The Art of Manliness - How the World Wars Shaped J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis

00:00:00.000 So earlier this year, Kate and I started a substack.

00:00:02.160 It's called Dying Breed.

00:00:03.440 It's a place where we can write about things

00:00:04.720 that wouldn't be a good fit for art of manliness,

00:00:07.160 but we wanted to write about and share anyway.

00:00:09.460 Each week, we publish two articles there.

00:00:11.680 First, there's Kate's wonderful Short Sunday Firesides.

00:00:15.000 It's a great way to start your week off

00:00:16.420 with some reflection.

00:00:17.620 And then we have a longer form article

00:00:18.820 that explores topics like luck, success, media theory,

00:00:22.820 the intersection between technology and life,

00:00:24.620 how to use technology in a meaningful way.

00:00:26.700 When you subscribe, you get access

00:00:27.780 to over 300 articles in the archive,

00:00:29.160 including all of Kate's Sunday Firesides,

00:00:31.340 plus articles like 20 Lessons from 20 Years of Marriage,

00:00:33.960 co-written by Kate and I,

00:00:35.400 what Kierkegaard can tell us why professional sports

00:00:37.440 and life can seem so boring.

00:00:39.340 We have articles on luck,

00:00:40.720 what philosophers think about luck,

00:00:42.560 a tour of our home office, and a lot, lot more.

00:00:45.560 Plus, when you subscribe, you can comment

00:00:46.920 and connect directly with Kate and I

00:00:48.400 and other Dying Breed readers.

00:00:50.140 It's just $5 a month or $50 a year,

00:00:52.820 and your subscription is a great way

00:00:54.220 to support the work we do at Art of Manliness.

00:00:56.360 We'd love to see you there on Dying Breed.

00:00:57.920 Head to dyingbreed.net and become a member today.

00:01:01.280 That's dyingbreed.net.

00:01:03.220 Thanks so much for your continued support.

00:01:04.580 We really appreciate you.

00:01:13.240 Brett McKay here,

00:01:14.260 and welcome to another edition

00:01:15.240 of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:01:17.500 When people think of J.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis,

00:01:20.280 they often picture Tweety Oxford professors

00:01:22.040 and beloved fantasy authors.

00:01:23.720 But their writing wasn't drawn

00:01:25.080 only from their bucolic days teaching at Oxford

00:01:27.060 and walking in the English countryside.

00:01:28.940 It had a darker, deeper backdrop.

00:01:31.280 The trenches of World War I

00:01:32.500 and the cataclysm of World War II.

00:01:35.040 Lewis and Tolkien weren't just fantasy writers.

00:01:36.980 They were war veterans, cultural critics,

00:01:39.180 and men with firsthand knowledge of evil,

00:01:41.240 heroism, and sacrifice.

00:01:42.820 In today's episode,

00:01:43.680 I'm joined by Joseph LeConte,

00:01:45.440 returning to the show to discuss his latest book,

00:01:47.420 The War for Middle Earth.

00:01:48.620 We explore how both World Wars

00:01:49.960 shaped the perspectives of Tolkien and Lewis,

00:01:51.960 found their way into works like

00:01:53.160 The Lord of the Rings and The Chronicles of Narnia,

00:01:55.340 and infuse their literary masterpieces

00:01:56.940 with moral weight, spiritual depth,

00:01:59.460 and timeless themes of resistance,

00:02:01.180 friendship, and redemption.

00:02:02.780 We also talk about the legendary friendship

00:02:04.160 between Tolkien and Lewis,

00:02:05.560 the creation of the Inklings,

00:02:06.840 and how the men demonstrated

00:02:07.780 the countercultural power

00:02:08.800 of imaginative storytelling.

00:02:10.800 After the show's over,

00:02:11.540 check out our show notes

00:02:12.180 at aom.is slash warformiddleearth.

00:02:14.460 All right, Joseph LeConte,

00:02:29.920 welcome back to the show.

00:02:31.300 Brett, it's great to be with you.

00:02:32.600 Thanks so much for having me.

00:02:33.520 So you got a new book out

00:02:34.380 called The War for Middle Earth,

00:02:36.280 and this is where you explore

00:02:37.720 how both World War I and World War II

00:02:41.400 shaped the writing of J.R.R. Tolkien

00:02:44.620 and C.S. Lewis.

00:02:46.280 Why did you decide to do a deep dive

00:02:47.900 into how these wars affected these guys?

00:02:50.720 Yeah, I think particularly

00:02:51.880 the Second World War,

00:02:53.260 as I began reading more

00:02:54.480 and researching more,

00:02:55.680 it became obvious, Brett,

00:02:57.060 that the real action

00:02:58.420 is the Second World War.

00:03:00.360 Both men were affected profoundly

00:03:01.860 by World War I.

00:03:03.000 Impossible not to be affected

00:03:04.380 if you fought it.

00:03:05.180 Both those men did,

00:03:06.100 and they survived.

00:03:07.180 It was a traumatic experience for both,

00:03:08.860 and I think it helped

00:03:10.180 to shape their imaginations.

00:03:11.500 But the Second World War

00:03:12.800 is where the action is

00:03:14.300 because now they are living

00:03:16.420 through a cataclysmic event.

00:03:18.620 It's an existential crisis

00:03:20.000 for Great Britain

00:03:20.840 from 1939 to about 1945, really.

00:03:24.820 And that's when they're writing

00:03:25.900 their most important works,

00:03:27.220 the works that we associate

00:03:28.240 with these men,

00:03:29.300 The Lord of the Rings,

00:03:30.500 The Screwtape Letters,

00:03:31.880 The Great Divorce,

00:03:33.120 and then the idea

00:03:34.000 for the Chronicles of Narnia.

00:03:35.140 All that is going on

00:03:36.380 in those nightmare years

00:03:37.780 between 1939 and 1945.

00:03:40.140 All right, so to understand

00:03:41.040 these works,

00:03:41.540 you have to understand

00:03:42.160 World War II.

00:03:43.420 That's exactly right.

00:03:44.540 And you have to understand,

00:03:45.440 I think, Brett,

00:03:45.900 is also from the British perspective,

00:03:47.980 not the American perspective,

00:03:49.960 because as my British friends

00:03:51.040 like to remind me,

00:03:51.920 we showed up late to that war.

00:03:54.460 Yeah, and they were,

00:03:55.300 I mean, they saw it firsthand

00:03:56.820 during the Blitz,

00:03:57.880 just getting bombed

00:03:58.760 day in and day out.

00:04:00.020 It was brutal.

00:04:01.960 Think about it, Brett.

00:04:03.000 Let's just take

00:04:03.620 the London Blitz for a second.

00:04:05.280 76 consecutive nights,

00:04:07.100 save one.

00:04:07.780 of aerial bombardment

00:04:09.560 on the city of London.

00:04:11.040 And within a few days,

00:04:12.960 it's millions,

00:04:14.220 literally millions of people,

00:04:16.300 women and children,

00:04:17.020 mostly evacuated from London

00:04:18.500 into the countryside.

00:04:20.160 And this is the way

00:04:20.940 that C.S. Lewis gets the idea

00:04:22.500 for the Chronicles of Narnia.

00:04:24.380 Think about how it starts,

00:04:25.780 about children sent away

00:04:27.380 because of the air raids

00:04:29.120 into an old house

00:04:31.620 with an old professor

00:04:32.800 out in the countryside.

00:04:34.000 He writes in the opening lines

00:04:35.360 to the Chronicles of Narnia

00:04:36.960 in 1939.

00:04:38.880 So the war becomes a spark

00:04:40.960 for their imagination.

00:04:42.980 Well, you mentioned World War I

00:04:44.320 had a big impact on them

00:04:45.740 and their experience

00:04:47.020 in World War I

00:04:47.740 carried over

00:04:48.600 to their experience

00:04:49.840 of World War II.

00:04:51.140 Both of these men

00:04:52.100 fought in World War I.

00:04:53.220 What were their respective

00:04:54.080 experiences like?

00:04:55.720 Yeah.

00:04:56.320 Both of them served

00:04:57.260 as a second lieutenant

00:04:58.400 in the British Expeditionary Force.

00:05:00.340 They served in France.

00:05:01.700 Tolkien was sent

00:05:02.520 to the Somme in 1916.

00:05:04.700 And the opening day,

00:05:06.140 the Battle of July 1st, 1916,

00:05:08.300 is still the single bloodiest day

00:05:10.300 in British military history.

00:05:12.380 Nearly 20,000 soldiers killed

00:05:14.620 on the opening day.

00:05:16.260 Tolkien will arrive

00:05:17.140 a few days later.

00:05:18.420 But the Battle of the Somme

00:05:19.380 will rage on for months.

00:05:20.760 And he lost most of his

00:05:21.900 closest friends in that war,

00:05:23.680 as did C.S. Lewis,

00:05:25.740 who arrives on the

00:05:27.000 Western Front in France

00:05:27.820 on his 19th birthday.

00:05:29.480 You know,

00:05:29.640 happy birthday, C.S. Lewis.

00:05:31.260 And here you are

00:05:32.200 with bullets flying.

00:05:33.920 A mortar shell will go off

00:05:35.600 close to Lewis.

00:05:36.800 It obliterates his sergeant.

00:05:39.080 And fragments of it

00:05:40.380 strike him in the chest,

00:05:41.760 the hand.

00:05:42.340 He thinks he's going to die.

00:05:43.940 And so it's a profoundly

00:05:45.160 difficult,

00:05:47.040 grief-stricken moment

00:05:48.700 for both of these men.

00:05:50.100 And there's no question

00:05:51.320 in my mind

00:05:51.800 that you carry

00:05:52.640 not just a physical

00:05:53.580 wounds of physical scars,

00:05:55.200 but the emotional scars

00:05:56.160 of that

00:05:56.560 into your adult life.

00:05:58.440 Are there any instances

00:05:59.180 in their later writings

00:06:00.500 where you can see

00:06:02.200 the influence

00:06:02.980 of their experience

00:06:03.880 in World War I

00:06:04.720 show up?

00:06:05.640 Yeah, I think,

00:06:06.780 and other authors

00:06:07.600 have looked into this.

00:06:08.820 John Garth, for example,

00:06:09.940 who's written

00:06:10.420 a wonderful book

00:06:11.140 on Tolkien

00:06:12.280 and the Great War

00:06:13.100 on World War I.

00:06:14.420 Let me read you

00:06:14.980 a few lines

00:06:15.500 just from The Hobbit here,

00:06:16.840 Brett,

00:06:17.400 which Tolkien published

00:06:18.440 in 1937.

00:06:19.640 He wrote The Hobbit

00:06:20.680 in 1933,

00:06:21.720 publishes it in 1937.

00:06:22.720 Here's a few lines.

00:06:23.440 He's describing

00:06:24.080 the goblins.

00:06:25.720 The goblins are cruel,

00:06:27.160 wicked, bad-hearted.

00:06:28.400 They make no beautiful things,

00:06:29.700 but they make many clever ones.

00:06:31.400 Hammers, axes, swords, daggers,

00:06:33.480 pickaxes, tongs,

00:06:34.440 they make very well.

00:06:35.560 It is not unlikely

00:06:36.680 that they invented

00:06:37.900 some of the machines

00:06:39.020 that have since

00:06:40.180 troubled the world,

00:06:41.660 especially the ingenious devices

00:06:43.620 for killing large numbers

00:06:45.480 of people at once

00:06:46.900 for wheels and engines

00:06:49.020 and explosions

00:06:50.080 always delighted them.

00:06:52.180 What does that sound like?

00:06:54.300 It sounds like

00:06:55.420 the diary

00:06:56.680 of a guy

00:06:57.560 who served

00:06:58.280 in the mechanized slaughter

00:06:59.640 of the First World War,

00:07:00.700 doesn't it?

00:07:01.240 Yeah.

00:07:01.620 And you also see it,

00:07:02.840 the influence of World War I

00:07:03.760 in Tolkien's writing,

00:07:04.820 the way he describes

00:07:06.240 like Mordor.

00:07:07.800 Yes.

00:07:08.120 Mordor is just sort of

00:07:08.800 this desolate,

00:07:10.420 hot,

00:07:11.240 gray,

00:07:12.420 ugly place.

00:07:13.880 Yes.

00:07:14.060 And during World War I,

00:07:15.340 that's what a lot of Europe

00:07:16.540 looked like.

00:07:17.620 Yes.

00:07:17.880 And he says explicitly

00:07:19.020 in a couple of places

00:07:20.720 in his letters

00:07:21.380 that the advance to Mordor

00:07:24.000 with Frodo and Sam,

00:07:25.940 when they go into

00:07:26.800 the dead marshes

00:07:27.900 and the line from Sam is,

00:07:30.460 you know,

00:07:30.820 there are dead things,

00:07:32.260 dead things in the water.

00:07:34.120 And Martin Gilbert,

00:07:35.600 who wrote one of the

00:07:36.560 definitive books

00:07:37.280 on the Somme,

00:07:38.200 the Battle of the Somme,

00:07:39.040 says,

00:07:39.460 Tolkien is describing

00:07:40.460 exactly what a soldier

00:07:42.100 would have experienced

00:07:42.980 in the Somme

00:07:43.960 with these craters

00:07:45.040 created by the mortars

00:07:46.500 filling up with water.

00:07:48.160 Men, soldiers,

00:07:48.920 would slip into them,

00:07:50.080 die,

00:07:50.620 and they'd be there

00:07:51.340 for days or weeks on end.

00:07:52.580 So it's a vivid,

00:07:53.840 explicit memory

00:07:54.660 from the First World War.

00:07:56.540 And what about Lewis?

00:07:57.480 Because he's known

00:07:58.020 for his Christian apologetics,

00:07:59.580 but it seems like

00:08:00.360 World War I

00:08:00.960 kind of entrenched

00:08:02.500 his atheism

00:08:03.600 that he had then.

00:08:04.760 Yeah.

00:08:05.260 I mean,

00:08:05.560 think about the poetry

00:08:06.760 he's writing

00:08:07.560 in 1917,

00:08:09.140 18,

00:08:09.540 19,

00:08:10.280 his book of poems.

00:08:11.500 This is an atheist

00:08:12.380 raging against

00:08:13.500 what seems to be

00:08:14.640 an unjust universe.

00:08:16.780 And if there is a God,

00:08:17.800 he's a sadist.

00:08:18.980 You know,

00:08:19.120 let us curse our master

00:08:20.360 ere we die.

00:08:21.460 The good is dead.

00:08:23.080 I mean,

00:08:23.680 it's pretty grim stuff.

00:08:24.940 I think it does deepen

00:08:25.800 his atheism,

00:08:26.540 but at the same time,

00:08:27.740 I think it helps

00:08:28.640 to launch him

00:08:29.460 on a spiritual quest

00:08:31.080 because he'll begin

00:08:32.280 to figure out

00:08:33.220 that his materialism

00:08:34.520 is unsatisfying

00:08:36.240 because Lewis

00:08:37.200 can't get away

00:08:38.140 from the fact

00:08:38.700 that he has

00:08:39.500 these profound experiences

00:08:40.920 of joy

00:08:41.740 and experience

00:08:42.900 of beauty

00:08:43.540 and he can't

00:08:44.760 at the end of the day

00:08:45.760 conclude

00:08:46.560 that it means nothing,

00:08:48.740 that there's nothing

00:08:49.700 behind it.

00:08:50.760 And so,

00:08:51.060 that's part of his

00:08:52.180 spiritual quest

00:08:52.860 and Tolkien,

00:08:53.420 of course,

00:08:53.680 will play a huge role

00:08:54.520 in his conversion

00:08:55.380 to Christianity.

00:08:56.700 You spend a lot of time

00:08:57.540 in the book

00:08:58.340 discussing the cultural mood

00:09:00.120 that overtook the West

00:09:01.080 after World War I.

00:09:02.620 You know,

00:09:02.820 we typically think of it

00:09:03.620 as an age of cynicism

00:09:04.580 and disillusionment,

00:09:05.620 the lost generation.

00:09:07.020 And you do that

00:09:07.800 because you argue

00:09:08.800 and a lot of other

00:09:09.520 historians argue

00:09:10.220 the aftermath

00:09:11.760 of World War I

00:09:12.700 planted the seeds

00:09:13.980 for World War II.

00:09:16.080 Tell us more about

00:09:17.060 the cultural mood

00:09:18.160 of that time period

00:09:19.060 and how did

00:09:19.920 C.S. Lewis

00:09:21.160 and Tolkien

00:09:21.720 respond to that?

00:09:22.960 Yeah,

00:09:23.160 it's a big question.

00:09:24.060 Brett,

00:09:24.200 let me take a stab at it.

00:09:25.580 Barbara Tuchman

00:09:26.280 who wrote

00:09:26.660 the Pulitzer Prize

00:09:27.380 winning book

00:09:27.880 The Guns of August,

00:09:29.300 she describes

00:09:30.220 the mood

00:09:30.980 by the end

00:09:31.880 of the First World War.

00:09:33.540 She puts it

00:09:34.020 in one word,

00:09:35.440 disillusionment.

00:09:37.160 Disillusionment.

00:09:37.900 And what are people

00:09:38.620 disillusioned with?

00:09:40.220 They're disillusioned

00:09:41.520 with the ideals

00:09:42.780 of Western civilization,

00:09:44.300 the political

00:09:44.760 and religious ideals.

00:09:46.180 So democracy,

00:09:47.400 liberal democracy,

00:09:48.720 capitalism,

00:09:49.960 the ethics

00:09:51.180 and the principles

00:09:51.940 of religion,

00:09:52.620 the idea that

00:09:53.300 individuals matter

00:09:54.300 and have dignity.

00:09:55.580 I mean,

00:09:55.900 it was hard

00:09:56.460 to maintain

00:09:56.960 this concept

00:09:57.840 of the heroic individual,

00:10:00.320 men and women

00:10:01.080 making individual decisions

00:10:02.840 that matter,

00:10:03.880 the whole concept

00:10:04.540 of virtue.

00:10:05.260 All of that

00:10:06.040 seemed to just vanish

00:10:07.600 into the killing fields

00:10:08.900 of 1914,

00:10:10.160 1918.

00:10:10.820 So disillusionment.

00:10:11.960 And of course,

00:10:12.360 that just creates

00:10:12.920 a vacuum.

00:10:13.900 People still have

00:10:14.620 a yearning to believe,

00:10:15.940 a yearning for the transcendent.

00:10:17.560 And instead of reaching

00:10:18.640 for the old faiths,

00:10:20.340 the great historic faiths,

00:10:21.940 they're reaching for

00:10:22.740 what you might call

00:10:23.640 political religions.

00:10:25.280 So it's no coincidence,

00:10:27.100 Brett,

00:10:27.420 that what do you see

00:10:28.940 being launched

00:10:29.820 in the 1920s

00:10:31.000 and 30s

00:10:31.460 in terms of political

00:10:32.300 and social movements?

00:10:33.560 Well,

00:10:34.220 eugenics.

00:10:35.320 Think about that.

00:10:35.960 The movement of eugenics,

00:10:37.380 the pseudo-scientific idea

00:10:39.020 of eugenics

00:10:39.580 takes hold

00:10:40.340 in Europe

00:10:41.160 and in the United States

00:10:42.400 as well.

00:10:43.640 Fascism,

00:10:44.660 Nazism,

00:10:45.580 and communism.

00:10:46.220 They all take flight

00:10:47.720 in the light

00:10:48.980 of the carnage

00:10:49.760 of that First World War.

00:10:51.260 And Lewis and Tolkien

00:10:52.180 have a ringside seat

00:10:53.260 to that in Great Britain.

00:10:54.580 Yeah,

00:10:54.720 and you also talk about

00:10:55.400 psychoanalysis

00:10:56.540 really rose

00:10:57.700 to prominence

00:10:58.560 during this period too

00:10:59.200 because people were

00:10:59.860 looking for meaning

00:11:00.660 because they didn't see any

00:11:01.780 and they said,

00:11:02.300 well,

00:11:02.880 maybe the best we can do

00:11:04.000 is lay on a couch

00:11:04.920 and talk about

00:11:06.180 our childhoods.

00:11:07.780 Yes,

00:11:08.200 and Freud,

00:11:08.860 of course,

00:11:09.480 really comes into his own

00:11:10.560 in the 1920s,

00:11:11.620 his book,

00:11:12.060 The Future of an Illusion.

00:11:13.660 He goes after religion

00:11:15.160 as a psychosis

00:11:16.320 and that becomes

00:11:17.760 a dominant view

00:11:18.540 and that influenced

00:11:19.280 C.S. Lewis

00:11:19.700 when he was an atheist

00:11:20.440 in a profound way

00:11:21.380 because he thought,

00:11:21.980 well,

00:11:22.120 you know,

00:11:22.700 religions are just

00:11:23.600 wish fulfillments,

00:11:25.420 wish fulfillments.

00:11:26.280 That's Freud.

00:11:27.540 And Lewis has to

00:11:28.300 shake himself loose

00:11:29.240 of that thinking

00:11:29.820 and he does

00:11:30.380 in his first

00:11:31.800 kind of spiritual

00:11:33.280 autobiography,

00:11:34.440 The Pilgrim's Regress,

00:11:35.860 which he published

00:11:36.480 in 1933,

00:11:37.820 a couple of years

00:11:38.380 after he became

00:11:38.820 a Christian.

00:11:39.400 He goes after

00:11:40.320 Sigmund Freud

00:11:41.100 with an axe,

00:11:41.940 rhetorically speaking.

00:11:43.260 You know,

00:11:43.400 he realizes this

00:11:44.280 is all kind of

00:11:45.380 begging the question

00:11:46.520 with Freud.

00:11:47.360 What is it that

00:11:48.060 we truly wish for?

00:11:50.500 So, yeah,

00:11:51.200 there's a real influence

00:11:52.080 of psychoanalysis.

00:11:53.120 Think about the ideologies,

00:11:55.100 the forces that are

00:11:55.840 pressing on these guys

00:11:56.920 as they're starting

00:11:58.000 to write their epic works,

00:11:59.540 Brad,

00:11:59.680 and this is what's

00:12:00.240 so deeply encouraging

00:12:01.340 to me.

00:12:02.220 I think that they

00:12:03.140 are deliberately

00:12:03.720 pushing back

00:12:04.500 against these ideologies.

00:12:06.140 The totalitarian state,

00:12:07.580 the idea that the

00:12:08.200 individual doesn't matter,

00:12:09.660 religion as a psychosis,

00:12:11.340 the idea that there

00:12:12.080 is nothing heroic

00:12:13.660 about human life,

00:12:14.980 and think about

00:12:15.580 what they're writing.

00:12:16.720 The Hobbit,

00:12:17.580 The Lord of the Rings,

00:12:18.560 The Space Trilogy,

00:12:19.560 The Chronicles of Narnia,

00:12:20.500 they are deliberately

00:12:21.360 pushing back against

00:12:22.340 the cultural literary

00:12:24.040 establishment of the day.

00:12:26.020 Well,

00:12:26.160 and you talk about

00:12:26.800 Tolkien started this

00:12:27.720 pushback

00:12:28.480 even before he wrote

00:12:30.240 The Hobbit

00:12:31.260 or The Lord of the Rings

00:12:32.700 as a professor

00:12:33.760 at Oxford.

00:12:34.860 Yeah.

00:12:35.340 What people often forget

00:12:36.640 about Tolkien

00:12:37.240 was that besides being

00:12:38.580 a fantastic fantasy writer,

00:12:40.320 he was a first-rate scholar,

00:12:42.040 and one of his expertise

00:12:43.060 was in Beowulf.

00:12:45.140 Yes,

00:12:45.400 that's exactly right.

00:12:46.560 I think that was

00:12:47.360 probably the most important

00:12:49.300 work for him

00:12:51.060 professionally and personally.

00:12:52.300 this Scandinavian hero

00:12:54.980 from the 6th century

00:12:56.540 who takes on Grendel,

00:12:57.940 these monsters,

00:12:58.720 Grendel,

00:12:59.160 Grendel's mother

00:12:59.860 and the dragon.

00:13:01.180 And he translated that work,

00:13:03.440 he taught on it

00:13:04.400 for decades,

00:13:05.380 and it clearly influenced

00:13:07.480 his imagination

00:13:08.520 about the idea

00:13:09.140 of the heroic,

00:13:09.980 the individual

00:13:10.820 who goes out

00:13:11.740 to meet danger

00:13:12.740 and doesn't flinch.

00:13:14.720 And he's doing it

00:13:15.540 not for his own

00:13:16.240 personal glory,

00:13:17.540 but he's doing it

00:13:18.200 because there's a deep need

00:13:19.560 to protect the innocent

00:13:20.880 from great harm.

00:13:22.260 And you see how Beowulf

00:13:23.300 just works its way

00:13:24.800 through his great

00:13:25.800 imaginative works.

00:13:26.680 You're absolutely right.

00:13:27.680 And that's a deliberate

00:13:28.640 pushback, though.

00:13:29.500 He's trying to retrieve,

00:13:30.740 I think, Brett.

00:13:32.080 Tolkien and Lewis both

00:13:32.900 are trying to retrieve

00:13:33.900 the concept

00:13:34.800 of the epic hero,

00:13:36.120 but they're reinventing him

00:13:37.440 for the modern mind

00:13:38.540 in the 20th century,

00:13:39.800 and that's part

00:13:40.220 of their great achievement.

00:13:41.320 Yeah, you talk about

00:13:42.140 Tolkien got that idea

00:13:43.660 from Norse mythology.

00:13:45.280 Besides Beowulf,

00:13:46.080 he devoured,

00:13:47.120 he loved the myths

00:13:47.960 of the North,

00:13:48.540 but this idea

00:13:49.420 of the tragic hero.

00:13:50.860 Like, you stand up

00:13:51.740 for something

00:13:52.440 because it's right,

00:13:54.080 even though you know

00:13:55.180 you might,

00:13:55.800 there's a good chance

00:13:56.360 you're going to fail.

00:13:57.340 That's right.

00:13:58.200 There's something

00:13:58.700 about the idea

00:13:59.260 of your back is to the wall,

00:14:01.160 but you're not going

00:14:02.120 to back down.

00:14:03.300 You're going to die

00:14:04.020 on your feet,

00:14:04.860 and that appeals

00:14:05.660 to both these men.

00:14:06.920 Think about Lewis.

00:14:07.940 He said himself,

00:14:09.480 outside of the Bible,

00:14:10.500 the most important work

00:14:11.920 on his professional life

00:14:13.120 piece of literature

00:14:13.740 would have been

00:14:14.460 Virgil's Aeneid.

00:14:16.580 And what's the Aeneid?

00:14:17.440 Aeneid is this

00:14:18.980 heroic figure

00:14:20.120 who takes on

00:14:20.780 this great calling,

00:14:21.700 this great task,

00:14:22.440 the founding of Rome.

00:14:24.220 It's the founding myth

00:14:25.060 of ancient Rome.

00:14:25.920 He's kind of a reluctant hero,

00:14:27.540 and he has to face

00:14:28.640 all kinds of dangers.

00:14:30.120 So both these men

00:14:31.420 really were drawn

00:14:32.360 to these epic stories

00:14:34.060 of the heroic quest,

00:14:35.340 and that's what drew them

00:14:36.220 together in friendship,

00:14:37.140 one of the huge threads

00:14:38.420 in their friendship.

00:14:39.480 Yeah, we'll talk about

00:14:39.960 how they met

00:14:40.540 because that was

00:14:40.800 really interesting.

00:14:41.880 But yeah,

00:14:42.120 so Tolkien,

00:14:42.640 he was a devout Catholic.

00:14:43.480 He was using Beowulf

00:14:44.720 professionally,

00:14:45.560 but also personally

00:14:46.320 on this mission.

00:14:47.160 I'm going to push back

00:14:47.920 against all the stuff

00:14:48.560 I'm seeing.

00:14:49.440 During this time

00:14:50.200 in the interwar period,

00:14:51.800 C.S. Lewis,

00:14:53.180 as you said,

00:14:53.720 he was an atheist,

00:14:54.800 but you describe

00:14:55.680 how his love

00:14:56.640 of classics

00:14:57.400 and of myths,

00:14:59.220 that's the thing

00:14:59.720 that eventually led him

00:15:00.880 to his conversion

00:15:01.900 to Christianity.

00:15:03.540 Yes,

00:15:04.100 and I think one person

00:15:05.180 we have to mention

00:15:05.840 in this journey

00:15:06.800 is George MacDonald,

00:15:08.380 the Scottish author,

00:15:10.020 19th century

00:15:10.660 Scottish author,

00:15:11.420 who in his fiction,

00:15:13.240 he imbues his fiction

00:15:14.680 with a sense of,

00:15:16.480 I don't know how else

00:15:17.000 to say it,

00:15:17.460 except a transcendent.

00:15:18.980 There's something enchanting

00:15:20.440 about MacDonald

00:15:21.780 and what Lewis said

00:15:23.060 about MacDonald,

00:15:23.800 he first picked him up,

00:15:24.740 Fantasties,

00:15:25.660 his fictional work,

00:15:26.800 in 1916,

00:15:27.900 in the middle

00:15:28.260 of the First World War.

00:15:30.360 And Lewis said

00:15:31.040 when he read that book,

00:15:33.100 he said,

00:15:33.600 I knew after a few hours

00:15:35.620 that I had crossed

00:15:36.600 a great frontier

00:15:37.500 and that when MacDonald

00:15:38.840 had done was,

00:15:39.820 he had helped

00:15:40.260 to baptize his imagination.

00:15:42.180 That's Lewis's phrase.

00:15:43.420 Now,

00:15:43.660 I'm not sure I know

00:15:44.280 exactly what that means,

00:15:45.520 Brett,

00:15:45.720 to baptize your imagination,

00:15:47.400 but Lewis went on further

00:15:49.020 to say it helped him

00:15:50.800 to learn to love goodness,

00:15:53.060 this skeptical atheist

00:15:54.540 learning to love goodness

00:15:56.320 through this author

00:15:57.920 of imaginative fantasy.

00:16:00.280 So that was a template

00:16:01.320 in some ways,

00:16:02.300 I think,

00:16:02.560 for Lewis,

00:16:02.960 profound influence

00:16:03.860 on his literary life.

00:16:05.640 Yeah,

00:16:05.800 I mean,

00:16:05.940 he talks later on

00:16:06.860 about the role of myth,

00:16:08.500 like Norse myth,

00:16:10.240 Greek myths,

00:16:11.440 and his conversion.

00:16:12.360 So, you know,

00:16:12.800 that MacDonald work

00:16:13.520 helped him become a theist,

00:16:15.740 but then he talks about

00:16:16.760 his conversion to Christianity

00:16:17.760 with that, you know,

00:16:18.680 famous Addison's Walk

00:16:19.800 with Tolkien

00:16:20.280 where he had this conversation.

00:16:21.280 He's like,

00:16:21.640 yeah,

00:16:21.860 I can actually say

00:16:23.000 I'm a Christian now.

00:16:23.960 But Lewis talks about

00:16:24.980 this idea of the true myth.

00:16:26.580 Yes.

00:16:27.240 Tell us about that.

00:16:28.060 What does he mean

00:16:28.460 by the true myth?

00:16:29.140 Yes,

00:16:29.460 and this is the conversation

00:16:30.740 on Addison's Walk

00:16:31.520 with Hugo Dyson,

00:16:33.240 J.R.R. Tolkien,

00:16:34.080 and C.S. Lewis.

00:16:34.880 After dinner,

00:16:35.560 they're walking.

00:16:36.620 And Lewis's great hang-up,

00:16:38.000 and this kind of went back

00:16:38.680 to Freud,

00:16:39.300 was, you know,

00:16:39.900 Christianity,

00:16:40.620 it's just like

00:16:41.060 all the other pagan myths.

00:16:42.240 That's what he's thinking

00:16:43.160 more or less

00:16:44.060 up until that moment.

00:16:45.340 It doesn't have any truth value.

00:16:47.120 It's a nice story.

00:16:48.120 It's an inspiring story.

00:16:49.400 Tolkien challenges him

00:16:51.040 because Tolkien's understanding

00:16:52.760 of myth was,

00:16:53.800 you know,

00:16:54.280 there's the great story,

00:16:55.920 the Christian story.

00:16:57.520 God becomes a man.

00:16:58.840 The God-man dies for our sin,

00:17:00.720 rises from the dead,

00:17:02.100 the person of Jesus.

00:17:03.180 That's the great myth.

00:17:04.620 Myth meaning not that

00:17:06.120 it's not true,

00:17:06.940 but it has this sort of

00:17:08.160 epic feel,

00:17:09.600 heroic feel.

00:17:11.040 It expresses our deepest

00:17:12.900 aspirations and longings.

00:17:14.520 In that sense,

00:17:15.060 it's mythic.

00:17:16.260 But what Tolkien helps

00:17:17.460 Lewis to see is,

00:17:18.740 Christianity,

00:17:19.760 it's a myth

00:17:20.420 that became fact.

00:17:22.060 And the reason C.S. Lewis

00:17:23.580 was so drawn

00:17:24.500 to these other pagan myths

00:17:25.960 is because they were

00:17:27.040 derivative of the great myth.

00:17:29.840 They were splintered fragments

00:17:31.840 of the true light,

00:17:33.580 as Tolkien put it.

00:17:34.660 And that's the intellectual

00:17:35.740 breakthrough, Brett,

00:17:36.980 for C.S. Lewis

00:17:37.700 on Addison's Walk.

00:17:38.800 When he begins to grasp

00:17:40.160 for the first time,

00:17:40.960 wait a minute,

00:17:41.900 Christianity has the ring

00:17:43.040 of truth,

00:17:44.000 the myth that became fact.

00:17:45.180 That's the breakthrough.

00:17:45.980 And within a matter of days,

00:17:47.160 he becomes a Christian.

00:17:48.440 Yeah.

00:17:48.780 Well, let's talk about 1926

00:17:50.900 because that's the year

00:17:51.660 Lewis and Tolkien met.

00:17:53.200 Yes.

00:17:53.720 What was that initial meeting like

00:17:55.100 and how did they meet?

00:17:56.560 It didn't go well.

00:17:57.940 You know,

00:17:58.180 I've served the different colleges

00:18:00.060 and faculties,

00:18:00.760 faculty meetings.

00:18:01.300 They're in a faculty meeting

00:18:02.640 and they're arguing

00:18:03.740 over the curriculum.

00:18:04.940 And we won't get

00:18:05.380 into the weeds here,

00:18:06.160 but they're just debating,

00:18:07.260 you know,

00:18:07.720 what should be taught,

00:18:08.660 what should be emphasized,

00:18:09.740 the older languages,

00:18:10.880 the older literature

00:18:11.760 or more medieval literature.

00:18:13.460 They're on different sides

00:18:14.460 of this debate.

00:18:15.280 And so they are kind of

00:18:16.380 circling each other

00:18:17.200 like tigers in the wild.

00:18:19.580 But that initial tension

00:18:22.280 and opposition,

00:18:23.300 it turns into friendship.

00:18:24.980 I think a huge step

00:18:26.240 was when Tolkien

00:18:27.060 invites C.S. Lewis,

00:18:28.680 this probably within

00:18:29.680 a matter of months,

00:18:30.660 I think,

00:18:31.380 to join a reading club.

00:18:34.540 And Brett,

00:18:34.880 the reading club

00:18:35.620 was Icelandic sagas.

00:18:38.820 Only Oxford Dons

00:18:40.100 would do this, right?

00:18:41.020 They get together

00:18:41.740 to read Icelandic sagas

00:18:43.180 in their original Icelandic.

00:18:45.240 And Tolkien invites Lewis

00:18:46.860 and they discover

00:18:48.540 this common love

00:18:49.600 of these epic stories

00:18:51.100 and also a love of language.

00:18:53.600 And that's the beginning,

00:18:54.680 I think,

00:18:55.020 of the friendship

00:18:55.700 in a huge way.

00:18:56.420 So they started off

00:18:57.680 being part of this book club,

00:18:59.100 this book group.

00:18:59.880 When did they start

00:19:00.880 critiquing and workshopping

00:19:02.580 each other's writing?

00:19:04.520 That's a great question.

00:19:05.520 There's another turning point

00:19:06.460 in the friendship.

00:19:07.700 And I think this was

00:19:08.520 in around 1931.

00:19:12.300 I think it was just before

00:19:13.120 Lewis's conversion

00:19:14.660 that Tolkien shares

00:19:17.080 with C.S. Lewis

00:19:18.260 the story of Baron and Luthien,

00:19:21.420 the elvish princess

00:19:22.760 and the mortal man.

00:19:24.160 And he wrote this really

00:19:26.080 during the First World War,

00:19:27.440 modeled on his relationship

00:19:28.860 with his wife, Edith.

00:19:30.020 It was the story

00:19:30.880 that Tolkien said

00:19:31.480 was closest to his heart.

00:19:32.860 And he's got a draft of it

00:19:34.280 and he sends it to C.S. Lewis

00:19:36.720 to get his feedback.

00:19:38.280 Now you think about that.

00:19:39.260 This is a deeply personal

00:19:40.860 kind of story.

00:19:42.160 Emotionally,

00:19:42.840 Tolkien is really invested in it.

00:19:44.720 He sends it to Lewis

00:19:45.760 to see what he's going

00:19:47.800 to do with it.

00:19:48.540 Does he have any advice?

00:19:50.220 And what he does

00:19:51.680 is so crucial

00:19:52.660 to the relationship.

00:19:54.160 He writes Tolkien back.

00:19:56.080 He says,

00:19:56.760 I've never had

00:19:57.560 such a pleasant evening

00:19:58.880 reading a story like this.

00:20:00.500 I'm paraphrasing now.

00:20:01.540 And I'm going to send you

00:20:03.100 pages of critique.

00:20:04.440 Quibbles will follow.

00:20:05.780 He sends off,

00:20:06.760 I think,

00:20:06.920 about 10 pages of critique

00:20:08.480 of the story

00:20:09.700 to improve it

00:20:10.640 and Tolkien will incorporate

00:20:11.820 many of Lewis's suggestions.

00:20:13.740 But the point here, Brett,

00:20:14.640 is that

00:20:14.960 that's a moment

00:20:16.080 of vulnerability.

00:20:17.200 Because authors,

00:20:18.280 you know,

00:20:18.460 being an author myself,

00:20:19.480 I don't like sending

00:20:20.360 manuscripts that are not done,

00:20:22.000 really completed

00:20:23.300 to anybody to read.

00:20:24.680 This is an uncompleted manuscript.

00:20:27.160 He sends it to his friend.

00:20:28.620 It's close to his heart

00:20:30.000 and his friend's response

00:20:31.020 beautifully.

00:20:32.220 And if he had not,

00:20:33.720 I think the relationship

00:20:34.740 would have collapsed.

00:20:35.520 But instead,

00:20:36.400 it's a window

00:20:37.140 into both their hearts.

00:20:39.000 And it's the beginning

00:20:39.660 of what's going to become

00:20:40.520 a really profoundly important

00:20:42.280 and transformative friendship

00:20:43.440 for both of them.

00:20:44.680 Yeah, I think it's a good

00:20:45.220 lesson on friendship.

00:20:45.980 If you want friends,

00:20:46.940 you have to be vulnerable

00:20:47.880 sometimes.

00:20:48.580 And what made their friendship

00:20:50.920 so unique was that

00:20:51.880 they could both give

00:20:53.480 and receive criticism.

00:20:54.680 And that's hard to do.

00:20:55.760 And they could talk

00:20:56.260 about everything too,

00:20:56.960 like their writing,

00:20:57.840 their spiritual stuff,

00:20:59.440 intellectual stuff.

00:21:00.480 And as you said,

00:21:01.260 it became a transformative

00:21:02.300 friendship for both of them.

00:21:04.360 Tolkien,

00:21:04.920 he wrote this in his diary

00:21:06.120 talking about Lewis.

00:21:07.820 He said this,

00:21:09.120 Friendship with Lewis

00:21:10.140 compensates for much.

00:21:11.980 And besides giving

00:21:12.660 constant pleasure and comfort

00:21:13.820 has done me much good.

00:21:15.720 And something else

00:21:16.560 that brought them together

00:21:17.260 that you talk about

00:21:18.060 in the book

00:21:18.540 was that they started

00:21:20.140 what you call

00:21:20.940 a conspiracy of dons

00:21:22.680 at Oxford.

00:21:23.560 What do you mean by that?

00:21:25.980 The conspiracy of dons.

00:21:27.460 Well, there were different

00:21:28.300 things they were doing.

00:21:29.040 They had this little club

00:21:29.880 of they're going to push back

00:21:31.140 against bad trends

00:21:32.660 in the curriculum.

00:21:33.620 So they have these dons,

00:21:34.820 like-minded dons

00:21:35.580 who are trying to hold on

00:21:36.800 really to the classical

00:21:38.320 medieval Christian tradition

00:21:40.060 and making sure

00:21:41.060 that that is up front

00:21:42.460 and center

00:21:43.000 in the curriculum.

00:21:44.280 So that's part

00:21:45.000 of the conspiracy.

00:21:46.300 But then what that

00:21:47.180 kind of evolves into

00:21:48.220 with Tolkien and Lewis

00:21:49.140 as the anchor

00:21:49.940 is, of course,

00:21:50.860 the Inklings.

00:21:51.960 And these are like-minded

00:21:53.260 Christian authors

00:21:54.280 who decide,

00:21:55.120 look, we've got to

00:21:56.280 be engaged

00:21:57.240 in this cultural fight

00:21:58.580 against the modernist

00:22:00.400 movement in literature,

00:22:01.380 which is so dehumanizing,

00:22:03.440 the disintegration

00:22:04.400 of human personality,

00:22:05.700 anti-heroic.

00:22:06.520 We're going to push

00:22:07.000 back against that.

00:22:07.860 So the Inklings

00:22:08.540 come together

00:22:09.160 right around

00:22:09.980 in the early 1930s

00:22:11.440 after Lewis's conversion.

00:22:12.540 And they're meeting

00:22:13.500 in Lewis's rooms

00:22:14.420 at Magdalene College

00:22:15.780 every Thursday night.

00:22:17.260 They move to Friday

00:22:17.960 later on,

00:22:18.480 but every week

00:22:19.420 for something like,

00:22:20.740 I don't know,

00:22:21.560 15 years,

00:22:23.060 almost without fail,

00:22:24.540 Brett,

00:22:25.000 these Inklings

00:22:25.840 with Lewis and Tolkien

00:22:26.940 as the anchor

00:22:27.780 will meet every week

00:22:29.000 to share their latest

00:22:30.480 literary creations,

00:22:31.760 a portion of it,

00:22:32.580 read it out loud,

00:22:33.380 and then to be critiqued

00:22:34.740 by these other authors

00:22:36.340 in the room.

00:22:37.180 Pretty scary stuff.

00:22:39.000 You're an author.

00:22:40.140 Yeah,

00:22:40.340 and you talk about

00:22:41.100 C.S. Lewis

00:22:41.560 in a letter to Tolkien.

00:22:43.680 He even wrote,

00:22:44.400 he says,

00:22:44.740 look,

00:22:45.400 the world,

00:22:45.980 they're not writing

00:22:46.560 the kind of books

00:22:47.280 we like to read,

00:22:48.840 like the inspiring,

00:22:50.120 noble books.

00:22:51.160 And so he says,

00:22:51.820 we're going to have

00:22:52.160 to write them ourselves.

00:22:53.200 That's right.

00:22:53.800 That's exactly right.

00:22:54.700 In 1936,

00:22:56.080 this conversation,

00:22:57.600 toddlers,

00:22:58.080 we're going to have

00:22:58.500 to write them ourselves.

00:22:59.780 So what happens?

00:23:00.820 They have a pact.

00:23:01.940 You could argue

00:23:02.440 this is part of

00:23:02.880 the conspiracy of the Dons

00:23:04.200 to push back

00:23:05.240 against the establishment.

00:23:06.240 They make a pact.

00:23:07.200 Tolkien is supposed

00:23:07.840 to write a time travel story.

00:23:09.660 Lewis is supposed

00:23:10.920 to write a space travel story.

00:23:13.260 Tolkien doesn't ever finish

00:23:14.700 his time travel story.

00:23:16.100 He starts it,

00:23:16.640 doesn't finish it.

00:23:17.440 But then he'll publish

00:23:18.360 The Hobbit in 1937

00:23:19.840 and almost immediately

00:23:21.140 starts writing

00:23:21.860 The Lord of the Rings.

00:23:23.520 Lewis publishes

00:23:24.560 Out of the Silent Planet,

00:23:26.620 the first of the space trilogy.

00:23:29.280 And what that story,

00:23:30.400 what that trilogy does,

00:23:31.460 Brett,

00:23:31.660 we can get into it more,

00:23:32.580 is it's retelling,

00:23:34.480 really,

00:23:34.780 the story of the fall,

00:23:36.480 the biblical story

00:23:37.500 of the fall.

00:23:38.060 And it's using

00:23:39.260 this mythic literature

00:23:40.340 and the genre

00:23:41.120 of science fiction

00:23:41.900 to do it.

00:23:42.740 It's a profound reflection

00:23:43.980 on the nature of evil

00:23:45.540 and the tragedy

00:23:46.740 of the human condition.

00:23:48.240 Let's talk about The Hobbit.

00:23:49.460 So Tolkien finished

00:23:50.140 that first draft in 1933.

00:23:52.120 World War II,

00:23:53.500 you could start seeing,

00:23:54.900 like,

00:23:55.040 something's going to happen here

00:23:56.080 soon.

00:23:57.440 Yeah.

00:23:57.600 With The Hobbit,

00:23:58.640 we typically think of it

00:23:59.300 as a children's story.

00:24:00.200 Did he write it primarily

00:24:01.300 as a child's story,

00:24:02.380 or was he trying

00:24:03.500 to do something bigger with it?

00:24:05.960 Well,

00:24:06.500 he writes it primarily

00:24:07.540 as a child's story

00:24:08.180 because he was telling it

00:24:10.860 to his children.

00:24:12.000 He just loved to read stories

00:24:14.080 to his kids

00:24:14.600 and make up stories

00:24:15.500 and share them

00:24:16.220 with his children.

00:24:16.880 So that really was aimed

00:24:18.160 at children.

00:24:18.920 But because of Tolkien's

00:24:20.460 just sensitivity,

00:24:22.020 his maturity,

00:24:22.680 his depth,

00:24:23.660 as an adult,

00:24:24.820 you read that story

00:24:25.580 and it's speaking to adults

00:24:27.320 as much as it's speaking

00:24:28.660 to children.

00:24:29.620 So he had high expectations,

00:24:31.440 let's put it this way,

00:24:32.180 high expectations

00:24:33.020 for what his children

00:24:34.500 could and should learn.

00:24:36.660 And Lewis is the same way.

00:24:37.980 Even as they're writing

00:24:38.780 for children,

00:24:39.720 they want to expose them

00:24:41.100 to the realities

00:24:42.140 of this life.

00:24:43.400 The tragedy,

00:24:44.300 the darkness of evil,

00:24:45.340 but also the capacity

00:24:47.600 for individuals

00:24:49.140 to fight against

00:24:50.380 the darkness.

00:24:51.300 They want to introduce

00:24:52.220 them to the problem

00:24:53.080 of dragons,

00:24:53.780 the problem of evil,

00:24:54.760 but also to heroes

00:24:56.100 who know how to slay dragons.

00:24:57.580 So it's speaking

00:24:58.640 to two audiences

00:24:59.400 at the same time,

00:25:00.220 I think, Brett,

00:25:00.880 is safe to say.

00:25:01.600 Yeah, and Tolkien said

00:25:03.500 that this idea

00:25:04.140 of battling dragons,

00:25:05.720 you know,

00:25:05.920 battling evil,

00:25:07.220 that can be done

00:25:07.820 by regular people.

00:25:08.980 And I think he even said

00:25:10.180 that he patterned

00:25:11.680 the hobbits

00:25:12.300 after the ordinary

00:25:13.820 working class people

00:25:15.140 he fought with

00:25:15.980 during World War I.

00:25:17.420 Yes, he literally says

00:25:19.140 in one of his letters

00:25:19.960 that his Sam Gamgee

00:25:21.320 is indeed based

00:25:22.580 on the English soldier

00:25:24.220 with whom I served

00:25:25.200 in the First World War

00:25:26.920 and considered so far

00:25:28.380 superior to myself.

00:25:29.960 That's how he describes it.

00:25:31.040 So one of the most

00:25:31.780 beloved characters

00:25:32.900 in all of modern fiction,

00:25:34.620 the Hobbit,

00:25:35.400 is based on the English soldier

00:25:37.140 in a trench.

00:25:38.260 That's fascinating, isn't it?

00:25:39.820 That's fascinating.

00:25:41.000 But dragons, you know,

00:25:42.220 both these men

00:25:43.000 really saw the dragon

00:25:44.160 as the embodiment

00:25:45.340 of radical evil.

00:25:46.920 There's a wonderful speech,

00:25:47.940 an address that Tolkien gave

00:25:49.580 in January of 1938.

00:25:52.340 You know,

00:25:52.500 as the storm clouds

00:25:53.680 are gathering in Europe,

00:25:55.460 Brett,

00:25:55.840 the gathering storm,

00:25:57.460 the totalitarian states,

00:25:58.820 Italian fascism,

00:26:00.660 German Nazism,

00:26:01.700 and of course,

00:26:02.200 the Soviet Union.

00:26:03.300 He delivers this talk

00:26:04.620 in 1938.

00:26:06.100 It's supposed to be

00:26:06.920 a talk to children,

00:26:08.280 young children,

00:26:08.960 about dragons.

00:26:10.320 And he gets into

00:26:11.400 some pretty serious stuff

00:26:12.760 about the nature

00:26:14.800 of the dragon,

00:26:15.720 the embodiment of evil.

00:26:17.500 And there's a line there

00:26:18.500 that I love in this speech.

00:26:19.960 He says,

00:26:20.860 dragons are the final test

00:26:22.900 of heroes.

00:26:24.160 The final test of heroes.

00:26:25.820 We are called to engage

00:26:27.880 against the darkness.

00:26:29.260 And he's delivering

00:26:29.820 this message to kids.

00:26:31.400 Amazing.

00:26:32.560 We're going to take a quick break

00:26:33.580 for a word from our sponsors.

00:26:36.240 So I've hit my 40s

00:26:37.460 and I'm starting to think

00:26:38.440 a little bit more

00:26:39.260 about my skin

00:26:39.960 than I did

00:26:40.880 back in my 20s.

00:26:42.160 Using sunscreen,

00:26:43.660 things like that.

00:26:44.300 I'm not trying to look

00:26:44.840 like I'm 25 again,

00:26:45.820 but I'd like to avoid

00:26:46.780 looking like a beat up

00:26:48.140 catcher's mitt.

00:26:49.000 That's where Caldera Lab

00:26:50.680 comes in.

00:26:51.760 Their skincare is made

00:26:52.720 specifically for men.

00:26:53.820 It's simple, effective,

00:26:55.400 and backed by science.

00:26:56.640 And it actually works.

00:26:58.040 Since I started using it

00:26:58.880 several months ago,

00:26:59.620 my wife Kate has noticed

00:27:00.580 that my skin looks

00:27:01.420 healthier and smoother

00:27:02.320 and it's all because

00:27:03.440 of Caldera Lab.

00:27:04.620 My routine is dead simple.

00:27:06.020 I first start out

00:27:06.500 with the base layer.

00:27:07.280 It's a fast absorbing

00:27:08.000 moisturizer that hydrates

00:27:09.380 without the shine.

00:27:10.540 Then I use the Good Serum.

00:27:12.020 It's their award winning serum

00:27:13.120 packed with 27 botanicals

00:27:14.540 and over 3 million

00:27:15.380 antioxidant units per drop.

00:27:17.400 It protects against

00:27:18.100 environmental stress.

00:27:19.400 And if I've had a rough night

00:27:20.400 or I just look like I have,

00:27:21.980 I dab on the Eye Serum.

00:27:23.060 It helps with dark circles

00:27:24.140 and puffiness.

00:27:25.160 If you want to look

00:27:25.600 a little better,

00:27:26.260 feel more confident,

00:27:27.100 maybe get a few compliments

00:27:28.220 of your own,

00:27:29.060 head to calderalab.com

00:27:30.840 slash manliness

00:27:31.720 and use code manliness

00:27:33.160 at checkout

00:27:33.600 for 20% off your first order.

00:27:36.020 That's calderalab,

00:27:37.340 C-A-L-D-E-R-A-L-A-B

00:27:40.180 dot com slash manliness.

00:27:42.080 Use code manliness

00:27:42.900 at checkout

00:27:43.340 for 20% off your first order.

00:27:45.460 If there's one resolution

00:27:46.500 that's worth keeping this year,

00:27:47.660 it's finally launching

00:27:48.440 that business you've had

00:27:49.260 on the back burner

00:27:49.960 for a long time.

00:27:51.240 Whether it's a side hustle

00:27:52.160 you've daydreamed about

00:27:53.020 or an idea people

00:27:53.960 keep telling you to run with,

00:27:55.340 2026 is the year

00:27:56.600 to stop talking

00:27:57.320 and start doing.

00:27:58.760 And Shopify is the platform

00:27:59.940 that helps you do it.

00:28:01.060 We've been using Shopify

00:28:01.800 for the Art of Manliness store

00:28:02.840 for over a decade now.

00:28:03.920 It is fantastic.

00:28:04.860 It helps you get a site

00:28:05.500 up and running

00:28:06.020 in just a few minutes.

00:28:07.080 You can create

00:28:07.500 a great looking site

00:28:08.380 that works well

00:28:09.240 and is easy to use

00:28:09.960 for your customer.

00:28:10.780 And it takes care

00:28:11.520 of the not so glamorous stuff,

00:28:12.860 inventory, returns,

00:28:14.300 things like that.

00:28:15.400 Very, very useful

00:28:16.160 on the back end.

00:28:16.760 And they've got new AI tools

00:28:18.280 to help you write

00:28:18.700 product descriptions

00:28:19.320 and edit your photos.

00:28:20.360 And you can do marketing

00:28:21.220 right from Shopify,

00:28:22.200 create email campaigns,

00:28:23.400 social media campaigns

00:28:24.300 right from your dashboard

00:28:25.580 on Shopify.

00:28:26.660 As your business grows,

00:28:27.720 Shopify grows with you.

00:28:28.840 Whether you're shipping

00:28:29.360 10 orders a week

00:28:30.120 or 10,000,

00:28:31.260 that's why it powers

00:28:32.040 millions of businesses

00:28:32.900 around the world

00:28:33.520 from solo shops

00:28:34.620 to household names

00:28:35.620 like Mattel.

00:28:36.600 Turn your idea

00:28:37.300 into income with Shopify.

00:28:38.880 Sign up for your $1

00:28:39.640 per month trial

00:28:40.380 and start selling today

00:28:41.280 at shopify.com

00:28:42.400 slash manliness.

00:28:43.700 That's shopify.com

00:28:44.880 slash manliness.

00:28:46.760 And now back to the show.

00:28:48.960 So he started

00:28:49.900 The Lord of the Rings

00:28:50.620 in 1937

00:28:51.620 and then he worked on it

00:28:52.680 sporadically

00:28:53.280 throughout World War II.

00:28:54.940 Can you see instances

00:28:56.220 in that book

00:28:56.920 you can point to

00:28:57.960 and say,

00:28:58.580 yeah,

00:28:58.720 this was definitely

00:28:59.440 influenced by World War II

00:29:00.640 right here?

00:29:01.740 Well,

00:29:02.260 that is a fabulous question

00:29:03.400 and I've dealt with it

00:29:04.400 some in my book

00:29:05.680 and more dissertations

00:29:07.920 need to be written

00:29:08.760 about this.

00:29:09.800 If you think about

00:29:10.840 the Battle of Peliner Fields,

00:29:13.040 for example,

00:29:14.300 I think what's going on there,

00:29:15.880 this defiance.

00:29:17.280 Let me read you a few lines

00:29:18.120 from the Battle of Peliner Fields

00:29:19.220 and I'm going to connect it

00:29:20.200 to the war moment.

00:29:21.940 Stern now is Irmer's mood

00:29:23.900 and his mind clear again.

00:29:26.380 He let blow the horns

00:29:27.640 to rally all men

00:29:29.240 to his banner

00:29:30.020 that could come hither,

00:29:31.420 for he thought to make

00:29:32.180 a great shield wall

00:29:33.340 at the last

00:29:33.960 and stand

00:29:34.960 and fight there on foot

00:29:36.700 till all fell

00:29:37.960 and do deeds of song

00:29:39.940 on the fields of Peliner.

00:29:41.860 If you think about

00:29:42.660 what Britain is doing

00:29:43.740 from 1939,

00:29:45.420 particularly up until

00:29:46.420 about 1942,

00:29:47.980 Britain is alone.

00:29:49.240 Britain is hanging

00:29:49.940 by a thread,

00:29:50.760 an existential thread.

00:29:52.120 The Battle of Britain,

00:29:53.600 the Blitz on London,

00:29:55.200 all of Europe,

00:29:56.780 Western and Central Europe

00:29:57.680 is occupied by the Nazis.

00:29:58.940 The United States

00:29:59.540 is nowhere near

00:30:00.400 to joining this war.

00:30:02.000 The Soviet Union

00:30:02.780 is up to its mischief.

00:30:04.320 France has fallen.

00:30:05.700 They're alone.

00:30:07.440 And what Winston Churchill

00:30:08.580 does as the Prime Minister

00:30:09.720 is he delivers speeches

00:30:11.540 like that.

00:30:12.940 You know,

00:30:13.200 I have nothing to offer

00:30:14.220 but blood, toil, tears,

00:30:16.240 and sweat.

00:30:17.020 We will fight them

00:30:17.820 on the beaches, right?

00:30:18.840 And that rhetoric,

00:30:20.300 that oratory

00:30:21.240 is in the air.

00:30:22.840 And just as Churchill

00:30:24.060 is helping to inspire

00:30:27.080 the British people

00:30:28.420 to stand against

00:30:29.740 the darkness of fascism,

00:30:31.220 you have to imagine

00:30:32.460 that that British spirit

00:30:34.100 is also working its way

00:30:35.640 on Tolkien's imagination

00:30:36.780 as he's writing out

00:30:38.240 some of these passages

00:30:39.060 in the Lord of the Rings.

00:30:40.860 I don't know if you came across,

00:30:42.320 I don't remember reading

00:30:42.880 this in the book,

00:30:43.480 but did you come across

00:30:44.420 any instances

00:30:45.120 where Tolkien

00:30:46.180 or Churchill crossed paths

00:30:47.860 or where Churchill commented

00:30:49.040 on Tolkien's work at all?

00:30:50.780 Because it seemed like

00:30:51.580 they were kind of,

00:30:52.740 like Tolkien and C.S. Lewis,

00:30:54.420 they were romantics

00:30:55.260 like Churchill.

00:30:57.360 Yeah, yeah.

00:30:58.580 An appreciation

00:30:59.200 for the great epic hero.

00:31:00.800 They were all in that place.

00:31:01.720 I have not yet found

00:31:03.180 any example of where

00:31:04.680 the two of them ever met.

00:31:06.260 The closest thing

00:31:07.460 I can think of

00:31:08.240 is when,

00:31:09.400 in around 1939 or so,

00:31:12.360 the British government

00:31:13.380 reaches out to Tolkien

00:31:14.900 because they want

00:31:16.160 to give him training

00:31:16.980 to be a codebreaker,

00:31:19.920 a codebreaker

00:31:20.860 for the Foreign Service

00:31:21.740 and to work at Bletchley Park.

00:31:23.260 And he gets several days

00:31:24.260 of training

00:31:24.920 in codebreaking

00:31:25.800 because he's a philologist,

00:31:27.100 he's a language guy.

00:31:28.260 And they think,

00:31:28.960 hey, this guy

00:31:29.400 could probably help us.

00:31:30.440 And the end of the day,

00:31:31.240 they won't need his services.

00:31:32.980 But if he had,

00:31:33.960 if he had become

00:31:34.780 a codebreaker,

00:31:35.580 he may well have met

00:31:36.800 Churchill in that context.

00:31:38.700 Well, that's a good thing

00:31:39.320 to point out

00:31:39.880 about both these men

00:31:40.920 during the war.

00:31:42.420 You know,

00:31:42.600 they write these big epic books,

00:31:44.080 you know,

00:31:44.280 particularly Tolkien.

00:31:45.440 But C.S. Lewis

00:31:46.000 is very prolific

00:31:46.880 during this time.

00:31:47.920 But this wasn't

00:31:48.740 their full-time job.

00:31:50.040 Like, they were professors

00:31:51.020 and they had, like,

00:31:51.760 really heavy schedules

00:31:52.660 with that.

00:31:53.140 And then they were also

00:31:53.900 contributing to the war cause.

00:31:55.600 Tolkien did that

00:31:56.220 codebreaking training

00:31:57.140 and Lewis did civil defense stuff.

00:31:59.700 He was an air raid warden

00:32:01.200 for the Home Guard.

00:32:02.140 Yeah, that's one of the reasons

00:32:03.540 this is such an encouraging story

00:32:04.760 to me, Brett,

00:32:05.280 and challenging story

00:32:06.180 because with all these responsibilities

00:32:08.360 and having, you know,

00:32:09.560 served as a professor myself,

00:32:11.120 knowing what's involved in that,

00:32:12.260 if you care about your students,

00:32:13.640 you're grading papers,

00:32:14.740 you're going to faculty meetings,

00:32:15.880 you're doing academic research,

00:32:18.120 you're doing extra war work as well.

00:32:20.120 So when exactly

00:32:21.220 are they writing

00:32:22.020 these great epic stories

00:32:23.440 that at least initially

00:32:24.640 they're not getting paid for?

00:32:25.820 Well, they're stealing away time

00:32:28.840 from other things.

00:32:29.960 They're writing in the evenings.

00:32:31.140 They're writing on weekends.

00:32:32.440 And what does that tell us, Brett?

00:32:33.960 It tells us they have to write.

00:32:35.840 There's something in them.

00:32:37.100 It's part of their sense of calling,

00:32:38.680 I think,

00:32:39.400 as Christian scholars and writers.

00:32:42.180 They can't not write.

00:32:44.560 It's part of what they have to do.

00:32:46.420 And I think also their sense

00:32:47.740 that their own culture,

00:32:49.500 their civilization,

00:32:50.720 needs these stories right now

00:32:52.820 at this moment of cultural crisis.

00:32:54.600 The language that Winston Churchill

00:32:56.340 used in one of his speeches

00:32:57.540 after the disastrous Munich Pact,

00:33:01.160 you know,

00:33:01.380 giving Hitler Czechoslovakia effectively.

00:33:04.260 Churchill talks about the need

00:33:05.720 to recover martial vigor,

00:33:07.980 moral strength and martial vigor.

00:33:10.320 Well, there's a political element to that,

00:33:12.800 but there's a cultural element.

00:33:14.360 And I think these guys sensed

00:33:15.920 Britain needs,

00:33:17.540 it needs stories of heroism,

00:33:20.040 of valor,

00:33:20.700 of sacrifice for a noble cause

00:33:22.980 at this moment of existential crisis.

00:33:25.320 So you mentioned the inklings,

00:33:27.420 you know,

00:33:27.760 the stated purpose was,

00:33:28.760 okay,

00:33:28.840 we're going to get together,

00:33:29.560 critique each other's work,

00:33:30.720 writing.

00:33:31.580 But it sounds like a lot of the meetings,

00:33:33.080 it started off like that,

00:33:34.320 but then it would just kind of wander.

00:33:35.760 They just start discussing other stuff.

00:33:38.220 When did they start going

00:33:39.040 beyond their stated purpose?

00:33:40.040 Like what kind of things

00:33:40.740 did they discuss there?

00:33:41.460 And we have no,

00:33:42.680 we don't really have any,

00:33:43.520 you know,

00:33:43.860 transcribed notes from this.

00:33:45.360 We can only speculate a little bit

00:33:47.300 from the letters from Tolkien and Lewis.

00:33:49.500 There's one letter from Lewis

00:33:50.700 describing the inklings to a friend.

00:33:52.720 He says,

00:33:53.320 you know,

00:33:53.460 we gather to talk about literature,

00:33:55.200 but always we talk about something better.

00:33:59.160 I love that phrase,

00:34:00.600 Brett.

00:34:00.920 And you just wonder

00:34:02.140 what it was these guys were talking about.

00:34:04.180 I suspect because

00:34:05.320 most of the members of the inklings

00:34:08.080 had served in the first world war.

00:34:09.560 They're combat veterans.

00:34:11.460 And I think there was

00:34:12.800 some of that discussion about,

00:34:14.400 you know,

00:34:15.060 the great war

00:34:15.900 and what came out of that.

00:34:18.200 So I think that's some of it.

00:34:19.900 They also had just

00:34:20.580 a wonderful sense of humor.

00:34:22.200 I spoke to various people

00:34:24.180 interviewed here for the book

00:34:25.660 and Owen Barfield

00:34:27.520 was one of the members

00:34:28.460 of the inklings

00:34:29.140 and his grandson,

00:34:30.360 also named Owen Barfield,

00:34:32.020 who's done a lot of thinking

00:34:33.040 about the inklings,

00:34:34.160 shared with me,

00:34:35.000 you know,

00:34:35.180 these guys just,

00:34:36.200 yeah,

00:34:36.380 they loved a good pint of beer

00:34:37.740 and they had a great sense of humor.

00:34:39.480 So who knows

00:34:40.080 what they were talking about

00:34:41.400 at some of those sessions,

00:34:42.460 but boy,

00:34:43.060 do I've been a fly on the wall.

00:34:44.980 Yeah.

00:34:45.160 Lewis even said

00:34:46.040 about that idea of laughter and humor.

00:34:48.000 He said,

00:34:48.220 there's no sound I like better

00:34:49.520 than adult male laughter.

00:34:51.680 Yes.

00:34:52.720 Yes.

00:34:53.240 You know,

00:34:53.600 the chapter

00:34:54.140 in his wonderful book,

00:34:56.020 The Four Loves,

00:34:56.720 the chapter on friendship,

00:34:58.340 which I think

00:34:58.840 is one of the most magnificent

00:34:59.780 pieces of writings,

00:35:01.000 reflections on male friendship

00:35:02.760 that you're ever going to find.

00:35:04.280 It is drawn

00:35:05.440 from his experience

00:35:06.480 with the inklings

00:35:07.500 and the idea

00:35:08.660 that we find ourselves

00:35:10.000 amongst our betters.

00:35:12.040 You know,

00:35:12.160 we don't deserve

00:35:12.840 to be in this amazing

00:35:13.920 circle of people

00:35:14.940 and with our drinks

00:35:16.400 on our elbows

00:35:17.160 and the fire is blazing

00:35:18.520 and something opens up

00:35:20.200 in our minds,

00:35:21.320 something even beyond

00:35:22.300 the walls of this world.

00:35:23.680 And he goes on

00:35:24.840 to just talk about

00:35:26.300 what an amazing gift it is.

00:35:28.280 You know,

00:35:28.460 who could have deserved

00:35:29.460 this kind of fellowship?

00:35:31.260 That's coming out

00:35:32.060 of the inklings.

00:35:32.640 That's in the chapter

00:35:33.540 in The Four Loves.

00:35:34.880 But of course,

00:35:35.680 the theme of friendship,

00:35:36.760 Brett,

00:35:37.220 it is central,

00:35:38.240 if you think about it,

00:35:39.220 to the Lord of the Rings

00:35:40.220 and to the Chronicles of Narnia.

00:35:42.020 And that is not accidental.

00:35:43.460 The intense camaraderie

00:35:45.080 that these men felt

00:35:46.380 when they fought

00:35:47.300 in the First World War

00:35:48.140 with their comrades,

00:35:49.040 I think they wanted

00:35:49.980 to recapture

00:35:50.680 something like that.

00:35:51.940 And so they were always

00:35:52.900 forming these reading groups.

00:35:54.880 And then the inklings

00:35:55.620 became the great haven

00:35:57.160 of sanity,

00:35:57.980 a beachhead of resistance,

00:35:59.440 I like to call it,

00:36:00.720 against the cultural darkness

00:36:02.240 and madness

00:36:02.920 and rage of the day.

00:36:04.960 And I was impressed

00:36:05.820 they kept it up

00:36:06.640 even during the darkest

00:36:07.760 moments of World War II.

00:36:09.500 I mean,

00:36:09.680 they could have said,

00:36:10.420 you know,

00:36:10.660 look,

00:36:11.480 there's some bigger,

00:36:12.220 more important things going on.

00:36:13.460 London's getting bombed

00:36:14.340 every night.

00:36:15.720 Do we really need

00:36:16.400 to get together

00:36:16.940 in a writing group

00:36:18.240 and drink beer?

00:36:19.720 But they're like,

00:36:20.100 no,

00:36:20.300 we have to do that.

00:36:21.940 Yeah,

00:36:22.200 I think that's right.

00:36:23.540 It's like,

00:36:24.600 they felt that

00:36:26.220 it was essential

00:36:26.920 probably for them

00:36:27.820 in their own emotional,

00:36:29.340 intellectual,

00:36:30.000 maybe spiritual lives.

00:36:31.120 But I think they thought

00:36:32.640 there's something necessary here

00:36:34.520 in the writing

00:36:35.140 that we're going to do.

00:36:35.900 They couldn't have

00:36:36.480 possibly imagined

00:36:37.280 the impact

00:36:37.840 that their writing

00:36:38.560 was going to have.

00:36:39.400 But let me read you

00:36:40.060 a few lines

00:36:40.640 from one of the students

00:36:41.520 because it speaks

00:36:42.140 to your point here,

00:36:42.840 Brett.

00:36:43.280 One of the students

00:36:44.180 of Tolkien and Lewis

00:36:45.800 describing the impact

00:36:47.560 that these men

00:36:48.380 had on her,

00:36:49.840 on her generation

00:36:50.840 as they're teaching

00:36:51.720 in the classroom,

00:36:52.520 as they're going back

00:36:53.500 to these great classic works,

00:36:55.460 you know,

00:36:56.080 Homer,

00:36:57.120 Virgil,

00:36:57.900 Dante,

00:36:58.240 Milton,

00:36:59.260 the need

00:36:59.860 to reintroduce

00:37:01.160 these concepts

00:37:01.880 in the modern era

00:37:03.240 for the modern mind.

00:37:04.060 Here's a few lines

00:37:04.880 from Helen Wheeler.

00:37:06.940 She says this,

00:37:07.920 what this meant

00:37:08.700 for my generation

00:37:09.800 of English language

00:37:11.360 and literature undergraduates

00:37:12.880 was what happened

00:37:14.320 in the great books

00:37:15.540 was of equal significance

00:37:17.380 to what happened

00:37:18.620 in life.

00:37:19.800 Indeed,

00:37:20.880 they were the same.

00:37:22.380 Now think about that.

00:37:23.840 What,

00:37:24.260 what a profound thing

00:37:25.820 to say

00:37:26.360 from this young woman.

00:37:27.200 What happened

00:37:27.860 in the great books

00:37:28.640 was of equal significance

00:37:30.340 to what happened

00:37:30.960 in real life.

00:37:31.580 In other words,

00:37:32.840 the great books

00:37:33.400 are great books

00:37:33.960 because they embody

00:37:34.820 the human condition.

00:37:35.840 They teach us

00:37:36.780 great truths

00:37:37.700 about human life

00:37:39.300 and human experience,

00:37:40.740 the good,

00:37:41.300 the bad,

00:37:41.600 and the ugly.

00:37:42.460 And those ideals,

00:37:43.860 the highest ideals

00:37:44.880 that are expressed

00:37:45.480 in those great books,

00:37:46.500 they were needed

00:37:47.600 at that moment of crisis.

00:37:49.540 That's what I think

00:37:50.360 Helen Wheeler

00:37:51.440 is understanding.

00:37:52.660 We needed to be reminded

00:37:53.900 of these incredible

00:37:55.340 struggles

00:37:56.060 and virtues

00:37:57.040 at this moment

00:37:58.240 of existential crisis.

00:38:00.020 Another quote

00:38:00.360 that stands out to me

00:38:01.280 from C.S. Lewis

00:38:02.200 talking about

00:38:03.000 why you should

00:38:03.980 just keep doing

00:38:04.540 normal things

00:38:05.240 when everything else

00:38:06.240 around you

00:38:06.780 just seems like

00:38:07.200 it's going crazy.

00:38:08.640 This is shortly

00:38:09.360 after the atomic bomb

00:38:10.460 was dropped

00:38:10.880 and everyone's

00:38:11.400 kind of freaking out

00:38:12.040 about nuclear apocalypse.

00:38:14.340 C.S. Lewis said this,

00:38:15.620 if we are going

00:38:16.880 to be destroyed

00:38:17.460 by an atomic bomb,

00:38:18.920 let that bomb

00:38:19.620 when it comes

00:38:20.360 find us doing

00:38:21.340 sensible and human things,

00:38:23.080 praying,

00:38:24.220 working,

00:38:25.040 teaching,

00:38:25.760 reading,

00:38:26.660 listening to music,

00:38:27.700 bathing the children,

00:38:28.560 playing tennis,

00:38:29.700 chatting to our friends

00:38:30.640 over a pint

00:38:31.260 and a game of darts,

00:38:32.720 not huddled together

00:38:33.780 like frightened sheep

00:38:34.720 and thinking about bombs.

00:38:36.580 Yes.

00:38:37.100 Wow.

00:38:37.460 That's a beautiful line.

00:38:38.600 And it was so consistent

00:38:39.720 in his life,

00:38:40.780 Brett.

00:38:41.260 And he lived that way.

00:38:42.520 And the only way

00:38:43.660 we can understand

00:38:44.480 his incredible productivity,

00:38:46.160 particularly during

00:38:46.800 the Second World War,

00:38:47.840 which I'm trying to emphasize

00:38:48.740 in the book,

00:38:49.620 is the sense of urgency.

00:38:52.000 It's not fatalism,

00:38:53.380 but it is a sense of urgency.

00:38:54.860 They've got to get on

00:38:55.700 with their callings

00:38:56.440 in the worst possible circumstances.

00:38:59.460 And you're probably familiar,

00:39:00.700 Brett,

00:39:00.900 with that incredible sermon

00:39:02.160 that he delivered,

00:39:02.940 Learning in Wartime.

00:39:04.340 This is within a few weeks

00:39:05.480 after Germany invades Poland

00:39:07.660 and it's the beginning

00:39:08.300 of the Second World War.

00:39:09.560 And they're expecting

00:39:10.760 a German invasion.

00:39:12.160 At any moment.

00:39:13.460 And he speaks to these

00:39:14.440 very anxious undergraduates

00:39:17.140 in church.

00:39:18.620 And Learning in Wartime

00:39:19.460 has a very similar theme

00:39:20.900 that if we wait

00:39:22.460 for the conditions

00:39:23.100 to be ideal

00:39:24.040 before we get down

00:39:24.960 to our work,

00:39:25.720 we'll never get to it.

00:39:27.020 Conditions are never ideal.

00:39:28.880 We've got to do our best

00:39:29.940 and leave the results to God.

00:39:31.360 It's a profound reflection

00:39:32.680 on calling,

00:39:33.760 on Christian calling,

00:39:34.980 echoed in the passage

00:39:36.100 you read as well, Brett.

00:39:37.120 Yeah, I think that's good advice

00:39:38.120 for us now

00:39:39.180 because a lot of people

00:39:40.720 are anxious these days.

00:39:42.380 Like, they've kind of

00:39:43.080 put their life on hold

00:39:44.020 because they feel

00:39:44.800 stymied by uncertainty.

00:39:46.660 But you can't let that

00:39:47.320 defeat you.

00:39:47.780 You have to keep

00:39:48.360 getting on with life.

00:39:49.300 You have to keep doing

00:39:50.040 those human things.

00:39:51.980 You have to keep doing

00:39:52.680 those things you feel

00:39:53.480 called to.

00:39:54.640 Yes.

00:39:55.180 And also,

00:39:56.280 think about this for Lewis.

00:39:57.740 He had this profound sense

00:39:59.020 of the need

00:39:59.700 to communicate

00:40:00.420 the truths of Christianity

00:40:02.060 to as broad an audience

00:40:03.960 as possible.

00:40:04.580 So when he's approached

00:40:05.920 by the religious

00:40:06.860 programming director

00:40:07.920 at the BBC

00:40:08.700 and they ask him,

00:40:10.940 look, give us an explanation

00:40:12.460 in the defense of Christianity

00:40:13.760 in a series of radio broadcasts.

00:40:15.840 We'll give you 15 minutes

00:40:16.940 at a time.

00:40:18.720 Lewis doesn't even listen

00:40:19.580 to the radio.

00:40:20.440 He's completely out

00:40:21.480 of his comfort zone.

00:40:22.360 He's an academic, right?

00:40:23.340 He's an egghead.

00:40:24.660 He has no necessary skill

00:40:27.120 writing for radio,

00:40:28.520 but he agrees.

00:40:30.420 And so he travels down

00:40:31.680 from Oxford by train

00:40:32.700 into London

00:40:33.300 and that was not without risk.

00:40:35.740 The city's still being bombed.

00:40:37.100 The BBC had been bombed

00:40:38.320 and he starts delivering

00:40:39.900 these incredible addresses

00:40:41.940 unpacking the meaning

00:40:44.140 and significance

00:40:44.860 of the Christian faith.

00:40:45.840 And do you know

00:40:46.160 the first line

00:40:47.100 in the first broadcast

00:40:48.360 which became the first line

00:40:50.200 in Mere Christianity?

00:40:52.320 The broadcast became

00:40:53.780 the book Mere Christianity,

00:40:54.840 but the opening line,

00:40:56.060 you know what it was, Brett?

00:40:57.060 What was it?

00:40:58.140 Everyone has heard

00:40:59.220 people quarreling.

00:41:01.320 Everyone has heard

00:41:02.140 people quarreling.

00:41:03.580 Now, why does he start there

00:41:04.900 in Anglican England

00:41:06.560 in 1941?

00:41:08.580 When people quarrel, Brett,

00:41:10.420 they're arguing over

00:41:11.820 a standard of behavior

00:41:14.220 that the other guy

00:41:15.440 has violated.

00:41:16.840 You know,

00:41:17.140 you took something

00:41:17.880 that didn't belong to you.

00:41:19.540 You cut me off in line.

00:41:21.220 That wasn't fair.

00:41:22.280 That wasn't right.

00:41:23.020 We're always appealing

00:41:24.020 to a standard

00:41:24.780 outside of ourselves

00:41:25.800 and we violate

00:41:26.680 those standards ourselves.

00:41:27.920 Lewis's point is

00:41:28.720 that is the clue

00:41:30.560 to the meaning

00:41:31.220 of the universe.

00:41:31.780 This is the moral law

00:41:33.440 that we all know,

00:41:34.720 a moral law

00:41:35.660 that presses down upon us

00:41:37.300 that we can't escape,

00:41:39.000 that we know

00:41:39.640 we ought to obey,

00:41:40.780 and yet we violate it.

00:41:42.160 That's the clue

00:41:42.920 to the meaning

00:41:43.380 of the universe.

00:41:43.960 So what is he doing?

00:41:44.820 He's reintroducing

00:41:46.240 moral truth

00:41:47.540 and a moral law

00:41:48.680 at a time

00:41:49.740 when moral absolutes

00:41:51.780 and the moral

00:41:52.620 disintegration

00:41:53.740 of Western civilization,

00:41:55.940 it's all up in the air.

00:41:57.940 It's all up for grabs

00:41:59.100 right now,

00:41:59.740 it seems, Brad,

00:42:00.540 but he is pushing back

00:42:01.880 as best he can.

00:42:03.220 So he starts there

00:42:04.120 with the moral law.

00:42:05.040 He will take the audience

00:42:06.180 ultimately to Jesus

00:42:07.220 as the great savior,

00:42:08.720 but he doesn't start there.

00:42:10.360 He starts with

00:42:10.920 the universal moral law.

00:42:12.580 Yeah, he called it the Tao.

00:42:13.900 The Tao, yes.

00:42:14.620 The Tao, yeah.

00:42:15.440 Well, so you mentioned

00:42:16.280 speaking to C.S. Lewis

00:42:17.100 and how the war

00:42:18.180 influenced these guys works,

00:42:19.800 that we wouldn't have

00:42:21.380 the Lion, the Witch,

00:42:22.220 and the Wardrobe

00:42:22.880 if it weren't for

00:42:23.940 the London Blitz.

00:42:25.020 So tell us about that.

00:42:26.000 What was Lewis's connection

00:42:26.980 to the evacuees

00:42:28.380 during the London Blitz?

00:42:29.580 Yeah, I mean,

00:42:30.220 within days

00:42:30.980 of the evacuation,

00:42:32.480 four girls show up

00:42:33.760 in his house.

00:42:34.520 He's there with,

00:42:35.140 he lives there

00:42:35.600 with his brother Warnie

00:42:36.600 and Mrs. Moore

00:42:37.520 that he's taking care of

00:42:39.140 and these four girls

00:42:40.740 come into the home

00:42:41.460 and immediately

00:42:43.820 his life is turned

00:42:45.380 upside down

00:42:46.340 and he writes

00:42:47.840 to his friend's

00:42:48.580 sister Penelope

00:42:49.360 and says,

00:42:50.340 you know,

00:42:50.740 I never paid

00:42:51.840 much attention

00:42:52.420 to children,

00:42:53.060 don't really even like them,

00:42:54.140 but now the war

00:42:55.240 has brought them to me

00:42:56.360 and not only

00:42:58.200 do they have

00:42:58.960 a profound influence

00:42:59.900 on Lewis,

00:43:00.420 I mean,

00:43:00.600 think about it,

00:43:01.200 he will then go on

00:43:02.260 to write

00:43:02.800 one of the most

00:43:04.500 beloved series

00:43:06.040 of children's books

00:43:07.080 that has ever been produced.

00:43:08.880 A confirmed bachelor

00:43:10.040 who doesn't like

00:43:10.880 the company of children

00:43:11.880 learns to somehow

00:43:13.600 get into their world

00:43:15.040 and to empathize

00:43:16.640 with them

00:43:17.120 and to help them

00:43:18.320 to understand

00:43:18.980 here's what it means

00:43:20.320 to be a good

00:43:21.000 and decent

00:43:21.500 and virtuous person,

00:43:22.720 even a person of faith.

00:43:24.040 That's a transformation

00:43:25.020 in Lewis's life

00:43:26.000 and that ability

00:43:28.060 to communicate

00:43:28.860 to children

00:43:29.800 about children,

00:43:30.840 to get into

00:43:31.260 their emotional worlds,

00:43:32.380 that would not have happened

00:43:33.800 without the Blitz

00:43:34.480 because children

00:43:35.120 are not just showing up

00:43:36.020 in the first weeks,

00:43:37.100 they're staying with them

00:43:38.240 for weeks at a time

00:43:39.660 and then another batch

00:43:40.660 of children would come in

00:43:41.700 when the first batch

00:43:42.600 is ready to go.

00:43:44.460 It's amazing.

00:43:45.640 Yeah.

00:43:46.220 Something I,

00:43:47.040 people talk about

00:43:47.740 the difference between

00:43:48.440 Tolkien and Lewis

00:43:49.700 and how they approach

00:43:50.520 using myth,

00:43:51.940 fantasy stories

00:43:53.040 to teach virtue.

00:43:55.080 Lewis is a little bit

00:43:55.820 on the nose about it,

00:43:57.040 right?

00:43:57.240 You can read

00:43:58.000 the Chronicles of Narnia

00:43:59.200 and like,

00:43:59.540 okay, Aslan,

00:44:00.340 that's Jesus,

00:44:01.340 obvious.

00:44:02.340 Tolkien was a little bit

00:44:03.460 more subtle

00:44:04.800 about his symbolism

00:44:06.440 in his work.

00:44:07.460 Much more, yes.

00:44:08.660 Much more, Brad,

00:44:09.420 and I think

00:44:09.840 I can speculate a bit

00:44:12.060 at the reasons for this.

00:44:13.820 Part of it,

00:44:14.500 I think,

00:44:14.940 was Tolkien

00:44:16.080 had been a Catholic

00:44:17.060 for really

00:44:18.840 all of his adult life.

00:44:20.380 There wasn't

00:44:20.820 a dramatic conversion

00:44:22.100 to Catholicism

00:44:23.780 for him

00:44:24.240 and he was

00:44:25.280 a profoundly serious

00:44:26.740 believing Catholic

00:44:28.220 and it just shaped him

00:44:29.960 in so many ways,

00:44:30.820 his outlook.

00:44:31.680 It's embedded

00:44:32.300 in his outlook.

00:44:33.860 C.S. Lewis

00:44:34.300 has a dramatic conversion

00:44:35.440 from atheism

00:44:36.280 into Christianity

00:44:37.600 so there's more

00:44:38.660 of the apologist,

00:44:40.520 maybe not so much

00:44:41.100 the evangelist,

00:44:41.960 although you could

00:44:42.600 use that word,

00:44:43.220 but certainly

00:44:43.560 the defender

00:44:44.280 of the faith,

00:44:44.940 the man who wants

00:44:45.480 to communicate

00:44:46.080 this truth

00:44:46.720 because he knows

00:44:47.840 what it's like

00:44:48.280 to be in the darkness.

00:44:49.260 It's very vivid to him

00:44:50.560 passing from that darkness

00:44:52.080 into the light

00:44:52.960 of the gospel

00:44:53.500 and so I think

00:44:55.080 Lewis was more willing

00:44:56.320 and ready

00:44:57.300 to use imagery

00:44:58.340 that would more

00:44:59.560 clearly suggest

00:45:01.260 Christian truths,

00:45:03.020 Christian symbolism

00:45:03.920 and Tolkien didn't feel

00:45:05.380 the need to do that

00:45:06.160 but Lewis did,

00:45:06.980 I think,

00:45:07.180 because of his

00:45:07.560 conversion experience.

00:45:09.100 That's my,

00:45:09.780 a little bit of

00:45:10.480 speculation there

00:45:11.340 but I think

00:45:12.140 it's probably right.

00:45:13.760 Now, I will say this,

00:45:14.660 Tolkien,

00:45:15.880 when he published

00:45:16.680 The Lord of the Rings,

00:45:17.700 it comes out

00:45:18.140 in the 1950s finally

00:45:19.320 and it's the atomic bomb

00:45:21.600 is, you know,

00:45:22.200 is out and about

00:45:23.480 as we say, right?

00:45:25.420 And a lot of people

00:45:26.920 assume that the ring

00:45:28.820 is just an allegory,

00:45:30.740 the whole thing

00:45:31.080 is an allegory

00:45:31.780 for, you know,

00:45:32.340 a warning against

00:45:33.140 the atomic bomb

00:45:34.220 and Tolkien sets them right.

00:45:36.220 He says,

00:45:36.680 of course my story

00:45:37.780 is not an allegory

00:45:39.240 of atomic power

00:45:40.480 but of power

00:45:41.980 exerted for domination.

00:45:44.660 Power exerted

00:45:45.640 for domination.

00:45:46.680 That is one

00:45:47.740 of the central themes

00:45:48.800 of course

00:45:49.240 in The Lord of the Rings.

00:45:50.760 If you go to

00:45:51.240 the Council of Elrond

00:45:52.400 it is a morally

00:45:53.900 complex,

00:45:55.100 rich,

00:45:56.020 thick discussion

00:45:56.860 about the nature

00:45:57.960 of power

00:45:58.860 and the corrupting

00:46:00.220 influence

00:46:00.720 of the temptation

00:46:02.000 to power

00:46:03.180 and that is

00:46:04.100 deeply embedded

00:46:05.460 I would argue

00:46:06.260 in Tolkien's

00:46:07.220 Catholic Christian faith.

00:46:09.740 So another thing

00:46:10.140 that Tolkien worked on

00:46:11.280 during World War II

00:46:12.040 besides

00:46:12.500 The Lord of the Rings

00:46:13.900 this was for his family

00:46:15.620 for his children

00:46:16.260 is these

00:46:16.640 Father Christmas

00:46:17.500 stories

00:46:18.520 and you could see

00:46:20.280 World War II

00:46:21.320 pop up in these

00:46:22.260 Father Christmas stories.

00:46:23.800 Tell us about that

00:46:24.440 and I think

00:46:24.920 these are available

00:46:25.660 like these are published now

00:46:26.700 I think you can buy these now

00:46:27.940 and read these stories.

00:46:29.320 Yes.

00:46:29.960 Yeah.

00:46:30.460 There's an entire collection

00:46:31.600 I think his

00:46:32.220 granddaughter

00:46:34.500 one of his granddaughters

00:46:35.340 had pulled this together.

00:46:36.740 It's a lovely collection

00:46:37.960 illustrated.

00:46:38.820 Tolkien would

00:46:39.300 early on

00:46:40.380 when he had his children

00:46:41.120 he wrote these

00:46:42.300 Christmas letters

00:46:43.140 Father Christmas

00:46:43.760 and illustrated them

00:46:44.820 put them in the mailbox

00:46:45.920 and the kids are thinking

00:46:46.940 they're getting a letter

00:46:47.740 from Father Christmas

00:46:48.920 and they're very whimsical

00:46:50.420 you know

00:46:50.860 throughout the 1920s

00:46:52.140 these whimsical stories

00:46:53.500 of Father Christmas

00:46:54.300 and the polar bear

00:46:55.360 and their mischievous adventures

00:46:57.040 and all this

00:46:57.620 and then they take a turn

00:46:59.320 even as early as 1933

00:47:01.260 the year that

00:47:02.420 Hitler comes to power

00:47:03.780 they take a turn

00:47:04.900 where the appearance

00:47:06.180 of goblins

00:47:07.160 and the goblins

00:47:08.200 of course

00:47:08.580 these are wicked creatures

00:47:09.760 they'll have a role

00:47:10.600 to play in the Lord

00:47:11.320 of the Rings

00:47:11.760 but they are these

00:47:12.880 dark wicked creatures

00:47:13.920 now entering the scene

00:47:15.700 of Father Christmas

00:47:16.560 and so by the time

00:47:17.360 you get to the letters

00:47:18.100 I think from 1941

00:47:19.200 Christmas 1941

00:47:20.360 Tolkien writes

00:47:22.380 to his daughter

00:47:22.900 Priscilla

00:47:23.380 the youngest

00:47:24.020 Father Christmas again

00:47:25.520 and he's talking about

00:47:27.120 how there's been

00:47:28.080 incredible battle

00:47:29.080 and many people

00:47:30.480 have been killed

00:47:31.200 and half the world

00:47:33.560 is no longer

00:47:34.740 in the right place

00:47:36.000 because so many people

00:47:37.220 have been displaced

00:47:38.180 and Father Christmas

00:47:39.240 can't deliver presents

00:47:40.320 the way he used to

00:47:41.080 because half the world

00:47:41.800 is in the wrong place

00:47:42.600 well he's describing

00:47:44.100 exactly what has

00:47:45.240 been happening

00:47:45.940 of course in Europe

00:47:46.760 with the mass evacuations

00:47:48.760 the evacuees

00:47:49.880 by the millions

00:47:51.000 so he can't escape the war

00:47:53.080 even in a Father Christmas letter

00:47:55.120 to his daughter Priscilla

00:47:56.300 wow

00:47:56.860 yeah and so

00:47:57.800 we've talked about

00:47:58.720 some examples

00:47:59.320 of how World War II

00:48:00.520 was influencing

00:48:01.820 Tolkien's and Lewis's work

00:48:03.140 so Tolkien

00:48:04.000 he wrote a lot of

00:48:05.020 Lord of the Rings

00:48:05.500 during the war

00:48:06.120 and he was influenced

00:48:07.480 by this epic clash

00:48:09.460 of good and evil

00:48:10.520 and the heroism

00:48:12.080 that was called upon

00:48:12.800 during the war

00:48:13.360 and then the first

00:48:14.580 in that Lord of the Rings

00:48:15.480 series would be published

00:48:16.320 in the 1950s

00:48:17.480 yeah

00:48:17.960 and then you got

00:48:18.540 C.S. Lewis

00:48:19.140 he's doing his apologetics

00:48:21.000 his lectures

00:48:22.440 his broadcast

00:48:23.680 the BBC asked him

00:48:24.940 to do for morale

00:48:25.800 he's doing that

00:48:26.860 during the war

00:48:27.460 and those lectures

00:48:28.760 and those broadcasts

00:48:29.700 would eventually become

00:48:30.560 mere Christianity

00:48:31.300 and that was published

00:48:32.300 in the 1950s

00:48:33.700 and then during this time

00:48:34.920 Lewis is also writing

00:48:35.960 the Chronicles of Narnia

00:48:37.060 and he was inspired

00:48:38.380 by the kids

00:48:39.020 who came to live with him

00:48:39.940 during the Blitz

00:48:40.640 so these works

00:48:41.900 that both men

00:48:42.440 were famous for

00:48:43.220 in the post-war period

00:48:44.440 the foundations for them

00:48:45.980 were really laid

00:48:46.640 during World War II

00:48:47.500 and what I think

00:48:48.520 is interesting

00:48:49.020 about these guys

00:48:49.680 when you talk about them

00:48:51.100 they both have

00:48:52.460 first-hand experience

00:48:53.480 with war

00:48:53.940 and they were influenced

00:48:54.980 by it in their creative work

00:48:56.280 but they were also

00:48:57.380 really appalled by it

00:48:58.600 like Tolkien talks about

00:48:59.820 not just the human destruction

00:49:01.020 but the environmental destruction

00:49:02.900 I think that's something

00:49:03.700 that Tolkien really focuses on

00:49:05.280 and is overlooked

00:49:05.920 in his work

00:49:06.560 he's really appalled

00:49:07.960 by the destruction

00:49:08.820 that war does

00:49:09.780 to our natural environment

00:49:11.960 exactly right

00:49:12.880 so they saw war firsthand

00:49:14.420 but they still thought

00:49:16.300 that violence

00:49:16.820 was sometimes necessary

00:49:18.220 to defend the good

00:49:19.520 and the true

00:49:20.040 how do they walk

00:49:21.320 that tension

00:49:21.940 in their work

00:49:23.020 Boy that is a fabulous question

00:49:24.760 Brett

00:49:24.960 because they are not

00:49:25.900 holy warriors

00:49:27.020 there's no triumphalism

00:49:29.320 in their works

00:49:30.820 their heroes

00:49:31.820 are reluctant heroes

00:49:32.960 quite often

00:49:33.660 and they're filled

00:49:35.100 with anxiety

00:49:35.760 and self-doubt

00:49:36.700 you know

00:49:37.240 Bilbo Baggins

00:49:38.380 is a modern hero

00:49:39.880 isn't he

00:49:40.380 in some ways

00:49:41.100 does he help the company

00:49:42.400 or does he find

00:49:43.640 a way of escape

00:49:44.480 and again

00:49:45.960 it's not an accident

00:49:46.700 that Lewis chooses

00:49:47.820 children

00:49:48.440 as the protagonist

00:49:49.640 and includes

00:49:50.760 a mouse

00:49:51.260 named Reepycheep

00:49:52.280 so the whole

00:49:54.080 concept of the heroic

00:49:55.620 they are reinventing

00:49:57.040 as well

00:49:57.600 it's

00:49:58.580 boy what can we say

00:50:01.100 there Brett

00:50:01.600 it's so counter-cultural

00:50:03.180 what they're doing

00:50:04.000 that they want to hang on

00:50:05.440 to this concept

00:50:06.100 of the heroic

00:50:06.800 but they know

00:50:08.020 that triumphalism

00:50:09.620 is just not

00:50:10.460 it's not tenable

00:50:11.620 no one's going to buy this

00:50:13.060 and they've

00:50:13.980 in their own experience

00:50:14.940 they can't either

00:50:15.820 from their own experience

00:50:16.540 in the first world war

00:50:17.480 and I think

00:50:17.980 from their religious perspective

00:50:19.180 so there's a realism

00:50:21.000 about human frailty

00:50:22.720 but there's also

00:50:23.540 a realism

00:50:24.080 about the nature

00:50:25.000 of evil

00:50:25.580 and the existence

00:50:26.580 of radical evil

00:50:27.740 and the idea

00:50:29.120 of a just war

00:50:30.240 even though

00:50:30.880 those words

00:50:31.620 are not used

00:50:32.460 in their writings

00:50:33.640 they really are

00:50:34.680 representing

00:50:35.180 the just war tradition

00:50:36.320 in other words

00:50:36.920 the use of lethal force

00:50:39.300 to protect the innocent

00:50:41.180 from great harm

00:50:42.780 that is one of the

00:50:43.980 key themes

00:50:44.540 isn't it

00:50:44.980 in both their works

00:50:46.280 and I think

00:50:47.720 having a ringside seat

00:50:49.400 as they did

00:50:50.100 in Great Britain

00:50:51.180 from 1939

00:50:52.240 to 1945

00:50:53.460 pacifism

00:50:54.880 and neutrality

00:50:55.700 was simply

00:50:56.560 not an option

00:50:57.280 because they

00:50:57.800 they could see

00:50:58.460 what was happening

00:50:59.060 to those nations

00:50:59.980 that supposedly

00:51:00.600 claimed neutrality

00:51:01.660 and then were overrun

00:51:02.740 by the Nazis

00:51:03.300 within a matter of months

00:51:04.640 yeah

00:51:05.520 that's a tough tension

00:51:06.700 to walk

00:51:07.220 to find war

00:51:08.620 appalling

00:51:09.240 but also

00:51:09.980 feel that sometimes

00:51:11.420 it's necessary

00:51:12.060 yes

00:51:12.760 and I think

00:51:13.440 it really is expressed

00:51:15.060 in the characters

00:51:16.160 and their reluctance

00:51:17.940 to engage

00:51:19.020 in this great battle

00:51:20.100 but then

00:51:20.560 their conscience

00:51:21.860 they can't escape

00:51:22.980 their conscience

00:51:23.620 and the need

00:51:24.580 of the hour

00:51:25.180 and so Aslan

00:51:26.500 in the Chronicles

00:51:27.360 of Narnia

00:51:27.820 you know

00:51:28.080 he's got these children

00:51:29.560 he calls these children

00:51:30.980 summons them

00:51:31.820 into a battle

00:51:33.100 he doesn't leave them

00:51:34.200 on their own

00:51:34.900 but he summons them

00:51:36.400 into this battle

00:51:37.200 and as you read

00:51:38.420 the text

00:51:38.920 this is what's so

00:51:39.800 profoundly striking

00:51:41.120 about the Chronicles

00:51:42.460 of Narnia

00:51:42.760 the battle scenes

00:51:43.800 they're vivid

00:51:45.120 they're not inappropriate

00:51:46.560 for young people

00:51:47.340 necessarily

00:51:47.800 but they're vivid

00:51:48.640 it's what

00:51:49.120 it would have been like

00:51:50.540 to be in a hand-to-hand

00:51:51.540 kind of combat

00:51:52.520 and Lewis wants to give

00:51:53.500 that realism

00:51:54.200 and the anxiety

00:51:56.140 and the struggle

00:51:57.100 and the fear

00:51:57.760 all of that is mixed in

00:51:59.220 in their writings

00:52:00.200 Tolkien and Lewis both

00:52:01.180 they don't shy away

00:52:02.340 from a horror of combat

00:52:04.120 one bit

00:52:05.000 and yet they want to insist

00:52:06.180 that wait a minute

00:52:06.740 evil has to be challenged

00:52:09.200 we see that in Beowulf

00:52:10.640 we see it in the Aeneid

00:52:12.200 we see it in the great works

00:52:13.840 of the classical

00:52:14.800 Christian tradition

00:52:15.620 so both these men

00:52:17.680 Tolkien and C.S. Lewis

00:52:18.900 they basically laid

00:52:20.880 the groundwork

00:52:21.840 for fantasy novels

00:52:23.520 in the 20th

00:52:24.500 and 21st century

00:52:25.420 yes

00:52:25.940 but how did their

00:52:26.660 wartime experiences

00:52:27.660 both World War I

00:52:28.840 and World War II

00:52:29.640 how did that make

00:52:31.180 their fantasy stories

00:52:32.380 different from

00:52:33.140 the modern fantasy novels

00:52:34.840 that kids might be

00:52:35.520 reading today

00:52:36.020 yeah that is a

00:52:37.420 fabulous question

00:52:38.100 I mean one of the

00:52:39.240 criticisms that you

00:52:40.340 sometimes hear

00:52:41.080 about these guys

00:52:41.860 is that they were

00:52:43.440 they were writing

00:52:44.000 escapist literature

00:52:44.980 if it's fantasy

00:52:45.660 it must be escapist

00:52:46.720 escape the difficult

00:52:48.000 problems and challenges

00:52:49.160 of life

00:52:49.640 and what Tolkien and Lewis

00:52:50.940 both said in different ways

00:52:52.460 both in their writings

00:52:53.320 and even in some of their letters

00:52:54.420 this isn't escapism

00:52:56.100 this is the opposite

00:52:57.380 of escapism

00:52:58.200 because what these stories

00:52:59.800 do is

00:53:00.380 they expose

00:53:01.700 the darkness

00:53:02.600 of the human condition

00:53:03.580 and they point us

00:53:05.020 toward the virtues

00:53:06.580 the values and ideals

00:53:08.660 that are required

00:53:09.620 to meet the darkness

00:53:11.420 that we encounter

00:53:12.300 in life

00:53:12.960 and that is not

00:53:14.180 escapism

00:53:14.720 I'll give you a personal

00:53:15.420 example of this

00:53:16.100 Brad I didn't start

00:53:16.880 reading the Lord of the Rings

00:53:17.860 until I was in my 40s

00:53:19.400 I was working on my

00:53:20.560 doctoral dissertation

00:53:21.480 on John Locke

00:53:22.580 studying in the UK

00:53:23.660 there in London

00:53:24.720 reading Locke

00:53:25.660 during the day

00:53:26.400 and then reading

00:53:27.360 Tolkien at night

00:53:28.280 in an English pub

00:53:29.120 it doesn't get any

00:53:29.680 better than that

00:53:30.260 right

00:53:30.520 so here I am

00:53:31.800 in my mid 40s

00:53:32.700 and I'm reading

00:53:33.160 the Lord of the Rings

00:53:33.700 for the first time

00:53:34.380 and I'm finding myself

00:53:35.520 morally invigorated

00:53:38.080 invigorated

00:53:39.180 wanting to take on

00:53:40.400 the challenges

00:53:41.020 of the day

00:53:41.900 of my life

00:53:42.640 with a new kind

00:53:43.620 of courage

00:53:44.140 and strength

00:53:44.800 and resilience

00:53:45.780 if you're thinking

00:53:47.380 about the ideas

00:53:48.820 of virtue

00:53:49.780 and honesty

00:53:50.740 and sacrifice

00:53:51.820 for a noble cause

00:53:52.980 well this is not

00:53:54.320 escapism

00:53:54.940 this is what makes

00:53:55.680 life meaningful

00:53:56.540 this speaks to our

00:53:57.740 deepest aspirations

00:53:58.840 as men and women

00:54:00.160 as people with a soul

00:54:01.300 and so it's the

00:54:02.660 opposite of escapism

00:54:03.800 and I think that's

00:54:04.880 part of what they're

00:54:05.560 doing in an amazing

00:54:06.960 time when on one

00:54:08.800 hand there might

00:54:09.580 have been a kind

00:54:10.140 of militarism

00:54:11.780 utopianism on one

00:54:13.760 side or just

00:54:14.560 you know defeatism

00:54:15.560 we can't face this

00:54:16.500 horror and they're

00:54:17.560 saying no there's

00:54:18.560 this middle way

00:54:19.580 there's this middle

00:54:20.700 way it's a kind

00:54:22.140 of Christian realism

00:54:23.300 about life and how

00:54:24.920 to meet it

00:54:25.400 yeah I think one

00:54:26.440 thing you wrote in

00:54:27.060 the book a lot of

00:54:27.920 modern fantasy novels

00:54:28.980 today they're about

00:54:29.760 self-discovery but

00:54:31.740 the novels that

00:54:33.420 Tolkien and Lewis

00:54:34.260 wrote they're more

00:54:34.920 about you have to

00:54:35.740 just rise up the

00:54:36.340 occasion so you

00:54:37.000 protect others

00:54:37.720 and lift up

00:54:38.640 others

00:54:39.040 yes and that's

00:54:40.700 where again

00:54:41.180 Brett I want to

00:54:41.820 emphasize this

00:54:42.560 they're combining

00:54:44.620 the best of the

00:54:46.180 classical world

00:54:47.140 those ancient myths

00:54:48.780 a Greek Roman

00:54:50.260 mythology the

00:54:51.260 medieval world

00:54:52.160 Arthur and the

00:54:53.320 Knights of the

00:54:53.740 Round Table

00:54:54.300 Beowulf they're

00:54:55.820 building on that

00:54:56.860 foundation but then

00:54:58.020 they are very

00:54:58.660 deliberately giving

00:55:00.100 it a Christian

00:55:01.340 emphasis imbuing it

00:55:02.900 with Christian values

00:55:04.020 so that what these

00:55:05.700 heroes want is not

00:55:07.560 personal glory they

00:55:09.020 are willing to

00:55:09.600 sacrifice for this

00:55:11.000 greater cause so

00:55:11.980 think about the

00:55:12.720 whole story of the

00:55:13.720 ring itself the

00:55:15.520 hobbits are not on a

00:55:16.280 quest to gain

00:55:17.400 something of great

00:55:18.200 value some great

00:55:19.260 treasure chest the

00:55:20.600 whole point of the

00:55:21.520 quest is to destroy

00:55:22.720 it to destroy the

00:55:24.180 ring of power in

00:55:25.280 other words

00:55:25.680 renunciation and if

00:55:28.020 you think about the

00:55:28.620 time period the 1940s

00:55:30.280 the second world war

00:55:31.240 when the combatants

00:55:32.860 on both sides are

00:55:34.000 trying to acquire

00:55:35.000 weapons of mass

00:55:36.100 destruction that's

00:55:37.580 that's the mood of

00:55:39.340 the hour and here's

00:55:40.560 Tolkien writing a

00:55:41.360 story about

00:55:41.880 renunciation sacrifice

00:55:44.160 for others humility

00:55:45.860 now that's

00:55:46.880 countercultural that's

00:55:48.060 going against the

00:55:48.660 establishment in a

00:55:49.460 huge way

00:55:49.960 so these books were

00:55:52.580 written in a time

00:55:53.360 that's pretty different

00:55:54.620 from ours in 2025

00:55:56.220 but their stories still

00:55:57.820 resonate with

00:55:59.040 audiences today why

00:56:00.040 do you think that

00:56:00.480 is that is a

00:56:02.300 wonderful question I'm

00:56:03.300 still mulling that in

00:56:04.300 my in my head because

00:56:06.000 here we are talking

00:56:07.820 about them 80 plus

00:56:08.720 years later I think

00:56:10.220 there's several reasons

00:56:10.820 there's not a single

00:56:11.520 answer to this Brett but

00:56:12.840 I think there's several

00:56:13.480 reasons let me let me

00:56:14.260 quote you from a line

00:56:16.300 that Lewis wrote I

00:56:17.240 think it helps to give

00:56:17.940 an answer maybe after

00:56:19.600 Tolkien completed the

00:56:21.060 Lord of the Rings

00:56:21.740 Lewis has it now in

00:56:23.780 manuscript form and he

00:56:26.660 writes to Tolkien and he

00:56:28.280 tells him how delighted

00:56:29.240 he is to have it he'll

00:56:30.220 be going to read it and

00:56:31.040 reread it and then he

00:56:32.320 says this to Tolkien in

00:56:33.420 the letter about the

00:56:34.520 Lord of the Rings the

00:56:35.160 impact of it so much of

00:56:37.300 your whole life so much

00:56:39.160 of our joint life so much

00:56:41.520 of the war so much that

00:56:43.480 seemed to be slipping

00:56:44.600 away without a trace into

00:56:47.120 the past is now in a

00:56:49.700 sort made permanent I

00:56:53.000 think what Lewis is saying

00:56:54.640 that somehow what Tolkien

00:56:56.860 has done in the Lord of the

00:56:57.880 Rings he's captured their

00:56:59.480 common journey through

00:57:01.240 life with all of its

00:57:02.580 struggles and its joys

00:57:03.660 he's captured some of

00:57:04.820 that he's captured the

00:57:06.240 war experience and it's

00:57:08.180 hidden in the pages of

00:57:09.200 the Lord of the Rings so

00:57:10.640 it's a profoundly human

00:57:12.100 story profoundly human it's

00:57:14.400 so accessible and at the

00:57:16.300 same time it also speaks

00:57:17.900 to these universal

00:57:19.000 transcendent themes and

00:57:21.540 that's what they do in the

00:57:22.600 best of their works they're

00:57:24.220 accessible their characters

00:57:25.860 are like us they're not

00:57:27.680 the superheroes that we

00:57:29.180 create now in Marvel

00:57:30.300 comics they're hobbits

00:57:32.460 it's a mouse named

00:57:33.860 Reepy Cheep it's children

00:57:35.280 in a wardrobe they're

00:57:36.560 utterly accessible but

00:57:38.060 they're engaged in a real

00:57:39.500 struggle in the forces of

00:57:41.060 light the forces of

00:57:41.980 darkness and there's

00:57:43.400 something profoundly moving

00:57:45.040 and transcendent about

00:57:46.860 their works it just speaks

00:57:48.520 across cultures across

00:57:50.260 generations doesn't it

00:57:51.580 well Joseph this has been a

00:57:52.980 great conversation where

00:57:53.960 can people go to learn more

00:57:54.760 about the book in your

00:57:55.400 work well go to my

00:57:57.420 website that'd be the best

00:57:58.520 place to go www.josephloconte.com

00:58:02.940 you'll see where you can

00:58:04.200 buy the book you'll see

00:58:05.240 also my YouTube history

00:58:06.620 channel history and the

00:58:08.200 human story and we're

00:58:09.680 releasing some videos on

00:58:10.920 Tolkien and Lewis and other

00:58:12.060 things that we're working

00:58:12.860 on so love to have you

00:58:13.720 check out the site

00:58:14.780 fantastic well Joseph

00:58:16.140 Loconte thanks for time

00:58:16.940 it's been a pleasure

00:58:17.440 thank you Brett so good

00:58:18.980 being with you

00:58:19.620 my guest today was Joseph

00:58:21.640 Loconte he's the author of

00:58:22.840 the book The War for

00:58:23.620 Middle Earth it's available on

00:58:24.740 amazon.com and bookstores

00:58:25.920 everywhere you can find

00:58:27.080 more information about his

00:58:27.720 work at his website

00:58:28.520 josephloconte.com also check

00:58:30.720 out our show notes at

00:58:31.300 aom.is slash war for

00:58:32.820 middle earth we find links

00:58:33.800 to resources we delve deeper

00:58:35.000 into this topic

00:58:35.660 well that wraps up another

00:58:44.500 edition of the AOM podcast

00:58:45.640 make sure to check out our

00:58:46.540 website at artofmanliness.com

00:58:47.880 where you find our podcast

00:58:48.720 archives and while you're

00:58:49.940 there sign up for our free

00:58:51.020 art of manliness newsletter

00:58:52.120 we have a daily option and a

00:58:53.440 weekly option it's the best

00:58:54.620 way to stay on top of

00:58:55.300 what's going on at art of

00:58:56.160 manliness and if you haven't

00:58:57.260 done so already I'd

00:58:57.820 appreciate it if you take

00:58:58.520 one minute to give you an

00:58:59.320 up a podcast or Spotify it

00:59:00.500 helps out a lot if you've

00:59:01.460 done that already thank you

00:59:02.480 please consider sharing the

00:59:03.800 show with a friend or family

00:59:04.600 member you think with

00:59:05.340 something out of it as

00:59:06.540 always thanks for the

00:59:07.360 continued support until

00:59:08.100 next time it's Brett

00:59:08.720 McKay remind you I'm

00:59:09.900 listening on podcasts but

00:59:11.060 put what you've heard into

00:59:12.220 action before you go here's

00:59:31.100 another one to queue up next I

00:59:32.600 talked to Ben Aldridge about

00:59:33.700 his book seriously happy where

00:59:35.120 he takes the big ideas from

00:59:36.240 ancient philosophies like

00:59:37.180 Buddhism cynicism stoicism and

00:59:40.080 turns them into real doable

00:59:41.820 challenges for becoming a

00:59:43.040 better happier person we get

00:59:45.380 into everything from

00:59:45.920 cultivating virtue to walking

00:59:47.220 a banana and taking a

00:59:48.520 wu-wei adventure it's fun

00:59:50.300 practical and surprisingly

00:59:51.960 deep you can check it out at

00:59:53.620 aom.is slash seriously happy

00:59:56.320 again that's aom.is slash

00:59:58.560 seriously happy

The Art of Manliness - November 18, 2025

How the World Wars Shaped J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis

Episode Stats

Length

Words per Minute

Word Count

Sentence Count

Misogynist Sentences

Hate Speech Sentences

Summary

Transcript