind of sidetracked my active duty career, you know, it was really difficult. I like to say

00:07:02.940 that if the SEALs had wanted me to have a wife, they would have issued me one because, you know,

00:07:07.360 very, very soon after our marriage, I was gone for like, you know, close to nine months and,

00:07:13.120 you know, through a couple of different deployments. And my wife was freaking out and

00:07:16.660 saying, I'm not sure, you know, I, I thought I understood what I was getting into, but I don't

00:07:21.020 think I can, you know, really hang for a 20 year career like this. And so I was forced to make a

00:07:26.660 choice and I chose, you know, to, to keep the marriage and to get off active duty, but I stayed

00:07:31.720 in the reserves. Uh, there's a few reserve officers, uh, you know, there's a, a few hundred SEAL

00:07:37.800 reservists and, you know, handful of us officers. And so we were able to plug in and do some very,

00:07:42.980 very interesting and important work on the reserve side. So, you know, over the next, uh,

00:07:49.680 11 years, I've, I was mobilized a couple of times to act of duty to go to Iraq and other places.

00:07:54.780 And, you know, I worked at a variety of commands in different positions doing special projects.

00:07:58.680 And so that's how I finished out my 20 years. And, and, you know, during that reserve time,

00:08:03.320 I was able to go back into business, as you said, and, and build a number of, um, of businesses that

00:08:08.540 were, you know, varying degrees of success. You know, I built a microbrewery in, uh, San Diego

00:08:13.220 called the Coronado Brewing Company. That's kicking ass to this day. No longer involved in 0.85

00:08:17.220 that, but I went on to build a, uh, Navyseals.com, you know, which is a community and e-commerce

00:08:21.380 website and my training business called seal fit. And now I'm working on unbeatle mind, which is,

00:08:27.440 um, you know, about training mental, mental and emotional and, you know, spiritual toughness

00:08:34.220 really. Um, so it's been, it's been pretty remarkable career actually. Yeah. So that

00:08:39.900 means it's a, like a Renaissance man. I like that. Yeah. Um, so let's talk a little bit about,

00:08:45.880 uh, your, your, uh, I guess business or your, the training programs you developed, not just

00:08:52.020 for civilians, but for people who are, you know, would be seals. Right. And what's, what I found 0.78

00:08:57.220 amazing is that through your, your programs, um, you know, training programs for buds, you were

00:09:03.680 able to help reduce the attrition rate, like pretty significantly. Right. Well, let's there,

00:09:09.140 we have to, you know, for my, my seal buddies who critique me, I have to be very specific,

00:09:13.880 which we're talking about. So I started back in 2006, I started the nationwide, uh, seal mentor

00:09:21.320 program, which is a, which was a government contract. And, uh, we took in, in the first year

00:09:27.640 alone, we took the pass rate for the candidates, right. Who are going into the Navy wanting to be

00:09:33.440 seals? Gotcha. Took the pass rate from 33% to over 85% on the tests that they took when they show up

00:09:40.180 at bootcamp. So before, before me and the mentor program, 30, only 33% of the candidates even going

00:09:48.060 into bootcamp wanting to be a seal were qualified. And after my first year of that program over 85%,

00:09:55.180 that program, you know, went on and I'm not involved anymore, but that program today has been

00:10:01.320 attributed with, uh, increasing the throughput or set another way, which is the way you said it

00:10:07.380 decreasing the attrition rate by three to 5% at buds training. So that's powerful. But then,

00:10:13.640 then one more thing, you know, because this is a stat I cite in my way of the seal. Sure. Um,

00:10:18.160 I went on to create seal fit, which is for private, you know, citizens who pay me. It's not a government

00:10:25.460 contract. I don't have any, a formal relationship in the Navy, but I have seal candidates and spec ops

00:10:30.100 candidates from around the world who come train with me. And of the seal candidates that come

00:10:35.400 train with me and spend, you know, time at my special ops immersion Academy, which is a three

00:10:39.960 week, you know, live in Academy that ends with a simulated hell week experience called Kikoro camp.

00:10:45.380 So the guys who want to be seals who come, you know, invest that amount of time with me,

00:10:49.400 I have, they have over a 90% success rate getting through seal training. So those are the two different

00:10:55.000 stats. One is the stat from when I actually was hired by the Navy. And the other is, you know,

00:10:59.980 the results from the individuals who don't want to be a statistic. Yeah. Yeah. So here's a question.

00:11:06.480 So, I mean, what did you find, like when you went in as a government contractor to help these

00:11:11.440 candidates, you know, just get ready, right? Like what were the candidates doing or not doing

00:11:16.660 that caused them to not succeed? Uh, and what, how did your training change that? I mean, what,

00:11:22.800 what were your observations? My observations is a lot of the guys going into the program and this is,

00:11:29.360 you know, we can translate this conversation to anything in life, anything challenge,

00:11:33.860 challenging, right? Uh, the seals just tend to, you know, are one of the more challenging things

00:11:38.700 you can choose to do in life, right? Well, many of them had a very, there are two, two ways. They,

00:11:44.900 they didn't prepare properly because they didn't adequately, uh, research and understand the

00:11:51.200 magnitude of the task that they were going to undertake. Right. And so, you know, maybe they spent too

00:11:56.980 much time watching, uh, seal stuff on TV or in a video game and they didn't really get out and,

00:12:01.940 and do things like come to my training and, and find a seal mentor and really get out there and

00:12:07.160 spend a good two or three years preparing for it because that's really what it takes.

00:12:11.600 So that was one. And the other thing is they had an unrealistic, um, expectation or view of their own,

00:12:17.220 um, competency. Right. And so they really did. They lacked the awareness to understand their

00:12:23.740 weaknesses, to understand, you know, um, the, the mental shortcomings and to really do the work to,

00:12:30.720 to shore up their, you know, chances of success and, and to inoculate themselves against failure.

00:12:36.840 So both, both of those are, you know, with the right training and guidance are easily overcome,

00:12:42.620 right? You can, you can learn how to prepare properly for anything. I mean, you and I could go

00:12:46.740 climb Mount Everest, but we're not going to get on the plane and go tomorrow. Right. And same thing with

00:12:51.420 seal training. And then, you know, as part of that training, you've got to understand,

00:12:54.520 you know, where your weak points are, where are you going to break, you know, and then you close

00:12:59.300 those openings so that those are strong and then it's okay for you to focus on your strengths so

00:13:04.340 that you can accelerate, but you got to at least close the openings for those weaknesses.

00:13:08.960 Yeah. That, that second, um, observation you made that everyone, you know, overestimates their

00:13:13.640 competency. That's that gets us. Everyone thinks they're above average, right? Right.

00:13:18.200 But that's not possible. It's not, you know, it's really, this brings up a really interesting

00:13:22.580 thing. I've been toying around with Lumosity, which is, you know, brain training. I'm sure

00:13:26.280 you're familiar with that. And, you know, I, I honestly, you know, I, I do a lot of mental

00:13:29.880 training and, you know, I'm a former Navy SEAL and have an MBA and everything. And so I,

00:13:34.780 you know, I ripped through a few rounds of Lumosity and I'm like, man, I must be doing great.

00:13:39.020 You know, and then I checked myself against the standards and I'm like below 50% on every one of them.

00:13:44.820 I'm like, what the hell? Like, you just made me feel like a dunce. Yeah. I better start 0.99

00:13:50.040 training, you know? Yeah. That's really funny. To your point, you know, everyone overestimates.

00:13:54.800 Everyone estimates. And I think maybe there's also, um, I guess a popular conception that like,

00:14:00.400 you know, Navy SEALs are born, not made like you either, either got it or you don't. And like,

00:14:05.040 you know, buds, well, there is like the, sort of the filtering factor that determines whether

00:14:09.000 you got it or you don't. Right. That's not true at all. Yeah. You know, physical and mental

00:14:13.500 toughness are developed right now. They can be developed deliberately through training or they

00:14:18.580 can develop by your life circumstances, but either way they're developed. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So let's

00:14:24.020 talk, uh, let's get into your book, the way of the SEAL, um, because basically you take all these life

00:14:27.920 experiences from your martial arts training to your experience, uh, serving as a Navy SEAL, um,

00:14:33.940 your experience as a entrepreneur, and you sort of set out these principles and lay out these

00:14:40.000 principles. And one of the, what I found interesting is that as I was reading it, I, I'm really into

00:14:44.500 this stuff, right? I'm, I'm all into like, you know, building your mental resilience and meditation.

00:14:48.880 And I was reading, I was reading, I was thinking, you know, a lot of people could read this and,

00:14:52.440 you know, pick it up and they thought, Oh, this could be like a Navy SEAL book. Hoorah.

00:14:56.060 But you know, a lot of people would read it and be like, this is sort of woo woo. It's like,

00:14:58.960 you know, visualization, developing your intuition. Right. Um, but what I, what I found is

00:15:05.000 interesting is I, it seems like the military is actually sort of embracing this mental development.

00:15:10.000 They are. Yeah, very much so. And so, I mean, can you talk about that a little bit? I mean,

00:15:14.340 did your, um, the principles you laid out sort of the mental development,

00:15:18.700 did you see some of that, um, used in the military or is that, you're just starting to

00:15:23.400 see that develop now what's going on there? Um, the answer is both. It was not prevalent at all.

00:15:29.880 When I went through training, having said that back in the, you know, eighties, there were a couple

00:15:35.880 projects that were, you know, kind of forerunners of what's, what we see happening on a broader scale

00:15:41.080 today. Uh, the Trojan horse project is a good example where they took some seals and green berets 0.90

00:15:45.820 and they trained them in meditation and Aikido and, you know, awareness practices and, you know,

00:15:52.440 tested them over the six month period. And they found that they were more resilient. They were more

00:15:56.920 focused, they were calmer and they were performing better. Right. And, you know, of course,

00:16:01.660 those programs ended up getting scrapped when, you know, um, it just was deemed as impractical.

00:16:07.480 And all it takes is one guy, one skeptic to strike a pen, pen through that. And so they didn't really

00:16:12.580 go anywhere, but I remember reading about those and thinking about those early on when I went into

00:16:17.000 the seals and because of my martial arts experience before the seals and my experience with meditation,

00:16:22.660 I, I understood that advanced warrior traditions from many cultures throughout history had used

00:16:29.220 a combination of hard and soft training to develop warriors. And, and I, I figured, you know, why,

00:16:35.600 why should I be any different? Even if the seals weren't actively teaching me this stuff, I continued

00:16:41.940 to train and on my own. And, and there were a few other people in the teams that were, you know,

00:16:48.180 had the same warrior ethos that, uh, were developing themselves along these ways. And having said that

00:16:54.820 the nature of special ops really is, you know, so, um, you know, there's a couple aspects that

00:17:01.100 really, really support that type of training, for instance. Um, and most notably is that you're

00:17:07.160 really spend a lot of time in silence in the spec ops community. You can imagine that, right? We have

00:17:11.780 to sneak everywhere we get. And, you know, if you, if you get caught, basically you screwed up or,

00:17:16.200 you know, you might spend like for me, you know, 10 hours in a submarine, you know,

00:17:21.060 a mini submarine surrounded by a cone of cold water. Uh, the only thing you can hear is your

00:17:26.840 breathing. Well, then you tend to get, you know, you can either just waste that time and get to the

00:17:32.500 target and do your op, or you can use that time to condition yourself mentally and emotionally and,

00:17:38.140 you know, do some training, right. That, that internal training, like concentration and deep

00:17:42.620 breathing and stuff like that. And so, you know, there's a lot of opportunity to develop,

00:17:47.000 you know, and a lot of the guys do develop deep intuition and some of those other aspects that

00:17:53.340 come out of that type of training. And the SEALs tend to be very instinctual, intuitive

00:17:57.400 and accelerated learners because of the nature of the, uh, operations and the training that they go

00:18:03.140 through. Interesting. Yeah. And then one more thing, you know, I want to do say is today, um,

00:18:09.320 first of all, you know, I've trained, you know, hundreds of, of SEALs now who are in the forest

00:18:14.180 have gotten through and they've all been doing yoga and visualization and breathing practices,

00:18:18.940 you know, since I trained them. And so, you know, and they're now leading teams. And so it's become

00:18:24.000 a lot more common. And I know a bunch of Marines who are being, you know, getting trained in yoga

00:18:28.760 and mindfulness. And then there's some tests going on. In fact, uh, Doug Johnson is a Dr. Doug Johnson

00:18:34.240 was with us, uh, worked with me at our SEALs fit training center as an athlete. And now he's with

00:18:39.560 like a Naval Health Research Lab or something like that. And they, they're actually testing

00:18:44.060 the effects of meditation and breath control and visualization on active duty SEALs. So there's a

00:18:50.500 few, you know, very, um, you know, interesting and, um, you know, optimistic type projects going on

00:18:58.460 where, you know, I think, you know, the, the prevailing view is that within 10 years that this type of

00:19:03.780 training will be commonplace in the military. Yeah. Um, we've actually, I did a, an article about that

00:19:08.780 sort of researching like biofeedback in the military and they're hoping not only does it

00:19:12.100 make them makes, make people better soldiers, um, but it could also help with the PTSD that's

00:19:18.500 become very prevalent. And that's where it all started initially. It's like, oh, the, the rehabilitation

00:19:23.640 of the warriors coming back, but then, you know, there, there was also another interesting thing

00:19:28.560 with a lot of the EOD guys coming back saying that they, you know, reporting, you know, really

00:19:33.240 intuitive experiences or, you know, insight experiences where they could, you know, sense that

00:19:38.300 there was a, a bomb in the road right ahead, or they could see, you know, have a image of it being

00:19:43.500 placed by someone. And then they started to pay attention to these and it saved a lot of lives.

00:19:48.200 And so the, uh, uh, another, I'm not sure which, you know, group in the Navy is studying this,

00:19:53.340 but they're really studying intuition and the role that played in the, in the combat warrior as well.

00:19:58.200 And so it's going to be both, um, you know, from the post recovery, you know, using the tools to

00:20:04.940 help facilitate recovery from PTSD, but also, you know, in the training phase to make the warrior

00:20:10.880 more resilient and more aware and to be able to handle the chaos and the confusion a lot better.

00:20:17.620 Very cool. Uh, so let's talk about some of your specific principles. The ones that really leaped

00:20:21.420 out to me while I was reading the book was the first one was, uh, you have to establish your set

00:20:25.360 point, right? You know, what is your set point? Why is that so important that you do that first?

00:20:30.840 Well, one of the things that again, was powerful about the SEAL experience is that we, we had, um,

00:20:37.640 we very clearly understood where we were at because of the training, right? The training,

00:20:42.720 you know, itself, um, baselined us and we could see where we were at compared to our peers and

00:20:49.360 where we were at compared to where we needed to be to operate at an elite level. And so, you know,

00:20:53.840 the delta between, uh, where we're at and where we needed to be was, was measured. And then a roadmap

00:21:00.240 was created so that we can get from here to there. And of course there was to be able to accomplish a

00:21:07.100 Navy SEAL, you know, mission set. Um, and so this idea, you know, what, what I carried forward into

00:21:13.800 the way of the SEAL and that I try to teach people is that, you know, in order to know where you want

00:21:18.060 to go in life, you know, if you can radar lock on your, on your future mission and your purpose in

00:21:22.860 life or your purpose, and then the mission's kind of tied to that purpose, that's really powerful,

00:21:27.040 but you can't get there until you also know where you are today. Right. And that's your set point.

00:21:32.620 And the elements of the set point are to be very, very clear about your, uh, what you're passionate

00:21:37.760 about and what your principles are. And those principles then are going to be like guardrails

00:21:42.300 that guide you, uh, and hold you steady as you, you know, progress toward, you know, that future

00:21:49.460 mission and, and, uh, you know, future state that you're looking for. So the set point is like

00:21:55.020 looking deep within yourself and determining, okay, where am I right now? What are, what are

00:21:59.520 my passions? What are my purpose? What is my principles? Where do I stand? What are the

00:22:05.020 skills and knowledge that I possess and what do I need to develop in order to get where I want to go

00:22:10.100 in life? Yeah. I like that idea of figuring out where you are first, before you begin, uh, sort of

00:22:15.120 takes away the illusion of that I'm above average, right? Exactly. Yeah. I mean, everyone's got unique

00:22:20.780 skills and stuff, but if you really want to, um, to break through to another level and to live an

00:22:26.160 incredible life, uh, you know, you have to step back and acknowledge that, you know, you're probably

00:22:31.200 operating at, at just a fraction of a percentage or at a, you know, at least a small percentage of

00:22:36.960 your potential. Yeah. And that potential is ever expanding as we deepen our own awareness and our

00:22:42.380 creativity opens up and we start to use, you know, the full capacity of our human intelligences.

00:22:48.460 And I say that with a plural S, you know, intelligences. So you have to have a pretty

00:22:53.360 honest and humble acceptance of where you are today so that you can start, uh, driving forward.

00:22:59.660 Yeah. And that can be really hard. It can be, it can be very hard, but it's, it's worth it in the end.

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00:24:00.120 at checkout to save 15% off on your first purchase. And now back to the show.

00:24:05.080 So, okay, like after you establish your step point, then you start talking about some,

00:24:08.760 what I love about it, what the way this feels all about, and it's something I'm loving,

00:24:11.940 because I'm constantly working on this, is developing mental toughness, developing emotional and mental

00:24:16.900 resilience. And so, I mean, what are some specific tactics? We talked about meditation,

00:24:22.300 but beyond meditation, what are some other specific things that people can do to develop

00:24:27.900 that sort of mental resilience? Right. You know, mental toughness and

00:24:32.060 emotional resiliency are like two sides of the same coin, right? And so emotional resiliency

00:24:37.920 really is best developed through challenging yourself, putting yourself in circumstances

00:24:45.700 that are very uncomfortable, you know, learning to take some risks and to put yourself out there.

00:24:51.260 And, you know, that's, that causes you to, and that doesn't have to be physical, right? It can be,

00:24:57.240 you know, it can be a task or a skill like jumping out of an airplane or, you know, just engaging in,

00:25:02.640 you know, really difficult conversations that are hard for some, you know, for a guy to engage in.

00:25:07.720 And so you've got to take risk and you've got to open yourself up and, and that develops emotional

00:25:11.800 awareness and emotional resiliency. Another thing that develops resiliency is really having a,

00:25:19.340 really taking your eyes off yourself and putting them on others, you know, and this is another area,

00:25:25.200 again, that guys can be slow to the bat on, right? Be, you know, to, you know, women, you know, 1.00

00:25:31.100 typically are quicker to be able to serve others. That's the way they're wired. But when a,

00:25:35.860 when, when men can start to take their eyes off themselves and put themselves, you know,

00:25:39.820 put their eyes on their teammate and really seek to serve their teammate and to honor

00:25:44.340 teammate, you know, this is a powerful concept for Navy SEALs because we learned to rely on our

00:25:52.640 teammates with our lives. And so, you know, I had to trust you in order to trust you, I had to be

00:25:57.200 trustworthy and, you know, by me taking care of you, I understand that you're implicitly going to

00:26:02.920 take care of me. And so if I had a, a platoon of, you know, 16 SEALs and I'm, I'm watching out for

00:26:07.940 15 of them, well, there's 15 guys watching out for me. How cool is that? You know, that is really

00:26:13.200 cool. That's a powerful way to develop emotional resiliency. Mental toughness. There's a whole bunch

00:26:17.480 of, you know, really cool things that we could talk about, but one of the, one of the most powerful

00:26:21.540 ones is to, you know, you keep your, your front site focused on your major goal or your mission,

00:26:26.700 but then you, when it comes to the day-to-day tasks, you chunk it down into micro goals and

00:26:31.900 really achievable bite-sized chunks that you can, you know, bite off, have a success, you know,

00:26:38.480 note the success, develop momentum and confidence around those small successes. And then, you know,

00:26:43.880 pretty soon you've already achieved the big one without even thinking about it.

00:26:46.840 Yeah. Very cool. I love that point about developing emotional resilience, uh, you know,

00:26:51.180 focusing on others because, um, right now we're, I'm doing a series of articles about attention,

00:26:55.340 right? The science of attention. And one of the things that we've discovered or research has

00:26:59.280 discovered is that whenever we start thinking about ourselves, sort of like that, you know,

00:27:03.840 going inward and just think about ourselves, like we tend to focus on the negative, right?

00:27:08.100 And that's what our brain does automatically. We have that bias. Um, so yeah, once you start

00:27:13.240 thinking about yourself, you start thinking about, you start getting down, you turn into an Eeyore basically.

00:27:16.840 Um, and what they say is that once you start, like the research has done, like they've done the MRI

00:27:21.240 scans of the brain, that once people start thinking about others, that negativity, those that, you

00:27:26.220 know, the place in our brain, that sort of flashes negativity to goes away, it silences, it quiets

00:27:30.480 down. It does. Yeah. Well, you can't, you know, it's a, it's the ultimate act of positivity,

00:27:35.060 right? When you, when you're taking care of someone else, when you're serving someone else,

00:27:38.720 you, you, the act is positive in, by its very nature. And so it, you know, it eradicates or

00:27:44.800 shuts off any negativity, both emotionally and thought wise in your, in your body, in

00:27:50.500 your mind. So you're right. You know, let me talk about that whole point you just brought

00:27:54.920 up. You know, we do have these two sides to our lives, the intentional, which is basically

00:28:03.860 just our own thoughts and feelings and desires. And then the attentional, as you said, which

00:28:10.120 is, you know, how we focus on others and how we interact with the others. I call those two

00:28:15.360 spheres, the I and the we, right? The we is the team and the attention and the, and the,

00:28:19.700 or the I is the intentional. That's just me. And then the we is the attentional. Now, one

00:28:25.060 of the keys to mental toughness is to learn to interrupt and to shift that negativity bias

00:28:32.820 and to acknowledge it and to interrupt it and shift it. And that, you know, that takes a little

00:28:37.660 bit of practice, right? And so the tools that we teach to basically become intentionally

00:28:45.500 positive to where it's mostly, I'm not going to suggest that you can 100% be positive because

00:28:52.180 I don't think that's really realistic because you write that the human brain is wired and

00:28:56.100 to, you know, always be on guard for, for danger. And your amygdala takes that information

00:29:02.760 and process everything. And it's got a negativity bias, but you can, and I've proven through my,

00:29:06.980 in my training, you can be aware of it and create a nice gap between the arising of that negative

00:29:14.220 response and your reaction to it. And so within that gap, you have a choice to essentially shift

00:29:21.400 fire and to cancel that out and to move toward positive territory. That's one of the things I

00:29:26.680 teach. So intentionally, it's very powerful to maintain, you know, to learn how to maintain

00:29:33.760 what I call positivity, which is a positive mental dialogue and a positive imagery and

00:29:38.500 a positive emotional state. And when you do this, it tends to supercharge your performance

00:29:43.680 because you are able to, you know, really affect others a little bit more positively from an example

00:29:50.100 standpoint. Even if you're not in an attentional stage or, you know, working with another team,

00:29:55.120 your attitude, your, you know, your optimism, all these things are going to be attractive to the

00:30:03.300 right kind of people and are going to, you know, put you in their leadership role because you're

00:30:08.600 motivating, right? And you're optimistic. And so part of being a great leader is to, to be both

00:30:15.840 intentionally positive and attentionally positive. Does that make sense?

00:30:20.580 Yeah. That makes sense. So, yeah. Well, so this sort of leads me to my next question. Um, sort of

00:30:24.980 that, you know, being aware of that negativity bias or being aware of just what's going on in your,

00:30:30.900 your mind and your body. Um, so I'm not, I'm not a law enforcement, I'm not a military, but like,

00:30:36.660 I, I do sort of like, I love learning about tactical stuff. And one of the things I learned

00:30:40.980 about is the, the Cooper color code, uh, which you cover, which is sort of like a, for those of you

00:30:45.320 don't know, it's sort of a, a color code that this one, I guess a gunfighter, right. And one of the

00:30:50.020 best gunfighters who really revolutionized gunfighting in America, um, developed to

00:30:55.040 sort of be the sort of like situational awareness. Right. Um, so how do you apply that to a civilian?

00:31:01.980 I mean, cause it seems like it's just like, if you got a gun, okay, I'm on yellow, you know,

00:31:06.760 or I'm on red, like how, how can you apply that just to a guy who is not caring?

00:31:11.280 Well, a lot of it's, you know, about, uh, again, coming back to developing, um, awareness,

00:31:17.280 you, you call it situational awareness. I'm going to go back to the, what I was just talking about.

00:31:20.920 Situational awareness is awareness of what's going on around you in the situation you're around.

00:31:25.020 Well, in order to have situational awareness around you, you also have to have situational

00:31:30.220 awareness of what's going on inside of you. And if you're, you know, a great, great example that I

00:31:34.900 like to use is my trainees, you know, how many times have you gone shopping? Right. And, you know,

00:31:40.540 some, some women or guy literally is so unaware of you that they literally run their cart right 1.00

00:31:46.440 into you. Right. And, you know, that practically happens to me every time I go to a shopping,

00:31:50.960 uh, you know, you know, whatever I go to a store. And so they're clearly not situation aware. Now,

00:31:57.180 what I, what I teach, um, my trainees is that, you know, the color code system, you know,

00:32:02.740 white is ignorance, yellow is passive alertness. Okay. And passive alertness is the state that we want 0.94

00:32:09.240 to develop to be always in. Now, it doesn't mean you're going around like, you know, sneaking

00:32:13.720 around corners and you're some paranoid nut. No, it just means that you, you're always scanning.

00:32:19.080 It's like you've activated a radar scan and your scan is, um, you know, out there and it's active.

00:32:25.360 It's, it's looking for threats externally and internally. And it doesn't mean you're not having

00:32:30.420 a good time and stuff, but you don't let your guard down. You know, for instance, you go into a

00:32:35.080 restaurant at night and you scan the environment before you go in and you just look for

00:32:38.640 anything unusual and you want to sense, is there anything unusual? Do you get a sense of,

00:32:43.400 you know, something being off and 99% of the time you're not going to have any sense. So,

00:32:48.720 you know, walk into the restaurant, but instead of just sitting next to the door with your back to

00:32:52.500 the door and start pounding beers or a glass of wine or something, you, you move to the rear of

00:32:57.600 the restaurant, position yourself with your back to the wall. So you can see the entrance and you can

00:33:02.040 scan the environment and, and then just have a good time, but, you know, maintain control of your

00:33:07.620 situation because you're out in public. And when anytime you're out in public, you know, you want

00:33:10.640 to be a little bit more cautious and a little bit more alert than if you're behind a locked door

00:33:15.980 in your home. Right. And so you're always have that state of yellow, you know, using Cooper's system

00:33:21.820 of yellow passive alertness. Right. Now let's say using this restaurant example, you know, some big

00:33:27.820 burly dude comes marching through the front door and he's starting to move toward you. And you're

00:33:33.700 sitting there with your wife and son and he's coming straight toward you. Now, all of a sudden

00:33:37.340 you're going to start to, you're going to jack up from yellow to what's called orange, which is active

00:33:42.280 alert. And now orange is like preparing for action, ratcheting up the DEF CON, you know, from DEF CON

00:33:49.660 four to two maybe. And you don't know what this guy's intentions are. You don't have any clue yet.

00:33:56.100 It seems like danger is coming your way. Right. A loud noise would do this for people. You know,

00:34:01.560 if you hear a car crash or screech and all of a sudden, you know, that's when people go from,

00:34:05.960 you know, either white to orange in their normal life. Well, I'm suggesting, you know,

00:34:09.840 you stay in this data level and you go to orange when necessary. Now, in my example, let's say this

00:34:16.300 guy is coming toward you. Then he smiles, turns and walks into the bathroom. Yeah. Well, you might

00:34:24.260 go back down to the yellow at that point, or you might stay in orange until you see him leave the

00:34:29.540 bathroom and depart the restaurant. But my point is you're, you're still ready for action. Now

00:34:34.060 you're a little bit more relieved that he didn't, you know, didn't take action. He didn't have to

00:34:38.200 escalate you to red, which is, you know, some sort of massive action is going to happen. Yeah.

00:34:44.420 So I say, I guess the point of it is just, uh, remind, it's a way to remind yourself like not to

00:34:48.720 be passive in life. Right. It's not, it's part of it is just to think through it and be like,

00:34:54.120 oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I want to, I want to be more alert. But then in the book,

00:34:57.620 I also have drills to, to really develop that alertness, right. To develop the sensitivity to

00:35:04.060 your, you know, intuitive self and to develop an awareness of your surroundings. And those are

00:35:09.160 the things that we taught or we trained for actively in the seals. Very good. So another

00:35:13.820 thing throughout the book, you kind of mentioned this, uh, earlier in the podcast, but, um, throughout

00:35:18.000 the book, you mentioned 20 X challenges as a way, you know, you need to plan for those. I mean,

00:35:22.380 so what are 20 X challenges and, you know, how do they help forge mental toughness?

00:35:27.600 Right. You know, to preface this, you know, we, as human beings, we grow through challenge

00:35:32.500 and you and your listeners are very aware of that. And it's probably a big part of what

00:35:35.680 you encourage people to do is to get out and challenge yourself. You know, if you can't

00:35:39.260 do pull-ups and get on the pull-up bar and freaking, you know, challenge yourself to be

00:35:42.560 able to do 10 pull-ups. Right. Um, and so we grow through challenge. Well, interesting thing

00:35:48.380 about the human experience is if you don't go for the challenge, if you don't go after

00:35:52.120 it, then the challenge will find you anyways. And oftentimes we'll find you unprepared.

00:35:57.280 Right. And so that can be in the form of an accident or an illness or, you know, death

00:36:02.200 of a loved one. And now you've got to go through it, but you're not prepared. So what, you know,

00:36:06.320 the 20 X concept is that first of all, you're capable of so much more than you think you

00:36:10.600 are, but you're not going to find it unless you challenge yourself. So go out and find a

00:36:15.200 challenge that's going to prove to you that you're capable of 20 times more than you think

00:36:18.700 you are. You know, for me, the Navy SEAL hell week was such a challenge. Now I don't expect

00:36:23.040 everyone to go join the SEALs and go through hell week, right? Obviously that's not realistic.

00:36:27.520 So, you know, you want to find challenges that are appropriate for your skill level and comfort

00:36:33.820 level and physical, you know, aptitude, but then, you know, you want these challenges to

00:36:38.400 grow in their magnitude. So you're constantly growing. So good examples like physically, you

00:36:43.220 know, if, if the, if your listeners are into physical training, you know, some of the challenges

00:36:47.540 that I have my athletes do is like, okay, well let's do a thousand pushups for time.

00:36:52.100 Wow.

00:36:53.160 You know, and last time I did this, it's been a couple of years, I did it in 39 minutes,

00:36:56.780 you know, which was cool because that was, you know, that made me feel good. And I knew

00:37:00.520 that, wow, you know, I've still got it, you know, and at 49 years old, then I could still

00:37:05.680 do a thousand pushups in 49 minutes or 39 minutes. And it was very, very gratifying for the,

00:37:11.680 you know, one of the guys who I was doing it with, who did it an hour and 10 minutes,

00:37:14.580 but he finished it. And when he finished it, you know, he felt great about himself and it

00:37:20.920 wasn't something that he would have done. You know, it wasn't, you know, not everyone

00:37:24.140 just thinks, well, I'm going to do a thousand pushups right now, but you know, how empowering

00:37:28.040 is that?

00:37:29.180 Yeah.

00:37:29.720 You know, so we have a whole, I have a whole host of recommendations in the book and it

00:37:32.940 doesn't have to be physical, right? Can be, you know, like a reference earlier ago,

00:37:36.740 my stepdaughter, Catherine just went and did a, um, a tandem free fall jump. She'd always wanted 0.99

00:37:41.760 to do it. And finally she's like, I'm going to go do this. And man, did she have a ball?

00:37:44.960 And so now she can't wait to get back and to try like her own, you know, static line,

00:37:49.020 which is without the tandem guy and then something else. So that was a 20 X challenge

00:37:53.040 for her. And it expanded her sense of, you know, aliveness and, um, you know, ability

00:37:59.620 to be in control of, of her life.

00:38:02.380 Now, is it a 20 X challenge, something you do like on a weekly basis or like quarterly?

00:38:06.460 I mean, how often should you plan for these? I mean, should they be in our, should

00:38:09.660 it be like really big, I guess. I mean, I guess the idea is they're supposed to push

00:38:12.540 you, right?

00:38:13.480 Right. Well, the way I, you know, what works for me and what I think is really useful is

00:38:18.280 to have small, small challenges that you hit up every week. And then you have, you know,

00:38:23.420 a little bit bigger challenge that you hit up, you know, either quarterly or twice a year.

00:38:27.540 And then, you know, to schedule and plan for like a major 20 X challenge every year to year

00:38:34.680 and a half, you know what I mean? That would be like that, you know, go climb McKinley or,

00:38:38.420 you know, go to what our 20 X challenge that people do with seal fit. My company is what's

00:38:43.580 called Kokoro camp and Kokoro camp is 50 hours of nonstop physical training and it's modeled after

00:38:51.380 hell week. And so I, you know, you give people a taste of hell week, but you know, our main thing

00:38:56.600 is to help you get through it and to, to develop your mental toughness and your, you know, emotional

00:39:01.740 resiliency, not to just have you quit. And so we try to get you through it. About 80% of the people who do

00:39:06.480 it will make it as opposed to the seal training, which is 80% don't make it. So that's an example

00:39:11.820 of a 20 X challenge that people plan for over a year to a year and a half and train for. And it

00:39:18.680 becomes a big deal for them. And when they come and accomplish it, you know, their life has changed.

00:39:23.640 There's like pre Kokoro and post Kokoro life, just like there was for me and the seals, pre seals and

00:39:29.260 post seals. So I'm sure there's guys listening to this podcast. Um, they're thinking like, man,

00:39:34.740 sign me up. This is awesome. They read the book. Like, this is great. I'm super motivated. But then

00:39:38.520 like, you know, two weeks later they sort of just like, meh, they fall off the wagon. I think that

00:39:42.300 happens to a lot of people with sort of self development, self program. I think it's

00:39:45.440 interesting that your book's called the way of the seal. Right. So, I mean, how do you, how do you

00:39:51.260 help people get past it? I mean, what advice do you have for people who begin some sort of

00:39:54.500 self-improvement programs or building their mental resilience to get past those moments where they're

00:39:59.340 just like, I don't want to do this anymore. This is like too much work. Yeah. There's a couple of things.

00:40:03.720 First of all, you know, in the seals, we took a crawl, walk, run approach to training. You know,

00:40:08.860 we had to basically learn how to crawl when we were shooting or jumping or diving and, you know,

00:40:13.480 there were baby steps. And so, you know, the, the, um, the level of challenge was very doable and we

00:40:19.120 made it very fun. And, you know, we, we found victory where it was at in that crawl stage. And as

00:40:25.320 we were, as we developed our skills and we were more accurate and more confident, then we step it up and

00:40:31.260 run a little bit more and, and work at a little bit more, you know, intensity. And then our, as

00:40:35.920 our competence grew even more, it just kind of began to flow out of us in a more unconscious

00:40:41.100 competency. And so, you know, part of the training is number one is to look at, look at your, um,

00:40:49.240 look at this as a lifestyle and to develop a lifestyle around training yourself for ultimate

00:40:56.540 mastery that, that state of unconscious competence, you know, in many areas of your life to include,

00:41:02.660 you know, physical training and, you know, these mental toughness or mental development skills,

00:41:07.800 but you must begin where you're at, which is understanding your set point. And then,

00:41:12.940 you know, do a little bit every day. And so you can eat an elephant, you know, one bite at a time,

00:41:18.380 and you can master yourself one day at a time. And so instead of looking at the end state and say,

00:41:24.520 Hey, I want to be like coach divine, or I want to be, you know, like Tadashi Nakamura,

00:41:29.940 which was my mentor. You know, I didn't look at that. I just said, I'm going to come in and train

00:41:33.280 hard today and, you know, try to improve myself by 1% today. But, you know, 1% every day improvement,

00:41:40.820 you know, adds up pretty quickly, right. It's ultimately leads to geometric growth.

00:41:45.600 Yeah. But, um, well, and then how do you, but how do you deal with setbacks? Like, say like you

00:41:49.120 wake up one day and like, it just, yeah, you know, you were trying to be like cool,

00:41:53.460 calm and collected, but you couldn't keep it together. And you're just like,

00:41:56.740 cause that happens to me sometimes like, man, I screwed up today. I'm just going to give up,

00:42:00.660 you know? So what, how do you deal with setbacks with like, in the, with the way the seal,

00:42:04.420 uh, method to be attached to, uh, not be attached to the outcomes of those things. Like you do the

00:42:11.880 best you can. And one of my, uh, one of my daily training drills is, is called the evening,

00:42:17.480 uh, ritual. And the evening ritual really is a, it's a look back at your day and then it's a

00:42:22.860 silver line. You find the silver lining. So anything you did, if, if you're, if you're comfortable and

00:42:27.680 happy with the results, you know, you acknowledge that, Hey, I did a good job with that. That was

00:42:31.560 cool. Good. You know, so you're, you're developing confidence, but then anything like you just

00:42:36.440 suggested that, that really didn't sit right with you, like you screwed up or you really embarrassed

00:42:41.640 yourself, you know, that kind of situation where you just want to throw in the towel, you know,

00:42:45.960 you basically look at that and say, you know what, I'm not perfect. I tried my best. What can

00:42:50.080 I learn from that situation? And you will inevitably find a really important lesson when you, uh, when

00:42:57.660 you get out of your own way and say, okay, yeah, that's the lesson there. And so then you clear

00:43:02.580 the ground and you go to, you know, go to bed that night with a victory, you know, so everything

00:43:06.760 was a victory, even your screw ups. And so then, you know, you get up the next day and you do it again,

00:43:11.920 right. And you, and you just do the best you can try to improve by 1%. And then you look back at

00:43:17.040 the end of the evening and say, okay, what, what I do well, what didn't go so well. And then what did

00:43:20.620 I learn from those? And then, so turn the failures into victories and then just keep on rolling forward.

00:43:26.580 And, you know, it tends to be very motivating. You know, you, you really, I call it a lifetime of no

00:43:31.220 regrets, right? In fact, there's a great quote. It's like better to suffer the temporary pain of

00:43:37.120 discipline than a lifetime of regret. And that's one way to do that.

00:43:41.620 That's awesome. Great stuff. Well, thanks. I appreciate the advice. Um, so your book way,

00:43:46.600 the seals is directed at both genders, both men and women. And I know that both men and women can

00:43:50.480 attend your, um, your training camps, right. Um, but is there something specific or a specific

00:43:55.980 benefit that you think men can get from following the way of the seal?

00:44:00.360 Absolutely. You know, I think that, um, what I've noticed in society is that people who find

00:44:07.820 seal fit, it's very much of a aspirational and an inspirational training. And when people start

00:44:13.800 to train the way that I recommend, which is what I call integrated warrior development, 0.96

00:44:19.000 meaning we're actively not just trying to kick your ass, but we're trying to make you a better 0.99

00:44:23.020 human being. And I focus on five human capacities, your physical development as a 0.99

00:44:30.100 human, your mental development, your emotional development, your intuitional development and

00:44:34.860 awareness. I use those two words interchangeably, and then your spiritual development. And we,

00:44:38.860 and we train those through our, um, through our different training methods so that you, uh,

00:44:45.260 develop in a more balanced manner. And it leads to kind of an accelerated growth and a greater sense of,

00:44:53.260 um, being in control. And you feel really good about yourself and you feel like a man,

00:44:59.840 you know, you feel really freaking solid. And a lot of people, you know, look to the seals and say,

00:45:04.740 wow, guys, you're kind of like the modern day Spartans, you know, and it's very aspirational.

00:45:09.860 People think seals are all studs and, you know, physically they are mentally, they're smart,

00:45:14.320 but it's because they train for it. Right. They're not just, you know, we're not just born this way.

00:45:18.980 We've decided that we wanted to be unique and wanted to show up as uncommon in the world. And so we

00:45:24.640 train for it, you know, but if, if a seal gets out of the Navy and stops training,

00:45:28.140 guess what? He's going to backslide until he's kind of common, you know, and I actually know a

00:45:32.360 couple of guys who backslid and got into alcohol and then, you know, they were, they were pretty

00:45:36.980 damn common and miserable. Right. And so it's the training. That's the secret sauce, you know, 0.86

00:45:43.460 and the training in a, in a lifetime manner, you know, it's every day, it's not just for an event

00:45:48.100 and to train in an integrated manner so that you're, you're covering all these capacities. So you don't

00:45:53.660 grow unbalanced and teeter totter over someday. Very good. Well, Mark Devine, this has been a

00:45:58.800 fantastic conversation. Hoo-yah. Thank you for your time. Hoo-yah indeed. Yeah, it's been great. I

00:46:03.980 really appreciate it, man. Our guest today was Mark Devine. Mark is the author of the book,

00:46:07.820 The Way of the Seal, and you can find that on amazon.com. Well, that wraps up another edition

00:46:14.780 of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of

00:46:19.480 Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And if you'd like to support our podcast,

00:46:24.800 really appreciate it. If you would go online to whatever service you use to listen to your podcast,

00:46:29.500 whether it's iTunes or Stitcher or whatever, and give us a rating that'll help us, you know,

00:46:34.560 be exposed to more listeners and help the podcast grow. And so until next time,

00:46:38.280 this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.

The Art of Manliness - April 04, 2014

Episode #60 The Way Of The SEAL With Mark Divine

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