If you ve ever waited, and perhaps are now currently waiting, to hear whether or not you ve tested positive for disease, passed medical boards, or got the job you interviewed for, you know that this period of uncertainty can be filled with tension and anxiety. In this episode, Dr. Kate Sweeney, a professor of psychology, has studied the dynamics of this human experience, and how we can best deal with it. We first discuss why the stress of waiting for uncertain news feels particularly uncomfortable, and what types of people are more likely to worry while waiting. Kate then shares tactics that can help alleviate some of the worry of waiting, including leaning into being a pessimist as you approach the moment of truth and finding flow even by playing Tetris. Finally, she explains at what point the social support for people who are waiting for news tends to wane, so you can better support those around you who are currently stuck in the state of mind-burdening limbo.
00:10:20.860Waiting is not easy for people who are high in neuroticism either.
00:10:23.460People who are more optimistic, so kind of dispositionally, naturally excited about the future, thinks the best will happen.
00:10:30.840Even if the best doesn't happen, it probably will be okay anyway.
00:10:33.440Those sorts of cheerful folks do better as well.
00:10:36.280And then we've done a few studies actually looking kind of at demographic characteristics.
00:10:39.140I realized at one point that I'd been studying waiting for so long that I had, you know, 20 plus studies with all the same measures of waiting and worry and coping and also a lot of demographic characteristics.
00:10:49.920And so we have one paper, for example, that puts those all together and on average.
00:10:54.840And of course, there's lots of overlap, but in every single study, women reported higher worry than men.
00:11:00.460And I want to be really careful about saying reported because I don't know if they were more worried or if women are just sort of told our whole lives that it's okay to talk about it when we're worried.
00:11:08.960But certainly they were more forthcoming about their worry in our studies.
00:11:13.700So you also did some research about religiosity and worrying while waiting.
00:11:17.980That is a surprising one, and I haven't quite worked it out yet, so I'm interested to know what your listeners might think.
00:11:24.060You know, we found across I think maybe about 10 or 12 studies in that case that people who reported being more religious and having a more committed religious faith and religious practice actually are more worried on average in our studies quite consistently.
00:11:37.780It's not a big difference, but it's a very consistent difference across lots of different kinds of waiting periods compared to those who say that they're less religious.
00:11:45.240And we looked at that question in lots of different ways.
00:11:47.120We tried lots of different measures of religious beliefs and behaviors.
00:11:51.440We asked people how spiritual they were to kind of get away from that structure of religion.
00:11:56.180And kind of no matter how we cut it, it seems like religious people worry more or, again, at least tell us in our studies that they worry more.
00:12:02.360I really don't know what's going on there.
00:12:03.720It's not what we expected, but it's an interesting finding.
00:12:05.860So our tendency is to worry when we don't have all the information.
00:12:10.980But that worrying, I mean, even though it feels uncomfortable and not great, you've done some research, there can be some benefits to worrying while waiting.
00:12:35.100But it's a useful way of thinking about emotions such that basically humans have lots of different emotions.
00:12:40.620We can identify hundreds of feeling states and emotions.
00:12:44.140And the reason that we have such a rich emotional experience in our lives, this theory goes, is because different emotions have different kind of jobs to do for us.
00:12:52.400They motivate us to do things that more often than not keep us alive, keep us thriving.
00:12:59.500But because it's unpleasant, it's very motivating.
00:13:02.100And what worry tends to do is it draws your attention towards some potential looming threat in your future.
00:13:07.380It holds your attention there in ways that are very unpleasant and that, you know, keep you from sleeping well and focusing on other things.
00:13:13.560But nonetheless, it's good if you need to take some action to prevent a bad outcome.
00:13:19.960And so, you know, that's great if the thing you're worried about is getting in a car accident and you can drive more carefully and wear your seatbelt.
00:14:06.400Is there anything you could be doing to, you know, secure a better outcome ideally?
00:14:10.440Or if that's not in your hands at that point, at least maybe to kind of get your ducks in a row so that if the bad news does come, if you have cancer, if you fail the exam, that you're kind of ready for it and you might be able to respond more effectively.
00:14:22.380Even though that's not really changing the outcome, it still does tend to provide people with a sense of reassurance.
00:14:27.000And if you've run that whole checklist and there's nothing left to do, then you're really just left with the option to try to worry less, which, of course, is easier said than done.
00:14:35.220Well, I want to dig more into how we can alleviate the worry while waiting.
00:14:38.780So you mentioned one tactic, right, is we can just make a checklist of things you can do to have all your ducks in a row.
00:14:44.560Another one you have done research on is called preemptive benefit finding.
00:14:49.680What is that and how can it help alleviate worry while waiting?
00:14:53.280Yeah, that's a really clunky term we've come up with.
00:14:55.900We're looking for something zippier, but we haven't found it yet.
00:14:58.540Preemptive benefit finding, we call it that because it's kind of a name check on something else that we know about as psychology researchers, and that is post-traumatic benefit finding.
00:15:07.160So just speaking about that for a moment, when we talk about benefit finding in a post-traumatic context, basically we're saying when something bad happens, you can sometimes find silver linings in that bad outcome.
00:15:17.600You can think about how maybe, you know, at the very least it makes you appreciate life more or you've learned something, maybe you don't make the same mistake next time.
00:15:25.200And we know that's pretty beneficial in most cases to help cope with something bad that has happened.
00:15:29.600I wondered, because I study waiting, if maybe that process doesn't actually just start when the bad news comes, but maybe we actually can and maybe do very readily start thinking about those benefits in advance, kind of lining up our silver linings in advance.
00:15:42.960And yeah, we've done some research showing, first of all, that it happens very readily, even in really difficult circumstances.
00:15:48.780So for example, with the women that we interviewed at a biopsy appointment, we asked them the question, do you think there's any good that might come from it, any silver lining if you find out that you need to get treatment, which is kind of code in our interview for if you find out you have cancer.
00:16:02.520And I've asked people what they thought, what percentage of our participants they thought would say yes to that question in that moment, in that scary period when they're getting the biopsy.
00:16:10.500My mom, for example, who has now had to survive cancer twice, she said, I don't know, 1% maybe who on earth would say that.
00:16:17.460In fact, it was about 75% of our participants who said, yeah, you know, if I have cancer, I'll become healthier, I'll be a role model for my daughters, I'll, you know, show people that they need to get screened.
00:16:27.960They had lots of different ways of kind of articulating those benefits.
00:16:31.300And then we have other research, we didn't get to follow up with them after their diagnosis, but other studies we did follow up with folks after bad news.
00:16:38.440And it does seem like kind of lining up those silver linings does make bad news a bit easier to get.
00:16:43.840Okay, so just to clarify here, the finding the silver lining, this isn't being overly optimistic.
00:16:48.660You're not saying, well, you know, maybe things will just be awesome and it won't be as bad as I think it'll be.
00:16:53.760You know, what you're doing is you're assuming, I'm going to get the bad news.
00:16:57.020I'm going to get the news I don't want, but I'm going to look for the good that could come out of that bad news.
00:17:04.400Yeah, and that's a really important distinction.
00:17:05.980I mean, I've also studied how we manage our expectations for our outcomes and we can certainly talk about that.
00:17:10.100But preemptive benefit finding in some ways is kind of a scary prospect.
00:17:13.340It's really coming face to face with the possibility that you will get bad news.
00:17:17.720And again, in some of the cases I study, that's really bad news.
00:17:21.120But it's kind of confronting that possibility with a little bit of armor on because you're kind of building the armor, I guess, as you're confronting it.
00:17:28.040Because you're thinking about, okay, let's say I fail this exam.
00:17:50.940Like, how do we typically try to manage our expectations for ourselves when we are facing uncertainty?
00:17:57.220Expectation management was kind of my first love in research.
00:17:59.360In fact, I went to grad school to study with someone named James Shepard, and he had been doing work just for a few years at that point on something that we call bracing for the worst.
00:18:06.600This is basically our tendency as humans to become pessimistic as we approach some moment of truth, when we'll find out some outcome, we'll resolve some uncertainty.
00:18:16.240Humans tend to be, in general, very optimistic, and that's a really healthy tendency for the most part.
00:18:21.640But he had shown this very reliable tendency for people to just suddenly become abject pessimists when they were, you know, moments from receiving an exam grade, for example, in a classroom.
00:18:30.620And so I went to school to study that and did for a long time.
00:18:36.560And what I can say over, you know, 20 years now of studying that question is that basically everyone does this almost all the time.
00:18:43.080In fact, even folks who are really dispositionally, naturally optimistic, they do have higher expectations.
00:18:49.520They are more optimistic about their outcomes, but they are just as likely to forego that optimism as they approach that moment of truth as someone who is pessimistic kind of all the time.
00:18:58.760And what we think is true about bracing is that it's really helpful.
00:19:02.040So what I tend to advise for people who are waiting is that you hold on to optimism as long as you can, but not all the way up until you get the news.
00:19:09.800It's really a good kind of bargain to make with yourself to brace for bad news, to assume the worst, at least at that moment of truth, whether that's minutes or days or even weeks in some cases, to kind of prepare yourself for that possibility so that it's not such a shock when you get the news.
00:19:24.700If you've ever gotten bad news that you really didn't see coming, you know, bad news is bad news, but it sure feels a lot worse when it knocks you out and you didn't have time to prepare.
00:19:33.060So bracing seems to be good for that as long as you don't embrace pessimism for too long, which can be really taxing on your well-being.
00:19:39.120And we're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.
00:20:17.260I had a graduate student, Sarah Andrews, who got really interested in kind of positive psychology generally.
00:20:23.180And awe was and still is a really big area of research, kind of a hot area in our field.
00:20:28.180And so she was interested in this question of whether awe might be either uniquely suited to periods of uncertainty.
00:20:35.260You know, awe is kind of a funky, it's a funky emotion.
00:20:38.800It's not quite positive because there's often a bit of fear that goes along with it.
00:20:42.680If you think of, you know, standing at the Grand Canyon or staring out into space and kind of imagining how small we are, that feeling of being small in the face of something big is good-ish, but also kind of makes us uncomfortable.
00:20:54.100It's kind of the whole thing about awe is that discomfort, that need to adjust our perspective.
00:20:58.720And so there's kind of uncertainty baked into that in some sense, uncertainty about our place in the world, for example.
00:21:04.080And so she thought maybe that would be a really good or maybe very poor fit for these kind of moments of uncertainty and waiting.
00:21:09.080And so she did her dissertation on that topic and found that, in fact, a dose of awe, even a pretty small one, just watching an awe-inspiring nature video in the lab as you wait for some kind of news, does seem to improve the experience.
00:21:22.900I don't think it really counteracts worry particularly, and our data didn't show that.
00:21:27.340But it just gives you a boost of this kind of powerful, all-encompassing, positive-ish emotion.
00:21:33.340And that seems to be a benefit in those difficult moments.
00:21:35.840Well, it's interesting that awe can help, but that religious people tend to worry more, right?
00:21:41.340Because you'd think, in theory, religious people would have more awe-like experiences, right?
00:21:46.080They're doing things that's conducive to awe, so like prayer, meditation, et cetera, but they still worry more.
00:21:53.960This is why that religiosity finding is so perplexing to me.
00:21:56.720I thought there were lots of reasons why people who were more religious, again, having a sort of personal spiritual practice and or having a connection to a community,
00:22:04.240a community of faith, that they would be better off.
00:22:08.140It is the case that people who were religious in our studies did tend to cope in ways that I would think are positive.
00:22:14.260So, for example, I think in literally every study, more religious people were more likely to engage in benefit finding.
00:22:20.700I don't think that actually made it into the paper in the end, but that's a sneak preview of some other work we've looked at.
00:22:25.560So there's some good coping strategies that seem kind of to be helpful.
00:22:28.880But, again, it just didn't quite crack through to those reports of worries.
00:22:32.340So that's definitely an open question still.
00:22:34.500Some other research you've done is how flow, flow states, can help reduce or maybe help mitigate the feeling of worrying while waiting.
00:22:42.540So let's start off, you know, what is flow?
00:22:45.040And then what does your research say about flow's ability to help during those periods of waiting for uncertain news?
00:22:52.700Yeah, I got kind of obsessed with flow.
00:22:54.140I'm still a little bit obsessed with it for the last few years.
00:22:56.340I'll just step back a little bit and say that the reason why my lab got interested in flow is because we hit a point in our research about, I don't know, five years ago, where I realized that we knew a whole lot about why waiting was hard and almost nothing about how to make it easier for people.
00:23:10.500And so, if nothing else, for our own suffering, we wanted to kind of find that answer.
00:23:14.280And so, we asked about 100 people, when you have to wait, what makes it easier?
00:23:19.600And you only had to read maybe 10 of those to see that every single person was saying, I try to distract myself, I try to take my mind off it.
00:23:26.440And we'd done some research on distraction.
00:23:28.120And we hadn't found that people were very good at it or it wasn't very effective.
00:23:31.060And so, we thought, okay, where's that disconnect coming from?
00:23:34.240And we thought, well, maybe it is that people are not good at finding the right kinds of distractions.
00:23:38.540And through this conversation, one of my graduate students, it's lost to history who it was, but had heard about flow and kind of brought this topic up.
00:23:46.000And so, that began this relatively long now research program, combining these two topics of waiting and flow.
00:23:52.100Flow is a concept that is in some ways very simple and in some ways wildly complex and not very well understood.
00:23:59.420So, it's doing something where you're fully engaged.
00:24:02.020You are out of your mind, not out of your mind, out of your head.
00:24:04.660And your kind of worries and any other thoughts you might be having are very quiet because you are just fully immersed in the activity that you're doing.
00:24:11.640Time tends to fly by, which is a pretty good thing when you're waiting for some kind of news and you're experiencing that worry.
00:24:17.180And so, we thought maybe this would be helpful.
00:24:19.320And maybe it is the case that people aren't good at kind of intuiting that they need to engage with something rather than trying to kind of check out and relax and binge Netflix while they're worrying.
00:24:29.060So, we did some studies where we just, well, we asked people how much they were experiencing flow.
00:24:32.860We have also put people in situations to experience more or less flow while they're waiting.
00:24:37.720And really, across the board, flow does seem to be a very powerful benefit when you're waiting because, at the very least, it just gives you a break from your worry.
00:24:45.340If you can just get into something, even if it's something as trivial as a video game, if you've got the time to spare, it will give you a break from your thoughts.
00:24:52.640And that can just really be an incredible benefit, especially when you're really paralyzed by worry.
00:24:56.980I'll mention that flow, in fact, even seemed to be really helpful in the very early days of the pandemic.
00:25:02.720We had this wild opportunity in February of 2020, before most Americans, at least, including myself, really knew what was coming for us, to do a study with folks in China where COVID was raging, of course, at the time.
00:25:14.300And just by sheer coincidence, we caught the two-week period when COVID rates were at their highest until very recently they've hit a new peak.
00:25:20.900And we asked about 6,000 people in a survey how they were coping, how they were feeling.
00:25:26.820And one of the things we did was ask if they were experiencing flow.
00:25:29.880We sadly don't know what they were doing to get into flow, but the folks who had found flow somehow or another and were in quarantine just didn't suffer as much as those in quarantine who hadn't found flow.
00:25:41.580In fact, the folks in quarantine who found flow were no worse off than people who were not in quarantine at the time.
00:25:47.700So they basically kind of zeroed out, it looked like, the effect of quarantine on their well-being, on every measure of well-being we could possibly think to include.
00:25:55.100I think it's about 10 different measures.
00:25:56.820So it seems like even in the most uncertain, most restrictive kind of experiences, flow can be a real helper.
00:26:04.220Let's say you're waiting for whether you got a job or not, and you're feeling really anxious.
00:26:10.300What are some specific things that people could do to induce that flow state, to alleviate some of that worry and anxiety?
00:26:17.700So the great thing about flow is that it is induced by different things for everyone, but I can give some tips for finding your specific flow activities.
00:26:24.320I say it's a good thing, by the way, because another thing I've studied that we might talk about is mindfulness, and I find so many people just will not consider meditation, will not consider mindfulness practice.
00:26:34.320It's just not for them, and that's okay.
00:26:36.040The good thing about flow is you can kind of make it your own and fit it to your own enjoyable activities.
00:26:41.160The quick tip I have for finding your own flow activities is think of what you absolutely cannot start doing if you need to leave the house in 10 minutes, because you know that you will just completely lose track of time.
00:26:52.000That's definitely a flow activity for you.
00:26:54.080And you can kind of think of other activities in your life that generally have that effect, so things that kind of get you out of your head, make you lose time, that feel just really completely engaging.
00:27:03.540It's not going to be something passive.
00:27:05.460One of the keys for flow is that it needs to be pretty actively engaging, at least in your mind.
00:27:10.120It doesn't have to be something physical, but it needs to be something that's pretty active, pretty challenging, something that isn't too easy, not too hard.
00:27:17.580So there's some kind of characteristics you can look for, but I think we all know those things that, you know, if you start that puzzle, if you start that game, maybe even if you're lucky, if you start that task that you love at work, you know that time's just going to pass and you're going to miss the next thing.
00:28:11.100The flow has become this kind of obsession of so many different people in the world.
00:28:14.260I went to a conference, strangely, in Iceland last summer.
00:28:17.320And there was a lot of flow research at that conference.
00:28:19.400And there were people who are extreme skiers, rock climbers.
00:28:22.980Those sorts of folks tend to really experience this flow activity.
00:28:26.160In fact, people who do, like, free climbing where you're not on any ropes will talk about how there's nothing more flow-inducing than knowing that, you know, any move you make could be the end of you.
00:28:34.780And so that is kind of the extreme version.
00:28:50.720A lot of people have maybe tried it and feel like it's just, you know, it's too hard to kind of sit with their thoughts.
00:28:54.540But if you kind of engage with mindfulness in the way that I think practitioners intend, it's really quite active mentally.
00:29:01.420So mindfulness is kind of always hard to explain without sounding a little hippy-dippy.
00:29:04.980But basically, it's just a really intense focus on right now.
00:29:08.860It can be a focus on almost anything, actually, as long as it's kind of a sustained attentional focus.
00:29:14.540You know, you tend to hear the suggestion to focus on your breath.
00:29:17.100But there's nothing special about breath.
00:29:18.700It's just that it happens whether you like it or not.
00:29:20.800And so it provides kind of a target for your attention that will always be happening.
00:29:25.980And when we engage in that kind of really focused attention and we just let our thoughts come and go without really getting attached to them, we just keep coming back to that whatever it is, let's say the breath.
00:29:35.340It seems to have the effect of kind of going to the mental gym.
00:29:38.960It just makes your mind a little less chaotic.
00:29:42.740It kind of requires less effort to stay focused and to be in control.
00:29:47.460And it's not easy to do that practice.
00:29:49.460But when you do it, it really seems to be effective.
00:29:51.620In our studies, we have found that mindfulness seems to be a really good match for feelings of worry during waiting periods.
00:29:57.980It's my theory about why it's a good match is that when you're waiting, one of the worst things you deal with is this kind of mental time travel where maybe you're thinking back to, you know, how many items you missed on the exam or how you could have been healthier and not gotten yourself into this medical situation, whatever the past might be.
00:30:13.560And most of all, we're thinking a lot about the future and what's going to come.
00:30:17.160And the key with mindfulness is really to not think about the past and future, but to focus on the present.
00:30:22.680And that seems to be a really powerful antidote to worry.
00:30:26.200Yeah, it helps you avoid the rumination that can happen when you worry.
00:31:19.780Now I'm inspired to ask that question in my research.
00:31:22.880What I do know is that there's a lot of work on what we call expressive writing.
00:31:26.520And so expressive writing is just, I've never done a study on it, but I know the work pretty well.
00:31:30.740And they have participants kind of think through and write about some sort of negative experience they've had in their life.
00:31:36.340This tends to be a very powerful intervention for folks who've experienced trauma and really are suffering from that trauma.
00:31:43.060And there's something about kind of analytically writing about the thing you experienced in the past.
00:31:48.000And I imagine it might be effective for something you're currently going through, like a difficult waiting period.
00:31:52.560And it kind of sucks the energy out of it in a way that makes it much less emotional and much more analytical.
00:31:57.380That stepping back seems to be really powerful.
00:31:59.280So I have not looked at journaling or even expressive writing in the context of waiting, but I think there's a lot of good reason to think it might work.
00:32:06.200Yeah, I was thinking, so what I've read about the research on expressive writing is that people, when they typically start doing it, they usually try to figure out why something happened.
00:32:18.740And when you start asking why, like that's when you go down this rabbit hole, because that's when it gets, you know, really emotional.
00:32:23.760You just start asking why, why, you know.
00:32:25.440But when you focus your question on how or what, you know, like ask yourself, how can I make this better or what can I do?
00:32:33.040It puts you in your logic mode of your brain and it helps you quit worrying.
00:32:38.500And so I was thinking, you know, combining journaling with preemptive benefit finding might be a useful tactic.
00:32:43.280So just sit down and journal and just write, you know, assume I get the bad news.
00:32:48.180How will my life be better once I know that?
00:32:52.680I can totally imagine that, you know, in our case, we sometimes do have participants write that down just for practical purposes for our research.
00:32:59.000And so, you know, for all I know, that's maybe the key to the intervention that we're doing is that they're writing about it and kind of putting that into words,
00:33:05.780thinking about how things might be good in the future, despite or in the face of bad news might be very important.
00:33:11.300I can also imagine that just kind of writing down your worries and as exactly as you said, kind of thinking about them in a more objective way,
00:33:17.340stepping out of your own perspective and looking at it objectively, those are all very powerful tools for minimizing any kind of negative emotion.
00:33:24.920I should mention, by the way, that you want to be careful with expressive writing, that kind of analytical approach to thinking about your memories.
00:33:30.720If you do it with positive memories, it does the same thing, which is to say it completely undermines the emotional experience of it.
00:33:35.940So good for negative events, not so good for positive events.
00:33:39.340What role does social support play in mitigating worry while waiting?
00:33:43.500Social support is super important in basically every part of life.
00:36:00.720So your fate is kind of intertwined, usually, with the person who's taking the bar exam.
00:36:04.300That determines their career opportunities.
00:36:06.280And so, you know, it's a really difficult period of waiting, potentially for both parties.
00:36:10.180But what we found very consistently in our study is that the people who were waiting for the news, the ones who took the bar exam, would say, yeah, my partner is really great right after the exam.
00:36:23.020You know, you can kind of debrief about the whole experience.
00:36:25.980And then that social support started seeming to be quite a bit less effective in the kind of middle months, let's say the middle two months of that four-month waiting period.
00:36:32.120And then as we were getting closer to that moment of truth and the stress was ramping up, then suddenly the romantic partners seemed to kind of come back into the picture and figure out once more how to support them.
00:36:42.500But that middle period was rocky for everyone involved.
00:36:46.900So any advice there, you know, on how to handle that middle period?
00:36:50.720Yeah, I think it's really about recognizing.
00:36:54.200So it's recognizing that, yeah, you know, the exam was two months ago and the results are two months in the future or whatever time frame you're in.
00:37:00.080But nonetheless, this random Tuesday, for whatever reason, is a really hard day for my partner.
00:37:04.180And so today's the day I need to show up, even if it feels a little unnecessary, you know, for the person who's giving the support.
00:37:11.520You know, if that person's having a hard day, don't question it.
00:37:16.040What do you do if you've got someone who's dealing with a waiting period and they're using you as a sounding board for the rumination, right?
00:37:23.840Should you step in and say, hey, you know, this isn't helping.
00:37:26.820Let's stop because this isn't going anywhere.
00:37:31.400Yeah, that's where the problems with the social support research come in because we really don't know.
00:37:36.380And the problem is that we have, for example, asked hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people at this point, when you're waiting, what's helpful for people to do, what's unhelpful that people do.
00:37:45.860And frankly, those two lists look pretty similar.
00:37:48.500So, you know, letting someone vent might be great in one situation.
00:37:52.160And in another situation, that might just make them feel worse.
00:37:54.820Telling them everything will be fine might be great in one situation for one person.
00:37:58.560It might be undermining their, you know, desire to kind of brace and ruminate in another.
00:38:03.380And so I think, again, it's really hard to know.
00:38:06.160Like, yeah, that's really what I can say, which I think should be freeing for people.
00:38:10.540Like, there is no really right answer.
00:38:12.120And so there's really no wrong answer either.
00:38:13.840If you're being kind of responsive to what the person seems to need, if you're being responsive to what they want to do at the time, that's about the closest you can get probably to being a good support partner.
00:38:23.620Well, Kate, this has been a great conversation.
00:38:25.040Where can people go to learn more about your work?
00:38:48.240She's a psychologist who researches weighting.
00:38:50.760You can find more information about her work at our website, katesweeney.com.
00:38:53.960Also, check out our show notes at aom.is slash weighting, where you can find links to resources, where you can delve deeper into this topic.
00:39:06.820Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast.
00:39:09.580Make sure to check out our website at artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles written over the years about pretty much anything you think of.
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00:39:30.460And if you haven't done this already, I'd appreciate if you take one minute to give us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.