The Art of Manliness - Family Culture and the Sibling Effect

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00:01:13.500 Brett McKay here,

00:01:14.420 and welcome to another edition

00:01:15.460 of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:01:17.780 When we think about what shaped our life trajectory,

00:01:19.980 we often focus on the way our parents raised us.

00:01:22.340 But what about our siblings?

00:01:23.600 What role do they play in who we become?

00:01:25.080 My guest today makes the case that siblings

00:01:27.020 may be just as influential as parents

00:01:28.640 in impacting how we turn out.

00:01:30.440 Her name is Susan Dominus,

00:01:31.640 and she's a journalist and the author of

00:01:33.240 The Family Dynamic,

00:01:34.660 a journey into the mystery of sibling success.

00:01:37.400 Susan and I start our conversation

00:01:38.560 by impacting the broader question

00:01:39.960 of what drives human development more,

00:01:42.040 nature or nurture.

00:01:43.500 We then dig into how siblings shape us,

00:01:45.340 from the impact of birth order

00:01:46.560 to how rivalry can raise our ambitions

00:01:48.360 and alter our life paths.

00:01:49.860 Along the way,

00:01:50.500 we also explore the influence parents

00:01:52.160 do have on their kids

00:01:53.040 and why it may not be as strong

00:01:54.540 as we often think.

00:01:56.180 After the show's over,

00:01:56.840 check out our show notes

00:01:57.480 at awimp.is

00:01:58.440 slash family dynamic.

00:02:13.400 All right.

00:02:14.160 Susan Dominus,

00:02:14.900 welcome to the show.

00:02:16.040 Thank you so much for having me.

00:02:17.320 I'm very happy to be here.

00:02:18.480 So you wrote a book called The Family Dynamic,

00:02:21.040 where you explore how family culture

00:02:24.540 and how siblings affect us,

00:02:27.800 even into adulthood.

00:02:29.220 And you start off the book

00:02:30.160 talking about a childhood memory

00:02:32.020 of having dinner with a friend's family.

00:02:35.180 And you felt incredibly out of place

00:02:38.140 when the father of your friend

00:02:39.700 turned to you

00:02:41.000 and asked you to solve this math problem.

00:02:44.820 How did that moment lead to you

00:02:46.620 researching and writing a book about

00:02:48.480 family culture

00:02:49.200 and the role siblings play

00:02:50.640 in raising each other?

00:02:53.040 Well, I guess I should first say,

00:02:54.700 it's, you know,

00:02:55.040 the book is called The Family Dynamic

00:02:56.440 and it's about the way

00:02:57.500 that siblings affect each other

00:02:59.020 and their paths to success.

00:03:00.760 It is also about the way

00:03:02.360 that parents affect kids.

00:03:04.220 And that moment was really powerful for me

00:03:06.540 because I just really had a sense

00:03:08.620 of how different family cultures could be.

00:03:11.820 And the family culture in that family

00:03:14.740 was very clearly around skill learning

00:03:18.200 and achievement and mental acuity

00:03:20.920 and just a kind of constant teaching environment.

00:03:25.160 And although I grew up in a very, you know,

00:03:27.480 warm and supportive household,

00:03:29.160 that wasn't really the energy in the household.

00:03:31.880 I don't think my parents saw themselves

00:03:33.360 as educators of us.

00:03:36.460 And so on the one hand,

00:03:37.400 I was really relieved to go back home

00:03:39.420 where my parents really just had expected us

00:03:41.580 at least at meals

00:03:42.340 to like chew with our mouths closed.

00:03:44.560 But at the same time,

00:03:45.900 I did think,

00:03:47.280 well, the Goldie Boys are better at math than I am.

00:03:50.020 Is that because they're just better at math?

00:03:52.720 Or is that because they've grown up

00:03:54.140 doing these math problems?

00:03:55.520 And have I been, you know,

00:03:57.960 who could I have been

00:03:58.800 if I had been growing up in a household

00:04:00.700 where we were doing math in our heads,

00:04:03.580 you know, for fun after dessert

00:04:05.640 and talking about current events at the table

00:04:08.640 and just having a slightly more

00:04:10.320 kind of elevated learning environment.

00:04:13.100 You know, it's not for everyone

00:04:14.380 and not every kid would want that,

00:04:16.260 but I was like an eager beaver,

00:04:17.860 little overachiever.

00:04:19.100 And part of me thought maybe I was missing out.

00:04:21.680 Yeah.

00:04:21.820 And you highlight other famous families

00:04:23.880 that had a family culture

00:04:25.520 around the dinner table

00:04:26.380 that might seem like overkill

00:04:29.220 for a lot of families.

00:04:30.040 Like the Kennedys,

00:04:31.180 Joe Kennedy would famously tell his kids,

00:04:33.640 you got to prepare some presentation

00:04:35.640 about this foreign policy thing

00:04:38.740 that we're debating in Congress

00:04:40.520 and present it to the family at dinner.

00:04:43.600 Yeah.

00:04:43.680 And it wasn't just that he had them

00:04:44.920 present to the group.

00:04:46.140 He had all the other siblings prepared too

00:04:48.720 so that they could grill the sibling

00:04:50.740 who was in the, you know,

00:04:51.960 the hot seat that day or that dinner.

00:04:54.000 So, you know, that's how you see,

00:04:55.860 I think, the way that it's hard

00:04:56.940 to separate out sibling dynamics

00:04:58.700 from parent-child dynamics.

00:05:01.280 Like the parent was setting this tone

00:05:03.320 for performance and achievement,

00:05:04.740 but there was also clearly a competition

00:05:07.060 among the siblings

00:05:07.900 that he thought could be used

00:05:09.700 to harness high performance in his kids.

00:05:13.040 Yeah.

00:05:13.160 He wanted his kid

00:05:14.260 or one of his kids to be president.

00:05:16.380 He definitely thought

00:05:17.740 that one of his kids would be president.

00:05:19.280 He definitely thought his firstborn

00:05:21.080 would be president

00:05:21.820 who sadly and tragically died young

00:05:24.100 serving in the military.

00:05:26.260 But it was always a goal.

00:05:27.740 It was always something spoken about.

00:05:29.180 So that also gets at the way

00:05:30.820 that expectations can really play a role

00:05:32.980 in what happens in families.

00:05:34.960 So you're a mother of twins, correct?

00:05:37.240 I am, yes.

00:05:38.780 So how did that parental experience

00:05:40.960 drive your investigation

00:05:42.120 into sibling dynamics?

00:05:43.380 I think that parents of twins,

00:05:47.040 specifically fraternal twins,

00:05:49.020 are experts in realizing personally

00:05:52.340 how much of their children's upbringing

00:05:54.480 is affected by nature

00:05:57.120 and how much of it is really nurture.

00:05:59.440 Because when you have fraternal twins

00:06:01.100 and you are reading them

00:06:02.980 the same stories every single night

00:06:04.820 and you are having

00:06:05.980 the same dinner table conversations

00:06:07.320 and you're sending them

00:06:08.260 to the same preschools

00:06:09.240 and you're feeding them

00:06:09.900 the same broccoli,

00:06:10.760 and one of them turns out to be

00:06:13.740 a tremendous athlete

00:06:15.420 and tennis player.

00:06:16.740 This is theoretical.

00:06:17.600 Neither of my kids

00:06:18.120 plays that much tennis.

00:06:19.200 And the other one of them

00:06:20.500 is obsessed with art.

00:06:23.200 You could say that

00:06:24.140 there is some differentiation

00:06:25.180 going on there,

00:06:26.500 but probably those parents

00:06:28.020 also saw those signs

00:06:29.300 when the kids were really,

00:06:30.500 really little.

00:06:31.360 You know, that like

00:06:31.920 as soon as they could talk,

00:06:33.420 one of them was interested

00:06:34.760 in pictures

00:06:35.560 and wanted to play

00:06:36.660 with paints all the time

00:06:37.840 and the other one

00:06:38.620 couldn't stay away

00:06:39.940 from tennis balls.

00:06:41.020 Like, I mean, in my kids,

00:06:42.380 I think I saw the seeds

00:06:43.360 of who they were so early.

00:06:44.920 So it's a very humbling experience

00:06:46.800 as a parent.

00:06:48.040 You realize you can't take credit

00:06:49.900 for the stuff

00:06:50.480 that you're proud of

00:06:51.460 because maybe the other one

00:06:53.200 doesn't have that quality,

00:06:54.340 but you also can't

00:06:55.660 blame yourself that much

00:06:57.100 for the things that go wrong

00:06:58.560 because you see that

00:06:59.960 so much of who kids are

00:07:01.300 is what they're bringing

00:07:02.280 from the moment they're born.

00:07:03.680 Yeah, I've noticed that

00:07:04.120 with my own kids.

00:07:05.340 I have a son and a daughter

00:07:06.480 and they've had the exact same,

00:07:08.540 I mean, we're going to talk about this.

00:07:09.940 It's probably not the exact same

00:07:11.460 family experience

00:07:12.340 because there's differences

00:07:13.220 whenever you had a second sibling

00:07:15.080 and our lives have changed

00:07:16.600 as we've gotten older

00:07:18.440 as a family.

00:07:19.920 Yeah.

00:07:20.580 But we're doing

00:07:21.540 the exact same thing.

00:07:22.360 We're teaching

00:07:22.680 the exact same things.

00:07:23.520 We have the same rules,

00:07:24.480 but completely different personalities.

00:07:26.900 And there's nothing

00:07:27.680 we can really do about that.

00:07:30.560 Yeah, I think you,

00:07:31.500 so of course,

00:07:32.080 that's really magnified in friends,

00:07:33.540 right?

00:07:33.640 Because you are raising them

00:07:34.640 in real time

00:07:35.320 at the same time too.

00:07:36.780 It's not like,

00:07:37.440 oh, I was a different person.

00:07:38.420 I was two years older

00:07:39.240 when I, you know,

00:07:40.160 I learned some things

00:07:40.940 along the way.

00:07:41.740 Like, you know,

00:07:42.380 it's all happening

00:07:43.320 right in front of you.

00:07:44.940 And I do think it's possible

00:07:46.300 that there are magnifying effects.

00:07:48.320 You know,

00:07:48.440 I think sometimes parents,

00:07:50.040 and there's some research

00:07:50.800 to support this,

00:07:51.540 that they decide

00:07:52.220 one kid is the academic kid

00:07:54.040 and then they shower that kid

00:07:55.820 with encouragement,

00:07:57.020 you know,

00:07:57.360 in academic pursuits,

00:07:59.080 less so the other child.

00:08:00.200 And then you have

00:08:00.860 a kind of cascading effect.

00:08:02.680 Yeah.

00:08:03.000 Or an amplifying effect,

00:08:04.060 I guess you could say.

00:08:05.840 So in this book,

00:08:06.420 The Family Dynamic,

00:08:07.160 you highlight

00:08:07.840 several different families

00:08:09.320 that have managed

00:08:10.520 to produce several

00:08:11.880 highly successful

00:08:13.200 and ambitious adults.

00:08:15.460 Why did you decide

00:08:16.160 to focus on

00:08:16.780 high performer adults

00:08:18.700 and the dynamic

00:08:19.980 they had as kids?

00:08:21.920 You know,

00:08:22.580 the funny thing is,

00:08:23.560 I would say that

00:08:24.340 I'm as interested

00:08:25.040 in like generic achievement

00:08:26.320 as any other,

00:08:27.200 you know,

00:08:27.700 parent in my demographic.

00:08:29.380 I think I'm a little

00:08:30.200 more interested

00:08:31.180 than other people

00:08:31.860 maybe in what makes

00:08:32.720 people defy the odds.

00:08:34.940 What makes people

00:08:35.740 have big,

00:08:37.600 bold thoughts?

00:08:38.500 What makes people

00:08:39.480 feel that they

00:08:41.000 uniquely

00:08:41.920 can bring something

00:08:43.580 to the table

00:08:44.320 that no one else

00:08:45.020 has brought?

00:08:45.840 What makes people feel

00:08:46.800 like they can change

00:08:47.700 the world,

00:08:48.280 have the confidence

00:08:48.920 to feel that way,

00:08:49.800 and then have the skills

00:08:50.640 to go ahead

00:08:51.140 and execute it?

00:08:52.220 So it wasn't a book

00:08:53.000 just about generic achievement.

00:08:54.940 It was really a book

00:08:55.760 about how do you get

00:08:56.980 your kids to dream

00:08:57.880 really big,

00:08:58.800 whatever their talents are?

00:09:00.560 How do you foster

00:09:01.460 that sense of confidence

00:09:02.780 and possibility?

00:09:04.220 I think that's something

00:09:05.280 that I really craved,

00:09:06.800 to be honest,

00:09:07.540 as a kid myself.

00:09:08.940 My parents,

00:09:09.760 my mom in particular,

00:09:10.860 grew up very,

00:09:11.420 very poor

00:09:11.920 and was like a very

00:09:12.720 cautious person

00:09:13.680 and very much a worrier.

00:09:15.120 And just as in some

00:09:16.100 households,

00:09:16.560 I thought like,

00:09:17.140 gee,

00:09:17.360 what would it have been

00:09:17.900 like to grow up

00:09:18.480 in a household

00:09:19.060 where we did math

00:09:20.820 around the table?

00:09:21.840 I think I often thought,

00:09:23.020 what would it be like

00:09:23.600 to grow up

00:09:24.040 in one of those families

00:09:24.880 where there's a sense

00:09:25.640 of irreverence,

00:09:27.060 a sense that just because

00:09:28.480 other people have tried

00:09:29.420 and failed doesn't mean

00:09:30.240 that you won't succeed.

00:09:32.020 I'm very interested

00:09:33.040 in that energy.

00:09:34.700 So besides these

00:09:35.460 living families

00:09:36.240 that you highlight

00:09:36.940 and look at in your book,

00:09:38.100 you also use

00:09:38.900 the Bronte sisters

00:09:40.200 as your go-to family

00:09:41.980 to figure out

00:09:42.820 what makes people

00:09:44.800 or siblings

00:09:45.380 who all have

00:09:46.180 these big ambitions,

00:09:47.120 what makes them tick?

00:09:48.400 For those who aren't

00:09:48.940 familiar with the Brontes,

00:09:50.080 who were they?

00:09:51.280 So there were actually

00:09:52.180 many Bronte siblings.

00:09:53.780 Several of them

00:09:54.320 died young.

00:09:55.040 But the most famous

00:09:56.440 Brontes are

00:09:57.360 the surviving Brontes

00:09:58.680 who were Charlotte,

00:10:00.620 Anne,

00:10:01.360 and Emily Bronte.

00:10:03.540 And Charlotte Bronte

00:10:05.160 wrote Jane Eyre,

00:10:06.140 which is one of the greatest

00:10:06.980 novels of the 19th century.

00:10:08.540 And her sister,

00:10:09.500 Emily Bronte,

00:10:10.200 wrote Wuthering Heights,

00:10:11.400 another great.

00:10:12.540 Anne Bronte wrote

00:10:13.360 a couple of exquisite

00:10:14.320 novels as well

00:10:15.180 that were also

00:10:15.860 really original.

00:10:17.100 I mean,

00:10:17.260 that's what these three novels

00:10:18.220 all had in common

00:10:19.120 is,

00:10:20.340 or these three novelists,

00:10:21.600 I should say.

00:10:22.420 Each of them wrote

00:10:23.340 unique,

00:10:24.540 beautiful works

00:10:25.380 of literature.

00:10:26.380 And each of these books

00:10:28.040 were completely different

00:10:29.420 from each other.

00:10:30.360 Like,

00:10:30.580 they were unique

00:10:31.580 even within the family.

00:10:33.440 You know,

00:10:33.640 Wuthering Heights

00:10:34.160 is this great

00:10:35.040 kind of torrid,

00:10:36.520 romantic,

00:10:37.840 almost supernatural tale,

00:10:39.480 really very gothic.

00:10:40.840 And Jane Eyre

00:10:41.840 has a tremendous amount

00:10:43.100 of realism

00:10:43.620 but is told

00:10:44.180 from the point of view

00:10:45.060 of this very modest

00:10:46.920 and humble

00:10:47.440 and not particularly

00:10:48.180 beautiful governess,

00:10:49.700 which was a perspective

00:10:50.440 that had never really

00:10:51.120 been represented

00:10:51.820 in novel form

00:10:52.960 in just that way.

00:10:53.960 So,

00:10:54.880 the sisters

00:10:55.520 totally influenced

00:10:56.400 each other.

00:10:57.020 They also had a brother

00:10:57.860 who had a huge influence

00:10:58.920 on them

00:10:59.440 and they're

00:11:01.340 probably some of the

00:11:02.180 most famous siblings

00:11:02.920 in history.

00:11:04.260 Yeah,

00:11:04.340 and you talk about

00:11:04.980 how the sisters

00:11:05.680 encourage each other.

00:11:06.880 I forgot which one it was

00:11:08.300 but there was one sister

00:11:09.920 who found the other

00:11:11.140 sisters writing

00:11:11.840 and she told her,

00:11:13.340 hey,

00:11:13.440 this is really good.

00:11:14.580 And at first,

00:11:14.940 the sister was kind of mad

00:11:15.900 like,

00:11:16.120 hey,

00:11:16.200 what are you doing

00:11:17.020 rummaging through my stuff?

00:11:18.180 You know,

00:11:18.340 like that typical sibling spat.

00:11:20.040 But the other sisters

00:11:20.940 had been writing too

00:11:21.800 and they decided that

00:11:22.860 maybe they could

00:11:24.040 get something published

00:11:24.800 if they worked together.

00:11:26.040 That's exactly what happened.

00:11:27.160 Charlotte Bronte,

00:11:28.040 I think,

00:11:28.520 was sort of at her wit's end.

00:11:29.860 She was a bust

00:11:30.540 as a governess.

00:11:31.460 They had all thought

00:11:32.000 that their brother

00:11:32.640 was going to be the one

00:11:33.720 who made it big

00:11:34.720 and by then

00:11:35.320 he was a total burnout

00:11:36.580 addict,

00:11:37.320 unfortunately.

00:11:38.740 And I think Charlotte

00:11:39.980 was trying to figure out

00:11:40.820 what they were going to do.

00:11:41.860 They'd all been avid writers

00:11:43.160 for fun

00:11:43.820 from their very earliest years.

00:11:46.260 And the way the story goes,

00:11:47.660 I mean,

00:11:47.860 who knows if it's true,

00:11:48.660 but she wrote about it

00:11:49.600 in the forward

00:11:50.160 to one of her books,

00:11:51.440 she stumbled on

00:11:52.500 her sister's poetry.

00:11:53.540 This is Emily Bronte's poetry.

00:11:56.040 Thought it was tremendous

00:11:56.900 and realized that

00:11:57.780 if the three sisters

00:11:58.520 combined their poetry,

00:11:59.720 they could get a book out

00:12:00.740 and maybe make a little money.

00:12:02.440 And the book didn't,

00:12:03.320 I think it sold

00:12:03.740 like literally two copies,

00:12:05.000 but it was well-reviewed

00:12:06.060 and I think it gave them

00:12:06.900 the confidence

00:12:07.380 to think they could

00:12:08.140 really keep going.

00:12:09.460 But I always say that

00:12:10.440 from the very beginning,

00:12:11.680 their artistic careers

00:12:12.640 were literally bound up

00:12:14.240 with each other.

00:12:14.800 They were all bound up

00:12:15.860 in the same book

00:12:16.860 and without the three of them,

00:12:18.960 it probably,

00:12:19.480 it wouldn't have happened

00:12:20.160 for any one of them.

00:12:21.740 Yeah,

00:12:21.940 because they're also battling,

00:12:23.320 you know,

00:12:23.480 there are women

00:12:23.860 in the 19th century

00:12:24.780 and there's the expectation

00:12:25.880 like,

00:12:26.200 well,

00:12:26.580 you don't write.

00:12:27.340 Like your goal

00:12:28.140 is to become a mother,

00:12:30.060 a wife,

00:12:31.040 and their father,

00:12:32.080 it seems like their father

00:12:32.960 kind of inculcated,

00:12:34.260 you know,

00:12:34.400 be ambitious,

00:12:35.480 but for women,

00:12:36.280 your ambition

00:12:36.880 is to be an awesome

00:12:37.780 wife and mother.

00:12:39.520 I think that's exactly right.

00:12:40.580 You know,

00:12:40.760 on the one hand,

00:12:41.240 he encouraged them

00:12:42.360 to read widely,

00:12:43.420 much more widely

00:12:44.100 than most men

00:12:45.220 encouraged young women

00:12:46.200 to read at the time

00:12:47.100 and he himself

00:12:47.760 loved to write

00:12:48.720 even though he wasn't

00:12:49.400 terribly good at it.

00:12:50.560 He had other skills,

00:12:52.160 but he definitely,

00:12:53.280 from what we can tell

00:12:54.080 from correspondence,

00:12:56.220 he seemed to encourage them

00:12:57.640 really to focus

00:12:58.860 on the practical

00:12:59.780 and was afraid

00:13:00.580 of his daughters

00:13:01.700 getting entirely lost

00:13:03.000 in a dream world

00:13:03.860 both of fiction

00:13:04.620 and a dream world

00:13:05.500 of unrealistic ambitions

00:13:07.440 for themselves.

00:13:08.500 Yeah,

00:13:08.620 so the sisters had to,

00:13:09.900 they were relying

00:13:10.640 on each other

00:13:11.220 to be each other's

00:13:12.260 boosters for this.

00:13:13.600 No one else

00:13:14.180 was encouraging

00:13:14.740 those young women

00:13:15.480 to be writers

00:13:16.180 particularly,

00:13:17.000 no.

00:13:17.540 Yeah.

00:13:17.880 So you talk about

00:13:18.580 the Brontes

00:13:19.060 as a way of showing

00:13:19.880 how both someone's

00:13:20.880 siblings and parents

00:13:22.360 can shape their life trajectory

00:13:23.980 and we're going to talk

00:13:25.180 about both of those

00:13:26.220 influences today,

00:13:27.340 but let's first

00:13:28.240 take a step back

00:13:29.300 and look at the central

00:13:30.540 question of your book,

00:13:31.880 which is,

00:13:33.280 how much influence

00:13:34.320 does a child's

00:13:35.200 environment or upbringing

00:13:36.780 really have

00:13:38.100 on how they turn out

00:13:38.980 anyway?

00:13:39.780 I mean,

00:13:39.920 that's the question.

00:13:40.600 It's the old

00:13:41.040 nature versus nurture debate.

00:13:42.700 But after pouring

00:13:44.220 over the research

00:13:44.940 and talking to experts,

00:13:46.300 what conclusion

00:13:47.280 did you reach

00:13:47.960 on that question?

00:13:49.540 The easiest way

00:13:50.140 to put it

00:13:50.640 is that 50%

00:13:52.380 of the difference

00:13:53.100 among individuals

00:13:54.080 can be explained

00:13:55.220 by nurture

00:13:55.680 and 50%

00:13:56.440 of that difference

00:13:57.000 can be explained

00:13:57.560 by nature.

00:13:58.360 What people get wrong

00:13:59.560 is that they think

00:14:00.380 that nurture

00:14:01.320 is basically parenting.

00:14:02.820 So they overemphasize

00:14:04.320 the role of parenting

00:14:05.220 and put it right up there

00:14:06.480 with like nature,

00:14:07.540 meaning how you were born

00:14:08.560 and what you came

00:14:09.160 into the world with.

00:14:09.880 But nurture is not

00:14:11.500 just parenting.

00:14:12.960 Nurture is everything

00:14:14.100 in your environment.

00:14:16.460 It's, you know,

00:14:17.480 your siblings.

00:14:18.600 It's the town you live in.

00:14:20.500 It's where your bedroom

00:14:21.600 is located in the house

00:14:22.920 and whether it got

00:14:23.620 a lot of sun or not.

00:14:24.820 It's who your next door

00:14:25.800 neighbor is.

00:14:26.620 It's what nature documentary

00:14:27.680 you watched when you

00:14:28.520 were seven years old

00:14:29.620 that lit you on fire.

00:14:31.100 There's so much

00:14:31.940 in your environment

00:14:32.840 that shapes who you are.

00:14:34.520 And so much of that

00:14:35.920 is random.

00:14:37.520 And in a way,

00:14:38.500 the most important thing

00:14:39.340 a parent does

00:14:40.280 is determine

00:14:41.420 whether or not

00:14:41.960 their child's

00:14:42.400 going to go to college

00:14:43.220 because at least

00:14:43.840 in the past,

00:14:44.660 that has been

00:14:45.200 one of the single

00:14:45.820 biggest drivers

00:14:47.020 of how people fare

00:14:48.160 in life

00:14:48.820 in terms of economics

00:14:49.880 and economics

00:14:50.500 is highly tied

00:14:51.180 to longevity,

00:14:52.320 education,

00:14:53.020 highly tied to

00:14:53.880 marriage stability,

00:14:54.800 all these things.

00:14:56.000 So outside of education,

00:14:57.860 though,

00:14:58.080 parenting is just

00:14:59.000 one of a bazillion

00:15:00.400 things that happen

00:15:01.460 to us over the course

00:15:02.440 of our lives

00:15:03.080 that are part of nurture.

00:15:03.960 And something

00:15:05.480 that researchers

00:15:06.120 have done

00:15:06.620 to try to figure out

00:15:07.420 nature versus nurture

00:15:08.540 is do these twin studies.

00:15:11.060 And so what these

00:15:11.600 twin studies do,

00:15:12.280 they'll find twins

00:15:13.620 who were separated

00:15:14.980 at birth for some reason

00:15:16.060 and got moved

00:15:18.120 to different locations

00:15:18.980 completely

00:15:19.460 and said,

00:15:20.580 okay,

00:15:21.100 how did their lives

00:15:22.100 turn out?

00:15:22.540 How similar

00:15:23.220 and how different

00:15:24.380 are these people

00:15:25.280 who they're genetically

00:15:26.600 the same,

00:15:27.600 but they grew up

00:15:28.280 in different environments?

00:15:29.300 What do we learn

00:15:30.080 from those studies?

00:15:31.700 There's a lot of critique

00:15:32.840 of that research

00:15:33.660 because a lot

00:15:34.420 of it's anecdotal

00:15:35.300 and it's really hard

00:15:36.260 to,

00:15:36.720 you know,

00:15:36.920 as you can imagine,

00:15:37.920 the case study,

00:15:38.940 it's not nothing,

00:15:39.940 but it's not like,

00:15:40.880 you know,

00:15:41.640 vast.

00:15:42.680 So they study twins

00:15:43.700 who are raised apart,

00:15:44.560 but they also can learn

00:15:45.620 a little bit about

00:15:46.260 nature and nurture

00:15:47.280 by studying,

00:15:48.840 by comparing

00:15:49.500 how similar identical twins

00:15:51.380 are to each other

00:15:52.340 and then looking

00:15:53.260 at fraternal twins

00:15:54.180 and seeing how much

00:15:55.760 like each other

00:15:56.880 they are as well.

00:15:57.960 But going back

00:15:58.700 to the twins

00:15:59.180 who were separated

00:15:59.820 at birth,

00:16:00.580 they do often find

00:16:01.860 that those twins

00:16:02.640 eventually end up

00:16:04.300 in pretty similar places

00:16:05.860 income-wise,

00:16:07.140 education-wise,

00:16:08.280 you know,

00:16:08.660 marital status-wise,

00:16:10.020 regardless of how

00:16:11.200 they were raised.

00:16:12.040 So there's some research

00:16:12.980 that finds that,

00:16:14.780 let's say,

00:16:15.140 you were adopted

00:16:15.860 into a family

00:16:16.880 in which the parents

00:16:18.520 stayed married,

00:16:20.160 but your own parents,

00:16:21.180 whom you never even knew,

00:16:22.700 divorced.

00:16:23.600 That child is probably

00:16:25.180 going to have

00:16:25.880 a divorce rate

00:16:27.000 that's more like

00:16:28.140 the genetic parent

00:16:29.820 than the one

00:16:30.540 who raised them.

00:16:32.880 Interesting.

00:16:33.160 And you talked about

00:16:34.160 this one interesting study.

00:16:35.620 It's not probably

00:16:36.400 very applicable to humans,

00:16:37.960 but it's with mice,

00:16:39.240 laboratory mice,

00:16:40.240 where the scientists

00:16:41.860 will basically create

00:16:43.440 a ton of mice

00:16:44.300 that are genetically

00:16:44.860 the same,

00:16:46.320 but then they'll look

00:16:47.060 at how do these mice,

00:16:48.060 these genetically

00:16:48.440 same mice end up

00:16:50.220 if you put them

00:16:50.680 in different environments.

00:16:52.140 And they can end up

00:16:53.120 pretty different

00:16:54.220 because the way

00:16:55.020 they interact

00:16:55.460 with the environment

00:16:56.100 changes the kind

00:16:58.080 of mouse they become.

00:16:58.940 I love that you brought

00:17:00.620 up that study.

00:17:01.480 Yeah, it was really

00:17:02.120 a study that was intended

00:17:03.020 to look at neuroplasticity

00:17:04.960 in mice,

00:17:05.600 but what it found

00:17:06.440 ultimately was just

00:17:07.460 what you said.

00:17:08.020 They took these clones.

00:17:09.040 These mice are clones.

00:17:10.700 They are each other.

00:17:11.740 And they put them

00:17:12.280 into this kind of

00:17:12.880 funhouse environment

00:17:13.840 at birth, essentially.

00:17:15.500 And just by happenstance,

00:17:16.960 some mice were near

00:17:18.080 a fun toy

00:17:18.760 and some weren't

00:17:19.840 and some made a move

00:17:21.180 towards one randomly

00:17:22.180 and another one didn't.

00:17:23.580 And those minor differences

00:17:25.320 really, really seemed

00:17:26.720 to set them

00:17:27.560 on different paths

00:17:28.580 over time.

00:17:29.420 And there's just

00:17:29.800 this endless iteration.

00:17:32.080 Like we're all

00:17:32.580 new inventions

00:17:33.540 of ourselves

00:17:34.440 that come

00:17:35.340 of the combination

00:17:36.760 of what we came

00:17:37.800 to be put on this earth with

00:17:39.660 and how that interacts

00:17:41.060 with the 10,000 things

00:17:42.200 that happened to us

00:17:42.920 over the course of a day.

00:17:44.180 So we're like almost

00:17:44.860 a whole new creature

00:17:46.080 every day

00:17:46.960 in that we're being

00:17:47.740 shaped by our environment,

00:17:48.800 which is interacting

00:17:50.020 with what we brought

00:17:51.200 to the table

00:17:51.660 in the first place.

00:17:53.140 Yeah, so if you're

00:17:54.140 an identical twin,

00:17:55.580 you might have

00:17:56.080 different friends

00:17:56.940 than your identical

00:17:57.740 twin sibling

00:17:58.460 and that's going

00:17:59.440 to affect the kind

00:18:00.280 of person you have

00:18:00.840 maybe different interests,

00:18:02.280 maybe have different goals

00:18:03.380 or ambitions in life

00:18:04.280 than your other sibling.

00:18:06.000 That's exactly right.

00:18:06.900 I mean, there is

00:18:07.500 more similarity

00:18:08.520 among identical twins

00:18:09.800 for things like

00:18:10.320 personality traits,

00:18:11.320 but it's not perfect.

00:18:12.440 It's not a perfect concordance.

00:18:13.840 It's not 100%.

00:18:14.940 So that's how we know

00:18:16.320 that the environment

00:18:17.040 is really, really powerful.

00:18:18.720 Let's talk about

00:18:19.180 how siblings can affect

00:18:20.340 how you turn out.

00:18:21.600 And I think there's

00:18:22.160 this popular idea

00:18:23.480 that people like

00:18:24.220 to talk about

00:18:24.860 around the kitchen table

00:18:25.860 or when they're with friends

00:18:27.040 and that's birth order

00:18:28.640 or sibling order.

00:18:30.380 Does birth order

00:18:31.060 have an effect

00:18:31.680 on personalities

00:18:32.480 and outcomes?

00:18:33.440 Because I mean,

00:18:33.720 I think typically

00:18:34.480 there's this,

00:18:35.240 you know,

00:18:35.760 the stereotype of like,

00:18:36.940 well, older siblings

00:18:37.740 are going to be

00:18:38.240 more successful,

00:18:39.160 they're ambitious,

00:18:40.400 they're kind of seen

00:18:40.880 as the leader,

00:18:41.840 the younger kid

00:18:42.560 is seen as,

00:18:43.300 you know,

00:18:43.680 less motivated

00:18:44.440 and kind of more

00:18:45.040 of the fun lover.

00:18:46.740 What does your research

00:18:47.780 tell us about

00:18:48.200 how birth order

00:18:49.140 affects how children

00:18:50.580 turn out?

00:18:51.300 There's two really

00:18:51.920 prominent findings

00:18:52.800 that seem almost

00:18:53.580 contradictory,

00:18:54.360 but I'll lay them

00:18:55.040 out for you.

00:18:56.740 One of the things

00:18:57.580 that research finds

00:18:58.580 so consistently

00:19:00.040 is that the oldest

00:19:01.480 child in the family

00:19:02.800 tends to have

00:19:04.560 the highest IQ,

00:19:06.220 tends to have

00:19:06.820 the most cognitive

00:19:07.840 firepower.

00:19:09.700 That shows up

00:19:10.700 over and over again.

00:19:12.160 And people think

00:19:13.280 the reason for that

00:19:14.140 is that they are

00:19:15.460 the only ones

00:19:16.540 in their family,

00:19:18.020 the only child

00:19:18.960 in their family

00:19:19.660 who had the benefit

00:19:20.860 of their parents'

00:19:22.160 exclusive attention

00:19:23.000 when they were young.

00:19:23.840 And it's one

00:19:24.540 of the best arguments

00:19:25.200 we have

00:19:25.740 for the power

00:19:26.700 of enrichment,

00:19:27.540 right?

00:19:27.740 It's a great argument

00:19:28.360 for the power

00:19:29.600 of environment.

00:19:30.540 And in fact,

00:19:31.460 there's also something

00:19:32.320 about a sibling effect

00:19:33.280 in there.

00:19:34.060 We know that

00:19:34.800 oldest children

00:19:36.020 who have younger siblings

00:19:37.760 do better

00:19:38.960 cognitively

00:19:39.880 than only children.

00:19:41.540 So there's something

00:19:42.340 about the fact

00:19:43.260 that they are

00:19:43.980 interacting with

00:19:44.960 younger siblings

00:19:45.660 that is thought

00:19:46.380 to consolidate

00:19:47.480 their knowledge

00:19:48.240 or enhance

00:19:49.800 their abilities

00:19:50.820 somehow.

00:19:51.140 The mechanisms

00:19:52.260 are not well understood,

00:19:53.900 but there's something

00:19:54.540 about being

00:19:54.980 the oldest sibling

00:19:55.780 that gives you

00:19:56.500 a cognitive edge

00:19:57.600 relative to younger siblings

00:19:58.820 and even relative

00:19:59.780 to only children.

00:20:01.100 That said,

00:20:02.260 there isn't a ton

00:20:03.060 of research

00:20:03.680 that finds

00:20:04.480 that oldest siblings

00:20:05.560 have different personalities

00:20:07.100 from younger siblings

00:20:08.220 that you can reliably

00:20:09.300 predict

00:20:09.880 that the oldest sibling

00:20:11.200 is going to be,

00:20:11.880 let's say,

00:20:12.420 the most conscientious.

00:20:14.180 A lot of the research

00:20:15.100 on sibling murder

00:20:16.420 that was done

00:20:17.360 would ask kids

00:20:18.460 in a family,

00:20:19.240 who's the most

00:20:19.860 conscientious

00:20:20.480 in your family,

00:20:21.200 let's say,

00:20:22.100 where they would

00:20:22.600 ask them

00:20:23.320 to rate

00:20:24.100 their siblings'

00:20:25.060 conscientiousness scores.

00:20:26.840 If you are 25

00:20:28.000 and your oldest sibling

00:20:29.500 is 32,

00:20:30.600 like, yeah,

00:20:31.440 they look like

00:20:32.100 the most conscientious

00:20:32.920 one in the family

00:20:33.540 because they are

00:20:34.100 more mature.

00:20:34.900 The oldest child,

00:20:35.860 as one of the people

00:20:36.620 I interviewed said,

00:20:37.560 will always be

00:20:38.220 the oldest child,

00:20:39.360 which is to say

00:20:40.140 the most responsible

00:20:41.160 because they are older.

00:20:42.780 But they're not necessarily

00:20:43.800 particularly conscientious

00:20:45.440 relative to other people

00:20:46.720 their age.

00:20:47.700 So a lot of the research

00:20:49.060 was conducted

00:20:49.760 in ways that were imperfect

00:20:50.840 and the best conducted

00:20:53.240 studies on sibling order

00:20:55.420 finds that there are

00:20:56.960 not a lot of personality

00:20:58.040 differences

00:20:58.620 that correlate

00:20:59.460 with birth order.

00:21:01.260 I know,

00:21:01.660 it's a shock,

00:21:02.580 but it's true.

00:21:03.620 And you sort of know

00:21:04.160 because you may have

00:21:05.580 even had this experience

00:21:06.580 where somebody will say to you,

00:21:08.020 well, you know,

00:21:08.860 I'm the middle child,

00:21:10.260 so I'm the peacemaker

00:21:11.200 and you kind of nod your head

00:21:12.520 and you're like,

00:21:12.980 yeah, yeah.

00:21:13.480 But then you meet somebody else

00:21:14.540 who's a middle child

00:21:15.320 and they say,

00:21:15.780 yeah, you know,

00:21:16.260 I was a middle child,

00:21:17.100 I was always forgotten,

00:21:17.960 so I've always been

00:21:18.540 kind of a pain in the neck,

00:21:19.620 right?

00:21:20.080 And they think that

00:21:21.140 their birth order

00:21:21.700 explains everything,

00:21:22.600 but it's like astrology.

00:21:23.980 You can tell yourself

00:21:24.700 any story you want

00:21:25.740 as a result of your birth order.

00:21:27.420 But birth order,

00:21:28.660 you know,

00:21:28.880 let's say,

00:21:29.340 as we've already discussed,

00:21:30.600 your environment

00:21:31.220 is multifactorial.

00:21:33.860 So the idea

00:21:34.580 that your birth order alone

00:21:35.900 would play such an outsized role

00:21:37.960 in your personality,

00:21:39.000 it doesn't really make sense.

00:21:40.940 Okay, so birth order

00:21:41.820 may not have

00:21:42.900 as large an effect

00:21:44.320 as we often think,

00:21:45.840 but it can affect

00:21:47.080 the IQ of the firstborn.

00:21:48.700 And as you mentioned,

00:21:50.060 that's because parents

00:21:50.760 typically invest more time

00:21:52.000 and energy

00:21:52.540 in their first kid

00:21:53.900 because they've got more

00:21:55.080 time and bandwidth

00:21:56.280 to pay attention to them

00:21:57.500 because they're the only kid.

00:21:59.040 But as you add a second,

00:22:00.580 third,

00:22:01.380 fourth kid,

00:22:02.880 the parent's attention

00:22:03.760 gets split between

00:22:04.760 the kids.

00:22:06.260 But what's interesting

00:22:07.000 is that there's research

00:22:08.520 that suggests

00:22:09.180 that heavy investment

00:22:11.000 in the older child

00:22:11.960 can actually trickle down

00:22:13.940 and benefit

00:22:15.120 the younger children.

00:22:16.420 Well, that's the idea, right?

00:22:18.260 Is that, you know,

00:22:19.160 the way the economists

00:22:20.000 look at that

00:22:20.660 is they say,

00:22:21.700 oh, it's a rational choice

00:22:23.320 to invest more

00:22:24.240 in the oldest child

00:22:25.200 because we know

00:22:26.540 there are trickle-down effects.

00:22:27.980 When the oldest siblings

00:22:28.800 do well,

00:22:30.100 that tends to elevate

00:22:31.280 the performances

00:22:32.100 of the younger siblings.

00:22:33.600 So if you can, like,

00:22:34.920 maximize performance

00:22:35.880 of the oldest sibling,

00:22:37.180 you've already done your work, right?

00:22:38.500 That's going to affect

00:22:39.160 the younger kids

00:22:39.840 even if you don't do anything else.

00:22:41.180 So it's a funny

00:22:42.280 economic analysis.

00:22:43.440 I don't think anybody

00:22:44.140 consciously thinks that way,

00:22:45.920 but it does sort of make sense.

00:22:48.060 We're going to take a quick break

00:22:49.020 for your words

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00:23:48.000 slash manliness.

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00:23:50.480 slash manliness.

00:23:52.160 And now back to the show.

00:23:53.940 So in the families

00:23:54.500 you studied,

00:23:55.480 how much influence

00:23:57.100 did older siblings

00:23:57.940 have on younger ones,

00:23:59.400 both positively

00:24:00.140 and negatively?

00:24:00.780 I think that

00:24:03.320 I saw that happen

00:24:04.240 a lot in the families

00:24:05.340 I wrote about.

00:24:06.300 You know,

00:24:06.600 the Murguia family,

00:24:07.520 for example,

00:24:08.520 is this really prominent

00:24:09.560 family of Mexican-American

00:24:11.360 jurists and philanthropists,

00:24:13.480 really prominent figures

00:24:14.700 at a national level.

00:24:16.000 And they grew up

00:24:16.800 in a very disadvantaged

00:24:17.820 community

00:24:18.440 in Kansas City,

00:24:20.380 Kansas.

00:24:21.400 Or at least their home

00:24:22.280 was very humble.

00:24:23.440 And their oldest sibling

00:24:24.940 went to college,

00:24:27.360 you know,

00:24:27.560 obviously before they did,

00:24:28.480 his name was Alfred.

00:24:29.480 And he was the first

00:24:31.220 in the family

00:24:31.660 to go to college

00:24:32.380 and he got to Kansas University

00:24:34.260 before any of them did.

00:24:35.720 And they all say that

00:24:36.740 because he was there

00:24:37.960 and had already

00:24:38.780 navigated financial aid

00:24:40.360 and had already

00:24:41.180 made friends

00:24:42.480 and gotten into

00:24:43.460 a prestigious fraternity,

00:24:45.100 it made it so much easier

00:24:46.460 for them

00:24:47.160 when they got there.

00:24:48.700 Now,

00:24:49.180 things didn't work out

00:24:50.180 as well,

00:24:51.060 you know,

00:24:51.340 in terms of conventional

00:24:52.220 achievement for Alfred

00:24:53.480 because he was

00:24:55.080 the first one there

00:24:55.960 and he was kind of

00:24:56.980 an only at the time.

00:24:58.400 And he was the only

00:24:59.680 Mexican-American kid

00:25:00.720 in a predominantly

00:25:01.320 white fraternity.

00:25:03.060 He felt a lot

00:25:03.580 of financial pressure.

00:25:04.620 He felt really alienated.

00:25:06.540 You know,

00:25:06.700 he ended up dropping out

00:25:08.160 of University of Kansas

00:25:09.260 and keeping it a secret

00:25:10.840 from his siblings

00:25:11.560 and none of them

00:25:12.440 ever spoke about it.

00:25:13.580 But they all credit him

00:25:15.320 with their ability

00:25:16.820 to succeed

00:25:17.420 in that environment

00:25:18.320 because,

00:25:19.280 you know,

00:25:19.840 I see it in my own kids.

00:25:20.960 Like going to a really

00:25:21.640 big state school

00:25:22.560 can be a very

00:25:23.140 overwhelming experience.

00:25:24.320 You don't know

00:25:24.620 how to get into

00:25:25.180 the good classes.

00:25:25.880 You don't know

00:25:26.100 what the good classes are.

00:25:27.040 If there's somebody

00:25:27.900 who's there before

00:25:28.560 you paving the way,

00:25:29.480 it is,

00:25:29.800 you know,

00:25:30.180 immensely more helpful.

00:25:32.560 So older siblings

00:25:33.400 can really see

00:25:34.480 also talent

00:25:35.340 in their younger siblings

00:25:36.380 that I think parents

00:25:37.780 don't always recognize

00:25:39.320 just because they're not

00:25:40.300 in the same environment

00:25:41.240 that kids are immersed in.

00:25:43.160 And also I think

00:25:44.080 that older siblings

00:25:45.080 can see the future

00:25:46.160 in a way that

00:25:47.080 parents sometimes can't

00:25:48.560 and so they can be

00:25:49.360 really great sources

00:25:50.200 of vision

00:25:50.720 and advice.

00:25:52.740 And also,

00:25:53.420 you know,

00:25:53.620 adolescents in particular

00:25:54.620 would much rather

00:25:55.280 get advice

00:25:55.960 from a sibling

00:25:56.540 than a parent.

00:25:57.600 Like I often quote

00:25:58.800 Lisa DeMoor

00:25:59.460 who's a wonderful

00:26:00.200 psychologist

00:26:01.080 and speaker

00:26:02.340 who says that

00:26:03.780 parenting advice

00:26:05.180 when given to an adolescent,

00:26:06.900 she calls it

00:26:07.280 the kiss of death advice,

00:26:08.920 you know?

00:26:09.300 Like if you want your kid

00:26:10.340 to do something

00:26:10.860 and they're 16 years old,

00:26:12.400 the best way

00:26:12.980 to turn them off

00:26:13.920 the idea

00:26:14.320 is to suggest it.

00:26:15.820 So,

00:26:16.320 you know,

00:26:16.620 in my own life

00:26:17.580 having an older brother

00:26:18.760 was really influential

00:26:19.800 for me

00:26:20.460 because I looked up to him

00:26:21.940 and when he suggested

00:26:23.040 I do something,

00:26:23.960 I took it pretty seriously.

00:26:25.280 Okay,

00:26:25.960 so older siblings

00:26:27.200 can pave the way

00:26:28.280 for the younger ones

00:26:29.280 and they can give each other

00:26:30.160 advice or suggestions

00:26:31.220 that can steer them

00:26:32.060 in certain directions

00:26:32.900 because siblings

00:26:34.480 see each other

00:26:35.420 in a way parents can't.

00:26:37.280 What role does rivalry

00:26:38.680 and competition

00:26:39.920 play in the effect

00:26:41.520 that the older sibling

00:26:42.440 has on younger siblings?

00:26:44.140 I think you see it

00:26:44.980 most closely

00:26:45.520 in a family I wrote about

00:26:46.560 called the Groffs.

00:26:47.800 The three siblings there

00:26:48.960 are Adam Groff

00:26:50.260 who's this tremendous

00:26:51.320 serial healthcare entrepreneur,

00:26:53.800 a younger sister,

00:26:54.660 Lauren,

00:26:55.600 who has written

00:26:56.720 many lauded novels

00:26:58.420 and is a many times

00:27:00.380 National Book Award finalist,

00:27:02.140 you know,

00:27:02.320 one of the great novelists

00:27:03.260 of our generation.

00:27:05.060 And then their youngest sibling,

00:27:07.000 Sarah True,

00:27:08.320 was an Olympic triathlete

00:27:10.300 and is currently

00:27:11.220 an Ironman champion.

00:27:13.340 So,

00:27:13.680 they're really

00:27:14.360 an extraordinary family.

00:27:16.540 But I think

00:27:17.320 when they were kids,

00:27:18.580 Lauren and Adam

00:27:19.520 jostled quite a bit

00:27:20.960 in her recollection,

00:27:22.280 of course,

00:27:22.640 because he's the older brother.

00:27:23.700 He doesn't remember

00:27:24.340 very much of it at all.

00:27:25.920 But,

00:27:26.380 you know,

00:27:26.620 Lauren once told me

00:27:27.460 that a huge part

00:27:28.660 of her motivation

00:27:29.520 came from

00:27:31.160 a kind of fury

00:27:31.900 that burned in her

00:27:33.040 about feeling

00:27:34.460 underestimated

00:27:35.280 by her brother.

00:27:36.620 So,

00:27:36.700 yeah,

00:27:36.840 the rivalry

00:27:37.320 can really

00:27:37.960 catapult them

00:27:38.940 to success.

00:27:39.860 I mean,

00:27:39.960 it could be a driver.

00:27:41.100 And I think

00:27:41.880 you might,

00:27:42.460 I mean,

00:27:42.620 you can see that

00:27:43.100 with the Williams sisters,

00:27:45.120 you know,

00:27:45.280 Venus and Serena.

00:27:46.380 Well,

00:27:46.620 I think in a way

00:27:47.200 the Williams sisters,

00:27:48.140 what drove them

00:27:48.780 was having somebody

00:27:50.160 as good as them

00:27:51.180 to practice off of

00:27:52.280 all the time.

00:27:53.300 You know,

00:27:53.420 I'm sure the rivalry

00:27:54.160 was there too,

00:27:55.140 but it was also just,

00:27:56.320 you know,

00:27:56.520 kind of proximity

00:27:57.200 to greatness.

00:27:58.660 I mean,

00:27:58.940 and obviously

00:27:59.420 the Kennedy father

00:28:00.400 thought that

00:28:01.160 in cultivating

00:28:01.920 that rivalry

00:28:02.480 among the siblings,

00:28:03.580 he would push them

00:28:04.580 to greater heights.

00:28:06.160 You know,

00:28:06.360 somebody said to me

00:28:07.060 at a party recently,

00:28:08.080 oh,

00:28:08.220 now in my daughter's fight,

00:28:09.660 I don't feel so bad about it.

00:28:11.240 I think maybe something

00:28:12.020 positive is coming out of it.

00:28:14.000 You know,

00:28:14.320 not a bad spin.

00:28:15.760 I think it's also

00:28:16.520 just a calculation

00:28:17.300 every parent makes.

00:28:18.400 Like,

00:28:18.520 what's more important?

00:28:19.280 Is it more important

00:28:20.160 to you that your kids

00:28:20.860 get along

00:28:21.540 or is it more important

00:28:22.460 that they succeed?

00:28:23.840 You know,

00:28:24.000 even if you could control

00:28:25.260 how any of those things

00:28:26.720 interact,

00:28:27.280 which is unlikely,

00:28:28.320 it was just

00:28:28.780 an interesting reflection.

00:28:30.500 Another dynamic

00:28:30.940 that sibling rivalry

00:28:32.200 can create

00:28:32.940 besides pushing siblings

00:28:34.420 to achieve more

00:28:35.520 is just pushing siblings

00:28:37.660 to differentiate themselves.

00:28:39.400 Like with the Graff family,

00:28:41.000 one sibling became

00:28:42.060 an entrepreneur,

00:28:43.260 another one became

00:28:44.160 a writer,

00:28:45.380 and then another one

00:28:46.220 became an athlete.

00:28:47.480 And Lauren,

00:28:48.180 the novelist,

00:28:49.300 she said she became

00:28:50.240 a huge reader

00:28:51.200 because her older brother

00:28:52.640 wouldn't let her talk.

00:28:53.980 But it seems like

00:28:54.600 they were each

00:28:55.460 really trying to

00:28:57.140 carve out

00:28:58.000 a distinct lane

00:28:58.900 for themselves.

00:28:59.520 So siblings

00:29:00.680 could differentiate

00:29:01.300 themselves

00:29:01.660 by leaning

00:29:02.220 into distinct

00:29:03.160 personality traits,

00:29:04.920 you know,

00:29:05.080 different interests,

00:29:06.540 sometimes like

00:29:07.040 choosing a different

00:29:07.860 high-achieving path

00:29:09.080 like the Graffs did.

00:29:10.400 But I'm curious,

00:29:11.760 did you find any instances

00:29:12.640 where one sibling,

00:29:13.920 maybe not consciously,

00:29:15.640 but they chose

00:29:16.360 a less,

00:29:17.700 we'll say,

00:29:18.740 less optimal life path

00:29:20.380 in order to

00:29:21.720 differentiate themselves

00:29:23.020 from a high-achieving sibling?

00:29:24.840 I'm sure that

00:29:25.660 that happens.

00:29:27.480 I think that

00:29:28.960 there probably

00:29:29.400 are families

00:29:29.940 in which

00:29:30.360 if the sibling

00:29:31.560 feels that they

00:29:32.500 can't compete,

00:29:33.720 you know,

00:29:34.040 at the level

00:29:34.500 that the other siblings

00:29:35.240 are performing,

00:29:36.260 that they just

00:29:36.980 stop trying.

00:29:38.900 It feels like

00:29:40.200 a familiar dynamic.

00:29:41.480 I can't say that

00:29:42.120 I came across

00:29:42.760 any families like that

00:29:43.880 over the course

00:29:44.460 of my reporting.

00:29:45.420 I mean,

00:29:45.580 I was looking for families

00:29:47.240 where almost everybody

00:29:48.160 was, you know,

00:29:49.040 high-achieving.

00:29:50.160 But I do feel like

00:29:51.860 that dynamic

00:29:52.740 seems familiar.

00:29:55.040 Yeah,

00:29:55.140 I think it might happen.

00:29:56.320 I thought it was interesting.

00:29:57.060 You talked about,

00:29:57.760 I think there was one family

00:29:58.680 where a dead sibling

00:30:00.740 affects the living siblings

00:30:02.800 and like the living siblings

00:30:03.900 didn't even meet

00:30:04.920 or know their

00:30:05.640 dead sibling.

00:30:07.260 Tell us about that.

00:30:07.860 I thought it was interesting.

00:30:08.780 Yeah,

00:30:09.140 I think it's,

00:30:09.980 there used to be a term,

00:30:11.500 you know,

00:30:11.860 a theoretical,

00:30:13.000 psychological term

00:30:13.900 called the replacement child.

00:30:15.660 And there was this idea

00:30:17.260 that when a child

00:30:19.000 dies very,

00:30:19.800 very young,

00:30:20.960 you know,

00:30:21.200 that child becomes

00:30:22.300 he or she

00:30:23.120 of sainted memory,

00:30:24.200 right?

00:30:24.660 Like they never had

00:30:26.180 the chance to grow up

00:30:27.420 to be somebody

00:30:28.060 who disappointed

00:30:28.800 their parents

00:30:29.540 or threw a tantrum

00:30:30.940 or trashed the family car

00:30:32.700 or dropped out of law school.

00:30:34.540 They die when they are

00:30:36.260 all adorableness

00:30:37.740 and they are all potential

00:30:39.380 and when they die

00:30:40.800 very young,

00:30:41.560 you know.

00:30:41.860 and so I think

00:30:42.500 being a sibling

00:30:43.500 in a family

00:30:44.260 where a sibling

00:30:44.780 has died

00:30:45.440 and all you've ever

00:30:46.100 heard about

00:30:46.780 is how perfect

00:30:47.460 that child was.

00:30:49.120 I heard,

00:30:49.880 I heard two things

00:30:51.380 from,

00:30:51.920 you know,

00:30:52.380 surviving siblings.

00:30:54.680 One was

00:30:55.380 we didn't want

00:30:55.820 to be a burden

00:30:56.420 to our parents.

00:30:57.600 We didn't want

00:30:58.160 to cause them pain.

00:30:59.880 I think that's true

00:31:00.620 also sometimes

00:31:01.540 in families

00:31:02.300 where one of the children

00:31:03.180 is severely disabled.

00:31:05.020 So there's this pressure

00:31:06.280 to not be another

00:31:08.160 source of pain

00:31:09.100 in your parents' life

00:31:09.960 but rather a source

00:31:10.580 of joy and pride

00:31:11.660 and ease.

00:31:13.320 But I also think

00:31:14.760 that when you,

00:31:15.660 you know,

00:31:16.100 sort of deconstruct

00:31:17.240 what they are saying,

00:31:18.780 I think there also

00:31:19.620 is a sense,

00:31:20.820 a keen sense

00:31:21.760 of awareness

00:31:22.300 of how beloved

00:31:23.980 this other child was

00:31:25.700 and a desire

00:31:26.360 to live up

00:31:27.020 to that reputation.

00:31:28.620 So I think typically

00:31:29.660 when we think about

00:31:30.360 sibling dynamics,

00:31:31.960 we think of

00:31:32.920 when we were kids.

00:31:34.300 You're all in the same house

00:31:35.600 under the same rules.

00:31:37.040 You're experiencing mom

00:31:37.840 and dad

00:31:38.300 at the same time.

00:31:39.220 but eventually

00:31:40.280 you get older

00:31:42.040 and you guys

00:31:42.520 go your separate ways

00:31:43.420 oftentimes

00:31:44.020 different parts

00:31:44.940 of the country

00:31:45.480 and we stopped

00:31:46.640 thinking about

00:31:47.260 the sibling dynamic

00:31:48.440 because like,

00:31:48.860 oh,

00:31:48.960 I don't see my sibling

00:31:49.740 all that often

00:31:50.560 except at maybe

00:31:51.280 Christmas or Thanksgiving.

00:31:52.960 How does the sibling

00:31:53.900 dynamic continue

00:31:54.940 even into adulthood

00:31:56.200 while adult siblings

00:31:58.000 are separated

00:31:58.580 from each other?

00:32:00.200 You know,

00:32:00.360 it's interesting.

00:32:01.140 I reported this book

00:32:01.960 over so many years

00:32:03.120 that I really had a sense

00:32:04.680 of how sibling dynamics

00:32:05.820 do play out over time.

00:32:07.520 So for example,

00:32:09.500 one of the families

00:32:10.620 I wrote about,

00:32:11.620 there was some distance

00:32:12.640 among the siblings

00:32:13.580 and then the parents

00:32:14.940 got very sick.

00:32:15.740 Often that can be

00:32:16.440 a source of tension

00:32:17.320 among siblings.

00:32:18.780 But then when people

00:32:19.720 start to get older

00:32:20.860 and the parents

00:32:21.780 aren't there anymore,

00:32:23.320 then you also

00:32:24.020 really look out

00:32:24.820 for each other's health

00:32:25.880 in a new way

00:32:26.620 and that can bring you

00:32:27.600 closer to

00:32:28.420 whether you ever

00:32:29.680 intended it or not.

00:32:31.220 And so I think

00:32:32.060 sibling dynamics

00:32:32.980 change over time

00:32:34.380 and in a way

00:32:35.380 that is both

00:32:36.060 predictable

00:32:36.900 and also quite moving.

00:32:39.260 Yeah,

00:32:39.860 and speaking of that idea

00:32:40.740 about how sibling dynamics

00:32:42.120 can change over time,

00:32:43.180 one of the recurring themes

00:32:44.180 in your book

00:32:44.680 is how no family

00:32:46.440 is the same

00:32:47.400 over time.

00:32:48.760 So for example,

00:32:50.020 the firstborn

00:32:50.720 may experience

00:32:51.960 an environment

00:32:52.560 of very different

00:32:54.060 parental resources.

00:32:55.640 Maybe their parents

00:32:56.540 are newlyweds

00:32:57.360 and they're still in college

00:32:59.040 or just starting

00:32:59.620 their careers.

00:33:00.240 They don't have

00:33:00.480 a lot of money.

00:33:01.520 And then the later

00:33:02.320 sibling is born

00:33:03.600 and the parents'

00:33:04.520 financial circumstances

00:33:05.220 have changed

00:33:05.580 because dad and mom

00:33:06.600 got great jobs.

00:33:07.980 And so those two kids

00:33:09.600 aren't going to have

00:33:10.240 the same experience.

00:33:12.260 How much do changing

00:33:13.300 family circumstances

00:33:14.340 shape sibling outcomes?

00:33:17.300 Yeah,

00:33:17.820 this is the work

00:33:18.460 of Dalton Conley

00:33:19.400 who's a sociologist

00:33:20.480 who eventually

00:33:21.100 became very much

00:33:22.220 interested in the role

00:33:23.300 of genetics

00:33:23.980 and shaping personality

00:33:25.040 which is not the typical

00:33:26.020 stance of a sociologist.

00:33:28.360 That said,

00:33:29.440 he has done

00:33:30.300 really interesting work

00:33:31.360 about how

00:33:32.640 every sibling

00:33:33.500 does kind of grow up

00:33:35.220 in a different family

00:33:36.240 depending on where

00:33:37.020 the family's finances are.

00:33:38.800 So for example,

00:33:40.280 he writes about families

00:33:41.520 in which one sibling

00:33:42.660 was able to go

00:33:43.840 to private school

00:33:44.680 and then the parents'

00:33:46.120 finances kind of fell apart

00:33:47.340 and another sibling

00:33:48.140 went to a not very good

00:33:49.900 public school

00:33:50.640 and those kids

00:33:52.040 might have very

00:33:52.700 different outcomes.

00:33:53.920 It's especially true

00:33:54.900 when that applies

00:33:55.920 to a college education

00:33:57.420 or even

00:33:59.800 were the parents

00:34:00.540 married or divorced.

00:34:02.280 If you have one kid

00:34:03.020 who's 15

00:34:03.640 and the parents

00:34:04.580 are married

00:34:05.080 and then three years later

00:34:06.760 that kid's already

00:34:07.840 left the house

00:34:08.500 but his younger sibling

00:34:09.800 who's now 15,

00:34:11.100 the parents are fighting,

00:34:12.080 they're splitting up,

00:34:13.160 that can set you

00:34:13.860 on a really different

00:34:14.480 path too.

00:34:15.660 So every child

00:34:16.800 grows up in a different home.

00:34:17.940 That's a statement

00:34:18.620 that I think

00:34:19.220 applies to

00:34:20.040 my own family

00:34:21.180 and I think

00:34:22.040 it's not just that

00:34:23.000 you're bringing

00:34:24.140 your own perspective

00:34:24.860 to how you interpret

00:34:25.660 your family

00:34:26.260 but your family

00:34:26.940 is changing over time

00:34:28.300 and that means

00:34:29.200 that you at 12

00:34:30.480 are experiencing

00:34:31.200 a different family

00:34:31.960 than your older

00:34:32.580 or younger sibling

00:34:33.340 does at the same age.

00:34:35.280 And I imagine

00:34:35.780 that can create guilt

00:34:37.320 for some parents

00:34:38.080 because they want

00:34:38.860 to treat all their kids

00:34:39.980 fairly

00:34:40.420 and they feel like

00:34:41.440 well I wasn't able

00:34:42.520 to give this one kid

00:34:44.160 that opportunity

00:34:44.680 that I was able

00:34:45.280 to give this other kid

00:34:47.120 but I guess

00:34:47.940 you can't beat yourself up

00:34:48.860 because there's nothing

00:34:49.920 you can do about that.

00:34:51.400 Yeah, it's interesting.

00:34:52.200 You know,

00:34:52.400 I think in a way

00:34:53.140 I really hope

00:34:53.740 that my book

00:34:54.400 would be a relief

00:34:56.280 to a lot of parents

00:34:57.400 in that one of the main

00:34:58.360 messages in the book

00:34:59.320 is you have less control

00:35:01.960 than you think

00:35:02.940 over their fates

00:35:04.100 because there is

00:35:04.960 so much of an element

00:35:05.840 of luck

00:35:06.460 that comes into

00:35:07.220 people's lives

00:35:07.960 and that along with

00:35:10.060 you know,

00:35:10.440 what kids are bringing

00:35:11.160 to the table themselves.

00:35:12.520 It's true.

00:35:13.360 You know,

00:35:13.640 the decisions you make

00:35:14.660 financially,

00:35:15.880 you know,

00:35:16.300 might have different

00:35:17.180 effects on your kids

00:35:18.620 but as I said before

00:35:20.000 their environment

00:35:21.340 is multifactorial

00:35:22.600 and you know,

00:35:23.980 with the exception

00:35:24.440 of whether you send

00:35:25.680 your kid to college

00:35:26.500 or not,

00:35:27.580 I mean,

00:35:27.820 this is,

00:35:28.160 we're assuming

00:35:28.760 all families here,

00:35:29.920 you know,

00:35:30.120 we're not talking

00:35:30.620 about abusive families

00:35:31.880 that can really

00:35:32.520 do serious damage

00:35:33.480 but like reasonably

00:35:34.560 healthy loving homes,

00:35:36.480 you know,

00:35:37.060 there's a pretty

00:35:37.660 wide range of behavior

00:35:39.380 that really won't

00:35:40.900 affect the outcome.

00:35:41.560 So for example,

00:35:42.660 I think parents

00:35:43.340 agonize over

00:35:44.480 should I,

00:35:45.540 you know,

00:35:46.080 co-sleep with my child

00:35:47.380 or not?

00:35:47.780 Should I do gentle

00:35:48.740 parenting or not?

00:35:49.840 Am I attachment

00:35:51.000 parenting or not?

00:35:52.840 You know,

00:35:53.140 should I punish my kids?

00:35:54.680 How do I get them

00:35:55.280 to be more disciplined

00:35:57.020 in doing their homework?

00:35:58.200 I think all this stuff

00:35:59.220 has less of an effect

00:36:00.220 than we think it does

00:36:01.040 at least on

00:36:01.820 personality outcomes.

00:36:04.120 You know,

00:36:04.420 how your child feels

00:36:05.520 at any given moment,

00:36:07.740 that's important

00:36:08.700 but it's also hard

00:36:09.860 to predict

00:36:10.540 how your child's

00:36:11.380 going to feel.

00:36:11.900 So the example

00:36:12.820 I always give

00:36:13.380 in that regard is,

00:36:14.680 you know,

00:36:14.880 let's say you have

00:36:15.420 two kids

00:36:16.100 who are very different

00:36:17.040 and both of them

00:36:17.980 are naturally

00:36:18.540 talented artists.

00:36:20.400 And both of them

00:36:21.800 have mothers

00:36:22.360 who shower them

00:36:23.620 with praise

00:36:24.360 for their work

00:36:25.240 and give them

00:36:26.040 lots of art supplies

00:36:27.020 and offer them

00:36:27.980 art classes.

00:36:28.980 You know,

00:36:29.280 one of those kids

00:36:30.160 could grow up

00:36:30.860 and say,

00:36:31.660 you know,

00:36:32.520 I loved art

00:36:33.400 and then my mother

00:36:34.160 smothered me

00:36:34.920 and put so much

00:36:35.540 pressure on me

00:36:36.380 and then I

00:36:37.080 walked away altogether.

00:36:39.080 And then the other one

00:36:39.900 could, you know,

00:36:40.580 at the Venice Biennale

00:36:41.920 give a toast

00:36:42.980 that says,

00:36:43.440 I just want to thank

00:36:44.040 my mother

00:36:44.460 who believed in me

00:36:45.380 and showered me

00:36:46.120 with classes

00:36:47.040 and art supplies.

00:36:47.800 You know,

00:36:48.240 so parenting

00:36:48.800 is not one size

00:36:49.740 fits all

00:36:50.380 which is why

00:36:51.020 I always say

00:36:51.380 that parenting

00:36:51.840 advice should come

00:36:53.360 with a caveat.

00:36:54.240 Don't try this

00:36:54.840 at home.

00:36:56.060 The best advice

00:36:57.380 I give to parents

00:36:58.320 is just know

00:36:59.500 your child,

00:37:00.400 you love the child

00:37:01.240 you have

00:37:01.860 and go from there.

00:37:03.420 One dynamic

00:37:04.420 with parenting

00:37:05.020 that you did find

00:37:07.060 that influenced

00:37:07.900 children

00:37:08.360 was these two types

00:37:09.440 of parents

00:37:09.980 you often came across.

00:37:11.880 Overcomer parents

00:37:12.780 and thwarted parents.

00:37:14.260 Tell us about that.

00:37:15.480 Well,

00:37:15.740 I think that

00:37:16.700 this is something

00:37:18.000 I saw in a lot

00:37:18.680 of the parents

00:37:19.300 that many of them

00:37:20.720 were extraordinary

00:37:21.900 themselves.

00:37:22.960 So,

00:37:23.220 for example,

00:37:23.700 just to return

00:37:24.160 to the Bronte sisters,

00:37:25.800 you know,

00:37:26.020 their father

00:37:26.600 had grown up

00:37:27.180 like dirt poor

00:37:28.000 in Ireland,

00:37:29.480 child,

00:37:30.220 I think,

00:37:30.560 of a tenant farmer,

00:37:31.440 was definitely

00:37:32.780 a reach

00:37:33.720 that he would

00:37:34.200 ever end up

00:37:34.860 at Cambridge,

00:37:35.700 which is where

00:37:36.120 he did end up

00:37:36.800 getting his degree.

00:37:37.800 So,

00:37:38.000 he had made

00:37:38.580 tremendous leaps

00:37:39.680 of class

00:37:40.260 and education

00:37:40.920 within one generation.

00:37:42.800 We know they were

00:37:43.740 very proud

00:37:44.500 of their father,

00:37:45.580 I mean,

00:37:45.960 and they grew up

00:37:46.800 reading the academic

00:37:47.820 books that he won

00:37:48.500 for prizes

00:37:49.160 at Cambridge.

00:37:50.380 But you see that

00:37:51.120 a lot in a lot

00:37:52.460 of the families

00:37:53.000 I wrote about.

00:37:54.240 But then,

00:37:54.560 on the other hand,

00:37:55.140 you also have parents

00:37:56.080 who are very talented

00:37:57.160 but didn't quite

00:37:58.800 achieve what they

00:37:59.980 wanted to.

00:38:00.680 And I think

00:38:01.720 they infused

00:38:03.000 their children

00:38:03.540 with it.

00:38:03.980 They sort of

00:38:04.660 put that energy

00:38:06.140 into their children.

00:38:07.060 So,

00:38:07.540 Tony Kushner's mother

00:38:08.620 was a tremendous

00:38:09.560 concert violinist,

00:38:11.460 one of the youngest

00:38:12.260 women ever

00:38:13.320 to chair

00:38:13.860 the violin

00:38:14.660 in an orchestra

00:38:15.480 and had to

00:38:17.140 give up her career

00:38:17.920 because she gave up

00:38:19.060 her career

00:38:19.340 for her children,

00:38:20.080 basically,

00:38:20.620 but really felt

00:38:22.840 that she had been

00:38:24.980 robbed of,

00:38:25.880 like,

00:38:26.080 the potential

00:38:26.440 for greatness.

00:38:27.680 And Tony Kushner,

00:38:28.520 the playwright,

00:38:29.520 speaks a lot

00:38:30.260 about how much

00:38:31.100 she urged him on

00:38:32.220 and how much

00:38:32.820 her energy

00:38:33.640 and talent

00:38:34.260 kind of motivated him.

00:38:35.800 Or Diane Paulus,

00:38:37.140 who's this

00:38:37.700 extraordinary director

00:38:39.060 in New York

00:38:40.340 and elsewhere,

00:38:41.680 really one-of-kind

00:38:43.880 generational talent.

00:38:45.880 Her father

00:38:46.380 had directed

00:38:47.020 theater in Tokyo

00:38:48.200 when he was

00:38:48.860 in the military

00:38:49.580 after the end

00:38:50.620 of World War II

00:38:51.400 and loved,

00:38:53.120 loved,

00:38:53.380 loved it

00:38:53.760 but came back

00:38:54.240 to New York,

00:38:54.820 had kids,

00:38:55.460 couldn't quite figure it out,

00:38:56.480 never really got there.

00:38:57.880 But she says

00:38:58.680 she remembers

00:38:59.260 looking at a photo

00:39:00.560 of him

00:39:00.980 when he was

00:39:01.600 in Tokyo

00:39:02.500 right before

00:39:03.540 play went on

00:39:04.320 and having that

00:39:04.840 same harried look

00:39:05.560 that she has

00:39:06.140 before a play

00:39:06.800 and realizing

00:39:07.380 how much

00:39:07.900 his dream

00:39:08.920 was sort of

00:39:09.420 completed by her.

00:39:11.240 Yeah,

00:39:11.380 and I think

00:39:11.680 Joe Kennedy

00:39:12.160 was another example.

00:39:13.220 Like,

00:39:13.280 he was successful

00:39:13.800 in business

00:39:14.360 and then he

00:39:14.840 sort of took

00:39:15.600 his ambition

00:39:16.020 to the political realm.

00:39:17.740 I think he wanted

00:39:18.280 to be president

00:39:18.960 but that wasn't

00:39:19.720 the cards for him

00:39:20.600 probably because of,

00:39:21.900 you know,

00:39:22.160 people didn't like Catholics

00:39:23.220 and then he's like,

00:39:24.360 okay,

00:39:24.600 if I can't be president

00:39:25.520 then one of my kids

00:39:26.280 is going to be president.

00:39:27.420 If that's true,

00:39:27.940 that's a great example.

00:39:29.060 Yeah,

00:39:29.280 that makes a lot of sense.

00:39:30.260 That rings true.

00:39:31.420 So something else

00:39:32.000 you talk about,

00:39:32.800 well,

00:39:33.000 I was struck by this

00:39:33.840 as I was reading the book,

00:39:35.340 these high achieving families,

00:39:37.060 these siblings

00:39:37.480 that you highlight.

00:39:38.720 The parents had

00:39:39.600 really high expectations

00:39:40.760 but they were pretty hands-off.

00:39:43.060 They like,

00:39:43.300 weren't helicopter parenting.

00:39:44.960 So you can flesh out

00:39:45.540 that dynamic

00:39:45.860 because I think

00:39:46.120 it was really interesting.

00:39:46.600 It was like,

00:39:46.780 high expectations

00:39:47.560 but coupled with

00:39:49.260 a hands-off

00:39:49.820 approach to parenting.

00:39:50.540 I think that's

00:39:52.340 a great observation.

00:39:53.960 The parents

00:39:54.440 set this sort of

00:39:55.020 ambient expectation

00:39:56.620 that their children

00:39:57.540 would work hard,

00:39:58.360 would succeed,

00:39:59.420 would throw themselves

00:40:00.200 into whatever they did

00:40:01.240 and then they let them

00:40:02.760 do it.

00:40:03.700 You know,

00:40:04.120 there's all this research

00:40:05.240 that finds,

00:40:06.180 really good research

00:40:07.040 that finds that

00:40:07.900 when young kids

00:40:09.100 are doing a puzzle,

00:40:10.460 if their parent

00:40:11.380 or even,

00:40:12.280 you know,

00:40:12.940 somebody on the research team

00:40:14.440 intervenes

00:40:15.480 and kind of solves

00:40:16.260 the puzzle for the kid,

00:40:17.340 the next time

00:40:19.180 the kid sits down

00:40:19.960 to do a puzzle,

00:40:21.100 that kid is much

00:40:21.960 less motivated

00:40:23.440 and I think

00:40:24.780 that that

00:40:25.640 probably applies

00:40:26.860 not just to small children

00:40:28.240 but certainly

00:40:29.380 to adolescents

00:40:30.120 and I think

00:40:31.760 it's very common

00:40:32.620 for parents

00:40:33.280 of my generation

00:40:34.480 to feel this responsibility

00:40:36.280 for their kid's success

00:40:37.600 and to really

00:40:38.700 get in there

00:40:39.460 with them

00:40:40.000 and like sit down

00:40:40.900 and help them

00:40:41.500 write their essays

00:40:42.300 and knock it out

00:40:43.140 with them

00:40:43.620 and be hovering

00:40:44.960 by their side

00:40:45.880 and I just think

00:40:47.280 it makes it harder

00:40:47.920 for the kid

00:40:48.580 to do it

00:40:49.140 on his own

00:40:50.000 the next time

00:40:50.640 and they're less motivated

00:40:51.860 because they feel

00:40:52.480 less ownership of it

00:40:53.340 and they're not doing it

00:40:54.120 for themselves,

00:40:55.120 they're doing it

00:40:55.560 to please their parents

00:40:56.420 which is always

00:40:57.340 going to be less motivating

00:40:58.240 than doing something

00:40:59.340 to please yourself.

00:41:01.580 Yeah.

00:41:01.840 So what do you hope

00:41:02.760 people will take away

00:41:03.640 after reading your book?

00:41:05.160 You know,

00:41:05.580 one of the things

00:41:05.900 we didn't talk about

00:41:06.780 is this idea of like,

00:41:08.300 well,

00:41:08.440 how do parents

00:41:09.320 encourage their kids

00:41:10.680 to dream big

00:41:11.620 and I think

00:41:12.740 part of it

00:41:13.500 is a little bit

00:41:14.740 temperamental,

00:41:15.620 you know,

00:41:15.960 I don't know

00:41:16.660 if you can become

00:41:17.300 an optimist

00:41:17.940 if you're not

00:41:18.460 naturally one

00:41:19.340 but the parents

00:41:20.580 and the families

00:41:21.220 I wrote about

00:41:21.880 really were

00:41:23.000 true optimists

00:41:24.500 and they said

00:41:25.920 things to their kids

00:41:27.100 like,

00:41:27.600 with God's help

00:41:28.900 all things

00:41:29.920 are possible

00:41:30.820 or just

00:41:31.860 all things possible

00:41:32.780 or,

00:41:34.000 you know,

00:41:34.160 the sun shines

00:41:34.920 on all of us

00:41:35.580 meaning there's

00:41:35.980 opportunity for everyone

00:41:37.380 and I think

00:41:38.660 those kinds

00:41:39.220 of inspiring messages

00:41:40.540 as hokey

00:41:41.220 as they are,

00:41:42.300 I think kids

00:41:43.020 need to hear it

00:41:44.020 and at the same time

00:41:45.540 I feel that

00:41:46.720 it's my hope

00:41:48.800 that parents

00:41:49.360 would tell their kids

00:41:50.520 look,

00:41:51.180 if you want to reach

00:41:51.960 for the moon

00:41:52.720 and you want to shoot

00:41:53.360 for the moon

00:41:53.920 I'm like right there

00:41:55.200 with you

00:41:55.560 and go for it

00:41:56.580 I will support you

00:41:57.400 and you should

00:41:58.380 that said

00:42:00.040 if you don't want

00:42:00.900 to shoot for the moon

00:42:01.660 that's okay too

00:42:03.300 you know what I mean

00:42:04.240 in other words

00:42:04.900 life is not all

00:42:06.260 about achievement

00:42:07.200 you know

00:42:07.860 and I love you

00:42:08.340 for who you are

00:42:09.240 it's just true

00:42:10.360 me it's about

00:42:10.780 creating a sense

00:42:11.420 of possibility

00:42:12.160 should that kid

00:42:13.060 want to aim

00:42:14.080 really high

00:42:14.680 yeah

00:42:15.620 well Susan

00:42:16.300 this has been

00:42:16.520 a great conversation

00:42:17.180 where can people

00:42:17.720 go to learn more

00:42:18.240 about the book

00:42:18.680 and your work

00:42:19.120 well I frequently

00:42:20.280 write

00:42:20.620 I'm a staff writer

00:42:21.540 at the New York

00:42:22.040 Times Magazine

00:42:22.760 so obviously

00:42:23.760 nytimes.com

00:42:25.120 I'm on Instagram

00:42:26.480 almost never anymore

00:42:28.300 at Sue Dominus

00:42:29.520 and my book

00:42:30.880 The Family Dynamic

00:42:31.760 can be found

00:42:32.820 obviously on

00:42:34.120 Amazon

00:42:35.220 but also

00:42:36.120 at independent

00:42:37.240 bookstores everywhere

00:42:38.320 fantastic

00:42:39.240 well Susan Dominus

00:42:39.960 thanks for your time

00:42:40.340 it's been a pleasure

00:42:40.800 Brett

00:42:41.700 thank you so much

00:42:42.400 for having me on

00:42:42.960 I really love

00:42:43.420 talking to you

00:42:44.040 my guest

00:42:45.300 it was Susan Dominus

00:42:46.080 she's the author

00:42:46.640 of the book

00:42:47.000 The Family Dynamic

00:42:47.860 it's available

00:42:48.420 on amazon.com

00:42:49.340 and bookstores

00:42:49.760 everywhere

00:42:50.120 check out our

00:42:51.060 show notes

00:42:51.320 at awim.is

00:42:52.240 family dynamic

00:42:53.300 where you find

00:42:53.700 links to resources

00:42:54.460 where you delve

00:42:54.800 deeper into this topic

00:42:55.820 well that wraps up

00:43:04.440 another edition

00:43:05.080 of the AWIM podcast

00:43:05.980 make sure to check

00:43:06.680 out our website

00:43:07.140 at artofmanlius.com

00:43:08.260 where you find

00:43:08.600 our podcast archives

00:43:09.600 make sure to check

00:43:10.560 out our new newsletter

00:43:11.380 it's called Dying Breed

00:43:12.660 you can sign up

00:43:13.500 at dyingbreed.net

00:43:14.540 it's a great way

00:43:15.420 to support the show

00:43:16.000 directly

00:43:16.400 as always

00:43:17.660 thank you for the

00:43:18.320 continued support

00:43:18.860 until next time

00:43:19.360 it's Brett McKay

00:43:20.060 remind you to

00:43:20.800 listen to the

00:43:21.160 podcast

00:43:21.560 but put what

00:43:22.660 you've heard

00:43:23.060 into action

00:43:23.800 hey before we go

00:43:40.840 got one more episode

00:43:41.660 for you to check

00:43:42.320 out on the art

00:43:42.860 of manliness

00:43:43.320 I talked to

00:43:44.060 Alex Petkus

00:43:44.660 about Plutarch's

00:43:45.700 lives

00:43:46.200 and why this

00:43:46.960 ancient collection

00:43:47.660 of biographies

00:43:48.300 has shaped leaders

00:43:49.180 for centuries

00:43:49.760 and how Plutarch

00:43:50.780 can still sharpen

00:43:51.480 your sense of virtue

00:43:52.340 judgment

00:43:53.100 and character

00:43:53.840 today

00:43:54.260 it's timeless

00:43:55.220 stuff

00:43:55.620 and a great

00:43:56.320 entry point

00:43:56.880 into the works

00:43:57.720 of Plutarch

00:43:58.440 check it out

00:43:59.360 at aom.is

00:44:00.480 slash Plutarch

00:44:01.320 that's aom.is

00:44:02.740 slash Plutarch

The Art of Manliness - November 11, 2025

Family Culture and the Sibling Effect — What Really Shapes Who You Become

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