The Art of Manliness - Genius, Courage, and Betrayal in the Search for the Source of the Nile

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast in the 19th century

00:00:11.860 the source of the nile river remained one of the greatest mysteries of geographic exploration

00:00:15.840 the story of how the british eventually found it is one of adventure danger and bravery but also

00:00:20.460 of arrogance envy and resentment here to offer some snapshots from this dramatic expedition is

00:00:25.300 candace millard author of river of the gods genius courage and betrayal in the search for the source

00:00:30.520 of the nile today on the show candace shares how two men who are very much opposites richard francis

00:00:34.640 burton and john hanning speak venture together on two years-long expeditions to locate the source the

00:00:39.500 longest and most legendary river in the world the harrowing obstacles they faced in their quest and

00:00:43.660 how their partnership devolved into a bitter rivalry along the way we discuss what made burton such a

00:00:47.900 compelling character why remember his name but not speaks and the african guide who is the unheralded

00:00:52.680 hero and the achievements of both men after the show is over check out our show notes at awim.is

00:00:56.960 slash river

00:00:57.840 all right candace millard welcome back to the show thanks so much for having me so you got a new book

00:01:15.440 out called river of the gods it's all about the exploration for the source of the nile river

00:01:21.940 how did you discover this story and when did you realize there there might be a bigger story here

00:01:26.660 besides just geographic exploration i first heard this basic story about 20 years ago and i was just

00:01:33.140 fascinated by these two extremely different men and the story of their friendship and the betrayal of

00:01:38.860 that friendship and it stayed with me all these years i've been working at national geographic at that

00:01:43.960 time in the meantime written you know different books but i kept coming back to the story but

00:01:49.840 i didn't want to just tell another story about two europeans going into africa and quote-unquote

00:01:57.580 discovering something i wanted to really understand how these expeditions worked and why there was this

00:02:05.820 incredible fascination with this part of the world and when i was doing some research i found

00:02:10.660 city mubarak bombay who became the the heart and really the hero of the story and then i was hooked

00:02:17.920 yeah what i loved about this story is that there's stories within the story there's like lots of

00:02:22.580 stories and you explore them all it's sort of like a river right you find these little tributaries and

00:02:27.440 you you go off and you you see it gives you a bigger picture of what was going on yeah that's true and

00:02:32.540 that always happens with the best story so it takes me a lot of time a lot of research before i even

00:02:38.940 commit to writing a book on a on a certain subject and it has to have those many layers and this

00:02:44.880 certainly did okay so the the exploration for the source of the nile was going on like 1830s 1840s

00:02:52.140 1850s what was going on in europe at the time that kick-started it was like there was an obsession

00:02:58.680 like there was an obsession in discovering the source of the nile what what happened that's right so it

00:03:04.540 used to be that europeans were obsessed with rome and greece and they taught their children and the

00:03:11.100 priests and everyone was steeped in learning those languages and learning that history but then

00:03:15.420 at the very end of the 1700s and 1798 the french were in alexandria and they found the rosetta stone

00:03:25.060 and then the they were fighting with britain at that time britain wanted it britain all every european

00:03:31.800 country then was obsessed with this this even older and even richer civilization and so it just set

00:03:40.360 off this frenzy and art and architecture and fashion and everyone was fascinated with egypt as

00:03:46.620 really we still are today and so you can't have egypt without the nile right the longest most storied

00:03:53.300 river in the world and but but but people had been trying to find the source of the nile for thousands of

00:04:00.040 years you know ancient philosophers egyptian kings but they kept trying to find it by going by ascending

00:04:07.320 the river starting at the mediterranean sea and then going south but they quickly hit all these swamps

00:04:12.860 and things and they never got anywhere near so it was still this incredible mystery really one of the

00:04:18.920 greatest mysteries in the history of human exploration and so it's finally in the 1830s with

00:04:26.040 the royal geographical society getting involved they thought okay this is our moment we're going to try to

00:04:31.260 find it and was there like national pride at stake i mean we're like the french and the british

00:04:35.420 fighting each other on this absolutely absolutely everyone wanted they wanted the the the cultural

00:04:43.080 claim right they wanted they it was all about taking right taking effort taking the land taking the

00:04:49.700 history and the culture and you know then having the bragging rights to that and so so they were all

00:04:57.000 racing each other and so that was something that they were thinking about not only the dangers that

00:05:02.580 they would face and that and being able to solve this ancient mystery but also getting there first

00:05:07.980 okay so one of the individuals that played a big role in a european discovering the source of the nile

00:05:14.120 was richard francis burton this guy you couldn't make this guy up um tell us about his life before he

00:05:22.260 went on this expedition to start looking for the source of the nile like what was his life like what was

00:05:26.640 he's doing what was his personality like give kind of a thumbnail sketch of him yeah he was one of

00:05:31.940 these incredibly brilliant fascinating very deeply flawed characters so he was born in england but he

00:05:40.860 was always his whole life considered an outsider because he before he was a year old he moved to france

00:05:47.980 and his father moved him and his brother and sister from country to country he was in italy he was in

00:05:54.300 spain he was in greece and moving and moving each year he moved 13 times before he was 18 years old

00:06:00.140 and each point he would pick up the language and pick up the culture he was just a sponge but he also

00:06:06.560 grew up to be very an angry angry kid he was always fighting he was fighting at school he was fighting with

00:06:12.300 his tutors he was just fighting for his place in the world he felt like he really didn't fit in anywhere

00:06:17.500 but he again was brilliant i mean he he ended up writing dozens of books poetry essays translations

00:06:26.200 books about his travels he he ended up speaking more than 25 different languages plus another several

00:06:34.060 dialects he became the first englishman to enter mecca disguised as a muslim because his arabic was so 0.71

00:06:41.740 good and he knew the muslim religion so well he he could recite a quarter of the quran by heart but he

00:06:48.980 was one of these people who studied and was fascinated by every culture and every religion but respected

00:06:55.420 none yeah he was uh deeply not religious right and yeah but that was amazing like the story of him

00:07:02.240 sneaking into mecca was was crazy uh that he was able to do that as a european right right and you know

00:07:08.740 again again again he he was fascinated with islam and and studied a lot but obviously it's a forbidden 0.98

00:07:15.840 city for a reason and and he you know this this this trip was acknowledging that what was sort of most

00:07:22.320 sacred to this religion and completely disrespecting it but that was his mo i mean he was kind of a serial

00:07:29.560 and you know equal opportunity offender he just kind of didn't care and so that's really again one of the

00:07:36.880 things that made him an outsider he was also fascinated by sexual practices in every single

00:07:42.920 culture and he wrote about those as well which as you might imagine was very alarming to british victorians

00:07:49.040 so and and and another thing about him he you know britons would often say he doesn't even look british

00:07:55.320 you know he's got this black hair and these black mesmerizing eyes and even his teeth people wrote

00:08:02.060 about his teeth bram stoker who would go on to write dracula met burton before he wrote dracula and

00:08:09.160 was mesmerized by him he was just obsessed with him and and reading his descriptions are fascinating

00:08:14.920 and he even writes about watching burton as he's talking and looking at his teeth that gleamed like a

00:08:22.800 dagger so many people think he might have been an inspiration for dracula okay so when did burton

00:08:28.340 get the idea that he would start hunting for the source of the nile so after he um went to mecca he

00:08:34.920 he was always he always sort of fell into this depression after he had some great triumph so

00:08:41.060 unlike most people who who they just want to kind of coast on that afterglow right of some of some

00:08:47.420 great success burton always fell into a depression because he was happiest and most energized when he had

00:08:54.400 a challenge he needed something to really challenge him and again this was the heart and soul of

00:08:59.880 exploration this is the mystery everyone wanted to solve at that time so of course he thought

00:09:04.660 no one better than himself and he already had a relationship with the royal geographical society

00:09:09.740 they've been very interested in his trip to mecca and even though again he's this outsider and they

00:09:14.780 they kind of hold him at arm's length he obviously was the most experienced guy the the most obvious

00:09:21.720 choice to lead an expedition to search for the source of the nile okay so burton starts he gets

00:09:27.100 pointed for the job like you're going to be the guy so he starts putting together a team

00:09:30.640 it was sort of like it reminded me of uh uh what's the george clooney movie oceans 11 right he's trying

00:09:36.420 to wait it's a heist here right um and he he started picking these guys because he knew they were good at

00:09:41.100 these different things he ended up picking this one guy called john hanning speak that would end up being

00:09:47.560 a source of a lot of just trouble for the rest of his life how did this guy speak end up on burton's

00:09:52.680 team and then tell us about speak so burton had chosen three men he knew well and and really respected

00:10:00.360 they were highly skilled and and he trusted them and he liked them personally and so he went to

00:10:07.060 aidan which is right across he was going to begin in somaliland so he went to aidan where there was a

00:10:12.520 british outpost and was you know preparing and he was waiting for for one more man from his team

00:10:18.300 and the the boat that was supposed to bring that man instead brought news of the of his death and

00:10:24.260 burton's really devastated of somebody he really cared about and and he doesn't know he's like here

00:10:29.860 we're ready we've raised this money we've been given this incredible opportunity and we don't have

00:10:35.140 this other guy well john hanning speak was so he was burton's opposite in every way he was blonde

00:10:42.100 and blue-eyed he was born into the aristocracy he was a lieutenant in the british army he was in india

00:10:49.100 at that time he loved to hunt and so he was on leave from the army and he wanted to go to africa to

00:10:56.160 hunt he wanted to go into to somalia and when he got to aidan the the person in the british consul who

00:11:02.620 was there refused to let him go he said it's too dangerous but he kept trying and kept trying and

00:11:07.960 the guy said okay finally just leave me alone why don't you talk to burton maybe he'll let you go on

00:11:13.440 this expedition and he talked to burton speak did and burton had real hesitations you know first of all

00:11:20.820 he was concerned because speak didn't have any knowledge of the people in east africa their traditions

00:11:28.360 or language he didn't speak any language he spoke a little anglo hindustani but that was it and he

00:11:34.280 didn't seem to have any interest in it either he just wanted to hunt but burton felt sorry for him

00:11:40.920 you know he thought you know this guy is going to go and he's going to die he's going to be killed he's 0.83

00:11:45.420 not going to survive i'll give him a chance and so he said okay you can come with us let's just get

00:11:51.620 our bearings here this is about 18 what year is this 1850 yeah this is 1854 when they met 1854

00:11:58.340 speak he's also a young guy he's like in his 20s right that's right so he's about six years younger

00:12:04.400 than burton burton's in his 30s and and speaks in his 20s yeah and so burton he kind of said like i you

00:12:10.980 know i kind of i didn't want to have him on there but you said he's i felt sorry for him i'll let him

00:12:16.140 come along when did burton realize that speak was going to was going to be a liability for him

00:12:22.140 he didn't really realize for a long time you know burton's one of these people i think often in

00:12:28.600 history when you have somebody who's really extraordinarily i mean he's sort of genius level

00:12:34.660 extraordinarily smart extraordinarily skilled and accomplished he attracts envy that they're not

00:12:41.320 really aware of and that could be an extremely extremely dangerous thing because admiration can

00:12:47.300 quickly turn to envy can quickly turn to resentment can quickly turn to hate and that's what happened

00:12:53.120 here you know burton was kind of not paying attention to speak which speak hated more than anything you

00:12:58.740 know speak on the outside seems sort of modest and quiet but inside he really burned with this

00:13:05.580 ambition and he all along wanted to be the leader of the of the expedition not have have burton be the

00:13:12.960 leader he wanted to lead it he wanted the the glory and the accomplishment but burton was unaware of it he

00:13:19.820 was focused on this expedition and this and this challenge ahead of him and so it would take years and

00:13:27.260 many things along the way sort of built up offenses that he he didn't realize that he had caused

00:13:34.080 and speaks kind of keeping tally and it doesn't come out until much later so they the expedition

00:13:40.720 they it happened in phases so this first expedition they went on something happened that really really

00:13:46.760 started sowing the resentment with speak they've almost they almost both died tell us about this

00:13:52.080 experience i mean you do such a great job describing it but kind of give us a picture like what happened

00:13:56.760 in this this attack and then how did that sort of really sow the seeds for this resentment that speak

00:14:02.200 had against burton so they were going to begin in somalia and then set out into the interior of east

00:14:10.440 africa it was believed that there there might be some enormous sort of inland sea and so they started

00:14:17.540 in berber right on the coast and again you know these are people that this wider story is one of sort

00:14:25.620 of arrogance and ignorance these are people going into a land to again quote unquote discover something

00:14:31.360 where people have lived for a hundred thousand or more years right and millions of people and of

00:14:37.420 course these people are going to defend themselves so it's going to be dangerous and so one night they're

00:14:43.280 they're just in their tents they're sleeping and they are attacked by hundreds of somali and one of 0.68

00:14:50.300 the men is killed again one of one of burton's good friends speak is stabbed 11 times and burton has a

00:14:59.520 javelin thrust through his jaw from cheek to cheek which leaves this you know long jagged scar on his

00:15:07.360 face for the rest of his life but in the midst of this attack at one point speak starts to leave the

00:15:15.020 tent and then and then he steps back and burton just sort of carelessly says don't step back they'll

00:15:21.260 think you that you're retreating and but to to speak this is the worst thing anyone could say to him

00:15:26.880 because he thinks in his mind that burton is calling him a coward and that he takes great pride in being

00:15:33.040 incredibly tough incredibly brave and so he is furious but he doesn't say anything to burton and burton has

00:15:41.400 no idea i mean he's either all fighting for their for their lives and this ends the expedition and they

00:15:47.460 have to go back to england to regroup and again burton has no idea but but speak is is enraged and

00:15:56.660 he's he's holding this sort of in his heart against burton yeah so they go back to to london lick their

00:16:03.920 wounds and trying to figure out regroup and plan again yeah as you said during this time speak really

00:16:08.540 started nurturing his resentment towards burton he tried to change the story of what happened and kind of

00:16:13.700 saying yeah i was i was the guy burton he wasn't doing anything

00:16:18.820 right right he's saying you know he's talking about the orders that he gave and the decisions

00:16:25.300 that he made and and yeah this becomes a theme but again burton is completely unaware of it so

00:16:31.460 then the crimean war by that time is going on and they both go to take part to to a limited degree

00:16:38.000 in the crimean war and then burton decides i'm going to go back i'm going to go back

00:16:43.700 to east africa and the royal geographical society is going to fund another expedition for him and he

00:16:49.800 needs a second in command and against his best judgment even though again he is completely clueless

00:16:56.940 about how speak feels about him but he knows that they don't really get along that well and that speak

00:17:04.400 doesn't really have as many skills as he thinks he should but he says he he's like look he nearly died

00:17:10.280 the last time we all lost a lot of our our investment financial investment as well

00:17:16.000 um he felt bad about that so he said you know he invited him to come along and speak accepted

00:17:21.420 well during this interlude period burton had a romance this is another one of those cool little

00:17:27.220 stories that happened it is it was a romantic romance like capital r romantic with this woman named

00:17:34.380 isabel arendel tell us about the relationship and because this i thought this was really kind of it

00:17:39.480 really spoke to how like so that romantic period that people were experiencing in europe so tell us

00:17:45.520 about that relationship well you know it's interesting it seems like burton always attracted

00:17:50.660 to him people who are his complete opposite so isabel was as well um in a different way so isabel was

00:17:58.080 also born into the aristocracy but the she was catholic and so while burton had this sort of

00:18:04.200 nomads you know growing up he moving from place to place he was kind of on his own kind of raised

00:18:10.760 himself um she was born to this very very strict and controlling world where you know literally she

00:18:19.300 got to see her parents in the evening standing next to them to say good night you know it was nannies 1.00

00:18:25.240 and boarding schools and but and very controlled and her mother especially was extremely controlling 0.99

00:18:32.300 and wanted to choose who isabel would marry but isabel dreamed of a completely different life you know

00:18:41.000 she wanted adventure she wanted freedom which you just couldn't have as a victorian woman 1.00

00:18:47.660 and great britain and so she said that she wanted to be a man she said i wish i were a man but if i

00:18:56.300 can't be a man i want to be richard burton's wife so she she meets him when she's just 19 years old it's

00:19:03.700 her first trip outside of england and they meet in europe and she is immediately captivated by him he's

00:19:11.000 sort of everything she wishes she could be right he has this incredibly wild and adventurous life

00:19:17.260 and he looks dangerous and exciting and so she immediately falls in love with him but she's he's

00:19:24.880 10 years older than than she is and obviously swept up in this world in the in the in all of his own

00:19:31.900 personal ambitions and so they kind of meet again and again over over six years again and again

00:19:38.980 until finally he comes back and from africa and he proposes to her and it's everything she could

00:19:47.700 possibly dream of the only problem is her mother says absolutely not literally any man in the universe

00:19:55.260 but richard burton because he's such a controversial figure and he has no money and he has no family name

00:20:03.120 and so he's he is everything isabel wants and everything her mother does not no i loved isabel

00:20:09.620 i loved she was um she started she took fencing lessons and they're like why are you taking fencing

00:20:13.560 lessons like well i gotta know how to defend myself when i'm with richard on adventures i liked it a lot

00:20:18.960 and then what what drew burton to her you know i think well for one thing i mean i she was beautiful

00:20:25.040 she was young and she was willing to live this really crazy life that not many victorian women 1.00

00:20:33.300 would want you know i mean it was not an easy life and again he really didn't have any money he didn't

00:20:39.920 really have any obvious way to support them certainly not in the way that she had become accustomed to

00:20:45.620 but she was also completely obsessed with him you know she was absolutely devoted to him so what was

00:20:52.660 important to her was her religion and richard burton and she would do anything for him and so she

00:20:59.060 like you said she learned how to fence she she learned how to cook she learned how to edit because that he

00:21:06.860 wanted you know someone who could edit all of his manuscripts and things and she also became an

00:21:12.680 incredibly gifted writer she was really she brought she ended up writing some of her own books and she

00:21:18.560 and of course she wrote an autobiography or a i'm sorry a biography of of her husband which is

00:21:25.360 fascinating and beautifully written we're gonna take a quick break for your words from our sponsors

00:21:30.600 and now back to the show okay so uh he has this romance with with isabel he goes on the second

00:21:40.100 expedition to look for the source denial he brings along speak again unaware that speak is just just

00:21:46.220 harboring this resentment towards them tell us you mentioned a character that i i just i fell in

00:21:51.120 love with when i was reading about it bombay this bombay like came in clutch all the time during their

00:21:57.200 expeditions tell us about him so city mubarak bombay had been kidnapped as a child from his village in east

00:22:05.640 africa and dragged to the coast um taken to zanzibar where he'd been sold for cloth and the infamous slave

00:22:13.840 markets there and he had been taken to western india where he had lived enslaved for 20 years

00:22:21.520 until the man who owned him died and he was given his freedom and he made his way back to east africa

00:22:28.320 and he met burton and speak there so when burton and speak go it's now 1856 they're on their expedition

00:22:36.120 they're going to try again and they meet they're they're hiring porters and guides and things and they

00:22:42.720 meet city mubarak bombay and it's really interesting to me because both men immediately knew if they

00:22:49.500 didn't hire anyone else they had to hire bombay and you know he he spoke many languages he was incredibly

00:22:57.280 hard-working incredibly trustworthy he was very cheerful and all everything that he did but what's most

00:23:06.100 astonishing to me is that even after everything that he had endured all the loss all the this

00:23:13.240 unbelievable tragedy that he had survived he had the softest of hearts you know he was incredibly kind

00:23:21.720 incredibly generous and that is obvious you know it was obvious to these men the moment they met him

00:23:29.520 and this ended up being true and in expedition after expedition after expedition he would spend his life

00:23:35.440 helping to map his part of the world and yeah he he quickly became the heart and really the hero of

00:23:43.680 this expedition yeah one of the problems that burton had and speak had is like sometimes the porters

00:23:49.680 just abandoned they just like in the middle leave but bombay never did and also bombay did a great job

00:23:55.380 of sort of i guess managing the relationships between the porters and burton and speak yeah he did and and

00:24:02.540 look it's understandable why these men would desert the expedition you know is so they were you know

00:24:09.680 incredible burton and speak nearly died multiple times and it was never clear like how how they were

00:24:16.300 going to pay their porters and they never had enough porters they never had enough donkeys and the

00:24:22.260 donkeys were always running off too or dying and they had so much equipment and they you know people have

00:24:28.980 to understand i mean this these are vast expanses that they're crossing so they would spend years

00:24:35.220 there and they would cross thousands of miles and it was incredibly varied terrain and they were you know

00:24:43.160 at one point burton has such severe malaria he was paralyzed he could not walk for nearly a year

00:24:50.160 and so they had to carry him with with everything else too both men and many of the and and sometimes

00:24:57.220 bombay and some of the other people they often would be blinded they would get infections and

00:25:01.840 things were for months they they couldn't see what they're trying to go through so it's it's and again

00:25:08.020 they're going through land that no one has invited them into and it's potentially dangerous people don't

00:25:15.260 know i mean it could be immediately dangerous and it certainly was in the long term very very dangerous

00:25:19.900 for these people on this land so um it's a difficult difficult expedition and so it's no wonder people left

00:25:28.240 right yeah that's the when i read it's like this sounds awful i don't know why anyone would want to

00:25:32.400 go explore in the 19th century i mean as you said like most of the time they were just like they were

00:25:37.380 sick pretty much all both burton like everyone was sick burton went paralyzed uh speak lost his vision

00:25:43.000 he also lost his hearing he got a bug stuck in his ear right right yeah that was a horrible it was just

00:25:50.060 one of these crazy things where he's one night there's a huge storm and it blows down his tent

00:25:57.200 and so and it's pitch black so he lights a candle to try to set his tent back up but it tracks this

00:26:03.300 horde of beetles all these beetles descend on him and fill the tent and he's flailing around trying to get

00:26:10.560 rid of them and he can't and so he finally gives gives up and he lies down to just try to sleep

00:26:16.500 and he feels one of the beetles climbing into his ear and he can't get it out and it just keeps

00:26:22.680 burrowing deeper and deeper and deeper and you know he tries everything he can think of he tries like

00:26:27.980 butter and oil and nothing is working and so finally out of desperation he takes a pen knife

00:26:35.040 and he jabs it into his ear and he he kills the beetle and like for weeks after bits of the beetle

00:26:43.520 like a wing or a leg you know comes out in his in his earwax but unfortunately he also deafens himself

00:26:50.400 in that ear for the rest of his life okay so they're on this exploration they finally arrive to

00:26:56.260 this large lake it's lake tell me how it's pronunciation tanganica yes tanganica tanganica

00:27:02.600 um and burton thought hey this is it this could i think this is the source of the nile but he

00:27:07.460 discovered it wasn't when did he figure out that this wasn't the source well not for a while i mean

00:27:12.280 he still held on hope for a long time so the lake tanganica is one of the largest and deepest lakes in

00:27:20.760 the world it's absolutely enormous i was i was on this lake when i did research for this book and

00:27:26.380 you feel like you're an on an ocean it's just it's it's it's really it's it's sort of narrow and very

00:27:34.340 very long and i was on it one night when there had been a big storm and the water was incredibly rough

00:27:41.880 and we were just in an open wooden boat you know and we were tipping like insane like almost

00:27:49.060 completely tipping over many many times and it's also filled with crocodiles so i was

00:27:54.020 terrified but it did seem like this and it's in the right area you know it's it's it's in

00:27:59.900 what is today um western tanzania and as a side note it's also the the site of gombe which is jane

00:28:07.240 goodall's research institute there on the lake but um but so the problem is they got there they didn't

00:28:14.220 have boats they are trying to find um boats that they could um rent or borrow and they were they're

00:28:20.360 sicker and sicker and they're running out of supplies and finally they just realized they can't stay

00:28:25.540 any longer they they they have to start back for the coast but they haven't had a chance to

00:28:31.520 circumnavigate it they haven't chance to do run all the scientific tests that they need to run and

00:28:37.140 they haven't seen they haven't you know gotten to they think it's going to be in the northern reaches

00:28:41.960 and they haven't been able to really get there to see if you know a nile-sized river is running out

00:28:47.660 well at this point too speak decided you know burton was sick he kind of need to hold up for a little

00:28:53.080 bit and recover so speak said hey i'm going to go split off and go check something else out

00:28:56.980 why did speak decide to do that so at first as i said they had thought that there was was one enormous

00:29:04.720 lake in the middle of east africa but when they get there and they start talking to people who

00:29:09.920 live there and they find out actually there are three enormous lakes and they talk to a guy who's

00:29:16.700 like you know if you really want to see a big lake you should go north and that is the nyanza and so

00:29:24.380 speak really wants to do that but burton again is still he he at this point he's still paralyzed he's

00:29:30.460 really ill he thinks they don't have enough supplies for it and he says let's just wait we'll get back to

00:29:36.680 the coast we'll regroup and then we'll and then we'll try and speak says you know what when we're

00:29:42.600 in they're in um kaze which is now tabora which was this big sort of trading post he says while

00:29:48.260 we're here why don't you recover work on things you know they're all everything was falling apart

00:29:53.240 like their clothes were in shreds everything's falling apart at this point it's like why don't

00:29:56.840 you work on that and i'll take bombay because he didn't want to go anywhere without bombay

00:30:00.720 and a smaller legion and i'll see if i can go to this this nyanza and burton is kind of annoyed

00:30:08.180 with him at this point anyway and he's like great why don't you do that but it was it would turn out

00:30:13.560 to be the worst mistake of his life because speak did go to the nyanza and the nyanza is the source

00:30:20.360 of the white nile but the thing is okay speak was convinced that what was it but he really didn't know

00:30:26.140 no no he was only there for a couple of days he didn't get anywhere near the north he was in the

00:30:32.740 southern part and it i mean this this this lake it's the it's the largest lake in africa it's the

00:30:39.320 second largest freshwater lake in the world it's absolutely mind-bendingly enormous and he wasn't

00:30:46.180 anywhere near the northern reaches which is where the nile comes out of it but he just said he had a

00:30:51.140 feeling he just knew that this was a source and so part of it is gumption you know he did go part of

00:30:58.320 it is just luck it just turned out that he was right but he he had absolutely no proof it's okay

00:31:04.440 they so speaks like yeah i found it uh burton's like i don't know maybe you don't have any proof about it

00:31:10.360 they go home and then speak started doing these maneuvers to make sure that he got sole credit for

00:31:16.420 discovering the source of denial like what did what what did he do that's right so they get back

00:31:21.700 to zanzibar and speak is really really eager to get back to england and burton's still recovering

00:31:28.480 and speak says okay don't worry i'll go on without you i'll go back to london but don't worry i won't

00:31:35.820 talk to anybody until you can join me and so burton says okay great i'll meet you there as soon as i

00:31:41.540 can well speak decides instead as soon as he gets to london like the very next day he goes to see

00:31:49.400 the head the president of the royal geographical society and he tells him that he believes he's

00:31:55.080 found the source of the nile and this guy believes him and really likes speak again speak is sort of

00:32:01.980 and this he doesn't have any children murchison is his name and he sort of looks on speak very

00:32:07.860 affectionately and is really impressed with what he's done and he says we have to send you back

00:32:13.420 as commander of your own expedition which is everything that speak has always wanted so burton

00:32:19.600 gets back a few weeks later and is like completely bewildered and shocked by what has happened you know

00:32:27.540 he he realizes that oh speak is not my friend i'm not his mentor he's my rival he just had he just it

00:32:36.900 hadn't even occurred to him but now everything's been taken away so so speak is going to be given

00:32:43.780 the next expedition and burton doesn't have one so so he doesn't have any way to go back and try to

00:32:51.340 try to discover the source of the nile something he had been trying with everything he had to do for

00:32:57.380 years and during this time burton's reputation just kind of plummeted like he no one wanted anything

00:33:03.900 to do with him that's right so he was just he just kind of spun deeper and deeper into he as he sort

00:33:10.900 of then realizes how speak feels about him and and then yeah he the rural geographical society kind of

00:33:19.000 drops him he's just an outcast and he's bitter and he's angry and sort of and again he's at his best

00:33:27.340 when he has a challenge when he has something he wants to solve or wants to accomplish something big

00:33:33.720 and he had and that had been taken away from him all right so speak goes back to lake uh what was the

00:33:39.940 name the nancy the nyanza nyanza he names it lake victoria that's what it's we know it now uh how did

00:33:46.000 that expedition go without burton so it was you know beck had always been criticizing burton first just

00:33:53.320 sort of to himself and then to you know his family members and then sort of to a wider array of people

00:34:00.200 criticizing burton at every point and criticizing his leadership skills now speak finds that he's in

00:34:07.240 charge and he has to make all these very difficult decisions and the same things happen to him they

00:34:13.240 they get there so the first person he knows he has to have with him is bombay and bombay is absolutely

00:34:19.220 willing and ready to go and then he takes a man named james grant and james grant is just again

00:34:27.640 it's a story of complete opposites he speaks complete opposites so he he's a really good guy

00:34:33.260 very genuinely modest happy for speak to have the limelight and just kind of waiting um to to help

00:34:42.060 however he could but again quickly they go in there are desertions they're starving but they

00:34:49.900 are able to make it to the northern reaches of the nyanza and again they don't really have the proof

00:34:56.000 that they need they don't aren't able to spend enough time they they don't have all the scientific

00:35:01.300 measurements but speak is even more than ever convinced that this is the source okay so he's

00:35:08.360 convinced and he's building up his brand basically in england like i'm the guy who discovered the

00:35:13.800 source of the nile and a lot most of the scientists and the researchers they they bought into like yeah

00:35:18.300 this guy did it but then there came a point when they started to realize that speak was all hat and

00:35:24.400 no cattle what happened like what what sounded what kind of led to his downfall when people started

00:35:29.760 to realize this guy isn't really what he says he is well he just became he's sort of more and more

00:35:36.260 romantic so first of all he gets back and the royal geographical society you know had been founded

00:35:41.980 in 1830 it was was the you know most respected most powerful scientific institution in great britain and

00:35:50.200 they had this vaunted journal where they would publish the the reports of the men that they would send on

00:35:58.200 these expeditions and burton had had taken up a whole issue after after their last expedition

00:36:04.120 but speak a he hates to write and b he really wants as much attention as he can get so instead of giving

00:36:12.500 all of his information to the royal geographical society which had sponsored him which had sent him

00:36:17.340 there he decides he's going to publish it with blackwoods magazine which was a very well-known

00:36:23.440 magazine at that time because he thinks he'll get more readership and and more money and more attention

00:36:28.020 that way and so the royal geographical society is outraged and he gives them just sort of a poorly

00:36:34.800 written poorly researched um small report and so he's he's broken ties that way he also is very

00:36:41.660 critical of everyone there was some there's a poor guy named petherick who had agreed to try to help

00:36:47.860 resupply um speaking grants expedition and he had gone through hell and back he had lost two men on the

00:36:54.840 trip he and his wife was with him had nearly died and when he meets up with speak speaks angry that he

00:37:00.960 wasn't there earlier and is is telling people that oh yeah i think he's involved in the slave trade which

00:37:07.620 which he was not at all so he ruins his reputation and so people are starting to say what you know who is

00:37:15.280 this guy and um and what does he want you know we he's sort of dangerous and so he also is kind of cast

00:37:23.580 out so he and burton are are just on their own yeah the the writing sample that speak gave you

00:37:30.320 you you quoted in the book it didn't make any sense at all like i read it like three times this is like

00:37:36.500 my my eight-year-old could write better than this i know i know and and one of these strange twists of

00:37:42.240 fate that happens in history sometimes so so out of desperation blackwood this publisher he's like he

00:37:48.720 he's like speak has this great story to tell but he can't write it he just can't write it to

00:37:52.820 to save himself so they decide to hire a quote-unquote editor who's really a ghost writer for speak

00:37:59.280 to work with and as luck would have it the guy's last name was burton

00:38:03.340 but yeah i think it's a great example i mean it speaks like he had this vain ambition

00:38:09.080 but his envy and resentment eventually led to his downfall

00:38:13.700 yeah it did you know he as often happens i think when people are very arrogant they are very also

00:38:22.720 very insecure and he couldn't take any criticism he just wanted to be lauded all the time and yeah that

00:38:31.820 that it turns into this sort of festering resentment against everyone and you find yourself sort of cut

00:38:39.500 off okay so speak he he's technically discovered the source of the nile but he pretty much lucked

00:38:45.820 into it he's also at this time he's alienating the exploration community with how he's conducting

00:38:51.180 himself and you know meanwhile you also have burton who's on the outs in that community he still

00:38:58.220 believes lake tangania is the source of the nile so he and speak decide to argue this out in a public

00:39:06.040 debate but speak unexpectedly dies uh before the debate and it's a really it's a really dramatic

00:39:13.740 mysterious twist in the story and uh we're gonna we'll save that for readers of your books if you

00:39:19.680 want to know what happens there get the book but what's interesting about speaks posthumous legacy

00:39:25.220 is even though you know speak is the first european to discover the source of the nile

00:39:30.980 i had never heard of speak until i read your book but i did know who burton was so why does history

00:39:39.500 remember burton but overlook speak i think um well part of it is you know speak died then soon after

00:39:48.440 and and he just wasn't the personality that burton was you know i wrote a book about theodore roosevelt

00:39:55.300 and i always found it interesting you know roosevelt used to say himself if you don't have the great

00:40:00.200 event you don't have the great leader so he really wanted to be president during a war or like you

00:40:07.060 know the great depression or some big event where he could galvanize the nation and he didn't have that

00:40:12.960 but yet we remember him i mean he's one of the most well-known presidents in our nation's history

00:40:19.420 why i think because of his personality and it was the same with burton he was just absolutely

00:40:26.480 fascinating you know he he he was just this i mean you love to talk about him right he was

00:40:32.900 off the charts brilliant and he also he wrote so much we have all of his writings he was an

00:40:39.460 unbelievably gifted writer he spoke all of these languages he did all these other things and so he

00:40:46.900 is very memorable so yes you're right there there are dozens of biographies about richard burton

00:40:54.000 there's only one biography of speak and it was written i think in the 70s the 1970s so almost 100

00:41:03.060 years after his death and it's a really very slim biography we don't we don't know that much about

00:41:09.700 um his childhood or anything so there's just there's not that much to say about him

00:41:15.140 yes he's all hat no cattle yeah yeah and after this bombay had a after these expeditions he had a

00:41:22.440 good he did a lot of expeditions and exploring and map making correct yes you know it's incredible

00:41:27.800 it's again it's one of these things you think i can't believe i've never heard of i mean again i

00:41:32.020 worked at national geographic for six years we talked every day about exploration and about africa

00:41:38.240 i had never heard of city mubarak bombay so city mubarak bombay not only was he with burton and

00:41:44.320 speak going to the tanganyika and then with speak going to the nyanza he was with speak and grant when

00:41:49.780 speak came back to go to the nyanza again he was with henry morton stanley when he found david

00:41:56.460 livingston which was on the banks of the tanganyika and that you know the famous dr livingston i presume

00:42:02.880 bombay was there bombay helped make that happen and then he along with the explorer vernie levitt

00:42:09.980 cameron became the first to cross the entire continent from east to west sea to sea so he i

00:42:16.560 mean he it would be difficult to argue that anyone did more for the mapping of east africa

00:42:24.260 the continent of his birth then city mubarak bombay but very few people have heard his name

00:42:30.380 well candace this has been a great conversation where can people go to learn more about the book

00:42:34.580 which i think i told you earlier before this is the best book i've read so far this year

00:42:38.080 thank you so much it really means a lot to me so it's available everywhere where books are sold

00:42:43.260 and i do have a website candacemillard.com and i'm on you know twitter and instagram and all those

00:42:50.000 things so but i really really appreciate i i really enjoy the conversation thank you so much for

00:42:54.780 your interest in the book thanks candace it's been a pleasure my guest today was candace millard her new

00:42:59.800 book is river of the gods genius courage and betrayal in the search for the source of the

00:43:03.920 nile it's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere you can find more information about

00:43:07.360 our work at our website candacemillard.com also check out our show notes at aom.is slash river

00:43:12.440 where you can find links to resources where we delve deeper into this topic

00:43:15.180 well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast make sure to check out our website at

00:43:26.180 art of manless.com where you can find our podcast archives as well as thousands of articles written

00:43:30.020 over the years about pretty much anything you'd think of and if you'd like to enjoy ad free episodes

00:43:33.640 of the aom podcast you can do so on stitcher premium head over to stitcher premium.com sign

00:43:37.440 up use code manless at checkout for a free month trial once you're signed up download the stitcher

00:43:41.280 app on android ios and you can start enjoying ad free episodes of the aom podcast and if you haven't

00:43:45.420 done so already i'd appreciate if you take one minute to give us review an apple podcast or

00:43:48.480 spotify it helps that a lot if you've done that already thank you please consider sharing the show

00:43:52.480 with a friend or family member who would think we get something out of it as always thank you for

00:43:55.820 the continued support until next time's brett mckay remind you not to listen to the aom podcast but put

00:43:59.780 what you've heard into action

The Art of Manliness - May 23, 2022

Genius, Courage, and Betrayal in the Search for the Source of the Nile

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript