The Art of Manliness - How to Develop Greater Self-Awareness

00:00:00.080 Hey, it's Brett, we're taking a break from new episodes today, so we're going to rebroadcast

00:00:03.240 episode number 644, How to Develop Greater Self-Awareness.

00:00:06.680 It's one of our most popular episodes of all time.

00:00:09.220 Hope you enjoy it, and while I have you, if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate

00:00:12.820 if you take one minute to get a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, it helps out a

00:00:15.980 lot.

00:00:16.600 Thanks so much, we'll see you on Monday with a new episode.

00:00:26.440 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:30.000 95% of people say that they're self-aware, but only 10-15% of people actually are.

00:00:34.920 As my guest today says, that means on a good day, 80% of us are lying to ourselves about

00:00:38.920 how much we're lying to ourselves, and this blind spot can have big repercussions for our

00:00:42.920 success and happiness.

00:00:44.240 Her name is Tasha Urich, and she's an organizational psychologist and the author of Insight, why

00:00:48.240 we're not as self-aware as we think, and how seeing ourselves clearly helps us succeed at

00:00:52.120 work and in life.

00:00:53.260 Tasha kicks off our conversation by arguing that our level of self-awareness sets the

00:00:56.760 upper limit of our individual effectiveness, and that self-awareness can be developed and

00:01:00.280 is truly the meta skill of the 21st century.

00:01:02.520 She then unpacks what it is you know about yourself when you possess self-awareness, how

00:01:05.980 there are two types of this knowledge, internal and external, and how you can have one without

00:01:09.480 the other.

00:01:10.120 Tasha then outlines the seven pillars of self-awareness, the barriers to getting insights into them,

00:01:14.280 including falling into the cult of self, and how these barriers can be overcome, including

00:01:18.000 asking yourself a daily check-in question.

00:01:19.780 We then discuss how two of the most common methods of gaining self-knowledge, introspection

00:01:23.680 and journaling can in fact backfire, and how to do them more effectively by asking yourself

00:01:27.600 what instead of why, and actually journaling less instead of more.

00:01:31.180 We also get into why you should be an informer rather than a me-former on social media, how

00:01:35.360 to become more mindful without meditation, and how to solicit and handle feedback from other

00:01:39.000 people, including holding something called a dinner of truth.

00:01:41.700 After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash self-awareness.

00:01:49.780 All right, Tasha Urich, welcome to the show.

00:01:55.460 Thanks for having me.

00:01:56.860 So you are the author of a book.

00:01:59.140 You're a consultant, psychologist, and author of this book called Insight.

00:02:02.140 It's all about developing self-awareness.

00:02:04.260 Let's talk about your background.

00:02:05.420 How did you end up focusing your career and consulting on helping leaders and just everyone

00:02:10.940 develop more self-awareness?

00:02:12.740 So I've been an organizational psychologist for more than 15 years.

00:02:16.860 But before that, I was the daughter of an entrepreneur.

00:02:21.080 I'm actually a third-generation entrepreneur.

00:02:23.520 And so I grew up literally watching my mom run a company.

00:02:27.680 And I've always been very passionate about business.

00:02:30.820 I actually think it's the greatest personal growth tool there is in some sense.

00:02:35.600 But I fell in love with psychology at the same time.

00:02:38.820 And I was lucky enough when I was kind of ending college to find this field of organizational

00:02:43.880 psychology where essentially the goal is to help create prosperity, both sort of financially

00:02:49.500 and then just more generally in businesses by helping leaders be better, by helping companies

00:02:54.540 create better cultures.

00:02:56.220 And so I went all in.

00:02:57.720 I went and got my PhD in the field and have really never looked back.

00:03:01.940 So for me, part of what I focus on in my consulting work is I coach usually the top one or two levels

00:03:08.160 in mid- to large-sized organizations, so CEOs and their direct reports.

00:03:12.960 And what I kept seeing over and over and over for so many years was this very distinct pattern.

00:03:18.940 And it was that the leaders and executives I coached who were willing to question the assumptions

00:03:24.180 they had about themselves, who were willing to get sometimes brutal feedback about how they were

00:03:29.500 showing up and what kind of leader they were, and who were willing to do the work

00:03:33.680 and make changes and really figure out how they can show up in the best possible way were

00:03:39.420 infinitely more successful.

00:03:41.180 But they weren't just more successful, they were happier, they were more confident, they

00:03:45.060 were, they had more sustainable success.

00:03:47.420 And as I started to think about this, you know, the buzzword of self-awareness had emerged.

00:03:51.940 But what I wanted to know, my background is scientific, is, is self-awareness actually as important

00:03:57.980 as I thought it was?

00:03:59.780 Were sort of the common pieces of wisdom out there?

00:04:02.560 You know, you read a Forbes article that says, get more feedback.

00:04:05.780 Were those things actually true?

00:04:07.560 And so I convened a research team, it's been more than seven years ago now, where we wanted

00:04:11.740 to know what is self-awareness?

00:04:13.840 Where does it come from?

00:04:15.540 Why do we need it?

00:04:16.680 And then probably most importantly, how do we get more of it?

00:04:19.360 And it's been such a fascinating ride.

00:04:21.920 We've learned that a lot of the most commonly accepted truths about self-awareness, what it

00:04:27.100 means, how to get more of it are wrong.

00:04:29.100 So there's a lot there.

00:04:29.980 Well, you opened the book saying, arguing that self-awareness, you call it the meta skill

00:04:35.680 of the 21st century.

00:04:37.160 What do you, why do you think it's such an important skill to have these days?

00:04:40.380 Like, what is it about modern work and just life in general in the 21st century that requires

00:04:45.140 being more self-aware?

00:04:46.980 Sure.

00:04:47.320 So let me give you a couple of scientifically supported outcomes of self-awareness, and

00:04:51.500 then I'll circle back to your question, because I think it's really the heart of the matter.

00:04:55.120 Self-aware people, empirically, scientifically, are more successful at work.

00:04:59.100 They get more promotions.

00:05:00.760 They're better communicators, better influencers, better salespeople.

00:05:05.180 They're more effective and motivating leaders.

00:05:08.040 There's even a growing body of evidence that shows that self-awareness isn't just nice to

00:05:12.640 have, it's a business imperative.

00:05:14.960 Leaders who are self-aware lead more profitable companies.

00:05:18.720 Companies who are comprised of self-aware people are more profitable.

00:05:22.440 So all of these things together, it's important already, but the reason I think self-awareness

00:05:28.400 is the foundational skill of the 21st century, even before COVID, but more so now, is that

00:05:35.060 we can only be as effective at all of these 21st century skills as we are self-aware.

00:05:41.160 So think about this.

00:05:42.040 Has anyone ever met an exceptional leader who wasn't also self-aware or a very effective

00:05:47.840 influencer or a relationship builder?

00:05:50.320 And so the way I look at this is essentially our self-awareness is going to set the upper

00:05:55.340 limit of our effectiveness.

00:05:57.860 And that's why, we'll talk about this later, but a lot of people have more room to improve

00:06:02.720 than they think.

00:06:03.740 But the good news is self-awareness, we've discovered, is one of the most developable

00:06:07.940 skills out there.

00:06:09.120 So it just presents a huge opportunity for so many people.

00:06:12.800 Let's talk about what self-awareness is, because you make the case there's two parts to

00:06:15.720 it.

00:06:15.880 And there's internal and external self-awareness.

00:06:19.160 And we're going to dig deep into each of these types.

00:06:21.120 But on high level, what's the difference between the two?

00:06:24.120 And why can't you have true or complete self-awareness without both?

00:06:28.640 When we started this research program, I was pretty naive.

00:06:31.860 And I thought, oh, it should be pretty easy to come up with a definition of what self-awareness

00:06:35.740 is.

00:06:36.600 And almost a thousand empirical studies later, we surveyed thousands of people all around the

00:06:41.920 world.

00:06:42.180 We did in-depth interviews, which I'm sure we'll talk about.

00:06:45.460 We finally, after about a year, were able to distill, what do we know when we're self-aware?

00:06:52.480 And just like you said, it's made up of two types of self-knowledge.

00:06:55.520 So the first is something we call internal self-awareness, which is knowing who you are

00:07:00.800 at your core.

00:07:01.720 What do you value?

00:07:02.820 What are you passionate about?

00:07:04.200 What aspirations do you have for the kind of life you want to live and the type of career

00:07:09.040 you want to lead?

00:07:09.940 But at the same time, there's something equally important called external self-awareness.

00:07:15.760 And what that is, is in a nutshell, knowing how other people see us.

00:07:20.280 And fascinatingly, you alluded to this, is we found that these two types of self-knowledge

00:07:26.440 are completely unrelated.

00:07:28.980 So if there are any stats nerds listening to this, there is a 0.0 correlation between your

00:07:33.980 level of internal self-awareness and external self-awareness.

00:07:37.460 But what I think is really important about that is it provides the roadmap.

00:07:41.700 What does it actually take to become self-aware?

00:07:44.080 It's an equal focus on internal and external self-awareness, even when those answers are

00:07:49.500 different.

00:07:50.220 You sort of think about the way I see myself is going to be different than the way other

00:07:54.720 people see me.

00:07:55.740 But the most self-aware people we've discovered are able to balance both of those types of self-knowledge,

00:08:01.620 not putting one over the other in terms of importance, but being able to sort of live

00:08:06.440 sometimes with that contradiction.

00:08:08.620 Well, because I think people can think of examples of people who are internally self-aware,

00:08:12.560 but aren't externally self-aware.

00:08:14.260 So they know kind of what they want in life, but they're clueless about how other people

00:08:17.860 perceive them.

00:08:19.300 Right.

00:08:19.440 What's an example of someone who has external self-awareness, but no internal self-awareness?

00:08:24.680 So the archetype that you talked about, I call introspectors.

00:08:29.000 The opposite of that, somebody who has high external self-awareness and low internal self-awareness,

00:08:34.580 I've named a pleaser.

00:08:36.380 And I actually fall into that category.

00:08:38.340 I'm far more comfortable asking someone for feedback about myself than I am really pondering

00:08:43.880 who I am at my core.

00:08:45.660 And what we found with pleasers is, first of all, there's a slightly higher proportion of 0.95

00:08:50.500 women in that category. 0.88

00:08:51.580 Men are just a little bit more likely to be introspectors.

00:08:55.340 But for pleasers, their journey is usually figuring out what do they really want.

00:08:59.960 You think about the classic trope of like, instead of going pre-med in this full-ride scholarship,

00:09:08.560 I'm going to quit school and audition for American Idol.

00:09:12.020 And it's like, I really want to do that.

00:09:14.180 And I'm doing it because it's the thing I want at my core.

00:09:17.000 That's the thing that pleasers really struggle with, is sometimes they can get wrapped up

00:09:21.940 in what other people want them to do and lose sight of or not even think about what they

00:09:27.360 really want.

00:09:28.680 So internal self-awareness is knowing what you want.

00:09:30.760 External self-awareness is knowing how other people perceive you.

00:09:35.140 But then what's the opposite of that, of being self-aware?

00:09:39.020 Oh, that's a big question.

00:09:40.620 So everybody sees this all around us in the world, of late particularly, but just in general.

00:09:45.380 I think the opposite of self-awareness is closer to a self-absorption.

00:09:51.460 So sometimes people say, can you be too self-aware?

00:09:55.300 And what I think a lot of people get at with that question is, can you be so focused on

00:10:00.500 yourself that you start to lose confidence?

00:10:02.860 You start to overthink everything you're doing or place too much emphasis on how other people

00:10:07.200 see you.

00:10:07.820 But that's actually not self-awareness.

00:10:09.920 That's almost like self-consciousness.

00:10:12.220 So self-awareness is understanding who we are, our strengths and our weaknesses, everything

00:10:17.700 that we are, but also having sort of a sense of self-acceptance.

00:10:21.600 And that's why, to me, self-absorption is the opposite of that.

00:10:25.580 It's having the sense that no matter what our objective reality is or where we stand on

00:10:31.420 all the things we want to be and do, we think we're great anyway.

00:10:35.640 And there's a lot of research that shows just how dangerous that can be.

00:10:39.200 I get into this in Insight, but there's a lot of internal barriers to seeing ourselves

00:10:44.160 clearly.

00:10:45.360 There's a lot of sort of external cultural barriers to that.

00:10:49.000 So the people that are self-aware are successful at fighting those things.

00:10:53.960 They are able to see the barriers.

00:10:55.620 They're able to sort of jump over them.

00:10:57.440 Whereas most people can get wrapped up in, I call it the cult of self, right?

00:11:01.980 This idea that I am special and unique and wonderful no matter what, and nobody really

00:11:05.880 understands me.

00:11:06.820 That's the opposite of self-awareness.

00:11:08.480 And we'll dig into these biases or these roadblocks here in a bit.

00:11:11.840 But through your work and your research, you've uncovered, so we know what self-awareness is

00:11:16.060 kind of knowing what you want in life, but also understanding how other people perceive

00:11:21.480 you.

00:11:22.220 But you've uncovered sort of like what you call seven pillars of self-awareness, things

00:11:25.600 about your life that in order to be self-aware, you need to kind of have an understanding about.

00:11:30.360 And we'll dig into a few of these, but what are, in your research, what are these seven

00:11:34.220 pillars of insight that you think people need to have in order to be self-aware?

00:11:37.600 So this is just fascinating.

00:11:39.600 Our research showed this crystal clear distinction between when someone is self-aware, what do

00:11:46.440 they know?

00:11:46.980 And when someone isn't self-aware, what don't they know?

00:11:50.100 So I'll go through them.

00:11:51.500 And this is kind of in order from most core to us to most external.

00:11:55.980 And by the way, you can receive internal and external information about all of them.

00:12:01.280 And I think that'll make sense when I say what they are.

00:12:03.360 So the first is our values, knowing the principles that we want to live our lives by.

00:12:09.020 Number two are our passions.

00:12:10.800 What are the things that we just love to do, make us leap out of bed in the morning, and

00:12:15.560 how can we design our lives so we do them as much as possible?

00:12:19.240 Another is our aspirations.

00:12:21.240 And that's not just what we want to accomplish in our life and our work, but also what experience

00:12:26.980 do we want to have when we're here on this earth.

00:12:29.880 Another one is basically the fit we have, the types of environments and people who give

00:12:36.360 us energy versus taking our energy away.

00:12:40.100 Another is our patterns.

00:12:41.640 And this is basically knowing your personality, knowing in this type of situation, I tend to

00:12:47.360 respond this way.

00:12:48.580 Or in general, I tend to be more of an extrovert or an introvert and so on.

00:12:53.060 The next one is our reactions.

00:12:55.740 And this gets a lot of play with self-awareness.

00:12:57.940 You think about my in-the-moment awareness of my thoughts, my feelings, my behaviors.

00:13:03.340 And what's also part of this reactions component is our underlying strengths and weaknesses.

00:13:08.340 If I have anger management problems, a weakness, I am going to, in the moment, lose my cool more

00:13:14.800 often than not.

00:13:15.720 And so that's why those two things are linked.

00:13:17.840 And the last pillar of insight, the seventh pillar, is knowing our impact on others.

00:13:23.060 And the beauty of these seven pillars is you can do your own unique exploration from an

00:13:28.400 internal standpoint, and it's valuable to get feedback from other people.

00:13:33.320 And so that's where I sort of think about internal and external self-awareness as the

00:13:36.900 two camera angles for how we can see ourselves.

00:13:39.620 And then those seven pillars are, you know, is the what, is the work that we need to do.

00:13:44.700 Yeah, I thought that was interesting that you can, it's possible to have internal or not

00:13:48.220 have internal self-awareness about some of these things, but external self-awareness can help

00:13:51.920 you get more insight into that.

00:13:53.840 I was thinking like, you know, your triggers, right?

00:13:55.460 You might not even be aware of the things that cause you to flip for whatever, but other

00:14:00.940 people can see that.

00:14:02.060 And if you get their feedback, you can finally figure out like, okay, well, this sort of thing

00:14:06.800 triggers me for whatever reason.

00:14:09.000 Exactly.

00:14:09.520 Yeah.

00:14:09.680 We are notoriously poor judges of particularly how we come across to other people, but like

00:14:15.840 you said, our reactions, even our values.

00:14:18.320 One thing I do with the CEOs I work with is, you know, we work on clarifying their values,

00:14:24.240 but it's also really helpful to ask other people, based on my behavior and what you know of me,

00:14:30.360 you know, what do you think is most important to me?

00:14:32.820 What are the, what are my key values?

00:14:35.220 I've done that exercise so many times that sometimes something unique will come from that

00:14:39.900 conversation.

00:14:40.620 Something that maybe that person didn't even know they were doing, or, or even was so core

00:14:45.300 to them that they didn't think about it because it's just how they see the world.

00:14:48.780 So that's why I think those two perspectives are so important.

00:14:51.880 Yeah.

00:14:52.140 I thought that was interesting with the values thing.

00:14:53.380 Cause a lot of people go, I have a mission statement where I value this, this, this, this,

00:14:56.520 but then you look at like how they spend their time, their money, how they treat.

00:15:00.520 And it's like, that's really going to show you what they really value.

00:15:03.380 It's keeping you honest, right?

00:15:06.000 I've had, I told a story about this in an article I wrote recently about how I had lunch with

00:15:12.100 a client and I was really, really worked up about this person who had sent a nasty response

00:15:17.740 to my newsletter that day.

00:15:19.360 And it was like consuming all of my thoughts and he, and I was telling him, you know, I'm

00:15:24.280 going to, I'm going to respond to this guy and I'm going to say this and this and this.

00:15:27.800 And he just looked at me and he said, Tasha, this is not the Tasha I know right now.

00:15:32.700 The Tasha I know wants to make the world better for as many people as possible. 0.96

00:15:36.000 And I'm hearing you talk about how you're going to take this poor guy down.

00:15:39.260 And it was, it was just such an instructive moment.

00:15:42.820 And I think as much as we can have people around us who trust us and love us enough to

00:15:48.080 tell us the truth that can keep us honest, you know, like you said, am I really following

00:15:52.380 my mission statement on a bad day?

00:15:54.560 Having someone call me out is really helpful.

00:15:57.600 Well, let's talk about how do you get these insights into these different pillars of self

00:16:01.240 awareness?

00:16:01.700 I mean, you just mentioned one, you had a colleague say, just tell you, Hey, this isn't really you.

00:16:06.020 You're better than this and any other ways that you can find insights about this stuff?

00:16:11.200 Sure.

00:16:11.480 So there's a lot to this answer and I might not be able to give you anything satisfying

00:16:15.380 on it, but I think, you know, part of it are the types of questions we ask ourselves and

00:16:20.300 then the process we use to get feedback from other people.

00:16:23.180 So values is another example.

00:16:25.440 It's, it's not uncommon when I talk to, you know, organizational leaders for me to say,

00:16:31.120 Hey, have you, have you actually sat down and thought about your top three values and

00:16:35.260 how you're going to use those to be more effective?

00:16:38.400 Sometimes people just look at me blankly, you know, and I think that's the kind of thing

00:16:42.260 that it's going to morph and evolve as we go about our lives.

00:16:45.060 But even just to sit down and ask, what are my values?

00:16:48.780 Another is to put up processes that help other people give you feedback, especially if you

00:16:54.780 are trying to work on something or get better at something.

00:16:57.760 Let's say that, you know, someone aspires to be a better public speaker.

00:17:01.900 A good way to continue that journey is to put a few people in place who are going to

00:17:06.740 watch you speak publicly and figure out a way to regularly get feedback from them.

00:17:11.840 So I think it's really, and this is where our research is, is kind of nuanced because

00:17:16.280 there isn't one way to get there.

00:17:18.500 But what we've discovered is to build self-awareness in all these ways, if you're strategic and smart

00:17:24.760 about it, it actually doesn't become like another part-time job.

00:17:28.500 It can be done very efficiently and effectively with not a ton of time.

00:17:33.440 And then you also mentioned in the book, I mean, in some ways, they're just sort of like

00:17:35.900 big, like you call like earthquake moments.

00:17:37.500 Maybe you get turned down from a job or you get fired from a job or, you know, you have

00:17:41.680 a big failure in your life and you have to sort of have this reckoning.

00:17:45.460 Maybe this isn't for me.

00:17:46.280 Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

00:17:48.280 Because the situation forces you to actually introspect and try to get some self-awareness

00:17:52.880 of the situation.

00:17:54.220 Right.

00:17:54.460 One would hope.

00:17:55.120 That's the difference between people who grow their self-awareness in their lives and people

00:17:59.660 who, you know, just want to sort of remain blissfully ignorant.

00:18:03.100 I understand the urge.

00:18:04.960 You know, we think like if I get fired, I might think, well, nobody understands me.

00:18:08.900 They, you know, they wouldn't know a good salesperson if they smacked them in the face. 0.83

00:18:12.260 But I think especially when life hands us an outcome that is dramatically different than what

00:18:19.060 we expect professionally, personally, anything, that is a data point.

00:18:25.040 And if we're not really doing the work to make sure that there wasn't something we were

00:18:29.160 missing or there wasn't something we did to contribute to that, I think we're losing

00:18:35.120 that opportunity for greater self-awareness and greater empowerment and just being able

00:18:40.100 to build the life that we want to live.

00:18:42.120 Right.

00:18:42.620 And you hear people who've had like near death experiences or had to go to the hospital

00:18:45.760 for, you know, a health situation.

00:18:47.900 Like that was a moment where they had to be like, I got to take care of my health.

00:18:51.020 I got to figure out what's really important to me.

00:18:52.980 And ideally it wouldn't take like a heart attack for you to do that.

00:18:57.080 I mean, ideally you would start, you'd be able to be attuned like throughout your daily

00:19:00.600 life of, you know, to gain insights about yourself.

00:19:03.900 So that doesn't have to happen.

00:19:05.760 Exactly.

00:19:06.080 And that was one thing we found pretty clearly in what highly self-aware people did differently.

00:19:12.220 You know, they did come across those earthquake events for sure.

00:19:15.300 I think that's what life is about sometimes.

00:19:17.280 But what they did differently is they looked for kind of almost like this incremental daily

00:19:22.520 insight.

00:19:23.480 And it wasn't spending hours and hours in therapy.

00:19:26.900 You know, it wasn't writing journals, you know, every single day.

00:19:30.980 It was really just having that curiosity on a daily basis.

00:19:34.740 Pretty much all of our subjects that were highly self-aware had some form of what I named the

00:19:40.400 daily check-in.

00:19:41.860 And basically what you do is you take at the end of your day, if you're getting ready for

00:19:45.160 bed or brushing your teeth, you ask yourself, what went well today?

00:19:49.560 What didn't go so well today?

00:19:51.620 And then what can I do to be smarter tomorrow?

00:19:55.120 And if you think about that, it's so targeted and focused.

00:19:58.340 It doesn't take a ton of time.

00:19:59.640 But if it increases your self-awareness by even, say, 1% a week, if you do that most

00:20:05.680 days, that's when you're going to start to get these really astonishing sort of compounding

00:20:10.400 improvements in your self-awareness.

00:20:12.260 And for me, that's what I would recommend to someone.

00:20:16.180 You don't want to just wait until, you know, like you said, you don't want to wait until

00:20:19.800 you land yourself in the hospital because you didn't see the pattern coming.

00:20:23.260 If you take a little bit more time and be proactive, you can prevent some of those things from

00:20:27.840 happening.

00:20:29.160 We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

00:20:33.260 And now back to the show.

00:20:35.040 So you mentioned earlier that gaining self-insight or self-awareness can be hard because we have

00:20:40.260 all these psychological biases working against us.

00:20:43.340 What are some of these biases that are working against this?

00:20:45.820 And then after that, like, how do you overcome some of these blind spots?

00:20:49.160 Let's start with the biggest one.

00:20:50.460 In our research, we have found that if you ask people, are you self-aware?

00:20:55.080 About 95% of people believe that they are.

00:21:00.820 And the reality is that only about 10% to 15% of people actually fit that profile.

00:21:09.180 Only 10% to 15% of us actually are self-aware.

00:21:12.640 And so the delta on that is pretty stunning.

00:21:15.240 You know, the joke I always make is on a good day, 80% of us are lying to ourselves about

00:21:20.360 whether we're lying to ourselves.

00:21:22.020 And there's a lot of sort of issues about the way humans are wired that we prefer to

00:21:28.860 see ourselves with rose-colored glasses.

00:21:31.100 We aren't as likely to question our assumptions about ourselves.

00:21:34.700 And so in my opinion, the biggest barrier there is to be self-aware is believing that

00:21:40.640 we already are.

00:21:42.340 And our research subjects that I told you about earlier who made these really dramatic improvements

00:21:47.600 in their self-awareness had this, it was almost like a paradox in their mindset.

00:21:53.240 On one hand, they were building their self-knowledge, you know, incrementally and strategically.

00:21:59.120 But on the other hand, they had this philosophy that no matter what I know about myself, there's

00:22:04.160 always more to learn.

00:22:05.980 There was one gentleman in our study who was a middle school science teacher.

00:22:09.620 And he said, I kind of think about self-awareness like exploring space.

00:22:14.500 And no matter what I learn, there's always more to discover.

00:22:18.300 And that's what makes it so exciting.

00:22:20.140 And I really love that because it turns the problem on its head.

00:22:24.440 Instead of saying, oh, gosh, you know, we all need to be more self-aware and we're not

00:22:28.060 as self-aware as we think.

00:22:29.360 I think it's just a matter of having the right mindset of curiosity.

00:22:33.060 So that's something that anybody who's listening to this today can do right now in this moment.

00:22:38.220 Now, there's obviously action that has to back us up.

00:22:41.560 And that's what we have gotten into a little bit.

00:22:44.220 I think the other thing I'd say is there really is a cult of self-movement happening.

00:22:51.040 And it's not just for us millennials.

00:22:53.300 It's not just for Americans.

00:22:55.740 It's been shown kind of all over the world that people are getting more low-level narcissism

00:23:02.200 or kind of gaining levels of narcissism.

00:23:04.540 And so part of it is I never want people to overcorrect and go like, oh, well, I guess 0.99

00:23:09.500 the answer is to say that I suck.

00:23:11.460 But I think we have to be really careful about, you know, think about your last social media 0.98

00:23:15.380 post.

00:23:16.560 Was it to show people how great you are subconsciously or consciously?

00:23:21.240 Those are the types of things that I think really pull us away from self-awareness if we

00:23:25.140 get into that cult of self.

00:23:26.780 So I think those are two big barriers.

00:23:29.700 There's a lot more.

00:23:30.440 I'm not sure if you want to go into them, but that would be my initial response.

00:23:34.780 Yeah, I'd say that psychological bias.

00:23:36.060 We don't want to feel bad about ourselves.

00:23:38.120 And so we basically engage in cognitive dissonance to make us feel better about ourselves, even

00:23:44.040 though.

00:23:44.660 So if say something bad happens, well, it wasn't my fault.

00:23:47.560 It was that guy's fault.

00:23:49.640 Maybe.

00:23:50.420 But if you never even consider the fact that you might have some sort of responsibility

00:23:53.280 in the outcome, then you can never become more self-aware.

00:23:57.000 But I want to dig into this cult of self you've talked about.

00:23:59.380 So it's sort of a culture.

00:24:00.900 And you're saying we're becoming more narcissistic.

00:24:02.440 And narcissism, I think you made this clear, it's like low level.

00:24:05.600 We're not, people aren't becoming clinical narcissists where that's like a psychological

00:24:09.420 disorder.

00:24:10.780 But you're just talking about people are just so focused on the self that they can't even

00:24:14.300 take, it's harder and harder for people to take a third-party perspective on things.

00:24:20.020 That's exactly right.

00:24:21.340 And if you look at some of the studies, there's one that I think really sums it up.

00:24:25.860 They looked at the percentage of people who agreed with the statement, I am a very important

00:24:31.460 person.

00:24:32.640 It's increased, I think it's like 30% in the last couple of decades.

00:24:37.240 And if you look around, that's something that we see everywhere.

00:24:41.600 Millennials are often blamed for it.

00:24:43.980 And I think some of that has to do with life stage and just growing up and maturing.

00:24:49.160 But at the end of the day, those increases have been documented for pretty much all age

00:24:55.380 groups.

00:24:55.880 And by the way, they started in the 1960s.

00:24:58.420 So this isn't just something that's happened in the last 10 years.

00:25:01.840 It's really been going on for a while and doesn't seem to be losing that much steam.

00:25:06.840 And also you highlight in this cult of self section in your book, there's research that

00:25:11.320 shows that focusing more on yourself, doing more introspection.

00:25:15.300 Because that's what people think.

00:25:16.060 I need to become more self-aware.

00:25:17.300 So they think I got to go off to a retreat or out into the woods and just be by myself and

00:25:22.040 with my thoughts and journal.

00:25:23.460 They think that's the key to becoming more self-aware, just doing some really heavy introspection.

00:25:29.340 But you highlight all this research that shows actually, if you introspect the wrong way

00:25:34.400 or too much, it can actually make you less self-aware.

00:25:37.800 This was one of the biggest surprises in our research.

00:25:41.200 It was actually so surprising that I almost abandoned this project.

00:25:44.840 I thought, well, maybe self-awareness and introspection are bad.

00:25:47.720 But essentially what we did is we surveyed about 300 people.

00:25:51.080 This was really early on in our project.

00:25:53.920 And I was assuming that if I asked them to say, how much do you think about yourself?

00:25:59.260 How much do you kind of reflect on your thoughts and feelings and motives?

00:26:03.060 Then I wanted to measure their self-awareness.

00:26:05.300 And I also wanted to measure how are they feeling about life?

00:26:08.520 Did they feel in control?

00:26:10.400 Did they have depression or anxiety?

00:26:13.120 Were they happy with their relationships at work and at home?

00:26:16.220 And I actually found the exact opposite pattern that I expected.

00:26:21.380 So the more people introspected, the less self-aware they tended to be and the worse off in their lives.

00:26:29.660 They were more stressed, more depressed, more anxious.

00:26:32.420 They were less satisfied just with life in general.

00:26:35.520 They felt less in control.

00:26:37.640 And as I started to explore this, what I ended up learning was it's not that introspection in and of

00:26:43.440 itself doesn't work.

00:26:45.520 It's that most of us are making some pretty fundamental mistakes.

00:26:49.620 Again, common wisdom.

00:26:51.040 Common wisdom says, you know, go sit on a mountaintop or go be in the lotus position on a beach.

00:26:56.620 And if you ask yourself these questions, the answers will come.

00:27:00.240 But as it turns out, there are so many things about ourselves that are basically unknowable.

00:27:06.300 This is very stressful for introspectors to say, wait a minute, if I don't ask myself the

00:27:11.200 question, I can't find the answer.

00:27:13.260 So I think that's a piece of it is we have to understand that a lot of our unconscious

00:27:18.680 thoughts and feelings and motives are not going to be available to us.

00:27:22.360 And the challenge then is if we don't know that and we ask ourselves a question, we find

00:27:27.960 an answer that feels true, but maybe isn't true.

00:27:31.620 You know, let's say I'm running a startup and I get in a blowout fight with one of my

00:27:38.380 partners and I ask myself, why did that happen?

00:27:41.960 What I might decide is, you know, maybe this person and I just don't know how to work together.

00:27:46.300 But maybe the actual reason was I didn't eat breakfast that morning and my blood sugar was

00:27:51.340 low and I wasn't in control of my emotions in the same way I would be otherwise.

00:27:55.720 So I think that's just a good example of where, you know, if we pounce on the first answer

00:27:59.720 that feels true, sometimes it can lead us away from the truth about ourselves.

00:28:04.540 That's just one example of the mistakes we can make when we're introspecting.

00:28:08.940 And how do you, what can you do to overcome those introspection mistakes so you can introspect

00:28:13.200 more effectively?

00:28:15.160 Thankfully, there's a small change we can make that will make introspection actually work

00:28:20.380 for us.

00:28:21.260 So if I go back to the example I gave, what we found of, you know, I get in a fight with

00:28:25.500 my business partner and I ask why, like, why did that happen?

00:28:30.440 Why do I feel this way?

00:28:32.020 Why is this other person always starting fights with me?

00:28:34.800 When we looked at what do highly self-aware people do differently, we found that they

00:28:40.540 almost never asked themselves why questions.

00:28:44.180 So they didn't ask those questions that I just rattled off.

00:28:47.440 They had a very small kind of change that completely altered the effectiveness of their

00:28:53.560 introspection.

00:28:54.620 And what we found is they tended to ask about 10 times as many what questions.

00:29:01.280 So the example in this situation would be, you know, what was going on in that conversation?

00:29:06.740 Or what part of that issue do I own?

00:29:11.040 Or what can I do differently in the future to prevent this?

00:29:15.140 And at first, to me, the difference was really subtle.

00:29:18.080 But as I started getting into it, what I discovered was, essentially, why questions make us more

00:29:24.320 emotional?

00:29:25.580 What questions keep us more level-headed?

00:29:28.840 Why questions tend to focus us on the problem and just kind of reliving it over and over?

00:29:34.640 What questions help us be more solution-focused?

00:29:37.900 Why questions tend to trap us in the past?

00:29:40.740 You know, we get stuck in just reliving it over and over.

00:29:43.780 And what questions help us move forward?

00:29:45.940 And so the tool that I teach all around the world is called What, Not, Why.

00:29:51.580 And it's been transformational, I think, for so many people, myself included, that if we

00:29:56.680 just make that small change, a lot of amazing things can happen.

00:30:01.320 No, I agree.

00:30:01.800 That insight was really powerful.

00:30:03.400 Because I've noticed that in my own life, whenever something bad happens, you typically

00:30:07.240 tend to go to why.

00:30:08.500 Why did this happen?

00:30:09.980 And you said you get emotional.

00:30:11.500 And usually the emotion, it's you go to a dark place.

00:30:13.780 It's like, well, you know, because of this happened a long time ago, and I've got this

00:30:17.680 problem, blah, blah, blah.

00:30:18.800 But like, if you just shift the questions to what, yeah, you're right.

00:30:22.100 It keeps you analytical and allows you to find a solution and move forward.

00:30:27.140 That's it.

00:30:27.700 And there's almost these introspective red herrings that we can get into if we ask why.

00:30:33.500 Like, a very common one usually ends up with, it was because my mother didn't love me.

00:30:40.220 Or, you know, it goes back into this childhood place almost that this might be controversial,

00:30:45.160 but I'm actually not sure how helpful that is.

00:30:47.980 If you are in focus therapy with a trained professional who's helping you work through

00:30:53.800 those issues, I think that's different.

00:30:55.320 But when it comes to just these everyday insights and understanding ourselves, as much as we

00:31:00.920 can focus on looking at the present, figuring out what we're going to do in the future.

00:31:06.500 And then, you know, sometimes we might look at the past to look at patterns, but I think

00:31:10.480 that helps us stay away.

00:31:12.320 You know, I call it the rabbit hole of rumination that you just described.

00:31:16.540 Yeah.

00:31:17.020 And this kind of leads to my next question, because you had this section about journaling,

00:31:19.980 because people often think of journaling as a really great tool to self-reflect and get

00:31:24.000 new insights about themselves.

00:31:25.600 And I read this chapter and I felt vindicated because, you know, early on in my life, you

00:31:30.580 know, when I was a teenager and like my early adulthood, I was like a religious journalist.

00:31:34.840 Like I just journaled all the time.

00:31:36.580 But then I think a couple of years ago, I just, like, it wasn't doing anything for me.

00:31:40.840 And I just realized it's like, I just ruminate over the same things.

00:31:44.280 Like I read through my journals from like years, and like the same issues come up over and

00:31:48.120 over again.

00:31:49.260 And I was like, nothing's getting better.

00:31:51.320 And it just made me feel bad.

00:31:52.600 And so I just stopped and I felt kind of bad because according to the internet, self-improvement

00:31:58.280 internet, you're supposed to journal.

00:31:59.540 It's the best thing ever.

00:32:01.160 And I just stopped.

00:32:01.760 I didn't really, it felt bad, but it made me feel better.

00:32:05.360 But you highlight research that journaling can actually not be that useful in gaining

00:32:09.860 new insights about yourself.

00:32:12.100 It's the same kind of example as with introspection.

00:32:15.880 If we do it the right way, it can be really effective.

00:32:18.980 But if we make mistakes, again, you know, if we trust what we read on the internet, sometimes

00:32:23.740 it can lead us astray.

00:32:25.000 So what we and others have found is journaling can be very helpful if, like you said, we don't

00:32:32.080 religiously write in it.

00:32:33.560 I know that's kind of mind-blowing.

00:32:35.120 It was mind-blowing for me, actually.

00:32:37.140 I have spent my life in perpetual guilt so that I didn't journal more.

00:32:40.840 But what our self-awareness kind of research subject taught us was they turned to journaling

00:32:47.260 when they were facing something important in their lives.

00:32:50.780 Maybe it was they were at a turning point or they were facing a big decision or something,

00:32:56.920 you know, really surprising had happened that they wanted to better understand.

00:33:00.340 But they sort of had an event-based model to journaling versus this daily habit.

00:33:06.040 I think there's a lot of power in that.

00:33:08.000 There are other pieces to this research that have shown that if we focus too much on emotion

00:33:13.800 or too much on kind of the logic of what happened, that can derail us.

00:33:19.480 And so as much as we can have a balanced view of journaling where we talk about how we feel

00:33:24.400 and kind of what was happening, that can be another way to make sure that we get insight

00:33:29.880 from it.

00:33:30.560 And, you know, because if you focus too much on emotions, what you said is going to happen,

00:33:34.720 you know, you kind of get sucked in in this negative way.

00:33:36.860 If you focus too much on the rational part of what happened, you know, here's what I

00:33:41.440 ate for lunch today, you're probably not going to get that same level of insight.

00:33:45.640 So it's like anything, you know, there's a middle ground.

00:33:49.020 There's a middle ground between what you write about and how often you write that's going

00:33:53.740 to give, I think, the most value.

00:33:55.700 Yeah, that's what I think I found.

00:33:56.840 Whenever I have a problem, I'll go to my journal just to write, start writing things.

00:34:00.640 And I try to avoid the emotion stuff and just focus on, well, here's the issue, here are

00:34:04.640 the problems, what are potential solutions?

00:34:07.000 And I find that helpful.

00:34:08.420 But I, yeah, the daily thing, I just, I don't care anymore.

00:34:11.340 Good for you.

00:34:12.000 No, I think that's the perfect approach.

00:34:13.680 So going back to this idea of the cult of self, you talk about how we share things on

00:34:18.440 the internet.

00:34:19.520 The internet, it's so, it exacerbates it.

00:34:22.180 It promotes the cult of self.

00:34:25.080 And I like this idea.

00:34:26.880 We had this, well, you're told on the internet, you got to develop your personal brand, share

00:34:30.360 about yourself because that's the only way you move forward in life, but you highlight

00:34:32.920 research that makes you feel terrible or it can make you feel terrible.

00:34:37.100 And it also just doesn't help you gain any more insight about yourself.

00:34:40.200 So you offer an alternative to social media sharing that can be more useful.

00:34:44.480 Talk us, walk us through that research.

00:34:46.500 This was another big surprise in our research.

00:34:49.100 We found that the most self-aware people, counter to everything I just said about the cult

00:34:54.520 of self, actually spent about 30% more time on social media than the average person.

00:35:02.020 And that was another moment where I was like, wait a minute, that makes no sense.

00:35:05.400 But then when we started looking at what they were posting, it was dramatically different

00:35:10.080 from most people.

00:35:11.240 So whereas, you know, like you said, social media almost teaches us to, other researchers

00:35:17.480 have called it to be a me former.

00:35:20.180 Here's what I ate for breakfast.

00:35:21.840 Here's this amazing award that I won.

00:35:23.800 It's my child's, you know, two and a half year birthday, all these things that are just

00:35:29.180 about me, me, me, but our highly self-aware people that we studied, they use social media

00:35:35.220 not as a me megaphone, but as an opportunity to enrich other people's lives.

00:35:41.200 So they gave us examples of, you know, I love to do nature photography.

00:35:44.940 And I, if I find something really beautiful, I post it because I want other people to feel

00:35:49.780 calm and grounded, or I read this hilarious article and I wanted to share it with others

00:35:55.000 because it would make them laugh.

00:35:56.740 So it's this idea that instead of thinking about what we're trying to accomplish for ourselves,

00:36:02.100 if we can flip the question and say, you know, first of all, why, what's the reason I'm posting

00:36:07.620 this?

00:36:07.940 What am I hoping to gain?

00:36:09.480 And is it making other people's lives better?

00:36:12.280 And I think, you know, if you're trying to build a brand, it's not about getting a hundred percent

00:36:17.520 there.

00:36:18.160 Like for me, I try to do about 10% posts talking about myself and 90% posts trying to make other

00:36:24.880 people, you know, feel better, do better, be better because we can't just completely neglect

00:36:29.980 the self-focus piece.

00:36:31.320 But I think most of our, we just have to change the percentages a little bit.

00:36:35.140 All right, so be an informer and not a me-former.

00:36:37.740 Yeah, be an informer.

00:36:38.540 Sorry, yes, exactly.

00:36:39.740 Thank you.

00:36:40.140 No, it's be an informer.

00:36:41.020 Informer, not a me-former.

00:36:41.920 Not a me-former.

00:36:43.100 So any other tools, I mean, so introspection, if you ask what, instead of why, that can help

00:36:48.380 you gain some internal self-awareness.

00:36:51.100 Any other tools you found effective that, you know, really self-aware people use to gain

00:36:55.520 internal self-awareness?

00:36:57.640 So we talked about what, not why, the daily question.

00:37:01.200 Another thing to think about, there's this obviously big social force on meditation.

00:37:08.300 And meditation is primarily about kind of understanding and noticing what we're thinking,

00:37:16.000 feeling, what's happening around us without judgment.

00:37:19.080 But the beauty of this for any fellow type A people who are listening to this is that we

00:37:24.960 don't have to meditate to be mindful, to get those same effects.

00:37:30.660 And, you know, there's sort of a lot to this, but I'm just going to give one example.

00:37:34.640 One way to practice mindfulness that isn't about mantras and meditation is something that I call

00:37:40.940 comparing and contrasting.

00:37:42.900 So comparing and contrasting is basically if you find yourself in a situation that feels familiar.

00:37:48.580 So the example I give in the book is actually, I spent about five years working in the corporate

00:37:53.680 world before I went out on my own about 10 years ago.

00:37:56.820 And I found that almost every time I had a new job, I would enjoy it for two years.

00:38:02.080 And then after two years, I would start to get bored and restless.

00:38:05.800 And one day, my husband actually pointed it out.

00:38:08.320 He said, have you noticed this pattern?

00:38:10.300 So what I started to do was compare and contrast.

00:38:13.760 You know, what is similar about each of those moments where I started to not, you know, not

00:38:20.220 like my job as much anymore.

00:38:21.720 And what I did is I looked back in my life and I thought, and I realized that every, every

00:38:25.820 time I had worked for someone else, there was a two year ticking time bomb.

00:38:30.460 But whenever I was working for myself, like when I was doing my own research or when I was

00:38:34.900 teaching at a university, when I was in grad school, I didn't feel that way.

00:38:38.880 So by comparing and contrasting, I was able to notice, you know, again, without judgment,

00:38:43.860 it just was what it was, that I might've been, that I know that I'm better off working for

00:38:49.120 myself.

00:38:49.860 And people don't think about mindfulness in that more general form.

00:38:54.760 And I think it's just really helpful for people that, you know, if you're meditating,

00:39:00.180 more power to you.

00:39:01.940 And there are more options if there's anybody who wants to increase their insight and be

00:39:06.480 mindful, but they don't want to meditate.

00:39:08.580 All right.

00:39:08.720 So we talked about gaining internal self-awareness.

00:39:11.440 Let's move to external self-awareness.

00:39:13.000 This is how people, an understanding of how people perceive us.

00:39:16.260 And this is where insight or self-awareness can get scary because it's always scary to

00:39:21.280 think about what other people think of us.

00:39:23.820 And also people don't like to give, people don't, people don't like to tell you what

00:39:28.640 they really think about you.

00:39:30.680 It's the idea of the white lie, right?

00:39:32.380 So what can we do?

00:39:33.680 What are some tools that you found to help people get constructive, useful, external self-awareness

00:39:41.240 without being destroyed emotionally in the process?

00:39:45.320 That's right.

00:39:46.220 You have to keep your mojo in the process.

00:39:48.800 What we found was, again, some surprising findings.

00:39:53.360 People who are highly self-aware did not, in fact, go to everybody they knew and ask for

00:39:59.620 feedback, they kept their circle very, very small.

00:40:04.000 Most people told us it was between three and five people that they regularly asked for feedback

00:40:10.040 from.

00:40:11.080 And these weren't just randomly selected people either.

00:40:13.820 There seemed to be two main criteria that they used to select this handful of people.

00:40:20.120 So the first criteria was, do I believe this person is on my side?

00:40:26.980 In other words, are they rooting for me?

00:40:28.700 Are they supporting me?

00:40:29.840 Or are they like a secret frenemy that is gunning against me?

00:40:33.620 And I think most of us know that intuitively.

00:40:35.880 If we feel in our gut that that person supports us, even if we're not incredibly close, that

00:40:41.420 usually checks that box.

00:40:43.100 The second thing is, do I feel like that person is going to tell me the truth?

00:40:47.880 I think if everybody thinks about your life and your work, there's a lot of people that

00:40:52.620 fit one of those criteria.

00:40:54.340 You know, for me, like my mom is the most supportive, wonderful person who's always on

00:40:58.460 my side, but is she going to be critical about an article I'm writing?

00:41:02.740 Maybe not.

00:41:03.720 Or there are people who just love to be critical, who don't actually want you to be successful.

00:41:08.840 So the magic of picking the right people to give us feedback is to choose these, I call

00:41:13.860 them loving critics.

00:41:15.020 And I think the beauty of this is, again, you don't have to spend all of your time finding

00:41:19.820 20 people that you rotate through.

00:41:21.980 It's a matter of saying, okay, who are, even to start with, two or three people that I can

00:41:27.040 go to and sort of formalize this relationship and say, you know, here's why I'm doing this.

00:41:31.960 Here's what I'm working on.

00:41:33.400 Would you be willing to let me talk to you for five minutes once a month to just get your

00:41:37.640 feedback?

00:41:38.480 So let's say, you know, going back to the example I gave earlier, somebody who wants to

00:41:42.240 be a better public speaker.

00:41:43.700 If I had my two or three loving critics, I would want them to be people who saw me speak

00:41:48.920 publicly.

00:41:49.600 And I would ask them once a month, very quickly, hey, as you know, I'm trying to be a better

00:41:53.700 public speaker.

00:41:54.940 First question, what feedback do you have for me from the last 30 days?

00:41:59.140 Second question is, what ideas do you have for me in the next 30 days?

00:42:03.420 And the reason the conversation is five minutes is what I would say is very simply, thank you.

00:42:10.660 I don't justify.

00:42:12.600 I don't tell them why they're wrong.

00:42:14.280 I don't give excuses.

00:42:15.740 I just say, thank you.

00:42:17.140 So I think that's really powerful is, again, being focused and strategic about how we're

00:42:21.780 getting that feedback.

00:42:23.280 The second tool I would offer is, this one's a little scarier.

00:42:27.160 I'd actually be curious what you think about it.

00:42:29.120 This is from a communications professor named Josh Meisner, and I've named it the Dinner

00:42:33.820 of Truth.

00:42:35.380 So basically what it entails is you find someone in your life or your work who you have a good

00:42:40.700 relationship with, who you want to have an even better relationship with.

00:42:44.600 You take them out to dinner virtually or in person, depending on your comfort level.

00:42:49.680 You ask them the very simple question, what do I do that is most annoying to you?

00:42:57.140 And then once again, just like the loving critics, you listen to the answer and you say,

00:43:02.820 thank you.

00:43:03.880 And what I've discovered, I would never share a tool like this with any listeners, readers,

00:43:10.280 clients, if I haven't done it multiple times myself.

00:43:13.200 And I have been shocked at actually what a positive experience every Dinner of Truth I've

00:43:18.880 had has been.

00:43:20.100 No, so I read that.

00:43:21.540 It reminded me, my wife and I have some friends.

00:43:24.380 And in their family, they have this tradition similar to this.

00:43:27.480 It's on your birthday.

00:43:29.320 The people in your family have to tell something they admire about you in that year of your

00:43:34.060 life.

00:43:34.560 And then also something you got to work on.

00:43:39.080 And I love that.

00:43:40.260 And some of the stories out of it are really hilarious because people learn things that

00:43:46.800 they finally sort of the truth is uncovered.

00:43:48.860 But I think it's similar to that dinner idea.

00:43:52.740 I love that idea, actually, because then it becomes a ritual.

00:43:55.700 Yeah, it is.

00:43:56.480 And I'm like, oh, it's your birthday.

00:43:56.800 It's time to do that.

00:43:57.620 It doesn't let you off the hook.

00:43:59.360 So, okay, this is great stuff.

00:44:00.380 So, this is where you can get controlled, very fine-tuned feedback about a specific thing

00:44:05.460 in your life.

00:44:06.080 But a lot of the feedback we get in life, external, that can give us external self-awareness,

00:44:10.600 it's like it's unsolicited.

00:44:11.680 It's just some random guy on the internet, or it could be a family member or a friend

00:44:17.120 just saying, hey, you need to do this.

00:44:19.940 And oftentimes, it's very jarring.

00:44:21.200 It can be really uncomfortable.

00:44:22.980 Any tips on how to handle that unsolicited, often hard feedback that we get throughout

00:44:28.380 our daily lives?

00:44:29.260 I think we have to be very careful, to be honest, with unsolicited feedback.

00:44:34.260 You never know someone's motives when they're doing that, unless you're 100% sure.

00:44:40.100 It's your best friend, and you know they love you.

00:44:42.800 But usually, it's not.

00:44:44.240 It's like you said, that random person on the internet or that random co-worker.

00:44:48.460 So, that would be my first piece of advice, is just be really careful that you don't accept

00:44:52.920 what they're saying as face value immediately.

00:44:56.200 The second piece of advice I'd give is actually probably counterintuitive, which is don't do

00:45:01.320 anything about it for a while.

00:45:02.840 Just put it in the back of your mind and let it be.

00:45:05.200 The urge we have to, you know, oh my gosh, I'm going to figure this out.

00:45:11.440 A lot of times, we're still reeling from this feedback, especially if it was difficult to

00:45:16.440 hear.

00:45:17.320 And even if we try to do that, it's not often going to result in what we think it will.

00:45:23.740 We might just get more upset, or we might feel depressed.

00:45:28.300 So, take a week or two.

00:45:30.200 Just put it in the back of your mind and say, okay, that person gave me that data point.

00:45:34.260 I'm going to look into it, but only when I'm ready.

00:45:37.220 And there's no magical timeline for this.

00:45:38.980 I think it's whenever you feel like, okay, it stings a little bit less, and now I'm going

00:45:43.420 to learn more about it.

00:45:45.300 The third piece of advice I'd give is, again, to go back to your loving critics.

00:45:49.780 You want to vet this feedback.

00:45:51.980 If this is a one-off person, obviously, you've got to decide how important that person is.

00:45:57.020 Like, if it's your boss, maybe you might want to take it, you know, a little more seriously.

00:46:01.360 But if you ask your loving critics, hey, I got this feedback.

00:46:05.280 You know, somebody says that I'm constantly interrupting people.

00:46:08.820 Have you experienced that?

00:46:10.880 Or is that something that you've seen as well?

00:46:13.660 And if you ask a couple of your loving critics, the beauty of this is you're getting a wider

00:46:18.660 sample of people.

00:46:20.040 So, it may be that they see it too, and then you can talk to them in a supportive, safe

00:46:25.340 way about, like, okay, let's figure this out.

00:46:27.320 What's this about?

00:46:28.380 What can I do differently?

00:46:29.240 Can you help me?

00:46:30.580 And then you're more empowered. 0.96

00:46:33.040 So, at the end of the day, it's kind of a stupid analogy, but we are the captain of 0.96

00:46:36.880 our feedback ship. 0.97

00:46:38.400 And we can't let other people climb on board and start steering it.

00:46:44.000 So, I think as much as we can do that and remember that we're in charge, we get to decide

00:46:47.720 what we do with this.

00:46:48.620 We might, you know, say, thank you very much for that feedback and never think about it

00:46:51.820 again.

00:46:52.500 Or that might lead to a transformational growth experience.

00:46:56.680 But the point is we're in charge.

00:46:58.360 Well, here's the question.

00:46:59.580 We've talked about internal and external self-awareness separately.

00:47:04.240 Are there practices that you found that are useful to sort of synthesize the two so you

00:47:08.120 can actually sort of develop a holistic picture of self-awareness?

00:47:11.580 Or is it something that just happens naturally as you're doing these, using these different

00:47:14.840 tools for internal and external self-awareness?

00:47:16.880 That's a great question.

00:47:18.940 I think it's more the second statement that if we build in daily practices that keep us

00:47:26.620 curious, that give us more information, some days we're going to have a conflict between

00:47:31.680 the way we see ourselves, the way other people see us.

00:47:34.240 Some days they're going to be additive, right?

00:47:36.260 You know, I think one classic example is when other people see a strength that we didn't know

00:47:42.060 we had, you know, and that's like, oh my God.

00:47:44.400 And then all of a sudden I'm more in charge and I can be more intentional about it.

00:47:48.580 And I know that they're seeing me in that way and that gives me confidence.

00:47:52.760 So I do think it is a little bit more of a give and take.

00:47:55.920 But the important thing is what are those habits you're going to put in place?

00:48:00.360 And my suggestion would be don't try to go big right out the door.

00:48:04.280 When I'm working with CEOs, as an example, we work on one behavioral goal at a time,

00:48:09.020 no more, no less. And the reason for that is if we, if we sort of over promise to ourselves,

00:48:15.000 we're not going to be able to sustain it. So, so if somebody is listening to this and you say,

00:48:20.840 I want to improve my, my external self-awareness, maybe the number one thing you do for the next

00:48:26.800 month or two is put those two to three loving critics in place. And once you've done that,

00:48:31.860 maybe it's time to think about, okay, do I want an internal self-awareness habit that I'm going

00:48:35.880 to build? But if you don't build them as habits, that's when we start to sort of get these fits

00:48:41.580 and starts of, oh, this is helpful, but you know, I haven't done it. Like my journal, I haven't written

00:48:46.280 in my journal for a year. That's probably not going to be as helpful.

00:48:49.300 Well, Tasha, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book

00:48:52.160 and the work that you're doing now?

00:48:53.580 So the first thing is I found that it's not about me, it's about everyone else. And so we put together a,

00:48:59.300 it's a great resource. If anybody's wondering how self-aware they are and they want more than

00:49:04.540 just their gut reaction, we put together something called the insight quiz, which is a 14 item subset

00:49:09.860 of our longer validated assessment. And what you do is it takes about five minutes. You fill it out

00:49:15.020 and then you put in the email address of someone else who knows you well, they fill it out. And once

00:49:19.980 the system has both of those types of information, you get a report with your high level self-awareness

00:49:25.280 internally and externally. And then a couple of things you can do starting now to improve if you

00:49:30.740 choose to. So if anybody wants to take that, you can find it at insight-quiz.com. I'm also at

00:49:37.100 tashayurik.com. We actually just launched a really exciting new virtual course called the Future Ready

00:49:42.200 Leader. So there's a lot of information there, but I am fortunately or unfortunately very findable

00:49:47.320 on the internet.

00:49:48.480 Fantastic. Well, Tasha Yurik, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:49:51.000 Thank you so much. Me too.

00:49:52.560 My guest today was Tasha Yurik. She's the author of the book Insight. It's available on amazon.com

00:49:56.220 and bookstores everywhere. You can find out more information about her work at our website,

00:49:59.440 tashayurik.com. Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash self-awareness,

00:50:04.020 where you can find links to resources, where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:50:13.860 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast. Check out our website at

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00:50:45.460 thank you for the continued support. Until next time, this is Brett McKay, reminding you not only to listen

00:50:49.000 to the AOM Podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

00:50:53.680 Thank you.

00:50:54.680 Thank you.

The Art of Manliness - June 22, 2022

How to Develop Greater Self-Awareness

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