The Art of Manliness - Hercules at the Crossroads — Choosing the Hard Path That Leads to a Good Life

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00:01:13.380 Brett McKay here,

00:01:14.360 and welcome to another edition

00:01:15.320 of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:01:17.560 In a story from ancient Greek philosophy,

00:01:19.960 Hercules faces a choice between two paths,

00:01:22.240 one promising pleasure and ease,

00:01:24.020 the other hardship and struggle,

00:01:25.300 but also growth and greatness.

00:01:27.860 According to today's guest,

00:01:29.220 this ancient parable is more relevant than ever.

00:01:32.180 Dr. Paul Taylor, a psychophysiologist

00:01:34.120 and the author of the new book,

00:01:35.300 The Hardiness Effect,

00:01:36.420 returns to the show to argue

00:01:37.340 that comfort has become our default mode,

00:01:39.260 and it's making us mentally and physically sick.

00:01:41.840 To reclaim health and meaning,

00:01:43.000 we must actively choose the path of Ereté,

00:01:45.200 a life of effort, engagement, and challenge.

00:01:48.080 Paul first outlines the four traits

00:01:49.660 that define a psychologically hardy person

00:01:51.460 and how we grow by embracing

00:01:52.880 and even relishing discomfort.

00:01:54.800 We then dive into the physiological side of hardiness.

00:01:57.440 We discuss how intentionally seeking stressors

00:01:59.240 can strengthen both body and mind

00:02:00.500 and some of the practices and protocols

00:02:02.280 that lead to optimal health.

00:02:03.880 We enter a conversation

00:02:04.660 with what tackling heroic Herculean labors

00:02:06.940 looks like today.

00:02:08.360 After the show's over,

00:02:09.080 check out our show notes at awim.is slash hardiness.

00:02:11.520 All right, Paul Taylor, welcome back to the show.

00:02:27.480 Thanks for having me, Brett.

00:02:28.660 It's such an honor to be a returning guest

00:02:31.120 on your bloody awesome show.

00:02:32.940 Well, we had you on a few years ago

00:02:34.240 to talk about your book, Death by Comfort.

00:02:36.100 You got a new book out called The Hardiness Effect,

00:02:38.800 and I love that word, hardiness, hardy.

00:02:40.980 People need to use that more.

00:02:42.620 And we're going to talk about what that is exactly,

00:02:45.200 but I want to talk about how you open up this book

00:02:47.340 and how it frames what you talk about in the book.

00:02:50.520 You start off the hardiness effect

00:02:52.720 with one of my favorite myths from antiquity.

00:02:55.020 It's the choice of Hercules.

00:02:57.140 For those who aren't familiar with that myth,

00:02:59.280 can you walk us through it

00:03:00.360 and then explain why did you use this myth

00:03:02.640 as the framework for your book?

00:03:05.020 Yeah, look, it's one of my favorite stories as well, Brett.

00:03:08.580 And the myth goes back to Socrates,

00:03:11.340 who told the story of a young Hercules.

00:03:14.460 And in the Greek version, it was Heracles,

00:03:16.520 but we'll just go with Hercules.

00:03:18.420 So he was the son of the god Zeus,

00:03:21.540 and he found himself standing at a literal

00:03:24.340 and a moral crossroads,

00:03:26.240 and two goddesses appeared in front of him.

00:03:28.840 One was Cacchia, who said her name was happiness,

00:03:31.800 but it was actually vice.

00:03:32.880 And the other was arete, which means virtue.

00:03:36.600 Now, Cacchia was beautiful and seductive,

00:03:39.480 and she promised Hercules an easy life,

00:03:42.220 one of luxury, one of comfort and pleasure without effort.

00:03:46.700 Everything he could possibly want would be handed to him.

00:03:50.080 And then on the other hand,

00:03:51.420 and the other road was arete.

00:03:53.280 She was pretty plain in appearance,

00:03:55.100 but she had a bit of a natural beauty.

00:03:57.080 And she told him the truth,

00:03:58.560 that her path would be hard.

00:04:00.480 It would demand discipline, courage, and effort,

00:04:03.760 but it was the only one that led to true fulfillment.

00:04:07.440 So Hercules, as we probably know,

00:04:09.660 he chose arete's path,

00:04:11.860 and that choice actually defined him.

00:04:14.340 It leads to the famous 12 labors of Hercules.

00:04:18.180 These were impossible challenges

00:04:20.220 that he had to undertake that forged his character,

00:04:23.680 and ultimately led to Zeus deifying him,

00:04:27.620 making him a god,

00:04:28.520 because he was impressed with his character.

00:04:31.480 Now, this story, it's not just mythological.

00:04:34.600 It's also psychological as well.

00:04:37.440 And it actually inspired Zeno of Citium,

00:04:40.380 who I know you know,

00:04:41.540 Brett was the founder of Stoicism.

00:04:43.760 And today, this represents the choice

00:04:46.400 that we all have between a life of comfort

00:04:49.460 and a life of challenge.

00:04:51.480 And I used it to frame the hardiness effect,

00:04:54.260 because I believe that we're living through

00:04:56.420 our own version of that myth right now.

00:04:59.400 Only Kakia has had a makeover.

00:05:02.140 She no longer tempts us with this debauchery,

00:05:04.920 but seduces us with a life of comfort and convenience,

00:05:08.860 a life of, we think about it,

00:05:11.480 it's climate-controlled homes,

00:05:12.980 processed foods that are engineered

00:05:14.620 to hijack our dopamine systems.

00:05:17.000 We have endless digital entertainment

00:05:19.200 that gives us an illusion of connection,

00:05:21.820 but ultimately delivers loneliness.

00:05:24.320 And this modern life of ease,

00:05:26.300 I think, leads to a life of disease.

00:05:29.560 Now, it's really comfort creep

00:05:31.480 on a civilization scale.

00:05:33.920 We've now medicalized normal emotional experiences.

00:05:38.540 We've created effort for ease

00:05:40.700 and created a society where the default is comfort.

00:05:44.600 And the outcome really is fragility.

00:05:47.000 It's physical, it's mental,

00:05:48.460 it's emotional fragility.

00:05:49.700 And we see that in rates of obesity,

00:05:52.260 chronic disease,

00:05:53.680 and mental illness reflecting it.

00:05:56.000 So really, the story of Hercules at the crossroads

00:05:59.180 became my metaphor for modern human condition.

00:06:03.340 And every day we choose,

00:06:05.500 do we walk Kakia's path of ease and decay,

00:06:09.120 or Arate's path of discipline, growth, and meaning?

00:06:12.940 And really, the hardiness effect

00:06:14.300 is an instructional manual

00:06:16.020 for choosing Arate in the modern world.

00:06:18.580 It's about building the psychological

00:06:21.240 and physiological capacity to take the hard path

00:06:24.960 because that is the one that leads to the good life.

00:06:28.660 At the beginning of the book,

00:06:29.360 you talk about the consequences

00:06:30.920 of our modern-day Kakia path

00:06:33.440 that a lot of Westerners are living.

00:06:36.020 And you get into the statistics.

00:06:37.520 Obesity, diabetes, mental illness

00:06:40.680 has just been creeping up

00:06:42.220 for the past several decades.

00:06:43.520 And you argue that it's because

00:06:45.340 just our way of life

00:06:47.040 where we can be sedentary

00:06:48.680 and be isolated

00:06:49.880 and not do hard things

00:06:52.840 is what's contributing to that.

00:06:55.400 Absolutely, 100%.

00:06:56.860 You know, if you take an animal

00:06:58.780 out of its natural environment,

00:07:01.280 that animal does not do well.

00:07:02.900 And this is what's happened to us

00:07:04.580 is that we have slowly, over time,

00:07:08.440 moved into an environment

00:07:09.880 that is not natural for us.

00:07:11.700 We are not meant to be creatures of comfort.

00:07:15.280 It is actually through challenge,

00:07:17.840 physical and mental challenge,

00:07:19.160 that we actually become really human.

00:07:22.260 And when we don't have those challenges,

00:07:23.960 we actually decay.

00:07:25.080 The body just reacts to the environment.

00:07:27.820 Yeah, I mean, we had Herman Ponsner

00:07:29.920 on the podcast.

00:07:31.340 He studies metabolism.

00:07:33.020 Yes, I know him.

00:07:34.380 Yeah, one of the big takeaways I got from him

00:07:35.820 is the human body has to move.

00:07:38.300 Like, you have to move for overall health.

00:07:40.700 And if you don't, you just get fat.

00:07:43.160 What's interesting, other primates,

00:07:45.300 like gorillas and chimpanzees,

00:07:47.180 they can sit around and eat leaves all day

00:07:49.820 and they don't get fat

00:07:51.160 because they don't have to move.

00:07:52.300 But for some reason, humans,

00:07:53.540 you have to move

00:07:54.280 in order to stay metabolically healthy.

00:07:56.660 And our environment,

00:07:58.020 our lives no longer compel us

00:07:59.360 to do that anymore.

00:08:00.400 That's right.

00:08:00.880 And actually, when you look,

00:08:01.980 our biology is so wired from movement.

00:08:06.140 Hernan is absolutely correct.

00:08:08.820 And what we know is that

00:08:10.120 when we don't move,

00:08:11.100 not only does it affect us physically,

00:08:13.600 but it also affects us mentally

00:08:15.340 and psychologically.

00:08:16.740 Like, every time you exercise,

00:08:19.440 I like to tell people

00:08:20.580 there is a neurosymphony

00:08:22.980 going on in your brain.

00:08:25.000 There is this orchestra

00:08:26.120 of neurotransmitters.

00:08:27.220 Everybody knows about endorphins,

00:08:28.780 but when you exercise,

00:08:30.420 we also release dopamine,

00:08:31.820 we release serotonin,

00:08:33.040 we release noradrenaline,

00:08:34.380 we release endocannabinoids,

00:08:35.140 cannabinoids,

00:08:35.860 but at least encephalins in our brain.

00:08:37.960 And these are all positive neurotransmitters

00:08:39.960 that not only help your brain

00:08:41.820 to function well,

00:08:43.280 but are really important

00:08:45.140 for good mental health.

00:08:47.280 And so I always say to people,

00:08:48.740 like, if you have a life

00:08:50.060 where you're not moving very much,

00:08:51.860 and especially if you combine that

00:08:53.860 with eating a crappy diet

00:08:55.500 and not sleeping very well,

00:08:57.440 good luck with your mental health

00:08:58.980 because you are swimming upstream massively.

00:09:02.180 We're just starving our body

00:09:04.400 of what it actually needs

00:09:05.780 to perform normally,

00:09:08.180 never mind optimally.

00:09:10.320 So we all face this choice

00:09:12.340 to choose Kakia,

00:09:13.860 but the problem with,

00:09:14.940 we have today,

00:09:15.900 is that it's not so much a choice.

00:09:17.120 Like, Kakia is almost like the default,

00:09:18.680 and you have to kind of fight against it,

00:09:20.440 and you have to choose,

00:09:21.900 intentionally choose Erete.

00:09:23.760 I mean, maybe you can argue 200 years ago,

00:09:26.040 you were kind of forced to choose Erete

00:09:27.480 because you had a farm

00:09:28.700 and you had to work hard,

00:09:30.260 you know, just to live your life,

00:09:32.660 and Kakia was sort of like a luxury.

00:09:35.380 Today, it's the opposite almost,

00:09:37.700 and you have to intentionally choose Erete,

00:09:40.280 and you propose that hardiness

00:09:42.440 is the way to choose the path of Erete.

00:09:45.660 And what's interesting,

00:09:46.820 hardiness, it's a fun word.

00:09:48.200 I think of the hardy boys,

00:09:49.680 kind of these vital young men,

00:09:51.960 you're full of vigor,

00:09:53.300 but there's actually a psychological concept.

00:09:55.380 How do researchers define hardiness?

00:09:58.660 Yeah, look, it's a bit of a close cousin to resilience,

00:10:03.100 and often they're used interchangeably in the research,

00:10:05.880 but they're actually not the same.

00:10:07.320 Resilience is more of an outcome.

00:10:09.420 It's about bouncing back,

00:10:10.780 but it doesn't tell you how to get there.

00:10:13.220 Hardiness actually does.

00:10:15.180 So it was first identified by Dr. Suzanne Kobasa

00:10:19.360 and Dr. Salvatore Matty in the 1970s,

00:10:22.500 and really explains why some people thrive under stress

00:10:26.740 while other people crumble.

00:10:28.800 So they did this landmark 12-year study

00:10:31.300 at Illinois Bell Telephone Company,

00:10:34.000 and they were going through a corporate crisis,

00:10:36.020 and they found that over those 12 years,

00:10:38.420 about two-thirds of the employees fell apart under pressure,

00:10:42.320 but a third of them didn't just cope.

00:10:45.320 They actually grew stronger,

00:10:46.760 and they found that these groups,

00:10:49.380 they shared three core attitudes,

00:10:52.040 a challenge orientation,

00:10:53.300 a control orientation,

00:10:54.180 and a commitment orientation.

00:10:56.440 So let's look at each one of those.

00:10:58.680 Challenge orientation and hardiness

00:11:00.200 is about seeing both change and adversity

00:11:03.760 as opportunities for growth rather than threats.

00:11:08.700 Control is the belief that you control

00:11:11.760 or heavily influence your environment or your destiny,

00:11:14.580 and in psychology, we call that an internal locus of control,

00:11:18.880 and it's also about focusing your energy

00:11:21.060 on what you can control or influence

00:11:23.320 rather than feeling like a victim.

00:11:25.720 And then the last is commitment.

00:11:27.400 This is about being fully engaged in life

00:11:30.380 and living with purpose

00:11:32.060 instead of withdrawing or wandering aimlessly.

00:11:35.640 Now, these guys started the research,

00:11:37.680 but other researchers like Paul Bartone,

00:11:39.660 he's a U.S. Army psychologist,

00:11:41.600 and he's great,

00:11:42.440 and he's a bit of a mentor of mine in this area.

00:11:45.660 He really expanded the research,

00:11:47.780 and he found that hardiness actually predicted

00:11:51.140 who passed and who failed basic military training,

00:11:54.460 and then found that hardiness predicted

00:11:56.920 who passed special forces selection course.

00:12:00.660 And it's then,

00:12:01.500 it's been shown that hardiness predicts career longevity

00:12:04.380 and high-pressure careers

00:12:06.660 such as the military, police, and first responders.

00:12:09.940 And so if resilience is about bouncing back,

00:12:14.080 hardiness is about bouncing forward.

00:12:16.440 It's the process that creates resilience.

00:12:19.820 And the benefits are huge,

00:12:21.100 as well as predicting success in high-pressure environments.

00:12:25.480 High hardiness scores predict better cardiovascular health,

00:12:29.100 stronger immune systems,

00:12:30.720 lower rates of anxiety and depression,

00:12:32.460 and even kids who are higher in hardiness

00:12:35.220 are much more likely to go to university

00:12:37.940 independent of their socioeconomic status,

00:12:40.920 which is pretty critical.

00:12:42.500 And then in my own PhD research,

00:12:44.520 we ran a six-week hardiness intervention,

00:12:47.140 and we saw measurable improvements,

00:12:50.100 statistically significant in mental well-being,

00:12:53.020 in stress tolerance,

00:12:54.800 and hardiness,

00:12:55.740 as well as measures of cognitive performance.

00:12:58.780 So we showed that you can learn it.

00:13:00.800 It's not just a trait you were born with.

00:13:03.000 It's a set of learnable skills.

00:13:05.600 And I've added a fourth C,

00:13:07.120 that of connection,

00:13:08.200 which I'm sure we'll unpack a little bit.

00:13:10.620 But really for me,

00:13:12.140 choosing hardiness,

00:13:13.240 like you said,

00:13:14.020 is today's version of choosing the path of Aratae.

00:13:17.660 It's committing to growth through discomfort,

00:13:20.780 both psychological and physiological.

00:13:23.740 And the payoff is a life that's not just longer,

00:13:27.220 but also fuller,

00:13:28.500 more engaged,

00:13:29.380 makes them more meaningful.

00:13:31.320 So what you've done in the book,

00:13:32.780 you've broken down hardiness to two parts.

00:13:34.860 There's psychological and physiological hardiness.

00:13:37.900 And it seems like those three Cs you laid out,

00:13:40.820 the challenge, control, commitment,

00:13:42.860 and then the fourth one,

00:13:44.000 then you've added connection.

00:13:44.880 We'll talk about that here.

00:13:45.780 That makes up psychological hardiness, correct?

00:13:49.120 Correct.

00:13:49.580 That's right.

00:13:50.020 Yes.

00:13:50.280 Yeah.

00:13:50.760 Well, let's dig deeper into these different components,

00:13:52.660 these four Cs of psychological hardiness.

00:13:54.680 You mentioned the first one is challenge.

00:13:56.220 This is about seeing adversity as a challenge instead of a stressor.

00:14:01.140 How can seeing stress and adversity in your life as a challenge,

00:14:04.140 as opposed to something just to upset you,

00:14:07.160 how does that change your psychology and even your physiology?

00:14:11.220 Yeah.

00:14:11.620 Look,

00:14:11.960 it has a massive effect.

00:14:13.600 It changes how we think,

00:14:15.840 how we act,

00:14:17.220 and even how our cells behave.

00:14:19.720 So at its core,

00:14:21.060 challenge orientation is about how we appraise stress.

00:14:24.460 It's the view we take of it.

00:14:26.160 So when something tough happens,

00:14:28.120 whether it's you're in a big project,

00:14:30.020 you're in an argument,

00:14:30.960 or some sort of a setback,

00:14:32.680 your brain decides almost instantly,

00:14:34.920 is this a threat or is this a challenge?

00:14:37.080 And that split-second perception

00:14:39.020 actually dictates both your psychological leaning

00:14:41.860 and your physiological response.

00:14:44.060 So if you view it as a threat,

00:14:47.300 you go into avoidance mode.

00:14:49.200 So you're motivated to leave,

00:14:51.480 to procrastinate,

00:14:52.400 to run away.

00:14:53.140 It's the flight part of fight or flight.

00:14:55.800 Whereas if you see it as a challenge,

00:14:58.080 it's what we call approach orientation in psychology.

00:15:01.400 You actually lean in.

00:15:03.360 And then physiologically,

00:15:05.020 it's very,

00:15:05.920 very different.

00:15:06.900 When you see it as a threat,

00:15:08.300 your body kind of constricts,

00:15:10.420 your blood vessels,

00:15:11.460 cortisol rises,

00:15:12.700 your cognitive flexibility drops,

00:15:15.080 and the chemicals,

00:15:16.520 the major stress hormone is cortisol.

00:15:19.260 And I'll come back to that in a second.

00:15:20.500 But when you see something as a challenge,

00:15:23.840 your cardiovascular system actually responds

00:15:26.040 like it does during exercise.

00:15:27.880 Your blood flows freely,

00:15:29.640 oxygen delivery improves,

00:15:31.540 performance and cognition actually rise.

00:15:34.400 And this is the fight part of the fight or flight.

00:15:37.880 Now,

00:15:38.600 the chemicals involved in your body

00:15:40.680 with a challenge orientation,

00:15:42.640 it is about the hormones adrenaline and noradrenaline,

00:15:46.360 which in your side of the ditch,

00:15:48.300 they call epinephrine and norepinephrine.

00:15:51.160 Now,

00:15:51.400 the half-life of those chemicals

00:15:53.060 is about a minute.

00:15:55.000 And that means,

00:15:55.900 with about four half-lives,

00:15:57.520 that chemical's out of your body.

00:15:58.800 So,

00:15:59.320 within five minutes,

00:16:01.320 your body is back to homeostasis.

00:16:03.400 So,

00:16:03.960 say me and you both have the same situation,

00:16:06.520 you view it as a challenge,

00:16:08.140 your body is back to homeostasis within five minutes.

00:16:10.680 With me,

00:16:11.180 because I've released cortisol,

00:16:13.440 the half-life of cortisol is well over an hour.

00:16:16.620 So,

00:16:16.940 that means that hours later,

00:16:18.540 even when that challenge or threat is gone,

00:16:21.620 my body is still in a stress state.

00:16:23.700 I still have cortisol

00:16:24.760 going through my bloodstream,

00:16:26.760 attacking my organs and my brain.

00:16:28.760 Now,

00:16:29.400 this isn't just theory.

00:16:30.720 There's research by numerous psychologists

00:16:32.840 that show that our mindset towards stress

00:16:35.720 literally changes our biology.

00:16:38.740 And people with a challenge orientation,

00:16:40.960 they recover faster from stress,

00:16:43.400 they got lower inflammatory markers,

00:16:45.660 and they perform better under pressure.

00:16:47.980 And I recently interviewed

00:16:49.300 Professor Jeremy Jameson.

00:16:50.860 He ran a series of experiments

00:16:52.200 with college students

00:16:53.220 before an exam.

00:16:54.800 I think,

00:16:55.300 do you call it the GRE, Brett?

00:16:56.680 Yeah,

00:16:57.100 to get into grad school.

00:16:58.700 Yeah,

00:16:59.040 that's it.

00:16:59.360 The one to get into grad school.

00:17:00.780 And he told half of them

00:17:02.840 that anxiety was a normal thing

00:17:05.860 and it actually prepared their body to action

00:17:08.540 and could translate it into better performance.

00:17:10.960 And the other half,

00:17:11.760 the control group,

00:17:12.380 he told no such thing.

00:17:13.900 And then they all did a mock exam

00:17:15.400 and the people who he primed that anxiety,

00:17:19.260 this challenge orientation,

00:17:20.720 they did better in the mock exam,

00:17:22.440 but they also then did better

00:17:23.840 in the real thing as well.

00:17:25.600 So your perception influences your performance as well.

00:17:30.120 And the Stoics understood this 2,000 years ago.

00:17:33.560 You know,

00:17:33.820 Seneca said,

00:17:34.760 a gem cannot be polished without friction,

00:17:37.880 nor a man perfected without trials.

00:17:40.740 And the idea is that the friction is the forge.

00:17:45.220 Hardiness is about leaning into that friction deliberately.

00:17:49.640 That's the key thing.

00:17:50.760 Yeah,

00:17:51.220 I think that's a powerful concept to understand.

00:17:53.860 If you see your stress in your life,

00:17:57.080 not as a threat,

00:17:57.860 but as a challenge,

00:17:58.620 there's so many benefits to that.

00:18:00.300 Any tips that you found,

00:18:02.040 research-backed tips,

00:18:02.840 on how you can strengthen your challenge muscle?

00:18:06.040 I mean,

00:18:06.300 I think one you talked about

00:18:07.380 is this idea of acceptance and reprisal.

00:18:10.320 Yeah,

00:18:10.660 yeah,

00:18:10.860 yeah.

00:18:11.000 So this is really key.

00:18:12.440 And,

00:18:12.720 you know,

00:18:13.080 it goes back to

00:18:14.360 even the Stoics who talked about life being hard.

00:18:17.140 The Buddha,

00:18:17.640 you know,

00:18:18.540 the first noble truth of Buddhism is life is suffering.

00:18:21.480 Well,

00:18:21.680 the word is actually dukkha,

00:18:23.820 which means hard to do.

00:18:26.040 So it's first of all,

00:18:27.700 accepting that life is going to be hard.

00:18:30.860 And then,

00:18:32.100 then it's about accepting that,

00:18:34.360 that,

00:18:34.660 you know,

00:18:34.960 you are going to come through challenges in your life.

00:18:37.640 And I tell this to my kids,

00:18:38.580 I say to my kids,

00:18:39.520 life is amazing,

00:18:40.780 but it is also going to be hard at times.

00:18:43.800 And it's about how you react to that.

00:18:46.760 So first of all,

00:18:48.180 it's just accepting that life is going to be hard,

00:18:51.140 that occasionally you will get sandwiches from the universe.

00:18:54.840 And that acceptance puts you into a state where you can then reappraise.

00:18:59.700 This reappraisal is training your brain to interpret stress as fuel rather than poison.

00:19:06.880 I call it stress alchemy.

00:19:08.520 When you feel that surge,

00:19:10.600 the heart rate rising your tension,

00:19:12.940 instead of saying to yourself,

00:19:14.220 I'm anxious,

00:19:15.180 say I'm energized.

00:19:16.400 That's the key thing.

00:19:17.900 And this is the psychological framing.

00:19:19.900 And it's,

00:19:20.120 it's basically,

00:19:20.780 you know,

00:19:21.960 the,

00:19:22.080 the Stoics talked about life being a contest.

00:19:25.340 So it's about getting yourself up for the contest of life and seeing these things as challenges to actually test and develop you.

00:19:34.220 So that's really key.

00:19:35.720 And that reappraisal of viewing stuff as a challenge rather than a threat,

00:19:40.600 you can do it not just in the moment when you're dealing with stress,

00:19:45.240 but also you can look back on it and actually taking time for your listeners to think of times in your life that were really hard or stressful.

00:19:54.860 And then looking back now,

00:19:57.140 like how did that benefit you?

00:19:59.240 What was the silver lining that came?

00:20:02.420 So you can do this reappraisal two ways.

00:20:05.960 One is viewing things as challenges,

00:20:07.660 but then secondly,

00:20:09.060 looking back on the hard stuff and going,

00:20:12.620 hey,

00:20:12.740 what did I learn from that?

00:20:14.000 How did I actually grow from that?

00:20:16.420 And that's really key.

00:20:18.300 All right.

00:20:18.420 Let's talk about that second C,

00:20:20.000 which is control.

00:20:20.880 It's about having an internal locus of control.

00:20:23.400 What can the Stoics and Admiral James Stockdale teaches about developing an internal locus of control?

00:20:29.340 I love that.

00:20:30.120 So I have a copy of Epictetus's Encredion,

00:20:33.540 which roughly translates as a manual for life.

00:20:35.920 And the very first line of this is of things,

00:20:40.700 some are up to us and others are not.

00:20:43.940 This is really about the Stoic dichotomy of control.

00:20:47.200 And it's one of the most powerful psychological tools ever developed.

00:20:51.120 Marcus Aurelius,

00:20:51.740 he put it beautifully.

00:20:52.760 You have power over your mind,

00:20:54.460 not outside events.

00:20:56.540 Realize this and you will find strength.

00:20:59.680 And this is really what's at the heart of the control component.

00:21:03.220 When you're in control orientation,

00:21:06.160 you don't waste mental energy on things you can't change.

00:21:10.220 Whether it's the weather,

00:21:11.540 other people's opinions,

00:21:12.900 the economy,

00:21:14.300 or those sorts of things,

00:21:15.400 you focus on what you can do

00:21:17.820 and what you can influence.

00:21:20.400 And that actually reduces our stress

00:21:23.180 because it takes us out of victim mode

00:21:25.460 and gives us some agency.

00:21:27.880 So the Stoics said that we must focus on that which we can control

00:21:31.920 and refuse to invest our energy in that which we can't control.

00:21:36.300 And a lot of people get into trouble psychologically

00:21:38.180 when they're investing their energy in stuff they can't control.

00:21:41.460 They're in their own heads wishing their past to be different,

00:21:44.940 wishing other people to be different,

00:21:47.200 wishing the universe to orientate around them.

00:21:50.440 These are all things that we can't control.

00:21:52.760 Now, Stockdale,

00:21:53.560 I love that you mentioned Stockdale.

00:21:54.940 He's a bit of a personal hero of mine.

00:21:57.520 And he is a modern day Stoic.

00:21:59.760 And he really embodies this control orientation.

00:22:02.520 Now, Stockdale,

00:22:03.620 he was shot down over North Vietnam

00:22:05.600 and he spent seven and a half years

00:22:07.520 in the infamous Hanoi Hilton prison camp.

00:22:10.900 And four of those years,

00:22:12.320 he was in solitary confinement.

00:22:14.340 He was tortured on 15 separate occasions.

00:22:17.560 But what kept him going was Stoicism,

00:22:20.780 specifically Epictetus's Incridaeon,

00:22:23.920 that he had brought that to war with him.

00:22:26.200 And when he got shot down,

00:22:27.140 he talks about this in a number of his books,

00:22:29.940 as he ejected out of his aircraft

00:22:32.020 and he was coming down to land,

00:22:33.980 he could see the Viet Cong coming in to capture him.

00:22:37.260 And he said to himself,

00:22:38.500 I'm now leaving my world,

00:22:40.200 the world of technology,

00:22:41.800 and I'm entering into the world of Epictetus.

00:22:45.200 And he knew that he couldn't control his captors

00:22:48.180 or his circumstances or the torture,

00:22:50.640 but he could control how he responded to it.

00:22:53.580 So Stockdale famously,

00:22:55.220 he took control of his mind.

00:22:57.340 He maintained leadership over the other prisoners

00:22:59.600 because he was the senior officer in there

00:23:01.360 and created meaning within chaos.

00:23:04.520 And it was that focusing on what he can control,

00:23:08.240 that was really central to his success in there

00:23:11.380 and him helping his other fellow prisoners to get through.

00:23:15.060 Now, studies in both military and organizational settings

00:23:18.800 show that people who have a strong internal locus of control,

00:23:23.180 they experience less anxiety,

00:23:24.900 they perform better under pressure,

00:23:26.460 and they recover faster from trauma.

00:23:29.800 And so it's proactive rather than reactive.

00:23:32.800 And you can actually train yourself into this way as well.

00:23:36.620 You can develop your control muscle if you like.

00:23:39.900 Yeah, how do you do that?

00:23:41.320 Well, it's basically changing your narrative.

00:23:44.340 So say you got pissed off about something,

00:23:46.020 a lot of people will go,

00:23:47.720 they made me angry,

00:23:49.300 or this ruined my day,

00:23:51.300 or I had no choice in this.

00:23:53.080 All of those things are handing away control.

00:23:56.380 It's actually about self-awareness is really the first thing.

00:23:59.680 And reframing that in your head from,

00:24:02.280 they made me angry to,

00:24:03.720 I chose to feel angry.

00:24:05.740 I decided to let that affect me.

00:24:08.300 Now, that can be a bit uncomfortable at first

00:24:11.000 and a bit awkward,

00:24:11.740 but it really is incredibly empowering

00:24:14.020 because what you're actually training yourself to do

00:24:16.820 is to realize that you have a choice

00:24:19.460 about how you react to things.

00:24:21.340 That's really key.

00:24:22.920 And I think another second practice

00:24:25.160 is the Stoic idea of visualizing your day.

00:24:28.880 Now, this might seem a bit pessimistic,

00:24:31.060 but it's actually really helpful.

00:24:32.460 It's basically the Stoics used to,

00:24:34.120 Marcus Relius famously would do this.

00:24:36.120 He would think about all the things

00:24:37.640 that could possibly go wrong,

00:24:39.420 the bad people he would meet,

00:24:41.180 and what he would actually do for that.

00:24:44.100 So it's about mental rehearsal

00:24:45.880 so that when the bad stuff happens,

00:24:48.460 you're actually ready to do that.

00:24:50.600 And then it's about doing little small daily acts.

00:24:55.480 It's about making your bed properly,

00:24:57.880 finishing your workout even when you don't want to, right?

00:25:01.580 Choosing the healthy thing

00:25:02.920 rather than the unhealthy thing,

00:25:04.420 and then reflecting on it and going,

00:25:06.480 hey, I made a conscious choice there around control.

00:25:10.040 Every little action just builds that muscle bit by bit.

00:25:15.360 All right, so the third C is commitment.

00:25:16.880 What is it about commitment that makes us more hardy?

00:25:21.600 Yeah, so it's interesting.

00:25:22.720 There's a number of different elements to commitment,

00:25:24.880 but they all interact with each other.

00:25:26.760 So first, it's really about being fully engaged in life.

00:25:31.880 And I am increasingly concerned about modern society,

00:25:35.920 and I know you are, Brett, as well,

00:25:37.320 because I listen to your podcast,

00:25:38.600 that there's an increasing amount of people

00:25:41.460 who are spending an increasing amount of their spare time

00:25:45.520 within the confines of four walls

00:25:48.000 with their heads buried in a bloody screen,

00:25:50.980 either scrolling on social media or watching crappy TV.

00:25:54.040 These people are what I call passive consumers of life.

00:25:59.960 And it's the polar opposite to high-hardiness commitment.

00:26:03.600 High-hardy, committed people are fully engaged in life,

00:26:08.560 whether it's their work, their relationships,

00:26:10.820 their health, or their learning.

00:26:12.820 They're people, you know these people

00:26:14.380 because they're curious, they bring positive energy,

00:26:17.900 they derive their meaning from participation,

00:26:20.640 not from results.

00:26:21.680 And I really think that this commitment

00:26:24.540 is a bit of an antidote to apathy.

00:26:27.440 So in our culture, it's really easy to live that passive life

00:26:31.960 of scrolling, multitasking,

00:26:34.620 of numbing yourself with drugs and alcohol.

00:26:37.080 But when you're committed, you're really present.

00:26:40.380 And the Stoics really talked about this as well.

00:26:42.620 And Seneca said, it's not that we have a short time to live,

00:26:46.560 but that we waste a lot of it.

00:26:48.620 And this is about whether or not you are fully engaged.

00:26:53.000 Now, linked to that in commitment to orientation

00:26:56.000 is a sense of meaning and purpose.

00:26:58.560 And in Viktor Frankl's book, Man's Search for Meaning,

00:27:00.700 which I read as a 17-year-old,

00:27:02.220 that had a pretty profound effect on my life.

00:27:05.160 And he showed that those who survived the concentration camps,

00:27:09.300 they weren't the strongest or the smartest,

00:27:11.520 but they were the people who were committed to a purpose

00:27:14.200 that was bigger than themselves.

00:27:15.660 And the hardiness research actually echoes that.

00:27:19.680 Salvador Maddy found that people who were high in commitment,

00:27:23.480 they kept deeply engaged in their work

00:27:26.540 and their relationships under stress.

00:27:28.660 They handle stress far better than people with low commitment.

00:27:32.360 And they actually experience a lot less burnout.

00:27:36.100 So what are some things we can do to develop our commitment muscle?

00:27:40.700 Yeah.

00:27:40.960 So what is about really clarifying your values?

00:27:44.420 And I think part of the problem in modern society

00:27:48.080 is the decline of religion.

00:27:50.840 Now, I'm not religious at all.

00:27:52.840 I'm more of a spiritual person.

00:27:55.020 But I think what religion did was it gave people a sense

00:27:59.460 of shared values and meaning.

00:28:02.740 And when that's missing, if you don't deliberately find it,

00:28:06.120 people can end up in an existential vacuum.

00:28:08.600 So it's really about getting clear on your values,

00:28:12.840 the stuff that is meaningful to you.

00:28:15.900 And then it's about creating systems around,

00:28:19.380 because motivation, that will get you started.

00:28:21.480 So this gets into another part of commitment orientation,

00:28:24.680 which is about being committed to your health.

00:28:26.900 It's not just about having goals,

00:28:28.520 but it's about having processes

00:28:30.400 that will actually help you to get to the person

00:28:34.760 that you want to be and ideally linking them to your values.

00:28:38.580 And then I like to get people to do

00:28:40.520 what I call a tombstone statement,

00:28:42.940 which is what would you like to be written

00:28:44.920 on your tombstone that would sum up

00:28:47.680 your contribution to society

00:28:49.980 or your little corner of the universe?

00:28:52.420 You know, it's a kind of a morbid thing,

00:28:54.480 you know, thinking of how would I be thought of

00:28:56.400 when I'm dead?

00:28:57.360 But that is the thing that uncovers

00:28:59.680 that deeper sense of meaning and purpose.

00:29:02.100 So getting clear on your values

00:29:04.480 and on your purpose in life,

00:29:06.320 and then trying to live intentionally,

00:29:08.920 using those values as a compass,

00:29:11.280 these are the things that really helps

00:29:13.580 to drive that commitment orientation.

00:29:16.300 All right, so you added a fourth C

00:29:18.200 to these three Cs of psychological hardiness.

00:29:21.360 That's connection.

00:29:22.640 That's about connecting with others.

00:29:24.060 What is it about connecting with others

00:29:25.760 that makes us more psychologically hardy?

00:29:29.320 Well, look, Brett,

00:29:29.940 the human brain is essentially a social organ

00:29:32.420 and we need that social connection.

00:29:35.340 We know that when somebody is lonely,

00:29:38.200 it is as bad for their health

00:29:39.780 as smoking 20 cigarettes a day.

00:29:41.620 You know, it takes 10 to 12 years off your life.

00:29:44.560 And it's hugely, hugely important.

00:29:46.760 You know, we talked about Stockdale

00:29:48.180 and in the Hanoi Hilton,

00:29:50.700 the thing that got these guys through

00:29:52.620 when they were put in solitary confinement

00:29:54.320 was they created this thing called the tap code

00:29:57.160 where they could tap out the letters of the alphabet

00:30:00.040 on the walls and the pipes

00:30:01.300 and they created all this shorthand.

00:30:03.840 And the tap code was the glue

00:30:05.820 that held these guys together.

00:30:08.380 When you connect with somebody else,

00:30:11.540 you release oxytocin and vasopressin in your brains.

00:30:14.660 Now, they are the hormones of love, trust,

00:30:16.900 and social bonding,

00:30:17.900 but they are also the most potent anti-stress chemicals

00:30:22.360 that human beings produce.

00:30:25.060 And decades of research on military veterans,

00:30:28.480 as well as people who've been through trauma,

00:30:30.680 shows that those who are socially connected,

00:30:34.360 who have people that they can lean into,

00:30:36.740 they suffer much less PTSD and suicide

00:30:39.660 than people who don't have those social connections.

00:30:42.380 And it's because we are evolved to survive

00:30:45.980 and thrive in tribes.

00:30:47.880 And social support is one of the most powerful buffers

00:30:51.560 against stress that we have.

00:30:53.300 I mean, Paul Bartone showed this on PTSD.

00:30:56.880 And also, there's a researcher,

00:30:59.000 I think her name's Julianne,

00:31:00.300 I think it's Holt-Lunstead,

00:31:02.160 and she showed that people with strong relations,

00:31:04.760 social relationships,

00:31:05.940 they got a 50% lower risk of premature death

00:31:09.700 than people who don't have those relationships.

00:31:13.540 So connection for me is hugely, hugely important.

00:31:16.340 And that's part of today's massive problem of Kakeya,

00:31:20.000 is that we are massively digitally connected,

00:31:24.520 more connected than we've ever been,

00:31:26.480 but we are really disconnected

00:31:29.120 when it comes from to a face-to-face perspective.

00:31:32.560 Yeah, we had Derek Thompson on the podcast

00:31:34.660 a while back ago.

00:31:35.880 He wrote an article for The Atlantic

00:31:37.980 about how, is basically,

00:31:40.660 there's no loneliness epidemic

00:31:42.500 because people aren't really feeling lonely

00:31:44.980 because we have all of this technology

00:31:47.280 that can, basically, we don't feel like we're lonely.

00:31:50.760 And so we don't feel like we have the need

00:31:52.060 to reach out to people,

00:31:53.020 but we're still seeing the ill effects

00:31:55.900 of not actually connecting with other people.

00:31:58.420 Yeah, when you do face-to-face interactions,

00:32:01.960 it is very, very different to online interactions.

00:32:05.720 And he makes a good point that we don't actually notice it

00:32:09.200 because we still think that we are connected,

00:32:12.100 but there is nothing that replaces

00:32:14.760 that face-to-face interaction.

00:32:16.560 And other research has shown

00:32:17.800 that it is about catching up with people in person.

00:32:22.100 It's about having good friends

00:32:23.340 that you will see at least once a month.

00:32:25.680 That is one of the real key things here.

00:32:28.000 Yeah.

00:32:28.200 So it takes intention.

00:32:29.420 You have to be intentional about this

00:32:30.620 because everyone's schedule's crazy.

00:32:32.820 You're not just going to run into your friends

00:32:35.260 like maybe you would have done a century ago.

00:32:38.340 You have to plan for it.

00:32:40.180 You have to choose it.

00:32:41.820 You absolutely do.

00:32:42.900 You're 100% right, Brett.

00:32:44.420 And it's not about waiting for other people

00:32:46.740 to organize something.

00:32:48.860 It's about being the connector

00:32:50.640 in your little corner of the universe.

00:32:53.360 Taking that on board, I think, is really key.

00:32:56.100 We're going to take a quick break

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00:34:01.580 And now back to the show.

00:34:03.600 All right, so that's psychological hardiness.

00:34:05.320 So there's the four Cs.

00:34:06.440 Challenge orientation,

00:34:07.500 have an internal locus of control,

00:34:09.660 commitments of being engaged,

00:34:11.420 have a higher purpose that you're going for,

00:34:13.520 and then connecting with others.

00:34:15.440 That can give you psychological hardiness.

00:34:17.860 Let's talk about physiological hardiness.

00:34:20.720 And we had you on last time talking about your book,

00:34:24.200 Death by Comfort.

00:34:25.380 And one of the things we talked about in that podcast

00:34:27.740 was how hormesis can be the antidote

00:34:31.360 to the damage that all this comfort

00:34:33.960 is causing to us physiologically.

00:34:36.020 For those who aren't familiar with hormesis,

00:34:38.740 what is it?

00:34:40.240 So hormesis is basically,

00:34:42.900 it's summed up by the words of Friedrich Nietzsche,

00:34:45.420 that which does not kill us,

00:34:46.900 and I'm sure all your listeners can finish the sentence,

00:34:49.520 makes us stronger.

00:34:50.980 And this goes back,

00:34:52.240 it actually goes back to biology,

00:34:54.100 like core biology.

00:34:55.780 Edward Calabresi first noticed in his PhD research,

00:34:59.320 he was giving pesticides to plants

00:35:01.660 to try to kill them

00:35:02.580 and seeing what was the smallest dose

00:35:04.880 that would actually kill them.

00:35:06.600 And he found that at small doses,

00:35:08.900 the plants actually flourished

00:35:10.620 when they were given small doses of poison.

00:35:13.360 And that led him to a whole heap of research

00:35:16.440 and other researchers that they had joined in

00:35:18.360 that shows that when we are exposed

00:35:20.940 to small doses,

00:35:22.600 intermittent doses of stress,

00:35:24.680 we actually get stronger,

00:35:26.820 more robust at a cellular level.

00:35:29.980 And so when your body is presented with stressors,

00:35:35.020 something called the cell danger response kicks off.

00:35:38.900 And that is the cells actually responding to stress

00:35:42.300 by upregulating protective pathways.

00:35:45.580 I describe them in the book.

00:35:46.800 There's things like NRF2 and HIF1,

00:35:49.840 but these drive our antioxidant defenses,

00:35:53.060 they make our mitochondria stronger,

00:35:55.640 and they drive cellular cleanup processes like autophagy.

00:35:59.180 And it's basically your cell saying,

00:36:02.040 hey, we're under a bit of pressure here.

00:36:03.680 We need to get fitter.

00:36:05.200 We need to train for this eventuality.

00:36:08.120 And so for me,

00:36:09.860 physiological hardiness

00:36:11.160 and psychological hardiness,

00:36:13.780 our physiological hormesis

00:36:15.120 and psychological hardiness,

00:36:16.740 they're like two sides to the same coin.

00:36:19.320 The hardy mind reframes stress as a challenge,

00:36:22.940 and the body uses stress as medicine.

00:36:25.320 So we actually,

00:36:27.220 because of exposure to small amounts of stressors,

00:36:30.540 and think of the obvious ones like exercise,

00:36:33.100 cold exposure,

00:36:34.040 heat exposure,

00:36:35.180 all three of these activate these stress response pathways.

00:36:39.880 And not just in humans,

00:36:41.840 in fruit flies,

00:36:42.880 in worms,

00:36:43.800 in cats,

00:36:44.480 in dogs,

00:36:45.180 in rodents,

00:36:46.080 all primates,

00:36:47.180 all respond to those stressors

00:36:49.460 and fasting as well

00:36:50.840 with an upregulation

00:36:52.700 of these stress response genes

00:36:54.720 that in humans

00:36:55.820 switch on at least 300 protective mechanisms.

00:37:00.740 So the goal here

00:37:02.060 is not to avoid stress,

00:37:04.060 but it's to dose it deliberately.

00:37:06.420 So there's a hermetic curve.

00:37:07.960 If you don't do anything,

00:37:09.660 it's bad for you.

00:37:11.020 You start to do some of these stressors,

00:37:12.980 it's good for you.

00:37:14.100 A bit more is better,

00:37:15.360 but there is an optimal point

00:37:17.340 where it starts to become

00:37:18.580 too much after that.

00:37:20.120 And so this is about

00:37:21.840 dosing it deliberately

00:37:23.120 and intermittently.

00:37:25.180 And the ancient Stoics,

00:37:26.500 they did it with cold baths and fasting.

00:37:29.280 And this is about stress inoculation.

00:37:32.340 It's about nature's physiological hardiness

00:37:36.040 because of exposure to stress

00:37:38.520 and appropriate recovery.

00:37:40.400 That's the key thing.

00:37:41.300 And it actually keeps us biologically young

00:37:43.720 and adaptable.

00:37:46.020 So in the book,

00:37:46.800 in the section about physiological hardiness,

00:37:50.140 physiological robustness,

00:37:52.080 you provide different forms

00:37:53.880 of hormetic stress,

00:37:55.840 stress that can be medicine for individuals.

00:37:58.280 One of the most potent ones is exercise.

00:38:00.860 And in that section,

00:38:01.800 you recommend that people focus

00:38:03.240 on two markers of fitness,

00:38:05.720 VO2 max and strength.

00:38:07.620 Why those two?

00:38:08.460 So yeah,

00:38:09.900 look,

00:38:10.060 they are really critical.

00:38:11.840 Just before I dive into that,

00:38:13.520 Sultan and Peterson,

00:38:14.540 two legendary exercise physiologists,

00:38:16.580 released a paper,

00:38:17.200 I think it was 2013.

00:38:18.940 Exercise prevents and or treats

00:38:20.960 26 common chronic diseases.

00:38:23.760 Like that is just crazy.

00:38:26.800 And you imagine if the pharmaceutical industry

00:38:28.600 produced a pill

00:38:29.600 that would simultaneously reduce your risk

00:38:31.680 of 26 chronic diseases.

00:38:34.380 And the reason is

00:38:35.880 that it releases

00:38:37.160 all of these myokines,

00:38:38.680 which are signaling molecules.

00:38:40.480 But to then,

00:38:41.480 to answer your question now,

00:38:42.840 so your VO2 max,

00:38:44.520 that's your maximum oxygen uptake.

00:38:47.040 How much oxygen

00:38:47.900 you can take in and use.

00:38:49.160 And it's the gold standard measure

00:38:50.700 of cardiorespiratory fitness.

00:38:52.620 And lots of your listeners

00:38:53.540 will have heard of it.

00:38:54.600 And if they have an Apple Watch

00:38:55.680 or a Garmin

00:38:56.360 or a Wootband

00:38:57.120 or an Oura Ring,

00:38:57.920 it'll actually estimate

00:38:59.320 their VO2 max.

00:39:00.220 And then you can look up tables

00:39:02.000 online to see where you are.

00:39:04.220 What we now know

00:39:05.500 is that your VO2 max

00:39:07.160 is the single biggest predictor

00:39:09.980 of how long you're going to live.

00:39:12.060 Way above everything else.

00:39:13.560 So there was a massive 2018 study

00:39:15.560 I talk about in my book

00:39:16.500 from the Cleveland Clinic

00:39:18.000 that followed over 120,000 people

00:39:20.720 who'd all done stress testing

00:39:23.220 on their heart

00:39:23.680 and had their VO2 max measured.

00:39:25.500 And they followed these guys.

00:39:26.840 They were in their 50s

00:39:27.680 or their 60s at the start

00:39:28.840 and they followed them

00:39:29.560 for 15 years.

00:39:30.720 And a bunch died

00:39:31.760 and a bunch obviously didn't.

00:39:33.600 And then they went back

00:39:34.540 and looked at the data

00:39:35.960 15 years ago

00:39:36.900 around their VO2 max.

00:39:38.580 And they found that VO2 max

00:39:40.100 was associated

00:39:41.240 with dramatically lower

00:39:43.120 all-cause mortality.

00:39:45.200 And there was no upper limit.

00:39:46.780 That meant that the fitter people got,

00:39:48.580 the longer they actually lived.

00:39:50.880 And it was way more predictive

00:39:52.940 of future death

00:39:54.560 than having heart disease

00:39:55.840 or diabetes

00:39:56.660 or high blood pressure

00:39:57.760 or any of those things.

00:39:59.740 So it is about training

00:40:01.520 for your VO2 max.

00:40:02.940 So how do you do it?

00:40:04.780 Well, first of all,

00:40:05.740 there's a bit of a base

00:40:06.880 of zone two training.

00:40:09.180 And your listeners

00:40:09.760 may have heard of this.

00:40:10.740 It's 60 to 70%

00:40:12.040 of your max heart rate.

00:40:13.580 Basically, you can talk,

00:40:14.760 but you can't sing.

00:40:15.820 Now that's a base,

00:40:17.080 but you can't just do zone two

00:40:18.820 and hope to improve

00:40:19.700 your VO2 max.

00:40:20.880 That will really help

00:40:22.020 your mitochondria.

00:40:22.940 The best way to build

00:40:24.800 your VO2 max

00:40:25.920 is the Norwegian

00:40:27.260 4x4 protocol.

00:40:29.020 So this is basically,

00:40:30.340 you do four minutes

00:40:32.380 of all-out exercise.

00:40:33.680 You can pick any piece

00:40:34.880 of equipment,

00:40:35.520 a rower,

00:40:36.200 a stepper,

00:40:36.860 a treadmill,

00:40:37.640 whatever,

00:40:37.980 or you can just be out running.

00:40:39.660 And you go as hard

00:40:40.680 as you can for four minutes

00:40:42.080 to the point that

00:40:43.140 at the end of those four minutes,

00:40:44.320 your heart rate

00:40:45.220 should be 95%

00:40:46.760 of your maximum.

00:40:47.540 That is like,

00:40:48.500 I'm almost dying.

00:40:50.260 And then you recover

00:40:51.520 for three minutes.

00:40:52.380 You just sort of turn

00:40:53.200 your legs over

00:40:53.840 for three minutes

00:40:54.560 and you do that four times.

00:40:56.120 That's the four-by-four protocol.

00:40:58.700 That is the single best way

00:41:00.740 to raise your VO2 max.

00:41:02.200 And you only need to do that

00:41:03.260 once a month.

00:41:04.600 That's key.

00:41:05.640 And then I think,

00:41:06.780 did you ask about the second one,

00:41:07.840 which was about strength training?

00:41:08.780 Strength.

00:41:09.040 Yeah, strength training.

00:41:09.780 Yeah, look,

00:41:10.300 I know you're a big fan

00:41:11.520 of strength training.

00:41:12.660 And the second biggest predictor

00:41:14.340 of how long you're going to live

00:41:15.560 is your muscle strength.

00:41:17.320 And it appears in the research

00:41:18.880 to be muscle strength,

00:41:20.360 not your muscle mass.

00:41:22.940 Stronger people live longer

00:41:24.960 and they stay independent for longer.

00:41:27.940 And it's because our muscles

00:41:29.100 aren't just for movement.

00:41:30.540 I mentioned it earlier.

00:41:31.760 They are endocrine organs.

00:41:33.780 Your muscle is an endocrine organ

00:41:35.440 that secretes these molecules

00:41:37.380 called myokines

00:41:38.560 that reduce our inflammation,

00:41:40.540 improve our brain health

00:41:41.480 and improve the health

00:41:42.600 of all of our different organs.

00:41:44.980 So really,

00:41:46.680 it is about using that muscle.

00:41:49.640 And we know that becoming stronger

00:41:52.000 is protective against sarcopenia.

00:41:55.200 That's that loss of muscle

00:41:57.140 and bone as you age.

00:41:59.400 And that,

00:42:00.080 if you become sarcopenic

00:42:01.460 in old age,

00:42:02.540 it actually dramatically

00:42:03.580 increases your risk

00:42:04.520 of pretty much

00:42:05.520 every chronic disease.

00:42:07.640 So I'm a big fan

00:42:09.060 that everybody

00:42:10.060 who's listening to this podcast

00:42:11.520 should be lifting heavy.

00:42:12.580 I don't care what sex they are,

00:42:14.220 what age they are.

00:42:15.000 In fact,

00:42:15.400 the older they are,

00:42:16.260 the more important it is

00:42:17.420 to lift heavy.

00:42:18.980 And a good program

00:42:20.640 if people don't do it

00:42:21.980 would be

00:42:23.160 just full body strength

00:42:24.680 training sessions.

00:42:25.760 Ideally,

00:42:26.380 three of those a week

00:42:27.480 focusing on compound movements,

00:42:30.220 right?

00:42:30.420 The big lifts

00:42:31.420 that use multi joints,

00:42:32.900 things like squats,

00:42:33.920 deadlifts,

00:42:35.000 presses,

00:42:35.640 pull-ups.

00:42:36.500 Plus also,

00:42:37.600 I think it's really important

00:42:38.560 to add in single leg work

00:42:40.380 like Bulgarian split squats

00:42:42.340 or lunges

00:42:43.140 because that stability

00:42:45.420 is really,

00:42:46.720 really important

00:42:47.360 especially as we age

00:42:48.640 and especially

00:42:49.480 if you get over 50

00:42:50.520 as well as single leg work

00:42:52.420 do some balance stuff

00:42:53.820 as well

00:42:54.400 because what we now know

00:42:55.680 is if you're in your 60s

00:42:57.240 and you fall over

00:42:58.120 and break a hip

00:42:59.040 or a pelvis,

00:43:00.160 you got a 50% chance

00:43:01.740 of being dead

00:43:02.400 within the next five years.

00:43:04.200 So the takeaway here

00:43:05.640 is simple.

00:43:06.860 You need to train your body

00:43:08.140 to be hard to kill.

00:43:10.120 Cardio makes you harder

00:43:11.740 to kill from the inside out

00:43:13.580 and strength makes you harder

00:43:15.360 to kill from the outside in

00:43:17.200 and together

00:43:18.160 is this physical foundation

00:43:19.920 of hardiness.

00:43:20.720 I think we need to do both.

00:43:22.740 Awesome.

00:43:22.920 So yeah,

00:43:23.200 strength train three times a week

00:43:24.440 and then get in some zone two cardio

00:43:26.100 and then a HIIT workout.

00:43:27.580 I get comfortable

00:43:28.160 with being uncomfortable

00:43:29.280 with the Norwegian four by four

00:43:31.140 and you can just look it up.

00:43:32.540 It's not pleasant

00:43:33.280 but it's useful.

00:43:34.160 I do it once a week.

00:43:37.140 So another hormetic stress

00:43:38.540 you talk about is light.

00:43:40.140 How is light a stressor?

00:43:42.900 So light is both,

00:43:44.100 as I said,

00:43:45.580 it's a hormetic stressor

00:43:46.580 so you don't get any of it

00:43:48.220 and it's really bad for you.

00:43:50.000 You get some,

00:43:50.680 it's good.

00:43:51.060 You get more,

00:43:51.560 it's better

00:43:51.900 but there is an optimal point

00:43:53.320 and everybody knows

00:43:54.120 with sunlight

00:43:54.680 that you could get too much sun

00:43:56.480 and that can cause skin cancer

00:43:58.120 but what most people don't realize

00:44:00.340 is that if you have low vitamin D

00:44:03.540 or even suboptimal vitamin D

00:44:05.540 which according to different agencies

00:44:08.020 between 70 and 80% of us globally

00:44:11.960 have suboptimal vitamin D,

00:44:14.420 if you have suboptimal vitamin D

00:44:16.580 it increases your risk

00:44:18.560 of pretty much every cancer

00:44:20.620 other than skin cancer.

00:44:22.820 Now if I take a step back

00:44:25.020 and talk about light in general,

00:44:27.180 we now know that light

00:44:29.140 is a signal to our body

00:44:31.120 and it triggers adaptation.

00:44:33.000 So morning sunlight

00:44:34.160 sets your circadian rhythm,

00:44:35.940 it boosts your serotonin,

00:44:37.160 it anchors your sleep-wake cycle

00:44:38.640 and without it

00:44:40.000 your hormones drift,

00:44:41.460 your sleep quality tanks

00:44:43.020 and even your metabolism suffers.

00:44:46.180 So as I said,

00:44:47.380 low vitamin D levels

00:44:48.380 are not just linked

00:44:49.440 to increased risk of cancer,

00:44:51.380 there is a significant increased risk

00:44:53.680 of cardiovascular disease,

00:44:55.440 a massive increased risk

00:44:56.720 of depression

00:44:57.340 and actually they're finding

00:44:58.520 increasing vitamin D

00:45:00.700 acts like an antidepressant.

00:45:02.820 People with low vitamin D

00:45:04.100 have immune dysfunction as well.

00:45:06.800 So I'm all about outcomes.

00:45:09.340 So it's about getting your blood tested

00:45:11.420 and you want your level to be,

00:45:14.540 if you're in the states,

00:45:15.700 40 to 60 nanograms per deciliter,

00:45:19.060 that's what you use.

00:45:20.240 Over here we use nanomoles per liter.

00:45:22.800 So it's between 100 and 150 nanomoles per liter

00:45:26.300 or if you live in the states,

00:45:27.600 40 to 60 nanograms per deciliter.

00:45:30.480 Now, the other thing is

00:45:31.820 you've got to look at your skin tone.

00:45:34.420 If your skin is darker

00:45:35.720 or you live further from the equator,

00:45:38.400 you're going to need to get

00:45:39.300 more sun exposure

00:45:40.500 than people with light skin

00:45:41.840 or who live closer to the equator.

00:45:44.420 And then when we get to red

00:45:47.360 and near infrared light,

00:45:48.960 that's when things get really spooky.

00:45:52.180 I mean, Einstein talked about quantum physics

00:45:54.560 as spooky action at a distance.

00:45:57.640 And we now know that light

00:45:59.920 has quantum effects on ourselves.

00:46:02.880 It's just ridiculous.

00:46:04.520 But rather than do a deep dive into that,

00:46:07.040 I want to talk about

00:46:07.980 how we use this therapeutically.

00:46:10.180 So red light and near infrared,

00:46:13.120 their wavelengths are between 620

00:46:15.560 and about 1,050 or more.

00:46:18.400 So red light,

00:46:19.660 which is that sort of 620 to 700-ish,

00:46:23.640 that has a massive effect on your skin.

00:46:26.400 It's great for healing.

00:46:27.800 It's great for inflammation.

00:46:29.080 It's great for eczema

00:46:30.300 and even childhood acne

00:46:32.920 and even in adults.

00:46:34.680 It has really good effects on our skin.

00:46:37.000 It's good for wound healing.

00:46:38.340 It's good for burns.

00:46:39.340 They now are treating burns victims

00:46:40.760 with red light straight away.

00:46:42.760 And then near infrared light,

00:46:45.280 which has a slightly longer wavelength,

00:46:47.220 it's kind of 820 to 1,050 nanometers,

00:46:50.340 that actually penetrates through your skin

00:46:53.740 and actually interacts with your mitochondria

00:46:57.680 and triggers the activation

00:46:59.340 of an enzyme called cytochrome C oxidase.

00:47:02.840 That's really important

00:47:04.160 for the electron transport chain.

00:47:06.040 And I don't want to get too geeky

00:47:07.220 in the physiology,

00:47:08.120 but basically near infrared light

00:47:10.860 stimulates your mitochondria

00:47:12.960 to produce more ATP,

00:47:15.080 the cellular energy.

00:47:16.200 And that's the fuel

00:47:17.600 for everything in your body.

00:47:19.480 And we know that having good,

00:47:22.120 efficient mitochondria

00:47:23.080 protects you against

00:47:24.380 a whole heap of physical diseases.

00:47:26.880 So really, this is about

00:47:29.000 driving the cellular agents of energy,

00:47:32.520 your mitochondria,

00:47:34.200 through that near infrared light.

00:47:36.520 And then, as I said,

00:47:37.200 the red light's good for your skin,

00:47:38.580 but also sunlight

00:47:40.220 is also therapy as well.

00:47:42.700 And then the darkness

00:47:44.440 is really, really important as well

00:47:46.640 for those circadian rhythms.

00:47:48.140 Like when you change

00:47:49.900 your sleep-wake cycle,

00:47:51.680 basically,

00:47:52.640 you mess with your circadian rhythms

00:47:54.480 and you mess with your biology.

00:47:56.700 Most people don't realize, Brett,

00:47:57.760 that your hormones run off

00:47:59.420 circadian rhythms

00:48:00.280 and lots of your cells do too.

00:48:02.500 So when you mess with your sleep cycles,

00:48:04.560 you're actually messing

00:48:05.400 with your biology.

00:48:06.820 How do you get red light

00:48:08.180 and near infrared light?

00:48:10.460 Yeah, so you can get panels

00:48:12.140 and masks and things like that.

00:48:13.760 So they're all available commercially.

00:48:16.340 And there's a range of expense

00:48:18.040 based on the size of them

00:48:19.440 and the power

00:48:20.100 and all of that sort of stuff.

00:48:21.860 I get mine direct from China

00:48:23.600 from a factory.

00:48:24.360 It's called Red Dot LED.

00:48:26.000 And it's a lot cheaper.

00:48:27.060 And they will make

00:48:27.900 a lot of the ones

00:48:29.060 that American brands

00:48:30.240 put their brand on

00:48:31.180 and double the price from it.

00:48:32.600 But I have a red

00:48:34.340 and near infrared light panel.

00:48:36.600 And I used it.

00:48:37.360 I had open heart surgery

00:48:38.340 at the start of this year

00:48:39.280 because I found I was born

00:48:40.760 with a dodgy aortic valve.

00:48:43.480 And I think that red light

00:48:45.040 and near infrared

00:48:45.780 massively helped my recovery.

00:48:48.580 So another stressor

00:48:49.740 you recommend,

00:48:50.320 a hormetic stressor,

00:48:51.340 is nature.

00:48:52.460 Typically, we think of nature as,

00:48:53.720 oh, it's relaxing

00:48:54.280 to be out in nature.

00:48:55.280 How is nature a stressor?

00:48:57.460 Well, it's kind of,

00:48:58.720 it's this balance of stress

00:49:00.260 and recovery

00:49:00.980 that's really key.

00:49:02.020 And nature definitely

00:49:03.560 falls up more

00:49:05.060 on the recovery side.

00:49:06.940 Now, there are,

00:49:07.640 obviously,

00:49:08.040 there's a bunch of challenges

00:49:09.360 out in nature,

00:49:10.240 temperature variation,

00:49:11.560 terrain, microbes,

00:49:12.660 all of these things

00:49:13.520 that can stimulate adaptation

00:49:15.240 and they strengthen

00:49:16.940 our immune

00:49:17.440 and our nervous system.

00:49:18.560 So we actually know

00:49:19.460 that when you spend time

00:49:20.560 in nature,

00:49:20.900 if you go walk

00:49:21.520 through the forest,

00:49:22.780 you actually pick up

00:49:24.100 some of the microbiome

00:49:25.560 from the forest.

00:49:26.780 Even walking beside the sea,

00:49:28.880 you'll pick up

00:49:29.520 some of the microbiome

00:49:30.660 in the sea.

00:49:31.160 And it actually

00:49:31.860 is good for us.

00:49:33.780 There's stimulation of it.

00:49:35.280 But then spending time

00:49:37.380 in nature

00:49:38.020 can be hugely relaxing

00:49:39.980 as well

00:49:40.680 and can give us

00:49:41.840 profound recovery.

00:49:43.180 The Japanese,

00:49:43.860 they call it

00:49:44.500 shinrin-yoku

00:49:45.920 or forest bathing

00:49:47.280 as some people

00:49:48.020 may have found.

00:49:49.200 And when I was researching

00:49:50.600 the book,

00:49:51.280 I couldn't believe

00:49:52.400 how many research studies

00:49:53.940 there were

00:49:54.420 around forest bathing.

00:49:56.260 And study after study

00:49:57.740 showing that spending

00:49:58.840 even 20 minutes

00:50:00.640 in nature

00:50:01.480 lowers your cortisol,

00:50:03.280 lowers your blood pressure,

00:50:04.500 lowers your heart rate,

00:50:05.960 and actually improves

00:50:07.260 immune cell activity.

00:50:09.620 And then we have

00:50:10.420 the microbiome connection

00:50:12.000 that I talked about.

00:50:13.120 So when you

00:50:14.360 or your kids,

00:50:15.120 they play in the dirt

00:50:16.160 or the garden

00:50:16.780 or you walk barefoot,

00:50:18.500 you're actually exposed

00:50:19.680 to the microbes

00:50:20.700 in the soil

00:50:21.400 and they interact

00:50:22.720 with the microbes

00:50:23.800 in your skin

00:50:24.600 and even in your gut.

00:50:26.560 And that helps us

00:50:27.980 to regulate

00:50:28.780 inflammation

00:50:29.600 and immune function.

00:50:30.640 So we know that

00:50:31.280 kids who live on farms,

00:50:32.740 adults who live on farms,

00:50:33.920 have got much more

00:50:35.020 diverse microbiomes

00:50:36.440 than people

00:50:36.940 who live in cities.

00:50:38.620 And this is linked

00:50:39.420 to something called

00:50:39.960 the hygiene hypothesis

00:50:41.260 that basically

00:50:42.760 our obsession

00:50:44.040 with cleaning

00:50:45.040 and disinfecting

00:50:46.040 everything

00:50:46.480 has actually

00:50:47.600 weakened our immune

00:50:48.840 systems

00:50:49.480 and increased rates

00:50:50.760 of autoimmune disorders

00:50:52.200 and allergies.

00:50:53.520 And interestingly,

00:50:54.600 a little tidbit

00:50:55.260 for your listeners, Brett.

00:50:56.740 I live in Melbourne

00:50:57.500 in Australia.

00:50:58.680 That has the highest

00:51:00.740 rate of allergies

00:51:02.000 anywhere in the world.

00:51:04.020 And you know

00:51:04.380 what they've linked it to?

00:51:06.180 Melbourne also

00:51:06.900 has the highest rate

00:51:07.960 of cesarean section birth

00:51:09.540 anywhere in the world.

00:51:11.160 And what we now know

00:51:12.540 is that being born

00:51:14.340 cesarean section

00:51:15.320 completely changes

00:51:16.480 the immune system

00:51:17.200 mostly through

00:51:18.080 the gut microbiome.

00:51:19.580 Having a natural birth

00:51:21.060 actually triggers

00:51:22.620 the activation

00:51:23.360 of the immune system.

00:51:25.580 So that time

00:51:27.300 in nature

00:51:27.840 is hugely important.

00:51:29.320 And then

00:51:29.680 there's this whole idea

00:51:31.300 of grounding

00:51:32.120 or earthing

00:51:32.780 which I used to think

00:51:34.160 was woo-woo.

00:51:35.700 But again,

00:51:36.660 looking into the research,

00:51:38.380 there's actually

00:51:38.860 a lot of physics

00:51:39.500 behind it

00:51:40.140 that basically

00:51:41.360 when your feet

00:51:42.620 or your body

00:51:43.300 is in contact

00:51:44.080 with the Earth's surfaces,

00:51:46.360 the electrons

00:51:47.320 on the Earth,

00:51:48.220 they have biological effects.

00:51:49.720 Now the research

00:51:50.600 is pretty early

00:51:51.180 but it's very,

00:51:52.220 very interesting.

00:51:53.500 And there is evidence,

00:51:55.040 increasing evidence

00:51:55.980 of improved sleep,

00:51:57.360 reduced inflammation

00:51:58.500 from grounding

00:51:59.900 or earthing

00:52:00.580 and probably

00:52:01.640 it's due to changes

00:52:02.620 in our autonomic

00:52:03.620 nervous system

00:52:04.300 and oxidative stress

00:52:06.100 as well.

00:52:06.520 So just getting out,

00:52:08.740 spending some time

00:52:09.520 walking,

00:52:10.220 getting your feet,

00:52:11.520 your bare feet

00:52:12.380 on the surfaces

00:52:13.460 of the Earth,

00:52:14.260 grass,

00:52:14.780 sand,

00:52:15.260 rock,

00:52:15.620 whatever,

00:52:16.700 actually reconnects

00:52:18.120 us to the world

00:52:18.900 and resets

00:52:20.040 our electric charge.

00:52:21.780 It's pretty bonkers

00:52:23.120 but it is real.

00:52:25.460 Yeah,

00:52:25.600 and one prescription

00:52:26.600 you give people

00:52:27.460 to get more time outdoors

00:52:28.660 is following

00:52:29.360 the nature pyramid.

00:52:30.360 We've written about this

00:52:31.160 on the website.

00:52:32.260 It's really cool.

00:52:33.020 So it's the 25-3 rule.

00:52:36.220 So you want to get

00:52:37.100 20 minutes

00:52:37.840 in green space

00:52:38.700 three times a week,

00:52:39.840 five hours

00:52:40.700 in a semi-wild environment

00:52:42.180 once a month

00:52:42.960 and then three days

00:52:44.440 completely off-grid

00:52:45.400 annually.

00:52:46.440 So that's like

00:52:46.940 a camp out or something.

00:52:48.420 And that'll give you

00:52:49.320 enough nature

00:52:49.880 that you need

00:52:50.540 for overall health

00:52:52.020 and well-being.

00:52:52.920 Yeah,

00:52:53.100 I love that.

00:52:53.680 I love the stuff

00:52:54.460 that's just simple

00:52:55.460 that people can go,

00:52:56.820 yeah,

00:52:57.020 you know what?

00:52:57.560 I can do that.

00:52:58.540 And I tell you what,

00:52:59.120 if you do that 25-3 prescription,

00:53:01.460 you will notice

00:53:02.520 a significant effect.

00:53:04.040 Going back to that balance

00:53:05.100 between stress

00:53:05.840 and recovery,

00:53:06.760 you talk in the book

00:53:07.480 about nutrition

00:53:08.140 and you focus

00:53:09.180 on a few things

00:53:10.000 that are essential

00:53:10.960 for health and strength.

00:53:12.100 You talk about

00:53:12.760 avoiding ultra-processed foods,

00:53:14.800 which is something

00:53:15.320 we discussed

00:53:16.100 the last time

00:53:16.820 you were on the show.

00:53:17.840 You talk about protein,

00:53:19.360 you know,

00:53:19.500 how essential protein is.

00:53:20.700 You know,

00:53:20.800 people should aim

00:53:21.420 to get

00:53:21.900 at least 0.7 grams

00:53:23.820 per pound of body weight.

00:53:25.300 It's often better

00:53:25.880 to get more,

00:53:26.740 you know,

00:53:26.840 get a gram

00:53:27.560 per pound of body weight.

00:53:29.460 And then you talk

00:53:30.280 about the importance

00:53:31.240 of omega-3 fatty acids.

00:53:33.780 What are omega-3s

00:53:35.160 and why are they

00:53:35.920 so important

00:53:36.520 for hearty health?

00:53:38.100 These are,

00:53:38.580 they're essential

00:53:39.140 and they are structural fats

00:53:41.260 for your brain

00:53:41.980 and they are also

00:53:43.880 very potent

00:53:45.360 anti-inflammatories

00:53:46.420 for your body.

00:53:47.100 And I really

00:53:48.640 encourage people

00:53:49.720 to get their

00:53:50.740 omega-3 index

00:53:52.440 tested.

00:53:53.160 You can do this

00:53:54.060 at

00:53:54.720 omegaquant,

00:53:55.860 q-a-n-t dot com.

00:53:57.640 I've got no association

00:53:58.500 with these guys whatsoever.

00:53:59.620 They just do

00:54:00.180 brilliant testing.

00:54:01.440 So they'll give you

00:54:01.960 an omega-3 index

00:54:03.200 or an omega-3 score.

00:54:04.700 It's the amount

00:54:05.420 of omega-3s

00:54:06.400 and percentage

00:54:07.160 of those fats

00:54:07.880 in your rare blood cells.

00:54:10.180 And what we now know

00:54:11.480 is that if

00:54:12.120 people with the score

00:54:13.560 of 8%,

00:54:14.900 they live about

00:54:15.880 five years longer

00:54:17.580 than those

00:54:18.600 who score

00:54:19.120 around 5%.

00:54:20.540 Like,

00:54:21.400 you show me

00:54:22.300 some one thing

00:54:23.620 in nutrition

00:54:24.500 that can extend

00:54:26.420 lifespan by five years,

00:54:28.240 I don't think

00:54:28.840 there's anything

00:54:29.320 other than

00:54:29.720 omega-3 fatty acids.

00:54:31.180 And what we now know

00:54:32.240 is that the Japanese

00:54:33.160 on average,

00:54:34.560 their omega-3 index

00:54:35.620 is about 8%,

00:54:36.820 Americans is about 5%,

00:54:38.700 and the Japanese

00:54:39.620 live five years longer

00:54:40.660 than the Americans.

00:54:42.140 So we really need

00:54:43.720 to increase

00:54:44.500 our omega-3 index.

00:54:46.300 And we can get there

00:54:47.460 if you eat lots of fish,

00:54:49.180 that's why the Japanese

00:54:50.000 have it,

00:54:50.680 particularly fatty fish,

00:54:52.000 salmon, sardines,

00:54:53.020 anchovies,

00:54:54.080 but a lot of people

00:54:55.060 will have to be supplemented.

00:54:56.200 And if you're not eating fish

00:54:57.200 three or four times

00:54:58.140 a week or more,

00:54:59.540 you really got to supplement.

00:55:00.960 And about two grams

00:55:02.060 of high-quality fish oil

00:55:03.460 or if you're plant-based

00:55:04.680 algal oil,

00:55:05.860 the stuff,

00:55:06.300 algae,

00:55:06.720 the stuff that the fish feed on,

00:55:07.920 that is actually

00:55:08.520 a really good way

00:55:09.260 to reach your

00:55:09.980 omega-3 fatty acids

00:55:11.020 as well.

00:55:11.960 And I think,

00:55:12.620 as well as minimizing

00:55:13.640 ultra-processed

00:55:14.500 foods,

00:55:15.220 they are the two

00:55:16.440 most powerful

00:55:17.080 nutritional interventions

00:55:18.140 you can do.

00:55:19.280 Yeah,

00:55:19.580 something I've been doing

00:55:20.200 lately for the past

00:55:21.520 couple months is

00:55:22.540 I've started eating

00:55:23.280 anchovies and sardines.

00:55:24.500 As a kid,

00:55:25.100 I was like,

00:55:25.620 that's gross.

00:55:27.100 Never,

00:55:27.600 that's what grandpas eat.

00:55:29.240 Yes.

00:55:29.900 But then Michael Easter,

00:55:31.340 he had an article

00:55:31.880 on a sub-stack about

00:55:33.040 you need to eat

00:55:33.700 more small fish.

00:55:34.980 I was like,

00:55:35.380 okay.

00:55:35.940 So I went to Whole Foods

00:55:37.140 and bought some cans

00:55:38.620 of sardines and anchovies

00:55:39.660 and they're not bad.

00:55:40.660 They taste like tuna fish.

00:55:42.300 Anchovies are a little salty,

00:55:43.380 but I try to get

00:55:44.540 like two to three

00:55:45.520 of those a week.

00:55:46.840 And it's easy

00:55:47.840 and it's cheap.

00:55:48.400 It's not that expensive.

00:55:49.960 Yeah,

00:55:50.080 that's right.

00:55:50.520 And I'm a fan

00:55:51.460 of eating anchovies

00:55:52.160 and I think it's useful

00:55:53.180 to explain to people

00:55:54.060 why small fish.

00:55:55.640 Small fish don't live

00:55:56.640 as long.

00:55:57.140 The big fish,

00:55:57.940 particularly big fish

00:55:59.260 like tuna,

00:56:00.400 you'll find that

00:56:01.180 they tend to have

00:56:02.160 more heavy metals

00:56:03.120 in them,

00:56:03.480 more mercury

00:56:04.000 because they eat

00:56:04.620 lots of small fish.

00:56:05.880 So having the small fish

00:56:07.020 like sardines

00:56:07.680 and anchovies

00:56:08.340 is a really good way

00:56:09.600 to do it.

00:56:10.600 So you wrap up the book

00:56:11.520 Revisiting the Myth of Hercules

00:56:12.940 and you frame

00:56:13.940 your recommendations

00:56:14.740 using Hercules'

00:56:16.660 mythical 12 labors.

00:56:18.420 And they're kind of

00:56:19.060 a summary

00:56:19.600 of the principles

00:56:20.640 we discussed.

00:56:21.660 So let's end there.

00:56:22.760 What are the

00:56:23.640 Herculean labors

00:56:24.620 a modern person

00:56:25.700 should undertake

00:56:26.460 to live a life

00:56:27.820 of erite?

00:56:28.840 Yeah,

00:56:29.440 look,

00:56:29.760 the first one

00:56:30.600 I think is

00:56:31.260 overarching

00:56:31.940 and it's actually

00:56:33.640 forging the hardiness

00:56:35.140 mindset.

00:56:35.680 This is that

00:56:36.600 actually choosing

00:56:38.320 to see

00:56:39.060 change

00:56:40.240 and adversity

00:56:41.460 as opportunity

00:56:42.740 for growth

00:56:43.700 just as Hercules did.

00:56:46.080 And then it's,

00:56:47.060 you know,

00:56:47.460 embrace life's challenges.

00:56:49.200 And I love this idea

00:56:50.360 that the Stoics

00:56:51.040 talked about.

00:56:52.440 Life is a contest.

00:56:54.220 The Olympic Games

00:56:55.340 are upon us.

00:56:56.740 And I think we need

00:56:57.620 to view life

00:56:58.580 as a contest

00:56:59.280 and actually get

00:57:00.640 into the contest

00:57:01.880 with passion

00:57:02.900 and view

00:57:04.480 all of these challenges

00:57:05.820 as little tests

00:57:07.360 of your character

00:57:08.180 and wake up every day

00:57:09.420 and go,

00:57:10.260 you know what?

00:57:10.740 I'm ready for the contest.

00:57:12.440 I think that's really key.

00:57:14.340 Then it's,

00:57:15.020 you know,

00:57:15.420 focus on the stuff

00:57:16.240 that you can control.

00:57:17.460 Don't invest your energy

00:57:18.560 in the stuff you can't.

00:57:20.400 You know,

00:57:20.660 get committed to life.

00:57:22.220 Be fully engaged

00:57:23.580 in life.

00:57:24.540 You know,

00:57:24.880 I get people

00:57:25.560 to look at their screen time

00:57:26.860 and, you know,

00:57:28.000 if you're spending

00:57:29.280 three hours

00:57:30.780 or four hours

00:57:31.660 of your life

00:57:32.160 on screens,

00:57:33.080 extrapolate it

00:57:33.940 over your lifetime,

00:57:35.380 that's like

00:57:35.900 10 to 15 years

00:57:37.600 of your life

00:57:38.280 with your head

00:57:38.820 buried in a screen.

00:57:40.260 So it's,

00:57:40.800 for me,

00:57:41.100 it's about choosing

00:57:42.200 to engage

00:57:43.340 fully in life.

00:57:44.700 And then the other thing

00:57:45.840 about connection,

00:57:46.960 you know,

00:57:47.300 having meaningful

00:57:48.560 face-to-face

00:57:49.400 interactions

00:57:50.180 with friends.

00:57:51.280 And then the rest

00:57:52.600 of it is really

00:57:53.300 about that

00:57:53.940 physiological hardiness

00:57:56.060 is actually

00:57:57.660 engaging

00:57:58.920 in these deliberate

00:57:59.980 stressors

00:58:00.880 of exercise,

00:58:02.080 of hate,

00:58:02.720 of cold exposure,

00:58:03.940 of nourishing

00:58:05.200 your body

00:58:05.760 when you're eating,

00:58:06.920 of exposing

00:58:07.900 yourself to

00:58:08.600 beneficial light,

00:58:09.900 and then making

00:58:10.660 sure that you

00:58:11.580 recover.

00:58:12.580 But the key

00:58:13.040 for me,

00:58:13.420 Brett,

00:58:13.580 I think the last

00:58:14.540 thing that I'd

00:58:15.460 like to impart

00:58:16.660 to your listeners

00:58:17.260 is that,

00:58:18.700 you know,

00:58:19.180 recently scientists

00:58:20.100 have roughly

00:58:21.000 estimated

00:58:21.720 our chances

00:58:22.940 of ever having

00:58:23.640 being born.

00:58:24.860 And they reckon

00:58:25.600 it's about

00:58:26.200 one in 400

00:58:27.200 trillion.

00:58:28.260 And if you think

00:58:28.740 about it,

00:58:29.100 all of your

00:58:29.700 ancestors,

00:58:30.380 way back

00:58:31.100 to your

00:58:31.720 homo

00:58:32.580 habilis,

00:58:33.360 homo erectus

00:58:34.280 ancestors,

00:58:34.840 they all had

00:58:35.720 to survive

00:58:36.640 in order for

00:58:37.920 you to be

00:58:38.480 alive.

00:58:39.160 You know,

00:58:39.360 somebody probably

00:58:40.100 survived the

00:58:40.900 plague in

00:58:41.700 England,

00:58:42.400 one of your

00:58:42.840 ancestors.

00:58:43.540 Somebody probably

00:58:44.180 survived just

00:58:45.500 World War I or

00:58:46.260 World War II.

00:58:46.940 But this is the

00:58:47.660 thing,

00:58:48.560 is waking up

00:58:49.700 every day

00:58:50.400 and going,

00:58:51.840 I have won

00:58:52.560 the greatest

00:58:53.540 lottery

00:58:54.260 ever.

00:58:55.240 I've had a

00:58:55.720 one in 400

00:58:56.480 trillion chance

00:58:57.620 of being alive.

00:58:59.440 Let's not

00:59:00.100 waste it.

00:59:00.980 And let's

00:59:01.820 embrace the

00:59:03.020 contest.

00:59:03.860 I think that's

00:59:04.460 the key thing.

00:59:05.700 Well,

00:59:05.740 Paul,

00:59:05.960 this has been a

00:59:06.300 great conversation.

00:59:07.220 Where can people

00:59:07.600 go to learn more

00:59:08.220 about the book

00:59:08.700 and your work?

00:59:09.860 So the best

00:59:10.740 place to go

00:59:11.820 would be my

00:59:12.420 website,

00:59:13.040 which is

00:59:13.360 paultaylor.biz

00:59:14.520 and the book,

00:59:15.500 you can get it

00:59:16.120 there.

00:59:16.380 You can also

00:59:16.820 get the book

00:59:17.380 on Amazon

00:59:18.180 and also

00:59:19.220 my podcast,

00:59:20.700 which is

00:59:21.080 the Hardiness

00:59:21.780 podcast.

00:59:22.560 I think if

00:59:22.940 you're interested

00:59:23.720 in this,

00:59:24.560 there's going

00:59:24.860 to be a big

00:59:25.440 deep dive on

00:59:26.260 hardiness in

00:59:26.940 that podcast.

00:59:27.940 Fantastic.

00:59:28.160 Well,

00:59:28.340 Paul Taylor,

00:59:28.840 thanks for

00:59:29.040 your time.

00:59:29.180 It's been a

00:59:29.420 pleasure.

00:59:30.700 Thank you for

00:59:31.220 having me on

00:59:31.620 again,

00:59:31.960 Brett,

00:59:32.240 and I love

00:59:32.940 your work.

00:59:33.760 Absolutely love

00:59:34.380 it.

00:59:34.640 Thank you so

00:59:34.980 much.

00:59:36.400 My guest

00:59:36.820 here is Dr.

00:59:37.240 Paul Taylor.

00:59:37.780 He's the

00:59:38.100 author of the

00:59:38.540 book,

00:59:38.780 The Hardiness

00:59:39.260 Effect.

00:59:39.680 It's available

00:59:40.000 on Amazon.com

00:59:40.920 and bookstores

00:59:41.320 everywhere.

00:59:42.060 You can find

00:59:42.320 more information

00:59:42.740 about his

00:59:42.980 work at his

00:59:43.420 website,

00:59:43.920 paultaylor.biz.

00:59:45.520 Also,

00:59:45.900 check out our

00:59:46.240 show notes at

00:59:46.600 awm.is

00:59:47.440 slash hardiness

00:59:48.180 where you can

00:59:48.480 find links to

00:59:48.900 resources where

00:59:49.500 we delve deeper

00:59:50.000 into this topic.

00:59:58.160 Well,

00:59:58.680 that wraps up

00:59:59.260 another edition

00:59:59.920 of the AOM

01:00:00.420 podcast.

01:00:01.020 Make sure to

01:00:01.420 check out our

01:00:01.740 website at

01:00:02.160 artofmanless.com

01:00:03.060 where you can

01:00:03.220 find our

01:00:03.480 podcast archives

01:00:04.300 and check out

01:00:05.000 our new

01:00:05.280 newsletter.

01:00:05.880 It's called

01:00:06.160 Dying Breed.

01:00:07.120 You can sign up

01:00:07.520 at dyingbreed.net.

01:00:08.620 It's a great way

01:00:09.260 to support the

01:00:09.660 show directly.

01:00:10.680 As always,

01:00:11.620 thank you for the

01:00:12.040 continued support.

01:00:12.640 Until next time,

01:00:13.120 it's Brett McKay.

01:00:14.040 Remind you to

01:00:14.440 listen to anyone

01:00:14.880 podcast,

01:00:15.600 but put what

01:00:16.220 you've heard

01:00:16.580 into action.

01:00:34.680 Hey,

01:00:35.140 before we go,

01:00:35.620 I've got one more

01:00:36.140 episode for you to

01:00:36.800 check out on the

01:00:37.420 art of manliness.

01:00:38.260 I talked to Alex

01:00:39.040 Petkus about

01:00:39.720 Plutarch's lives and

01:00:41.380 why this ancient

01:00:42.020 collection of

01:00:42.540 biographies has

01:00:43.320 shaped leaders for

01:00:44.080 centuries and how

01:00:45.100 Plutarch can still

01:00:45.880 sharpen your sense

01:00:46.520 of virtue,

01:00:47.600 judgment,

01:00:48.060 and character today.

01:00:49.220 It's timeless stuff

01:00:50.340 and a great entry

01:00:51.320 point into the

01:00:52.140 works of Plutarch.

01:00:53.580 Check it out at

01:00:54.260 aom.is

01:00:55.200 slash Plutarch.

01:00:56.320 That's aom.is

01:00:57.480 slash Plutarch.

The Art of Manliness - November 04, 2025

Hercules at the Crossroads — Choosing the Hard Path That Leads to a Good Life

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