The Art of Manliness - Finally Learn to Say No

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.440 When someone asks us to do something we don't want to do, we often say yes, even though we

00:00:16.180 want to say no, because we think saying no will feel terrible. But my guest, Dr. Vanessa

00:00:21.520 Patrick says the opposite is true. We actually feel great when we say no. So why do we have

00:00:27.120 such a hard time doing so? Today on the show, Vanessa, who is the author of The Power of

00:00:31.920 Saying No, the new science of how to say no that puts you in charge of your life, answers

00:00:36.420 that question and more. She shares how to categorize the ask you get into quadrants to determine

00:00:42.160 whether you should say yes or no to them. And she explains how to give an empowered refusal,

00:00:47.740 a no that's phrased in a way that makes it less likely to create offense or pushback. So you

00:00:52.000 can start saying no to the things that don't matter and spend more of your time on the things

00:00:55.860 that do. After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash say no.

00:01:15.240 All right, Vanessa Patrick, welcome to the show.

00:01:17.800 Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here.

00:01:20.280 So you are a professor of marketing and you've done a lot of research on why people have a hard

00:01:25.380 time saying no, even when they really want to say no. I think a lot of people have this problem.

00:01:30.880 I know I have this problem. And today we're going to talk about what you can do about it and how you

00:01:35.960 can get better at saying no. But first, let's talk about why it is that saying no can be so hard.

00:01:41.800 You say it has a lot to do with our desire to belong to groups. What's going on there?

00:01:48.320 So the two-letter word, no, it's a tiny little word,

00:01:52.060 but it causes a lot of us a lot of angst and is ridden with conflict and anxiety.

00:01:59.700 And so the reason that I'm really interested in is why is that the case? And so in my research,

00:02:05.780 I've identified three main reasons for why we find saying no so difficult. And it boils down to

00:02:14.060 people and how people think about us and how we relate to other people. And so those three reasons

00:02:21.940 are, one, a concern for our relationships with others. So we want to have good relationships

00:02:30.080 with others. We want people to like us. We want to belong to social groups and we want friends.

00:02:36.440 And so we believe that when we say no, we are likely to damage that relationship. So we often

00:02:43.740 say yes when we want to say no. The second driver of saying yes when we want to say no is our concern

00:02:50.180 for our own reputation, the desire to look good in the eyes of others. And that essentially is this

00:02:58.760 motivation for us to look competent and capable and able to do anything, regardless of how difficult

00:03:07.040 the ask is. And we are very motivated to impress others in this way. And so we sometimes say yes,

00:03:15.500 because we want to impress people and take on stuff that is difficult. The other reason, and this is a

00:03:22.900 very, very important reason. And that is that we have never really learned how to say no effectively.

00:03:30.100 I mean, if you think about when we are born, we are born pretty selfish and focused on what we want.

00:03:36.340 And if you think about a toddler, they are very good at saying, no, I don't want this and I don't want

00:03:41.660 that. But we socialize that out of our children, right? We tell them that they need to be cooperative and

00:03:48.140 kind and giving and sacrifice their own wants and allow other people to have their way. And so we kind of

00:03:57.520 socialize that out of people. So people have never really learned how to say no effectively, which is where

00:04:03.340 my book comes in.

00:04:05.140 All right. So speaking of that idea that our desire to belong to groups and nurture relationships, you call this,

00:04:12.340 you say no is the harmony buster, right? Because as soon as you say no, you think, oh my gosh, this person's not

00:04:17.020 going to like me anymore. And that, that hurts.

00:04:20.260 Yeah. Yeah. And you know, when people ask us a favor or ask us to go somewhere or invite us someplace,

00:04:27.580 they are expecting us to say yes. They wouldn't have asked us if they didn't expect that yes.

00:04:33.820 And so saying no goes against that expectation. And that is something we struggle with a lot and is

00:04:40.120 filled with conflict because we have to actually go against the expectations of others.

00:04:46.440 So I described no as a socially dispreferred response because no one wants us to say no to

00:04:53.780 them.

00:04:54.220 Right. I think we've all experienced that when a family member or a friend made a, like a pretty

00:04:59.100 heavy ask, right? You're like, oh geez, that's going to really be inconvenient. And I just don't

00:05:03.820 have the bandwidth, but you still say yes because you care about the relationship and you feel like

00:05:08.520 if you do say no, it'll hurt the relationship.

00:05:10.580 Right. Right. And in the book, I, you know, help people categorize those different asks and also

00:05:17.860 learn to say no to the things that don't matter. And even if it's a big ask from someone important,

00:05:24.800 if it's really a hell no for you, then it should not be something that you engage in.

00:05:31.260 Well, this idea that our desire for reputation or status also contributes to us saying yes

00:05:37.740 to things to which we want to say no. I thought that was interesting because you talk about

00:05:41.380 this, you see this a lot when we say yes to acquaintances. I think most of us have no problem

00:05:47.180 saying no to a complete stranger or it's not saying no to like a close friend or a family

00:05:52.100 member because you know, well, you might have a tight relationship with them. So, you know,

00:05:55.980 if you say no, they're not going to care and they're not going to think less of you.

00:06:00.480 But acquaintances, that gets hard because you say we can fall into this acquaintance trap.

00:06:05.240 What is the acquaintance trap?

00:06:07.100 So the acquaintance trap is essentially this idea that we have different types of relationships with

00:06:13.480 different sorts of people. And so, as you rightly pointed out to a complete stranger, it's not that

00:06:19.300 hard to say no because we're never going to see them again. And you can say no without any fear of

00:06:24.920 your reputation or relationship being damaged because it's a non-issue. And with people who

00:06:30.200 are very close to us, we are very secure in those relationships. And we are not worried if we say

00:06:35.800 no to our mom, that our mom will stop talking to us. I mean, you know, our mom is going to be our mom

00:06:40.580 and she will get over it and talk to us eventually. And so, essentially, it's the whole bunch of other

00:06:47.380 people who form the majority of the relationships in our lives, who are our acquaintances, to whom we have

00:06:54.400 the most difficult time saying no. Because we have good relationships with them, but not great

00:07:01.920 relationships with them. They are weak social ties. And we do care about how we look in their eyes.

00:07:08.980 And so, that combination of reputation and relationships with acquaintances put us in a

00:07:14.800 situation very often where it's really hard to say no to them.

00:07:18.560 Okay. So, our drive for wanting to belong or keep relationships strong or our drive for reputation

00:07:23.640 makes it hard to say no. And we'll talk about this idea that we don't know how to say no. We're going

00:07:28.220 to dig deep into that. But before we do, you've also done research on what happens whenever we

00:07:32.980 say yes to things we want to say no to and how it makes us feel. What does that research show?

00:07:39.760 It's interesting because most people feel that they are going to feel really guilty for saying no.

00:07:45.160 No. And that saying no is going to make them feel bad. And that is actually a forecast that is

00:07:52.000 incorrect. What actually happens in real life is that it's when we say yes to the things we don't want

00:07:59.440 to do that we feel really bad. We feel resentful. We feel angry. We feel guilty. And when we say no to

00:08:07.880 those things, we feel relieved and happy and freer. And so, even though we think that saying no will

00:08:16.120 feel bad and make us feel bad, it's actually the opposite. It's saying yes to the things that don't

00:08:23.200 motivate us, that are not aligned with our purpose, that don't leverage our unique strengths. Those are

00:08:30.860 the things that feel bad.

00:08:32.220 Yeah. I imagine that's a source of a lot of burnout that people might be experiencing.

00:08:35.700 Oh, absolutely. 100%. When we fill our calendars with busy work and stuff that's not aligned with

00:08:42.600 our identity, stuff that doesn't make us feel energized and good about doing it, we feel really

00:08:49.240 resentful to the people who are making us do those things and angry with that. And if we spend more time

00:08:56.260 doing the things that give us joy and are fulfilling and tap into what we are able to uniquely contribute,

00:09:03.560 it's a completely different experience.

00:09:07.420 So, saying yes to things you want to say no to, it makes you feel put upon, disempowered,

00:09:12.400 not an agent like you're acted on. Like it just, that doesn't feel good.

00:09:15.920 Absolutely.

00:09:16.640 Yeah. And I think it's interesting. I know I've experienced that where

00:09:20.040 I'll have this ask given to me and I'm just wrestling with it. Oh my gosh, I don't want to do this.

00:09:26.220 And then I finally say no. And I'm like, oh yeah, that wasn't so bad. But then when I say yes,

00:09:32.220 just think, oh, this is awful. And I'm just complaining about the entire time. And for some

00:09:35.540 reason, I can't remember that. You'll feel worse saying yes to this thing instead of saying no.

00:09:40.800 Yeah. Yeah. The fact is that when we say yes to something and we feel really bad,

00:09:45.620 our psychological immune system kicks in. And we immediately want to start coping with that.

00:09:51.900 And to do that, we often try to search desperately for a silver lining,

00:09:58.020 something that's good about the fact that you are spending your time doing this thing that you

00:10:03.080 really did not want to do. And I recommend that we kind of manage that psychological immune system

00:10:11.660 so that we don't repeat the mistake again. So, when we do feel resentful and when we do feel that

00:10:18.520 sense of, I'm wasting my time, I really shouldn't be doing this, it's a learning opportunity for us

00:10:25.280 to really recognize that this is something that I really don't like to do. I should avoid doing it

00:10:32.840 in the future. Rather than let that psychological immune system kick in and not learn from that

00:10:38.880 experience. Another thing I think, and you talk about this in the book, that contributes to

00:10:43.140 us having such a hard time saying no, is that we often go around in the world thinking,

00:10:49.580 well, I'm the only one that could do this. And it reminds me of a quote from Bertrand Russell.

00:10:54.940 He said, one of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work

00:11:00.180 is terribly important. Like you're this indispensable person. But actually, when you say no,

00:11:05.780 there's probably someone else that can do the thing that you said no to.

00:11:08.160 Oh, absolutely. In fact, that's a very, very vivid thing to remember. That whenever you feel

00:11:14.920 that you're the only person who can do this, you need to check yourself. Because I often remind

00:11:21.000 myself that the graveyards are full of indispensable people. The reality is that when someone makes a

00:11:29.220 request of you, most often, they just need that thing done. And while you might be a great candidate

00:11:37.380 to do it, you might not be the only candidate to do it. And the reality is, when you say no,

00:11:43.940 they're simply going to go back to their list and go down that list to the next person.

00:11:49.340 That's what happens most of the time.

00:11:51.500 Yeah. The graveyards are full of indispensable people. Reminds me, my great-grandfather,

00:11:57.220 he self-published a short memoir. And at the end of it, he had a poem called The Indispensable Man.

00:12:03.200 And Dwight Eisenhower actually used to carry this poem around. And it goes like this.

00:12:09.760 Sometime when you're feeling important, sometime when your ego's in bloom, sometime when you take

00:12:14.560 it for granted, you're the best qualified in the room. Sometime when you feel that you're going

00:12:19.180 would leave an unfillable hole, just follow these simple instructions and see how they humble your

00:12:24.620 soul. Take a bucket and fill it with water. Put your hand in it up to the wrist. Pull it out,

00:12:30.040 and the hole that's remaining is a measure of how much you'll be missed. You can splash all you wish

00:12:35.120 when you enter. You may stir up the water galore, but stop, and you'll find that in no time, it looks

00:12:40.760 quite the same as before. The moral of this quaint example is to do just the best that you can.

00:12:46.740 Be proud of yourself, but remember, there's no indispensable man. So I think it's a good reminder,

00:12:53.220 you know, when you're feeling like, man, if I don't say yes to this, then everything's going to fall

00:12:56.360 apart that, you know, no, in most cases, other arrangements will be made and things will just

00:13:01.900 keep moving on without you. Yeah, I mean, it's really humbling. And you know, you become able to

00:13:08.740 say no to a lot more things when you have a more realistic view of what you can contribute. Having a

00:13:15.920 clear idea of what you can do and do uniquely is so important because in some domains, we might be

00:13:24.000 indispensable. And it's so important to be able to focus our energies on those domains because there

00:13:30.480 we can make a positive difference in the world. If we scatter our attention and do anything that

00:13:37.080 everyone asks us, then we diffuse the impact that we can have. And so our self-awareness needs to kind

00:13:44.760 of focus on where am I truly indispensable and where am I not? All right, well, let's dig into how

00:13:51.380 people can start saying no more often and feel good about it. One thing you recommend is that

00:13:56.920 people avoid calling themselves a people pleaser. And I think a lot of people who have a hard time

00:14:02.340 saying no, they do like, well, I'm just such a people pleaser. Why do you recommend people not

00:14:06.180 labeling themselves as that? You know, in my research, I would very often ask people to tell

00:14:11.640 me stories about when they said yes, when they wanted to say no. And they would tell me those stories,

00:14:16.920 but they would also give themselves the excuse or give themselves an out by explaining to me that,

00:14:24.120 oh, I'm just a people pleaser. You know, I have this terrible people pleasing tendency.

00:14:28.880 And the idea is that the words that we use are really important. If we call ourselves people

00:14:36.180 pleasers, we are more likely to act like people pleasers. Because the self-talk, the way we speak to

00:14:43.720 ourselves, the way we describe ourselves does implicate our identity. So we need to be able to

00:14:50.780 talk to ourselves in a way that allows ourselves to act in the way we want to act. So we should not

00:14:59.280 call ourselves or give ourselves a label that puts us in a situation that we don't want to be in. So

00:15:06.360 people pleaser is definitely one of those labels. Because we make greater inroads into our identity

00:15:13.700 when we use words like that. And it tells us who we are.

00:15:18.240 So part of how to say no is knowing when to say no. And you mentioned earlier about categorizing the

00:15:26.420 and you actually have this really useful quadrant that people can use for deciding when to say yes

00:15:32.880 and when to say no. Can you walk us through these four quadrants?

00:15:36.560 Right. So this is the framework that I call the decipher the ask framework. And it's really about

00:15:42.900 deciphering between the good for me activities versus the not good for me activities. And the framework

00:15:50.940 takes two lenses. The first lens is how costly is taking this on going to be for me? Is it going to be

00:16:00.980 very, very, very effortful, time consuming, energy consuming, etc.? And so that's one dimension. How costly is it

00:16:12.100 for me? Versus how much benefit will the asker get from me doing this? You know, like, is this tapping into

00:16:21.160 something that I can uniquely do and really make a positive difference? Or does it have no real benefit for me

00:16:29.040 doing it at all? And so it's got these two dimensions that we consider. And so if you think

00:16:35.440 about the different asks, you can think about something like low cost to you ask, pretty easy

00:16:41.760 for you to do, but has a huge benefit for other people. I call these as pass the salt asks. So

00:16:48.220 imagine you're sitting at the dining table and the salt shaker is sitting in front of you and someone

00:16:53.220 says, hey, Vanessa, can you pass the salt? And I just lift up the salt shaker and pass it along the

00:16:58.560 table. For me, it was super easy to do, not a big deal. But for the other person, presumably, you know,

00:17:05.120 they really needed salt for their meal and it's going to transform their meal. So it's a big deal

00:17:09.220 for them. There are some asks like those, which the pass the salt asks, which might be useful to think

00:17:17.500 about saying yes to because they are very low cost to you, but they actually make a positive

00:17:22.700 difference in the world. In complete contrast to pass the salt asks are what I call bake your famous

00:17:30.320 lasagna asks. These are asks that are very costly for you. They are hugely time consuming, like baking a

00:17:38.780 lasagna, for example. They might be effortful. And so if you've been asked by a friend to bake this

00:17:47.180 lasagna for a potluck party where everyone else is bringing party trays or picking up cookies from a

00:17:54.280 store and you are the only person who's slaving, making this tedious dish, maybe those are the kind

00:18:01.680 of asks that you should be thinking about saying no to. And so thinking about the kind of asks that

00:18:09.520 are coming your way are really important. And the reason we need to say no to bake your famous

00:18:15.140 lasagna asks is so we can say yes to hero's journey asks. So hero's journey asks are the ones where

00:18:23.220 they might be high effort for you. You might have to give a lot of yourself, but they also make a

00:18:30.460 positive difference in the world. And so we need to think about where, and we talked about this a

00:18:36.060 little bit earlier, right? When we're talking about where you spend your energy, how do you find the

00:18:41.460 things that you can uniquely do that you are indispensable for in that specific domain in

00:18:48.880 the moment? And so spending our time doing those because those are energizing and motivating and

00:18:56.840 feel good because you know that you're uniquely contributing to the world.

00:19:01.520 And then that final one, that low cost to you, but low to other people, that's the email tweet post

00:19:06.280 ask, right? Yes. So those are the kind of asks which are low benefit to other people, not very high cost

00:19:14.380 to you, but are they worth doing? So in the book, I talk about a few things, you know, I call them

00:19:22.220 bullshit jobs because they are probably not worth doing. If you are, if you see yourself doing stuff 0.93

00:19:29.860 that's making no difference to the world, however easy it is, you should probably not spend even a

00:19:36.540 minute doing it, right? And so you can think about discussing with the asker whether those things

00:19:42.140 should even be done or should they be outsourced or just eliminated so that no one has to do those

00:19:49.400 kind of jobs. And so once we identify and become much better at spotting the kind of ask that it is,

00:19:58.720 deciphering the kind of ask that it is, then how we respond to those asks becomes pretty obvious and

00:20:06.860 straightforward. Yeah. I thought this quadrant was really useful and it's, I've been thinking

00:20:11.020 about the ask that I get and putting it into there. So the low cost to you, low benefit to others,

00:20:16.220 that's the email tweet post, automatic no, probably maybe it doesn't have to be done. The low cost to

00:20:22.240 you, high benefit to others. Examples of that you gave in your line of work since you're a professor,

00:20:27.180 you know, writing recommendation letters, giving feedback to student presentations,

00:20:31.380 things like that. It's, it's easy to do, but high benefit of the person. But you also say,

00:20:35.980 you got to be careful saying yes to those things because you have this idea from George Washington.

00:20:41.200 Yes. Many makers make a muckle.

00:20:43.460 Right. Yeah. You don't want to say yes too much. Then your entire workflow is just

00:20:47.220 caught up with these little small past the salt ass. 0.99

00:20:49.940 Yes. Yes. And when you were talking about the bake your famous lasagna, that made me think of 1.00

00:20:55.680 like the no indispensable man problem, right? It's like, well, you're the only one who can make

00:20:59.860 this lasagna. It's like, well, you could get a lasagna from Costco and it'll probably taste the

00:21:03.560 same. Just do that. I don't need to do this. Oh yeah. Just go to the grocery store and buy a

00:21:08.840 party tray like everybody else. Yeah. You'll be good. And then I like the hero's journey. If it's a high

00:21:13.740 cost to you, but a high benefit to others, then say yes, but then just make sure you're really

00:21:17.640 measuring the benefits. I think that's a really useful quadrant.

00:21:20.520 Yeah. But even, you know, in the hero's journey, one needs to be very careful that it is in fact

00:21:25.560 a hero's journey and that the benefit that you're conferring on others is real. So you need to,

00:21:32.700 even when you take those on, ask the right questions. Don't just make assumptions about

00:21:37.900 the benefit or sometimes just asking, why are you asking me? You know, I know you've approached me

00:21:43.960 for this, but can you, can you explain why you asked me to do this? And sometimes you'll hear

00:21:49.060 stuff about why their thought process, how they see you as a person, what you contribute,

00:21:56.220 and then you can get a better understanding of, you know, how your talent is viewed in the context

00:22:02.620 of the organization. We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:22:11.440 And now back to the show. Okay. So we've talked about the groundwork for saying no,

00:22:16.440 don't refer to yourself as a people pleaser and decide when you should say no by categorizing

00:22:22.440 asks into quadrants. So you should probably say no when it's low effort for you, but low reward,

00:22:28.340 or a lot of effort for you, but low benefit. And you should probably say yes when it's low effort

00:22:34.200 for you and high benefit to others or high effort for you, but high potential reward too.

00:22:40.780 Now let's get into actually how you give a no. So you and your research team have developed this idea

00:22:45.900 that's called the empowered refusal. And it's a way of saying no, that will allow you to still

00:22:52.280 maintain relationships and maintain your reputation. So what is an empowered refusal?

00:22:58.340 So the empowered refusal is a way of saying no. And it's a way of saying no that stems from your

00:23:05.240 identity. So you look inwards and identify what are the values, priorities, preferences,

00:23:13.160 and beliefs that you have. And then you communicate your no using who you are, your identity as the

00:23:21.760 basis for saying no. And so because you implicate your identity, you come across with greater

00:23:28.100 conviction and determination and come across also as much more persuasive to the other person

00:23:33.960 and do not invite pushback.

00:23:36.840 Well, so what's an example of that, of saying a no that's tied up with your identity and saying

00:23:40.940 it in a way that doesn't get pushed back?

00:23:43.400 So when you speak from your identity, your identity is who you are. It is a stable stance,

00:23:50.900 right? And so words that are empowering and implicate your identity are words like saying

00:23:57.100 I don't, I never, I always. It is my policy too. As soon as you use words like that, you come across

00:24:07.160 as much more empowered than if you use words like I can't, I shouldn't, I wish, I could, but.

00:24:15.100 So the language that we use can communicate and tap into identity quite effectively. So in our

00:24:23.720 research studies, we've contrasted the phrase I can't with the phrase I don't. And what we show in

00:24:32.600 our work is that when you say I can't, you come across as disempowered, not in control of the

00:24:40.780 situation. You communicate that in some other circumstance you would, but the situation does

00:24:48.360 not allow you to. So you come across as disempowered. As soon as you say I don't, you come across as

00:24:56.420 having a much more stable stance on the matter. You talk about who you are, you implicate the kind

00:25:04.220 of person that you are. So it's a small change in the language, but it has a tremendously powerful

00:25:11.540 impact on the listener as well as on yourself. Yeah. I've noticed with my, my own experience,

00:25:18.940 I've do that with, with my work, I get asked to like, you know, come speak to things or maybe do

00:25:23.840 something like that. And I, my answer is, uh, I just, that's something I don't do. And it's because

00:25:29.660 like, I just want to be with my kids. Like I want to be a good dad. Like that's, that's the priority

00:25:33.200 for me. And it makes it easy to say no. Like I don't have to think about it. Yeah, exactly.

00:25:37.700 Exactly. And the research shows that when you tell someone no using an I don't phrase,

00:25:43.560 they're more willing to accept it. And if you say I can't, they're, they'll start trying to

00:25:47.120 negotiate with you. Is that how it works? Exactly. And so we basically show that, you know,

00:25:52.440 saying no in a way that stems from your identity and using words like I don't is so much more

00:25:59.540 empowering and is so much more effective in persuading the other person that you are not

00:26:07.600 the right person for this job. And it's important to remember that when you are saying no, because

00:26:15.120 you make it about yourself, your no is about you and not a rejection of the other person.

00:26:21.040 And that's a really interesting kind of change in the way we think about it. If we say,

00:26:26.640 I'm giving voice to my values, what I, my priorities, my preferences, my beliefs,

00:26:33.440 this is not about you. This is certainly not personal and it's not a rejection of you.

00:26:38.520 It changes the dynamic.

00:26:41.580 So this is how you're able to maintain the relationship or even make it stronger.

00:26:45.280 Exactly.

00:26:45.540 Right.

00:26:46.140 Exactly.

00:26:46.820 And it makes it stronger because now people know something about you that they didn't know.

00:26:50.460 Absolutely.

00:26:50.980 So related to this idea of tying your no to your identity and saying, I don't instead of I can't.

00:26:58.900 Your I don'ts grow out of setting what you call personal policies for yourself. So not doing

00:27:05.260 speaking engagements because my priority is being a dad is a personal policy. What are some other

00:27:11.640 personal policies that you've seen in your own life, but also in the research you've done?

00:27:16.420 So personal policies are simple rules that we set up for ourselves that guide our actions and

00:27:23.220 decisions. They are the ways in which our values and our preferences get manifested in how we operate

00:27:31.420 in the world. So for example, you know, I'm a morning person and I like my mornings to be

00:27:38.380 dedicated to creative work, writing, research, thinking. And so I have a personal policy where

00:27:46.100 I don't do meetings in the morning unless it's a standing administrative meeting that I have no

00:27:51.040 control over. So those are the kind of things that you have to think about. You have to think

00:27:57.120 about how you would like the world to be and to what extent can you control and manage the situation

00:28:05.020 so that the world is the way you want it to be? How can you create operating principles?

00:28:10.780 You give examples of several creative type people who have created these sorts of policies for

00:28:16.080 themselves. Like there's a lot of writers who say, you know, look, the thing I'm good at that

00:28:20.000 allows me to give the most value to the world is writing good books. So they say, here's a list of

00:28:25.240 things I don't do. I don't do speaking engagements. I'm not going to read your manuscript. I'm not going

00:28:29.620 to meet with you. And it's not because he doesn't like you and doesn't wish you well for whatever thing

00:28:34.860 you're doing. It's like, it's going to prevent him from doing the writing that he knows will actually

00:28:39.400 have a big impact. Yes. And understanding that, you know, where you can impact the world in a

00:28:44.980 positive way, how your talent can be best used and your time can be best used. These are really

00:28:53.220 important things for us to reflect on and then make policies around. It sounds like having these

00:28:58.520 personal policies and understanding how to use the I don't language, this would allow you to create

00:29:05.700 templates for yourself on how to say no when you do get those asks. So instead of having to think

00:29:09.840 about it every single time, you get an email for with a request and you already have the template

00:29:14.860 because like, all right, here's my identity. I know what I'm all about. Here's my personal policy.

00:29:19.560 And then you just, you create a template that can be used in any request.

00:29:23.820 Exactly. And I think that that it can be very efficient to have those sort of decision rules.

00:29:28.760 So I'll give you an example, Brett. One of the things that happens quite often as a mom

00:29:34.080 is that you get asked to volunteer for various different things at your children's schools,

00:29:39.800 right? Now having a lens with which to decide what you volunteer for and what you don't volunteer for

00:29:46.520 is efficient and effective. So in my view, I look at it and think if it has to do with teaching the

00:29:53.640 kids something, sharing my knowledge, I'm all in. I will go and read to the kids. I will go and do a

00:30:01.560 presentation. I will do career day. I will do those kinds of things. If it doesn't tap into those

00:30:08.020 things, I'm less likely to do them. So if you ask me if the teacher wants someone to stuff envelopes

00:30:14.420 or, you know, go and buy treats for the class, I don't typically volunteer to do those kinds of

00:30:21.480 things because I've got a lens with which I decide what I'm going to volunteer for and what I'm not

00:30:28.140 going to volunteer for. Okay. So we've talked about how to say no by sorting ask into quadrants

00:30:33.740 by saying, I don't, instead of I can't, and then developing personal policies that these I don'ts

00:30:41.200 grow out of. Something else you talk about in the book is how this preparation can help you manage

00:30:46.360 what you call the spotlight effect. And this is when someone asks you to do something and you just,

00:30:51.100 you feel put on the spot. Like everyone's eyes are on you waiting for your answer. And this can either

00:30:55.860 be in your head, like you have a psychological audience in your head, or it might be literally

00:31:00.460 someone asks you to do something and everyone else, there's a whole bunch of people there watching

00:31:04.700 you waiting for your answer. So you feel under pressure. And so you end up just saying yes to

00:31:09.880 make the spotlight go away, but some preparation can help you deal with that spotlight. So you don't

00:31:14.640 automatically say yes. So how would this play out in an example? Like let's say you're at a work

00:31:20.360 meeting and the boss says, Hey, can you stay late to do X? Yeah. So it would be really helpful to

00:31:27.760 have a policy around that. Now, if it is important, so the book is not about getting out of things

00:31:35.840 that are your actual job or getting out of things because of, you know, laziness or other sorts of

00:31:43.440 priorities. So it's really about taking on stuff and saying no to things that are not your

00:31:50.400 responsibility. So the first question you need to ask is why am I, why is he asking me? Is it super

00:31:57.180 urgent? Is it super important? Is it something that can be handled in a different way? So imagine that

00:32:03.900 there's a crisis at work and it needs to be done. Maybe that's not the best time to push back and,

00:32:10.340 you know, exert your own personal policy. Perhaps it's a good time to just help out. But then after

00:32:18.140 the crisis has died down to go back and speak to your boss about, you know, a last minute change and

00:32:27.580 asking me to stay late doesn't work for me because I have these family commitments or, you know, whatever

00:32:34.400 the reason is that you want to say no. Alternatively, so if it's not a crisis situation, you could

00:32:41.380 just say, hey, you know, you know that I've got family commitments starting at 5 p.m. and there's an

00:32:46.660 expectation that I'm going to be home at 5. I can't change that last minute. So those are the kind of

00:32:52.160 things that you have to learn to communicate and learn to respond depending on the situation. What personal

00:33:00.100 policies do is that you've already decided what you prefer, what you hope will happen. So they just

00:33:07.460 become easier to use as the infrastructure to be able to communicate a more effective refusal.

00:33:15.640 Let's say you give an empowered no. I think most people are going to be like, they're good people.

00:33:18.820 They're like, okay, I understand that. And they move on. Some people though, they just can't take a

00:33:22.700 hint and you're going to get a lot of pushback. How do you handle people who have a hard time taking no

00:33:27.860 for an answer? Yeah. So we will encounter pushy askers, unfortunately, and there will be people

00:33:34.680 who will not take no for an answer, even if you've said an empowered refusal. I think recognizing

00:33:41.140 how these people operate and learning to manage them is very important. So, you know, in the book,

00:33:49.260 I call pushy askers, walnut trees. And I use the metaphor of a walnut tree because it becomes a vivid

00:34:00.260 imagery to describe people who will not take no for an answer. So the long story short, the black 1.00

00:34:08.040 American walnut tree is essentially this beautiful tree with a luxuriant canopy and a root system that

00:34:16.280 goes out 50 feet in the area. But it dominates the landscape. It stunts the growth of all the other

00:34:25.560 trees around it. And this is because it exudes into the soil, a toxin called juglone. And so walnut trees

00:34:33.900 are like people who will not take no for an answer. It's all about them and what they want, your preferences,

00:34:40.020 your values, they don't matter. What I've found in my work is that as soon as you kind of reframe

00:34:47.800 people from being, you know, toxic or jerks or difficult or all these things that people talk

00:34:54.880 about in the literature and in management books, as soon as you reframe those kind of people into 0.66

00:35:01.660 describing their behavior as walnut tree like behavior, then it becomes easier for you to handle

00:35:09.340 the walnut tree, easier for you to manage the pushback that they are giving you. And so, you know,

00:35:17.400 it's important to recognize how walnut trees act. You will find that walnut trees very often

00:35:22.860 will make a request face to face. Research shows that we are 34 times more likely to say yes to a

00:35:30.540 face to face request. They know that. And so they'll make sure to ask you face to face. The other thing

00:35:36.540 they'll do is that they'll insist on leveraging or capitalizing on the spotlight effect. So they will

00:35:42.760 insist on getting an immediate response from you. And that immediate response when you're under the

00:35:50.540 glare of the spotlight is going to be yes. And so they know that too. They often will create a home

00:35:58.720 court advantage where they are in a situation where it's impossible for you to say no to them. So they

00:36:07.160 might invite you to their house. They might take you for lunch to an expensive restaurant and foot the

00:36:12.340 bill. They basically put you in a vulnerable position so that that spotlight glares even more

00:36:18.420 brightly. So the first point with dealing with walnut trees is recognizing walnut tree behavior.

00:36:25.680 Second is recognizing how walnut trees respond to your no. Some walnut trees will explode with anger. 0.56

00:36:36.960 How dare you say no to me sort of walnut trees. Other walnut trees will give you the complete opposite.

00:36:43.740 They'll just do a silent treatment. You said no to me and I'm never going to talk to you forever.

00:36:48.240 You know, so neither response is great. But walnut trees tend to be very demanding in this way. They're

00:36:58.060 essentially trying to push you to say yes. And so I talk about two types of strategies, active pushback

00:37:06.820 and passive pushback that walnut trees engage in. So active pushback is the screaming at you or making you

00:37:15.360 feel really guilty or giving you one reason after another as to why you should say yes to their

00:37:24.020 request. So that's a much more active way they are pushing back against your no. A passive way is by

00:37:33.060 making you feel really guilty, telling you all the things you are going to miss. You know, walnut trees

00:37:39.740 are great at creating FOMO or the fear of missing out. Oh, you must come because think about all the

00:37:46.360 things you'll be missing out if you don't come. Those are passive because what the walnut tree is

00:37:52.160 trying to do in those situations is get you to change your mind, right? Yourself. So you change your

00:37:59.080 mind and say you're right. You're probably right. I should go. And so recognizing the patterns of the

00:38:05.860 walnut trees and then deciding for yourself how you are going to communicate your empowered refusal.

00:38:14.100 So I've got a whole set of strategies associated with how do you communicate your empowered refusal.

00:38:21.100 So for example, if someone's yelling at you, one strategy is to go softer, create like a vocal

00:38:26.980 contrast. If someone's yelling, you talking softer makes it very salient that they are yelling.

00:38:33.460 Repeating yourself. So saying, I just said no. I think it was pretty clear that I just said no.

00:38:42.800 And so when you repeat yourself, it sounds like you are definitely not budging. And so these are all

00:38:50.900 the different things that we have to learn and understand and think about as we are dealing with

00:38:56.400 that sort of pushback. Yeah, that advice or that insight about walnut trees will try to make the

00:39:03.380 ask in person and in their own home turf. I've had that happen to me. People will be like, hey,

00:39:09.080 send me an email. Brett, I'd like to talk to you about something. Can we meet X or can we get on

00:39:13.940 the phone X? They never say why. And like, I know, I understand like they're trying to do a power play

00:39:18.560 here. Like they're trying to like throw me off. So I just, I balance things out. Like, hey, you know

00:39:23.040 what? To best prepare for this, I'd like to know what it is we're going to talk about so I can

00:39:26.420 prepare for it and make it a productive conversation. Precisely. And that's, that's how I do it. And

00:39:30.460 oftentimes they, if they kind of are wishy-washy, it's like, well, I'm sorry, I can't do it. It's

00:39:35.400 going to be a waste of time. So yeah. Sorry. Yeah. So you mentioned this earlier about this

00:39:41.480 empowered. No, I think people might hear this idea of empowered. No, I think, well, I just got to say

00:39:44.260 no to all the things now that I don't want to do, but you have caveats about this. It's a nuanced

00:39:48.360 thing. Sometimes you got to say yes, even though you want to say no. So in the example of the boss

00:39:53.300 putting you in the spotlight because something has to get done. It's do or die. But you also

00:39:57.320 talk young people, when you're young and starting off in your life and your career, it often pays

00:40:02.160 more to say yes, because you're trying to gain experience and more, yeah, just more opportunities.

00:40:09.540 And then as you get older or progress in your career, then you need to start saying no more

00:40:13.680 because you got to start focusing on those things you are really good at. Yes, exactly. And so as you

00:40:20.480 said, rightly said, it is very nuanced and there's a time and place for everything. So when you're

00:40:26.720 starting out in your career and you are exploring, sometimes junior people have to go through the

00:40:34.500 motions to learn about what it takes to do all aspects of the job, even if you don't necessarily

00:40:41.780 like all aspects of the job. It's once you reach a slightly senior position that you actually have some

00:40:48.440 choices about what you'd like to focus on, that you have the choice. But very often when you're

00:40:55.820 young, you have to do everything. So if you think about the movie set, for example, you think about

00:41:01.300 Steven Spielberg, you know, he didn't reach there by not doing all the basic menial tasks that every

00:41:08.840 gopher has to do on a movie set. You do all of that. You learn a ton through that process. And then you

00:41:16.040 reach a point where, you know, you gain certain expertise in certain areas, you've got a position

00:41:23.340 where you can choose. These are the things I want to focus on and these are the things I'm not. So

00:41:28.560 it's really important that we allow ourselves to experience different things. And so the other aspect

00:41:37.380 is even for people who are more experienced, let's say you are looking to reinvent yourself.

00:41:42.480 When you're reinventing yourself, very often you have to explore different pathways. When you're in

00:41:49.380 exploration mode, thinking about what are all the different things I could do? That's when you say

00:41:54.840 yes to a lot of things. And then once you've had those experiences, and then you begin to focus,

00:42:01.860 okay, now I've experienced all these things. And I've decided I like this subset. And now you have to

00:42:08.440 learn to say no to the things that are distracting you from focusing on that subset. And so it is a

00:42:13.960 very nuanced issue. And one has to use prudence and judgment when deciding what to say yes to and what

00:42:20.340 to say no to, depending on the situation. And that's when it's useful to do some reflection and

00:42:26.240 maybe do some, maybe categorize those asks in the quadrant. I mean, that can be really useful.

00:42:31.480 Absolutely.

00:42:32.560 Well, Vanessa, this has been a fantastic conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book and

00:42:36.440 your work?

00:42:38.080 Thank you so much. I've enjoyed chatting with you too. Well, my website is probably a good first

00:42:43.500 stop. It's vanessapatrick.net. Happy to connect with listeners on LinkedIn. And you can follow me

00:42:50.460 on Instagram and Twitter as well.

00:42:52.580 Well, Dr. Vanessa Patrick, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:42:55.140 Thank you so much. This has been great fun. I've enjoyed it.

00:42:58.800 My guest today was Vanessa Patrick. She's the author of the book, The Power of Saying No.

00:43:02.720 It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find more information

00:43:06.040 about her work at our website, vanessapatrick.net. Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash

00:43:10.980 say no, where you can find links to resources where you delve deeper into this topic.

00:43:21.680 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. Make sure to check out our website

00:43:25.640 at artofmanless.com, where you can find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles

00:43:29.720 that we've written over the years about pretty much anything you think of. And if you haven't done

00:43:33.100 this already, I'd appreciate if you take one minute to give us a podcast or Spotify. It helps

00:43:36.660 that a lot. And if you've done that already, thank you. Please consider sharing the show

00:43:40.540 with a friend or family member who you think would get something out of it. As always, thank you for

00:43:44.660 the continued support. And until next time, it's Brett McKay reminding you to not listen to the

00:43:48.120 AOM podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

The Art of Manliness - July 26, 2023

Finally Learn to Say No

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