00:04:36.260And so I thought, oh, it's really helpful to have those different definitions.
00:04:40.040And then at the same time, it just started to make me think about, you know, all the envy in the world. And I looked at my clients, and I could see that there was a persistent problem where here are these conscientious high achievers, and they're already successful. And yet they still feel behind. And why was that happening?
00:05:03.760And a lot of them were feeling stuck, whether it was like trying to balance their work and family, or sometimes it was like, why am I not getting promoted?
00:05:12.800Or, you know, younger professionals, like, why can't I find somebody like a partner in life?
00:05:18.640And, you know, there were just different questions and they were feeling stuck and they were feeling really bad about themselves and feeling behind.
00:05:56.100They could see what was happening in their friends' private lives and, you know, people
00:06:00.880they admire, you know, it was just too much information.
00:06:04.120So all of that was happening at the same time.
00:06:07.000And I think it was when I was thinking about my own adolescence, I thought about, wow,
00:06:12.460growing up in Korea, it was very different.
00:06:14.720And how Koreans view Envy was also very different.
00:06:18.520So I just really started looking at Envy, looking at the existing research on Envy.
00:06:23.840And, and what I found was just so fascinating. And I also found it so helpful. You know,
00:06:30.420that's what started the project. Okay. So let's talk about what envy is exactly,
00:06:36.320because it's a word we throw around a lot. And as you mentioned earlier, we often use the word
00:06:42.200envy and jealousy interchangeably, and we can talk about how they're not the same thing.
00:06:46.880But I think people know what envy feels like. It feels bad. And they typically feel it whenever
00:06:53.380they're comparing themselves. So talking about your kids comparing themselves to other kids or
00:06:58.740your clients feeling behind because maybe they're looking at how other people in their field are
00:07:03.180doing. So I think there's some elements there, but let's make it very discreet. Like how do
00:07:08.040philosophers, theologians, and psychologists define envy? Yeah, I try to use a very simple
00:07:16.900definition because I think that different philosophers and different psychologists will
00:07:22.040have longer versions. And I just see envy as wanting something that someone else has. And
00:07:29.740that usually doesn't feel good. And psychologists, you know, they've debated about the definition a
00:07:36.440lot. But I think generally, it's accepted that there are two types of envy. There's benign envy,
00:07:42.600and then there is malicious envy. And I think theologians will look at envy, pride, and maybe
00:07:51.940greed or covetedness and see those as sin, right? So there's lots of different ways of looking at
00:07:58.500it. But I think what is really helpful is to understand that there's a good envy and there's
00:08:04.220a bad envy. And the good envy, the benign envy, it's a negative feeling still, but it makes you
00:08:09.480feel like, oh, well, I should go after what it is that I want. It's more emulative. It's more
00:08:16.320motivating. And then more malicious envy is more like, Oh, I don't, you know, I don't want that
00:08:22.520person to have what, what I want, you know, it's more focused on the person that you could look at
00:08:30.460your envy target, the person that has what you want, or you can look at the good, what it is
00:08:35.940that they have that you want. And so when you're more preoccupied with the person, then it's more
00:08:42.940likely to be malicious envy. And when you're more focused on maybe obtaining what it is that you
00:08:49.820want, then it's more benign envy. Okay. All right. So envy is feeling bad about not having something
00:08:57.240that someone else has. Yes. Kind of basic. And I like that idea that there's different types of
00:09:01.020envy, benign and malicious envy. So benign envy is whenever you're focused on the object that that
00:09:06.900person has. Right. And you're trying to figure out how you can get it in a legal way. You're
00:09:12.180not trying to like steal it from the person. Exactly. What can I do to make myself into that
00:09:17.380type of person who'd have that thing? And then malicious envy is like, your focus is on the
00:09:21.940person that you envy, not the thing they have. And you're like, man, what do I got to do to bring
00:09:26.640this person down a notch? Exactly. Yeah. So if you can understand why people have a bad connotation
00:09:34.380of envy, because we usually think of the malicious kind. We don't often think of the benign kind.
00:09:41.220Yeah. Well, how does malicious envy show up in like regular everyday life, you think?
00:09:46.420You know, I think it comes up when we gossip, you know, I actually don't think that people will actually do something to harm someone, but we might, you know, talk bad about a person, we might try to kind of bring down the persons in some way or lift ourselves up in a way and say, well, you know, that person might be, you know, wealthy and have lots of stuff, but all that stuff is making that person a rotten person, right?
00:10:15.260And I'm not that way. I'm more concerned about like, you know, this. And that is still malicious envy. It's not really harming that other person, but it's focusing more on that person. But you can also think, oh, well, I can't get that thing that that other person has. And so you might not do anything about it. And you might just, you know, feel bad about yourself for not, for example, getting a promotion.
00:10:39.060And I think Sarah Protazzi, a philosopher that I really admire, you know, she talks about inert envy. And I think that's what happens a lot with my clients. Like, for example, if somebody got a promotion and they didn't really think that the person who got the promotion deserved it, and then, you know, there's only one promotion and now that that person has it, I can't have it.
00:11:02.960And so they might not do anything negative towards that person, but they might sit and kind of what, you know, she describes as sulking, just not doing anything, feeling bad about themselves, you know, going inward.
00:11:16.260And that also has like a negative impact because you believe that you can't get what you want.
00:11:23.520Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people have experienced that if they scrolled social media, that sort of inert envy.
00:14:26.740So I think we did a good job of kind of defining what envy is.
00:14:29.460So you feel bad because you want something that someone else has.
00:14:33.280And I think it's an important note to make. Envy is different from admiration, right? You can admire someone and you're not envying them because like you don't feel bad that they have the thing that you don't have. Like I experienced admiration the other day. I went to my son's cross country meet and there's this kid. He's one of the best runners in the nation. And he was just lapping kids. And I was just watching this kid run. And I admired this kid. I was like, this is amazing.
00:14:59.480I didn't envy him at all because like, I don't want to run a 5K really fast, but I admired him.
00:15:05.800Right. Yeah. I mean, I think that that admiration is also what some researchers have found is not
00:15:14.320as motivating as the 9NV, right? Because you're not going to go out and start running 5Ks or
00:15:20.480whatever race he was in. You just feel that admiration. I admire, I used to watch a lot
00:15:26.500of basketball. And I lived in Chicago when Michael Jordan was playing and, you know, I would admire
00:15:31.720him, but I had no desire to learn how to play basketball, you know? And so, yeah, there was no
00:15:37.680motivation there, but envy, benign envy can be very motivating. Yeah. So yeah, if you don't want
00:15:43.660the thing that someone has, like you can't experience envy because you're not going to be,
00:15:47.200okay. So you developed this acronym to help your clients explore their envy when it pops up in
00:15:54.580their lives. It's SIREN. Can you walk us through this acronym? Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, in order to
00:16:01.340kind of examine your envy, I'm asking people to look at the four different components of envy.
00:16:07.220And so there's four, there's S is similar target. I is intangible desire. R is relevant comparison
00:16:15.840and N is negative emotion. So if we go through them, you know, S similar target is that we tend
00:16:25.320to envy people who are closer to us or something that's within reach, not somebody who's so far
00:16:32.860ahead of us or so high above us, right? So, you know, I use the example of like a young cellist
00:16:40.380might admire Yo-Yo Ma, but they're not going to be envious of Yo-Yo Ma because Yo-Yo Ma is just
00:16:46.200way up there. But that young cellist is going to be envious of their first chair in the youth
00:16:52.580orchestra, especially if she's second chair. So similar target shows us that, you know what,
00:16:58.460we tend to envy something that's kind of within our reach. I, intangible desire, I think that's
00:17:04.860probably the most important part. You know, we talked a lot about like how we want something
00:17:10.040when it comes to envy. But what I ask people to do is look at what's behind that desire,
00:17:17.400what's underneath that desire. So what's the intangible feeling that we think that we're
00:17:23.760going to get when we get that thing that we want? So for example, wanting a promotion. Well,
00:17:30.100why do we want that promotion? Do we want it because it's going to give us job security?
00:17:34.860It's going to make us feel more financially secure.
00:17:38.460Or maybe we want that promotion because we really want to mentor other people.
00:17:44.120And that's something that we find so rewarding.
00:17:47.200And that promotion would give you that opportunity to do that.
00:17:51.100So look underneath what it is that we desire.
00:17:54.460Money, for example, you know, it's never that we want these papers and coins or the, you know, the dollar signs.
00:18:00.900what we really want is what money will will bring to us so taking some time to like examine what
00:18:08.180what is that intangible desire relevant comparison I mean I think you and I talked about it a little
00:18:14.060bit like I have no interest in basketball so I'm not going to feel envious of basketball players
00:18:18.680you know I really love to knit and so when I see somebody else's beautifully knit sweater I'm going
00:18:24.800to feel some pangs of envy, right? So it shows us the domain or the area in which we're interested
00:18:31.840in. For example, back to the young cellist, she's not going to envy her friend who is a tennis
00:18:37.120player. She doesn't play tennis, but she's going to envy her first chair because they're both
00:18:43.360cellists in the same youth orchestra. And then finally, negative emotion. We've talked about
00:18:49.000that a lot. Envy makes us feel bad. But like any other negative emotion, it has signaling
00:18:54.540value. And signaling value tells us that there's something important to pay attention to. And
00:19:00.520that's why I use the acronym SIREN. It's telling us, hey, pay attention to me. There's something1.00
00:19:05.520important here. I want you to look at this. So that negative emotion is asking us to please
00:19:11.180pay attention. And I also use it as a gauge. The more envious I feel, the more I can't shake off
00:19:18.960that feeling of envy, the more it stays with me, then I know, okay, well, this is something
00:19:24.680really important to me. This is something I really should pay attention to. Whereas other fleeting
00:19:30.100envy, you know, maybe, you know, you can just brush it off. Yeah. Well, I think this is the
00:19:34.380interesting thing you do with this book is that, you know, typically we think of envy as a negative
00:19:38.920emotion, a bad emotion. We shouldn't feel it. You're taking the approach like, yeah, it doesn't
00:19:43.340feel good, but it's an emotion that can tell you something about yourself that's important to you.
00:19:47.920And so you can listen to it and we'll talk about how you can turn envy this typical negative emotion to something positive because that's what the whole book's about. It's really interesting. But I love this acronym. I think it does a really good job of unpacking envy. I love that idea of similar target.
00:20:02.840i don't envy for example jeff bezos like the richest guy in the world because he's just so
00:20:08.760out there like i can't even like i'm not even in his league in terms of money or whatever but like
00:20:13.320i'm envious like i'm looking at the guy down the street from me it's like oh man they did this to
00:20:17.080their house i should do that to my house too yeah yeah and yeah like you said i'm not i'm not i
00:20:22.780wasn't envious of that kid who was running really fast but you know i like to barbell train so if i
00:20:27.840see a guy that's doing a little bit better with his deadlift, I'm like, oh, why am I not doing as
00:20:33.640well with my deadlift? I need to do something here. So I think it's a really useful framework.
00:20:37.820And anytime you experience the feeling of envy, walk through it. And I thought this idea of
00:20:42.820intangible desire was really good because it forces you to dig deeper into what you really
00:20:48.100want. And I think a lot of times, you talk about this in the book, we don't actually want the
00:20:52.460thing is the thing behind the thing. And it's oftentimes status or reputation or prestige or
00:20:58.560standing or security and figuring out like, okay, that's what I actually want. I actually want a
00:21:05.140sense of standing, a sense of being important. Well, there's other ways to feel, have that
00:21:11.180feeling without getting that thing that's eliciting the envy. Yes. So yeah, we'll dig
00:21:17.220deeper into this. What's interesting about you, you mentioned earlier, you are Korean American,
00:21:21.240you grew up in Korea, and you bring your experience growing up in Korea to this book
00:21:29.260to show how envy can show up differently in different cultures. So talk about the role
00:21:34.880culture can play and how we experience envy. What does envy look like in the United States,
00:21:39.480and how does it compare to how envy is experienced and expressed in Korea?
00:21:44.820Yeah, I was born in Korea, brought here as a baby. Then I went back when I was 10,
00:21:49.620and then I came back like my senior year of high school. So I went back and forth. And I think that
00:21:54.460gave me an interesting perspective. You know, there are definitely gaps in my cultural knowledge,
00:22:00.780but it also gave me the opportunity to be an insider or an outsider on the inside and look at
00:22:07.500the two different cultures. And definitely, like when I look back and think about it, you know,
00:22:13.240Here in the U.S., it's considered a deadly sin. You are only really focused on the malicious envy. People don't really know about the benign envy. Whereas in Korea, people will talk about their envy, and usually it's talking about their benign envy.
00:22:31.480So there's this word 부러워요 or 부럽다. And people will actually say those words to the0.97
00:22:39.240person that they're envious of. And the reason why they can do it is because it's a combination of,
00:22:45.780you know, I envy you. I wish I could be like you. I admire you. It's all rolled into one.
00:22:51.820And I think that here in the US, since we're only thinking about the sinful envy, the deadly sin,
00:22:58.260then we're more likely to be more negative about it. And we don't want to admit feeling it.
00:23:05.680And since we associate it with sin, there's also some shame around it. And, you know, shame keeps
00:23:12.620us stuck. And so that's, I think, how a lot of Americans experience it. They will deny it or
00:23:19.200suppress it. They'll say, I don't feel envy or I'm not an envious person, but it's a universal
00:23:25.000emotional emotion. So I think, you know, it's not a bad idea to look at it. As I said, it has
00:23:30.400value to it. Yeah. I thought it was interesting how people would just admit that they're envious
00:23:34.880in Korea, you know, like parents would be talking, you know, as parents do, and they're catching up
00:23:40.020on what kids are doing. And one parent will say, Oh, my kid's a doctor. And the other parent will
00:23:44.720say, Oh, I envy you. Yeah, that would not happen in America. No, no. You know, it's really
00:23:50.340interesting, because I think that, you know, I was talking to Daniel Tudor, who wrote a really
00:23:54.720good book on Korea. And it covers Korean culture, Korean history, all different kinds of things.
00:24:00.720He was British, and then he ended up traveling to Korea and then staying there. And I think he's
00:24:06.340now married and has kids in Korea. And he reminded me how when I moved back to Korea in the late
00:24:13.860seventies, it was a really impoverished country and people were really trying to move up in the
00:24:20.780world. They openly talked about how, oh, Korea needs to no longer be considered a third world
00:24:26.660country. We need to become like an advanced country. And so everyone was poor or everyone
00:24:32.960was kind of flattened in a way. And at the same time, everyone was striving. And because your
00:24:38.440culture, it was okay to compare openly. You know, people would say, oh, you did this so well,
00:24:45.440you know, congratulations. So it's open comparisons, plus everyone's striving,
00:24:51.140everyone's trying to do better. And so there's a lot of, I think, when you say it opens up a
00:24:58.040conversation that allows you to talk about, okay, well, how I did it or how I got there.
00:25:05.460The other kind of cultural thing that goes on in Korea is that, you know, you do want to succeed, but at the same time, you don't want to stick out. You know, there's this notion of collectivism. You are an individual, yes, but you are part of a group and that group membership is very, very important.
00:25:23.400So when people do well, it's often to bring more glory to the group, like an Olympic skater
00:25:29.740will bring more glory to Korea, and therefore it's okay for her to be outstanding.
00:25:35.740And so when you have this envy expression told to you, like if somebody says to you,
00:25:41.100you feel a little uncomfortable as the recipient of that envy, and you say, no, no, no,
00:25:50.440And so that pura oyo opens up a conversation between people. And that culture also has you
00:25:58.380wanting to help the person that envies you. You don't want to stick out. And so culturally,
00:26:04.880like when you get a promotion, for example, you're supposed to take everybody out for drinks.
00:26:09.020That's kind of like a standard practice. If you buy a house, you're supposed to invite everybody
00:26:14.600over and give them a huge feast. So you're saying, okay, there's an acknowledgement. I think when
00:26:21.100you get something big like that, that, oh, you know, you helped, my group helped me or my friends
00:26:26.560helped me get to where I am or at work, my coworkers helped me. And so I'm acknowledging
00:26:31.920that I got this promotion, but I couldn't have done it without the team. And so embedded in
00:26:38.080the culture is a way to kind of diffuse that negativity of envy. Yeah. That's really interesting.
00:26:43.100I also thought it was interesting, you know, going along with Korea's and like Asian cultures, sort of collective culture compared to the more individualistic culture we have in the West, is that there's like collective envy.0.66
00:26:54.760And Korea used that collective envy to basically go after Japan.
00:26:59.640I didn't know this, but Korea did not like Japan at all.
00:27:04.660Well, I mean, and good reason too, right?1.00
00:27:07.100The Japanese occupied Korea for, you know, 36 years, wouldn't let Koreans speak their language, did a lot of horrible, horrible things and, you know, took all their treasures, a lot of things.0.99
00:27:20.140So even when you go back to Korea, even now, there is, especially among an older generation, like this, this hatred towards the Japanese.
00:27:30.100And so when I was there in the 70s, you know, we're all striving, you know, Korea had no military power and it wasn't going to go and attack Japan. But I swear, like every day at school, like some teacher would say something to the effect of you need to study hard as students in order for us to beat Japan.
00:27:49.560And beating Japan was like something you heard really often back then. And so collectively, you know, Koreans were working hard, you know, to beat Japan economically. And there is some evidence where you have Korean companies, you know, modeling themselves after Japanese companies and emulating them and then also trying to compete with them and do better.
00:28:13.320And so I think that played out. And yeah, I think K-pop and K-drama and all of those movies like came about because the Korean government figured out like, okay, well, we don't have that many natural resources. So how can we, you know, raise the position of Korea? And so they went after entertainment and sports.
00:28:35.200Yeah. And they succeeded. Like, I guess Korea's economy is better than Japan's economy these days.
00:28:40.280Yeah. I mean, yes. And, you know, it's also following Japan in their aging population right now. So Japan has a large aging population and they've really tried to address that.
00:28:54.140And I mentioned in the book, what was really heartwarming to see was that Koreans were0.83
00:29:01.160continuing to copy like the good stuff in Japan to help its own citizens because they0.97
00:29:08.020could see that their population was also aging.
00:29:10.620So they copied a lot of the programs that the Japanese had developed.0.92
00:34:26.440Why is it impossible to not feel envy?
00:34:29.500Well, first of all, envy comes out of comparison.
00:34:32.160And we can't help but compare. We're social beings. And, you know, even babies compare themselves to others in order to learn about themselves and about the groups they're in, about the people around them. It teaches us how to behave in a group, how to join a group, how to stay in a group, how to not get kicked out of a group.
00:34:53.160That's all information that we get through comparisons. And so we are wired to compare
00:34:59.380ourselves to other people. And then when we compare, we're inevitably going to see and focus
00:35:05.140on the areas where we fall short. It's just natural. It's universal. We can't help but
00:35:11.020compare ourselves and we can't help but envy other people. And so I think that, you know,
00:35:17.000the first thing in terms of our response to the emotion is to recognize, okay, well, I'm just
00:35:23.680human. This is going to happen. Everybody else feels envy, whether they want to admit it or not,
00:35:29.080but you know, this is okay. It's not just because I feel bad doesn't mean that I'm a bad person.
00:35:35.660Because once you start thinking about like, I'm a bad person, then you're starting to feel shame
00:35:40.880and shame is what keeps you stuck. It keeps you from doing something about it because you
00:35:46.860think, oh, it's just inevitable. Like I can't do anything. So what can, how we can respond,
00:35:52.360I think is first to recognize like, okay, this feels bad, but just because I feel bad,
00:35:56.820it doesn't make me a bad person. And then from there, I would say, you know, go through
00:36:02.900the siren, you know, go through that four-step process and like, look at your envy and learn
00:36:10.080about what it's telling you inevitably I think you're going to find that envy what it is that
00:36:18.700you desire is one of three things I guess maybe another way to say it is it's good to try to
00:36:25.520redirect your envy to one of three things and that would be to some kind of meaningful work
00:36:32.780you know activities that you find meaningful it doesn't have to be paid it could be unpaid it
00:36:38.440could be volunteer work, but something that you find that's meaningful to you, that somehow it
00:36:43.840gives you innate satisfaction. And so that's one thing you can do with it. Another thing you can
00:36:50.700do with your envy is to see how can this bring me closer to somebody that I care about or somebody
00:36:57.020that I'm interested in? How can I deepen my relationships with envy? And then third one is,
00:37:03.980well, how can I serve other people? You know, what is envy telling me about how I might serve
00:37:11.120other people? And so when you kind of redirect your envy into one of those three areas,
00:37:16.540I believe that you are developing or you're building a good life.
00:37:21.540Yeah. And I want to talk, dig deeper into each of those three different things. But I think
00:37:25.240it's really interesting that like envy can be a way to figure out what you really want in life.
00:37:31.000because I'm sure you've encountered people like this and I know I have, and I've had even had
00:37:35.380this experience myself where you just feel unsatisfied and you don't know really why you
00:37:42.420feel unsatisfied. And, you know, people ask you like, well, what do you want? Like, what is it
00:37:46.800that you want in life? And you're like, well, I don't know. So you're like unhappy. You don't
00:37:50.520even know what would make you happy. Envy can be a way to figure out what it is you really want.
00:37:56.560Right. It's just like pay attention to like, when do you start feeling envy and dig deep in it with
00:38:01.340that siren thing? And then maybe you actually find the thing that's causing that dissatisfaction in
00:38:07.420your life. Yes. Yeah, that's right. Unfortunately, I think that we can get very confused about what
00:38:13.620we want. There's something called mimetic desire and we will often like learn about what we want
00:38:21.700from other people. And then, you know, if we don't dig in deeper, we start to think that we
00:38:26.640want something, but we don't really want it. Like if everyone around you is really ambitious
00:38:30.820and trying to earn more money, it's easy to fall into that trap and do the same thing because,
00:38:37.160you know, those are your peers. Those are people you're spending a lot of time with,
00:38:40.440but you're not really taking the time to really look at, okay, well, what is it that I really
00:38:46.500want? You're just kind of borrowing the choices of other people. And I think that happens quite a
00:38:51.280it. I think that happens when we're on social media and you think, oh yeah, I do want, I need
00:38:57.160that thing because everybody else wants it. I think that's why we have this raw emotion of envy
00:39:04.080because it does tell us a little bit more. And if we're willing to take the time, we can kind of cut
00:39:10.000through that desire confusion. Yeah. Well, I think that's a good point. Envy can signal that you want
00:39:16.900something but you got to be careful that you're not wanting the wrong thing right right right i
00:39:22.800think there's this idea i forgot who was a psychologist talked about miswanting like there's
00:39:27.560a difference between wanting something and liking something and so we've all i'm sure if you
00:39:32.140experienced that where you're like i want this thing and you just desire it and you spend all
00:39:37.300this time thinking about it and then you finally get it and you're like oh this is gross like it's
00:39:41.700like a food you know like this yeah this thing i thought i wanted it's actually not that good
00:39:45.360Right. Well, I think, you know, advertisers are really good at making you want things that you don't really want or don't really need or, or things that really might not satiate, you know, an inner need. It's very convincing. They know how to push our buttons. And so I think it's easy to get confused. Right.
00:40:07.020And so interpreting, like spending time with our envy and really thinking about it and being honest with ourselves, I think that's really important.
00:40:16.000So, I mean, are there any exercises you walk people through?
00:40:18.940Let's say they experience envy when they see a colleague get a job promotion and they think, well, maybe what I want is a job promotion.
00:40:28.200Do you ever stop and say, well, let's hold on for a second here.